<s> /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/ptreetagger/Apple.xml-src.tt /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/treetagger/Apple.xml-out.tt pos tagset built from model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par en lemma of the model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par - [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] We2PPwe 'll3MDwill hear4VVhear argument5NNargument first6RBfirst this7DTthis morning8NNmorning in9INin Case10NPCase 17-20411CD@card@ ,12,, Apple13NPApple versus14CCversus Pepper15NPPepper .16SENT. Mr17NPMr .18SENT. Wall19NPWall .20SENT.

[MR. D.M. WALL]21LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Thank22VVthank you23PPyou ,24,, Mr25NPMr .26SENT. Chief27NPChief Justice28NPJustice ,29,, and30CCand may31MDmay it32PPit please33VVplease the34DTthe Court35NPCourt :36:: The37DTthe only38JJonly damages39NNSdamage theory40NNtheory in41INin this42DTthis monopolization43NNmonopolization action44NNaction is45VBZbe rooted46VVNroot in47INin a48DTa 3049CD@card@ percent50NNpercent commission51NNcommission that52IN/thatthat Apple53NPApple charges54NNScharge app55NPApp developers56NNSdeveloper and57CCand which58WDTwhich allegedly59RBallegedly causes60VVZcause those61DTthose developers62NNSdeveloper to63TOto increase64VVincrease app65NPApp prices66NNSprice to67TOto consumers68NNSconsumer .69SENT. The70DTthe case71NNcase is72VBZbe barred73VVNbar by74INby the75DTthe Court76NPCourt 's77POS's Illinois78NPIllinois Brick79NPBrick doctrine80NNdoctrine because81INbecause the82DTthe developers83NNSdeveloper '84POS' pricing85NNpricing decisions86NNSdecision are87VBPbe necessarily88RBnecessarily in89INin the90DTthe causal91JJcausal chain92NNchain that93WDTthat links94VVZlink the95DTthe commission96NNcommission to97TOto any98DTany consumer99NNconsumer damages100NNSdamage .101SENT. If102INif the103DTthe commission104NNcommission increases105VVZincrease beyond106INbeyond the107DTthe competitive108JJcompetitive level109NNlevel ,110,, but111CCbut apps112NNSapps developers113NNSdeveloper do114VVPdo not115RBnot change116VVchange their117PP$their apps118NNSapps prices119NNSprice ,120,, consumers121NNSconsumer suffer122VVPsuffer no123DTno damages124NNSdamage .125SENT. And126CCand if127INif app128NPApp developers129NNSdeveloper do130VVPdo change131VVchange their132PP$their prices133NNSprice to134TOto pass135VVpass on136INon some137DTsome or138CCor all139DTall of140INof the141DTthe over-charge142NNover-charge ,143,, well144RBwell ,145,, that146WDTthat is147VBZbe precisely148RBprecisely the149DTthe kind150NNkind of151INof damages152NNSdamage theory153NNtheory that154IN/thatthat the155DTthe Illinois156NPIllinois Brick157NPBrick doctrine158NNdoctrine prohibits159VVZprohibit .160SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]161LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is162VBZbe there163RBthere any164DTany ...165:... in166INin ...167:... in168INin your169PP$your view170NNview ,171,, is172VBZbe there173RBthere any174DTany first175JJfirst buyer176NNbuyer in177INin this178DTthis picture179NNpicture ?180SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]181LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Excuse182NNexcuse me183PPme ?184SENT? [JUSTICE GINSBURG]185LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is186VBZbe there187RBthere any188DTany first189JJfirst buyer190NNbuyer in191INin this192DTthis picture193NNpicture ?194SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]195LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Well196UHwell ,197,, there198EXthere 's199VBZbe ...200:... there201EXthere 's202VBZbe two203CDtwo different204JJdifferent buyers205NNSbuyer in206INin this207DTthis picture208NNpicture .209SENT. There210EXthere are211VBPbe the212DTthe app213NPApp developers214NNSdeveloper who215WPwho ,216,, by217INby contract218NNcontract with219INwith Apple220NPApple ,221,, are222VBPbe buying223VVGbuy a224DTa package225NNpackage of226INof services227NNSservice which228WDTwhich include229VVPinclude distribution230NNdistribution and231CCand software232NNsoftware and233CCand intellectual234JJintellectual property235NNproperty