<s> /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/ptreetagger/American.xml-src.tt /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/treetagger/American.xml-out.tt pos tagset built from model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par en lemma of the model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par - [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] We2PPwe 'll3MDwill hear4VVhear argument5NNargument this6DTthis morning7NNmorning in8INin Case9NPCase 17-171710CD@card@ ,11,, the12DTthe American13JJAmerican Legion14NNlegion versus15INversus the16DTthe American17JJAmerican Humanist18NNhumanist Association19NPAssociation ,20,, and21CCand Number22NPNumber 18-1823CD@card@ ,24,, the25DTthe consolidated26JJconsolidated case27NNcase ,28,, Maryland-National29NPMaryland-National Capital30NPCapital Park31NPPark and32CCand Planning33NPPlanning Commission34NPCommission versus35CCversus the36DTthe American37JJAmerican Humanist38NNhumanist Association39NPAssociation .40SENT. Mr41NPMr .42SENT. Katyal43NPKatyal .44SENT.

[MR. KATYAL]45LOC[MR. KATYAL] Thank46VVthank you47PPyou ,48,, Mr49NPMr .50SENT. Chief51NPChief Justice52NPJustice ,53,, and54CCand may55MDmay it56PPit please57VVplease the58DTthe Court59NPCourt :60:: There61EXthere are62VBPbe four63CDfour important64JJimportant facts65NNSfact about66INabout the67DTthe memorial68NNmemorial at69INat issue70NNissue ,71,, the72DTthe Peace73NPPeace Cross74NPCross ,75,, that76WDTthat explain77VVPexplain why78WRBwhy it79PPit should80MDshould not81RBnot be82VBbe dismembered83VVNdismember or84CCor destroyed85VVNdestroy .86SENT. First87RBfirst ,88,, families89NNSfamily and90CCand the91DTthe Legion92NNlegion built93VVDbuild it94PPit 9395CD@card@ years96NNSyear ago97RBago to98TOto commemorate99VVcommemorate 49100CD@card@ brave101JJbrave souls102NNSsoul who103WPwho gave104VVDgive their105PP$their lives106NNSlife in107INin World108NPWorld War109NPWar I110PPI ,111,, and112CCand it113PPit has114VHZhave stood115VVNstand for116INfor ...117:... since118INsince that119DTthat time120NNtime without121INwithout challenge122NNchallenge .123SENT. Second124RBsecond ,125,, it126PPit 's127VBZbe no128DTno ordinary129JJordinary cross130NNcross .131SENT. At132INat its133PP$its center134NNcenter ,135,, in136INin its137PP$its heart138NNheart ,139,, is140VBZbe the141DTthe American142JJAmerican Legion143NNlegion symbol144NNsymbol .145SENT. It146PPit 's147VBZbe gigantic148JJgigantic .149SENT. And150CCand at151INat the152DTthe base153NNbase in154INin four155CDfour capital156NNcapital ...157:... huge158JJhuge capital159NNcapital letters160NNSletter are161VBPbe words162NNSword :163:: Valor164NNvalor ,165,, Endurance166NNendurance ,167,, Courage168NNcourage ,169,, Devotion170NNdevotion .171SENT. Third172JJthird ,173,, not174RBnot a175DTa single176JJsingle word177NNword of178INof religious179JJreligious content180NNcontent appears181VVZappear anywhere182RBanywhere ;183:; rather184RBrather ,185,, the186DTthe base187NNbase has188VHZhave a189DTa nine-foot190NNnine-foot plaque191NNplaque listing192VVGlist the193DTthe 49194CD@card@ names195NNSname with196INwith an197DTan inscription198NNinscription to199TOto them200PPthem .201SENT. And202CCand ,203,, fourth204RBfourth ,205,, the206DTthe monument207NNmonument is208VBZbe situated209VVNsituate in210INin Veterans211NPSVeterans Memorial212NPMemorial Park213NPPark alongside214INalongside other215JJother war216NNwar memorials217NNSmemorial .218SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]219LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Do220VVPdo you221PPyou know222VVPknow how223WRBhow many224JJmany other225JJother parks226NNSpark are227VBPbe like228INlike this229DTthis one230CDone ?231SENT? I232PPI 've233VHPhave looked234VVNlook at235INat pictures236NNSpicture ,237,, and238CCand this239DTthis is240VBZbe an241DTan unusual242JJunusual park243NNpark because244INbecause there245EXthere 's246VBZbe major247JJmajor highways248NNShighway dividing249VVGdivide it250PPit up251RPup .252SENT. It253PPit 's254VBZbe almost255RBalmost as256RBas if257INif the258DTthe city259NNcity artificially260RBartificially designed261VVNdesign an262DTan area263NNarea that264WDTthat 's265VBZbe huge266JJhuge to267TOto encompass268VVencompass other269JJother plaques270NNSplaque and271CCand declared272VVDdeclare it273PPit a274DTa park275NNpark .276SENT. But277CCbut you278PPyou can279MDcan 't280RB't really281RBreally tell282VVtell that283IN/thatthat this284DTthis cross285NNcross is286VBZbe with287INwith anything288NNanything else289RBelse .290SENT. There291EXthere 's292VBZbe three293CDthree or294CCor four295CDfour ...296:... six-lane297NNsix-lane highway298NNhighway on299INon one300CDone side301NNside .302SENT. There303EXthere 's304VBZbe another305DTanother highway306NNhighway on307INon the308DTthe other309JJother .310SENT. I311PPI 'm312VBPbe told313VVNtell you314PPyou can315MDcan 't316RB't even317RBeven get318VVget off319RPoff the320DTthe highways321NNShighway to322TOto walk323VVwalk to324TOto this325DTthis cross326NNcross .327SENT. So328RBso ...329:... [MR. KATYAL]330LOC[MR. KATYAL] Oh331UHoh ,332,, no333UHno ,334,, you335PPyou actually336RBactually can337MDcan .338SENT. I339PPI 've340VHPhave done341VVNdo it342PPit .343SENT. There344EXthere 's345VBZbe parking346NNparking and347CCand so348RBso on349INon .350SENT. So351INso I352PPI ...353:... I354PPI disagree355VVPdisagree with356INwith that357DTthat representation358NNrepresentation .359SENT. Veterans360NPSVeterans Memorial361NPMemorial Park362NPPark has363VHZhave been364VBNbe there365RBthere for366INfor a367DTa long368JJlong time369NNtime ,370,, the371DTthe record372NNrecord shows373VVZshow at374INat least375JJSleast since376INsince 1983377CD@card@ .378SENT. So379RBso this380DTthis is381VBZbe n't382RBn't like383INlike McCreary384NPMcCreary ,385,, in386INin which387WDTwhich there388EXthere 's389VBZbe some390DTsome pretextual391JJpretextual stuff392NNstuff added393VVDadd later394RBRlater ...395:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]396LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All397DTall right398NNright .399SENT. [MR. KATYAL]400LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...401:... Justice402NPJustice Sotomayor403NPSotomayor .404SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]405LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] And406CCand you407PPyou said408VVDsay "409``" dismember410VVdismember or411CCor destroy412VVdestroy .413SENT. "414``" You415PPyou can416MDcan move417VVmove it418PPit .419SENT. [MR. KATYAL]420LOC[MR. KATYAL] You421PPyou could422MDcould ...423:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]424LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You425PPyou could426MDcould transfer427VVtransfer the428DTthe land429NNland to430TOto private431JJprivate entities432NNSentity ,433,, correct434JJcorrect ?435SENT? [MR. KATYAL]436LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well437UHwell ,438,, you439PPyou could440MDcould ...441:... those442DTthose ...443:... those444DTthose would445MDwould be446VBbe hypothetically447RBhypothetically possible448JJpossible ,449,, but450CCbut the451DTthe record452NNrecord shows453VVZshow that454IN/thatthat both455DTboth ...456:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]457LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So458RBso is459VBZbe destruction460NNdestruction and461CCand ...462:... and463CCand anything464NNanything else465RBelse .466SENT. [MR. KATYAL]467LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well468UHwell ...469:... well470RBwell ,471,, Justice472NPJustice Sotomayor473NPSotomayor ,474,, the475DTthe record476NNrecord ...477:... this478DTthis is479VBZbe at480INat Court481NPCourt of482INof Appeals483NPAppeals Appendix484NPAppendix Joint485NPJoint ...486:... Joint487JJjoint Appendix488NPAppendix 623489CD@card@ and490CCand 1585491CD@card@ ...492:... say493VVPsay if494INif you495PPyou move496VVPmove it497PPit ,498,, because499INbecause of500INof the501DTthe cracks502NNScrack in503INin this504DTthis cross505NNcross ,506,, it507PPit very508RBvery well509RBwell may510MDmay be511VBbe destroyed512VVNdestroy .513SENT. And514CCand as515RBas far516RBfar ...517:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]518LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Then519RBthen give520VVgive it521PPit back522RBback to523TOto the524DTthe Legion525NNlegion .526SENT. [MR. KATYAL]527LOC[MR. KATYAL] And528CCand give529VVgive it530PPit back531RBback to532TOto the533DTthe Legion534NNlegion .535SENT. As536INas our537PP$our ...538:... as539INas our540PP$our petition541NNpetition reply542NNreply brief543NNbrief at544INat page545NNpage 12546CD@card@ points547NNSpoint out548RBout ,549,, they550PPthey have551VHPhave an552DTan e-mail553NPe-mail in554INin this555DTthis case556NNcase saying557VVGsay they558PPthey know559VVPknow that560IN/thatthat Maryland561NPMaryland can562MDcan 't563RB't do564VVPdo that565IN/thatthat because566INbecause of567INof the568DTthe traffic569NNtraffic concerns570NNSconcern .571SENT. They572PPthey can573MDcan 't574RB't give575VVgive it576PPit to577TOto a578DTa private579JJprivate entity580NNentity .581SENT. The582DTthe Maryland583NPMaryland brief584NNbrief before585INbefore this586DTthis Court587NPCourt also588RBalso makes589VVZmake the590DTthe same591JJsame claim592NNclaim .593SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]594LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] They595PPthey could596MDcould ...597:... they598PPthey could599MDcould speak600VVspeak to601TOto that602DTthat .603SENT. But604CCbut putting605VVGput that606IN/thatthat aside607RBaside ,608,, are609VBPbe you610PPyou relying611VVGrely on612INon the613DTthe fact614NNfact that615WDTthat ...616:... at617INat all618DTall ,619,, that620WDTthat ...621:... at622INat least623JJSleast one624CDone brief625JJbrief claims626NNSclaim that627IN/thatthat all628DTall 49629CD@card@ soldiers630NNSsoldier named631VVNname on632INon this633DTthis plaque634NNplaque or635CCor for636INfor whom637WPwhom this638DTthis plaque639NNplaque were640VBDbe were641VBDbe Christian642JJChristian ?643SENT? [MR. KATYAL]644LOC[MR. KATYAL] Not645RBnot at646INat all647DTall ,648,, Your649PP$your Honor650NPHonor .651SENT. We652PPwe think653VVPthink this654DTthis memorial655NNmemorial ,656,, from657INfrom start658NNstart to659TOto finish660VVfinish ,661,, has662VHZhave been663VBNbe about664RBabout honoring665VVGhonor those666DTthose 49667CD@card@ ,668,, plus669CCplus all670DTall World671NPWorld War672NPWar I673NNI veterans674NNSveteran .675SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]676LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Is677VBZbe it678PPit ...679:... are680VBPbe you681PPyou just682RBjust grandfathering683VVGgrandfather this684DTthis ,685,, or686CCor are687VBPbe you688PPyou claiming689VVGclaim that690DTthat today691NNtoday ,692,, let693VVNlet 's694POS's say695NNsay ,696,, for697INfor the698DTthe Vietnam699NPVietnam War700NPWar ,701,, that702IN/thatthat any703DTany government704NNgovernment ,705,, local706JJlocal or707CCor state708NNstate ,709,, could710MDcould build711VVbuild a712DTa cross713NNcross 40714CD@card@ feet715NNSfoot high716JJhigh ,717,, not718RBnot put719VVDput any720DTany emblem721NNemblem on722INon or723CCor some724DTsome sectarian725JJsectarian emblem726NNemblem ,727,, and728CCand say729VVPsay we730PPwe are731VBPbe dedicating732VVGdedicate this733DTthis to734TOto all735PDTall the736DTthe soldiers737NNSsoldier who738WPwho have739VHPhave died740VVNdie in741INin the742DTthe Vietnam743NPVietnam War744NPWar ?745SENT? [MR. KATYAL]746LOC[MR. KATYAL] So747INso we748PPwe 're749VBPbe not750RBnot at751INat all752DTall saying753NNsaying that754IN/thatthat ,755,, grandfathering756VVGgrandfather or757CCor anything758NNanything like759INlike that760DTthat .761SENT. This762DTthis case763NNcase ,764,, because765INbecause of766INof its767PP$its 93-year768NN93-year tradition769NNtradition ,770,, is771VBZbe an772DTan easy773JJeasy one774CDone and775CCand for776INfor reasons777NNSreason Justice778NPJustice Breyer779NPBreyer said780VVDsay in781INin Van782NPVan Orden783NPOrden ...784:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]785LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No786NPNo ,787,, no788RBno ,789,, but790CCbut answer791VVanswer my792PP$my question793NNquestion .794SENT. What795WPWhat is796VBZbe the797DTthe tradition798NNtradition ?799SENT? Is800VBZbe the801DTthe tradition802NNtradition that803IN/thatthat ,804,, in805INin World806NPWorld War807NPWar II808NPII ,809,, a810DTa cross811NNcross was812VBDbe used813VVNuse ,814,, or815CCor is816VBZbe the817DTthe tradition818NNtradition that819IN/thatthat the820DTthe government821NNgovernment can822MDcan put823VVput up824RPup sectarian825JJsectarian symbols826NNSsymbol ,827,, like828INlike crosses829NNScrosse or830CCor a831DTa picture832NNpicture of833INof Jesus834NPJesus Christ835NPChrist ,836,, in837INin honor838NNhonor of839INof anyone840NNanyone because841INbecause that842WDTthat 's843VBZbe within844INwithin the845DTthe nation846NNnation 's847POS's tradition848NNtradition ?849SENT? [MR. KATYAL]850LOC[MR. KATYAL] So851RBso ,852,, Justice853NPJustice Sotomayor854NPSotomayor ,855,, I856PPI 'll857MDwill make858VVmake two859CDtwo different860JJdifferent arguments861NNSargument .862SENT. One863PPone is864VBZbe with865INwith respect866NNrespect to867TOto this868DTthis cross869NNcross ,870,, which871WDTwhich has872VHZhave stood873VVNstand for874INfor 93875CD@card@ years876NNSyear ,877,, 86878CD@card@ of879INof them880PPthem without881INwithout challenge882NNchallenge ,883,, and884CCand for885INfor reasons886NNSreason Justice887NPJustice Breyer888NPBreyer 's889POS's opinion890NNopinion in891INin Van892NPVan Orden893NPOrden said894VVDsay ...895:... and896CCand the897DTthe Buono898NPBuono plurality899NNplurality ...900:... that901WDTthat would902MDwould make903VVmake this904DTthis cross905NNcross constitutional906JJconstitutional .907SENT. Now908RBnow your909PP$your question910NNquestion is911VBZbe ,912,, well913UHwell ,914,, what915WPwhat about916INabout this917DTthis tradition918NNtradition of919INof crosses920NNScrosse in921INin general922NNgeneral ?923SENT? And924CCand it925PPit 's926VBZbe true927JJtrue we928PPwe have929VHPhave a930DTa second931JJsecond argument932NNargument about933INabout Town934NPTown of935INof Greece936NPGreece ,937,, which938WDTwhich says939VVZsay that940IN/thatthat ,941,, if942INif there943EXthere is944VBZbe a945DTa long946JJlong tradition947NNtradition of948INof the949DTthe type950NNtype of951INof displays952NNSdisplay ,953,, that954WDTthat would955MDwould make956VVmake it957PPit constitutional958JJconstitutional .959SENT. Notably960RBnotably ,961,, however962RBhowever ,963,, it964PPit does965VVZdo n't966RBn't make967VVmake your968PP$your hypothetical969JJhypothetical constitutional970NNconstitutional .971SENT. Your972PP$your hypothetical973JJhypothetical 's974VBZbe actually975RBactually a976DTa real977JJreal case978NNcase .979SENT. Lake980NPLake County981NPCounty ,982,, the983DTthe Seventh984NPSeventh Circuit985NPCircuit case986NNcase in987INin 1993988CD@card@ ,989,, is990VBZbe a991DTa huge992JJhuge cross993NNcross with994INwith Jesus995NPJesus Christ996NPChrist nailed997VVDnail in998INin the999DTthe center1000NNcenter of1001INof it1002PPit ,1003,, in1004INin a1005DTa public1006JJpublic park1007NNpark .1008SENT. It1009PPit 's1010VHZhave been1011VBNbe there1012RBthere since1013INsince 19551014CD@card@ .1015SENT. And1016CCand it1017PPit was1018VBDbe protested1019VVNprotest right1020RBright then1021RBthen .1022SENT. And1023CCand the1024DTthe Seventh1025NPSeventh Circuit1026NPCircuit said1027VVDsay that1028DTthat is1029VBZbe unconstitutional1030JJunconstitutional .1031SENT. And1032CCand we1033PPwe agree1034VVPagree .1035SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1036LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] What1037WPWhat would1038MDwould happen1039VVhappen if1040INif all1041PDTall the1042DTthe facts1043NNSfact that1044IN/thatthat you1045PPyou gave1046VVDgive were1047VBDbe the1048DTthe same1049JJsame ,1050,, except1051INexcept for1052INfor the1053DTthe 931054CD@card@ years1055NNSyear ?1056SENT? In1057INin other1058JJother words1059NNSword ,1060,, a1061DTa community1062NNcommunity decides1063VVZdecide ,1064,, for1065INfor whatever1066WDTwhatever reason1067NNreason ,1068,, we1069PPwe do1070VVPdo n't1071RBn't have1072VHhave a1073DTa World1074NPWorld War1075NPWar I1076NNI memorial1077NNmemorial ;1078:; we1079PPwe want1080VVPwant to1081TOto put1082VVput up1083RPup exactly1084RBexactly this1085DTthis to1086TOto memorialize1087VVmemorialize the1088DTthe ...1089:... the1090DTthe ...1091:... the1092DTthe war1093NNwar dead1094JJdead from1095INfrom ...1096:... from1097INfrom World1098NPWorld War1099NPWar I1100PPI ,1101,, but1102CCbut now1103RBnow .1104SENT. [MR. KATYAL]1105LOC[MR. KATYAL] Right1106RBright .1107SENT. So1108RBso ,1109,, if1110INif it1111PPit 's1112VBZbe a1113DTa war1114NNwar memorial1115NNmemorial ,1116,, we1117PPwe do1118VVPdo think1119VVthink that1120IN/thatthat it1121PPit would1122MDwould be1123VBbe constitutional1124JJconstitutional .1125SENT. We1126PPwe think1127VVPthink that1128IN/thatthat there1129EXthere might1130MDmight be1131VBbe some1132DTsome skepticism1133NNskepticism .1134SENT. You1135PPyou 'd1136MDwould just1137RBjust want1138VVwant to1139TOto make1140VVmake sure1141JJsure that1142IN/thatthat it1143PPit was1144VBDbe n't1145RBn't a1146DTa pretext1147NNpretext and1148CCand it1149PPit did1150VVDdo n't1151RBn't look1152VVlook like1153INlike that1154DTthat cross1155NNcross as1156INas I1157PPI was1158VBDbe describing1159VVGdescribe about1160INabout Lake1161NPLake County1162NPCounty .1163SENT. But1164CCbut ,1165,, if1166INif it1167PPit was1168VBDbe a1169DTa cross1170NNcross like1171INlike this1172DTthis one1173CDone ,1174,, same1175JJsame facts1176NNSfact ,1177,, Justice1178NPJustice Kagan1179NPKagan ,1180,, we1181PPwe do1182VVPdo think1183VVthink that1184WDTthat would1185MDwould be1186VBbe constitutional1187JJconstitutional .1188SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1189LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And1190CCand ...1191:... and1192CCand does1193VVZdo that1194DTthat answer1195NNanswer apply1196VVapply not1197RBnot just1198RBjust to1199TOto memorials1200NNSmemorial for1201INfor World1202NPWorld War1203NPWar I1204NNI soldiers1205NNSsoldier but1206CCbut to1207TOto memorials1208NNSmemorial for1209INfor soldiers1210NNSsoldier from1211INfrom any1212DTany armed1213JJarmed conflict1214NNconflict ?1215SENT? [MR. KATYAL]1216LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well1217UHwell ,1218,, I1219PPI think1220VVPthink that1221DTthat ...1222:... I1223PPI think1224VVPthink that1225IN/thatthat it1226PPit probably1227RBprobably would1228MDwould ,1229,, that1230IN/thatthat there1231EXthere 's1232VBZbe a1233DTa tradition1234NNtradition of1235INof using1236VVGuse these1237DTthese crosses1238NNScrosse with1239INwith respect1240NNrespect to1241TOto any1242DTany conflict1243NNconflict ,1244,, but1245CCbut it1246PPit would1247MDwould have1248VHhave to1249TOto look1250VVlook like1251INlike this1252DTthis one1253CDone .1254SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1255LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But1256CCbut ,1257,, Mr1258NPMr .1259SENT. Katyal1260NPKatyal ,1261,, what1262WPwhat about1263RBabout ,1264,, not1265RBnot a1266DTa World1267NPWorld ...1268:... World1269NPWorld War1270NPWar or1271CCor any1272DTany war1273NNwar memorial1274NNmemorial ,1275,, but1276CCbut a1277DTa memorial1278NNmemorial to1279TOto a1280DTa tragic1281JJtragic event1282NNevent ,1283,, let1284VVNlet 's1285POS's say1286NNsay ,1287,, a1288DTa mass1289JJmass shooting1290NNshooting at1291INat a1292DTa school1293NNschool ?1294SENT? Could1295MDcould the1296DTthe local1297JJlocal community1298NNcommunity then1299RBthen decide1300VVPdecide it1301PPit wants1302VVZwant to1303TOto put1304VVput up1305RPup a1306DTa cross1307NNcross in1308INin front1309NNfront of1310INof that1311DTthat school1312NNschool to1313TOto honor1314VVhonor the1315DTthe children1316NNSchild and1317CCand the1318DTthe teachers1319NNSteacher who1320WPwho died1321VVDdie in1322INin the1323DTthe mass1324JJmass shooting1325NNshooting ?1326SENT? [MR. KATYAL]1327LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well1328UHwell ,1329,, I1330PPI think1331VVPthink the1332DTthe test1333NNtest ,1334,, Justice1335NPJustice Ginsburg1336NPGinsburg ,1337,, would1338MDwould be1339VBbe whether1340INwhether there1341EXthere is1342VBZbe a1343DTa independent1344JJindependent secular1345JJsecular purpose1346NNpurpose .1347SENT. So1348RBso take1349VVtake a1350DTa real1351JJreal case1352NNcase ,1353,, like1354INlike the1355DTthe one1356CDone that1357WDTthat came1358VVDcome out1359RPout of1360INof the1361DTthe World1362NPWorld Trade1363NPTrade Centers1364NPSCenters ,1365,, the1366DTthe Second1367NPSecond Circuit1368NPCircuit case1369NNcase from1370INfrom 20141371CD@card@ ,1372,, where1373WRBwhere two1374CDtwo steel1375NNsteel beams1376NNSbeam were1377VBDbe discovered1378VVNdiscover in1379INin the1380DTthe rubble1381NNrubble ,1382,, and1383CCand they1384PPthey were1385VBDbe put1386VVNput up1387RPup in1388INin the1389DTthe shape1390NNshape ...1391:... they1392PPthey were1393VBDbe put1394VVNput up1395RPup in1396INin the1397DTthe shape1398NNshape of1399INof a1400DTa cross1401NNcross .1402SENT. Now1403RBnow ,1404,, if1405INif that1406WDTthat were1407VBDbe in1408INin a1409DTa public1410JJpublic park1411NNpark ,1412,, I1413PPI think1414VVPthink that1415IN/thatthat that1416WDTthat would1417MDwould be1418VBbe permissible1419JJpermissible because1420INbecause it1421PPit has1422VHZhave independent1423JJindependent historic1424JJhistoric value1425NNvalue and1426CCand independent1427JJindependent secular1428JJsecular value1429NNvalue ,1430,, showing1431VVGshow values1432NNSvalue of1433INof resilience1434NNresilience and1435CCand courage1436NNcourage .1437SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1438LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But1439CCbut my1440PP$my ...1441:... my1442PP$my example1443NNexample was1444VBDbe nothing1445NNnothing that1446WDTthat was1447VBDbe found1448VVNfind in1449INin the1450DTthe rubble1451NNrubble .1452SENT. It1453PPit 's1454VBZbe just1455RBjust the1456DTthe local1457JJlocal community1458NNcommunity decides1459VVZdecide it1460PPit wants1461VVZwant to1462TOto honor1463VVhonor the1464DTthe dead1465NNdead in1466INin this1467DTthis terrible1468JJterrible tragedy1469NNtragedy .1470SENT. [MR. KATYAL]1471LOC[MR. KATYAL] Right1472NPRight .1473SENT. The1474DTthe test1475NNtest would1476MDwould be1477VBbe whether1478INwhether or1479CCor not1480RBnot there1481EXthere 's1482VBZbe an1483DTan independent1484JJindependent secular1485JJsecular purpose1486NNpurpose .1487SENT. I1488PPI do1489VVPdo n't1490RBn't think1491VVthink you1492PPyou could1493MDcould probably1494RBprobably harken1495VVharken back1496RBback to1497TOto the1498DTthe same1499JJsame tradition1500NNtradition that1501IN/thatthat you1502PPyou could1503MDcould with1504INwith respect1505NNrespect to1506TOto ,1507,, for1508INfor example1509NNexample ,1510,, these1511DTthese World1512NPWorld War1513NPWar I1514PPI crosses1515VVZcross ,1516,, Fields1517NPFields of1518INof Flanders1519NPFlanders ...1520:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1521LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] The1522DTthe purpose1523NNpurpose ...1524:... the1525DTthe purpose1526NNpurpose is1527VBZbe to1528TOto honor1529VVhonor those1530DTthose who1531WPwho died1532VVDdie in1533INin the1534DTthe tragedy1535NNtragedy .1536SENT. [MR. KATYAL]1537LOC[MR. KATYAL] Yes1538NPYes .1539SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1540LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] So1541RBso ...1542:... yeah1543RByeah ,1544,, so1545RBso ,1546,, no1547RBno ,1548,, could1549MDcould you1550PPyou ...1551:... [MR. KATYAL]1552LOC[MR. KATYAL] I1553PPI do1554VVPdo n't1555RBn't think1556VVthink purpose1557NNpurpose is1558VBZbe what1559WPwhat this1560DTthis Court1561NPCourt 's1562POS's decisions1563NNSdecision turn1564VVPturn on1565INon .1566SENT. Van1567NPVan Orden1568NPOrden ,1569,, the1570DTthe Buono1571NPBuono plurality1572NNplurality say1573VVPsay that1574IN/thatthat it1575PPit 's1576VBZbe ...1577:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1578LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well1579UHwell ,1580,, I1581PPI 'm1582VBPbe sorry1583JJsorry ,1584,, but1585CCbut I1586PPI ...1587:... [MR. KATYAL]1588LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...1589:... objective1590JJobjective meaning1591NNmeaning .1592SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1593LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...1594:... I1595PPI thought1596VVDthink you1597PPyou just1598RBjust said1599VVDsay that1600IN/thatthat the1601DTthe test1602NNtest is1603VBZbe whether1604INwhether there1605EXthere 's1606VBZbe a1607DTa secular1608JJsecular purpose1609NNpurpose .1610SENT. [MR. KATYAL]1611LOC[MR. KATYAL] I1612PPI meant1613VVDmean objective1614JJobjective meaning1615NNmeaning ,1616,, I1617PPI 'm1618VBPbe sorry1619JJsorry ,1620,, Mr1621NPMr .1622SENT. Chief1623NPChief Justice1624NPJustice .1625SENT. The1626DTthe test1627NNtest is1628VBZbe ,1629,, as1630RBas ...1631:... as1632INas your1633PP$your opinion1634NNopinion that1635IN/thatthat you1636PPyou joined1637VVDjoin in1638INin Buono1639NPBuono said1640VVDsay ,1641,, what1642WPwhat is1643VBZbe the1644DTthe objective1645JJobjective meaning1646NNmeaning of1647INof this1648DTthis display1649NNdisplay ?1650SENT? Now1651RBnow sometimes1652RBsometimes purpose1653NNpurpose is1654VBZbe relevant1655JJrelevant to1656TOto that1657DTthat ,1658,, and1659CCand the1660DTthe Court1661NPCourt has1662VHZhave looked1663VVNlook to1664TOto it1665PPit ,1666,, but1667CCbut the1668DTthe test1669NNtest is1670VBZbe always1671RBalways that1672RBthat .1673SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1674LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well1675UHWell ,1676,, would1677MDwould that1678RBthat be1679VBbe ...1680:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1681LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] So1682INso it1683PPit would1684MDwould be1685VBbe okay1686JJokay then1687RBthen ...1688:... it1689PPit would1690MDwould be1691VBbe okay1692JJokay to1693TOto put1694VVput up1695RPup in1696INin front1697NNfront of1698INof the1699DTthe public1700JJpublic school1701NNschool ...1702:... [MR. KATYAL]1703LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well1704UHwell ,1705,, I1706PPI think1707VVPthink we1708PPwe 'd1709MDwould need1710VVneed to1711TOto know1712VVknow more1713JJRmore about1714INabout the1715DTthe facts1716NNSfact of1717INof that1718DTthat particular1719JJparticular hypothetical1720JJhypothetical ,1721,, but1722CCbut ...1723:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1724LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well1725UHWell ,1726,, here1727RBhere are1728VBPbe some1729DTsome facts1730NNSfact ,1731,, Mr1732NPMr .1733SENT. Katyal1734NPKatyal ,1735,, from1736INfrom that1737WDTthat hypothetical1738JJhypothetical .1739SENT. And1740CCand you1741PPyou can1742MDcan understand1743VVunderstand how1744WRBhow something1745NNsomething like1746INlike this1747DTthis can1748MDcan come1749VVcome about1750RBabout ,1751,, that1752IN/thatthat people1753NNSpeople want1754VVPwant to1755TOto memorialize1756VVmemorialize the1757DTthe dead1758JJdead ,1759,, and1760CCand in1761INin one1762CDone religious1763JJreligious tradition1764NNtradition ,1765,, and1766CCand a1767DTa dominant1768JJdominant one1769CDone in1770INin many1771JJmany ,1772,, many1773JJmany communities1774NNScommunity of1775INof this1776DTthis country1777NNcountry ,1778,, the1779DTthe preeminent1780JJpreeminent symbol1781NNsymbol to1782TOto memorialize1783VVmemorialize the1784DTthe dead1785NNdead is1786VBZbe the1787DTthe Latin1788JJLatin cross1789NNcross .1790SENT. And1791CCand ...1792:... and1793CCand so1794RBso they1795PPthey gravitate1796VVPgravitate toward1797INtoward that1798DTthat symbol1799NNsymbol as1800INas a1801DTa way1802NNway to1803TOto memorialize1804VVmemorialize the1805DTthe dead1806NNdead .1807SENT. But1808CCbut ,1809,, at1810INat the1811DTthe same1812JJsame time1813NNtime ,1814,, for1815INfor members1816NNSmember of1817INof other1818JJother faiths1819NNSfaith ,1820,, that1821DTthat symbol1822NNsymbol is1823VBZbe not1824RBnot a1825DTa way1826NNway to1827TOto memorialize1828VVmemorialize the1829DTthe dead1830JJdead and1831CCand does1832VVZdo not1833RBnot have1834VHhave that1835DTthat meaning1836NNmeaning .1837SENT. So1838RBso I1839PPI think1840VVPthink that1841IN/thatthat the1842DTthe question1843NNquestion that1844IN/thatthat Justice1845NPJustice Ginsburg1846NPGinsburg is1847VBZbe asking1848VVGask ,1849,, you1850PPyou know1851VVPknow ,1852,, for1853INfor many1854JJmany people1855NNSpeople ,1856,, this1857DTthis is1858VBZbe a1859DTa very1860RBvery natural1861JJnatural way1862NNway to1863TOto do1864VVdo exactly1865RBexactly what1866WPwhat they1867PPthey want1868VVPwant to1869TOto do1870VVdo .1871SENT. For1872INfor others1873NNSother ,1874,, not1875RBnot .1876SENT. [MR. KATYAL]1877LOC[MR. KATYAL] And1878CCand ,1879,, Justice1880NPJustice Kagan1881NPKagan ,1882,, if1883INif it1884PPit does1885VVZdo have1886VHPhave the1887DTthe same1888JJsame hallmarks1889NNShallmark as1890INas this1891DTthis type1892NNtype of1893INof cross1894NNcross ,1895,, we1896PPwe think1897VVPthink that1898IN/thatthat that1899WDTthat would1900MDwould be1901VBbe permissible1902JJpermissible ,1903,, that1904WDTthat is1905VBZbe ...1906:... and1907CCand I1908PPI think1909VVPthink that1910DTthat 's1911VBZbe a1912DTa natural1913JJnatural consequence1914NNconsequence of1915INof what1916WPwhat this1917DTthis Court1918NPCourt 's1919POS's already1920RBalready said1921VVDsay in1922INin Buono1923NPBuono in1924INin the1925DTthe plurality1926NNplurality and1927CCand the1928DTthe Van1929NPVan Orden1930NPOrden opinion1931NNopinion .1932SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1933LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I1934PPI thought1935VVDthink ...1936:... I1937PPI read1938VVPread your1939PP$your brief1940NNbrief to1941TOto put1942VVput a1943DTa lot1944NNlot of1945INof weight1946NNweight on1947INon the1948DTthe fact1949NNfact that1950IN/thatthat the1951DTthe cross1952NNcross here1953RBhere has1954VHZhave more1955JJRmore than1956INthan a1957DTa sectarian1958JJsectarian meaning1959NNmeaning ,1960,, because1961RBbecause ,1962,, as1963INas your1964PP$your history1965NNhistory sets1966NNSset forth1967RBforth ,1968,, the1969DTthe cross1970NNcross was1971VBDbe a1972DTa symbol1973NNsymbol throughout1974INthroughout the1975DTthe battlefields1976NNSbattlefield in1977INin World1978NPWorld War1979NPWar I1980PPI .1981SENT. Now1982RBnow I1983PPI 'm1984VBPbe wondering1985VVGwonder why1986WRBwhy that1987DTthat does1988VVZdo n't1989RBn't limit1990VVlimit your1991PP$your argument1992NNargument in1993INin ...1994:... so1995RBso that1996IN/thatthat ,1997,, in1998INin such1999PDTsuch a2000DTa case2001NNcase ,2002,, as2003INas Justice2004NPJustice Kagan2005NPKagan hypothesized2006VVDhypothesize ,2007,, you2008PPyou would2009MDwould not2010RBnot accept2011VVaccept that2012DTthat ?2013SENT? [MR. KATYAL]2014LOC[MR. KATYAL] Mr2015NPMr .2016SENT. Chief2017NPChief Justice2018NPJustice ,2019,, we2020PPwe certainly2021RBcertainly agree2022VVPagree that2023IN/thatthat all2024DTall of2025INof that2026DTthat tradition2027NNtradition ,2028,, the2029DTthe Fields2030NPSFields of2031INof Flanders2032NPFlanders and2033CCand stuff2034NNstuff ,2035,, make2036VVPmake this2037DTthis a2038DTa very2039RBvery easy2040JJeasy case2041NNcase .2042SENT. And2043CCand we2044PPwe do2045VVPdo n't2046RBn't think2047VVthink you2048PPyou need2049VVPneed to2050TOto go2051VVgo further2052JJRfurther than2053INthan that2054DTthat .2055SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2056LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] In2057INin the2058DTthe Field2059NPField of2060INof Flanders2061NPFlanders ,2062,, are2063VBPbe all2064RBall of2065INof the2066DTthe graves2067NNSgrave marked2068VVNmark by2069INby crosses2070NNScrosse ?2071SENT? Are2072VBPbe there2073RBthere not2074RBnot graves2075VVZgrave marked2076VVNmark by2077INby Stars2078NPStars of2079INof David2080NPDavid ?2081SENT? [MR. KATYAL]2082LOC[MR. KATYAL] There2083EXthere certainly2084RBcertainly are2085VBPbe some2086DTsome .2087SENT. But2088CCbut I2089PPI think2090VVPthink the2091DTthe dominant2092JJdominant image2093NNimage of2094INof the2095DTthe time2096NNtime ,2097,, everything2098NNeverything from2099INfrom that2100DTthat poem2101NNpoem to2102TOto art2103NNart ,2104,, to2105TOto the2106DTthe war2107NNwar bond2108NNbond advertisements2109NNSadvertisement that2110IN/thatthat the2111DTthe United2112NPUnited States2113NPSStates Government2114NPGovernment put2115VVDput ,2116,, to2117TOto the2118DTthe 19242119CD@card@ congressional2120JJcongressional resolution2121NNresolution ,2122,, all2123RBall did2124VVDdo use2125VVuse this2126DTthis cross2127NNcross .2128SENT. And2129CCand that2130DTthat 's2131VBZbe why2132WRBwhy we2133PPwe agree2134VVPagree ,2135,, Justice2136NPJustice Ginsburg2137NPGinsburg ...2138:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2139LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] And2140CCand I2141PPI visited2142VVDvisit some2143DTsome of2144INof those2145DTthose battlefields2146NNSbattlefield ,2147,, and2148CCand there2149EXthere are2150VBPbe Stars2151NPStars of2152INof Davids2153NPSDavid marking2154VVGmark the2155DTthe graves2156NNSgrave of2157INof Jewish2158JJJewish ...2159:... [MR. KATYAL]2160LOC[MR. KATYAL] Quite2161RBquite ...2162:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2163LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...2164:... soldiers2165NNSsoldier .2166SENT. [MR. KATYAL]2167LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...2168:... quite2169RBquite true2170JJtrue .2171SENT. We2172PPwe 're2173VBPbe not2174RBnot disagreeing2175VVGdisagree with2176INwith that2177DTthat .2178SENT. We2179PPwe 're2180VBPbe just2181RBjust saying2182VVGsay that2183IN/thatthat here2184RBhere ...2185:... and2186CCand this2187DTthis is2188VBZbe what2189WPwhat the2190DTthe Buono2191NPBuono plurality2192NNplurality recognized2193VVDrecognize ,2194,, and2195CCand Justice2196NPJustice Alito2197NPAlito 's2198POS's separate2199JJseparate opinion2200NNopinion ...2201:... that2202IN/thatthat there2203EXthere is2204VBZbe a2205DTa secular2206JJsecular meaning2207NNmeaning with2208INwith respect2209NNrespect to2210TOto these2211DTthese crosses2212NNScrosse .2213SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2214LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What2215WPWhat do2216VVPdo you2217PPyou say2218VVPsay to2219TOto the2220DTthe Jewish2221JJJewish war2222NNwar veterans2223NNSveteran brief2224NNbrief that2225WDTthat say2226VVPsay and2227CCand for2228INfor those2229DTthose Jewish2230JJJewish soldiers2231NNSsoldier ,2232,, the2233DTthe government2234NNgovernment 's2235POS's decision2236NNdecision to2237TOto honor2238VVhonor only2239RBonly the2240DTthe salvation2241NNsalvation that2242IN/thatthat Christians2243NNSChristian believe2244VVPbelieve is2245VBZbe hurtful2246JJhurtful ,2247,, wrong2248JJwrong ,2249,, and2250CCand not2251RBnot in2252INin keeping2253VVGkeep with2254INwith the2255DTthe promise2256NNpromise of2257INof the2258DTthe Constitution2259NPConstitution ?2260SENT? What2261WPWhat do2262VVPdo you2263PPyou say2264VVPsay to2265TOto them2266PPthem ?2267SENT? [MR. KATYAL]2268LOC[MR. KATYAL] I2269PPI ...2270:... I2271PPI 'd2272MDwould say2273VVsay three2274CDthree things2275NNSthing ,2276,, Justice2277NPJustice Kavanaugh2278NPKavanaugh ,2279,, and2280CCand then2281RBthen if2282INif I2283PPI could2284MDcould reserve2285VVreserve the2286DTthe balance2287NNbalance of2288INof my2289PP$my time2290NNtime .2291SENT. The2292DTthe first2293JJfirst is2294VBZbe that2295IN/thatthat ,2296,, factually2297RBfactually ,2298,, one2299CDone of2300INof the2301DTthe main2302JJmain proponents2303NNSproponent in2304INin fundraisers2305NNSfundraiser of2306INof this2307DTthis particular2308JJparticular cross2309NNcross was2310VBDbe J2311NPJ .2312SENT. Moses2313NPMoses Eldovich2314NPEldovich ,2315,, who2316WPwho himself2317PPhimself was2318VBDbe a2319DTa Jewish2320JJJewish veteran2321NNveteran .2322SENT. Second2323RBsecond ,2324,, there2325EXthere 's2326VBZbe a2327DTa ...2328:... there2329EXthere 's2330VBZbe a2331DTa contrary2332JJcontrary tradition2333NNtradition that2334IN/thatthat the2335DTthe Retired2336VVNretire Flag2337NNflag Officers2338NNSofficer brief2339JJbrief at2340INat page2341NNpage 92342CD9 says2343VVZsay that2344IN/thatthat some2345DTsome Jewish2346JJJewish vets2347NNSvet were2348VBDbe actually2349RBactually put2350VVNput and2351CCand buried2352VVNbury under2353INunder the2354DTthe cross2355NNcross and2356CCand wanted2357VVDwant to2358TOto be2359VBbe .2360SENT. And2361CCand ,2362,, third2363JJthird ,2364,, I2365PPI do2366VVPdo n't2367RBn't think2368VVthink this2369DTthis Court2370NPCourt has2371VHZhave ever2372RBever adopted2373VVNadopt the2374DTthe view2375NNview that2376IN/thatthat ,2377,, if2378INif some2379DTsome people2380NNSpeople disagree2381VVPdisagree with2382INwith something2383NNsomething ,2384,, that2385IN/thatthat that2386WDTthat itself2387PPitself creates2388VVZcreate an2389DTan Establishment2390NNestablishment Clause2391NNclause violation2392NNviolation .2393SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2394LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] If2395INif ...2396:... if2397INif the2398DTthe Chief2399NPChief would2400MDwould per2401INper ...2402:... [MR. KATYAL]2403LOC[MR. KATYAL] Rather2404NPRather ,2405,, the2406DTthe test2407NNtest is2408VBZbe objective2409JJobjective meaning2410NNmeaning .2411SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2412LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] If2413INif the2414DTthe Chief2415NPChief would2416MDwould permit2417VVpermit me2418PPme .2419SENT. There2420EXthere is2421VBZbe a2422DTa brief2423NNbrief here2424RBhere that2425RBthat says2426VVZsay that2427IN/thatthat ,2428,, to2429TOto deeply2430RBdeeply religious2431JJreligious Christians2432NNSChristian ,2433,, secularizing2434VVGsecularize the2435DTthe cross2436NNcross is2437VBZbe blasphemy2438NNblasphemy .2439SENT. Christ2440NPChrist died2441VVDdie on2442INon the2443DTthe cross2444NNcross .2445SENT. He2446PPhe was2447VBDbe resurrected2448VVNresurrect from2449INfrom his2450PP$his grave2451NNgrave .2452SENT. So2453INso those2454DTthose people2455NNSpeople do2456VVPdo n't2457RBn't view2458VVview secularizing2459VVGsecularize the2460DTthe cross2461NNcross as2462INas something2463NNsomething ...2464:... it2465PPit 's2466VBZbe not2467RBnot just2468RBjust Jewish2469JJJewish people2470NNSpeople or2471CCor Hindu2472JJHindu people2473NNSpeople who2474WPwho might2475MDmight be2476VBbe offended2477VVNoffend .2478SENT. It2479PPit could2480MDcould be2481VBbe Christians2482NNSChristian as2483INas well2484RBwell .2485SENT. [MR. KATYAL]2486LOC[MR. KATYAL] Justice2487NPJustice Sotomayor2488NPSotomayor ,2489,, my2490PP$my answer2491NNanswer would2492MDwould be2493VBbe the2494DTthe same2495JJsame as2496INas the2497DTthe third2498JJthird part2499NNpart to2500TOto Justice2501NPJustice Kavanaugh2502NPKavanaugh .2503SENT. I2504PPI do2505VVPdo n't2506RBn't think2507VVthink we2508PPwe let2509VVlet those2510DTthose objectors2511NNSobjector dictate2512VVPdictate that2513DTthat .2514SENT. If2515INif that2516DTthat were2517VBDbe the2518DTthe rule2519NNrule ,2520,, you2521PPyou 'd2522MDwould be2523VBbe tearing2524VVGtear down2525RPdown crosses2526NNScrosse at2527INat Arlington2528NPArlington Cemetery2529NPCemetery and2530CCand nationwide2531JJnationwide .2532SENT. The2533DTthe U2534NPU .2535SENT. S2536NPS .2537SENT. brief2538NNbrief at2539INat page2540NNpage 292541CD@card@ says2542VVZsay that2543DTthat .2544SENT. And2545CCand I2546PPI think2547VVPthink that2548IN/thatthat would2549MDwould actually2550RBactually inject2551VVinject this2552DTthis Court2553NPCourt and2554CCand create2555VVcreate more2556JJRmore of2557INof an2558DTan Establishment2559NNestablishment Clause2560NNclause problem2561NNproblem and2562CCand sew2563VVsew religious2564JJreligious divisions2565NNSdivision .2566SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2567LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank2568VVthank you2569PPyou ,2570,, counsel2571NNcounsel .2572SENT. Mr2573NPMr .2574SENT. Carvin2575NPCarvin .2576SENT.