and236CCand testing237NNtesting and238CCand ...239:... and240CCand so241RBso forth242RBforth .243SENT. And244CCand then245RBthen the246DTthe plaintiffs247NNSplaintiff in248INin this249DTthis case250NNcase are251VBPbe the252DTthe ...253:... the254DTthe buyer255NNbuyer of256INof the257DTthe apps258NNSapps themselves259PPthemselves that260WDTthat are261VBPbe made262VVNmake with263INwith that264DTthat package265NNpackage of266INof goods267NNSgood and268CCand services269NNSservice and270CCand ...271:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]272LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] My273NPMy ...274:... my275PP$my question276NNquestion was277VBDbe within278INwithin Illinois279NPIllinois Brick280NPBrick ,281,, is282VBZbe there283RBthere in284INin this285DTthis case286NNcase anyone287NNanyone who288WPwho would289MDwould qualify290VVqualify as291INas a292DTa first293JJfirst buyer294NNbuyer with295INwith standing296VVGstand to297TOto sue298VVsue Apple299NPApple ?300SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]301LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] The302DTthe developers303NNSdeveloper ,304,, yes305UHyes .306SENT. Without307INwithout a308DTa doubt309NNdoubt ,310,, the311DTthe developers312NNSdeveloper are313VBPbe the314DTthe ones315NNSone who316WPwho ,317,, in318INin the319DTthe first320JJfirst instance321NNinstance ,322,, pay323VVpay the324DTthe 30325CD@card@ percent326NNpercent commission327NNcommission .328SENT. I329PPI think330VVPthink it331PPit 's332VBZbe ...333:... it334PPit is335VBZbe ...336:... it337PPit is338VBZbe important339JJimportant to340TOto root341VVroot the342DTthe analysis343NNanalysis in344INin the345DTthe common346JJcommon ground347NNground ,348,, which349WDTwhich has350VHZhave been351VBNbe conceded352VVNconcede ,353,, that354IN/thatthat the355DTthe only356JJonly damages357NNSdamage theory358NNtheory is359VBZbe based360VVNbase upon361INupon that362DTthat 30363CD@card@ percent364NNpercent commission365NNcommission .366SENT. That367DTthat is368VBZbe charged369VVNcharge by370INby contract371NNcontract between372INbetween Apple373NPApple and374CCand the375DTthe developers376NNSdeveloper .377SENT. And378CCand it379PPit is380VBZbe deducted381VVNdeduct from382INfrom whatever383JJwhatever price384NNprice that385IN/thatthat the386DTthe developer387NNdeveloper chooses388VVZchoose to389TOto ...390:... to391TOto set392VVset ,393,, subject394JJsubject to395TOto only396RBonly the397DTthe minimal398JJminimal restriction399NNrestriction ...400:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]401LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I402PPI 'm403VBPbe sorry404JJsorry ,405,, the406DTthe ...407:... the408DTthe first409JJfirst sale410NNsale is411VBZbe from412INfrom Apple413NPApple to414TOto the415DTthe customer416NNcustomer .417SENT. It418PPit 's419VBZbe the420DTthe customer421NNcustomer who422WPwho pays423VVZpay the424DTthe 30425CD@card@ percent426NNpercent .427SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]428LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] But429CCbut there430EXthere has431VHZhave always432RBalways been433VBNbe a434DTa ...435:... a436DTa transaction437NNtransaction between438INbetween Apple439NPApple and440CCand the441DTthe developer442NNdeveloper before443INbefore that444DTthat ,445,, which446WDTwhich has447VHZhave the448DTthe pricing449NNpricing decision450NNdecision of451INof what452WPwhat the453DTthe developer454NNdeveloper is455VBZbe going456VVGgo to457TOto do458VVdo on459INon account460NNaccount of461INof the462DTthe 30463CD@card@ percent464NNpercent commission465NNcommission .466SENT. There467EXthere is468VBZbe never469RBnever ...470:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]471LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Could472MDcould I473PPI ask474VVask you475PPyou something476NNsomething ...477:... [MR. D.M. WALL]478LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Sure479NPSure .480SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]481LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...482:... more483JJRmore generally484RBgenerally about485INabout Illinois486NPIllinois Brick487NPBrick ?488SENT? That489DTthat was490VBDbe a491DTa case492NNcase of493INof a494DTa vertical495JJvertical monopoly496NNmonopoly :497:: A498DTa concrete499JJconcrete block500NNblock person501NNperson ,502,, manufacturer503NNmanufacturer ,504,, monopolizes505VVZmonopolize the506DTthe next507JJnext intermediate508JJintermediate market509NNmarket who510WPwho then511RBthen sells512VVZsell to513TOto a514DTa customer515NNcustomer .516SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]517LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Yes518NPYes .519SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]520LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All521DTall right522NNright .523SENT. This524DTthis is525VBZbe not526RBnot quite527RBquite like528INlike that529DTthat .530SENT. This531DTthis is532VBZbe dramatically533RBdramatically different534JJdifferent .535SENT. This536DTthis is537VBZbe a538DTa closed539JJclosed loop540NNloop .541SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]542LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] It543PPit is544VBZbe a545DTa closed546JJclosed loop547NNloop ,548,, but549CCbut in550INin terms551NNSterm of552INof the553DTthe injury554NNinjury theory555NNtheory ,556,, which557WDTwhich is558VBZbe what559WPwhat is560VBZbe at561INat issue562NNissue in563INin ...564:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]565LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] They566PPthey 're567VBPbe not568RBnot claiming569VVGclaim the570DTthe 30571CD@card@ percent572NNpercent is573VBZbe their574PP$their injury575NNinjury .576SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]577LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] No578NPNo .579SENT. They're580NPThey're ...581:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]582LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] They're583NPThey're ...584:... they585PPthey 're586VBPbe claiming587VVGclaim their588PP$their injury589NNinjury is590VBZbe the591DTthe suppression592NNsuppression of593INof ...594:... of595INof a596DTa cheaper597JJRcheap price598NNprice ,599,, does600VVZdo n't601RBn't have602VHhave to603TOto be604VBbe percent605NNpercent .606SENT. They607PPthey 're608VBPbe not609RBnot seeking610VVGseek 30611CD@card@ percent612NNpercent of613INof their614PP$their sales615NNSsale .616SENT. They617PPthey have618VHPhave to619TOto go620VVgo out621RPout and622CCand prove623VVprove at624INat the625DTthe next626JJnext step627NNstep how628WRBhow ,629,, without630INwithout this631DTthis monopoly632NNmonopoly ,633,, they634PPthey would635MDwould have636VHhave paid637VVNpay less638RBRless .639SENT. It640PPit could641MDcould be642VBbe as643RBas little644JJlittle as645INas a646DTa ...647:... a648DTa penny649NNpenny or650CCor nothing651NNnothing or652CCor it653PPit could654MDcould be655VBbe something656NNsomething more657RBRmore .658SENT. But659CCbut the660DTthe point661NNpoint is662VBZbe that663IN/thatthat this664DTthis closed665JJclosed loop666NNloop with667INwith Apple668NPApple as669INas its670PP$its spoke671NNspoke ,672,, they673PPthey are674VBPbe the675DTthe first676JJfirst purchaser677NNpurchaser of678INof that679DTthat 30680CD@card@ percent681NNpercent markup682NNmarkup .683SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]684LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] No685NPNo ,686,, they687PPthey are688VBPbe not689RBnot .690SENT. The691DTthe ...692:... the693DTthe first694JJfirst purchaser695NNpurchaser is696VBZbe clearly697RBclearly the698DTthe app699NPApp developer700NNdeveloper ,701,, who702WPwho ,703,, by704INby contract705NNcontract ,706,, agrees707VVZagree that708IN/thatthat every709DTevery time710NNtime it711PPit puts712VVZput a713DTa positive714JJpositive price715NNprice on716INon an717DTan app718NPApp ,719,, it720PPit will721MDwill allow722VVallow Apple723NPApple to724TOto ...725:... to726TOto take727VVtake 30728CD@card@ percent729NNpercent of730INof it731PPit .732SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]733LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Apple734NPApple took735VVDtake percent736NNpercent from737INfrom the738DTthe