[MR. CARVIN]2577LOC[MR. CARVIN] Mr2578NPMr .2579SENT. Chief2580NPChief Justice2581NPJustice ,2582,, and2583CCand may2584MDmay it2585PPit please2586VVplease the2587DTthe Court2588NPCourt :2589:: While2590INwhile the2591DTthe Peace2592NPPeace Cross2593NPCross should2594MDshould be2595VBbe upheld2596VVNuphold under2597INunder any2598DTany sensible2599JJsensible Establishment2600NNestablishment Clause2601NNclause analysis2602NNanalysis ,2603,, we2604PPwe submit2605VVPsubmit the2606DTthe Court2607NPCourt should2608MDshould analyze2609VVanalyze it2610PPit under2611INunder the2612DTthe Town2613NPTown of2614INof Greece2615NPGreece coercion2616NNcoercion test2617NNtest ,2618,, which2619WDTwhich prohibits2620VVZprohibit tangible2621JJtangible interference2622NNinterference with2623INwith religious2624JJreligious liberty2625NNliberty ,2626,, as2627RBas well2628RBwell as2629INas proselytizing2630VVGproselytize ,2631,, for2632INfor a2633DTa number2634NNnumber of2635INof reasons2636NNSreason .2637SENT. We2638PPwe think2639VVPthink this2640DTthis is2641VBZbe the2642DTthe simplest2643JJSsimple route2644NNroute .2645SENT. You2646PPyou would2647MDwould simply2648RBsimply extend2649VVextend Town2650NPTown of2651INof Greece2652NPGreece rule2653NNrule for2654INfor religious2655JJreligious speech2656NNspeech to2657TOto symbolic2658JJsymbolic speech2659NNspeech and2660CCand it2661PPit would2662MDwould provide2663VVprovide ,2664,, in2665INin a2666DTa situation2667NNsituation where2668WRBwhere the2669DTthe chances2670NNSchance for2671INfor coercion2672NNcoercion and2673CCand proselytization2674NNproselytization are2675VBPbe much2676RBmuch less2677JJRless than2678INthan in2679INin the2680DTthe communal2681JJcommunal prayer2682NNprayer ...2683:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2684LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Mr2685NPMr .2686SENT. Carvin2687NPCarvin ,2688,, could2689MDcould you2690PPyou explain2691VVexplain ...2692:... you2693PPyou have2694VHPhave this2695DTthis coercion2696NNcoercion theory2697NNtheory that2698IN/thatthat you2699PPyou think2700VVPthink you2701PPyou 're2702VBPbe urging2703VVGurge us2704PPus to2705TOto adopt2706VVadopt .2707SENT. But2708CCbut ,2709,, if2710INif that2711WDTthat 's2712VBZbe what2713WPwhat the2714DTthe Establishment2715NNestablishment Clause2716NNclause prohibits2717VVZprohibit ,2718,, only2719JJonly coercion2720NNcoercion ,2721,, how2722WRBhow does2723VVZdo this2724DTthis offer2725NNoffer ...2726:... how2727WRBhow does2728VVZdo this2729DTthis office2730NNoffice differ2731VVPdiffer from2732INfrom the2733DTthe Free2734NPFree Exercise2735NNexercise Clause2736NNclause ?2737SENT? That2738DTthat is2739VBZbe ,2740,, can2741MDcan you2742PPyou suggest2743VVsuggest a2744DTa practice2745NNpractice that2746WDTthat would2747MDwould be2748VBbe unconstitutionally2749RBunconstitutionally coercive2750JJcoercive under2751INunder the2752DTthe Establishment2753NNestablishment Clause2754NNclause and2755CCand yet2756RByet be2757VBbe inoffensive2758JJinoffensive under2759INunder the2760DTthe Free2761NPFree Exercise2762NNexercise Clause2763NNclause ?2764SENT? [MR. CARVIN]2765LOC[MR. CARVIN] Yes2766NPYes ,2767,, Your2768PP$your Honor2769NPHonor ,2770,, forcing2771VVGforce us2772PPus to2773TOto pay2774VVpay threepence2775NNthreepence to2776TOto a2777DTa minister2778NNminister .2779SENT. That2780DTthat would2781MDwould violate2782VVviolate my2783PP$my negative2784JJnegative liberty2785NNliberty not2786RBnot to2787TOto support2788VVsupport a2789DTa church2790NNchurch I2791PPI do2792VVPdo n't2793RBn't want2794VVwant to2795TOto ,2796,, but2797CCbut it2798PPit would2799MDwould n't2800RBn't violate2801VVviolate any2802DTany religious2803JJreligious tenets2804NNStenet or2805CCor my2806PP$my ability2807NNability to2808TOto pursue2809VVpursue the2810DTthe religion2811NNreligion I2812PPI do2813VVPdo want2814VVwant to2815TOto .2816SENT. So2817RBso it2818PPit creates2819VVZcreate a2820DTa negative2821JJnegative liberty2822NNliberty not2823RBnot to2824TOto support2825VVsupport coercively2826RBcoercively religions2827NNSreligion which2828WDTwhich you2829PPyou do2830VVPdo not2831RBnot support2832VVsupport .2833SENT. I2834PPI would2835MDwould also2836RBalso point2837VVpoint out2838RPout that2839IN/thatthat this2840DTthis standard2841NNstandard is2842VBZbe completely2843RBcompletely the2844DTthe correct2845JJcorrect one2846CDone under2847INunder the2848DTthe text2849NNtext and2850CCand history2851NNhistory of2852INof the2853DTthe Establishment2854NNestablishment Clause2855NNclause because2856RBbecause ,2857,, when2858WRBwhen they2859PPthey were2860VBDbe discussing2861VVGdiscuss all2862PDTall the2863DTthe hallmarks2864NNShallmark of2865INof establishment2866NNestablishment ,2867,, what2868WPwhat they2869PPthey were2870VBDbe talking2871VVGtalk about2872RBabout was2873VBDbe tangible2874JJtangible interference2875NNinterference .2876SENT. It2877PPit also2878RBalso extends2879VVZextend to2880TOto proselytizing2881VVGproselytize under2882INunder this2883DTthis Court2884NPCourt 's2885POS's decisions2886NNSdecision in2887INin both2888DTboth Town2889NPTown of2890INof Greece2891NPGreece and2892CCand the2893DTthe Allegheny2894NPAllegheny County2895NPCounty dissent2896NNdissent ,2897,, which2898WDTwhich is2899VBZbe what2900WPwhat we2901PPwe 're2902VBPbe asking2903VVGask the2904DTthe Court2905NPCourt to2906TOto adopt2907VVadopt .2908SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2909LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] What2910WDTwhat ...2911:... what2912WPwhat counts2913VVZcount as2914INas proselytizing2915VVGproselytize ?2916SENT? I2917PPI think2918VVPthink I2919PPI understand2920VVPunderstand what2921WPwhat coercion2922NNcoercion means2923VVZmean better2924JJRgood than2925INthan what2926WPwhat proselytizing2927VVGproselytize means2928NNSmean .2929SENT. [MR. CARVIN]2930LOC[MR. CARVIN] Well2931UHwell ,2932,, I2933PPI think2934VVPthink it2935PPit 's2936VBZbe actually2937RBactually very2938RBvery straightforward2939JJstraightforward .2940SENT. The2941DTthe definition2942NNdefinition is2943VBZbe preaching2944VVGpreach conversion2945NNconversion .2946SENT. The2947DTthe lower2948JJRlow courts2949NNScourt have2950VHPhave said2951VVNsay this2952DTthis is2953VBZbe add2954VVadd ...2955:... aggressively2956RBaggressively advocating2957VVGadvocate conversion2958NNconversion from2959INfrom one2960CDone sect2961NNsect to2962TOto another2963DTanother .2964SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2965LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] What2966WPWhat 's2967VBZbe the2968DTthe difference2969NNdifference between2970INbetween that2971WDTthat and2972CCand an2973DTan endorsement2974NNendorsement ?2975SENT? [MR. CARVIN]2976LOC[MR. CARVIN] Well2977UHwell ,2978,, there2979EXthere 's2980VBZbe ...2981:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2982LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You2983PPyou tell2984VVPtell us2985PPus we2986PPwe should2987MDshould abandon2988VVabandon Lemon2989NPLemon 's2990POS's endorsement2991NNendorsement test2992NNtest because2993INbecause it2994PPit 's2995VHZhave become2996VVNbecome a2997DTa dog2998NNdog 's2999POS's breakfast3000NNbreakfast .3001SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3002LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right3003NPRight .3004SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3005LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And3006CCand nobody3007NNnobody knows3008VVZknow how3009WRBhow to3010TOto apply3011VVapply it3012PPit .3013SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3014LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right3015NPRight .3016SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3017LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] The3018DTthe circuit3019NNcircuit courts3020NNScourt are3021VBPbe confused3022VVNconfuse ,3023,, you3024PPyou tell3025VVPtell us3026PPus .3027SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3028LOC[MR. CARVIN] It3029PPit 's3030VBZbe not3031RBnot that3032DTthat ...3033:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3034LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And3035CCand then3036RBthen you3037PPyou replace3038VVreplace it3039PPit with3040INwith coercion3041NNcoercion but3042CCbut now3043RBnow maybe3044RBmaybe proselytizing3045VVGproselytize in3046INin the3047DTthe reply3048NNreply brief3049NNbrief .3050SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3051LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right3052NPRight .3053SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3054LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I'm3055NPI'm ...3056:... I3057PPI ...3058:... I3059PPI do3060VVPdo n't3061RBn't see3062VVsee the3063DTthe daylight3064NNdaylight between3065INbetween proselytizing3066VVGproselytize and3067CCand endorsement3068NNendorsement .3069SENT. Can3070MDcan you3071PPyou help3072VVhelp me3073PPme out3074RPout ?3075SENT? [MR. CARVIN]3076LOC[MR. CARVIN] We3077PPwe think3078VVPthink there3079EXthere 's3080VBZbe a3081DTa fundamental3082JJfundamental difference3083NNdifference ,3084,, Justice3085NPJustice Gorsuch3086NPGorsuch .3087SENT. Under3088INunder our3089PP$our test3090NNtest ,3091,, all3092DTall symbolic3093JJsymbolic ,3094,, including3095VVGinclude sectarian3096JJsectarian ,3097,, symbols3098NNSsymbol would3099MDwould be3100VBbe presumptively3101RBpresumptively valid3102JJvalid ,3103,, except3104INexcept in3105INin the3106DTthe rare3107JJrare circumstances3108NNScircumstance where3109WRBwhere they3110PPthey 've3111VHPhave been3112VBNbe misused3113VVNmisuse to3114TOto proselytize3115VVproselytize ,3116,, whereas3117INwhereas ,3118,, under3119INunder the3120DTthe endorsement3121NNendorsement test3122NNtest ,3123,, all3124RBall ...3125:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3126LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well3127UHWell ,3128,, suppose3129VVPsuppose a3130DTa city3131NNcity ...3132:... [MR. CARVIN]3133LOC[MR. CARVIN] ...3134:... all3135DTall sectarian3136JJsectarian symbols3137NNSsymbol are3138VBPbe unconstitutional3139JJunconstitutional .3140SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3141LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...3142:... suppose3143VVPsuppose a3144DTa city3145NNcity erected3146VVDerect a3147DTa cross3148NNcross not3149RBnot for3150INfor purposes3151NNSpurpose of3152INof memorializing3153VVGmemorialize the3154DTthe war3155NNwar dead3156RBdead or3157CCor ...3158:... but3159CCbut just3160RBjust to3161TOto emphasize3162VVemphasize the3163DTthe values3164NNSvalue of3165INof Christianity3166NNChristianity .3167SENT. Would3168MDwould ...3169:... would3170MDwould that3171RBthat be3172VBbe proselytizing3173VVGproselytize ,3174,, or3175CCor would3176MDwould that3177RBthat not3178RBnot be3179VBbe proselytizing3180VVGproselytize ?3181SENT? [MR. CARVIN]3182LOC[MR. CARVIN] I3183PPI think3184VVPthink ,3185,, again3186RBagain ,3187,, that3188WDTthat stays3189VVZstay very3190RBvery close3191VVclose to3192TOto the3193DTthe hypothetical3194JJhypothetical that3195IN/thatthat Justice3196NPJustice Kennedy3197NPKennedy put3198VVDput in3199INin the3200DTthe Allegheny3201NPAllegheny County3202NPCounty dissent3203NNdissent where3204WRBwhere you3205PPyou 've3206VHPhave got3207VVNget a3208DTa permanent3209JJpermanent Latin3210JJLatin cross3211NNcross on3212INon top3213NNtop of3214INof City3215NPCity Hall3216NPHall .3217SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3218LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Right3219NPRight .3220SENT. This3221DTthis one3222CDone is3223VBZbe not3224RBnot ...3225:... [MR. CARVIN]3226LOC[MR. CARVIN] I3227PPI think3228VVPthink ...3229:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3230LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...3231:... on3232INon top3233NNtop of3234INof City3235NPCity Hall3236NPHall .3237SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3238LOC[MR. CARVIN] Yes3239NPYes .3240SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3241LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] This3242DTthis one3243CDone is3244VBZbe ,3245,, you3246PPyou know3247VVPknow ,3248,, in3249INin a3250DTa park3251NNpark .3252SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3253LOC[MR. CARVIN] Oh3254NPOh .3255SENT. Well3256UHwell ,3257,, then3258RBthen I3259PPI think3260VVPthink it3261PPit 's3262VBZbe very3263RBvery much3264JJmuch like3265INlike Penn3266NPPenn Ed3267NPEd .3268SENT. If3269INif they3270PPthey 've3271VHPhave got3272VVNget other3273JJother symbols3274NNSsymbol there3275RBthere and3276CCand they3277PPthey ...3278:... and3279CCand they3280PPthey allow3281VVPallow ...3282:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3283LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] It3284PPit 's3285VBZbe just3286RBjust a3287DTa cross3288NNcross .3289SENT. This3290DTthis is3291VBZbe ...3292:... they3293PPthey want3294VVPwant to3295TOto emphasize3296VVemphasize the3297DTthe values3298NNSvalue of3299INof Christianity3300NNChristianity ,3301,, so3302RBso they3303PPthey put3304VVDput up3305RPup a3306DTa cross3307NNcross .3308SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3309LOC[MR. CARVIN] I3310PPI think3311VVPthink it3312PPit would3313MDwould be3314VBbe a3315DTa very3316RBvery rare3317JJrare case3318NNcase ,3319,, or3320CCor unless3321INunless you3322PPyou were3323VBDbe sort3324NNsort of3325INof conditioning3326NNconditioning access3327NNaccess to3328TOto government3329NNgovernment services3330NNSservice ,3331,, like3332INlike the3333DTthe one3334CDone on3335INon City3336NPCity Hall3337NPHall would3338MDwould certainly3339RBcertainly suggest3340VVsuggest ,3341,, that3342IN/thatthat that3343WDTthat would3344MDwould either3345CCeither constitute3346VVPconstitute de3347FWde facto3348FWfacto establishment3349NNestablishment or3350CCor de3351FWde facto3352FWfacto coercion3353NNcoercion .3354SENT. And3355CCand I3356PPI do3357VVPdo n't3358RBn't think3359VVthink the3360DTthe other3361JJother side3362NNside can3363MDcan provide3364VVprovide a3365DTa real-world3366NNreal-world hypothetical3367JJhypothetical involving3368VVGinvolve a3369DTa cross3370NNcross that3371WDTthat could3372MDcould be3373VBbe misused3374VVNmisuse for3375INfor proselytizing3376VVGproselytize purposes3377NNSpurpose ,3378,, which3379WDTwhich is3380VBZbe why3381WRBwhy I3382PPI think3383VVPthink the3384DTthe endorsement3385NNendorsement standard3386NNstandard is3387VBZbe ...3388:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3389LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well3390UHwell ,3391,, I3392PPI guess3393VVPguess what3394WPwhat ...3395:... what3396WPwhat ...3397:... what3398WPwhat I3399PPI was3400VBDbe trying3401VVGtry to3402TOto suggest3403VVsuggest was3404VBDbe that3405IN/thatthat this3406DTthis was3407VBDbe something3408NNsomething that3409WDTthat indicated3410VVDindicate that3411IN/thatthat the3412DTthe city3413NNcity was3414VBDbe aligning3415VVGalign itself3416PPitself with3417INwith one3418CDone particular3419JJparticular religion3420NNreligion .3421SENT. We3422PPwe 're3423VBPbe putting3424VVGput up3425RPup a3426DTa cross3427NNcross .3428SENT. We3429PPwe 're3430VBPbe not3431RBnot putting3432VVGput up3433RPup any3434DTany other3435JJother religious3436JJreligious symbols3437NNSsymbol because3438INbecause we3439PPwe believe3440VVPbelieve in3441INin the3442DTthe values3443NNSvalue that3444IN/thatthat the3445DTthe cross3446NNcross indicates3447VVZindicate .3448SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3449LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again3450NPAgain ...3451:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3452LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3453CCbut it3454PPit 's3455VBZbe ...3456:... it3457PPit 's3458VBZbe not3459RBnot on3460INon top3461NNtop of3462INof City3463NPCity Hall3464NPHall .3465SENT. It3466PPit 's3467VBZbe on3468INon a3469DTa street3470NNstreet .3471SENT. It3472PPit 's3473VBZbe in3474INin a3475DTa park3476NNpark .3477SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3478LOC[MR. CARVIN] Well3479UHWell ...3480:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3481LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Maybe3482RBmaybe there3483EXthere are3484VBPbe two3485CDtwo crosses3486NNScrosse .3487SENT. Maybe3488RBmaybe there3489EXthere could3490MDcould be3491VBbe 103492CD@card@ crosses3493NNScrosse ,3494,, you3495PPyou know3496VVPknow ,3497,, in3498INin different3499JJdifferent parts3500NNSpart of3501INof the3502DTthe city3503NNcity .3504SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3505LOC[MR. CARVIN] Well3506UHWell ...3507:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3508LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3509CCbut that3510DTthat 's3511VBZbe why3512WRBwhy the3513DTthe ...3514:... the3515DTthe ...3516:... the3517DTthe city3518NNcity is3519VBZbe doing3520VVGdo it3521PPit .3522SENT. And3523CCand ,3524,, of3525INof course3526NNcourse ,3527,, everybody3528NNeverybody recognizes3529VVZrecognize what3530WPwhat a3531DTa cross3532NNcross is3533VBZbe .3534SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3535LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right3536NPRight .3537SENT. It3538PPit 's3539VBZbe a3540DTa relatively3541RBrelatively straightforward3542JJstraightforward inquiry3543NNinquiry ,3544,, Justice3545NPJustice Kagan3546NPKagan .3547SENT. Is3548VBZbe the3549DTthe religion3550NNreligion of3551INof it3552PPit a3553DTa non-proselytizing3554JJnon-proselytizing purpose3555NNpurpose that3556WDTthat ...3557:... that3558WDTthat could3559MDcould be3560VBbe concerned3561VVNconcern .3562SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3563LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well3564UHWell ,3565,, is3566VBZbe there3567RBthere ?3568SENT? [MR. CARVIN]3569LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again3570NPAgain ,3571,, in3572INin these3573DTthese circumstances3574NNScircumstance ,3575,, I3576PPI need3577VVPneed to3578TOto know3579VVknow was3580VBDbe this3581DTthis ,3582,, for3583INfor example3584NNexample ,3585,, suggested3586VVNsuggest by3587INby people3588NNSpeople who3589WPwho were3590VBDbe honoring3591VVGhonor the3592DTthe victims3593NNSvictim of3594INof a3595DTa school3596NNschool shooting3597NNshooting .3598SENT. Was3599VBDbe it3600PPit simply3601RBsimply ...3602:... what3603WPwhat was3604VBDbe the3605DTthe genesis3606NNgenesis ?3607SENT? You3608PPyou need3609VVPneed to3610TOto look3611VVlook at3612INat ...3613:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3614LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] It3615PPit 's3616VBZbe just3617RBjust a3618DTa ...3619:... it3620PPit 's3621VBZbe just3622RBjust a3623DTa cross3624NNcross .3625SENT. It3626PPit really3627RBreally is3628VBZbe .3629SENT. So3630RBso it3631PPit 's3632VBZbe ...3633:... it3634PPit 's3635VBZbe ...3636:... it3637PPit 's3638VBZbe ...3639:... you3640PPyou know3641VVPknow ,3642,, these3643DTthese values3644NNSvalue are3645VBPbe important3646JJimportant to3647TOto this3648DTthis community3649NNcommunity ,3650,, the3651DTthe values3652NNSvalue of3653INof Christianity3654NNChristianity ,3655,, so3656RBso we3657PPwe would3658MDwould like3659VVlike to3660TOto put3661VVput up3662RPup some3663DTsome crosses3664NNScrosse around3665INaround town3666NNtown .3667SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3668LOC[MR. CARVIN] Oh3669NPOh ,3670,, again3671RBagain ,3672,, if3673INif that3674WDTthat 's3675VBZbe the3676DTthe ...3677:... if3678INif that3679WDTthat 's3680VBZbe the3681DTthe announced3682JJannounced purpose3683NNpurpose and3684CCand effect3685NNeffect ,3686,, of3687INof aligning3688VVGalign ourselves3689PPourselves with3690INwith Christianity3691NNChristianity ,3692,, then3693RBthen I3694PPI would3695MDwould think3696VVthink it3697PPit would3698MDwould sound3699VVsound ...3700:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3701LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well3702UHWell ,3703,, suppose3704VVPsuppose ...3705:... [MR. CARVIN]3706LOC[MR. CARVIN] ...3707:... much3708RBmuch like3709INlike proselytizing3710VVGproselytize .3711SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3712LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...3713:... suppose3714VVPsuppose after3715INafter this3716DTthis case3717NNcase Hyattsville3718NPHyattsville puts3719VVZput up3720RPup a3721DTa cross3722NNcross and3723CCand College3724NPCollege Park3725NPPark puts3726VVZput up3727RPup a3728DTa cross3729NNcross and3730CCand the3731DTthe surrounding3732VVGsurround communities3733NNScommunity put3734VVDput up3735RPup crosses3736NNScrosse ,3737,, and3738CCand they3739PPthey ...3740:... there3741EXthere 's3742VBZbe mixed3743JJmixed purposes3744NNSpurpose .3745SENT. Some3746DTsome people3747NNSpeople do3748VVPdo it3749PPit because3750INbecause they3751PPthey want3752VVPwant to3753TOto support3754VVsupport it3755PPit because3756INbecause they3757PPthey want3758VVPwant to3759TOto celebrate3760VVcelebrate Christianity3761NNChristianity .3762SENT. Some3763DTsome people3764NNSpeople do3765VVPdo it3766PPit because3767INbecause they3768PPthey say3769VVPsay we3770PPwe want3771VVPwant to3772TOto celebrate3773VVcelebrate war3774NNwar dead3775JJdead .3776SENT. There3777EXthere 's3778VBZbe mixed3779JJmixed purposes3780NNSpurpose .3781SENT. Proselytizing3782VVGproselytize or3783CCor not3784RBnot proselytizing3785VVGproselytize ?3786SENT? [MR. CARVIN]3787LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again3788RBagain ,3789,, I3790PPI think3791VVPthink sectarian3792JJsectarian symbols3793NNSsymbol are3794VBPbe presumptively3795RBpresumptively valid3796JJvalid ,3797,, Justice3798NPJustice Kavanaugh3799NPKavanaugh ,3800,, because3801RBbecause ...3802:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3803LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Presumptively3804RBpresumptively valid3805JJvalid and3806CCand can3807MDcan ...3808:... that3809DTthat presumption3810NNpresumption can3811MDcan be3812VBbe overcome3813VVNovercome when3814WRBwhen ?3815SENT? [MR. CARVIN]3816LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again3817NPAgain ,3818,, if3819INif you3820PPyou show3821VVPshow that3822IN/thatthat there3823EXthere is3824VBZbe n't3825RBn't a3826DTa legitimate3827JJlegitimate non-proselytizing3828JJnon-proselytizing purpose3829NNpurpose ...3830:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3831LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Counsel3832NPCounsel ...3833:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3834LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well3835UHWell ,3836,, I3837PPI guess3838VVPguess then3839RBthen that3840DTthat 's3841VBZbe where3842WRBwhere I3843PPI ...3844:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3845LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I3846PPI was3847VBDbe just3848RBjust going3849VVGgo to3850TOto say3851VVsay you3852PPyou start3853VVstart out3854RPout with3855INwith what3856WPwhat you3857PPyou ...3858:... you3859PPyou advertise3860VVPadvertise is3861VBZbe a3862DTa pretty3863RBpretty concise3864JJconcise test3865NNtest ,3866,, but3867CCbut it3868PPit degenerates3869VVZdegenerate pretty3870RBpretty quickly3871RBquickly into3872INinto ,3873,, well3874UHwell ,3875,, I3876PPI need3877VVPneed to3878TOto know3879VVknow about3880INabout this3881DTthis ,3882,, I3883PPI need3884VVPneed to3885TOto know3886VVknow about3887INabout that3888DTthat ,3889,, and3890CCand becomes3891VVZbecome kind3892NNkind of3893INof a3894DTa fact-specific3895JJfact-specific test3896NNtest rather3897RBrather than3898INthan the3899DTthe ...3900:... the3901DTthe ...3902:... the3903DTthe crisper3904JJRcrisp one3905CDone that3906WDTthat you3907PPyou propose3908VVPpropose in3909INin your3910PP$your brief3911NNbrief .3912SENT. [MR. CARVIN]3913LOC[MR. CARVIN] Your3914PP$your Honor3915NPHonor ,3916,, we3917PPwe could3918MDcould have3919VHhave a3920DTa bright3921JJbright line3922NNline test3923NNtest that3924IN/thatthat only3925JJonly formal3926JJformal coercion3927NNcoercion is3928VBZbe prohibited3929VVNprohibit ,3930,, but3931CCbut I3932PPI do3933VVPdo n't3934RBn't think3935VVthink that3936WDTthat would3937MDwould satisfy3938VVsatisfy this3939DTthis Court3940NNcourt because3941INbecause the3942DTthe dangers3943NNSdanger of3944INof the3945DTthe Establishment3946NNestablishment Clause3947NNclause posed3948VVNpose by3949INby coercion3950NNcoercion ,3951,, which3952WDTwhich is3953VBZbe tangible3954JJtangible threat3955NNthreat to3956TOto liberty3957NNliberty ,3958,, may3959MDmay ...3960:... could3961MDcould be3962VBbe reached3963VVNreach indirectly3964RBindirectly through3965INthrough the3966DTthe sorts3967NNSsort of3968INof things3969NNSthing I3970PPI 'm3971VBPbe talking3972VVGtalk about3973RBabout .3974SENT. And3975CCand it3976PPit is3977VBZbe true3978JJtrue ,3979,, of3980INof course3981NNcourse ,3982,, that3983IN/thatthat every3984DTevery test3985NNtest that3986IN/thatthat this3987DTthis Court3988NPCourt adopts3989VVZadopt needs3990NNSneed to3991TOto focus3992VVfocus on3993INon context3994NNcontext ,3995,, purpose3996NNpurpose ,3997,, and3998CCand effect3999NNeffect .4000SENT. But4001CCbut the4002DTthe key4003JJkey point4004NNpoint is4005VBZbe you4006PPyou 're4007VBPbe asking4008VVGask a4009DTa different4010JJdifferent question4011NNquestion than4012INthan you4013PPyou are4014VBPbe under4015INunder the4016DTthe endorsement4017NNendorsement test4018NNtest .4019SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4020LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well4021UHwell ,4022,, I4023PPI do4024VVPdo n't4025RBn't ...4026:... [MR. CARVIN]4027LOC[MR. CARVIN] We4028PPwe 're4029VBPbe not4030RBnot asking4031VVGask ...4032:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4033LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] That4034DTthat 's4035VBZbe where4036WRBwhere ...4037:... that4038WDTthat 's4039VBZbe where4040WRBwhere I4041PPI ...4042:... I4043PPI 'm4044VBPbe just4045RBjust stuck4046VVNstick .4047SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4048LOC[MR. CARVIN] Okay4049NPOkay .4050SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4051LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And4052CCand ...4053:... and4054CCand to4055TOto say4056VVsay I4057PPI endorse4058VVendorse something4059NNsomething ...4060:... [MR. CARVIN]4061LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right4062RBright .4063SENT. Well4064UHwell ...4065:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4066LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...4067:... is4068VBZbe ...4069:... what4070WPwhat 's4071VBZbe the4072DTthe difference4073NNdifference between4074INbetween saying4075VVGsay I4076PPI endorse4077VVendorse something4078NNsomething and4079CCand I4080PPI proselytize4081VVPproselytize or4082CCor promote4083VVPpromote ,4084,, perhaps4085RBperhaps ,4086,, is4087VBZbe another4088DTanother synonym4089NNsynonym ,4090,, something4091NNsomething ?4092SENT? It4093PPit seems4094VVZseem to4095TOto me4096PPme that4097IN/thatthat you4098PPyou are4099VBPbe taking4100VVGtake us4101PPus right4102RBright back4103RBback to4104TOto the4105DTthe dog4106NNdog 's4107POS's breakfast4108NNbreakfast you4109PPyou 've4110VHPhave warned4111VVNwarn us4112PPus against4113INagainst .4114SENT. And4115CCand I4116PPI do4117VVPdo understand4118VVunderstand the4119DTthe coercion4120NNcoercion test4121NNtest ,4122,, but4123CCbut I4124PPI ...4125:... I4126PPI ...4127:... I4128PPI do4129VVPdo n't4130RBn't understand4131VVunderstand your4132PP$your abandonment4133NNabandonment of4134INof it4135PPit .4136SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4137LOC[MR. CARVIN] Fair4138NPFair enough4139RBenough .4140SENT. "4141''" In4142INin God4143NPGod we4144PPwe trust4145VVPtrust "4146``" certainly4147RBcertainly promotes4148VVZpromote religion4149NNreligion ,4150,, endorses4151VVZendorse religion4152NNreligion ,4153,, no4154DTno question4155NNquestion about4156INabout it4157PPit .4158SENT. But4159CCbut it4160PPit 's4161VBZbe not4162RBnot a4163DTa ...4164:... it4165PPit 's4166VBZbe not4167RBnot an4168DTan effort4169NNeffort to4170TOto proselytize4171VVproselytize .4172SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4173LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Justice4174NPJustice Scalia4175NPScalia once4176RBonce ...4177:... [MR. CARVIN]4178LOC[MR. CARVIN] The4179DTthe free4180JJfree exercise4181NNexercise ...4182:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4183LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4184:... Justice4185NPJustice Scalia4186NPScalia once4187RBonce asked4188VVDask a4189DTa question4190NNquestion when4191WRBwhen somebody4192NNsomebody gave4193VVDgive that4194DTthat example4195NNexample .4196SENT. He4197PPhe said4198VVDsay ,4199,, what4200WDTwhat ...4201:... what4202WPwhat would4203MDwould happen4204VVhappen if4205INif a4206DTa coin4207NNcoin had4208VHDhave said4209VVNsay "4210``" In4211INin Jesus4212NPJesus Christ4213NPChrist we4214PPwe trust4215VVPtrust "4216''" ?4217SENT? [MR. CARVIN]4218LOC[MR. CARVIN] And4219CCand ,4220,, again4221RBagain ,4222,, that4223WDTthat 's4224VBZbe actually4225RBactually a4226DTa very4227RBvery nice4228JJnice illustration4229NNillustration of4230INof the4231DTthe distinction4232NNdistinction .4233SENT. On4234INon day4235NNday one4236CDone ,4237,, we4238PPwe 've4239VHPhave got4240VVNget "4241``" In4242INin God4243NPGod we4244PPwe trust4245VVPtrust ,4246,, "4247''" which4248WDTwhich is4249VBZbe promoting4250VVGpromote ,4251,, endorsing4252VVGendorse religion4253NNreligion .4254SENT. It4255PPit is4256VBZbe no4257RBno good4258JJgood under4259INunder the4260DTthe Lemon4261NPLemon test4262NNtest .4263SENT. On4264INon day4265NNday two4266CDtwo ,4267,, we4268PPwe 've4269VHPhave got4270VVNget "4271``" In4272INin Jesus4273NPJesus we4274PPwe trust4275VVPtrust .4276SENT. "4277``" What4278WPWhat message4279NNmessage is4280VBZbe the4281DTthe government4282NNgovernment sending4283VVGsend ?4284SENT? You4285PPyou can4286MDcan 't4287RB't trust4288NNtrust this4289DTthis Jewish4290JJJewish God4291NPGod .4292SENT. You4293PPyou 've4294VHPhave got4295VVNget to4296TOto ...4297:... you4298PPyou 've4299VHPhave got4300VVNget to4301TOto take4302VVtake sides4303NNSside in4304INin a4305DTa sectarian4306JJsectarian dispute4307NNdispute where4308WRBwhere Jesus4309NPJesus is4310VBZbe the4311DTthe one4312CDone we4313PPwe 're4314VBPbe doing4315VVGdo .4316SENT. And4317CCand if4318INif they4319PPthey are4320VBPbe taking4321VVGtake sides4322NNSside in4323INin a4324DTa sectarian4325JJsectarian dispute4326NNdispute ,4327,, as4328INas Justice4329NPJustice Scalia4330NPScalia pointed4331VVDpoint out4332RPout ,4333,, that4334WDTthat 's4335VBZbe precisely4336RBprecisely the4337DTthe definition4338NNdefinition of4339INof what4340WPwhat constitutes4341VVZconstitute an4342DTan establishment4343NNestablishment .4344SENT. To4345TOTo ...4346:... to4347TOto ...4348:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4349LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Why4350WRBwhy am4351VBPbe I4352PPI not4353RBnot proselytizing4354VVGproselytize religion4355NNreligion when4356WRBwhen I4357PPI say4358VVPsay "4359''" In4360INin God4361NPGod we4362PPwe trust4363VVPtrust "4364''" but4365CCbut I4366PPI am4367VBPbe when4368WRBwhen I4369PPI say4370VVPsay "4371''" In4372INin Jesus4373NPJesus Christ4374NPChrist we4375PPwe trust4376VVPtrust "4377''" ?4378SENT? I4379PPI 'm4380VBPbe just4381RBjust proselytizing4382VVGproselytize religion4383NNreligion in4384INin a4385DTa more4386RBRmore generic4387JJgeneric sense4388NNsense .4389SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4390LOC[MR. CARVIN] That4391DTthat ...4392:... that4393WDTthat 's4394VBZbe fair4395JJfair enough4396RBenough ,4397,, and4398CCand I4399PPI think4400VVPthink Justice4401NPJustice Scalia4402NPScalia would4403MDwould respond4404VVrespond in4405INin this4406DTthis ...4407:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4408LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well4409UHWell ,4410,, there4411RBthere we4412PPwe are4413VBPbe .4414SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4415LOC[MR. CARVIN] No4416NPNo ...4417:... no4418UHno ,4419,, but4420CCbut the4421DTthe difference4422NNdifference between4423INbetween promoting4424VVGpromote religion4425NNreligion versus4426INversus irreligion4427NNirreligion and4428CCand promoting4429VVGpromote one4430CDone sect4431NNsect over4432INover another4433DTanother ...4434:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4435LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What4436WPWhat ...4437:... what4438WPwhat ...4439:... [MR. CARVIN]4440LOC[MR. CARVIN] ...4441:... which4442WDTwhich I4443PPI think4444VVPthink the4445DTthe sectarian4446JJsectarian point4447NNpoint would4448MDwould obviously4449RBobviously lend4450VVlend itself4451PPitself to4452TOto proselytizing4453VVGproselytize .4454SENT. In4455INin this4456DTthis context4457NNcontext ,4458,, I4459PPI do4460VVPdo want4461VVwant to4462TOto emphasize4463VVemphasize that4464IN/thatthat all4465DTall symbols4466NNSsymbol are4467VBPbe sectarian4468JJsectarian .4469SENT. There4470EXthere 's4471VBZbe no4472DTno such4473JJsuch thing4474NNthing as4475INas a4476DTa non-denominational4477JJnon-denominational ...4478:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4479LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What4480WPWhat ...4481:... [MR. CARVIN]4482LOC[MR. CARVIN] ...4483:... religious4484JJreligious symbol4485NNsymbol .4486SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4487LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...4488:... what4489WPwhat 's4490VBZbe your4491PP$your answer4492NNanswer ...4493:... what4494WPwhat 's4495VBZbe your4496PP$your answer4497NNanswer to4498TOto the4499DTthe cross4500NNcross on4501INon City4502NPCity Hall4503NPHall ?4504SENT? I4505PPI did4506VVDdo n't4507RBn't get4508VVget whether4509INwhether your4510PP$your answer4511NNanswer is4512VBZbe that4513WDTthat 's4514VBZbe unconstitutional4515JJunconstitutional or4516CCor constitutional4517JJconstitutional .4518SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4519LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again4520RBagain ,4521,, we4522PPwe 're4523VBPbe seeking4524VVGseek to4525TOto have4526VHhave this4527DTthis Court4528NPCourt adopt4529VVadopt Justice4530NPJustice Kennedy4531NPKennedy 's4532POS's dissent4533NNdissent in4534INin Allegheny4535NPAllegheny County4536NPCounty .4537SENT. He4538PPhe ...4539:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4540LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] And4541CCand in4542INin that4543DTthat dissent4544NNdissent ,4545,, he4546PPhe said4547VVDsay that4548IN/thatthat a4549DTa cross4550NNcross