customer739NNcustomer ...740:... [MR. D.M. WALL]741LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] And742CCand the743DTthe damages744NNSdamage theory745NNtheory ...746:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]747LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...748:... not749RBnot from750INfrom the751DTthe developer752NNdeveloper .753SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]754LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Apple755NPApple collects756VVZcollect the757DTthe ...758:... the759DTthe funds760NNSfund ,761,, but762CCbut even763RBeven the764DTthe Ninth765JJninth Circuit766NNcircuit here767RBhere agreed768VVDagree that769DTthat ...770:... that771IN/thatthat the772DTthe process773NNprocess ...774:... the775DTthe payment776NNpayment flow777NNflow is778VBZbe immaterial779JJimmaterial to780TOto the781DTthe Illinois782NPIllinois Brick783NPBrick issue784NNissue .785SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]786LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Certainly787RBcertainly ,788,, I789PPI would790MDwould n't791RBn't think792VVthink that793WDTthat 's794VBZbe true795JJtrue ,796,, even797RBeven if798INif they799PPthey concluded800VVDconclude it801PPit .802SENT. And803CCand in804INin a805DTa simple806JJsimple theory807NNtheory ,808,, I809PPI would810MDwould have811VHhave thought812VVNthink it813PPit would814MDwould have815VHhave been816VBNbe in817RBin antitrust818JJantitrust for819INfor at820INat least821JJSleast 100822CD@card@ years823NNSyear .824SENT. What825WPWhat you826PPyou do827VVPdo is828VBZbe you829PPyou look830VVPlook to831TOto see832VVsee who833WPwho you834PPyou claim835VVPclaim is836VBZbe the837DTthe monopolist838NNmonopolist .839SENT. Who840WPwho do841VVPdo they842PPthey claim843VVPclaim is844VBZbe the845DTthe monopolist846NNmonopolist ?847SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]848LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Apple849NPApple .850SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]851LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Apple852NPApple .853SENT. And854CCand if855INif you856PPyou pay857VVPpay ...858:... if859INif that860WDTthat 's861VBZbe true862JJtrue ,863,, they864PPthey can865MDcan raise866VVraise prices867NNSprice to868TOto some869DTsome people870NNSpeople ,871,, lower872VVlower them873PPthem to874TOto others875NNSother ,876,, their877PP$their suppliers878NNSsupplier .879SENT. And880CCand if881INif you882PPyou were883VBDbe injured884VVNinjure because885INbecause you886PPyou paid887VVDpay them888PPthem more889RBRmore ,890,, the891DTthe monopolist892NNmonopolist ,893,, you894PPyou can895MDcan collect896VVcollect damages897NNSdamage .898SENT. And899CCand if900INif you901PPyou 're902VBPbe injured903VVNinjure because904INbecause they905PPthey forced906VVDforce your907PP$your price908NNprice down909RBdown ,910,, you911PPyou 're912VBPbe a913DTa supplier914NNsupplier ,915,, you916PPyou can917MDcan collect918VVcollect damages919NNSdamage .920SENT. End921NNend of922INof theory923NNtheory .924SENT. I925PPI do926VVPdo n't927RBn't see928VVsee anything929NNanything in930INin Illinois931NPIllinois Brick932NPBrick that933IN/thatthat conflicts934NNSconflict with935INwith that936DTthat .937SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]938LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Everything939NNEverything in940INin Illinois941NPIllinois Brick942NPBrick ...943:... [JUSTICE BREYER]944LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All945DTall right946NNright .947SENT. What948WPWhat is949VBZbe that950RBthat ?951SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]952LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] ...953:... conflicts954NNSconflict with955INwith that956DTthat .957SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]958LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah959NPYeah .960SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]961LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] The962NPThe ...963:... the964DTthe emphasis965NNemphasis in966INin all967DTall three968CDthree of969INof this970DTthis Court971NPCourt 's972POS's