on4551INon City4552NPCity Hall4553NPHall would4554MDwould be4555VBbe unconstitutional4556JJunconstitutional .4557SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4558LOC[MR. CARVIN] Because4559INbecause it4560PPit 's4561VBZbe ...4562:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4563LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Do4564VVdo you4565PPyou ...4566:... [MR. CARVIN]4567LOC[MR. CARVIN] Because4568INbecause it4569PPit ...4570:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4571LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Do4572VVPdo you4573PPyou agree4574VVPagree ?4575SENT? [MR. CARVIN]4576LOC[MR. CARVIN] Because4577INbecause it4578PPit constitutes4579VVZconstitute proselytizing4580VVGproselytize ,4581,, and4582CCand we4583PPwe certainly4584RBcertainly do4585VVPdo agree4586VVagree .4587SENT. I4588PPI ...4589:... I4590PPI think4591VVPthink in4592INin all4593DTall contexts4594NNScontext you4595PPyou need4596VVPneed to4597TOto be4598VBbe careful4599JJcareful .4600SENT. If4601INif it4602PPit was4603VBDbe Las4604NPLas Cruces4605NNcruces ,4606,, New4607NPNew Mexico4608NPMexico ,4609,, and4610CCand again4611RBagain there4612EXthere was4613VBDbe a4614DTa legitimate4615JJlegitimate non-proselytizing4616JJnon-proselytizing reason4617NNreason for4618INfor the4619DTthe permanent4620JJpermanent cross4621NNcross ,4622,, then4623RBthen ...4624:... but4625CCbut ,4626,, as4627INas a4628DTa general4629JJgeneral matter4630NNmatter ,4631,, sure4632RBsure ,4633,, if4634INif they4635PPthey 're4636VBPbe putting4637VVGput up4638RPup crosses4639NNScrosse at4640INat every4641DTevery courtroom4642NNcourtroom ,4643,, every4644DTevery DMV4645NPDMV window4646NNwindow ,4647,, and4648CCand all4649PDTall the4650DTthe parade4651NNparade of4652INof hypotheticals4653NNShypotheticals we4654PPwe 've4655VHPhave gotten4656VVNget on4657INon the4658DTthe other4659JJother side4660NNside ,4661,, I4662PPI can4663MDcan certainly4664RBcertainly understand4665VVunderstand why4666WRBwhy somebody4667NNsomebody would4668MDwould believe4669VVbelieve that4670IN/thatthat they4671PPthey 're4672VBPbe trying4673VVGtry to4674TOto convert4675VVconvert you4676PPyou to4677TOto Christianity4678NNChristianity .4679SENT. After4680INafter all4681DTall ,4682,, the4683DTthe hallmark4684NNhallmark of4685INof the4686DTthe establishment4687NNestablishment in4688INin Professor4689NPProfessor McConnell4690NPMcConnell 's4691POS's article4692NNarticle ,4693,, which4694WDTwhich we4695PPwe 're4696VBPbe largely4697RBlargely relying4698VVGrely on4699INon ,4700,, is4701VBZbe seeking4702VVGseek to4703TOto inculcate4704VVinculcate a4705DTa certain4706JJcertain religious4707JJreligious belief4708NNbelief ,4709,, a4710DTa certain4711JJcertain sectarian4712JJsectarian belief4713NNbelief .4714SENT. Now4715RBnow ...4716:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]4717LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well4718UHWell ,4719,, but4720CCbut if4721INif you4722PPyou look4723VVPlook at4724INat his4725PP$his ...4726:... of4727INof course4728NNcourse ,4729,, you4730PPyou have4731VHPhave .4732SENT. His4733PP$his brief4734NNbrief highlights4735VVZhighlight six4736CDsix things4737NNSthing ...4738:... [MR. CARVIN]4739LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right4740RBright .4741SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]4742LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...4743:... that4744IN/thatthat he4745PPhe 'd4746MDwould say4747VVsay would4748MDwould be4749VBbe ...4750:... and4751CCand it4752PPit starts4753VVZstart out4754RPout with4755INwith the4756DTthe government4757NNgovernment establishing4758VVGestablish a4759DTa church4760NNchurch .4761SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4762LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right4763NPRight .4764SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]4765LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] All4766DTall right4767NNright .4768SENT. We4769PPwe 'll4770MDwill give4771VVgive you4772PPyou that4773DTthat .4774SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4775LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right4776NPRight .4777SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]4778LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You4779PPyou know4780VVPknow ,4781,, the4782DTthe ...4783:... the4784DTthe requiring4785VVGrequire people4786NNSpeople to4787TOto pay4788VVpay for4789INfor the4790DTthe church4791NNchurch ,4792,, prohibiting4793VVGprohibit ...4794:... imposing4795VVGimpose burdens4796NNSburden on4797INon people4798NNSpeople who4799WPwho do4800VVPdo n't4801RBn't believe4802VVbelieve .4803SENT. I4804PPI mean4805VVPmean ,4806,, all4807DTall pretty4808JJpretty stark4809JJstark items4810NNSitem that4811RBthat ...4812:... that4813IN/thatthat certainly4814RBcertainly under4815INunder ...4816:... underlay4817VVDunderlie the4818DTthe Establishment4819NNestablishment Clause4820NNclause when4821WRBwhen it4822PPit was4823VBDbe adopted4824VVNadopt .4825SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4826LOC[MR. CARVIN] Yes4827NPYes .4828SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]4829LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] But4830CCbut you4831PPyou 're4832VBPbe certainly4833RBcertainly ...4834:... I4835PPI do4836VVPdo n't4837RBn't understand4838VVunderstand your4839PP$your position4840NNposition to4841TOto be4842VBbe limited4843VVNlimit in4844INin that4845DTthat way4846NNway .4847SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4848LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again4849RBagain ,4850,, we4851PPwe could4852MDcould certainly4853RBcertainly say4854VVsay that4855DTthat kind4856NNkind of4857INof direct4858JJdirect formal4859JJformal coercion4860NNcoercion is4861VBZbe the4862DTthe only4863JJonly thing4864NNthing reached4865VVNreach by4866INby the4867DTthe Establishment4868NNestablishment Clause4869NNclause .4870SENT. Both4871CCboth of4872INof the4873DTthe opinions4874NNSopinion we4875PPwe rely4876VVPrely on4877RPon ,4878,, Town4879NPTown of4880INof Greece4881NPGreece and4882CCand Allegheny4883NPAllegheny County4884NPCounty ,4885,, go4886VVPgo a4887DTa bit4888NNbit further4889RBRfurther ,4890,, and4891CCand they4892PPthey say4893VVPsay in4894INin the4895DTthe real4896JJreal world4897NNworld ,4898,, we4899PPwe want4900VVPwant to4901TOto make4902VVmake sure4903JJsure we4904PPwe 're4905VBPbe not4906RBnot creating4907VVGcreate the4908DTthe same4909JJsame dangers4910NNSdanger when4911WRBwhen the4912DTthe government4913NNgovernment is4914VBZbe trying4915VVGtry to4916TOto create4917VVcreate indirectly4918RBindirectly what4919WPwhat it4920PPit could4921MDcould n't4922RBn't do4923VVdo directly4924RBdirectly .4925SENT. Again4926RBagain ,4927,, this4928DTthis will4929MDwill be4930VBbe a4931DTa rare4932JJrare exception4933NNexception ,4934,, and4935CCand they4936PPthey can4937MDcan 't4938RB't provide4939VVprovide a4940DTa real-world4941NNreal-world hypothetical4942JJhypothetical .4943SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4944LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So4945INso we4946PPwe go4947VVPgo back4948RBback to4949TOto Justice4950NPJustice ...4951:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4952LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But4953CCbut do4954VVdo I4955PPI ...4956:... [MR. CARVIN]4957LOC[MR. CARVIN] If4958INif the4959DTthe Court4960NPCourt does4961VVZdo n't4962RBn't want4963VVwant to4964TOto go4965VVgo that4966IN/thatthat far4967RBfar ...4968:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4969LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So4970INso we4971PPwe go4972VVPgo back4973RBback to4974TOto Justice4975NPJustice Gorsuch4976NPGorsuch .4977SENT. [MR. CARVIN]4978LOC[MR. CARVIN] Yes4979NPYes .4980SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4981LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I4982PPI hear4983VVPhear you4984PPyou using4985VVGuse the4986DTthe word4987NNword "4988``" de4989FWde facto4990FWfacto "4991''" ...4992:... "4993``" extreme4994JJextreme proselytization4995NNproselytization ,4996,, "4997''" "4998``" de4999FWde facto5000FWfacto coercion5001NNcoercion .5002SENT. "5003''" [MR. CARVIN]5004LOC[MR. CARVIN] Right5005NPRight .5006SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5007LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] "5008``" Excessive5009JJexcessive promotion5010NNpromotion or5011CCor proselytization5012NNproselytization .5013SENT. "5014``" It5015PPit is5016VBZbe the5017DTthe endorsement5018NNendorsement test5019NNtest .5020SENT. [MR. CARVIN]5021LOC[MR. CARVIN] Again5022NPAgain ...5023:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5024LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Now5025RBnow you5026PPyou may5027MDmay make5028VVmake an5029DTan argument5030NNargument like5031INlike your5032PP$your colleague5033NNcolleague that5034IN/thatthat this5035DTthis has5036VHZhave to5037TOto do5038VVdo more5039JJRmore with5040INwith tradition5041NNtradition than5042INthan it5043PPit does5044VVZdo with5045INwith coercion5046NNcoercion ,5047,, but5048CCbut it5049PPit is5050VBZbe endorsement5051NNendorsement .5052SENT. [MR. CARVIN]5053LOC[MR. CARVIN] To5054TOTo make5055VVmake it5056PPit as5057RBas simple5058JJsimple as5059INas I5060PPI can5061MDcan :5062:: Under5063INunder the5064DTthe endorsement5065NNendorsement test5066NNtest ,5067,, a5068DTa sectarian5069JJsectarian symbol5070NNsymbol of5071INof a5072DTa creche5073NNcreche is5074VBZbe no5075RBno good5076JJgood .5077SENT. Under5078INunder our5079PP$our test5080NNtest ,5081,, it5082PPit 's5083VBZbe perfectly5084RBperfectly fine5085JJfine because5086INbecause it5087PPit 's5088VBZbe ...5089:... it5090PPit 's5091VBZbe achieving5092VVGachieve a5093DTa ...5094:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5095LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So5096INso you5097PPyou would5098MDwould overturn5099VVoverturn Allegheny5100NPAllegheny under5101INunder that5102DTthat theory5103NNtheory ?5104SENT? [MR. CARVIN]5105LOC[MR. CARVIN] I5106PPI would5107MDwould endorse5108VVendorse the5109DTthe Town5110NPTown of5111INof Greece5112NPGreece test5113NNtest ,5114,, which5115WDTwhich says5116VVZsay sectarian5117JJsectarian prayer5118NNprayer ,5119,, purely5120RBpurely sectarian5121JJsectarian prayer5122NNprayer ,5123,, is5124VBZbe okay5125JJokay .5126SENT. Sectarian5127JJsectarian speech5128NNspeech in5129INin the5130DTthe symbolic5131JJsymbolic ...5132:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5133LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But5134CCbut would5135MDwould you5136PPyou proselytize5137VVproselytize that5138DTthat test5139NNtest ?5140SENT? [MR. CARVIN]5141LOC[MR. CARVIN] Excuse5142NNexcuse me5143PPme ?5144SENT? [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5145LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You5146PPyou endorse5147VVPendorse the5148DTthe test5149NNtest .5150SENT. Do5151VVdo you5152PPyou proselytize5153VVproselytize for5154INfor it5155PPit ?5156SENT? [5157SYM[ LAUGHTER5158NNlaughter ]5159SYM] [MR. CARVIN]5160LOC[MR. CARVIN] We5161PPwe ...5162:... we5163PPwe ...5164:... we5165PPwe ...5166:... we5167PPwe are5168VBPbe actually5169RBactually adopting5170VVGadopt the5171DTthe word5172NNword "5173``" proselytize5174VVproselytize "5175''" from5176INfrom the5177DTthe Town5178NPTown of5179INof Greece5180NPGreece test5181NNtest .5182SENT. And5183CCand ,5184,, again5185RBagain ,5186,, my5187PP$my final5188JJfinal point5189NNpoint on5190INon all5191DTall of5192INof this5193DTthis is5194VBZbe ,5195,, in5196INin the5197DTthe symbolic5198JJsymbolic context5199NNcontext ,5200,, this5201DTthis distinction5202NNdistinction is5203VBZbe not5204RBnot of5205INof real-world5206NNreal-world consequence5207NNconsequence because5208INbecause all5209DTall symbols5210NNSsymbol are5211VBPbe sectarian5212JJsectarian ,5213,, and5214CCand if5215INif you5216PPyou ban5217VVPban sectarian5218JJsectarian symbols5219NNSsymbol ,5220,, then5221RBthen you5222PPyou are5223VBPbe necessarily5224RBnecessarily banning5225VVGban all5226DTall religious5227JJreligious symbols5228NNSsymbol ,5229,, which5230WDTwhich evinces5231VVZevince hostility5232NNhostility and5233CCand is5234VBZbe in5235INin stark5236JJstark tension5237NNtension with5238INwith the5239DTthe Free5240NPFree Exercise5241NNexercise and5242CCand Free5243JJfree Speech5244NNspeech Clause5245NNclause .5246SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5247LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5248VVthank you5249PPyou ,5250,, counsel5251NNcounsel .5252SENT. General5253NPGeneral Wall5254NPWall .5255SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]5256LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Mr5257NPMr .5258SENT. Chief5259NPChief Justice5260NPJustice ,5261,, and5262CCand may5263MDmay it5264PPit please5265VVplease the5266DTthe Court5267NPCourt :5268:: Three5269CDThree points5270NNSpoint :5271:: First5272RBfirst ,5273,, under5274INunder Town5275NPTown of5276INof Greece5277NPGreece ,5278,, the5279DTthe memorial5280JJmemorial cross5281NNcross is5282VBZbe permissible5283JJpermissible because5284INbecause it5285PPit falls5286VVZfall within5287INwithin our5288PP$our nation5289NNnation 's5290POS's long5291JJlong tradition5292NNtradition of5293INof accommodating5294VVGaccommodate religious5295JJreligious speech5296NNspeech or5297CCor symbols5298NNSsymbol in5299INin civic5300JJcivic life5301NNlife .5302SENT. Second5303RBsecond ,5304,, adhering5305VVGadhere to5306TOto Town5307NPTown of5308INof Greece5309NPGreece would5310MDwould easily5311RBeasily resolve5312VVresolve ...5313:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5314LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] In5315INin all5316DTall places5317NNSplace ?5318SENT? Meaning5319VVGmean I5320PPI do5321VVPdo n't5322RBn't know5323VVknow of5324INof a5325DTa founding5326JJfounding father5327NNfather ,5328,, town5329NNtown or5330CCor state5331NNstate ,5332,, that5333WDTthat put5334VVDput up5335RPup a5336DTa 40-foot5337JJ40-foot cross5338NNcross on5339INon government5340NNgovernment property5341NNproperty .5342SENT. So5343RBso we5344PPwe do5345VVPdo n't5346RBn't have5347VHhave a5348DTa long5349JJlong tradition5350NNtradition of5351INof that5352DTthat .5353SENT. It5354PPit 's5355VBZbe sectarian5356JJsectarian .5357SENT. We5358PPwe have5359VHPhave a5360DTa lot5361NNlot of5362INof founding5363JJfounding fathers5364NNSfather ,5365,, including5366VVGinclude George5367NPGeorge Washington5368NPWashington ,5369,, who5370WPwho was5371VBDbe exceedingly5372RBexceedingly careful5373JJcareful to5374TOto ensure5375VVensure that5376IN/thatthat references5377NNSreference to5378TOto God5379NPGod were5380VBDbe as5381RBas neutral5382JJneutral as5383INas possible5384JJpossible to5385TOto as5386INas many5387JJmany religions5388NNSreligion as5389INas possible5390JJpossible .5391SENT. So5392RBso it5393PPit can5394MDcan 't5395RB't be5396VBbe that5397IN/thatthat all5398DTall sectarian5399JJsectarian symbols5400NNSsymbol ,5401,, whether5402INwhether it5403PPit 's5404VBZbe a5405DTa cross5406NNcross or5407CCor Jesus5408NPJesus Christ5409NPChrist or5410CCor some5411DTsome other5412JJother symbol5413NNsymbol ,5414,, is5415VBZbe within5416INwithin our5417PP$our tradition5418NNtradition merely5419RBmerely because5420INbecause we5421PPwe say5422VVPsay "5423''" In5424INin God5425NPGod we5426PPwe trust5427VVPtrust .5428SENT. "5429''" [MR. WALL J.B.]5430LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well5431UHWell ,5432,, two5433CDtwo different5434JJdifferent ...5435:... two5436CDtwo things5437NNSthing ,5438,, Justice5439NPJustice Sotomayor5440NPSotomayor .5441SENT. First5442RBfirst ,5443,, obviously5444RBobviously ,5445,, this5446DTthis symbol5447NNsymbol has5448VHZhave a5449DTa unique5450JJunique history5451NNhistory ,5452,, as5453INas the5454DTthe Buono5455NPBuono plurality5456NNplurality detailed5457JJdetailed .5458SENT. The5459DTthe VFW5460JJVFW brief5461NNbrief ,5462,, I5463PPI think5464VVPthink ,5465,, does5466VVZdo a5467DTa nice5468JJnice job5469NNjob of5470INof this5471DTthis ,5472,, that5473IN/thatthat ,5474,, to5475TOto the5476DTthe World5477NPWorld War5478NPWar I5479NNI generation5480NNgeneration ,5481,, though5482INthough it5483PPit 's5484VBZbe now5485RBnow distant5486JJdistant in5487INin time5488NNtime ,5489,, that5490WDTthat was5491VBDbe a5492DTa secular5493JJsecular or5494CCor civic5495JJcivic meaning5496NNmeaning ...5497:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5498LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But5499CCbut you5500PPyou 're5501VBPbe ...5502:... [MR. WALL J.B.]5503LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...5504:... that5505IN/thatthat it5506PPit took5507VVDtake on5508INon to5509TOto that5510DTthat generation5511NNgeneration .5512SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5513LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But5514CCbut you5515PPyou limited5516VVDlimit your5517PP$your point5518NNpoint to5519TOto one5520CDone generalized5521VVNgeneralize point5522NNpoint ,5523,, which5524WDTwhich means5525VVZmean we5526PPwe could5527MDcould put5528VVput it5529PPit up5530RPup today5531NNtoday to5532TOto memorialize5533VVmemorialize all5534DTall Vietnam5535NPVietnam vets5536NNSvet ,5537,, despite5538INdespite the5539DTthe fact5540NNfact that5541IN/thatthat all5542DTall Vietnam5543NPVietnam vets5544NNSvet were5545VBDbe not5546RBnot Christian5547JJChristian ...5548:... [MR. WALL J.B.]5549LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Oh5550NPOh ...5551:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5552LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5553:... and5554CCand that5555IN/thatthat many5556JJmany of5557INof them5558PPthem would5559MDwould feel5560VVfeel ...5561:... [MR. WALL J.B.]5562LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Yes5563NPYes ,5564,, just5565RBjust as5566INas Mr5567NPMr .5568SENT. Katyal5569NPKatyal said5570VVDsay ,5571,, when5572WRBwhen they5573PPthey found5574VVDfind the5575DTthe cross5576NNcross at5577INat Ground5578NPGround Zero5579NPZero in5580INin the5581DTthe rubble5582NNrubble and5583CCand that5584WDTthat became5585VVDbecome a5586DTa makeshift5587JJmakeshift shrine5588NNshrine in5589INin the5590DTthe weeks5591NNSweek after5592INafter 95593CD9 /5594SYM/ 115595CD@card@ ,5596,, I5597PPI do5598VVPdo n't5599RBn't think5600VVthink that5601DTthat that5602WDTthat violated5603VVDviolate the5604DTthe Establishment5605NNestablishment Clause5606NNclause ,5607,, just5608RBjust as5609INas it5610PPit does5611VVZdo n't5612RBn't now5613RBnow when5614WRBwhen it5615PPit sits5616VVZsit in5617INin the5618DTthe 95619CD9 /5620SYM/ 115621CD@card@ museum5622NNmuseum owned5623VVNown by5624INby the5625DTthe Port5626NPPort Authority5627NPAuthority .5628SENT. But5629CCbut the5630DTthe second5631JJsecond point5632NNpoint I5633PPI 'd5634MDwould make5635VVmake is5636VBZbe I5637PPI understand5638VVPunderstand Town5639NPTown of5640INof Greece5641NPGreece and5642CCand the5643DTthe Allegheny5644NPAllegheny County5645NPCounty dissent5646NNdissent to5647TOto say5648VVsay you5649PPyou either5650CCeither trace5651VVtrace a5652DTa practice5653NNpractice back5654RBback to5655TOto the5656DTthe founding5657NNfounding or5658CCor you5659PPyou look5660VVPlook to5661TOto see5662VVsee whether5663INwhether it5664PPit 's5665VBZbe akin5666JJakin to5667TOto the5668DTthe kind5669NNkind of5670INof acknowledgments5671NNSacknowledgment that5672IN/thatthat the5673DTthe founders5674NNSfounder and5675CCand the5676DTthe early5677JJearly generation5678NNgeneration thought5679NNthought were5680VBDbe permissible5681JJpermissible ,5682,, and5683CCand you5684PPyou ask5685VVPask whether5686INwhether it5687PPit presents5688VVZpresent any5689DTany greater5690JJRgreat dangers5691NNSdanger than5692INthan that5693DTthat .5694SENT. Here5695RBhere ,5696,, crosses5697NNScrosse have5698VHPhave been5699VBNbe memorials5700NNSmemorial since5701INsince before5702INbefore the5703DTthe founding5704NNfounding .5705SENT. They5706PPthey have5707VHPhave been5708VBNbe war5709NNwar memorials5710NNSmemorial since5711INsince the5712DTthe post-Civil5713NPpost-Civil War5714NPWar generation5715NNgeneration ...5716:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5717LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Does5718VVZdo it5719PPit make5720VVmake any5721DTany difference5722NNdifference ...5723:... [MR. WALL J.B.]5724LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...5725:... the5726DTthe one5727CDone that5728WDTthat incorporated5729VVDincorporate ...5730:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5731LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...5732:... the5733DTthe change5734NNchange from5735INfrom the5736DTthe founding5737NNfounding ,5738,, this5739DTthis was5740VBDbe an5741DTan almost5742RBalmost overwhelmingly5743RBoverwhelmingly Christian5744JJChristian country5745NNcountry ,5746,, but5747CCbut now5748RBnow we5749PPwe 're5750VBPbe told5751VVNtell that5752IN/thatthat percent5753NNpercent of5754INof the5755DTthe U5756NPU .5757SENT. S5758NPS .5759SENT. population5760NNpopulation does5761VVZdo not5762RBnot adhere5763VVadhere to5764TOto a5765DTa Christian5766JJChristian faith5767NNfaith ,5768,, does5769VVZdo ...5770:... does5771VVZdo that5772DTthat change5773NNchange make5774VVmake any5775DTany difference5776NNdifference ?5777SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]5778LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I5779PPI do5780VVPdo n't5781RBn't think5782VVthink it5783PPit affects5784VVZaffect whether5785INwhether the5786DTthe cross5787NNcross took5788VVDtake on5789INon in5790INin the5791DTthe wake5792NNwake of5793INof the5794DTthe Great5795NPGreat War5796NPWar a5797DTa secular5798JJsecular meaning5799NNmeaning and5800CCand whether5801INwhether that5802WDTthat 's5803VBZbe the5804DTthe meaning5805NNmeaning for5806INfor which5807WDTwhich the5808DTthe mothers5809NNSmother erected5810VVDerect it5811PPit and5812CCand the5813DTthe commission5814NNcommission now5815RBnow maintains5816VVZmaintain it5817PPit .5818SENT. So5819RBso ,5820,, when5821WRBwhen Canada5822NPCanada gave5823VVDgive us5824PPus the5825DTthe Canadian5826JJCanadian Cross5827NPCross of5828INof Sacrifice5829NNsacrifice to5830TOto honor5831VVhonor Americans5832NPSAmericans who5833WPwho went5834VVDgo north5835RBnorth and5836CCand joined5837VVDjoin the5838DTthe Canadian5839JJCanadian forces5840NNSforce to5841TOto fight5842VVfight in5843INin the5844DTthe war5845NNwar before5846INbefore America5847NPAmerica entered5848VVDenter ,5849,, I5850PPI have5851VHPhave no5852DTno reason5853NNreason to5854TOto believe5855VVbelieve that5856IN/thatthat all5857DTall of5858INof those5859DTthose Americans5860NPSAmericans were5861VBDbe Christian5862JJChristian or5863CCor that5864IN/thatthat Canada5865NPCanada thought5866VVDthink they5867PPthey were5868VBDbe ,5869,, but5870CCbut it5871PPit thought5872VVDthink that5873IN/thatthat a5874DTa cross5875NNcross with5876INwith a5877DTa sword5878NNsword running5879VVGrun down5880INdown it5881PPit in5882INin Arlington5883NPArlington would5884MDwould commemorate5885VVcommemorate all5886DTall of5887INof them5888PPthem .5889SENT. And5890CCand I5891PPI think5892VVPthink that5893DTthat 's5894VBZbe the5895DTthe meaning5896NNmeaning that5897IN/thatthat the5898DTthe Buono5899NPBuono plurality5900NNplurality correctly5901RBcorrectly said5902VVDsay in5903INin that5904DTthat context5905NNcontext that5906IN/thatthat symbol5907NNsymbol carries5908VVZcarry .5909SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5910LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Is5911VBZbe n't5912RBn't a5913DTa cemetery5914NNcemetery substantially5915RBsubstantially different5916JJdifferent than5917INthan the5918DTthe middle5919NNmiddle of5920INof a5921DTa town5922NNtown where5923WRBwhere something5924NNsomething is5925VBZbe 405926CD@card@ foot5927NNfoot high5928JJhigh ?5929SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]5930LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well5931UHWell ...5932:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5933LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I5934PPI mean5935VVPmean ,5936,, I5937PPI have5938VHPhave pictures5939NNSpicture of5940INof this5941DTthis cross5942NNcross .5943SENT. It5944PPit 's5945VBZbe the5946DTthe only5947JJonly thing5948NNthing that5949WDTthat 's5950VBZbe that5951IN/thatthat high5952JJhigh .5953SENT. It5954PPit dwarfs5955VVZdwarf buildings5956NNSbuilding .5957SENT. It5958PPit dwarfs5959VVZdwarf people5960NNSpeople .5961SENT. You5962PPyou can5963MDcan barely5964RBbarely see5965VVsee them5966PPthem in5967INin the5968DTthe pictures5969NNSpicture .5970SENT. [MR. WALL J.B.]5971LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I5972PPI mean5973VVPmean ,5974,, with5975INwith all5976DTall ...5977:... all5978DTall respect5979NNrespect ,5980,, Justice5981NPJustice Sotomayor5982NPSotomayor ,5983,, and5984CCand ,5985,, obviously5986RBobviously ,5987,, this5988DTthis is5989VBZbe more5990JJRmore under5991INunder the5992DTthe reasonable5993JJreasonable observer5994NNobserver test5995NNtest and5996CCand we5997PPwe 've5998VHPhave asked5999VVNask the6000DTthe Court6001NPCourt to6002TOto apply6003VVapply Town6004NPTown of6005INof Greece6006NPGreece ,6007,, but6008CCbut having6009VHGhave been6010VBNbe out6011RPout to6012TOto the6013DTthe site6014NNsite ,6015,, it6016PPit is6017VBZbe certainly6018RBcertainly a6019DTa ...6020:... a6021DTa tall6022JJtall cross6023NNcross ,6024,, but6025CCbut it6026PPit has6027VHZhave words6028NNSword on6029INon it6030PPit that6031WDTthat are6032VBPbe visible6033JJvisible from6034INfrom hundreds6035NNShundred of6036INof feet6037NNSfoot away6038RBaway that6039WDTthat are6040VBPbe secular6041JJsecular words6042NNSword .6043SENT. It6044PPit 's6045VBZbe in6046INin the6047DTthe midst6048NNmidst of6049INof a6050DTa number6051NNnumber of6052INof other6053JJother memorials6054NNSmemorial that6055IN/thatthat you6056PPyou can6057MDcan see6058VVsee .6059SENT. It6060PPit 's6061VHZhave been6062VBNbe part6063NNpart of6064INof a6065DTa memorial6066JJmemorial park6067NNpark for6068INfor decades6069NNSdecade before6070INbefore litigation6071NNlitigation was6072VBDbe ever6073RBever brought6074VVNbring .6075SENT. I6076PPI ...6077:... I6078PPI understand6079VVPunderstand the6080DTthe concern6081NNconcern if6082INif you6083PPyou just6084RBjust look6085VVPlook at6086INat the6087DTthe size6088NNsize ,6089,, but6090CCbut that6091WDTthat ignores6092VVZignore the6093DTthe fact6094NNfact that6095IN/thatthat there6096EXthere 's6097VBZbe "6098``" U6099NPU .6100SENT. S6101NPS .6102SENT. "6103``" on6104INon both6105DTboth sides6106NNSside of6107INof the6108DTthe cross6109NNcross ,6110,, the6111DTthe words6112NNSword ,6113,, the6114DTthe plaque6115NNplaque ...6116:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6117LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So6118RBso ,6119,, Mr6120NPMr .6121SENT. Wall6122NPWall ,6123,, just6124RBjust to6125TOto ...6126:... [MR. WALL J.B.]6127LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...6128:... and6129CCand all6130DTall of6131INof the6132DTthe surrounding6133JJsurrounding context6134NNcontext .6135SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6136LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...6137:... figure6138VVfigure out6139RPout where6140WRBwhere you6141PPyou want6142VVPwant to6143TOto draw6144VVdraw the6145DTthe line6146NNline ,6147,, just6148RBjust take6149VVtake a6150DTa lot6151NNlot ...6152:... I6153PPI 'm6154VBPbe going6155VVGgo to6156TOto give6157VVgive you6158PPyou an6159DTan example6160NNexample of6161INof a6162DTa bunch6163NNbunch of6164INof different6165JJdifferent crosses6166NNScrosse .6167SENT. So6168RBso one6169PPone is6170VBZbe World6171NPWorld War6172NPWar I6173PPI cross6174VVPcross erected6175VVNerect many6176JJmany ,6177,, many6178JJmany years6179NNSyear ago6180RBago .6181SENT. Another6182DTanother is6183VBZbe World6184NPWorld War6185NPWar I6186PPI cross6187VVPcross erected6188VVNerect now6189RBnow .6190SENT. A6191DTa third6192NNthird is6193VBZbe another6194DTanother war6195NNwar memorial6196NNmemorial cross6197NNcross .6198SENT. A6199DTa fourth6200JJfourth is6201VBZbe a6202DTa memorial6203JJmemorial cross6204NNcross that6205WDTthat has6206VHZhave nothing6207NNnothing to6208TOto do6209VVdo with6210INwith any6211DTany war6212NNwar .6213SENT. A6214DTa fifth6215NNfifth ...6216:... are6217VBPbe we6218PPwe up6219RPup to6220TOto five6221CDfive ?6222SENT? A6223DTa fifth6224NNfifth is6225VBZbe not6226RBnot a6227DTa memorial6228JJmemorial cross6229NNcross at6230INat all6231DTall ,6232,, just6233RBjust a6234DTa cross6235NNcross ,6236,, it6237PPit 's6238VBZbe a6239DTa cross6240NNcross ,6241,, because6242INbecause a6243DTa community6244NNcommunity wants6245VVZwant to6246TOto put6247VVput up6248RPup a6249DTa cross6250NNcross .6251SENT. Are6252VBPbe they6253PPthey all6254RBall okay6255JJokay ?6256SENT? Are6257VBPbe some6258DTsome not6259RBnot okay6260JJokay ?6261SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]6262LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I6263PPI think6264VVPthink the6265DTthe first6266JJfirst three6267CDthree are6268VBPbe clearly6269RBclearly permissible6270JJpermissible .6271SENT. Assuming6272VVGassume the6273DTthe fourth6274JJfourth acknowledges6275VVZacknowledge the6276DTthe non-war6277JJnon-war purpose6278NNpurpose to6279TOto which6280WDTwhich the6281DTthe cross6282NNcross is6283VBZbe put6284VVNput ,6285,, so6286RBso the6287DTthe cross6288NNcross that6289WDTthat commemorates6290VVZcommemorate the6291DTthe school6292NNschool shooting6293NNshooting or6294CCor the6295DTthe Star6296NPStar of6297INof David6298NPDavid that6299WDTthat commemorates6300VVZcommemorate the6301DTthe Holocaust6302NNholocaust ,6303,, that6304WDTthat seems6305VVZseem to6306TOto us6307PPus perfectly6308RBperfectly permissible6309JJpermissible ,6310,, no6311DTno more6312RBRmore coercive6313JJcoercive or6314CCor proselytizing6315VVGproselytize than6316INthan things6317NNSthing that6318IN/thatthat the6319DTthe founders6320NNSfounder thought6321VVDthink were6322VBDbe perfectly6323RBperfectly permissible6324JJpermissible .6325SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6326LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And6327CCand the6328DTthe fifth6329NNfifth ?6330SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]6331LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] The6332DTthe last6333JJlast strikes6334NNSstrike me6335PPme as6336RBas ...6337:... as6338RBas potentially6339RBpotentially quite6340RBquite problematic6341JJproblematic .6342SENT. When6343WRBwhen ...6344:... when6345WRBwhen the6346DTthe Court6347NPCourt ...6348:... when6349WRBwhen Justice6350NPJustice Kennedy6351NPKennedy says6352VVZsay in6353INin Allegheny6354NPAllegheny County6355NPCounty ,6356,, and6357CCand the6358DTthe Court6359NPCourt picks6360VVZpick up6361RPup on6362INon it6363PPit in6364INin Town6365NPTown of6366INof Greece6367NPGreece ,6368,, that6369WDTthat you6370PPyou can6371MDcan 't6372RB't proselytize6373VVproselytize ,6374,, it6375PPit understands6376VVZunderstand that6377IN/thatthat ,6378,, Justice6379NPJustice Gorsuch6380NPGorsuch ,6381,, there6382EXthere 's6383VBZbe a6384DTa much6385RBmuch higher6386JJRhigh standard6387NNstandard than6388INthan ...6389:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]6390LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Even6391RBeven though6392INthough all6393RBall five6394CDfive ...6395:... [MR. WALL J.B.]6396LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...6397:... are6398VBPbe you6399PPyou offended6400VVNoffend or6401CCor excluded6402VVNexclude .6403SENT. It6404PPit ...6405:... it6406PPit understands6407VVZunderstand that6408IN/thatthat as6409RBas are6410VBPbe you6411PPyou threatening6412VVGthreaten damnation6413NNdamnation ,6414,, the6415DTthe Court6416NPCourt says6417VVZsay ,6418,, are6419VBPbe you6420PPyou trying6421VVGtry to6422TOto force6423VVforce people6424NNSpeople into6425INinto the6426DTthe pews6427NNSpew ,6428,, are6429VBPbe you6430PPyou denigrating6431VVGdenigrate another6432DTanother faith6433NNfaith ?6434SENT? If6435INif a6436DTa town6437NNtown just6438RBjust starts6439VVZstart putting6440VVGput up6441RPup naked6442JJnaked ,6443,, unadorned6444JJunadorned crosses6445NNScrosse ...6446:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]6447LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But6448CCbut ...6449:... but6450CCbut all6451DTall five6452CDfive crosses6453NNScrosse ...6454:... [MR. WALL J.B.]6455LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...6456:... without6457INwithout any6458DTany clear6459JJclear secular6460JJsecular reason6461NNreason ...6462:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]6463LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Excuse6464VVexcuse me6465PPme .6466SENT. All6467DTall five6468CDfive crosses6469NNScrosse in6470INin Justice6471NPJustice Kagan6472NPKagan 's6473POS's hypothetical6474JJhypothetical ,6475,, I6476PPI believe6477VVPbelieve ,6478,, are6479VBPbe the6480DTthe same6481JJsame .6482SENT. [MR. WALL J.B.]6483LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well6484UHWell ,6485,, no6486UHno .6487SENT. Sorry6488RBsorry ,6489,, I6490PPI took6491VVDtake ...6492:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]6493LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Of6494INof course6495NNcourse ,6496,, the6497DTthe purpose6498NNpurpose articulated6499VVNarticulate ,6500,, unstated6501VVNunstate or6502CCor stated6503VVNstate ,6504,, but6505CCbut not6506RBnot visible6507JJvisible ,6508,, might6509MDmight be6510VBbe different6511JJdifferent .6512SENT. But6513CCbut the6514DTthe crosses6515NNScrosse are6516VBPbe all6517PDTall the6518DTthe same6519JJsame .6520SENT. And6521CCand you6522PPyou 're6523VBPbe saying6524VVGsay it6525PPit depends6526VVZdepend on6527INon the6528DTthe implicit6529JJimplicit purpose6530NNpurpose or6531CCor reason6532NNreason it6533PPit was6534VBDbe put6535VVNput up6536RPup ?6537SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]6538LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Maybe6539RBmaybe I6540PPI misunderstood6541VVDmisunderstand the6542DTthe hypotheticals6543NNShypotheticals .6544SENT. When6545WRBwhen she6546PPshe ...6547:... when6548WRBwhen ...6549:... when6550WRBwhen Justice6551NPJustice Kagan6552NPKagan was6553VBDbe positing6554VVGposit war6555NNwar memorials6556NNSmemorial or6557CCor a6558DTa cross6559NNcross dedicated6560VVNdedicate for6561INfor some6562DTsome other6563JJother secular6564NNsecular or6565CCor civic6566JJcivic reason6567NNreason ,6568,, all6569RBall of6570INof the6571DTthe examples6572NNSexample in6573INin the6574DTthe real6575JJreal world6576NNworld I6577PPI 