decision973NNdecision on974INon both975DTboth pass-on976NNpass-on defenses977NNSdefense and978CCand damages979NNSdamage theories980NNStheory ,981,, that982WDTthat 's983VBZbe what984WPwhat the985DTthe doctrine986NNdoctrine disallows987VVZdisallow .988SENT. It989PPit ...990:... it991PPit says992VVZsay that993DTthat ...994:... [JUSTICE BREYER]995LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah996UHYeah ,997,, it998PPit says999VVZsay that1000IN/thatthat if1001INif ...1002:... I1003PPI do1004VVPdo n't1005RBn't mean1006VVmean to1007TOto interrupt1008VVinterrupt you1009PPyou ,1010,, but1011CCbut I1012PPI do1013VVPdo n't1014RBn't want1015VVwant to1016TOto ...1017:... you1018PPyou to1019TOto miss1020VVmiss the1021DTthe point1022NNpoint I1023PPI 'm1024VBPbe making1025VVGmake .1026SENT. If1027INif Joe1028NPJoe Smith1029NPSmith buys1030VVZbuy from1031INfrom Bill1032NPBill ,1033,, who1034WPwho bought1035VVDbuy from1036INfrom the1037DTthe monopolist1038NNmonopolist ,1039,, then1040RBthen we1041PPwe have1042VHPhave something1043NNsomething indirect1044JJindirect .1045SENT. But1046CCbut ,1047,, if1048INif Joe1049NPJoe Smith1050NPSmith bought1051VVDbuy from1052INfrom the1053DTthe monopolist1054NNmonopolist ,1055,, it1056PPit is1057VBZbe direct1058JJdirect .1059SENT. That1060DTthat 's1061VBZbe a1062DTa simple1063JJsimple theory1064NNtheory .1065SENT. Now1066RBnow I1067PPI can1068MDcan 't1069RB't find1070VVfind in1071INin reason1072NNreason or1073CCor in1074INin case1075NNcase law1076NNlaw or1077CCor in1078INin anything1079NNanything I1080PPI 've1081VHPhave ever1082RBever learned1083VVNlearn in1084INin antitrust1085JJantitrust anything1086NNanything that1087WDTthat would1088MDwould conflict1089VVconflict with1090INwith that1091DTthat .1092SENT. And1093CCand what1094WPwhat I1095PPI want1096VVPwant you1097PPyou is1098VBZbe to1099TOto tell1100VVtell me1101PPme what1102WPwhat ?1103SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]1104LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] What1105WPWhat conflicts1106VVZconflict with1107INwith that1108DTthat in1109INin this1110DTthis case1111NNcase is1112VBZbe that1113IN/thatthat the1114DTthe alleged1115JJalleged monopolization1116NNmonopolization ,1117,, which1118WDTwhich is1119VBZbe over1120INover the1121DTthe distribution1122NNdistribution function1123NNfunction ,1124,, allegedly1125RBallegedly first1126JJfirst manifests1127NNSmanifest in1128INin a1129DTa 301130CD@card@ percent1131NNpercent commission1132NNcommission .1133SENT. Consumers1134NNSconsumer do1135VVPdo not1136RBnot pay1137VVpay the1138DTthe percent1139NNpercent commission1140NNcommission .1141SENT. There1142EXthere was1143VBDbe an1144DTan effort1145NNeffort in1146INin the1147DTthe ...1148:... in1149INin the1150DTthe district1151NNdistrict court1152NNcourt to1153TOto try1154VVtry to1155TOto argue1156VVargue that1157DTthat ...1158:... that1159IN/thatthat Apple1160NPApple added1161VVDadd that1162IN/thatthat ,1163,, but1164CCbut that1165WDTthat was1166VBDbe abandoned1167VVNabandon .1168SENT. So1169RBso what1170WPwhat we1171PPwe have1172VHPhave here1173RBhere instead1174RBinstead is1175VBZbe a1176DTa damage1177NNdamage theory1178NNtheory that1179WDTthat runs1180VVZrun through1181INthrough the1182DTthe independent1183JJindependent pricing1184NNpricing decisions1185NNSdecision of1186INof the1187DTthe app1188NPApp developers1189NNSdeveloper .1190SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1191LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Does1192VVZdo your1193PP$your answer1194NNanswer to1195TOto Justice1196NPJustice Breyer1197NPBreyer depend1198VVPdepend on1199INon what1200WPwhat you1201PPyou said1202VVDsay ,1203,, that1204IN/thatthat the1205DTthe alleged1206JJalleged monopolization1207NNmonopolization is1208VBZbe in1209INin the1210DTthe distribution1211NNdistribution function1212NNfunction ?1213SENT? Because1214INbecause I1215PPI understood1216VVDunderstand the1217DTthe ...1218:... the1219DTthe Respondents1220NNSrespondent now1221RBnow to1222TOto be1223VBbe saying1224VVGsay ,1225,, no1226UHno ,1227,, that1228WDTthat 's1229VBZbe wrong1230JJwrong ;1231:; the1232DTthe alleged1233JJalleged