'm6578VBPbe aware6579JJaware of6580INof make6581VVPmake that6582IN/thatthat clear6583JJclear in6584INin some6585DTsome way6586NNway .6587SENT. The6588DTthe Argonne6589NPArgonne Cross6590NPCross ,6591,, as6592RBas to6593TOto those6594DTthose who6595WPwho perished6596VVDperish in6597INin France6598NPFrance ,6599,, I6600PPI ...6601:... I6602PPI took6603VVDtake the6604DTthe fifth6605JJfifth one6606CDone to6607TOto be6608VBbe the6609DTthe ...6610:... the6611DTthe naked6612JJnaked unadorned6613JJunadorned cross6614NNcross ,6615,, and6616CCand that6617WDTthat seems6618VVZseem to6619TOto me6620PPme to6621TOto get6622VVget much6623RBmuch closer6624JJRclose ...6625:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]6626LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] So6627RBso ,6628,, if6629INif that6630WDTthat 's6631VBZbe put6632VVNput up6633RPup as6634INas a6635DTa war6636NNwar memorial6637NNmemorial but6638CCbut it6639PPit does6640VVZdo n't6641RBn't have6642VHhave words6643NNSword around6644INaround it6645PPit ,6646,, that6647WDTthat has6648VHZhave to6649TOto come6650VVcome down6651RPdown ?6652SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]6653LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Justice6654NPJustice Kavanaugh6655NPKavanaugh ,6656,, I6657PPI 'll6658MDwill grant6659VVgrant you6660PPyou that6661IN/thatthat that6662DTthat 's6663VBZbe the6664DTthe ...6665:... the6666DTthe hardest6667JJShard case6668NNcase ,6669,, and6670CCand where6671WRBwhere the6672DTthe town6673NNtown just6674RBjust says6675VVZsay we6676PPwe 're6677VBPbe putting6678VVGput it6679PPit up6680RPup as6681INas a6682DTa war6683NNwar memorial6684NNmemorial ,6685,, it6686PPit ...6687:... it6688PPit may6689MDmay be6690VBbe permissible6691JJpermissible ,6692,, as6693RBas long6694RBlong as6695INas the6696DTthe other6697JJother side6698NNside will6699MDwill grant6700VVgrant that6701IN/thatthat all6702DTall of6703INof the6704DTthe hard6705JJhard cases6706NNScase on6707INon this6708DTthis test6709NNtest are6710VBPbe imaginary6711JJimaginary .6712SENT. You6713PPyou can6714MDcan 't6715RB't find6716VVfind a6717DTa single6718JJsingle one6719CDone that6720WDTthat looks6721VVZlook like6722INlike that6723DTthat .6724SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6725LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could6726MDcould ...6727:... [MR. WALL J.B.]6728LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] The6729DTthe problem6730NNproblem with6731INwith the6732DTthe current6733JJcurrent law6734NNlaw is6735VBZbe that6736IN/thatthat all6737DTall of6738INof the6739DTthe current6740JJcurrent cases6741NNScase are6742VBPbe hard6743JJhard .6744SENT. This6745DTthis case6746NNcase ,6747,, which6748WDTwhich should6749MDshould have6750VHhave been6751VBNbe easy6752JJeasy ,6753,, has6754VHZhave a6755DTa four-volume6756JJfour-volume JA6757NPJa .6758SENT. We6759PPwe had6760VHDhave expert6761NNexpert witnesses6762NNSwitness and6763CCand ...6764:... and6765CCand mounds6766NNSmound of6767INof discovery6768NNdiscovery .6769SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6770LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could6771MDcould you6772PPyou take6773VVtake the6774DTthe ...6775:... the6776DTthe examples6777NNSexample I6778PPI gave6779VVDgive that6780WDTthat are6781VBPbe neither6782RBneither the6783DTthe first6784JJfirst nor6785CCnor the6786DTthe fifth6787JJfifth ,6788,, in6789INin other6790JJother words6791NNSword ,6792,, just6793RBjust the6794DTthe memorial6795JJmemorial crosses6796NNScrosse but6797CCbut not6798RBnot any6799DTany particular6800JJparticular relationship6801NNrelationship to6802TOto World6803NPWorld War6804NPWar I6805PPI ,6806,, and6807CCand ...6808:... and6809CCand erected6810VVDerect now6811RBnow .6812SENT. On6813RBon ...6814:... on6815INon what6816WPwhat theory6817NNtheory are6818VBPbe ...6819:... are6820VBPbe ...6821:... are6822VBPbe ...6823:... are6824VBPbe those6825DTthose permissible6826NNpermissible ?6827SENT? In6828INin other6829JJother words6830NNSword ,6831,, when6832WRBwhen ...6833:... when6834WRBwhen ...6835:... is6836VBZbe the6837DTthe theory6838NNtheory that6839IN/thatthat this6840DTthis is6841VBZbe a6842DTa universal6843JJuniversal symbol6844NNsymbol ?6845SENT? Is6846VBZbe the6847DTthe theory6848NNtheory that6849IN/thatthat this6850DTthis is6851VBZbe a6852DTa secular6853JJsecular symbol6854NNsymbol ?6855SENT? Is6856VBZbe the6857DTthe theory6858NNtheory that6859IN/thatthat this6860DTthis is6861VBZbe a6862DTa religious6863JJreligious symbol6864NNsymbol ,6865,, but6866CCbut that6867DTthat 's6868VBZbe perfectly6869RBperfectly fine6870JJfine ,6871,, to6872TOto adopt6873VVadopt one6874CDone religious6875JJreligious symbol6876NNsymbol rather6877RBrather than6878INthan another6879DTanother ?6880SENT? What6881WPWhat 's6882VBZbe the6883DTthe theory6884NNtheory ?6885SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]6886LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I6887PPI think6888VVPthink the6889DTthe theory6890NNtheory is6891VBZbe and6892CCand the6893DTthe real-world6894NNreal-world example6895NNexample I6896PPI 'd6897MDwould give6898VVgive is6899VBZbe the6900DTthe cross6901NNcross at6902INat Ground6903NPGround Zero6904NPZero .6905SENT. I6906PPI 'd6907MDwould point6908VVpoint the6909DTthe Court6910NNcourt to6911TOto the6912DTthe Second6913NPSecond Circuit6914NPCircuit case6915NNcase .6916SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6917LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I6918PPI think6919VVPthink that6920IN/thatthat that6921DTthat 's6922VBZbe an6923DTan odd6924JJodd kind6925NNkind of6926INof case6927NNcase ,6928,, so6929INso I6930PPI ...6931:... I6932PPI think6933VVPthink let6934NNlet 's6935VBZbe ...6936:... let6937VVlet 's6938VBZbe not6939RBnot talk6940NNtalk about6941INabout that6942WDTthat one6943CDone .6944SENT. Let6945NPLet 's6946POS's just6947JJjust talk6948NNtalk about6949INabout your6950PP$your ordinary6951JJordinary decision6952NNdecision to6953TOto erect6954VVerect ...6955:... to6956TOto ...6957:... you6958PPyou know6959VVPknow ,6960,, not6961RBnot anything6962NNanything that6963WDTthat 's6964VBZbe found6965VVNfind in6966INin a6967DTa ...6968:... you6969PPyou know6970VVPknow ,6971,, let6972VVPlet 's6973VBZbe just6974RBjust talk6975NNtalk about6976RBabout ...6977:... [MR. WALL J.B.]6978LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well6979UHWell ,6980,, my6981PP$my point6982NNpoint is6983VBZbe just6984RBjust that6985DTthat 's6986VBZbe a6987DTa ...6988:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6989LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...6990:... an6991DTan ordinary6992JJordinary municipal6993JJmunicipal decision6994NNdecision to6995TOto erect6996VVerect a6997DTa cross6998NNcross as6999INas a7000DTa way7001NNway to7002TOto memorialize7003VVmemorialize some7004DTsome group7005NNgroup of7006INof citizens7007NNScitizen .7008SENT. [MR. WALL J.B.]7009LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] And7010CCand my7011PP$my ...7012:... my7013PP$my only7014JJonly point7015NNpoint was7016VBDbe there7017EXthere are7018VBPbe n't7019RBn't a7020DTa lot7021NNlot of7022INof these7023DTthese war7024NNwar memorials7025NNSmemorial going7026VVGgo up7027RPup .7028SENT. That7029DTthat 's7030VBZbe a7031DTa new7032JJnew cross7033NNcross that7034IN/thatthat I7035PPI think7036VVPthink was7037VBDbe perfectly7038RBperfectly permissible7039JJpermissible because7040INbecause it7041PPit presents7042VVZpresent no7043DTno greater7044JJRgreat dangers7045NNSdanger than7046INthan the7047DTthe kinds7048NNSkind of7049INof acknowledgment7050NNacknowledgment of7051INof religion7052NNreligion that7053WDTthat have7054VHPhave existed7055VVNexist since7056INsince the7057DTthe founding7058NNfounding .7059SENT. But7060CCbut ,7061,, if7062INif you7063PPyou took7064VVDtake a7065DTa new7066JJnew war7067NNwar memorial7068NNmemorial ,7069,, if7070INif Bladensburg7071NPBladensburg tomorrow7072NNtomorrow wanted7073VVDwant to7074TOto erect7075VVerect a7076DTa memorial7077NNmemorial like7078INlike this7079DTthis one7080CDone ,7081,, we7082PPwe think7083VVPthink that7084IN/thatthat would7085MDwould be7086VBbe perfectly7087RBperfectly permissible7088JJpermissible and7089CCand ,7090,, indeed7091RBindeed ,7092,, an7093DTan honorable7094JJhonorable thing7095NNthing for7096INfor a7097DTa locality7098NNlocality to7099TOto do7100VVdo .7101SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7102LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And7103CCand ...7104:... and7105CCand I7106PPI guess7107VVPguess I7108PPI ask7109VVPask ,7110,, why7111WRBwhy is7112VBZbe that7113RBthat ?7114SENT? Is7115VBZbe it7116PPit because7117INbecause the7118DTthe cross7119NNcross has7120VHZhave become7121VVNbecome a7122DTa symbol7123NNsymbol that7124WDTthat 's7125VBZbe universal7126JJuniversal ?7127SENT? Is7128VBZbe that7129IN/thatthat what7130WPwhat your7131PP$your ...7132:... your7133PP$your claim7134NNclaim is7135VBZbe ?7136SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]7137LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I7138PPI think7139VVPthink because7140INbecause ,7141,, as7142INas the7143DTthe Buono7144NPBuono plurality7145NNplurality said7146VVDsay ,7147,, it7148PPit has7149VHZhave taken7150VVNtake on7151INon a7152DTa secular7153JJsecular meaning7154NNmeaning associated7155VVNassociate with7156INwith sacrifice7157NNsacrifice or7158CCor ...7159:... or7160CCor death7161NNdeath or7162CCor commemoration7163NNcommemoration .7164SENT. And7165CCand a7166DTa locality7167NNlocality ,7168,, a7169DTa state7170NNstate can7171MDcan decide7172VVdecide to7173TOto use7174VVuse it7175PPit for7176INfor that7177DTthat meaning7178NNmeaning .7179SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7180LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I7181PPI mean7182VVPmean ,7183,, it7184PPit is7185VBZbe the7186DTthe foremost7187JJforemost symbol7188NNsymbol of7189INof Christianity7190NNChristianity ,7191,, is7192VBZbe n't7193RBn't it7194PPit ?7195SENT? It7196PPit invokes7197VVZinvoke the7198DTthe central7199JJcentral theological7200JJtheological claim7201NNclaim of7202INof Christianity7203NNChristianity ,7204,, that7205WDTthat Jesus7206NPJesus Christ7207NPChrist ,7208,, the7209DTthe Son7210NPSon of7211INof God7212NPGod ,7213,, died7214VVDdie on7215INon the7216DTthe cross7217NNcross for7218INfor humanity7219NNhumanity 's7220POS's sins7221NNSsin and7222CCand that7223IN/thatthat he7224PPhe rose7225VVDrise from7226INfrom the7227DTthe dead7228NNdead .7229SENT. This7230DTthis is7231VBZbe why7232WRBwhy Christians7233NNSChristian use7234VVPuse crosses7235NNScrosse as7236INas a7237DTa way7238NNway to7239TOto memorialize7240VVmemorialize the7241DTthe dead7242NNdead .7243SENT. Is7244VBZbe it7245PPit because7246INbecause it7247PPit connects7248VVZconnect to7249TOto that7250DTthat central7251JJcentral theological7252JJtheological belief7253NNbelief ,7254,, is7255VBZbe n't7256RBn't that7257DTthat correct7258JJcorrect ?7259SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]7260LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] So7261INso I7262PPI 'm7263VBPbe not7264RBnot going7265VVGgo to7266TOto dispute7267VVdispute that7268IN/thatthat ,7269,, obviously7270RBobviously ,7271,, it7272PPit 's7273VBZbe the7274DTthe preeminent7275JJpreeminent symbol7276NNsymbol of7277INof Christianity7278NNChristianity .7279SENT. I7280PPI believe7281VVPbelieve all7282DTall of7283INof the7284DTthe members7285NNSmember of7286INof the7287DTthe plurality7288NNplurality in7289INin Buono7290NPBuono believe7291VVPbelieve that7292IN/thatthat too7293RBtoo .7294SENT. The7295DTthe question7296NNquestion is7297VBZbe whether7298INwhether it7299PPit 's7300VBZbe also7301RBalso taken7302VVNtake on7303INon a7304DTa secular7305JJsecular meaning7306NNmeaning ,7307,, because7308INbecause to7309TOto say7310VVsay the7311DTthe cross7312NNcross has7313VHZhave only7314RBonly that7315DTthat religious7316JJreligious meaning7317NNmeaning I7318PPI think7319VVPthink would7320MDwould condemn7321VVcondemn every7322DTevery cross7323NNcross in7324INin the7325DTthe public7326JJpublic sphere7327NNsphere ,7328,, including7329VVGinclude the7330DTthe ones7331NNSone that7332WDTthat sit7333VVPsit in7334INin Arlington7335NPArlington ,7336,, which7337WDTwhich even7338RBeven Respondents7339NNSrespondent say7340VVPsay we7341PPwe do7342VVPdo n't7343RBn't have7344VHhave to7345TOto take7346VVtake down7347RPdown .7348SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]7349LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And7350CCand does7351VVZdo it7352PPit ...7353:... does7354VVZdo it7355PPit matter7356NNmatter ...7357:... [MR. WALL J.B.]7358LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] So7359INso we7360PPwe know7361VVPknow that7362IN/thatthat context7363NNcontext has7364VHZhave to7365TOto matter7366VVmatter .7367SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]7368LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...7369:... does7370VVZdo it7371PPit matter7372NNmatter in7373INin this7374DTthis particular7375JJparticular case7376NNcase that7377IN/thatthat this7378DTthis cross7379NNcross was7380VBDbe put7381VVNput up7382RPup to7383TOto commemorate7384VVcommemorate the7385DTthe deaths7386NNSdeath of7387INof 497388CD@card@ real7389JJreal people7390NNSpeople and7391CCand that7392IN/thatthat this7393DTthis was7394VBDbe done7395VVNdo in7396INin the7397DTthe wake7398NNwake of7399INof World7400NPWorld War7401NPWar I7402PPI ?7403SENT? [MR. WALL J.B.]7404LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I7405PPI think7406VVPthink ,7407,, Justice7408NPJustice Alito7409NPAlito ,7410,, it7411PPit makes7412VVZmake it7413PPit an7414DTan easier7415JJReasy case7416NNcase .7417SENT. But7418CCbut what7419WPwhat I7420PPI would7421MDwould say7422VVsay is7423VBZbe we7424PPwe have7425VHPhave four7426CDfour basic7427JJbasic buckets7428NNSbucket of7429INof litigation7430NNlitigation over7431INover displays7432NNSdisplay in7433INin the7434DTthe state7435NNstate and7436CCand federal7437JJfederal courts7438NNScourt .7439SENT. You7440PPyou 've7441VHPhave got7442VVNget war7443NNwar memorials7444NNSmemorial ,7445,, Ten7446CDTen Commandments7447NNScommandment ,7448,, holiday7449NNholiday displays7450NNSdisplay ,7451,, and7452CCand other7453JJother forms7454NNSform of7455INof symbolic7456JJsymbolic expression7457NNexpression ,7458,, like7459INlike mottos7460NNSmotto or7461CCor seals7462NNSseal .7463SENT. I7464PPI ...7465:... I7466PPI ...7467:... I7468PPI do7469VVPdo n't7470RBn't think7471VVthink the7472DTthe reasoning7473NNreasoning here7474RBhere is7475VBZbe specific7476JJspecific just7477RBjust to7478TOto the7479DTthe cross7480NNcross bucket7481NNbucket ,7482,, though7483INthough I7484PPI do7485VVPdo think7486VVthink it7487PPit would7488MDwould take7489VVtake care7490NNcare of7491INof the7492DTthe vast7493JJvast bulk7494NNbulk of7495INof ...7496:... of7497INof war7498NNwar memorials7499NNSmemorial that7500WDTthat are7501VBPbe being7502VBGbe litigated7503VVNlitigate .7504SENT. I7505PPI think7506VVPthink the7507DTthe ...7508:... the7509DTthe logic7510NNlogic of7511INof Town7512NPTown of7513INof Greece7514NPGreece that7515IN/thatthat we7516PPwe 're7517VBPbe urging7518VVGurge the7519DTthe Court7520NPCourt just7521RBjust to7522TOto apply7523VVapply in7524INin this7525DTthis related7526JJrelated context7527NNcontext is7528VBZbe ,7529,, do7530VVPdo any7531DTany of7532INof those7533DTthose present7534JJpresent greater7535JJRgreat dangers7536NNSdanger than7537INthan the7538DTthe acknowledgments7539NNSacknowledgment of7540INof religion7541NNreligion in7542INin the7543DTthe public7544JJpublic sphere7545NNsphere that7546WDTthat have7547VHPhave existed7548VVNexist since7549INsince the7550DTthe founding7551NNfounding ?7552SENT? We7553PPwe would7554MDwould say7555VVsay that7556IN/thatthat because7557INbecause they7558PPthey do7559VVPdo not7560RBnot ,7561,, we7562PPwe would7563MDwould ask7564VVask the7565DTthe Court7566NPCourt to7567TOto allow7568VVallow the7569DTthe cross7570NNcross to7571TOto remain7572VVremain and7573CCand to7574TOto allow7575VVallow those7576DTthose it7577PPit honors7578VVZhonor to7579TOto rest7580VVrest in7581INin peace7582NNpeace .7583SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]7584LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank7585VVthank you7586PPyou ,7587,, General7588NPGeneral .7589SENT. Ms7590NNMs .7591SENT. Miller7592NPMiller .7593SENT.

[MS. MILLER]7594LOC[MS. MILLER] Mr7595NPMr .7596SENT. Chief7597NPChief Justice7598NPJustice ,7599,, and7600CCand may7601MDmay it7602PPit please7603VVplease the7604DTthe Court7605NPCourt :7606:: I7607PPI think7608VVPthink we7609PPwe can7610MDcan all7611RBall agree7612VVagree that7613IN/thatthat the7614DTthe Establishment7615NNestablishment Clause7616NNclause at7617INat the7618DTthe very7619RBvery least7620JJSleast prohibits7621VVZprohibit the7622DTthe government7623NNgovernment from7624INfrom preferring7625VVGprefer one7626CDone religion7627NNreligion over7628INover another7629DTanother religion7630NNreligion .7631SENT. And7632CCand the7633DTthe Commission7634NPCommission is7635VBZbe arguing7636VVGargue essentially7637RBessentially that7638IN/thatthat its7639PP$its cross7640NNcross does7641VVZdo not7642RBnot violate7643VVviolate the7644DTthe central7645JJcentral command7646NNcommand of7647INof the7648DTthe Establishment7649NNestablishment Clause7650NNclause because7651INbecause it7652PPit 's7653VBZbe essentially7654RBessentially a7655DTa non-religious7656JJnon-religious ,7657,, non-Christian7658NPnon-Christian symbol7659NNsymbol that7660WDTthat honors7661VVZhonor everyone7662NNeveryone ,7663,, irrespective7664RBirrespective of7665INof their7666PP$their religion7667NNreligion .7668SENT. Yet7669RByet ,7670,, I7671PPI do7672VVPdo n't7673RBn't think7674VVthink anyone7675NNanyone here7676RBhere would7677MDwould deny7678VVdeny that7679IN/thatthat it7680PPit would7681MDwould be7682VBbe unconstitutional7683JJunconstitutional and7684CCand inappropriate7685JJinappropriate to7686TOto go7687VVgo into7688INinto Arlington7689NPArlington and7690CCand place7691VVplace a7692DTa Latin7693JJLatin cross7694NNcross over7695INover the7696DTthe grave7697NNgrave of7698INof every7699DTevery person7700NNperson there7701RBthere ,7702,, every7703DTevery fallen7704VVNfall soldier7705NNsoldier ,7706,, irrespective7707RBirrespective of7708INof their7709PP$their religion7710NNreligion .7711SENT. In7712INin fact7713NNfact ,7714,, in7715INin 19247716CD@card@ ,7717,, everyone7718NNeveryone in7719INin the7720DTthe congressional7721JJcongressional debate7722NNdebate about7723INabout the7724DTthe overseas7725JJoverseas markers7726NNSmarker was7727VBDbe in7728INin agreement7729NNagreement that7730IN/thatthat it7731PPit would7732MDwould be7733VBbe completely7734RBcompletely inappropriate7735JJinappropriate and7736CCand even7737RBeven sacrilegious7738JJsacrilegious to7739TOto put7740VVput a7741DTa cross7742NNcross over7743INover the7744DTthe burial7745NNburial of7746INof a7747DTa Jewish7748JJJewish fallen7749JJfallen soldier7750NNsoldier .7751SENT. But7752CCbut the7753DTthe Commission7754NPCommission is7755VBZbe here7756RBhere arguing7757VVGargue today7758NNtoday ,7759,, as7760RBas well7761RBwell as7762INas the7763DTthe other7764JJother Petitioners7765NNSpetitioner ,7766,, that7767WDTthat it7768PPit is7769VBZbe ,7770,, you7771PPyou know7772VVPknow ,7773,, telling7774VVGtell Jews7775NNSJew ,7776,, telling7777VVGtell Muslims7778NNSMuslim ,7779,, telling7780VVGtell humanists7781NNShumanist that7782IN/thatthat the7783DTthe cross7784NNcross honors7785VVZhonor them7786PPthem ,7787,, when7788WRBwhen they7789PPthey emphatically7790RBemphatically say7791VVPsay it7792PPit does7793VVZdo not7794RBnot .7795SENT. And7796CCand it7797PPit 's7798VBZbe telling7799VVGtell Christians7800NNSChristian that7801IN/thatthat their7802PP$their most7803RBSmost preeminent7804JJpreeminent and7805CCand ...7806:... and7807CCand sacred7808JJsacred symbol7809NNsymbol of7810INof Jesus7811NPJesus Christ7812NPChrist actually7813RBactually ,7814,, in7815INin fact7816NNfact ,7817,, also7818RBalso symbolizes7819VVZsymbolize atheism7820NNatheism .7821SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]7822LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Could7823MDcould I7824PPI ...7825:... could7826MDcould I7827PPI ask7828VVask a7829DTa question7830NNquestion that7831WDTthat picks7832VVZpick up7833RPup on7834INon a7835DTa question7836NNquestion that7837IN/thatthat Justice7838NPJustice Ginsburg7839NPGinsburg asked7840VVDask earlier7841RBRearlier ?7842SENT? [MS. MILLER]7843LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes7844NPYes .7845SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]7846LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So7847RBso let7848VVlet 's7849VBZbe say7850VVsay there7851EXthere is7852VBZbe a7853DTa shooting7854NNshooting at7855INat a7856DTa church7857NNchurch ,7858,, and7859CCand Christians7860NNSChristian are7861VBPbe targeted7862VVNtarget and7863CCand killed7864VVNkill .7865SENT. There7866EXthere is7867VBZbe a7868DTa shooting7869NNshooting at7870INat a7871DTa synagogue7872NNsynagogue and7873CCand Jews7874NNSJew are7875VBPbe targeted7876VVNtarget and7877CCand killed7878VVNkill .7879SENT. There7880EXthere is7881VBZbe a7882DTa shooting7883NNshooting at7884INat a7885DTa mosque7886NNmosque and7887CCand Muslims7888NNSMuslim are7889VBPbe targeted7890VVNtarget and7891CCand killed7892VVNkill .7893SENT. In7894INin each7895DTeach case7896NNcase ,7897,, the7898DTthe town7899NNtown says7900VVZsay we7901PPwe are7902VBPbe outraged7903VVNoutrage by7904INby this7905DTthis ,7906,, we7907PPwe want7908VVPwant to7909TOto put7910VVput up7911RPup a7912DTa monument7913NNmonument to7914TOto express7915VVexpress our7916PP$our sympathy7917NNsympathy and7918CCand solidarity7919NNsolidarity with7920INwith the7921DTthe families7922NNSfamily and7923CCand with7924INwith the7925DTthe communities7926NNScommunity that7927WDTthat they7928PPthey represent7929VVPrepresent .7930SENT. They7931PPthey ask7932VVPask those7933DTthose people7934NNSpeople what7935WPwhat kind7936NNkind of7937INof monument7938NNmonument would7939MDwould you7940PPyou like7941VVlike ,7942,, and7943CCand they7944PPthey all7945RBall say7946VVPsay it7947PPit 's7948VBZbe very7949RBvery important7950JJimportant for7951INfor us7952PPus to7953TOto put7954VVput up7955RPup something7956NNsomething of7957INof religious7958JJreligious significance7959NNsignificance .7960SENT. And7961CCand that7962DTthat ...7963:... the7964DTthe town7965NNtown does7966VVZdo that7967DTthat .7968SENT. Those7969DTthose towns7970NNStown do7971VVPdo that7972DTthat .7973SENT. Would7974MDwould that7975RBthat be7976VBbe a7977DTa violation7978NNviolation of7979INof the7980DTthe Establishment7981NNestablishment Clause7982NNclause ?7983SENT? [MS. MILLER]7984LOC[MS. MILLER] Your7985PP$your Honor7986NPHonor ,7987,, I7988PPI think7989VVPthink it7990PPit depends7991VVZdepend ,7992,, of7993INof course7994NNcourse ,7995,, on7996INon the7997DTthe context7998NNcontext .7999SENT. But8000CCbut I8001PPI think8002VVPthink ,8003,, for8004INfor instance8005NNinstance ,8006,, if8007INif we8008PPwe 're8009VBPbe talking8010VVGtalk about8011INabout a8012DTa 45-foot8013JJ45-foot cross8014NNcross in8015INin the8016DTthe middle8017NNmiddle ...8018:... or8019CCor ,8020,, sorry8021RBsorry ,8022,, a8023DTa 45-foot8024JJ45-foot Star8025NNstar of8026INof David8027NPDavid in8028INin the8029DTthe middle8030NNmiddle of8031INof a8032DTa roadway8033NNroadway ,8034,, I8035PPI think8036VVPthink that8037IN/thatthat that8038WDTthat would8039MDwould be8040VBbe a8041DTa problem8042NNproblem .8043SENT. If8044INif ,8045,, say8046VVsay ,8047,, like8048INlike an8049DTan obelisk8050NNobelisk with8051INwith maybe8052RBmaybe a8053DTa Star8054NPStar of8055INof David8056NPDavid ,8057,, that8058WDTthat 's8059VBZbe not8060RBnot as8061RBas loud8062JJloud ,8063,, you8064PPyou know8065VVPknow ,8066,, not8067RBnot ...8068:... we8069PPwe 're8070VBPbe actually8071RBactually trying8072VVGtry to8073TOto ,8074,, you8075PPyou know8076VVPknow ...8077:... I8078PPI think8079VVPthink the8080DTthe commemorative8081JJcommemorative purpose8082NNpurpose would8083MDwould need8084VVneed to8085TOto predominate8086VVpredominate over8087INover the8088DTthe sectarian8089NNsectarian .8090SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8091LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well8092UHWell ,8093,, that8094WDTthat ...8095:... that8096WDTthat raises8097VVZraise for8098INfor me8099PPme ...8100:... that8101DTthat ...8102:... that8103DTthat answer8104NNanswer raises8105VVZraise for8106INfor me8107PPme a8108DTa question8109NNquestion about8110INabout standing8111NNstanding .8112SENT. Is8113VBZbe it8114PPit too8115RBtoo loud8116JJloud ?8117SENT? Is8118VBZbe the8119DTthe Star8120NPStar of8121INof David8122NPDavid too8123RBtoo loud8124RBloud ?8125SENT? Is8126VBZbe it8127PPit too8128RBtoo offensive8129JJoffensive ?8130SENT? There8131EXthere are8132VBPbe n't8133RBn't many8134JJmany places8135NNSplace in8136INin the8137DTthe law8138NNlaw where8139WRBwhere we8140PPwe allow8141VVPallow someone8142NNsomeone to8143TOto make8144VVmake a8145DTa federal8146JJfederal case8147NNcase out8148INout of8149INof their8150PP$their offensiveness8151NNoffensiveness about8152INabout a8153DTa symbol8154NNsymbol being8155VBGbe too8156RBtoo loud8157JJloud for8158INfor them8159PPthem .8160SENT. We8161PPwe accept8162VVPaccept that8163IN/thatthat people8164NNSpeople have8165VHPhave to8166TOto sometimes8167RBsometimes live8168VVlive in8169INin a8170DTa world8171NNworld in8172INin which8173WDTwhich other8174JJother people8175NNSpeople 's8176POS's speech8177NNspeech offend8178VVoffend them8179PPthem .8180SENT. We8181PPwe have8182VHPhave to8183TOto tolerate8184VVtolerate one8185PPone another8186DTanother .8187SENT. This8188DTthis is8189VBZbe the8190DTthe only8191JJonly area8192NNarea I8193PPI can8194MDcan think8195VVthink of8196INof like8197VVPlike that8198IN/thatthat where8199WRBwhere we8200PPwe allow8201VVPallow people8202NNSpeople to8203TOto sue8204VVsue over8205INover an8206DTan offense8207NNoffense because8208INbecause ,8209,, for8210INfor them8211PPthem ,8212,, it8213PPit is8214VBZbe too8215RBtoo loud8216JJloud .8217SENT. And8218CCand we8219PPwe get8220VVPget into8221INinto ,8222,, as8223INas a8224DTa result8225NNresult ,8226,, having8227VHGhave to8228TOto dictate8229VVdictate taste8230NNtaste with8231INwith respect8232NNrespect to8233TOto displays8234NNSdisplay .8235SENT. We8236PPwe have8237VHPhave a8238DTa Ten8239CDTen Commandments8240NNScommandment display8241VVPdisplay just8242RBjust above8243INabove you8244PPyou ,8245,, which8246WDTwhich may8247MDmay be8248VBbe too8249RBtoo loud8250JJloud for8251INfor many8252JJmany .8253SENT. Why8254WRBwhy should8255MDshould n't8256RBn't we8257PPwe apply8258VVapply our8259PP$our normal8260JJnormal standing8261NNstanding rules8262NNSrule and8263CCand require8264VVrequire more8265JJRmore than8266INthan mere8267JJmere offense8268NNoffense to8269TOto make8270VVmake a8271DTa federal8272JJfederal case8273NNcase out8274RPout of8275INof these8276DTthese ?8277SENT? [MS. MILLER]8278LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes8279NPYes ,8280,, Your8281PP$your Honor8282NPHonor .8283SENT. Well8284UHwell ,8285,, I8286PPI do8287VVPdo n't8288RBn't think8289VVthink that8290IN/thatthat it8291PPit 's8292VBZbe mere8293JJmere offense8294NNoffense .8295SENT. It's8296NNSIt's ...8297:... it8298PPit 's8299VBZbe about8300RBabout being8301VBGbe a8302DTa citizen8303NNcitizen in8304INin your8305PP$your own8306JJown community8307NNcommunity .8308SENT. And8309CCand it8310PPit 's8311VBZbe not8312RBnot private8313JJprivate speech8314NNspeech we8315PPwe 're8316VBPbe talking8317VVGtalk about8318RBabout .8319SENT. We8320PPwe 're8321VBPbe talking8322VVGtalk about8323INabout the8324DTthe government8325NNgovernment being8326VBGbe the8327DTthe speaker8328NNspeaker and8329CCand essentially8330RBessentially giving8331VVGgive you8332PPyou the8333DTthe message8334NNmessage as8335INas the8336DTthe non-Christian8337NPnon-Christian in8338INin your8339PP$your community8340NNcommunity that8341IN/thatthat you8342PPyou are8343VBPbe a8344DTa lesser8345JJRlesser citizen8346NNcitizen .8347SENT. And8348CCand I8349PPI think8350VVPthink if8351INif you8352PPyou look8353VVPlook at8354INat our8355PP$our record8356NNrecord and8357CCand ...8358:... and8359CCand the8360DTthe letters8361NNSletter that8362WDTthat were8363VBDbe sent8364VVNsend to8365TOto the8366DTthe Commission8367NPCommission by8368INby self-proclaimed8369JJself-proclaimed Christians8370NNSChristian that8371WDTthat were8372VBDbe outraged8373VVNoutrage by8374INby the8375DTthe notion8376NNnotion that8377IN/thatthat their8378PP$their cross8379NNcross must8380MDmust have8381VHhave to8382TOto be8383VBbe ,8384,, you8385PPyou know8386VVPknow ,8387,, removed8388VVDremove ,8389,, you8390PPyou see8391VVPsee that8392IN/thatthat monuments8393NNSmonument like8394INlike this8395DTthis sort8396NNsort of8397INof contribute8398VVcontribute to8399TOto the8400DTthe idea8401NNidea that8402IN/thatthat non-Christians8403NNSnon-Christians are8404VBPbe inferior8405JJinferior .8406SENT. You8407PPyou know8408VVPknow ,8409,, we8410PPwe are8411VBPbe Christians8412NNSChristian .8413SENT. We8414PPwe can8415MDcan put8416VVput a8417DTa cross8418NNcross wherever8419WRBwherever we8420PPwe want8421VVPwant to8422TOto .8423SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]8424LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well8425UHWell ,8426,, just8427RBjust to8428TOto follow8429VVfollow up8430RPup on8431INon Justice8432NPJustice Gorsuch8433NPGorsuch 's8434POS's question8435NNquestion ,8436,, what8437WPwhat if8438INif you8439PPyou had8440VHDhave one8441CDone letter8442NNletter from8443INfrom one8444CDone person8445NNperson who8446WPwho purported8447VVDpurport to8448TOto be8449VBbe offended8450VVNoffend by8451INby it8452PPit ?8453SENT? Would8454MDwould that8455RBthat be8456VBbe enough8457JJenough to8458TOto support8459VVsupport your8460PP$your argument8461NNargument ?8462SENT? [MS. MILLER]8463LOC[MS. MILLER] Well8464UHwell ...8465:... well8466UHwell ,8467,, no8468UHno ,8469,, Your8470PP$your Honor8471NPHonor .8472SENT. I8473PPI think8474VVPthink ...8475:... I8476PPI think8477VVPthink it8478PPit would8479MDwould have8480VHhave to8481TOto be8482VBbe that8483IN/thatthat you8484PPyou are8485VBPbe a8486DTa member8487NNmember of8488INof the8489DTthe community8490NNcommunity ,8491,, that8492WDTthat you8493PPyou 've8494VHPhave witnessed8495VVNwitness the8496DTthe ...8497:... you8498PPyou 've8499VHPhave had8500VHDhave the8501DTthe encounter8502NNencounter ...8503:... I8504PPI mean8505VVPmean ,8506,, there8507EXthere 's8508VBZbe no8509DTno ...8510:... you8511PPyou know8512VVPknow ,8513,, Valley8514NPValley Forge8515NPForge says8516VVZsay that8517IN/thatthat you8518PPyou can8519MDcan 't8520RB't be8521VBbe someone8522NNsomeone in8523INin another8524DTanother state8525NNstate that8526WDTthat read8527VVDread about8528INabout it8529PPit in8530INin a8531DTa newspaper8532NNnewspaper .8533SENT. You8534PPyou have8535VHPhave to8536TOto be8537VBbe personally8538RBpersonally affected8539VVNaffect by8540INby the8541DTthe message8542NNmessage .8543SENT. And8544CCand if8545INif you8546PPyou are8547VBPbe a8548DTa citizen8549NNcitizen in8550INin a8551DTa community8552NNcommunity ,8553,, you8554PPyou are8555VBPbe usually8556RBusually ,8557,, you8558PPyou know8559VVPknow ,8560,, within8561INwithin the8562DTthe zone8563NNzone of8564INof interest8565NNinterest of8566INof someone8567NNsomeone that8568WDTthat would8569MDwould take8570VVtake offense8571NNoffense or8572CCor feel8573VVfeel marginalized8574VVNmarginalize by8575INby the8576DTthe display8577NNdisplay .8578SENT. And8579CCand ,8580,, here8581RBhere ,8582,, all8583DTall of8584INof the8585DTthe ...8586:... all8587DTall of8588INof the8589DTthe plaintiffs8590NNSplaintiff are8591VBPbe individuals8592NNSindividual who8593WPwho are8594VBPbe non-Christian8595NPnon-Christian ,8596,, who8597WPwho say8598VVPsay that8599IN/thatthat when8600WRBwhen they8601PPthey encounter8602VVPencounter the8603DTthe government8604NNgovernment 's8605POS's symbol8606NNsymbol saying8607VVGsay ,8608,, you8609PPyou know8610VVPknow ,8611,, that8612IN/thatthat Christians8613NNSChristian have8614VHPhave valor8615NNvalor ,8616,, Christians8617NNSChristian have8618VHPhave courage8619NNcourage ,8620,, Christians8621NNSChristian have8622VHPhave devotion8623NNdevotion ,8624,, Christians8625NNSChristian have8626VHPhave endurance8627NNendurance ,8628,, those8629DTthose words8630NNSword on8631INon the8632DTthe base8633NNbase ,8634,, that8635WDTthat says8636VVZsay something8637NNsomething to8638TOto them8639PPthem .8640SENT. And8641CCand I8642PPI think8643VVPthink ,8644,, you8645PPyou know8646VVPknow ,8647,, when8648WRBwhen you8649PPyou look8650VVPlook back8651RBback at8652INat the8653DTthe record8654NNrecord in8655INin the8656DTthe 1920s8657NNS1920s ,8658,, you8659PPyou know8660VVPknow ,8661,, Jews8662NNSJew were8663VBDbe fighting8664VVGfight immense8665JJimmense discrimination8666NNdiscrimination .8667SENT. A8668DTa lot8669NNlot of8670INof them8671PPthem joined8672VVDjoin the8673DTthe war8674NNwar ,8675,, you8676PPyou know8677VVPknow ,8678,, to8679TOto combat8680VVcombat the8681DTthe stigma8682NNstigma that8683IN/thatthat they8684PPthey were8685VBDbe considered8686VVNconsider cowards8687NNScoward .8688SENT. And8689CCand I8690PPI think8691VVPthink one8692PPone of8693INof the8694DTthe amicus8695NNamicus briefs8696NNSbrief even8697RBeven had8698VHDhave a8699DTa letter8700NNletter from8701INfrom a8702DTa Jewish8703JJJewish soldier8704NNsoldier who8705WPwho had8706VHDhave to8707TOto put8708VVput on8709INon his8710PP$his own8711JJown Rosh8712NPRosh Hashanah8713NPHashanah because8714INbecause they8715PPthey would8716MDwould n't8717RBn't accommodate8718VVaccommodate the8719DTthe Jewish8720JJJewish soldiers8721NNSsoldier with8722INwith their8723PP$their own8724JJown ...8725:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8726LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I8727PPI mean8728VVPmean ,8729,, this8730DTthis would8731MDwould be8732VBbe a8733DTa different8734JJdifferent case8735NNcase if8736INif some8737DTsome of8738INof those8739DTthose 498740CD@card@ soldiers8741NNSsoldier whose8742WP$whose names8743NNSname are8744VBPbe associated8745VVNassociate with8746INwith this8747DTthis monument8748NNmonument were8749VBDbe Jewish8750JJJewish or8751CCor ...8752:... or8753CCor Muslim8754NPMuslim or8755CCor a8756DTa member8757NNmember of8758INof some8759DTsome other8760JJother non-Christian8761NPnon-Christian faith8762NNfaith and8763CCand the8764DTthe town8765NNtown insisted8766VVDinsist on8767INon putting8768VVGput their8769PP$their names8770NNSname on8771INon a8772DTa monument8773NNmonument in8774INin the8775DTthe form8776NNform of8777INof a8778DTa