monopolization1234NNmonopolization is1235VBZbe in1236INin the1237DTthe apps1238NNSapps themselves1239PPthemselves .1240SENT. In1241INin other1242JJother words1243NNSword ,1244,, the1245DTthe consumer1246NNconsumer says1247VVZsay you1248PPyou have1249VHhave a1250DTa monopoly1251NNmonopoly on1252INon apps1253NNSapps .1254SENT. You1255PPyou might1256MDmight also1257RBalso have1258VHhave a1259DTa monopoly1260NNmonopoly on1261INon the1262DTthe distribution1263NNdistribution function1264NNfunction ,1265,, which1266WDTwhich the1267DTthe app1268NPApp developers1269NNSdeveloper have1270VHPhave to1271TOto live1272VVlive with1273INwith ,1274,, but1275CCbut you1276PPyou have1277VHPhave a1278DTa monopoly1279NNmonopoly on1280INon apps1281NNSapps ,1282,, which1283WDTwhich the1284DTthe consumers1285NNSconsumer have1286VHPhave to1287TOto live1288VVlive with1289INwith .1290SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]1291LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] In1292INin ...1293:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1294LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So1295RBso ,1296,, in1297INin responding1298VVGrespond to1299TOto Justice1300NPJustice Breyer1301NPBreyer ,1302,, you1303PPyou said1304VVDsay :1305:: Well1306UHwell ,1307,, it1308PPit 's1309VBZbe because1310INbecause the1311DTthe alleged1312JJalleged monopoly1313NNmonopoly is1314VBZbe the1315DTthe distribution1316NNdistribution function1317NNfunction .1318SENT. But1319CCbut I1320PPI do1321VVPdo n't1322RBn't think1323VVthink that1324IN/thatthat that1325DTthat 's1326VBZbe correct1327JJcorrect .1328SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]1329LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Well1330UHWell ,1331,, two1332CDtwo points1333NNSpoint ,1334,, Justice1335NPJustice Kagan1336NPKagan .1337SENT. First1338JJfirst of1339INof all1340DTall ,1341,, it1342PPit is1343VBZbe correct1344JJcorrect .1345SENT. The1346DTthe ...1347:... the1348DTthe complaint1349NNcomplaint repeatedly1350RBrepeatedly alleges1351VVZallege at1352INat paragraphs1353NNSparagraph 31354CD3 ,1355,, 81356CD8 ,1357,, and1358CCand 531359CD@card@ that1360WDTthat this1361DTthis is1362VBZbe a1363DTa case1364NNcase about1365RBabout ...1366:... about1367INabout a1368DTa distribution1369NNdistribution market1370NNmarket .1371SENT. It1372PPit has1373VHZhave always1374RBalways been1375VBNbe a1376DTa case1377NNcase about1378INabout a1379DTa distribution1380NNdistribution market1381NNmarket .1382SENT. And1383CCand it1384PPit necessarily1385RBnecessarily is1386VBZbe because1387INbecause there1388EXthere is1389VBZbe no1390DTno good-faith1391NNgood-faith allegation1392NNallegation that1393WDTthat ...1394:... that1395IN/thatthat Apple1396NPApple actually1397RBactually monopolizes1398VVZmonopolize the1399DTthe apps1400NNSapps as1401INas software1402NNsoftware .1403SENT. It1404PPit is1405VBZbe ...1406:... it1407PPit is1408VBZbe simply1409RBsimply the1410DTthe pipeline1411NNpipeline ,1412,, the1413DTthe sale1414NNsale of1415INof the1416DTthe apps1417NNSapps ,1418,, which1419WDTwhich is1420VBZbe ...1421:... which1422WDTwhich is1423VBZbe alternatively1424RBalternatively described1425VVNdescribe in1426INin this1427DTthis case1428NNcase as1429INas either1430DTeither distribution1431NNdistribution or1432CCor as1433INas the1434DTthe so-called1435JJso-called aftermarket1436NNaftermarket ,1437,, which1438WDTwhich is1439VBZbe simply1440RBsimply limiting1441VVGlimit that1442IN/thatthat to1443TOto iOS1444NNSiOS apps1445NNSapps instead1446RBinstead of1447INof the1448DTthe 801449CD@card@ percent1450NNpercent of1451INof the1452DTthe apps1453NNSapps ...1454:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1455LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You1456PPyou know1457VVPknow ,1458,, there1459EXthere are1460VBPbe an1461DTan awful1462JJawful lot1463NNlot of1464INof words1465NNSword in1466INin this1467DTthis case1468NNcase that1469IN/thatthat I1470PPI tend1471VVPtend to1472TOto have1473VHhave trouble1474NNtrouble understanding1475NNunderstanding .1476SENT. One1477PPone is1478VBZbe two-sided1479JJtwo-sided market1480NNmarket .1481SENT. Another1482DTanother is1483VBZbe