cross8779NNcross .8780SENT. But8781CCbut there8782EXthere 's8783VBZbe no8784DTno evidence8785NNevidence that8786IN/thatthat that8787DTthat 's8788VBZbe what8789WPwhat happened8790VVDhappen here8791RBhere .8792SENT. [MS. MILLER]8793LOC[MS. MILLER] Well8794UHWell ...8795:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8796LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Is8797VBZbe that8798DTthat right8799NNright ?8800SENT? [MS. MILLER]8801LOC[MS. MILLER] ...8802:... two8803CDtwo things8804NNSthing ,8805,, Your8806PP$your Honor8807NPHonor :8808:: One8809CDOne ,8810,, we8811PPwe do8812VVPdo n't8813RBn't know8814VVknow the8815DTthe names8816NNSname ...8817:... we8818PPwe do8819VVPdo n't8820RBn't know8821VVknow the8822DTthe ...8823:... the8824DTthe religious8825JJreligious beliefs8826NNSbelief of8827INof those8828DTthose on8829INon the8830DTthe cross8831NNcross .8832SENT. What8833WPWhat we8834PPwe know8835VVPknow is8836VBZbe that8837IN/thatthat there8838EXthere 's8839VBZbe about8840RBabout 148841CD@card@ of8842INof them8843PPthem ,8844,, seven8845CDseven of8846INof whom8847WPwhom are8848VBPbe buried8849VVNbury in8850INin Arlington8851NPArlington ,8852,, that8853WDTthat do8854VVPdo not8855RBnot have8856VHhave a8857DTa cross8858NNcross on8859INon their8860PP$their headstone8861NNheadstone ,8862,, even8863RBeven though8864INthough Arlington8865NPArlington had8866VHDhave the8867DTthe cross8868NNcross as8869INas an8870DTan available8871JJavailable emblem8872NNemblem .8873SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8874LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All8875DTall right8876NNright .8877SENT. Well8878UHwell ,8879,, it8880PPit 's8881VBZbe speculation8882NNspeculation ,8883,, but8884CCbut we8885PPwe do8886VVPdo n't8887RBn't know8888VVknow that8889IN/thatthat there8890EXthere was8891VBDbe anybody8892NNanybody who8893WPwho objected8894VVDobject ,8895,, that8896IN/thatthat there8897EXthere was8898VBDbe any8899DTany family8900NNfamily who8901WPwho objected8902VVDobject to8903TOto having8904VHGhave this8905DTthis form8906NNform of8907INof a8908DTa memorial8909NNmemorial ...8910:... [MS. MILLER]8911LOC[MS. MILLER] There8912RBthere ...8913:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8914LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...8915:... for8916INfor their8917PP$their fallen8918VVNfall family8919NNfamily member8920NNmember ,8921,, do8922VVPdo we8923PPwe ?8924SENT? [MS. MILLER]8925LOC[MS. MILLER] I8926PPI think8927VVPthink there8928EXthere 's8929VBZbe an8930DTan inference8931NNinference that8932WDTthat can8933MDcan be8934VBbe made8935VVNmake from8936INfrom the8937DTthe fact8938NNfact that8939IN/thatthat the8940DTthe government8941NNgovernment 's8942POS's records8943NNSrecord refer8944VVPrefer to8945TOto 528946CD@card@ to8947TOto 548948CD@card@ Prince8949NPPrince Georgians8950NPGeorgians who8951WPwho died8952VVDdie in8953INin World8954NPWorld War8955NPWar I8956PPI and8957CCand they8958PPthey only8959RBonly have8960VHPhave 498961CD@card@ names8962NNSname on8963INon the8964DTthe cross8965NNcross .8966SENT. But8967CCbut I8968PPI would8969MDwould also8970RBalso submit8971VVsubmit that8972IN/thatthat the8973DTthe government8974NNgovernment has8975VHZhave basically8976RBbasically forfeited8977VVNforfeit that8978DTthat argument8979NNargument by8980INby having8981VHGhave this8982DTthis elaborate8983JJelaborate and8984CCand public8985JJpublic rededication8986NNrededication ceremony8987NNceremony to8988TOto rededicate8989VVrededicate the8990DTthe cross8991NNcross as8992INas a8993DTa memorial8994NNmemorial for8995INfor all8996DTall veterans8997NNSveteran of8998INof all8999DTall wars9000NNSwar .9001SENT. That9002DTthat 's9003VBZbe how9004WRBhow the9005DTthe town9006NNtown 's9007VHZhave treated9008VVNtreat it9009PPit .9010SENT. The9011DTthe Commission9012NPCommission 's9013VBZbe here9014RBhere today9015NNtoday saying9016VVGsay that9017IN/thatthat this9018DTthis is9019VBZbe an9020DTan everyone9021NNeveryone memorial9022NNmemorial for9023INfor ...9024:... [JUSTICE ALITO]9025LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I9026PPI mean9027VVPmean ,9028,, there9029EXthere are9030VBPbe cross9031NNcross monuments9032NNSmonument all9033RBall over9034INover the9035DTthe country9036NNcountry ,9037,, many9038JJmany of9039INof them9040PPthem quite9041RBquite old9042JJold .9043SENT. Do9044VVPdo you9045PPyou want9046VVPwant them9047PPthem all9048DTall taken9049VVNtake down9050RPdown ?9051SENT? [MS. MILLER]9052LOC[MS. MILLER] No9053NPNo ,9054,, Your9055PP$your Honor9056NPHonor .9057SENT. And9058CCand I9059PPI actually9060RBactually would9061MDwould submit9062VVsubmit that9063IN/thatthat there9064EXthere 's9065VBZbe a9066DTa lot9067NNlot of9068INof exaggeration9069NNexaggeration and9070CCand distortion9071NNdistortion going9072VVGgo on9073INon .9074SENT. I9075PPI think9076VVPthink those9077DTthose people9078NNSpeople ...9079:... [JUSTICE ALITO]9080LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So9081INso which9082WDTwhich ones9083NNSone do9084VVPdo you9085PPyou think9086VVPthink can9087MDcan stand9088VVstand ?9089SENT? [MS. MILLER]9090LOC[MS. MILLER] Well9091UHWell ,9092,, certainly9093RBcertainly ,9094,, the9095DTthe two9096CDtwo in9097INin Arlington9098NPArlington .9099SENT. And9100CCand there9101RBthere ...9102:... there9103EXthere are9104VBPbe several9105JJseveral reasons9106NNSreason .9107SENT. One9108PPone is9109VBZbe that9110DTthat much9111RBmuch like9112JJlike ...9113:... you9114PPyou know9115VVPknow ,9116,, much9117RBmuch like9118INlike the9119DTthe practice9120NNpractice that9121WDTthat was9122VBDbe in9123INin Town9124NPTown of9125INof Greece9126NPGreece where9127WRBwhere the9128DTthe town9129NNtown created9130VVDcreate a9131DTa ,9132,, you9133PPyou know9134VVPknow ,9135,, forum9136NNforum for9137INfor private9138JJprivate citizens9139NNScitizen to9140TOto deliver9141VVdeliver prayers9142NNSprayer of9143INof their9144PP$their own9145JJown idiom9146NNidiom ,9147,, there9148EXthere is9149VBZbe a9150DTa statute9151NNstatute that9152WDTthat governs9153VVZgovern monuments9154NNSmonument in9155INin Arlington9156NPArlington that9157WDTthat says9158VVZsay that9159DTthat ...9160:... it9161PPit basically9162RBbasically creates9163VVZcreate a9164DTa non-discriminatory9165JJnon-discriminatory religiously9166RBreligiously neutral9167JJneutral opportunity9168NNopportunity for9169INfor people9170NNSpeople to9171TOto place9172VVplace their9173PP$their own9174JJown monuments9175NNSmonument in9176INin Arlington9177NPArlington subject9178NNsubject to9179TOto a9180DTa lot9181NNlot of9182INof rules9183NNSrule ,9184,, but9185CCbut two9186CDtwo of9187INof which9188WDTwhich are9189VBPbe that9190IN/thatthat you9191PPyou have9192VHPhave to9193TOto ...9194:... [JUSTICE ALITO]9195LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah9196NPYeah ,9197,, and9198CCand that9199DTthat 's9200VBZbe the9201DTthe way9202NNway this9203DTthis sort9204NNsort of9205INof thing9206NNthing is9207VBZbe being9208VBGbe handled9209VVNhandle today9210NNtoday in9211INin a9212DTa pluralistic9213JJpluralistic society9214NNsociety in9215INin which9216WDTwhich ordinary9217JJordinary people9218NNSpeople get9219VVPget along9220RPalong pretty9221RBpretty well9222RBwell and9223CCand ...9224:... and9225CCand are9226VBPbe not9227RBnot at9228INat each9229DTeach other9230JJother 's9231POS's throats9232NNSthroat about9233INabout religious9234JJreligious divisions9235NNSdivision .9236SENT. But9237CCbut let9238VVlet me9239PPme ask9240VVask you9241PPyou about9242INabout some9243DTsome others9244NNSother that9245WDTthat are9246VBPbe not9247RBnot in9248INin Arlington9249NPArlington .9250SENT. How9251WRBHow about9252RBabout the9253DTthe Irish9254JJIrish Brigade9255NNbrigade monument9256NNmonument at9257INat Gettysburg9258NPGettysburg put9259VVDput up9260RPup in9261INin 18889262CD@card@ ?9263SENT? [MS. MILLER]9264LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes9265NPYes ,9266,, Your9267PP$your Honor9268NPHonor .9269SENT. Well9270UHwell ,9271,, it9272PPit 's9273VBZbe one9274CDone of9275INof ,9276,, I9277PPI think9278VVPthink ,9279,, something9280NNsomething like9281INlike 3,0009282CD@card@ monuments9283NNSmonument within9284INwithin Gettysburg9285NPGettysburg Park9286NPPark .9287SENT. It9288PPit ...9289:... it9290PPit presents9291VVZpresent itself9292PPitself as9293RBas ...9294:... as9295RBas almost9296RBalmost an9297DTan object9298NNobject in9299INin a9300DTa museum9301NNmuseum .9302SENT. And9303CCand it9304PPit 's9305VBZbe not9306RBnot to9307TOto say9308VVsay that9309IN/thatthat museum9310NNmuseum contexts9311NNScontext can9312MDcan always9313RBalways negate9314VVnegate the9315DTthe government9316NNgovernment 's9317POS's imprimatur9318NNimprimatur ,9319,, but9320CCbut it9321PPit seems9322VVZseem in9323INin that9324DTthat context9325NNcontext the9326DTthe government9327NNgovernment is9328VBZbe more9329JJRmore like9330INlike a9331DTa curator9332NNcurator of9333INof a9334DTa museum9335NNmuseum than9336INthan it9337PPit is9338VBZbe putting9339VVGput it9340PPit up9341RPup .9342SENT. I9343PPI mean9344VVPmean ,9345,, remember9346VVPremember ,9347,, this9348DTthis was9349VBDbe put9350VVNput up9351RPup by9352INby the9353DTthe Town9354NPTown of9355INof Bladensburg9356NPBladensburg .9357SENT. They9358PPthey accepted9359VVDaccept ...9360:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9361LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] What9362WPWhat about9363RBabout ...9364:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]9365LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] May9366NPmay ...9367:... may9368MDmay I9369PPI ask9370VVask about9371INabout this9372DTthis cross9373NNcross ...9374:... I9375PPI 'm9376VBPbe sorry9377JJsorry .9378SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9379LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I9380PPI was9381VBDbe just9382RBjust going9383VVGgo to9384TOto ask9385VVask ,9386,, I9387PPI understand9388VVPunderstand Native9389JJnative American9390JJAmerican totems9391NNStotem have9392VHPhave spiritual9393JJspiritual and9394CCand religious9395JJreligious significance9396NNsignificance .9397SENT. If9398INif one9399CDone of9400INof those9401DTthose is9402VBZbe on9403INon a9404DTa federal9405JJfederal ...9406:... on9407INon federal9408JJfederal property9409NNproperty ,9410,, does9411VVZdo it9412PPit have9413VHhave to9414TOto be9415VBbe torn9416VVNtear down9417RPdown ?9418SENT? [MS. MILLER]9419LOC[MS. MILLER] I9420PPI would9421MDwould say9422VVsay no9423RBno ,9424,, Your9425PP$your Honor9426NPHonor ,9427,, but9428CCbut I9429PPI ...9430:... I9431PPI would9432MDwould ...9433:... I9434PPI would9435MDwould think9436VVthink that9437IN/thatthat we9438PPwe 'd9439MDwould need9440VVneed some9441DTsome sort9442NNsort of9443INof expert9444JJexpert testimony9445NNtestimony to9446TOto sort9447VVsort of9448INof talk9449NNtalk about9450INabout what9451WPwhat that9452DTthat means9453NNSmean .9454SENT. I9455PPI think9456VVPthink in9457INin common9458JJcommon ...9459:... in9460INin ...9461:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9462LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well9463UHwell ,9464,, it9465PPit has9466VHZhave spiritual9467JJspiritual and9468CCand religious9469JJreligious significance9470NNsignificance for9471INfor Native9472JJnative Americans9473NPSAmericans ,9474,, similar9475JJsimilar to9476TOto ,9477,, let9478VVlet 's9479VBZbe say9480VVsay ,9481,, religious9482JJreligious symbols9483NNSsymbol ,9484,, a9485DTa Star9486NPStar of9487INof David9488NPDavid ,9489,, a9490DTa cross9491NNcross .9492SENT. [MS. MILLER]9493LOC[MS. MILLER] It9494PPit ...9495:... it9496PPit 's9497VBZbe difficult9498JJdifficult .9499SENT. I9500PPI know9501VVPknow that9502IN/thatthat the9503DTthe Ninth9504JJninth Circuit9505NNcircuit had9506VHDhave a9507DTa case9508NNcase that9509WDTthat dealt9510VVDdeal with9511INwith an9512DTan Aztec9513JJAztec ...9514:... an9515DTan ancient9516JJancient Aztec9517JJAztec symbol9518NNsymbol ,9519,, and9520CCand they9521PPthey concluded9522VVDconclude that9523IN/thatthat it9524PPit did9525VVDdo n't9526RBn't violate9527VVviolate the9528DTthe Establishment9529NNestablishment Clause9530NNclause ,9531,, in9532INin part9533NNpart because9534INbecause no9535DTno one9536CDone would9537MDwould reasonably9538RBreasonably think9539VVthink that9540IN/thatthat the9541DTthe government9542NNgovernment that9543WDTthat was9544VBDbe predominantly9545RBpredominantly ,9546,, I9547PPI think9548VVPthink ,9549,, Christian9550JJChristian in9551INin that9552DTthat community9553NNcommunity was9554VBDbe erecting9555VVGerect ...9556:... it9557PPit was9558VBDbe for9559INfor ...9560:... it9561PPit was9562VBDbe to9563TOto commemorate9564VVcommemorate Mexican9565JJMexican culture9566NNculture ...9567:... you9568PPyou know9569VVPknow ,9570,, would9571MDwould actually9572RBactually be9573VBbe trying9574VVGtry to9575TOto endorse9576VVendorse the9577DTthe Aztec9578JJAztec religion9579NNreligion .9580SENT. So9581RBso I9582PPI think9583VVPthink context9584NNcontext would9585MDwould matter9586VVmatter .9587SENT. I9588PPI think9589VVPthink that9590DTthat ...9591:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9592LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] So9593RBso ,9594,, if9595INif the9596DTthe ...9597:... if9598INif the9599DTthe local9600JJlocal government9601NNgovernment in9602INin the9603DTthe community9604NNcommunity were9605VBDbe Native9606JJnative American9607NPAmerican ,9608,, whether9609INwhether it9610PPit 's9611VBZbe on9612INon the9613DTthe reservation9614NNreservation or9615CCor a9616DTa ...9617:... a9618DTa native9619JJnative village9620NNvillage in9621INin Alaska9622NPAlaska ,9623,, that9624WDTthat would9625MDwould make9626VVmake a9627DTa difference9628NNdifference ?9629SENT? [MS. MILLER]9630LOC[MS. MILLER] You9631PPyou know9632VVPknow ,9633,, I9634PPI think9635VVPthink we9636PPwe would9637MDwould have9638VHhave to9639TOto understand9640VVunderstand more9641JJRmore about9642INabout the9643DTthe symbolism9644NNsymbolism and9645CCand what9646WPwhat it9647PPit means9648VVZmean if9649INif there9650EXthere is9651VBZbe some9652DTsome sort9653NNsort of9654INof dual9655JJdual secular9656JJsecular meaning9657NNmeaning ,9658,, such9659JJsuch as9660INas with9661INwith the9662DTthe Ten9663CDTen Commandments9664NNScommandment ,9665,, how9666WRBhow it9667PPit 's9668VBZbe basically9669RBbasically shorthand9670NNshorthand for9671INfor law9672NNlaw itself9673PPitself ,9674,, so9675RBso if9676INif ,9677,, in9678INin context9679NNcontext ,9680,, it9681PPit 's9682VBZbe intended9683VVNintend for9684INfor the9685DTthe secular9686JJsecular aspect9687NNaspect to9688TOto predominate9689VVpredominate ,9690,, perhaps9691RBperhaps ,9692,, but9693CCbut I9694PPI ...9695:... it9696PPit 's9697VBZbe hard9698JJhard to9699TOto say9700VVsay with9701INwith ...9702:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]9703LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So9704INso this9705DTthis cross9706NNcross ,9707,, Ms9708NNMs .9709SENT. Miller9710NPMiller ...9711:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]9712LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] So9713CCso are9714VBPbe you9715PPyou suggesting9716VVGsuggest all9717DTall Ten9718CDTen Commandment9719NNcommandment ...9720:... I9721PPI 'm9722VBPbe sorry9723JJsorry .9724SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]9725LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] This9726DTthis cross9727NNcross ,9728,, Ms9729NNMs .9730SENT. Miller9731NPMiller ...9732:... [MS. MILLER]9733LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes9734NPYes .9735SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]9736LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...9737:... it9738PPit 's9739VBZbe very9740RBvery old9741JJold ,9742,, was9743VBDbe erected9744VVNerect almost9745RBalmost 1009746CD@card@ years9747NNSyear ago9748RBago ,9749,, right9750RBright after9751INafter World9752NPWorld War9753NPWar I9754PPI .9755SENT. It9756PPit does9757VVZdo have9758VHPhave ...9759:... it9760PPit 's9761VBZbe two9762CDtwo fallen9763VVNfall soldiers9764NNSsoldier from9765INfrom World9766NPWorld War9767NPWar I9768PPI ,9769,, and9770CCand World9771NPWorld War9772NPWar I9773PPI does9774VVZdo have9775VHPhave this9776DTthis history9777NNhistory that9778IN/thatthat this9779DTthis is9780VBZbe how9781WRBhow soldiers9782NNSsoldier were9783VBDbe memorialized9784VVNmemorialize in9785INin World9786NPWorld War9787NPWar I9788PPI .9789SENT. And9790CCand it9791PPit 's9792VBZbe true9793JJtrue not9794RBnot all9795DTall soldiers9796NNSsoldier .9797SENT. When9798WRBwhen you9799PPyou go9800VVPgo into9801INinto a9802DTa World9803NPWorld War9804NPWar I9805NNI battlefield9806NNbattlefield ,9807,, there9808EXthere are9809VBPbe Stars9810NPStars of9811INof David9812NPDavid there9813EXthere ,9814,, but9815CCbut because9816INbecause those9817DTthose battlefields9818NNSbattlefield were9819VBDbe just9820RBjust rows9821NNSrow and9822CCand rows9823NNSrow and9824CCand rows9825NNSrow of9826INof crosses9827NNScrosse ,9828,, the9829DTthe cross9830NNcross became9831VVDbecome ,9832,, in9833INin people9834NNSpeople 's9835POS's minds9836NNSmind ,9837,, the9838DTthe preeminent9839JJpreeminent symbol9840NNsymbol of9841INof how9842WRBhow to9843TOto memorialize9844VVmemorialize World9845NPWorld War9846NPWar I9847PPI dead9848RBdead .9849SENT. And9850CCand then9851RBthen you9852PPyou have9853VHPhave these9854DTthese other9855JJother facts9856NNSfact that9857IN/thatthat Mr9858NPMr .9859SENT. Katyal9860NPKatyal started9861VVDstart us9862PPus off9863RPoff with9864INwith .9865SENT. There9866EXthere are9867VBPbe other9868JJother war9869NNwar memorials9870NNSmemorial around9871INaround the9872DTthe park9873NNpark .9874SENT. There9875EXthere 's9876VBZbe no9877DTno ...9878:... there9879EXthere are9880VBPbe no9881DTno religious9882JJreligious words9883NNSword on9884INon the9885DTthe memorial9886NNmemorial ,9887,, quite9888RBquite the9889DTthe opposite9890NNopposite .9891SENT. All9892PDTAll the9893DTthe words9894NNSword on9895INon the9896DTthe memorial9897NNmemorial are9898VBPbe words9899NNSword about9900INabout military9901JJmilitary valor9902NNvalor and9903CCand so9904RBso forth9905RBforth .9906SENT. So9907RBso why9908WRBwhy in9909INin a9910DTa case9911NNcase like9912INlike that9913WDTthat can9914MDcan we9915PPwe not9916RBnot say9917VVPsay essentially9918RBessentially the9919DTthe religious9920JJreligious content9921NNcontent has9922VHZhave been9923VBNbe stripped9924VVNstrip of9925INof this9926DTthis monument9927NNmonument ?9928SENT? [MS. MILLER]9929LOC[MS. MILLER] Well9930UHWell ,9931,, Your9932PP$your Honor9933NPHonor ,9934,, I9935PPI do9936VVPdo n't9937RBn't think9938VVthink you9939PPyou can9940MDcan say9941VVsay that9942DTthat ...9943:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]9944LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Or9945CCor the9946DTthe particular9947JJparticular religious9948JJreligious content9949NNcontent ?9950SENT? [MS. MILLER]9951LOC[MS. MILLER] I9952PPI do9953VVPdo n't9954RBn't think9955VVthink ...9956:... I9957PPI 'm9958VBPbe not9959RBnot aware9960JJaware of9961INof any9962DTany case9963NNcase or9964CCor reason9965NNreason to9966TOto say9967VVsay that9968IN/thatthat a9969DTa large9970JJlarge Latin9971JJLatin cross9972NNcross can9973MDcan be9974VBbe stripped9975VVNstrip of9976INof its9977PP$its religious9978JJreligious meaning9979NNmeaning .9980SENT. I9981PPI do9982VVPdo n't9983RBn't think9984VVthink it9985PPit needs9986VVZneed special9987JJspecial words9988NNSword to9989TOto ...9990:... to9991TOto announce9992VVannounce that9993IN/thatthat this9994DTthis is9995VBZbe a9996DTa ...9997:... a9998DTa religious9999JJreligious symbol10000NNsymbol .10001SENT. I10002PPI think10003VVPthink that10004IN/thatthat there10005EXthere was10006VBDbe ...10007:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10008LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well10009UHWell ,10010,, hold10011VVPhold on10012INon .10013SENT. Just10014RBjust a10015DTa moment10016NNmoment ago10017RBago ,10018,, you10019PPyou told10020VVDtell us10021PPus the10022DTthe Ten10023CDTen Commandments10024NNScommandment can10025MDcan be10026VBbe stripped10027VVNstrip of10028INof their10029PP$their religious10030JJreligious significance10031NNsignificance and10032CCand that10033IN/thatthat an10034DTan Indian10035JJIndian totem10036NNtotem pole10037NNpole may10038MDmay be10039VBbe stripped10040VVNstrip of10041INof its10042PP$its religious10043JJreligious significance10044NNsignificance .10045SENT. Why10046WRBwhy ...10047:... why10048WRBwhy not10049RBnot so10050RBso too10051RBtoo here10052RBhere ?10053SENT? [MS. MILLER]10054LOC[MS. MILLER] Well10055UHWell ,10056,, as10057RBas far10058RBfar as10059INas I10060PPI 'm10061VBPbe concerned10062VVNconcern ,10063,, I10064PPI 'm10065VBPbe not10066RBnot aware10067JJaware of10068INof any10069DTany secondary10070JJsecondary meaning10071NNmeaning that10072WDTthat 's10073VBZbe derived10074VVNderive from10075INfrom the10076DTthe Latin10077JJLatin cross10078NNcross .10079SENT. Its10080PP$its meaning10081NNmeaning as10082INas a10083DTa war10084NNwar memorial10085NNmemorial is10086VBZbe distinctly10087RBdistinctly for10088INfor Christians10089NNSChristian .10090SENT. There10091EXthere is10092VBZbe no10093DTno evidence10094NNevidence that10095IN/thatthat any10096DTany ...10097:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10098LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well10099UHwell ,10100,, I10101PPI guess10102VVPguess what10103WPwhat I'm10104NPI'm ...10105:... what10106WPwhat I10107PPI 'm10108VBPbe suggesting10109VVGsuggest ...10110:... [MS. MILLER]10111LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes10112NPYes .10113SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]10114LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And10115CCand I10116PPI really10117RBreally did10118VVDdo mean10119VVmean to10120TOto confine10121VVconfine it10122PPit to10123TOto this10124DTthis World10125NPWorld War10126NPWar I10127NNI context10128NNcontext ,10129,, because10130INbecause I10131PPI think10132VVPthink there10133EXthere 's10134VBZbe something10135NNsomething quite10136RBquite different10137JJdifferent about10138INabout this10139DTthis historic10140JJhistoric moment10141NNmoment in10142INin time10143NNtime when10144WRBwhen ...10145:... so10146RBso if10147INif you10148PPyou look10149VVPlook ...10150:... you10151PPyou know10152VVPknow ,10153,, if10154INif you10155PPyou look10156VVPlook at10157INat all10158PDTall the10159DTthe crosses10160NNScrosse that10161WDTthat are10162VBPbe war10163NNwar memorials10164NNSmemorial ,10165,, they10166PPthey 're10167VBPbe basically10168RBbasically all10169DTall World10170NPWorld War10171NPWar I10172NNI memorials10173NNSmemorial ,10174,, that10175IN/thatthat this10176DTthis was10177VBDbe sort10178NNsort of10179INof the10180DTthe ...10181:... because10182INbecause of10183INof the10184DTthe battlefields10185NNSbattlefield and10186CCand the10187DTthe way10188NNway the10189DTthe crosses10190NNScrosse were10191VBDbe erected10192VVNerect there10193RBthere ,10194,, this10195DTthis became10196VVDbecome the10197DTthe preeminent10198JJpreeminent symbol10199NNsymbol for10200INfor how10201WRBhow to10202TOto memorialize10203VVmemorialize the10204DTthe war10205NNwar dead10206JJdead at10207INat that10208DTthat time10209NNtime .10210SENT. Why10211WRBwhy is10212VBZbe n't10213RBn't that10214DTthat important10215JJimportant ?10216SENT? [MS. MILLER]10217LOC[MS. MILLER] Well10218UHWell ,10219,, Your10220PP$your Honor10221NPHonor ,10222,, I10223PPI ...10224:... it10225PPit 's10226VBZbe ...10227:... factually10228RBfactually speaking10229VVGspeak ,10230,, the10231DTthe doughboy10232NNdoughboy statue10233NNstatue was10234VBDbe by10235INby far10236RBfar the10237DTthe most10238RBSmost common10239JJcommon .10240SENT. In10241INin fact10242NNfact ,10243,, on10244INon this10245DTthis record10246NNrecord ,10247,, I10248PPI 'm10249VBPbe only10250RBonly aware10251JJaware of10252INof six10253CDsix other10254JJother crosses10255NNScrosse ,10256,, inclusive10257JJinclusive of10258INof Arlington10259NPArlington ,10260,, that10261WDTthat are10262VBPbe war10263NNwar memorial10264NNmemorial ...10265:... World10266NPWorld War10267NPWar I10268NNI memorials10269NNSmemorial on10270INon government10271NNgovernment land10272NNland .10273SENT. The10274DTthe few10275JJfew others10276NNSother that10277IN/thatthat their10278PP$their ...10279:... that10280IN/thatthat they10281PPthey cite10282VVPcite are10283VBPbe actually10284RBactually on10285INon private10286JJprivate land10287NNland .10288SENT. The10289DTthe ones10290NNSone in10291INin Baltimore10292NPBaltimore ,10293,, for10294INfor instance10295NNinstance ,10296,, one10297PPone has10298VHZhave Jesus10299NPJesus Christ10300NPChrist written10301VVNwrite on10302INon it10303PPit ,10304,, so10305INso that10306WDTthat says10307VVZsay to10308TOto us10309PPus at10310INat the10311DTthe same10312JJsame time10313NNtime Bladensburg10314NPBladensburg cross10315NNcross was10316VBDbe being10317VBGbe put10318VVNput up10319RPup ,10320,, other10321JJother World10322NPWorld War10323NPWar I10324NPI memorials10325NNSmemorial were10326VBDbe being10327VBGbe put10328VVNput up10329RPup in10330INin direct10331JJdirect recognition10332NNrecognition of10333INof Jesus10334NPJesus Christ10335NPChrist .10336SENT. That10337DTthat was10338VBDbe the10339DTthe understanding10340NNunderstanding at10341INat the10342DTthe time10343NNtime .10344SENT. These10345DTthese are10346VBPbe Christian10347JJChristian symbols10348NNSsymbol .10349SENT. Again10350RBagain ,10351,, their10352PP$their ...10353:... the10354DTthe government10355NNgovernment 's10356POS's argument10357NNargument in10358INin this10359DTthis case10360NNcase is10361VBZbe not10362RBnot that10363IN/thatthat this10364DTthis is10365VBZbe a10366DTa Christian10367JJChristian symbol10368NNsymbol anymore10369RBanymore but10370CCbut that10371IN/thatthat it10372PPit ,10373,, in10374INin fact10375NNfact ,10376,, represents10377VVZrepresent Jews10378NNSJew and10379CCand atheists10380NNSatheist and10381CCand Muslims10382NNSMuslim .10383SENT. And10384CCand I10385PPI think10386VVPthink that10387IN/thatthat there10388EXthere 's10389VBZbe no10390DTno history10391NNhistory whatsoever10392RBwhatsoever of10393INof anyone10394NNanyone using10395VVGuse Latin10396JJLatin crosses10397NNScrosse to10398TOto honor10399VVhonor Jews10400NPSJews ,10401,, Muslims10402NPSMuslims ,10403,, and10404CCand atheists10405NNSatheist .10406SENT. And10407CCand as10408INas the10409DTthe brief10410NNbrief of10411INof the10412DTthe Joint10413NPJoint Baptist10414NPBaptist Community10415NPCommunity and10416CCand ...10417:... and10418CCand all10419PDTall the10420DTthe other10421JJother ,10422,, you10423PPyou know10424VVPknow ,10425,, representative10426JJrepresentative groups10427NNSgroup that10428WDTthat represent10429VVPrepresent millions10430NNSmillion of10431INof Christians10432NNSChristian in10433INin this10434DTthis country10435NNcountry ,10436,, find10437VVPfind that10438DTthat argument10439NNargument deeply10440RBdeeply offensive10441NNoffensive and10442CCand ...10443:... and10444CCand could10445MDcould potentially10446RBpotentially degrade10447VVdegrade their10448PP$their religion10449NNreligion ...10450:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10451LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] I10452PPI ...10453:... I10454PPI take10455VVPtake your10456PP$your point10457NNpoint that10458IN/thatthat it10459PPit 's10460VBZbe a10461DTa religious10462JJreligious symbol10463NNsymbol .10464SENT. I10465PPI 'm10466VBPbe not10467RBnot going10468VVGgo to10469TOto dispute10470VVdispute that10471IN/thatthat at10472INat all10473DTall .10474SENT. But10475CCbut our10476PP$our cases10477NNScase have10478VHPhave upheld10479VVNuphold religious10480JJreligious displays10481NNSdisplay and10482CCand religious10483JJreligious words10484NNSword in10485INin cases10486NNScase like10487INlike Marsh10488NPMarsh ,10489,, the10490DTthe chaplain10491NNchaplain in10492INin Congress10493NPCongress ,10494,, and10495CCand the10496DTthe prayer10497NNprayer cases10498NNScase like10499INlike Van10500NPVan Orden10501NPOrden ,10502,, the10503DTthe Ten10504CDTen Commandments10505NNScommandment ,10506,, cases10507NNScase like10508INlike Town10509NPTown of10510INof Greece10511NPGreece ,10512,, legislative10513JJlegislative prayer10514NNprayer before10515INbefore a10516DTa meeting10517NNmeeting .10518SENT. How10519WRBHow do10520VVPdo you10521PPyou square10522VVsquare your10523PP$your position10524NNposition in10525INin this10526DTthis case10527NNcase with10528INwith those10529DTthose cases10530NNScase ,10531,, which10532WDTwhich have10533VHPhave upheld10534VVNuphold religious10535JJreligious symbols10536NNSsymbol ,10537,, displays10538NNSdisplay ,10539,, or10540CCor words10541NNSword in10542INin government10543NNgovernment property10544NNproperty or10545CCor government10546NNgovernment events10547NNSevent ?10548SENT? [MS. MILLER]10549LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes10550NPYes ,10551,, Your10552PP$your Honor10553NPHonor .10554SENT. I10555PPI would10556MDwould start10557VVstart with10558INwith Town10559NPTown of10560INof Greece10561NPGreece because10562INbecause I10563PPI think10564VVPthink Town10565NPTown of10566INof Greece10567NPGreece is10568VBZbe about10569RBabout as10570RBas akin10571JJakin to10572TOto ,10573,, say10574VVsay ,10575,, Arlington10576NPArlington Cemetery10577NPCemetery as10578INas any10579DTany case10580NNcase can10581MDcan be10582VBbe .10583SENT. There10584RBthere ,10585,, the10586DTthe Court10587NPCourt was10588VBDbe saying10589VVGsay that10590IN/thatthat when10591WRBwhen the10592DTthe government10593NNgovernment takes10594VVZtake essentially10595RBessentially a10596DTa hands-off10597JJhands-off position10598NNposition with10599INwith respect10600NNrespect to10601TOto the10602DTthe sectarian10603JJsectarian content10604NNcontent of10605INof the10606DTthe prayers10607NNSprayer ,10608,, you10609PPyou really10610RBreally ...10611:... it10612PPit 's10613VBZbe not10614RBnot to10615TOto say10616VVsay that10617IN/thatthat it10618PPit 's10619VBZbe private10620JJprivate speech10621NNspeech ,10622,, but10623CCbut the10624DTthe government10625NNgovernment is10626VBZbe n't10627RBn't being10628VBGbe the10629DTthe mouthpiece10630NNmouthpiece for10631INfor the10632DTthe sectarian10633JJsectarian message10634NNmessage .10635SENT. When10636WRBwhen the10637DTthe government10638NNgovernment is10639VBZbe this10640DTthis ...10641:... the10642DTthe mouthpiece10643NNmouthpiece ,10644,, when10645WRBwhen it10646PPit is10647VBZbe 10010648CD@card@ percent10649NNpercent the10650DTthe government10651NNgovernment 's10652POS's speech10653NNspeech ...10654:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10655LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What10656WPWhat about10657INabout the10658DTthe Ten10659CDTen ...10660:... the10661DTthe ...10662:... I10663PPI 'm10664VBPbe sorry10665JJsorry to10666TOto interrupt10667VVinterrupt ...10668:... [MS. MILLER]10669LOC[MS. MILLER] Okay10670NPOkay .10671SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10672LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...10673:... but10674CCbut the10675DTthe Ten10676CDTen Commandments10677NNScommandment then10678RBthen ?10679SENT? [MS. MILLER]10680LOC[MS. MILLER] With10681INwith respect10682NNrespect to10683TOto the10684DTthe Ten10685CDTen Commandments10686NNScommandment ,10687,, I10688PPI realize10689VVPrealize that10690IN/thatthat that10691DTthat is10692VBZbe something10693NNsomething that10694IN/thatthat this10695DTthis Court10696NPCourt has10697VHZhave routinely10698RBroutinely recognized10699VVNrecognize as10700INas a10701DTa dual10702JJdual meaning10703NNmeaning symbol10704NNsymbol .10705SENT. Although10706INalthough ,10707,, yes10708UHyes ,10709,, there10710EXthere are10711VBPbe commandments10712NNScommandment that10713WDTthat are10714VBPbe certainly10715RBcertainly religious10716JJreligious ,10717,, the10718DTthe Court10719NPCourt has10720VHZhave seen10721VVNsee it10722PPit as10723INas something10724NNsomething that10725WDTthat is10726VBZbe more10727RBRmore ecumenical10728JJecumenical ,10729,, embraced10730VVDembrace ...10731:... you10732PPyou know10733VVPknow ,10734,, as10735INas Justice10736NPJustice ...10737:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10738LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Were10739VBDbe those10740DTthose statues10741NNSstatue built10742VVNbuild by10743INby private10744JJprivate people10745NNSpeople and10746CCand placed10747VVNplace in10748INin the10749DTthe parks10750NNSpark ?10751SENT? If10752INif I10753PPI 'm10754VBPbe remembering10755VVGremember ...10756:... [MS. MILLER]10757LOC[MS. MILLER] The10758DTthe ...10759:... the10760DTthe Ten10761CDTen Commandments10762NNScommandment ?10763SENT? [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10764LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Yes10765NPYes .10766SENT. [MS. MILLER]10767LOC[MS. MILLER] I10768PPI believe10769VVPbelieve the10770DTthe Eagles10771NPEagles was10772VBDbe the10773DTthe primary10774JJprimary donator10775NNdonator of10776INof ...10777:... of10778INof most10779JJSmost of10780INof the10781DTthe Ten10782CDTen Commandments10783NNScommandment displays10784NNSdisplay at10785INat issue10786NNissue ,10787,, and10788CCand my10789PP$my understanding10790NNunderstanding ,10791,, especially10792RBespecially in10793INin reading10794VVGread Justice10795NPJustice Breyer10796NPBreyer 's10797POS's concurrence10798NNconcurrence ,10799,, was10800VBDbe that10801IN/thatthat the10802DTthe fact10803NNfact that10804IN/thatthat the10805DTthe ...10806:... the10807DTthe Ten10808CDTen Commandments10809NNScommandment did10810VVDdo n't10811RBn't predominate10812VVpredominate in10813INin the10814DTthe setting10815NNsetting ,10816,, you10817PPyou know10818VVPknow ,10819,, they10820PPthey were10821VBDbe n't10822RBn't the10823DTthe largest10824JJSlarge ,10825,, they10826PPthey were10827VBDbe in10828INin line10829NNline with10830INwith all10831PDTall these10832DTthese other10833JJother displays10834NNSdisplay ,10835,, that10836IN/thatthat the10837DTthe secular10838JJsecular aspect10839NNaspect of10840INof the10841DTthe Ten10842CDTen Commandments10843NNScommandment ,10844,, the10845DTthe one10846CDone that10847WDTthat says10848VVZsay ,10849,, you10850PPyou know10851VVPknow ,10852,, this10853DTthis is10854VBZbe how10855WRBhow law10856NNlaw was10857VBDbe founded10858VVNfound ,10859,, this10860DTthis is10861VBZbe symbolic10862JJsymbolic of10863INof law10864NNlaw ,10865,, predominated10866VVDpredominate .10867SENT. But10868CCbut there10869EXthere 's10870VBZbe nothing10871NNnothing in10872INin either10873CCeither the10874DTthe plurality10875NNplurality or10876CCor Justice10877NPJustice Breyer10878NPBreyer 's10879POS's opinion10880NNopinion that10881IN/thatthat I10882PPI read10883VVPread to10884TOto say10885VVsay that10886DTthat ...10887:... that10888DTthat ...10889:... that10890DTthat context10891NNcontext can10892MDcan somehow10893RBsomehow strip10894VVstrip a10895DTa Latin10896JJLatin cross10897NNcross of10898INof its10899PP$its sectarian10900JJsectarian meaning10901NNmeaning .10902SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]10903LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] They10904PPthey have10905VHPhave 5410906CD@card@ in10907INin the10908DTthe briefs10909NNSbrief ,10910,, 5410911CD@card@ examples10912NNSexample of10913INof things10914NNSthing that10915IN/thatthat people10916NNSpeople might10917MDmight bring10918VVbring cases10919NNScase and10920CCand ,10921,, if10922INif you10923PPyou win10924VVPwin ,10925,, tear10926VVtear them10927PPthem down10928RPdown .10929SENT. Well10930UHwell ,10931,, there10932EXthere may10933MDmay be10934VBbe more10935JJRmore .10936SENT. There10937EXthere may10938MDmay be10939VBbe fewer10940JJRfew .10941SENT. What10942WPWhat do10943VVPdo you10944PPyou think10945VVPthink of10946INof saying10947VVGsay ,10948,, yes10949UHyes ,10950,, look10951VVlook at10952INat the10953DTthe historical10954JJhistorical context10955NNcontext here10956RBhere ?10957SENT? History10958NNhistory counts10959NNScount .10960SENT. And10961CCand so10962RBso ,10963,, yes10964UHyes ,10965,, okay10966JJokay ,10967,, but10968CCbut no10969RBno more10970RBRmore .10971SENT. That10972DTthat 's10973VBZbe what10974WPwhat Justice10975NPJustice Ginsburg10976NPGinsburg ,10977,, I10978PPI think10979VVPthink ,10980,, was10981VBDbe bringing10982VVGbring up10983RPup .10984SENT. But10985CCbut no10986RBno more10987RBRmore .10988SENT. We10989PPwe 're10990VBPbe a10991DTa different10992JJdifferent country10993NNcountry .10994SENT. We10995PPwe are10996VBPbe a10997DTa different10998JJdifferent country10999NNcountry now11000RBnow ,11001,, and11002CCand there11003EXthere are11004VBPbe 5011005CD@card@ more11006JJRmore different11007JJdifferent religions11008NNSreligion ,11009,, and11010CCand ,11011,, therefore11012RBtherefore ,11013,, no11014RBno more11015JJRmore .11016SENT. We11017PPwe 're11018VBPbe not11019RBnot going11020VVGgo to11021TOto have11022VHhave people11023NNSpeople trying11024VVGtry to11025TOto tear11026VVtear down11027RPdown historical11028JJhistorical monuments11029NNSmonument even11030RBeven here11031RBhere ,11032,, okay11033JJokay ?11034SENT? Now11035RBnow what11036WPwhat do11037VVPdo you11038PPyou think11039VVPthink of11040INof that11041DTthat ?11042SENT? I11043PPI 'm11044VBPbe not11045RBnot suggesting11046VVGsuggest I11047PPI 'm11048VBPbe for11049INfor it11050PPit .11051SENT. I11052PPI want11053VVPwant to11054TOto know11055VVknow what11056WPwhat you11057PPyou think11058VVPthink of11059INof it11060PPit .11061SENT. [MS. MILLER]11062LOC[MS. MILLER] Sure11063NPSure ,11064,, Your11065PP$your Honor11066NPHonor .11067SENT. I11068PPI mean11069VVPmean ,11070,, I11071PPI ...11072:... I11073PPI think11074VVPthink two11075CDtwo things11076NNSthing .11077SENT. One11078PPone is11079VBZbe ,11080,, again11081RBagain ,11082,, the11083DTthe exaggeration11084NNexaggeration that11085WDTthat 's11086VBZbe going11087VVGgo on11088INon on11089INon the11090DTthe record11091NNrecord that11092IN/thatthat there11093EXthere 's11094VBZbe somehow11095RBsomehow 5011096CD@card@ or11097CCor hundreds11098NNShundred ...11099:... we11100PPwe 've11101VHPhave gotten11102VVNget all11103DTall sorts11104NNSsort of11105INof numbers11106NNSnumber ...11107:... of11108INof crosses11109NNScrosse that11110WDTthat are11111VBPbe on11112INon public11113JJpublic land11114NNland .11115SENT. They11116PPthey ...11117:... they11118PPthey cite11119VVPcite ,11120,, for11121INfor instance11122NNinstance ,11123,, 5011124CD@card@ examples11125NNSexample of11126INof something11127NNsomething that11128WDTthat 's11129VBZbe not11130RBnot a11131DTa cross11132NNcross .11133SENT. What11134WPWhat ...11135:... it11136PPit 's11137VBZbe a11138DTa boot11139NNboot with11140INwith a11141DTa rifle11142NNrifle and11143CCand a11144DTa helmet11145NNhelmet .11146SENT. And11147CCand it11148PPit 's11149VBZbe cited11150VVNcite in11151INin the11152DTthe Respondent's11153NPRespondent's ...11154:... or11155CCor the11156DTthe Petitioner11157NNpetitioner 's11158POS's reply11159NNreply brief11160NNbrief ,11161,, the11162DTthe ...11163:... the11164DTthe Commission11165NPCommission 's11166POS's reply11167NNreply brief11168NNbrief ,11169,, I11170PPI think11171VVPthink at11172INat page11173NNpage 1711174CD@card@ ,11175,, they11176PPthey refer11177VVPrefer to11178TOto a11179DTa cross11180NNcross in11181INin Lewisville11182NPLewisville ,11183,, North11184NPNorth Carolina11185NPCarolina .11186SENT. It11187PPit 's11188VBZbe not11189RBnot a11190DTa cross11191NNcross .11192SENT. They11193PPthey cite11194VVPcite about11195INabout examples11196NNSexample of11197INof that11198DTthat .11199SENT. They11200PPthey cite11201VVPcite crosses11202NNScrosse in11203INin ...11204:... on11205INon private11206JJprivate land11207NNland .11208SENT. I11209PPI counted11210VVDcount about11211RBabout 1511212CD@card@ amongst11213INamongst the11214DTthe amicus11215NNamicus briefs11216NNSbrief on11217INon private11218JJprivate land11219NNland .11220SENT. So11221RBso I11222PPI 'd11223MDwould say11224VVsay there11225EXthere 's11226VBZbe something11227NNsomething closer11228RBRcloser to11229TOto about11230RBabout 1011231CD@card@ ,11232,, maybe11233RBmaybe 2011234CD@card@ ,11235,, not11236RBnot as11237RBas inclusive11238JJinclusive of11239INof ...11240:... of11241INof crosses11242NNScrosse that11243WDTthat are11244VBPbe quite11245RBquite small11246JJsmall .11247SENT. With11248INwith respect11249NNrespect to11250TOto history11251NNhistory ,11252,, there11253EXthere are11254VBPbe a11255DTa lot11256NNlot of11257INof reasons11258NNSreason why11259WRBwhy religious11260JJreligious minorities11261NNSminority in11262INin ...11263:... in11264INin Christian-dominated11265JJChristian-dominated societies11266NNSsociety would11267MDwould not11268RBnot feel11269VVfeel safe11270JJsafe challenging11271VVGchallenge an11272DTan actively11273RBactively used11274VVNuse war11275NNwar memorial11276NNmemorial that11277WDTthat is11278VBZbe the11279DTthe town11280NNtown 's11281POS's most11282RBSmost prominent11283JJprominent symbol11284NNsymbol .11285SENT. You11286PPyou know11287VVPknow ,11288,, my11289PP$my clients11290NNSclient have11291VHPhave been11292VBNbe threatened11293VVNthreaten .11294SENT. I11295PPI 've11296VHPhave received11297VVNreceive death11298NNdeath threats11299NNSthreat .11300SENT. And11301CCand I11302PPI bet11303VVPbet you11304PPyou it11305PPit was11306VBDbe not11307RBnot safer11308JJRsafe 9011309CD@card@ years11310NNSyear ago11311RBago than11312INthan it11313PPit was11314VBDbe ...11315:... it11316PPit is11317VBZbe today11318NNtoday .11319SENT. Also11320RBalso ,11321,, I11322PPI do11323VVPdo n't11324RBn't think11325VVthink that11326IN/thatthat you11327PPyou can11328MDcan say11329VVsay that11330IN/thatthat this11331DTthis is11332VBZbe just11333RBjust some11334DTsome sort11335NNsort of11336INof passive11337JJpassive display11338NNdisplay that11339IN/thatthat people11340NNSpeople do11341VVPdo n't11342RBn't take11343VVtake note11344NNnote of11345INof .11346SENT. Like11347INlike I11348PPI said11349VVDsay ,11350,, if11351INif you11352PPyou look11353VVPlook in11354INin the11355DTthe record11356NNrecord ,11357,, look11358NNlook at11359INat the11360DTthe letters11361NNSletter that11362IN/thatthat people11363NNSpeople ...11364:... how11365WRBhow people11366NNSpeople are11367VBPbe processing11368VVGprocess a11369DTa monument11370NNmonument like11371INlike this11372DTthis ,11373,, sort11374NNsort of11375INof like11376INlike a11377DTa billboard11378NNbillboard .11379SENT. It11380PPit kind11381RBkind of11382INof ingrains11383NNSingrain in11384INin your11385PP$your mind11386NNmind that11387IN/thatthat there11388EXthere is11389VBZbe this11390DTthis association11391NNassociation between11392INbetween having11393VHGhave ...11394:... being11395VBGbe Christian11396JJChristian and11397CCand having11398VHGhave valor11399NNvalor ,11400,, having11401VHGhave courage11402NNcourage ,11403,, and11404CCand what11405WPwhat message11406NNmessage that11407WDTthat sends11408VVZsend to11409TOto the11410DTthe religious11411JJreligious minorities11412NNSminority ,11413,, and11414CCand Christian11415NPChristian ,11416,, you11417PPyou know11418VVPknow ,11419,, members11420NNSmember of11421INof the11422DTthe society11423NNsociety that11424WDTthat are11425VBPbe the11426DTthe majority11427NNmajority .11428SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11429LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well11430UHWell ,11431,, but11432CCbut that11433DTthat 's11434VBZbe one11435CDone of11436INof the11437DTthe main11438JJmain criticisms11439NNScriticism of11440INof the11441DTthe ...11442:... of11443INof the11444DTthe Lemon11445NPLemon test11446NNtest ,11447,, that11448WDTthat different11449JJdifferent people11450NNSpeople are11451VBPbe going11452VVGgo to11453TOto process11454VVprocess that11455IN/thatthat in11456INin different11457JJdifferent ways11458NNSway .11459SENT. I11460PPI mean11461VVPmean ,11462,, you11463PPyou heard11464VVDhear from11465INfrom one11466CDone of11467INof your11468PP$your friends11469NNSfriend on11470INon the11471DTthe other11472JJother side11473NNside that11474IN/thatthat one11475CDone of11476INof the11477DTthe major11478JJmajor fundraisers11479NNSfundraiser of11480INof this11481DTthis was11482VBDbe a11483DTa Jewish11484JJJewish individual11485NNindividual .11486SENT. So11487RBso he11488PPhe was11489VBDbe obviously11490RBobviously observing11491VVGobserve it11492PPit or11493CCor anticipating11494VVGanticipate it11495PPit in11496INin a11497DTa different11498JJdifferent way11499NNway .11500SENT. [MS. MILLER]11501LOC[MS. MILLER] Well11502UHWell ,11503,, Your11504PP$your Honor11505NPHonor ,11506,, I11507PPI ...11508:... I11509PPI think11510VVPthink that11511IN/thatthat we11512PPwe cannot11513MDcan take11514VVtake one11515CDone person11516NNperson 's11517POS's example11518NNexample ,11519,, again11520RBagain ,11521,, someone11522NNsomeone who11523WPwho 's11524VBZbe probably11525RBprobably one11526CDone of11527INof maybe11528RBmaybe the11529DTthe only11530JJonly Jewish11531JJJewish people11532NNSpeople in11533INin that11534DTthat county11535NNcounty at11536INat a11537DTa time11538NNtime when11539WRBwhen there11540EXthere was11541VBDbe an11542DTan active11543JJactive Klan11544NPKlan burning11545NNburning crosses11546NNScrosse ,11547,, burning11548VVGburn Jewish11549JJJewish buildings11550NNSbuilding or11551CCor Jewish11552JJJewish ,11553,, you11554PPyou know11555VVPknow ,11556,, businesses11557NNSbusiness at11558INat a11559DTa time11560NNtime when11561WRBwhen atheists11562NNSatheist could11563MDcould n't11564RBn't run11565VVrun for11566INfor office11567NNoffice ,11568,, Jews11569NPSJews had11570VHDhave to11571TOto swear11572VVswear that11573IN/thatthat they11574PPthey believed11575VVDbelieve in11576INin an11577DTan after-life11578NNafter-life in11579INin order11580NNorder to11581TOto qualify11582VVqualify ,11583,, I11584PPI mean11585VVPmean ...11586:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]11587LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms11588NNMs .11589SENT. Miller11590NPMiller ...11591:... [JUSTICE ALITO]11592LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] There11593EXthere were11594VBDbe 1211595CD@card@ ...11596:... [MS. MILLER]11597LOC[MS. MILLER] ...11598:... I11599PPI can11600MDcan 't11601RB't ...11602:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]11603LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...11604:... why11605WRBwhy does11606VVZdo it11607PPit even11608RBeven matter11609VVPmatter ...11610:... [JUSTICE ALITO]11611LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...11612:... there11613EXthere were11614VBDbe 1211615CD@card@ ...11616:... are11617VBPbe there11618RBthere 1211619CD@card@ African-American11620NPAfrican-American soldiers11621NNSsoldier among11622INamong the11623DTthe 4911624CD@card@ ?11625SENT? [MS. MILLER]11626LOC[MS. MILLER] I11627PPI believe11628VVPbelieve there11629EXthere are11630VBPbe .11631SENT. And11632CCand I11633PPI believe11634VVPbelieve that11635IN/thatthat the11636DTthe ...11637:... [JUSTICE ALITO]11638LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And11639CCand do11640VVPdo you11641PPyou think11642VVPthink that11643IN/thatthat the11644DTthe ...11645:... that11646IN/thatthat the11647DTthe ...11648:... the11649DTthe ...11650:... the11651DTthe situation11652NNsituation of11653INof ...11654:... of11655INof African11656NPAfrican Americans11657NPSAmericans in11658INin Prince11659NPPrince George11660NPGeorge 's11661POS's County11662NPCounty at11663INat that11664DTthat time11665NNtime was11666VBDbe worse11667JJRbad ...11668:... was11669VBDbe better11670JJRgood than11671INthan the11672DTthe situation11673NNsituation for11674INfor Jews11675NPSJews ?11676SENT? [MS. MILLER]11677LOC[MS. MILLER] Here11678RBhere 's11679VBZbe what11680WPwhat I11681PPI 'll11682MDwill say11683VVsay to11684TOto the11685DTthe plaque11686NNplaque .11687SENT. They11688PPthey ...11689:... the11690DTthe names11691NNSname that11692WDTthat are11693VBPbe on11694INon the11695DTthe plaque11696NNplaque are11697VBPbe the11698DTthe same11699JJsame names11700NNSname that11701WDTthat are11702VBPbe put11703VVNput up11704RPup on11705INon the11706DTthe one11707CDone in11708INin Upper11709NPUpper Marlboro11710NPMarlboro .11711SENT. I11712PPI do11713VVPdo n't11714RBn't believe11715VVbelieve there11716EXthere 's11717VBZbe any11718DTany evidence11719NNevidence that11720WDTthat ...11721:... that11722IN/thatthat the11723DTthe Town11724NPTown of11725INof Bladensburg11726NPBladensburg knew11727VVDknow who11728WPwho was11729VBDbe on11730INon the11731DTthe cross11732NNcross .11733SENT. About11734INabout a11735DTa third11736JJthird of11737INof the11738DTthe men11739NNSman actually11740RBactually have11741VHPhave no11742DTno apparent11743JJapparent connection11744NNconnection to11745TOto Prince11746NPPrince George11747NPGeorge 's11748POS's County11749NPCounty .11750SENT. They11751PPthey named11752VVDname some11753DTsome guy11754NNguy in11755INin ,11756,, like11757VVlike ,11758,, Philadelphia11759NPPhiladelphia who11760WPwho had11761VHDhave no11762DTno connection11763NNconnection here11764RBhere .11765SENT. So11766RBso I11767PPI do11768VVPdo n't11769RBn't think11770VVthink how11771WRBhow they11772PPthey got11773VVDget the11774DTthe names11775NNSname there11776RBthere .11777SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]11778LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms11779NNMs ...11780:... .11781SENT. Ms11782NNMs .11783SENT. Miller11784NPMiller ,11785,, I11786PPI ...11787:... I11788PPI 've11789VHPhave been11790VBNbe struck11791VVNstrike ,11792,, some11793DTsome of11794INof these11795DTthese questions11796NNSquestion about11797RBabout how11798WRBhow people11799NNSpeople process11800VVPprocess these11801DTthese symbols11802NNSsymbol and11803CCand what11804WPwhat messages11805NNSmessage they11806PPthey convey11807VVPconvey ,11808,, that11809IN/thatthat you11810PPyou 've11811VHPhave sort11812NNsort of11813INof accepted11814VVNaccept this11815DTthis idea11816NNidea that11817IN/thatthat that11818DTthat 's11819VBZbe what11820WPwhat we11821PPwe should11822MDshould be11823VBbe thinking11824VVGthink about11825RBabout .11826SENT. But11827CCbut why11828WRBwhy is11829VBZbe n't11830RBn't it11831PPit enough11832JJenough to11833TOto just11834RBjust say11835VVsay :11836:: Does11837VVZdo erecting11838VVGerect a11839DTa symbol11840NNsymbol like11841INlike this11842DTthis align11843VVPalign the11844DTthe government11845NNgovernment with11846INwith a11847DTa particular11848JJparticular religion11849NNreligion and11850CCand not11851RBnot align11852VValign it11853PPit with11854INwith every11855DTevery other11856JJother religion11857NNreligion ?11858SENT? [MS. MILLER]11859LOC[MS. MILLER] That11860DTthat 's11861VBZbe right11862JJright ,11863,, Your11864PP$your Honor11865NPHonor .11866SENT. That11867DTthat is11868VBZbe actually11869RBactually more11870RBRmore the11871DTthe test11872NNtest that11873IN/thatthat we11874PPwe put11875VVDput forth11876RBforth in11877INin our11878PP$our brief11879NNbrief .11880SENT. We11881PPwe noticely11882RBnoticely ...11883:... notably11884RBnotably do11885VVPdo n't11886RBn't use11887VVuse the11888DTthe reasonable11889JJreasonable observer11890NNobserver test11891NNtest .11892SENT. I11893PPI think11894VVPthink the11895DTthe reasonable11896JJreasonable observer11897NNobserver test11898NNtest in11899INin some11900DTsome situations11901NNSsituation might11902MDmight be11903VBbe helpful11904JJhelpful ,11905,, especially11906RBespecially when11907WRBwhen you11908PPyou need11909VVPneed to11910TOto put11911VVput yourself11912PPyourself in11913INin someone11914NNsomeone else11915RBelse 's11916POS's shoes11917NNSshoe ,11918,, but11919CCbut it11920PPit 's11921VBZbe really11922RBreally just11923RBjust a11924DTa proxy11925NNproxy for11926INfor facts11927NNSfact .11928SENT. We11929PPwe 're11930VBPbe saying11931VVGsay look11932NNlook at11933INat the11934DTthe facts11935NNSfact .11936SENT. There11937EXthere is11938VBZbe a11939DTa 40-foot11940JJ40-foot cross11941NNcross .11942SENT. It11943PPit 's11944VBZbe in11945INin the11946DTthe middle11947NNmiddle of11948INof the11949DTthe highway11950NNhighway .11951SENT. It11952PPit dominates11953VVZdominate all11954DTall of11955INof the11956DTthe other11957JJother newer11958JJRnew displays11959NNSdisplay that11960IN/thatthat the11961DTthe city11962NNcity has11963VHZhave put11964VVNput up11965RPup or11966CCor the11967DTthe town11968NNtown 's11969VBZbe put11970VVNput up11971RPup recently11972RBrecently .11973SENT. You11974PPyou know11975VVPknow ,11976,, there11977EXthere 's11978VBZbe bushes11979NNSbush obscuring11980VVGobscure the11981DTthe plaque11982NNplaque .11983SENT. There11984EXthere are11985VBPbe no11986DTno walkways11987NNSwalkway ,11988,, by11989INby the11990DTthe way11991NNway ,11992,, to11993TOto the11994DTthe cross11995NNcross .11996SENT. You11997PPyou have11998VHPhave to11999TOto risk12000VVrisk life12001NNlife and12002CCand limb12003NNlimb to12004TOto get12005VVget over12006RPover the12007DTthe ...12008:... the12009DTthe lanes12010NNSlane of12011INof traffic12012NNtraffic .12013SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]12014LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You12015PPyou do12016VVPdo ...12017:... [MS. MILLER]12018LOC[MS. MILLER] There's12019NPThere's ...12020:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]12021LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...12022:... you12023PPyou do12024VVPdo suggest12025VVsuggest we12026PPwe ...12027:... at12028INat various12029JJvarious points12030NNSpoint we12031PPwe should12032MDshould consider12033VVconsider how12034WRBhow people12035NNSpeople process12036VVPprocess things12037NNSthing and12038CCand whether12039INwhether they12040PPthey 're12041VBPbe offended12042VVNoffend and12043CCand elsewhere12044RBelsewhere you12045PPyou do12046VVPdo n't12047RBn't .12048SENT. And12049CCand I12050PPI guess12051VVPguess I12052PPI am12053VBPbe curious12054JJcurious in12055INin response12056NNresponse to12057TOto Justice12058NPJustice Kagan12059NPKagan ,12060,, you12061PPyou say12062VVPsay we12063PPwe should12064MDshould n't12065RBn't apply12066VVapply Lemon12067NPLemon in12068INin this12069DTthis case12070NNcase .12071SENT. It12072PPit 's12073VHZhave been12074VBNbe a12075DTa long12076JJlong time12077NNtime since12078INsince this12079DTthis Court12080NPCourt has12081VHZhave applied12082VVNapply Lemon12083NPLemon ,12084,, but12085CCbut yet12086RByet the12087DTthe courts12088NNScourt of12089INof appeals12090NNSappeal continue12091VVPcontinue to12092TOto cite12093VVcite it12094PPit and12095CCand use12096VVuse it12097PPit .12098SENT. And12099CCand ...12100:... and12101CCand ,12102,, there12103RBthere ,12104,, reasonable12105JJreasonable observers12106NNSobserver process12107VVPprocess things12108NNSthing in12109INin all12110DTall sorts12111NNSsort of12112INof different12113JJdifferent ways12114NNSway .12115SENT. And12116CCand it12117PPit has12118VHZhave resulted12119VVNresult in12120INin a12121DTa welter12122NNwelter of12123INof confusion12124NNconfusion ,12125,, I12126PPI think12127VVPthink ,12128,, by12129INby anyone12130NNanyone 's12131POS's admission12132NNadmission ,12133,, including12134VVGinclude your12135PP$your own12136JJown .12137SENT. Is12138VBZbe it12139PPit time12140NNtime for12141INfor this12142DTthis Court12143NPCourt to12144TOto thank12145VVthank Lemon12146NPLemon for12147INfor its12148PP$its services12149NNSservice and12150CCand send12151VVsend it12152PPit on12153INon its12154PP$its way12155NNway ?12156SENT? [12157SYM[ LAUGHTER12158NNlaughter ]12159SYM] [MS. MILLER]12160LOC[MS. MILLER] No12161RBno ,12162,, Your12163PP$your Honor12164NPHonor ,12165,, I12166PPI do12167VVPdo not12168RBnot think12169VVthink so12170RBso .12171SENT. I12172PPI think12173VVPthink there12174EXthere 's12175VBZbe a12176DTa difference12177NNdifference between12178INbetween Lemon12179NPLemon and12180CCand the12181DTthe reasonable12182JJreasonable observer12183NNobserver .12184SENT. The12185DTthe reasonable12186JJreasonable observer12187NNobserver is12188VBZbe an12189DTan overlay12190NNoverlay that12191WDTthat comes12192VVZcome from12193INfrom Justice12194NPJustice O'Connor12195NPO'Connor ,12196,, who12197WPwho 's12198VBZbe trying12199VVGtry to12200TOto acknowledge12201VVacknowledge and12202CCand reconcile12203VVreconcile the12204DTthe complexity12205NNcomplexity of12206INof the12207DTthe cases12208NNScase .12209SENT. And12210CCand I12211PPI think12212VVPthink the12213DTthe reasonable12214JJreasonable observer12215NNobserver is12216VBZbe one12217CDone that12218DTthat ...12219:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]12220LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But12221CCbut ,12222,, if12223INif you12224PPyou do12225VVPdo n't12226RBn't find12227VVfind it12228PPit useful12229JJuseful in12230INin this12231DTthis case12232NNcase and12233CCand you12234PPyou do12235VVPdo n't12236RBn't want12237VVwant the12238DTthe Court12239NPCourt to12240TOto apply12241VVapply it12242PPit in12243INin this12244DTthis case12245NNcase ,12246,, what12247WPwhat about12248INabout all12249PDTall those12250DTthose poor12251JJpoor court12252NNcourt of12253INof appeals12254NNSappeal judges12255NNSjudge who12256WPwho are12257VBPbe left12258VVNleave still12259RBstill with12260INwith confusion12261NNconfusion ?12262SENT? We12263PPwe have12264VHPhave n't12265RBn't overruled12266VVNoverrule it12267PPit ,12268,, but12269CCbut we12270PPwe never12271RBnever use12272VVPuse it12273PPit anymore12274RBanymore ,12275,, except12276VVexcept for12277INfor when12278WRBwhen we12279PPwe might12280MDmight have12281VHhave years12282NNSyear ago12283RBago .12284SENT. And12285CCand I12286PPI ...12287:... I12288PPI ...12289:... I12290PPI think12291VVPthink a12292DTa majority12293NNmajority of12294INof this12295DTthis Court12296NPCourt ,12297,, though12298RBthough never12299RBnever at12300INat the12301DTthe same12302JJsame time12303NNtime ,12304,, has12305VHZhave advocated12306VVNadvocate for12307INfor Lemon12308NPLemon 's12309POS's dismissal12310NNdismissal .12311SENT. So12312RBso what12313WPwhat do12314VVPdo ...12315:... I12316PPI mean12317VVPmean ,12318,, is12319VBZbe it12320PPit really12321RBreally fair12322JJfair on12323INon the12324DTthe lower12325JJRlow court12326NNcourt judges12327NNSjudge struggling12328VVGstruggle to12329TOto apply12330VVapply this12331DTthis Court12332NPCourt 's12333POS's dictates12334NNSdictate if12335INif we12336PPwe do12337VVPdo n't12338RBn't provide12339VVprovide an12340DTan answer12341NNanswer on12342INon Lemon12343NPLemon ?12344SENT? [MS. MILLER]12345LOC[MS. MILLER] On12346INon the12347DTthe contrary12348NNcontrary ,12349,, Your12350PP$your Honor12351NPHonor ,12352,, I12353PPI think12354VVPthink that12355IN/thatthat Lemon12356NPLemon is12357VBZbe very12358RBvery useful12359JJuseful .12360SENT. I12361PPI think12362VVPthink when12363WRBwhen you12364PPyou ...12365:... you12366PPyou heard12367VVDhear the12368DTthe arguments12369NNSargument earlier12370RBRearlier today12371RBtoday ,12372,, they12373PPthey talked12374VVDtalk about12375INabout context12376NNcontext ,12377,, they12378PPthey talked12379VVDtalk about12380INabout purpose12381NNpurpose ,12382,, they12383PPthey talked12384VVDtalk about12385INabout effect12386NNeffect .12387SENT. Those12388DTthose ...12389:... that12390WDTthat 's12391VBZbe the12392DTthe crux12393NNcrux of12394INof Lemon12395NPLemon .12396SENT. I12397PPI do12398VVPdo n't12399RBn't think12400VVthink that12401DTthat ...12402:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]12403LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But12404CCbut how12405JJhow ...12406:... [MS. MILLER]12407LOC[MS. MILLER] ...12408:... Lemon12409NPLemon ...12410:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]12411LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...12412:... how12413WRBhow can12414MDcan it12415PPit be12416VBbe useful12417JJuseful when12418WRBwhen we12419PPwe have12420VHPhave n't12421RBn't used12422VVNuse it12423PPit in12424INin the12425DTthe most12426RBSmost important12427JJimportant cases12428NNScase that12429WDTthat are12430VBPbe on12431INon point12432NNpoint here12433RBhere ,12434,, cases12435NNScase like12436INlike Town12437NPTown of12438INof Greece12439NPGreece ,12440,, it12441PPit 's12442VBZbe not12443RBnot used12444VVNuse .12445SENT. Van12446NPVan Orden12447NPOrden ,12448,, Marsh12449NPMarsh v12450NNv .12451SENT. Chambers12452NPSChambers ,12453,, those12454DTthose are12455VBPbe the12456DTthe cases12457NNScase that12458WDTthat are12459VBPbe on12460INon point12461NNpoint .12462SENT. Those12463DTthose go12464VVPgo back12465RBback 4012466CD@card@ years12467NNSyear ,12468,, and12469CCand we12470PPwe have12471VHPhave n't12472RBn't used12473VVNuse the12474DTthe test12475NNtest .12476SENT. And12477CCand to12478TOto Justice12479NPJustice Gorsuch12480NPGorsuch 's12481POS's point12482NNpoint ,12483,, the12484DTthe lower12485JJRlow courts12486NNScourt need12487VVPneed some12488DTsome clarity12489NNclarity about12490INabout that12491DTthat .12492SENT. If12493INif the12494DTthe test12495NNtest is12496VBZbe n't12497RBn't being12498VBGbe used12499VVNuse ,12500,, that12501WDTthat would12502MDwould suggest12503VVsuggest that12504IN/thatthat the12505DTthe test12506NNtest does12507VVZdo n't12508RBn't work12509VVwork for12510INfor this12511DTthis context12512NNcontext .12513SENT. [MS. MILLER]12514LOC[MS. MILLER] Your12515PP$your Honor12516NPHonor ,12517,, I12518PPI would12519MDwould submit12520VVsubmit that12521IN/thatthat the12522DTthe Court12523NPCourt really12524RBreally has12525VHZhave n't12526RBn't had12527VHNhave the12528DTthe proper12529JJproper opportunity12530NNopportunity to12531TOto apply12532VVapply Lemon12533NPLemon since12534INsince Van12535NPVan Orden12536NPOrden ,12537,, although12538INalthough remember12539VVPremember that12540IN/thatthat Van12541NPVan Orden12542NPOrden was12543VBDbe decided12544VVNdecide as12545INas a12546DTa ...12547:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]12548LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well12549UHWell ,12550,, Town12551NPTown of12552INof Greece12553NPGreece was12554VBDbe certainly12555RBcertainly a12556DTa case12557NNcase ,12558,, and12559CCand that12560DTthat 's12561VBZbe about12562RBabout prayer12563NNprayer before12564INbefore a12565DTa legislative12566JJlegislative meeting12567NNmeeting .12568SENT. [MS. MILLER]12569LOC[MS. MILLER] Well12570UHWell ,12571,, Town12572NPTown of12573INof Greece12574NPGreece was12575VBDbe ...12576:... was12577VBDbe extending12578VVGextend Marsh12579NPMarsh ,12580,, which12581WDTwhich had12582VHDhave jettisoned12583VVNjettison Lemon12584NPLemon ,12585,, but12586CCbut there12587EXthere 's12588VBZbe ...12589:... but12590CCbut the12591DTthe Court12592NPCourt comes12593VVZcome back12594RBback to12595TOto saying12596VVGsay in12597INin ,12598,, for12599INfor instance12600NNinstance ,12601,, Trump12602NPTrump versus12603CCversus Hawaii12604NPHawaii that12605IN/thatthat reiterating12606VVGreiterate the12607DTthe large12608JJlarge ...12609:... the12610DTthe Larson12611NPLarson test12612NNtest ,12613,, which12614WDTwhich is12615VBZbe that12616IN/thatthat ,12617,, you12618PPyou know12619VVPknow ,12620,, the12621DTthe clearest12622JJSclear command12623NNcommand of12624INof the12625DTthe Establishment12626NNestablishment Clause12627NNclause is12628VBZbe one12629CDone denomination12630NNdenomination can12631MDcan 't12632RB't be12633VBbe preferred12634JJpreferred to12635TOto another12636DTanother ,12637,, that12638DTthat case12639NNcase relies12640VVZrely on12641INon Lemon12642NPLemon .12643SENT. But12644CCbut ,12645,, more12646RBRmore importantly12647RBimportantly ,12648,, I12649PPI think12650VVPthink that12651IN/thatthat ,12652,, like12653INlike I12654PPI said12655VVDsay ,12656,, I12657PPI think12658VVPthink everyone12659NNeveryone agrees12660VVZagree that12661IN/thatthat purpose12662NNpurpose and12663CCand effect12664NNeffect are12665VBPbe critical12666JJcritical inquiries12667NNSinquiry under12668INunder the12669DTthe Establishment12670NNestablishment Clause12671NNclause .12672SENT. They12673PPthey long12674RBlong predated12675VVDpredate Lemon12676NPLemon .12677SENT. I12678PPI think12679VVPthink there12680EXthere was12681VBDbe something12682NNsomething like12683INlike 1412684CD@card@ cases12685NNScase pre-Lemon12686NNpre-Lemon that12687WDTthat were12688VBDbe purpose12689NNpurpose and12690CCand effect12691NNeffect cases12692NNScase .12693SENT. Lemon12694NPLemon just12695RBjust enshrined12696VVDenshrine those12697DTthose out12698RPout of12699INof the12700DTthe Third12701NPThird from12702INfrom Walz12703NPWalz ...12704:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]12705LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] I12706PPI think12707VVPthink you12708PPyou ...12709:... [MS. MILLER]12710LOC[MS. MILLER] ...12711:... about12712INabout entanglement12713NNentanglement .12714SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]12715LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...12716:... I12717PPI think12718VVPthink you12719PPyou alluded12720VVDallude to12721TOto this12722DTthis earlier12723RBRearlier ,12724,, but12725CCbut I12726PPI wanted12727VVDwant to12728TOto ask12729VVask it12730PPit so12731INso I12732PPI 'm12733VBPbe clear12734JJclear .12735SENT. The12736DTthe distinction12737NNdistinction between12738INbetween the12739DTthe Ten12740CDTen Commandments12741NNScommandment and12742CCand the12743DTthe cross12744NNcross ?12745SENT? [MS. MILLER]12746LOC[MS. MILLER] Is12747VBZbe ...12748:... is12749VBZbe twofold12750JJtwofold .12751SENT. One12752CDOne is12753VBZbe that12754IN/thatthat it12755PPit has12756VHZhave this12757DTthis dual12758JJdual meaning12759NNmeaning as12760RBas ,12761,, you12762PPyou know12763VVPknow ,12764,, a12765DTa symbol12766NNsymbol of12767INof law12768NNlaw .12769SENT. And12770CCand so12771RBso ,12772,, when12773WRBwhen it12774PPit 's12775VBZbe conveyed12776VVNconvey ,12777,, say12778VVPsay ,12779,, for12780INfor instance12781NNinstance ,12782,, you12783PPyou know12784VVPknow ,12785,, alongside12786RBalongside ,12787,, you12788PPyou know12789VVPknow ,12790,, Moses12791NNMoses with12792INwith 1812793CD@card@ other12794JJother lawmakers12795NNSlawmaker ,12796,, the12797DTthe clear12798JJclear effect12799NNeffect is12800VBZbe or12801CCor ...12802:... or12803CCor impression12804NNimpression is12805VBZbe this12806DTthis is12807VBZbe a12808DTa law12809NNlaw symbol12810NNsymbol .12811SENT. When12812WRBwhen it12813PPit 's12814VBZbe displayed12815VVNdisplay in12816INin isolation12817NNisolation or12818CCor is12819VBZbe for12820INfor one12821CDone denomination12822NNdenomination ,12823,, I12824PPI think12825VVPthink Justice12826NPJustice Scalia12827NPScalia had12828VHDhave a12829DTa lot12830NNlot of12831INof good12832JJgood points12833NNSpoint about12834INabout this12835DTthis in12836INin his12837PP$his McCreary12838NPMcCreary dissent12839NNdissent about12840INabout how12841WRBhow he12842PPhe perceived12843VVDperceive the12844DTthe Ten12845CDTen Commandments12846NNScommandment as12847INas being12848VBGbe for12849INfor ...12850:... embraced12851VVNembrace by12852INby Judaism12853NPJudaism ,12854,, Islam12855NPIslam ,12856,, and12857CCand Christianity12858NNChristianity ,12859,, but12860CCbut ,12861,, for12862INfor instance12863NNinstance ,12864,, if12865INif it12866PPit was12867VBDbe just12868RBjust the12869DTthe Christian12870JJChristian version12871NNversion ,12872,, which12873WDTwhich I12874PPI 'm12875VBPbe not12876RBnot sure12877JJsure what12878WPwhat that12879DTthat looks12880NNSlook like12881VVPlike ,12882,, but12883CCbut assuming12884VVGassume such12885JJsuch could12886MDcould be12887VBbe the12888DTthe case12889NNcase ,12890,, that12891WDTthat might12892MDmight be12893VBbe a12894DTa problem12895NNproblem .12896SENT. What12897WPWhat ...12898:... the12899DTthe reason12900NNreason why12901WRBwhy we12902PPwe say12903VVPsay the12904DTthe Court12905NPCourt does12906VVZdo n't12907RBn't need12908VVneed to12909TOto reach12910VVreach Lemon12911NPLemon in12912INin this12913DTthis case12914NNcase is12915VBZbe because12916INbecause there12917EXthere 's12918VBZbe a12919DTa ...12920:... there12921EXthere 's12922VBZbe an12923DTan easier12924JJReasy route12925NNroute ,12926,, and12927CCand that12928DTthat is12929VBZbe the12930DTthe notion12931NNnotion of12932INof one12933CDone religion12934NNreligion over12935INover another12936DTanother can12937MDcan 't12938RB't be12939VBbe preferred12940JJpreferred .12941SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]12942LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well12943UHWell ,12944,, along12945INalong those12946DTthose lines12947NNSline ,12948,, would12949MDwould it12950PPit be12951VBbe a12952DTa violation12953NNviolation of12954INof the12955DTthe Establishment12956NNestablishment Clause12957NNclause for12958INfor the12959DTthe state12960NNstate to12961TOto promote12962VVpromote secularism12963NNsecularism or12964CCor humanism12965NNhumanism as12966INas opposed12967VVNoppose to12968TOto religion12969NNreligion ?12970SENT? [MS. MILLER]12971LOC[MS. MILLER] Human12972NPHuman ...12973:... humanism12974NNhumanism ,12975,, yes12976UHyes .12977SENT. If12978INif the12979DTthe government12980NNgovernment decided12981VVDdecide to12982TOto put12983VVput up12984RPup a12985DTa giant12986JJgiant happy12987JJhappy humanist12988NNhumanist symbol12989NNsymbol ,12990,, that12991WDTthat 's12992VBZbe our12993PP$our ...12994:... it12995PPit 's12996VBZbe