a1484DTa lot1485NNlot that1486IN/thatthat you1487PPyou used1488VVDuse .1489SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]1490LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Uh-huh1491NPUh-huh .1492SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1493LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So1494INso I1495PPI go1496VVPgo by1497INby simple1498JJsimple analogy1499NNanalogy .1500SENT. If1501INif Bill1502NPBill buys1503VVZbuy from1504INfrom the1505DTthe monopolist1506NNmonopolist ,1507,, he1508PPhe is1509VBZbe a1510DTa direct1511JJdirect purchaser1512NNpurchaser .1513SENT. If1514INif Bill1515NPBill buys1516VVZbuy from1517INfrom Sam1518NPSam ,1519,, who1520WPwho buys1521VVZbuy from1522INfrom the1523DTthe monopolist1524NNmonopolist ,1525,, he1526PPhe is1527VBZbe an1528DTan indirect1529JJindirect purchaser1530NNpurchaser .1531SENT. Anyone1532NNAnyone can1533MDcan understand1534VVunderstand that1535DTthat .1536SENT. And1537CCand when1538WRBwhen I1539PPI get1540VVPget into1541INinto what1542WPwhat I1543PPI think1544VVPthink of1545INof as1546INas jargon1547NNjargon ,1548,, I1549PPI begin1550VVPbegin to1551TOto think1552VVthink :1553:: Suppose1554VVPsuppose I1555PPI were1556VBDbe advising1557VVGadvise United1558NPUnited Fruit1559NPFruit Company1560NPCompany .1561SENT. I1562PPI have1563VHPhave a1564DTa great1565JJgreat idea1566NNidea .1567SENT. You1568PPyou won1569MDwill 't1570RB't have1571VHPhave to1572TOto torpedo1573VVtorpedo the1574DTthe boats1575NNSboat of1576INof your1577PP$your competitors1578NNScompetitor anymore1579RBanymore .1580SENT. Here1581RBhere 's1582VBZbe what1583WPwhat you1584PPyou do1585VVPdo :1586:: What1587WPWhat you1588PPyou do1589VVPdo is1590VBZbe you1591PPyou buy1592VVPbuy from1593INfrom the1594DTthe farmers1595NNSfarmer and1596CCand you1597PPyou tell1598VVPtell the1599DTthe farmers1600NNSfarmer what1601WPwhat you1602PPyou will1603MDwill pay1604VVpay the1605DTthe banana1606NNbanana farmers1607NNSfarmer is1608VBZbe a1609DTa very1610RBvery low1611JJlow price1612NNprice plus1613CCplus 301614CD@card@ percent1615NNpercent commission1616NNcommission .1617SENT. And1618CCand then1619RBthen what1620WPwhat you1621PPyou do1622VVPdo is1623VBZbe ,1624,, when1625WRBwhen you1626PPyou sell1627VVPsell to1628TOto banana1629NNbanana consumers1630NNSconsumer throughout1631INthroughout the1632DTthe world1633NNworld ,1634,, you1635PPyou charge1636VVPcharge them1637PPthem that1638IN/thatthat 301639CD@card@ percent1640NNpercent commission1641NNcommission ,1642,, which1643WDTwhich they1644PPthey say1645VVPsay is1646VBZbe a1647DTa higher1648JJRhigh price1649NNprice .1650SENT. And1651CCand if1652INif you1653PPyou ,1654,, United1655NPUnited Fruit1656NPFruit ,1657,, did1658VVDdo not1659RBnot become1660VVbecome a1661DTa monopolist1662NNmonopolist .1663SENT. Now1664RBnow I1665PPI think1666VVPthink I1667PPI 'm1668VBPbe advising1669VVGadvise Jay1670NPJay Rockefeller1671NPRockefeller ,1672,, John1673NPJohn Rockefeller1674NPRockefeller ,1675,, and1676CCand I1677PPI give1678VVPgive him1679PPhim the1680DTthe same1681JJsame advice1682NNadvice .1683SENT. And1684CCand I1685PPI give1686VVPgive the1687DTthe same1688JJsame advice1689NNadvice to1690TOto United1691NPUnited Shoe1692NPShoe ,1693,, which1694WDTwhich happened1695VVDhappen to1696TOto be1697VBbe a1698DTa distribution1699NNdistribution company1700NNcompany .1701SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]1702LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] But1703CCbut ...1704:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1705LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And1706CCand we1707PPwe thereby1708RBthereby have1709VHPhave ...1710:... well1711UHwell ,1712,, you1713PPyou see1714VVPsee the1715DTthe point1716NNpoint .1717SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]1718LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] But1719CCbut the1720DTthe difference1721NNdifference here1722RBhere is1723VBZbe ...1724:... is1725VBZbe that1726IN/thatthat there1727RBthere ...1728:... there1729EXthere is1730VBZbe ...1731:... there1732EXthere is1733VBZbe no1734DTno third-party1735JJthird-party intermediary1736NNintermediary