like12997INlike this12998DTthis man12999NNman with13000INwith little13001JJlittle hands13002NNShand .13003SENT. If13004INif they13005PPthey decided13006VVDdecide to13007TOto replace13008VVreplace the13009DTthe cross13010NNcross with13011INwith the13012DTthe happy13013JJhappy humanist13014NNhumanist ,13015,, 4013016CD@card@ feet13017NNSfoot tall13018JJtall ,13019,, and13020CCand they13021PPthey said13022VVDsay this13023DTthis is13024VBZbe the13025DTthe humanist13026NNhumanist monument13027NNmonument ,13028,, I13029PPI think13030VVPthink that13031IN/thatthat would13032MDwould be13033VBbe a13034DTa problem13035NNproblem .13036SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]13037LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well13038UHwell ,13039,, let13040VVlet me13041PPme take13042VVtake you13043PPyou back13044RBback to13045TOto Justice13046NPJustice Breyer13047NPBreyer 's13048POS's question13049NNquestion ,13050,, which13051WDTwhich is13052VBZbe an13053DTan interesting13054JJinteresting question13055NNquestion to13056TOto me13057PPme ,13058,, and13059CCand your13060PP$your response13061NNresponse was13062VBDbe he13063PPhe 's13064VBZbe wrong13065JJwrong on13066INon the13067DTthe numbers13068NNSnumber .13069SENT. But13070CCbut I13071PPI do13072VVPdo n't13073RBn't know13074VVknow .13075SENT. I13076PPI 've13077VHPhave got13078VVNget pictures13079NNSpicture of13080INof lots13081NNSlot of13082INof crosses13083NNScrosse that13084WDTthat are13085VBPbe on13086INon public13087JJpublic land13088NNland .13089SENT. So13090RBso ,13091,, you13092PPyou know13093VVPknow ,13094,, assuming13095VVGassume for13096INfor the13097DTthe sake13098NNsake of13099INof argument13100NNargument that13101IN/thatthat there13102EXthere are13103VBPbe 5013104CD@card@ or13105CCor there13106EXthere are13107VBPbe ...13108:... there13109EXthere are13110VBPbe a13111DTa lot13112NNlot of13113INof them13114PPthem ,13115,, and13116CCand we13117PPwe say13118VVPsay you13119PPyou got13120VVDget to13121TOto take13122VVtake down13123RPdown all13124DTall of13125INof the13126DTthe crosses13127NNScrosse ,13128,, what13129WPwhat message13130NNmessage does13131VVZdo that13132RBthat send13133VVsend when13134WRBwhen people13135NNSpeople see13136VVPsee that13137IN/thatthat on13138INon ...13139:... on13140INon TV13141NNTV ,13142,, they13143PPthey see13144VVPsee crosses13145VVZcross all13146DTall over13147INover the13148DTthe country13149NNcountry being13150VBGbe knocked13151VVNknock down13152RPdown ?13153SENT? [MS. MILLER]13154LOC[MS. MILLER] Well13155UHwell ,13156,, I13157PPI do13158VVPdo n't13159RBn't think13160VVthink ,13161,, Your13162PP$your Honor13163NPHonor ,13164,, that13165WDTthat they13166PPthey need13167VVPneed to13168TOto be13169VBbe knocked13170VVNknock down13171RPdown at13172INat all13173DTall .13174SENT. In13175INin fact13176NNfact ,13177,, our13178PP$our preferred13179JJpreferred remedy13180NNremedy ,13181,, I13182PPI think13183VVPthink ,13184,, is13185VBZbe the13186DTthe least13187JJSleast divisive13188JJdivisive in13189INin ...13190:... you13191PPyou know13192VVPknow ,13193,, outcome13194NNoutcome of13195INof this13196DTthis case13197NNcase ,13198,, which13199WDTwhich is13200VBZbe to13201TOto ...13202:... to13203TOto move13204VVmove it13205PPit to13206TOto private13207JJprivate land13208NNland .13209SENT. Now13210RBnow I13211PPI know13212VVPknow that13213DTthat ...13214:... [JUSTICE ALITO]13215LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All13216DTall right13217NNright ,13218,, take13219VVPtake ...13220:... move13221NNmove ...13222:... moved13223VVNmove ,13224,, taken13225VVNtake down13226RPdown ,13227,, but13228CCbut they13229PPthey 're13230VBPbe ...13231:... they13232PPthey 're13233VBPbe taken13234VVNtake down13235RBdown one13236CDone way13237NNway or13238CCor the13239DTthe other13240JJother .13241SENT. What13242WPWhat ...13243:... what13244WPwhat message13245NNmessage is13246VBZbe that13247RBthat ?13248SENT? [MS. MILLER]13249LOC[MS. MILLER] Well13250UHwell ,13251,, you13252PPyou 're13253VBPbe also13254RBalso ...13255:... [JUSTICE ALITO]13256LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] That13257DTthat ...13258:... that13259IN/thatthat my13260PP$my promote13261VVpromote a13262DTa particular13263JJparticular world13264NNworld view13265NNview ,13266,, but13267CCbut is13268VBZbe that13269DTthat ...13270:... is13271VBZbe that13272IN/thatthat consistent13273JJconsistent with13274INwith the13275DTthe Establishment13276NNestablishment Clause13277NNclause ?13278SENT? [MS. MILLER]13279LOC[MS. MILLER] Your13280PP$your Honor13281NPHonor ,13282,, with13283INwith respect13284NNrespect ,13285,, I13286PPI think13287VVPthink you13288PPyou 're13289VBPbe forgetting13290VVGforget the13291DTthe third13292JJthird option13293NNoption ,13294,, which13295WDTwhich is13296VBZbe transferring13297VVGtransfer the13298DTthe underlying13299VVGunderlie property13300NNproperty ,13301,, which13302WDTwhich this13303DTthis Court13304NNcourt sanctioned13305VVNsanction in13306INin Buono13307NPBuono ,13308,, as13309RBas well13310RBwell as13311INas the13312DTthe Ninth13313JJninth Circuit13314NNcircuit sanctioning13315VVGsanction in13316INin ...13317:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13318LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Wait13319VVwait a13320DTa minute13321NNminute ...13322:... [MS. MILLER]13323LOC[MS. MILLER] ...13324:... the13325DTthe Trunk13326NPTrunk case13327NNcase .13328SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13329LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...13330:... let13331VVlet ...13332:... let13333VVlet 's13334VBZbe just13335RBjust take13336VVtake that13337DTthat .13338SENT. [MS. MILLER]13339LOC[MS. MILLER] Okay13340NPOkay .13341SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13342LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I13343PPI mean13344VVPmean ,13345,, we13346PPwe 're13347VBPbe fighting13348VVGfight the13349DTthe hypothetical13350JJhypothetical ,13351,, counsel13352NNcounsel .13353SENT. [MS. MILLER]13354LOC[MS. MILLER] Okay13355NPOkay .13356SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13357LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Now13358RBnow I13359PPI love13360VVPlove doing13361VVGdo that13362IN/thatthat too13363RBtoo .13364SENT. [MS. MILLER]13365LOC[MS. MILLER] Yeah13366NPYeah .13367SENT. [13368SYM[ LAUGHTER13369NNlaughter ]13370SYM] [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13371LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But13372CCbut let13373VVNlet 's13374VBZbe just13375RBjust stick13376NNstick with13377INwith the13378DTthe hypothetical13379JJhypothetical .13380SENT. [MS. MILLER]13381LOC[MS. MILLER] Sure13382NPSure .13383SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13384LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You13385PPyou can13386MDcan 't13387RB't transfer13388VVtransfer it13389PPit .13390SENT. You13391PPyou can13392MDcan 't13393RB't move13394VVmove it13395PPit .13396SENT. You13397PPyou have13398VHPhave to13399TOto tear13400VVtear it13401PPit down13402RPdown .13403SENT. Road-side13404NPRoad-side crosses13405VVZcross along13406INalong public13407JJpublic highways13408NNShighway ,13409,, for13410INfor example13411NNexample ,13412,, those13413DTthose are13414VBPbe many13415JJmany .13416SENT. And13417CCand in13418INin some13419DTsome places13420NNSplace ,13421,, they13422PPthey 've13423VHPhave been13424VBNbe ruled13425VVNrule to13426TOto be13427VBbe unconstitutional13428JJunconstitutional ,13429,, including13430VVGinclude in13431INin my13432PP$my old13433JJold court13434NNcourt .13435SENT. [MS. MILLER]13436LOC[MS. MILLER] That13437DTthat 's13438VBZbe right13439JJright .13440SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13441LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Because13442INbecause they13443PPthey endorse13444VVPendorse religion13445NNreligion ,13446,, proselytize13447VVPproselytize .13448SENT. So13449RBso back13450RBback to13451TOto ...13452:... [MS. MILLER]13453LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes13454NPYes .13455SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13456LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...13457:... Justice13458NPJustice Alito13459NPAlito 's13460POS's question13461NNquestion .13462SENT. [MS. MILLER]13463LOC[MS. MILLER] Sure13464NPSure .13465SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13466LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] If13467INif you13468PPyou could13469MDcould answer13470VVanswer it13471PPit ,13472,, I13473PPI ...13474:... I13475PPI 'd13476MDwould be13477VBbe grateful13478JJgrateful .13479SENT. [MS. MILLER]13480LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes13481NPYes .13482SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13483LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] That13484DTthat would13485MDwould help13486VVhelp me13487PPme .13488SENT. [MS. MILLER]13489LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes13490NPYes .13491SENT. I13492PPI mean13493VVPmean ,13494,, I13495PPI think13496VVPthink that13497IN/thatthat the13498DTthe message13499NNmessage ...13500:... again13501RBagain ,13502,, I13503PPI just13504RBjust want13505VVPwant to13506TOto say13507VVsay one13508CDone fourth13509JJfourth option13510NNoption ,13511,, which13512WDTwhich is13513VBZbe creating13514VVGcreate an13515DTan open13516JJopen forum13517NNforum ,13518,, something13519NNsomething like13520INlike Town13521NPTown of13522INof Greece13523NPGreece .13524SENT. But13525CCbut ,13526,, with13527INwith respect13528NNrespect to13529TOto bulldozing13530VVGbulldoze ,13531,, you13532PPyou say13533VVPsay ,13534,, 5013535CD@card@ crosses13536NNScrosse ,13537,, I13538PPI mean13539VVPmean ,13540,, certainly13541RBcertainly ,13542,, people13543NNSpeople will13544MDwill get13545VVget the13546DTthe message13547NNmessage that13548IN/thatthat you13549PPyou can13550MDcan 't13551RB't prefer13552VVPprefer Christianity13553NNChristianity .13554SENT. But13555CCbut this13556DTthis Court13557NPCourt has13558VHZhave always13559RBalways rejected13560VVNreject the13561DTthe idea13562NNidea that13563IN/thatthat restoring13564VVGrestore the13565DTthe government13566NNgovernment to13567TOto a13568DTa place13569NNplace of13570INof neutrality13571NNneutrality is13572VBZbe hostile13573JJhostile to13574TOto religion13575NNreligion .13576SENT. In13577INin fact13578NNfact ,13579,, I13580PPI think13581VVPthink that13582IN/thatthat argument13583NNargument cuts13584NNScut directly13585RBdirectly against13586INagainst their13587PP$their argument13588NNargument that13589WDTthat says13590VVZsay this13591DTthis is13592VBZbe n't13593RBn't a13594DTa religious13595JJreligious symbol13596NNsymbol .13597SENT. To13598TOTo say13599VVsay that13600IN/thatthat it13601PPit would13602MDwould be13603VBbe so13604RBso hostile13605JJhostile to13606TOto religion13607NNreligion ,13608,, to13609TOto move13610VVmove it13611PPit to13612TOto private13613JJprivate land13614NNland ,13615,, to13616TOto transfer13617VVtransfer the13618DTthe land13619NNland underneath13620INunderneath it13621PPit ,13622,, I13623PPI think13624VVPthink ,13625,, really13626RBreally damages13627VVZdamage their13628PP$their argument13629NNargument in13630INin a13631DTa way13632NNway that13633WDTthat ,13634,, you13635PPyou know13636VVPknow ,13637,, it13638PPit ...13639:... it13640PPit ...13641:... [JUSTICE BREYER]13642LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] It13643PPit 's13644VBZbe not13645RBnot just13646RBjust an13647DTan argument13648NNargument .13649SENT. It's13650NNSIt's ...13651:... it13652PPit 's13653VBZbe partly13654RBpartly guidance13655NNguidance .13656SENT. I13657PPI do13658VVPdo n't13659RBn't know13660VVknow if13661INif we13662PPwe can13663MDcan .13664SENT. This13665DTthis is13666VBZbe a13667DTa tough13668JJtough area13669NNarea .13670SENT. Okay13671JJokay .13672SENT. So13673RBso I13674PPI 'm13675VBPbe interested13676JJinterested in13677INin your13678PP$your reaction13679NNreaction ,13680,, which13681WDTwhich now13682RBnow that13683IN/thatthat Justice13684NPJustice Alito13685NPAlito mentions13686VVZmention it13687PPit ,13688,, I13689PPI did13690VVDdo ,13691,, and13692CCand I13693PPI did13694VVDdo n't13695RBn't hear13696VVhear an13697DTan answer13698NNanswer .13699SENT. [MS. MILLER]13700LOC[MS. MILLER] With13701INwith respect13702NNrespect to13703TOto ...13704:... well13705UHwell ,13706,, I13707PPI think13708VVPthink the13709DTthe hypothetical13710JJhypothetical is13711VBZbe so13712RBso difficult13713JJdifficult because13714INbecause I13715PPI do13716VVPdo n't13717RBn't believe13718VVbelieve ...13719:... [JUSTICE BREYER]13720LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] It13721PPit 's13722VBZbe not13723RBnot a13724DTa hypothetical13725JJhypothetical .13726SENT. [MS. MILLER]13727LOC[MS. MILLER] Okay13728NPOkay .13729SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]13730LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I13731PPI 'm13732VBPbe saying13733VVGsay ,13734,, a13735DTa very13736RBvery good13737JJgood book13738NNbook ,13739,, the13740DTthe Law13741NPLaw &13742CC& Its13743PP$its Compass13744NNcompass ,13745,, Lord13746NPLord Radcliffe13747NPRadcliffe ,13748,, all13749PDTall our13750PP$our liberties13751NNSliberty come13752VVNcome from13753INfrom freedom13754NNfreedom of13755INof religion13756NNreligion .13757SENT. You13758PPyou have13759VHPhave your13760PP$your religion13761NNreligion .13762SENT. I13763PPI have13764VHPhave mine13765NNmine .13766SENT. And13767CCand we13768PPwe 're13769VBPbe not13770RBnot going13771VVGgo to13772TOto kill13773VVkill each13774DTeach other13775JJother .13776SENT. Okay13777JJokay ?13778SENT? So13779RBso we13780PPwe say13781VVPsay history13782NNhistory counts13783NNScount .13784SENT. Now13785RBnow what13786WPwhat he13787PPhe raised13788VVNraise is13789VBZbe a13790DTa problem13791NNproblem .13792SENT. So13793RBso what13794WPwhat about13795INabout saying13796VVGsay past13797NNpast is13798VBZbe past13799JJpast ,13800,, if13801INif you13802PPyou go13803VVPgo back13804JJback years13805NNSyear ,13806,, but13807CCbut no13808RBno more13809RBRmore .13810SENT. We13811PPwe 're13812VBPbe now13813RBnow 5413814CD@card@ religions13815NNSreligion .13816SENT. We13817PPwe 're13818VBPbe now13819RBnow everything13820NNeverything under13821INunder the13822DTthe sun13823NNsun .13824SENT. And13825CCand people13826NNSpeople will13827MDwill take13828VVtake offense13829NNoffense .13830SENT. Now13831RBnow how13832WRBhow do13833VVPdo I13834PPI do13835VVPdo that13836RBthat ?13837SENT? Is13838VBZbe that13839DTthat sensible13840NNsensible ?13841SENT? Is13842VBZbe it13843PPit ridiculous13844JJridiculous ?13845SENT? What13846WPWhat do13847VVPdo you13848PPyou think13849VVPthink ?13850SENT? [MS. MILLER]13851LOC[MS. MILLER] Well13852UHwell ,13853,, I13854PPI think13855VVPthink that13856IN/thatthat there13857EXthere are13858VBPbe ways13859NNSway to13860TOto display13861VVdisplay a13862DTa historical13863JJhistorical cross13864NNcross in13865INin a13866DTa way13867NNway that13868WDTthat is13869VBZbe n't13870RBn't the13871DTthe government13872NNgovernment currently13873RBcurrently being13874VBGbe the13875DTthe mouthpiece13876NNmouthpiece for13877INfor that13878DTthat sectarian13879JJsectarian speech13880NNspeech .13881SENT. The13882DTthe 913883CD9 /13884SYM/ 1113885CD@card@ cross13886NNcross that13887IN/thatthat Petitioners13888NNSpetitioner speak13889VVPspeak of13890INof is13891VBZbe a13892DTa perfect13893JJperfect example13894NNexample .13895SENT. It13896PPit sits13897VVZsit in13898INin an13899DTan exhibit13900NNexhibit panel13901NNpanel along13902INalong with13903INwith other13904JJother pieces13905NNSpiece of13906INof rubble13907NNrubble and13908CCand an13909DTan explanatory13910JJexplanatory plaque13911NNplaque about13912INabout how13913WRBhow it13914PPit came13915VVDcome to13916TOto be13917VBbe .13918SENT. I13919PPI think13920VVPthink that13921IN/thatthat if13922INif this13923DTthis were13924VBDbe not13925RBnot being13926VBGbe actively13927RBactively used13928VVNuse by13929INby the13930DTthe town13931NNtown as13932INas an13933DTan annual13934JJannual war13935NNwar memorial13936NNmemorial that13937IN/thatthat every13938DTevery year13939NNyear after13940INafter year13941NNyear the13942DTthe town13943NNtown is13944VBZbe saying13945VVGsay this13946DTthis is13947VBZbe how13948WRBhow we13949PPwe honor13950VVPhonor our13951PP$our veterans13952NNSveteran ,13953,, this13954DTthis giant13955JJgiant cross13956NNcross ,13957,, that13958WDTthat 's13959VBZbe a13960DTa constant13961JJconstant message13962NNmessage .13963SENT. It13964PPit 's13965VBZbe not13966RBnot ...13967:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13968LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] What13969WPWhat if13970INif ...13971:... [MS. MILLER]13972LOC[MS. MILLER] ...13973:... a13974DTa historical13975JJhistorical artifact13976NNartifact .13977SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]13978LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...13979:... what13980WPwhat if13981INif ...13982:... what13983WPwhat if13984INif ...13985:... what13986WPwhat if13987INif other13988JJother cities13989NNScity replicated13990VVDreplicate the13991DTthe 913992CD9 /13993SYM/ 1113994CD@card@ cross13995NNcross ?13996SENT? It13997PPit 's13998VBZbe a13999DTa different14000JJdifferent world14001NNworld .14002SENT. It14003PPit 's14004VBZbe a14005DTa different14006JJdifferent time14007NNtime .14008SENT. History14009NNhistory 's14010VBZbe changed14011VVNchange .14012SENT. But14013CCbut here14014RBhere 's14015VBZbe an14016DTan example14017NNexample of14018INof a14019DTa cross14020NNcross that14021WDTthat has14022VHZhave very14023RBvery contemporary14024JJcontemporary meaning14025NNmeaning and14026CCand to14027TOto a14028DTa lot14029NNlot of14030INof people14031NNSpeople .14032SENT. Would14033MDwould ...14034:... would14035MDwould you14036PPyou prohibit14037VVprohibit cities14038NNScity and14039CCand states14040NNSstate from14041INfrom duplicating14042VVGduplicate that14043DTthat cross14044NNcross on14045INon ...14046:... on14047INon their14048PP$their ...14049:... on14050INon their14051PP$their public14052JJpublic memorials14053NNSmemorial to14054TOto 914055CD9 /14056SYM/ 1114057CD@card@ ?14058SENT? [MS. MILLER]14059LOC[MS. MILLER] So14060RBso just14061RBjust so14062INso I14063PPI understand14064VVPunderstand ,14065,, you14066PPyou 're14067VBPbe saying14068VVGsay they14069PPthey commission14070NNcommission a14071DTa cross14072NNcross that14073WDTthat looks14074VVZlook like14075INlike the14076DTthe rubble14077NNrubble ...14078:... a14079DTa piece14080NNpiece of14081INof rubble14082NNrubble ,14083,, and14084CCand then14085RBthen ...14086:... you14087PPyou know14088VVPknow ,14089,, I14090PPI think14091VVPthink it14092PPit depends14093VVZdepend on14094INon how14095WRBhow they14096PPthey 're14097VBPbe displaying14098VVGdisplay it14099PPit .14100SENT. If14101INif it14102PPit 's14103VBZbe ...14104:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]14105LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] did14106VVDdo n't14107RBn't you14108PPyou answer14109VVPanswer that14110IN/thatthat it14111PPit does14112VVZdo n't14113RBn't exist14114VVexist in14115INin splendid14116JJsplendid isolation14117NNisolation ?14118SENT? [MS. MILLER]14119LOC[MS. MILLER] Exactly14120RBexactly .14121SENT. It14122PPit does14123VVZdo not14124RBnot exist14125VVexist in14126INin isolation14127NNisolation ,14128,, yes14129UHyes ,14130,, it14131PPit 's14132VBZbe ...14133:... it14134PPit 's14135VBZbe in14136INin a14137DTa museum14138NNmuseum .14139SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]14140LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] No14141UHNo ,14142,, no14143UHno ,14144,, it14145PPit 's14146VBZbe ...14147:... it14148PPit 's14149VBZbe ...14150:... my14151PP$my question14152NNquestion is14153VBZbe ,14154,, it14155PPit 's14156VBZbe a14157DTa 914158CD9 /14159SYM/ 1114160CD@card@ memorial14161NNmemorial .14162SENT. [MS. MILLER]14163LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes14164NPYes .14165SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]14166LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And14167CCand that14168DTthat 's14169VBZbe the14170DTthe predominant14171JJpredominant thing14172NNthing ,14173,, and14174CCand there14175EXthere might14176MDmight be14177VBbe some14178DTsome names14179NNSname on14180INon it14181PPit ,14182,, just14183RBjust like14184INlike our14185PP$our Bladensburg14186NPBladensburg cross14187NNcross .14188SENT. [MS. MILLER]14189LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes14190NPYes ,14191,, Your14192PP$your Honor14193NPHonor .14194SENT. Well14195UHwell ,14196,, then14197RBthen that14198DTthat would14199MDwould certainly14200RBcertainly be14201VBbe a14202DTa problem14203NNproblem .14204SENT. That14205DTthat would14206MDwould be14207VBbe a14208DTa cross14209NNcross that14210WDTthat 's14211VBZbe being14212VBGbe displayed14213VVNdisplay as14214INas the14215DTthe government14216NNgovernment 's14217POS's war14218NNwar memorial14219NNmemorial ,14220,, not14221RBnot as14222INas a14223DTa piece14224NNpiece of14225INof artifact14226NNartifact that14227WDTthat is14228VBZbe in14229INin an14230DTan exhibit14231NNexhibit ,14232,, as14233INas a14234DTa museum14235NNmuseum ,14236,, in14237INin a14238DTa museum14239NNmuseum context14240NNcontext .14241SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14242LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Can14243MDcan we14244PPwe go14245VVgo back14246RBback outside14247JJoutside of14248INof hypotheticals14249NNShypotheticals to14250TOto this14251DTthis case14252NNcase ?14253SENT? [MS. MILLER]14254LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes14255NPYes ,14256,, Your14257PP$your Honor14258NPHonor .14259SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14260LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr14261NPMr .14262SENT. Katyal14263NPKatyal said14264VVDsay that14265IN/thatthat the14266DTthe only14267JJonly way14268NNway to14269TOto have14270VHhave a14271DTa remedy14272NNremedy here14273RBhere is14274VBZbe to14275TOto destroy14276VVdestroy ...14277:... change14278VVchange the14279DTthe cross14280NNcross or14281CCor destroy14282VVdestroy it14283PPit .14284SENT. He14285PPhe says14286VVZsay you14287PPyou can14288MDcan 't14289RB't move14290VVmove it14291PPit because14292INbecause it14293PPit 'll14294MDwill fall14295VVfall apart14296RBapart ,14297,, and14298CCand you14299PPyou can14300MDcan 't14301RB't give14302VVgive it14303PPit to14304TOto the14305DTthe Legion14306NNlegion because14307INbecause of14308INof safety14309NNsafety concerns14310NNSconcern .14311SENT. Do14312VVdo you14313PPyou agree14314VVagree with14315INwith his14316PP$his position14317NNposition on14318INon this14319DTthis ?14320SENT? [MS. MILLER]14321LOC[MS. MILLER] I14322PPI do14323VVPdo n't14324RBn't agree14325VVagree .14326SENT. For14327INfor one14328CDone ,14329,, with14330INwith respect14331NNrespect to14332TOto moving14333VVGmove it14334PPit ,14335,, we14336PPwe do14337VVPdo n't14338RBn't have14339VHhave any14340DTany statements14341NNSstatement that14342WDTthat say14343VVPsay ...14344:... we14345PPwe ...14346:... there14347EXthere 's14348VBZbe one14349CDone statement14350NNstatement in14351INin the14352DTthe deposition14353NNdeposition that14354WDTthat says14355VVZsay it14356PPit might14357MDmight be14358VBbe hard14359JJhard to14360TOto move14361VVmove .14362SENT. But14363CCbut we14364PPwe also14365RBalso have14366VHPhave deposition14367NNdeposition testimony14368NNtestimony saying14369VVGsay that14370IN/thatthat the14371DTthe state14372NNstate has14373VHZhave moved14374VVNmove large14375JJlarge historic14376JJhistoric houses14377NNShouse ,14378,, so14379RBso we14380PPwe have14381VHPhave a14382DTa hard14383JJhard time14384NNtime imagining14385VVGimagine that14386IN/thatthat a14387DTa house14388NNhouse is14389VBZbe more14390RBRmore difficult14391JJdifficult to14392TOto move14393VVmove .14394SENT. There14395EXthere 's14396VBZbe two14397CDtwo World14398NPWorld War14399NPWar I14400NNI memorials14401NNSmemorial that14402WDTthat were14403VBDbe in14404INin the14405DTthe center14406NNcenter of14407INof medians14408NNSmedian .14409SENT. The14410DTthe ...14411:... the14412DTthe reality14413NNreality is14414VBZbe that14415DTthat ...14416:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14417LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I14418PPI do14419VVPdo understand14420VVunderstand also14421RBalso that14422IN/thatthat the14423DTthe cross14424NNcross is14425VBZbe falling14426VVGfall apart14427RBapart and14428CCand has14429VHZhave to14430TOto be14431VBbe fixed14432VVNfix anyway14433RBanyway .14434SENT. [MS. MILLER]14435LOC[MS. MILLER] Well14436UHWell ,14437,, that14438WDTthat 's14439VBZbe ...14440:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14441LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So14442RBso whether14443INwhether it14444PPit 's14445VBZbe fixed14446VVNfix in14447INin a14448DTa move14449NNmove or14450CCor fixed14451VVNfix in14452INin place14453NNplace in14454INin situ14455NNsitu is14456VBZbe irrelevant14457JJirrelevant .14458SENT. It14459PPit still14460RBstill has14461VHZhave to14462TOto be14463VBbe fixed14464VVNfix .14465SENT. [MS. MILLER]14466LOC[MS. MILLER] That's14467NPThat's ...14468:... that14469WDTthat 's14470VBZbe right14471JJright .14472SENT. Exactly14473RBexactly .14474SENT. And14475CCand I14476PPI think14477VVPthink that14478IN/thatthat they14479PPthey 're14480VBPbe ignoring14481VVGignore the14482DTthe key14483JJkey problem14484NNproblem that14485IN/thatthat their14486PP$their own14487JJown experts14488NNSexpert have14489VHPhave ...14490:... have14491VHPhave warned14492VVNwarn them14493PPthem about14494RBabout ,14495,, which14496WDTwhich is14497VBZbe that14498IN/thatthat the14499DTthe current14500JJcurrent location14501NNlocation is14502VBZbe causing14503VVGcause its14504PP$its demise14505NNdemise .14506SENT. And14507CCand that14508DTthat 's14509VBZbe why14510WRBwhy I14511PPI say14512VVPsay that14513IN/thatthat I14514PPI think14515VVPthink our14516PP$our preferred14517JJpreferred remedy14518NNremedy ,14519,, which14520WDTwhich is14521VBZbe moving14522VVGmove it14523PPit somewhere14524RBsomewhere else14525RBelse ,14526,, is14527VBZbe the14528DTthe best14529JJSgood situation14530NNsituation for14531INfor the14532DTthe cross14533NNcross .14534SENT. It14535PPit can14536MDcan be14537VBbe placed14538VVNplace in14539INin a14540DTa place14541NNplace where14542WRBwhere people14543NNSpeople do14544VVPdo n't14545RBn't have14546VHhave to14547TOto risk14548VVrisk their14549PP$their lives14550NNSlife to14551TOto cross14552VVcross the14553DTthe street14554NNstreet .14555SENT. They14556PPthey can14557MDcan actually14558RBactually come14559VVcome pay14560VVpay their14561PP$their respects14562NNSrespect .14563SENT. They14564PPthey can14565MDcan do14566VVdo so14567RBso maybe14568RBmaybe a14569DTa little14570JJlittle bit14571NNbit more14572RBRmore privately14573RBprivately .14574SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14575LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] May14576NPmay ...14577:... may14578MDmay I14579PPI go14580VVgo back14581RBback to14582TOto the14583DTthe question14584NNquestion that14585WDTthat 's14586VHZhave been14587VBNbe underlying14588VVGunderlie some14589DTsome of14590INof my14591PP$my colleagues14592NNScolleague '14593POS' points14594NNSpoint and14595CCand points14596NNSpoint you14597PPyou 've14598VHPhave been14599VBNbe trying14600VVGtry to14601TOto make14602VVmake .14603SENT. It14604PPit is14605VBZbe contextual14606JJcontextual ,14607,, the14608DTthe endorsement14609NNendorsement test14610NNtest is14611VBZbe always14612RBalways contextual14613JJcontextual ,14614,, and14615CCand ,14616,, according14617VVGaccord to14618TOto you14619PPyou ,14620,, contextually14621RBcontextually ,14622,, the14623DTthe 5014624CD@card@ crosses14625VVZcross that14626IN/thatthat Justice14627NPJustice Alito14628NPAlito and14629CCand Breyer14630NPBreyer are14631VBPbe worried14632VVNworry about14633RBabout ,14634,, you14635PPyou do14636VVPdo n't14637RBn't think14638VVthink 2014639JJ@card@ it14640PPit 's14641VBZbe 5014642CD@card@ ?14643SENT? [MS. MILLER]14644LOC[MS. MILLER] I14645PPI ...14646:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]14647LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You14648PPyou still14649RBstill think14650VVPthink it14651PPit may14652MDmay be14653VBbe only14654RBonly 1014655CD@card@ or14656CCor 2014657CD@card@ .14658SENT. So14659RBso I14660PPI accept14661VVPaccept that14662RBthat .14663SENT. Can14664MDcan we14665PPwe ,14666,, given14667VVNgive the14668DTthe nature14669NNnature of14670INof the14671DTthe right14672NNright at14673INat issue14674NNissue ,14675,, given14676VVNgive that14677IN/thatthat the14678DTthe other14679JJother side14680NNside concedes14681VVZconcede that14682IN/thatthat there14683EXthere 's14684VBZbe extreme14685JJextreme proselytization14686NNproselytization ,14687,, that14688IN/thatthat there14689EXthere is14690VBZbe ...14691:... and14692CCand there14693EXthere has14694VHZhave to14695TOto be14696VBbe ,14697,, because14698INbecause the14699DTthe First14700NPFirst Amendment14701NPAmendment ...14702:... there14703EXthere has14704VHZhave to14705TOto be14706VBbe de14707FWde facto14708FWfacto coercion14709NNcoercion to14710TOto make14711VVmake any14712DTany sense14713NNsense of14714INof the14715DTthe Establishment14716NNestablishment Clause14717NNclause .14718SENT. And14719CCand defining14720VVGdefine that14721DTthat is14722VBZbe always14723RBalways going14724VVGgo to14725TOto involve14726VVinvolve context14727NNcontext .14728SENT. You14729PPyou were14730VBDbe giving14731VVGgive up14732RPup the14733DTthe reasonable14734JJreasonable observer14735NNobserver test14736NNtest .14737SENT. You14738PPyou were14739VBDbe talking14740VVGtalk about14741INabout an14742DTan objective14743JJobjective factors14744NNSfactor test14745NNtest .14746SENT. Could14747MDcould you14748PPyou go14749VVgo into14750INinto that14751IN/thatthat a14752DTa little14753JJlittle bit14754NNbit more14755RBRmore ?14756SENT? [MS. MILLER]14757LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes14758NPYes ,14759,, Your14760PP$your Honor14761NPHonor .14762SENT. I14763PPI think14764VVPthink Part14765NPPart 114766CD1 of14767INof our14768PP$our brief14769JJbrief details14770NNSdetail those14771DTthose factors14772NNSfactor ,14773,, and14774CCand I14775PPI think14776VVPthink all14777PDTall the14778DTthe factors14779NNSfactor relate14780VVPrelate to14781TOto the14782DTthe government14783NNgovernment 's14784POS's imprimatur14785NNimprimatur .14786SENT. So14787INso we14788PPwe ...14789:... once14790RBonce you14791PPyou 've14792VHPhave accepted14793VVNaccept that14794IN/thatthat we14795PPwe have14796VHPhave a14797DTa symbol14798NNsymbol that14799WDTthat only14800RBonly honors14801VVZhonor one14802CDone religion14803NNreligion ...14804:... because14805INbecause I14806PPI see14807VVPsee it14808PPit as14809INas sort14810NNsort of14811INof two14812CDtwo prongs14813NNSprong .14814SENT. You14815PPyou 're14816VBPbe testing14817VVGtest how14818WRBhow ...14819:... you14820PPyou know14821VVPknow ,14822,, is14823VBZbe this14824DTthis a14825DTa sectarian14826JJsectarian symbol14827NNsymbol ?14828SENT? Does14829VVZdo it14830PPit ,14831,, you14832PPyou know14833VVPknow ,14834,, prefer14835VVPprefer one14836CDone religion14837NNreligion to14838TOto another14839DTanother ?14840SENT? And14841CCand then14842RBthen ,14843,, if14844INif so14845RBso ,14846,, is14847VBZbe it14848PPit the14849DTthe government14850NNgovernment putting14851VVGput its14852PP$its hands14853NNShand on14854INon it14855PPit ?14856SENT? I14857PPI 'd14858MDwould say14859VVsay the14860DTthe Arlington14861NPArlington crosses14862VVZcross ,14863,, it14864PPit 's14865VBZbe not14866RBnot ,14867,, because14868INbecause one14869PPone 's14870VBZbe donated14871VVNdonate by14872INby Canada14873NPCanada .14874SENT. It14875PPit 's14876VBZbe pursuant14877JJpursuant to14878TOto this14879DTthis ,14880,, like14881INlike I14882PPI said14883VVDsay ,14884,, statute14885NNstatute that14886WDTthat allows14887VVZallow anyone14888NNanyone to14889TOto put14890VVput them14891PPthem up14892RPup .14893SENT. So14894INso the14895DTthe factors14896NNSfactor relate14897VVPrelate to14898TOto how14899WRBhow much14900JJmuch government14901NNgovernment support14902NNsupport is14903VBZbe there14904RBthere .14905SENT. When14906WRBwhen you14907PPyou see14908VVPsee it14909PPit in14910INin the14911DTthe ...14912:... you14913PPyou know14914VVPknow ,14915,, the14916DTthe size14917NNsize of14918INof it14919PPit can14920MDcan matter14921VVmatter insofar14922RBinsofar as14923INas it14924PPit says14925VVZsay how14926WRBhow enthusiastic14927JJenthusiastic the14928DTthe city14929NNcity is14930VBZbe about14931INabout it14932PPit .14933SENT. If14934INif you14935PPyou had14936VHDhave a14937DTa 90-foot14938NN90-foot cross14939NNcross and14940CCand a14941DTa two-foot14942NNtwo-foot Star14943NPStar of14944INof David14945NPDavid ,14946,, it14947PPit says14948VVZsay we14949PPwe really14950RBreally like14951VVPlike Christians14952NNSChristian ,14953,, we14954PPwe 're14955VBPbe okay14956JJokay with14957INwith ...14958:... with14959INwith Jews14960NNSJew ,14961,, you14962PPyou know14963VVPknow ,14964,, and14965CCand so14966RBso I14967PPI think14968VVPthink the14969DTthe size14970NNsize ,14971,, the14972DTthe placement14973NNplacement of14974INof it14975PPit ,14976,, obviously14977RBobviously ,14978,, in14979INin the14980DTthe most14981RBSmost prominent14982JJprominent parcel14983NNparcel of14984INof land14985NNland ,14986,, the14987DTthe more14988RBRmore prominent14989JJprominent it14990PPit is14991VBZbe ,14992,, the14993DTthe more14994RBRmore it14995PPit begs14996VVZbeg the14997DTthe question14998NNquestion why14999WRBwhy is15000VBZbe it15001PPit there15002RBthere ?15003SENT? Why15004WRBwhy did15005VVDdo the15006DTthe government15007NNgovernment allow15008VVallow this15009DTthis ?15010SENT? [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15011LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Can15012MDcan I15013PPI ...15014:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]15015LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well15016UHwell ,15017,, I15018PPI was15019VBDbe just15020RBjust going15021VVGgo to15022TOto say15023VVsay ,15024,, if15025INif ...15026:... if15027INif I15028PPI were15029VBDbe ,15030,, I15031PPI once15032RBonce was15033VBDbe ,15034,, a15035DTa lower15036JJRlow court15037NNcourt judge15038NNjudge and15039CCand I15040PPI get15041VVPget that15042DTthat type15043NNtype of15044INof analysis15045NNanalysis ,15046,, I15047PPI 'm15048VBPbe just15049RBjust going15050VVGgo to15051TOto throw15052VVthrow my15053PP$my hands15054NNShand up15055RPup .15056SENT. Those15057DTthose are15058VBPbe 2015059CD@card@ different15060JJdifferent facts15061NNSfact ,15062,, how15063WRBhow big15064JJbig is15065VBZbe it15066PPit ,15067,, where15068WRBwhere ,15069,, you15070PPyou know15071VVPknow ,15072,, is15073VBZbe it15074PPit located15075JJlocated .15076SENT. And15077CCand maybe15078RBmaybe that15079WDTthat 's15080VBZbe the15081DTthe best15082JJSgood we15083PPwe can15084MDcan do15085VVdo .15086SENT. But15087CCbut do15088VVdo you15089PPyou ...15090:... do15091VVPdo you15092PPyou have15093VHPhave like15094INlike something15095NNsomething more15096RBRmore concise15097JJconcise about15098INabout the15099DTthe test15100NNtest you15101PPyou would15102MDwould apply15103VVapply beyond15104INbeyond looking15105VVGlook at15106INat all15107PDTall the15108DTthe contextual15109JJcontextual factors15110NNSfactor and15111CCand history15112NNhistory and15113CCand all15114PDTall that15115DTthat ?15116SENT? [MS. MILLER]15117LOC[MS. MILLER] I15118PPI mean15119VVPmean ,15120,, I15121PPI think15122VVPthink it15123PPit 's15124VBZbe very15125RBvery difficult15126JJdifficult and15127CCand I15128PPI think15129VVPthink that15130DTthat 's15131VBZbe why15132WRBwhy the15133DTthe Court15134NPCourt has15135VHZhave n't15136RBn't come15137VVNcome up15138RPup with15139INwith that15140DTthat one15141CDone ,15142,, you15143PPyou know15144VVPknow ,15145,, singular15146JJsingular test15147NNtest ,15148,, because15149INbecause the15150DTthe cases15151NNScase are15152VBPbe complex15153JJcomplex .15154SENT. That15155DTthat 's15156VBZbe the15157DTthe Establishment15158NNestablishment Clause15159NNclause .15160SENT. And15161CCand I15162PPI think15163VVPthink it15164PPit actually15165RBactually helps15166VVZhelp us15167PPus ,15168,, you15169PPyou know15170VVPknow ,15171,, deal15172NNdeal with15173INwith each15174DTeach cross15175NNcross .15176SENT. That15177DTthat 's15178VBZbe why15179WRBwhy it15180PPit 's15181VBZbe easy15182JJeasy to15183TOto say15184VVsay you15185PPyou do15186VVPdo n't15187RBn't have15188VHhave to15189TOto tear15190VVtear down15191RPdown any15192DTany other15193JJother crosses15194NNScrosse after15195INafter this15196DTthis .15197SENT. Each15198DTeach one15199CDone is15200VBZbe evaluated15201VVNevaluate with15202INwith its15203PP$its specific15204JJspecific facts15205NNSfact .15206SENT. And15207CCand I15208PPI know15209VVPknow that15210IN/thatthat that15211DTthat is15212VBZbe not15213RBnot the15214DTthe best15215JJSgood answer15216NNanswer you15217PPyou want15218VVPwant to15219TOto hear15220VVhear .15221SENT. But15222CCbut the15223DTthe reality15224NNreality is15225VBZbe no15226DTno one15227CDone has15228VHZhave come15229VVNcome up15230RPup with15231INwith a15232DTa better15233JJRgood test15234NNtest than15235INthan Lemon15236NPLemon .15237SENT. We15238PPwe do15239VVPdo n't15240RBn't need15241VVneed the15242DTthe reasonable15243JJreasonable observer15244NNobserver one15245CDone .15246SENT. We15247PPwe can15248MDcan look15249VVlook at15250INat facts15251NNSfact .15252SENT. And15253CCand I15254PPI think15255VVPthink ...15256:... [JUSTICE ALITO]15257LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] You15258PPyou raised15259VVDraise ...15260:... so15261RBso you15262PPyou just15263RBjust said15264VVDsay no15265DTno other15266JJother cross15267NNcross has15268VHZhave to15269TOto be15270VBbe torn15271VVNtear down15272RPdown ,15273,, just15274RBjust this15275DTthis one15276CDone .15277SENT. Would15278MDwould you15279PPyou like15280VVlike us15281PPus to15282TOto write15283VVwrite that15284IN/thatthat in15285INin the15286DTthe opinion15287NNopinion ?15288SENT? [15289SYM[ LAUGHTER15290NNlaughter ]15291SYM] [MS. MILLER]15292LOC[MS. MILLER] I15293PPI mean15294VVPmean ,15295,, with15296INwith respect15297NNrespect ,15298,, this15299DTthis Court15300NPCourt has15301VHZhave done15302VVNdo that15303DTthat .15304SENT. I15305PPI mean15306VVPmean ,15307,, in15308INin its15309PP$its cases15310NNScase ,15311,, it15312PPit says15313VVZsay ,15314,, you15315PPyou know15316VVPknow ,15317,, we15318PPwe 're15319VBPbe not15320RBnot ...15321:... we15322PPwe 're15323VBPbe not15324RBnot deciding15325VVGdecide anything15326NNanything more15327RBRmore .15328SENT. Buono15329NPBuono is15330VBZbe a15331DTa perfect15332JJperfect example15333NNexample .15334SENT. I15335PPI do15336VVPdo n't15337RBn't ...15338:... [JUSTICE ALITO]15339LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Say15340VVPsay we15341PPwe 're15342VBPbe going15343VVGgo to15344TOto write15345VVwrite an15346DTan opinion15347NNopinion and15348CCand we15349PPwe 're15350VBPbe going15351VVGgo to15352TOto say15353VVsay this15354DTthis cross15355NNcross is15356VBZbe particularly15357RBparticularly bad15358JJbad .15359SENT. This15360DTthis one15361CDone has15362VHZhave to15363TOto be15364VBbe moved15365VVNmove ,15366,, torn15367VVNtear down15368RBdown ,15369,, transferred15370VVDtransfer ,15371,, so15372RBso forth15373RBforth .15374SENT. But15375CCbut every15376DTevery other15377JJother cross15378NNcross is15379VBZbe fine15380JJfine .15381SENT. [MS. MILLER]15382LOC[MS. MILLER] I15383PPI do15384VVPdo n't15385RBn't know15386VVknow why15387WRBwhy ...15388:... [JUSTICE ALITO]15389LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Is15390VBZbe that15391IN/thatthat what15392WPwhat you15393PPyou just15394RBjust said15395VVDsay ?15396SENT? [MS. MILLER]15397LOC[MS. MILLER] No15398NPNo ,15399,, Your15400PP$your Honor15401NPHonor ,15402,, that15403WDTthat 's15404VBZbe not15405RBnot what15406WPwhat I15407PPI said15408VVDsay .15409SENT. What15410WPWhat I15411PPI said15412VVDsay was15413VBDbe ...15414:... [JUSTICE ALITO]15415LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Okay15416NPOkay .15417SENT. I15418PPI misunderstood15419VVDmisunderstand .15420SENT. [MS. MILLER]15421LOC[MS. MILLER] ...15422:... that15423IN/thatthat this15424DTthis Court15425NPCourt says15426VVZsay ,15427,, you15428PPyou know15429VVPknow ,15430,, cases15431NNScase are15432VBPbe ill-suited15433JJill-suited for15434INfor sweeping15435JJsweeping pronouncements15436NNSpronouncement and15437CCand categorical15438JJcategorical rules15439NNSrule .15440SENT. So15441RBso ,15442,, when15443WRBwhen the15444DTthe Court15445NPCourt says15446VVZsay that15447IN/thatthat it15448PPit says15449VVZsay ,15450,, you15451PPyou know15452VVPknow ,15453,, not15454RBnot every15455DTevery cross15456NNcross is15457VBZbe going15458VVGgo to15459TOto be15460VBbe torn15461VVNtear down15462RPdown ,15463,, not15464RBnot every15465DTevery cross15466NNcross is15467VBZbe going15468VVGgo to15469TOto be15470VBbe held15471VVNhold ...15472:... upheld15473VVDuphold ,15474,, and15475CCand I15476PPI think15477VVPthink that15478DTthat 's15479VBZbe an15480DTan appropriate15481JJappropriate way15482NNway to15483TOto leave15484VVleave room15485NNroom for15486INfor exceptions15487NNSexception or15488CCor leave15489VVleave ...15490:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15491LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Your15492PP$your ...15493:... your15494PP$your argument15495NNargument sounds15496VVZsound in15497INin liberty15498NNliberty .15499SENT. You15500PPyou raise15501VVPraise an15502DTan important15503JJimportant liberty15504NNliberty argument15505NNargument .15506SENT. In15507INin thinking15508VVGthink about15509INabout a15510DTa liberty15511NNliberty claim15512NNclaim ,15513,, I15514PPI think15515VVPthink the15516DTthe Constitution15517NPConstitution tilts15518VVZtilt toward15519INtoward liberty15520NNliberty in15521INin its15522PP$its structure15523NNstructure ,15524,, and15525CCand one15526CDone of15527INof the15528DTthe ways15529NNSway it15530PPit does15531VVZdo so15532RBso is15533VBZbe there15534EXthere are15535VBPbe lots15536NNSlot of15537INof avenues15538NNSavenue for15539INfor you15540PPyou to15541TOto ...15542:... the15543DTthe Bladensburg15544NPBladensburg counsel15545NNcounsel could15546MDcould change15547VVchange its15548PP$its approach15549NNapproach here15550RBhere .15551SENT. The15552DTthe Maryland15553NPMaryland legislature15554NNlegislature could15555MDcould say15556VVsay no15557RBno more15558JJRmore .15559SENT. The15560DTthe Maryland15561NPMaryland constitution15562NNconstitution ,15563,, as15564INas Judge15565NPJudge Sutton15566NPSutton would15567MDwould remind15568VVremind us15569PPus ,15570,, could15571MDcould ,15572,, or15573CCor the15574DTthe Maryland15575NPMaryland courts15576NNScourt could15577MDcould prohibit15578VVprohibit it15579PPit .15580SENT. With15581INwith that15582DTthat in15583INin mind15584NNmind ,15585,, the15586DTthe Establishment15587NNestablishment Clause15588NNclause test15589NNtest referenced15590VVDreference a15591DTa historical15592JJhistorical practice15593NNpractice can15594MDcan be15595VBbe thought15596VVNthink of15597INof as15598RBas setting15599VVGset a15600DTa floor15601NNfloor ,15602,, an15603DTan important15604JJimportant one15605CDone ,15606,, but15607CCbut there15608EXthere are15609VBPbe other15610JJother ways15611NNSway the15612DTthe Constitution15613NPConstitution tilts15614VVZtilt toward15615INtoward liberty15616NNliberty and15617CCand other15618JJother avenues15619NNSavenue .15620SENT. How15621WRBHow should15622MDshould we15623PPwe think15624VVthink about15625INabout that15626DTthat ,15627,, or15628CCor should15629MDshould we15630PPwe think15631VVPthink about15632RBabout that15633IN/thatthat at15634INat all15635DTall ,15636,, or15637CCor is15638VBZbe that15639IN/thatthat irrelevant15640JJirrelevant to15641TOto us15642PPus ?15643SENT? [MS. MILLER]15644LOC[MS. MILLER] I15645PPI mean15646VVPmean ,15647,, liberty15648NNliberty 's15649VBZbe absolutely15650RBabsolutely important15651JJimportant .15652SENT. And15653CCand I15654PPI think15655VVPthink that15656DTthat 's15657VBZbe where15658WRBwhere the15659DTthe ...15660:... the15661DTthe brief15662NNbrief of15663INof the15664DTthe Baptist15665NPBaptist Joint15666NPJoint Committee15667NPCommittee and15668CCand all15669DTall of15670INof the15671DTthe Christian15672JJChristian groups15673NNSgroup ,15674,, you15675PPyou know15676VVPknow ,15677,, joined15678VVDjoin saying15679VVGsay that15680IN/thatthat a15681DTa ruling15682NNruling upholding15683VVGuphold this15684DTthis cross15685NNcross would15686MDwould definitely15687RBdefinitely degrade15688VVdegrade and15689CCand damage15690VVdamage their15691PP$their ...15692:... their15693PP$their free15694JJfree exercise15695NNexercise of15696INof their15697PP$their religious15698JJreligious liberty15699NNliberty beliefs15700NNSbelief .15701SENT. With15702INwith respect15703NNrespect to15704TOto a15705DTa test15706NNtest ,15707,, even15708RBeven in15709INin Town15710NPTown of15711INof Greece15712NPGreece ,15713,, the15714DTthe Court15715NPCourt talks15716NNStalk about15717INabout not15718RBnot allowing15719VVGallow a15720DTa policy15721NNpolicy that15722WDTthat excludes15723VVZexclude or15724CCor discriminates15725VVZdiscriminate against15726INagainst non-believers15727NNSnon-believer .15728SENT. And15729CCand I15730PPI think15731VVPthink ,15732,, in15733INin that15734DTthat regard15735NNregard ,15736,, it15737PPit actually15738RBactually even15739RBeven goes15740VVZgo farther15741RBRfarther in15742INin favor15743NNfavor of15744INof non-believers15745NNSnon-believer than15746INthan Marsh15747NPMarsh ,15748,, because15749INbecause I15750PPI believe15751VVPbelieve some15752DTsome Justices15753NPSJustices interpreted15754VVDinterpret Marsh15755NPMarsh to15756TOto mean15757VVmean you15758PPyou can15759MDcan disregard15760VVdisregard atheists15761NNSatheist ,15762,, and15763CCand in15764INin Town15765NPTown of15766INof Greece15767NPGreece ,15768,, the15769DTthe Court15770NPCourt said15771VVDsay ,15772,, no15773UHno ,15774,, you15775PPyou can15776MDcan 't15777RB't .15778SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15779LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] I15780PPI guess15781VVPguess my15782PP$my question15783NNquestion was15784VBDbe ,15785,, in15786INin thinking15787VVGthink about15788INabout our15789PP$our role15790NNrole ,15791,, what15792WPwhat is15793VBZbe the15794DTthe role15795NNrole of15796INof this15797DTthis Court15798NPCourt in15799INin a15800DTa case15801NNcase like15802INlike this15803DTthis ?15804SENT? Should15805MDshould it15806PPit matter15807VVmatter that15808IN/thatthat we15809PPwe know15810VVPknow that15811IN/thatthat the15812DTthe Bladensburg15813NPBladensburg council15814NNcouncil ,15815,, the15816DTthe state15817NNstate legislature15818NNlegislature of15819INof Maryland15820NPMaryland ,15821,, the15822DTthe Maryland15823NPMaryland constitution15824NNconstitution ,15825,, are15826VBPbe all15827RBall there15828RBthere ,15829,, or15830CCor is15831VBZbe that15832IN/thatthat irrelevant15833JJirrelevant to15834TOto how15835WRBhow we15836PPwe think15837VVPthink about15838INabout this15839DTthis ?15840SENT? [MS. MILLER]15841LOC[MS. MILLER] May15842NPmay I15843PPI ?15844SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]15845LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You15846PPyou have15847VHPhave a15848DTa couple15849NNcouple minutes15850NNSminute left15851VVDleave .15852SENT. [MS. MILLER]15853LOC[MS. MILLER] Okay15854NPOkay .15855SENT. How15856WRBHow ...15857:... how15858WRBhow Maryland15859NPMaryland decides15860VVZdecide to15861TOto ...15862:... I15863PPI guess15864VVPguess I15865PPI 'm15866VBPbe just15867RBjust not15868RBnot quite15869RBquite understanding15870VVGunderstand the15871DTthe question15872NNquestion .15873SENT. Is15874VBZbe it15875PPit how15876JJhow ...15877:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15878LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] The15879DTthe fact15880NNfact that15881IN/thatthat there15882EXthere are15883VBPbe other15884JJother ways15885NNSway in15886INin which15887WDTwhich the15888DTthe cross15889NNcross ...15890:... other15891JJother bodies15892NNSbody that15893WDTthat can15894MDcan decide15895VVdecide the15896DTthe cross15897NNcross is15898VBZbe too15899RBtoo much15900RBmuch ,15901,, the15902DTthe Maryland15903NPMaryland ...15904:... the15905DTthe local15906JJlocal council15907NNcouncil could15908MDcould ,15909,, the15910DTthe Maryland15911NPMaryland legislature15912NNlegislature .15913SENT. And15914CCand I15915PPI 'm15916VBPbe not15917RBnot saying15918VVGsay that15919DTthat 's15920VBZbe the15921DTthe right15922JJright answer15923NNanswer .15924SENT. I15925PPI 'm15926VBPbe just15927RBjust saying15928VVGsay ,15929,, is15930VBZbe that15931IN/thatthat relevant15932JJrelevant to15933TOto how15934WRBhow we15935PPwe think15936VVPthink about15937INabout our15938PP$our role15939NNrole in15940INin a15941DTa case15942NNcase like15943INlike this15944DTthis or15945CCor not15946RBnot ?15947SENT? [MS. MILLER]15948LOC[MS. MILLER] So15949RBso if15950INif ,15951,, like15952VVlike ,15953,, the15954DTthe Maryland15955NPMaryland legislator15956NNlegislator decides15957VVZdecide that15958IN/thatthat the15959DTthe cross15960NNcross is15961VBZbe universal15962JJuniversal or15963CCor ?15964SENT? [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15965LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] No15966RBno ,15967,, that15968IN/thatthat the15969DTthe cross15970NNcross should15971MDshould come15972VVcome down15973RPdown .15974SENT. [MS. MILLER]15975LOC[MS. MILLER] I15976PPI see15977VVPsee .15978SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15979LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] In15980INin other15981JJother words15982NNSword ,15983,, the15984DTthe Bladensburg15985NPBladensburg council15986NNcouncil could15987MDcould transfer15988VVtransfer the15989DTthe property15990NNproperty ...15991:... [MS. MILLER]15992LOC[MS. MILLER] Oh15993NPOh .15994SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]15995LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...15996:... to15997TOto the15998DTthe Maryland15999NPMaryland legislature16000NNlegislature .16001SENT. The16002DTthe Maryland16003NPMaryland state16004NNstate courts16005NNScourt ,16006,, the16007DTthe Maryland16008NPMaryland court16009NNcourt of16010INof appeals16011NNSappeal could16012MDcould decide16013VVdecide .16014SENT. [MS. MILLER]16015LOC[MS. MILLER] The16016DTthe remedy16017NNremedy ,16018,, is16019VBZbe that16020IN/thatthat what16021WPwhat you16022PPyou 're16023VBPbe getting16024VVGget at16025INat ?16026SENT? [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]16027LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Yeah16028NPYeah .16029SENT. [MS. MILLER]16030LOC[MS. MILLER] Yes16031NPYes .16032SENT. I16033PPI mean16034VVPmean ,16035,, I16036PPI think16037VVPthink the16038DTthe remedy16039NNremedy is16040VBZbe certainly16041RBcertainly relevant16042JJrelevant to16043TOto considering16044VVGconsider that16045DTthat ...16046:... that16047IN/thatthat it16048PPit does16049VVZdo n't16050RBn't need16051VVneed to16052TOto be16053VBbe torn16054VVNtear down16055RPdown ,16056,, but16057CCbut I16058PPI do16059VVPdo n't16060RBn't know16061VVknow if16062INif that16063DTthat plays16064NNSplay into16065INinto the16066DTthe question16067NNquestion of16068INof ...16069:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16070LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I16071PPI think16072VVPthink the16073DTthe question16074NNquestion ...16075:... [MS. MILLER]16076LOC[MS. MILLER] ...16077:... is16078VBZbe this16079DTthis constitutional16080JJconstitutional .16081SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16082LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...16083:... is16084VBZbe different16085JJdifferent .16086SENT. I16087PPI think16088VVPthink the16089DTthe question16090NNquestion is16091VBZbe do16092VVdo we16093PPwe think16094VVthink that16095DTthat ...16096:... since16097INsince there16098EXthere are16099VBPbe other16100JJother avenues16101NNSavenue available16102JJavailable ,16103,, that16104IN/thatthat the16105DTthe Constitution16106NPConstitution does16107VVZdo n't16108RBn't require16109VVrequire this16110DTthis floor16111NNfloor ...16112:... [MS. MILLER]16113LOC[MS. MILLER] I16114PPI see16115VVPsee ...16116:... I16117PPI see16118VVPsee .16119SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16120LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...16121:... as16122INas a16123DTa constitutional16124JJconstitutional floor16125NNfloor for16126INfor an16127DTan Establishment16128NNestablishment Clause16129NNclause violation16130NNviolation .16131SENT. I16132PPI think16133VVPthink that16134DTthat 's16135VBZbe the16136DTthe question16137NNquestion that16138WDTthat 's16139VBZbe being16140VBGbe asked16141VVNask .16142SENT. [MS. MILLER]16143LOC[MS. MILLER] Oh16144NPOh ,16145,, then16146RBthen the16147DTthe answer16148NNanswer is16149VBZbe no16150UHno ,16151,, I16152PPI do16153VVPdo n't16154RBn't think16155VVthink that16156IN/thatthat that16157DTthat 's16158VBZbe relevant16159JJrelevant at16160INat all16161DTall .16162SENT. I16163PPI mean16164VVPmean ,16165,, the16166DTthe Establishment16167NNestablishment Clause16168NNclause is16169VBZbe ...16170:... you16171PPyou know16172VVPknow ,16173,, trumps16174NNStrump statutes16175NNSstatute and16176CCand ...16177:... and16178CCand so16179RBso forth16180RBforth .16181SENT. So16182RBso I16183PPI think16184VVPthink that16185IN/thatthat would16186MDwould be16187VBbe ...16188:... yes16189UHyes .16190SENT. So16191RBso we16192PPwe ask16193VVPask that16194IN/thatthat this16195DTthis Court16196NPCourt affirm16197VVaffirm .16198SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]16199LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank16200VVthank you16201PPyou ,16202,, counsel16203NNcounsel .16204SENT. Three16205CDThree minutes16206NNSminute ,16207,, Mr16208NPMr .16209SENT. Katyal16210NPKatyal .16211SENT.

[MR. KATYAL]16212LOC[MR. KATYAL] Thank16213VVthank you16214PPyou .16215SENT. Ours16216PPours is16217VBZbe a16218DTa middle16219JJmiddle path16220NNpath between16221INbetween my16222PP$my three16223CDthree excellent16224JJexcellent friends16225NNSfriend .16226SENT. The16227DTthe easiest16228JJSeasy way16229NNway to16230TOto resolve16231VVresolve this16232DTthis case16233NNcase in16234INin the16235DTthe ...16236:... is16237VBZbe to16238TOto say16239VVsay ,16240,, in16241INin the16242DTthe wake16243NNwake of16244INof World16245NPWorld War16246NPWar I16247NPI ,16248,, crosses16249VVZcross like16250INlike this16251DTthis one16252CDone have16253VHPhave an16254DTan independent16255JJindependent secular16256JJsecular meaning16257NNmeaning .16258SENT. As16259INas Justice16260NPJustice Kavanaugh16261NPKavanaugh said16262VVDsay before16263RBbefore ,16264,, this16265DTthis Court16266NPCourt 's16267POS's decisions16268NNSdecision recognize16269VVPrecognize that16270IN/thatthat symbols16271NNSsymbol ,16272,, including16273VVGinclude religious16274JJreligious symbols16275NNSsymbol ,16276,, have16277VHPhave dual16278JJdual meanings16279NNSmeaning ,16280,, and16281CCand you16282PPyou can16283MDcan look16284VVlook to16285TOto Van16286NPVan Orden16287NPOrden for16288INfor that16289WDTthat or16290CCor you16291PPyou could16292MDcould just16293RBjust look16294VVlook up16295RPup .16296SENT. And16297CCand ...16298:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]16299LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But16300CCbut does16301VVZdo ...16302:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16303LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr16304NPMr .16305SENT. Katyal16306NPKatyal ,16307,, how16308WRBhow ...16309:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]16310LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...16311:... the16312DTthe cross16313VVPcross really16314RBreally have16315VHhave a16316DTa dual16317JJdual meaning16318NNmeaning ,16319,, Mr16320NPMr .16321SENT. Katyal16322NPKatyal ?16323SENT? It16324PPit is16325VBZbe the16326DTthe preeminent16327JJpreeminent symbol16328NNsymbol of16329INof Christianity16330NNChristianity .16331SENT. People16332NNSpeople wear16333VVPwear crosses16334NNScrosse as16335RBas ...16336:... to16337TOto show16338VVshow their16339PP$their devotion16340NNdevotion to16341TOto the16342DTthe Christian16343JJChristian faith16344NNfaith .16345SENT. [MR. KATYAL]16346LOC[MR. KATYAL] We16347PPwe do16348VVPdo n't16349RBn't disagree16350VVdisagree with16351INwith any16352DTany of16353INof that16354DTthat ,16355,, Justice16356NPJustice Ginsburg16357NPGinsburg .16358SENT. Our16359PP$our only16360JJonly point16361NNpoint ...16362:... it16363PPit 's16364VBZbe the16365DTthe same16366JJsame one16367CDone that16368IN/thatthat the16369DTthe Buono16370NPBuono plurality16371NNplurality made16372VVNmake ...16373:... is16374VBZbe that16375IN/thatthat crosses16376NNScrosse ,16377,, particularly16378RBparticularly World16379NPWorld War16380NPWar I16381NNI ones16382NNSone ,16383,, have16384VHPhave a16385DTa ...16386:... have16387VHPhave a16388DTa second16389JJsecond meaning16390NNmeaning ,16391,, and16392CCand that16393IN/thatthat meaning16394NNmeaning is16395VBZbe what16396WPwhat makes16397VVZmake it16398PPit constitutional16399JJconstitutional .16400SENT. That16401DTthat 's16402VBZbe why16403WRBwhy we16404PPwe disagree16405VVPdisagree with16406INwith my16407PP$my friends16408NNSfriend here16409RBhere ,16410,, because16411INbecause we16412PPwe think16413VVPthink that16414IN/thatthat their16415PP$their approach16416NNapproach would16417MDwould ...16418:... what16419WPwhat ...16420:... would16421MDwould risk16422VVrisk the16423DTthe destruction16424NNdestruction of16425INof this16426DTthis 93-year-old16427JJ93-year-old memorial16428NNmemorial ,16429,, which16430WDTwhich ,16431,, you16432PPyou know16433VVPknow ...16434:... which16435WDTwhich ...16436:... which16437WDTwhich has16438VHZhave that16439DTthat real16440JJreal long16441JJlong tradition16442NNtradition going16443VVGgo back16444RBback to16445TOto the16446DTthe Field16447NPField of16448INof Flanders16449NPFlanders ...16450:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16451LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr16452NPMr .16453SENT. Katyal16454NPKatyal ...16455:... [MR. KATYAL]16456LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...16457:... and16458CCand the16459DTthe like16460INlike .16461SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16462LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...16463:... there16464EXthere 's16465VBZbe a16466DTa call16467NNcall and16468CCand a16469DTa discussion16470NNdiscussion about16471INabout undoing16472VVGundo Lemon16473NPLemon altogether16474RBaltogether .16475SENT. [MR. KATYAL]16476LOC[MR. KATYAL] Right16477NPRight .16478SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16479LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Substituting16480VVGsubstitute something16481NNsomething like16482INlike a16483DTa coercion16484NNcoercion test16485NNtest ,16486,, whatever16487WDTwhatever ,16488,, with16489INwith or16490CCor without16491INwithout limits16492NNSlimit .16493SENT. What16494WPWhat position16495NNposition are16496VBPbe you16497PPyou taking16498VVGtake ...16499:... [MR. KATYAL]16500LOC[MR. KATYAL] We16501PPwe profound16502JJprofound ...16503:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]16504LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...16505:... on16506INon behalf16507NNbehalf of16508INof the16509DTthe commission16510NNcommission ...16511:... of16512INof ...16513:... [MR. KATYAL]16514LOC[MR. KATYAL] We16515PPwe profoundly16516RBprofoundly disagree16517VVPdisagree .16518SENT. We16519PPwe think16520VVPthink it16521PPit 's16522VBZbe unnecessary16523JJunnecessary and16524CCand unwise16525JJunwise .16526SENT. It16527PPit 's16528VBZbe unnecessary16529JJunnecessary because16530INbecause ,16531,, as16532INas their16533PP$their own16534JJown briefs16535NNSbrief say16536VVPsay ...16537:... the16538DTthe best16539JJSgood evidence16540NNevidence of16541INof this16542DTthis is16543VBZbe the16544DTthe last16545JJlast pages16546NNSpage of16547INof each16548DTeach of16549INof the16550DTthe briefs16551NNSbrief by16552INby solicitor16553NNsolicitor general16554NNgeneral and16555CCand the16556DTthe Legion16557NNlegion .16558SENT. They16559PPthey say16560VVPsay the16561DTthe existing16562JJexisting tests16563NNStest make16564VVPmake this16565DTthis an16566DTan easy16567JJeasy case16568NNcase to16569TOto save16570VVsave the16571DTthe cross16572NNcross .16573SENT. So16574RBso it16575PPit 's16576VBZbe not16577RBnot presented16578VVNpresent here16579RBhere .16580SENT. If16581INif ,16582,, Justice16583NPJustice Gorsuch16584NPGorsuch ,16585,, you16586PPyou 're16587VBPbe concerned16588VVNconcern about16589INabout Lemon16590NPLemon ,16591,, wait16592NNwait for16593INfor a16594DTa case16595NNcase in16596INin which16597WDTwhich it16598PPit has16599VHZhave some16600DTsome bite16601NNbite .16602SENT. Here16603RBhere ,16604,, every16605DTevery test16606NNtest ,16607,, whatever16608WDTwhatever test16609VVPtest you16610PPyou apply16611VVapply ...16612:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]16613LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well16614UHWell ...16615:... [MR. KATYAL]16616LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...16617:... yields16618VVZyield the16619DTthe same16620JJsame result16621NNresult .16622SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]16623LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...16624:... you16625PPyou 're16626VBPbe ...16627:... you16628PPyou 're16629VBPbe ...16630:... you16631PPyou 're16632VBPbe in16633INin the16634DTthe same16635JJsame boat16636NNboat ,16637,, though16638RBthough ,16639,, saying16640VVGsay apply16641VVapply Lemon16642NPLemon ...16643:... keep16644VVkeep Lemon16645NPLemon ,16646,, keep16647VVkeep it16648PPit ...16649:... keep16650VVkeep it16651PPit around16652RParound for16653INfor a16654DTa rainy16655JJrainy day16656NNday ,16657,, but16658CCbut please16659UHplease ,16660,, please16661UHplease ,16662,, please16663UHplease ,16664,, do16665VVPdo not16666RBnot apply16667VVapply Lemon16668NPLemon to16669TOto this16670DTthis case16671NNcase .16672SENT. [MR. KATYAL]16673LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well16674UHwell ,16675,, we16676PPwe 're16677VBPbe happy16678JJhappy with16679INwith you16680PPyou applying16681VVGapply Lemon16682NPLemon .16683SENT. Our16684PP$our brief16685NNbrief says16686VVZsay that16687IN/thatthat that16688DTthat would16689MDwould be16690VBbe constitutional16691JJconstitutional .16692SENT. We16693PPwe just16694RBjust think16695VVPthink this16696DTthis Court16697NPCourt in16698INin Van16699NPVan Orden16700NPOrden has16701VHZhave said16702VVNsay you16703PPyou did16704VVDdo n't16705RBn't ...16706:... for16707INfor passive16708JJpassive monuments16709NNSmonument ,16710,, which16711WDTwhich are16712VBPbe n't16713RBn't necessarily16714RBnecessarily ...16715:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]16716LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What16717WPWhat if16718INif we16719PPwe think16720VVPthink ...16721:... [MR. KATYAL]16722LOC[MR. KATYAL] ...16723:... the16724DTthe most16725RBSmost important16726JJimportant ones16727NNSone ...16728:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]16729LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...16730:... what16731WPwhat if16732INif we16733PPwe think16734VVPthink it16735PPit 's16736VBZbe unconstitutional16737JJunconstitutional under16738INunder Lemon16739NPLemon ?16740SENT? What16741WPWhat 's16742VBZbe your16743PP$your view16744NNview then16745RBthen ?16746SENT? [MR. KATYAL]16747LOC[MR. KATYAL] Well16748UHwell ,16749,, I16750PPI think16751VVPthink it16752PPit would16753MDwould be16754VBbe very16755RBvery impossible16756JJimpossible for16757INfor reasons16758NNSreason that16759IN/thatthat the16760DTthe ...16761:... for16762INfor ...16763:... for16764INfor reasons16765NNSreason our16766PP$our brief16767NNbrief explains16768VVZexplain to16769TOto find16770VVfind it16771PPit .16772SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]16773LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] And16774CCand what16775WPwhat if16776INif ...16777:... what16778WPwhat if16779INif it16780PPit 's16781VBZbe unconstitutional16782JJunconstitutional under16783INunder Lemon16784NPLemon ?16785SENT? [JUSTICE GORSUCH]16786LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Yeah16787NPYeah .16788SENT. The16789DTthe other16790JJother side16791NNside so16792RBso argues16793VVZargue .16794SENT. So16795INso I16796PPI ...16797:... I16798PPI 'd16799MDwould appreciate16800VVappreciate an16801DTan answer16802NNanswer to16803TOto that16804DTthat question16805NNquestion .16806SENT. [MR. KATYAL]16807LOC[MR. KATYAL] Yeah16808NPYeah ,16809,, so16810RBso ,16811,, I16812PPI mean16813VVPmean ,16814,, we16815PPwe ...16816:... if16817INif it16818PPit 's16819VBZbe unconstitutional16820JJunconstitutional ,16821,, then16822RBthen ...16823:... you16824PPyou know16825VVPknow ,16826,, then16827RBthen I16828PPI think16829VVPthink we16830PPwe would16831MDwould say16832VVsay ,16833,, you16834PPyou know16835VVPknow ,16836,, you16837PPyou should16838MDshould take16839VVtake a16840DTa look16841NNlook at16842INat Lemon16843NPLemon because16844INbecause then16845RBthen it16846PPit would16847MDwould be16848VBbe necessarily16849RBnecessarily presented16850VVNpresent .16851SENT. [16852SYM[ LAUGHTER16853NNlaughter ]16854SYM] [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]16855LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Right16856RBright .16857SENT. [MR. KATYAL]16858LOC[MR. KATYAL] Right16859RBright .16860SENT. But16861CCbut we16862PPwe think16863VVPthink you16864PPyou 'd16865MDwould have16866VHhave to16867TOto do16868VVdo so16869RBso much16870RBmuch work16871VVwork to16872TOto get16873VVget there16874RBthere ,16875,, Justice16876NPJustice Kavanaugh16877NPKavanaugh ,16878,, that16879WDTthat it16880PPit would16881MDwould be16882VBbe a16883DTa distortion16884NNdistortion of16885INof Lemon16886NPLemon .16887SENT. And16888CCand my16889PP$my friends16890NNSfriend say16891VVPsay that16892IN/thatthat there16893EXthere are16894VBPbe ,16895,, you16896PPyou know16897VVPknow ,16898,, disagreements16899NNSdisagreement in16900INin the16901DTthe lower16902JJRlow courts16903NNScourt .16904SENT. Our16905PP$our cert16906NNcert petition16907NNpetition outlines16908VVZoutline the16909DTthe disagreements16910NNSdisagreement in16911INin the16912DTthe lower16913JJRlow courts16914NNScourt .16915SENT. They16916PPthey 're16917VBPbe largely16918RBlargely on16919INon crosses16920NNScrosse .16921SENT. Our16922PP$our test16923NNtest resolves16924VVZresolve that16925DTthat .16926SENT. It16927PPit resolves16928VVZresolve the16929DTthe objective16930JJobjective observer16931NNobserver disputes16932NNSdispute and16933CCand resolves16934VVZresolve the16935DTthe longetivity16936NNlongetivity question16937NNquestion of16938INof which16939WDTwhich there16940EXthere 's16941VBZbe a16942DTa circuit16943NNcircuit split16944NNsplit .16945SENT. But16946CCbut to16947TOto take16948VVtake this16949DTthis case16950NNcase and16951CCand go16952VVgo further16953RBRfurther ,16954,, particularly16955RBparticularly because16956RBbecause ,16957,, you16958PPyou know16959VVPknow ,16960,, as16961INas the16962DTthe Chief16963NPChief Justice16964NPJustice said16965VVDsay ,16966,, they16967PPthey 're16968VBPbe selling16969VVGsell you16970PPyou some16971DTsome clean16972JJclean test16973NNtest ,16974,, but16975CCbut in16976INin the16977DTthe end16978NNend ,16979,, when16980WRBwhen ...16981:... you16982PPyou know16983VVPknow ,16984,, when16985WRBwhen push16986NNpush comes16987VVZcome to16988TOto shove16989VVshove ,16990,, they16991PPthey have16992VHPhave indirect16993JJindirect coercion16994NNcoercion ,16995,, proselytization16996NNproselytization ,16997,, you16998PPyou know16999VVPknow ,17000,, and17001CCand all17002PDTall these17003DTthese other17004JJother things17005NNSthing .17006SENT. Who17007WPwho knows17008VVZknow what17009WPwhat those17010DTthose mean17011NNmean .17012SENT. The17013DTthe one17014CDone thing17015NNthing we17016PPwe do17017VVPdo know17018VVknow it17019PPit means17020VVZmean is17021VBZbe that17022IN/thatthat it17023PPit 's17024VBZbe going17025VVGgo to17026TOto permit17027VVpermit crosses17028NNScrosse like17029INlike the17030DTthe Lake17031NPLake County17032NPCounty cross17033NNcross with17034INwith Jesus17035NPJesus nailed17036VVDnail to17037TOto the17038DTthe center17039NNcenter of17040INof it17041PPit in17042INin public17043JJpublic parks17044NNSpark .17045SENT. And17046CCand that17047IN/thatthat ,17048,, to17049TOto me17050PPme ,17051,, is17052VBZbe a17053DTa radical17054JJradical change17055NNchange in17056INin the17057DTthe law17058NNlaw .17059SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]17060LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank17061VVthank you17062PPyou ,17063,, counsel17064NNcounsel .17065SENT. The17066DTthe case17067NNcase is17068VBZbe submitted17069VVNsubmit .17070SENT.