that1737WDTthat is1738VBZbe setting1739VVGset the1740DTthe price1741NNprice and1742CCand exercising1743VVGexercise its1744PP$its independent1745JJindependent determination1746NNdetermination as1747INas to1748TOto whether1749INwhether any1750DTany or1751CCor all1752DTall of1753INof the1754DTthe initial1755JJinitial over-charge1756NNover-charge ,1757,, which1758WDTwhich is1759VBZbe some1760DTsome part1761NNpart or1762CCor all1763DTall of1764INof the1765DTthe commission1766NNcommission ,1767,, is1768VBZbe going1769VVGgo to1770TOto manifest1771VVmanifest itself1772PPitself in1773INin the1774DTthe app1775NPApp 's1776POS's price1777NNprice .1778SENT. And1779CCand that1780DTthat 's1781VBZbe why1782WRBwhy I1783PPI started1784VVDstart with1785INwith ...1786:... with1787INwith ...1788:... with1789INwith ...1790:... the1791DTthe simple1792NNsimple I1793PPI would1794MDwould ...1795:... would1796MDwould ...1797:... would1798MDwould say1799VVsay ...1800:... you1801PPyou know1802VVPknow ,1803,, the1804DTthe hypothetical1805JJhypothetical of1806INof imagine1807VVimagine the1808DTthe price1809NNprice today1810NNtoday is1811VBZbe the1812DTthe competitive1813JJcompetitive price1814NNprice ,1815,, the1816DTthe 301817CD@card@ percent1818NNpercent is1819VBZbe the1820DTthe competitive1821JJcompetitive price1822NNprice ,1823,, and1824CCand it1825PPit goes1826VVZgo up1827RPup by1828INby 101829CD@card@ points1830NNSpoint tomorrow1831NNtomorrow .1832SENT. No1833DTno consumer1834NNconsumer is1835VBZbe injured1836VVNinjure unless1837INunless the1838DTthe apps1839NNSapps '1840POS' prices1841NNSprice change1842NNchange .1843SENT. The1844DTthe apps1845NNSapps '1846POS' prices1847NNSprice have1848VHPhave to1849TOto change1850VVchange .1851SENT. And1852CCand if1853INif they1854PPthey do1855VVPdo n't1856RBn't ...1857:... and1858CCand they1859PPthey only1860RBonly change1861VVPchange by1862INby virtue1863NNvirtue of1864INof a1865DTa decision1866NNdecision which1867WDTwhich implicates1868VVZimplicate everything1869NNeverything this1870DTthis Court1871NPCourt talked1872VVDtalk about1873RBabout in1874INin Hanover1875NPHanover Shoe1876NPShoe ,1877,, in1878INin Illinois1879NPIllinois Brick1880NPBrick ,1881,, and1882CCand in1883INin UtiliCorp1884NPUtiliCorp .1885SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1886LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well1887UHWell ,1888,, Mr1889NPMr .1890SENT. Wall1891NPWall ,1892,, I1893PPI think1894VVPthink you1895PPyou 're1896VBPbe avoiding1897VVGavoid the1898DTthe question1899NNquestion a1900DTa bit1901NNbit because1902INbecause ,1903,, I1904PPI mean1905VVPmean ,1906,, the1907DTthe questions1908NNSquestion that1909WDTthat are1910VBPbe being1911VBGbe put1912VVNput to1913TOto you1914PPyou by1915INby my1916PP$my colleagues1917NNScolleague are1918VBPbe really1919RBreally ,1920,, what1921WPwhat was1922VBDbe Illinois1923NPIllinois Brick1924NPBrick about1925RBabout ?1926SENT? Was1927VBDbe it1928PPit about1929INabout a1930DTa vertical1931JJvertical supply1932NNsupply chain1933NNchain or1934CCor ,1935,, instead1936RBinstead ,1937,, was1938VBDbe it1939PPit about1940INabout a1941DTa pass-through1942JJpass-through theory1943NNtheory ?1944SENT? Now1945RBnow ,1946,, in1947INin the1948DTthe facts1949NNSfact of1950INof Illinois1951NPIllinois Brick1952NPBrick and1953CCand ,1954,, indeed1955RBindeed ,1956,, in1957INin the1958DTthe facts1959NNSfact of1960INof all1961PDTall the1962DTthe Illinois1963NPIllinois Brick1964NPBrick cases1965NNScase that1966IN/thatthat we1967PPwe 've1968VHPhave discussed1969VVNdiscuss ,1970,, you1971PPyou had1972VHDhave both1973DTboth .1974SENT. So1975RBso you1976PPyou did1977VVDdo n't1978RBn't have1979VHhave to1980TOto separate1981VVseparate the1982DTthe two1983CDtwo .1984SENT. And1985CCand now1986RBnow ,1987,, here1988RBhere ,1989,, you1990PPyou do1991VVPdo n't1992RBn't have1993VHhave both1994DTboth ,1995,, because1996INbecause this1997DTthis is1998VBZbe not1999RBnot a2000DTa vertical2001JJvertical supply2002NNsupply chain2003NNchain ,2004,, but2005CCbut there2006EXthere still2007RBstill is2008VBZbe a2009DTa pass-through2010JJpass-through mechanism2011NNmechanism .2012SENT. So2013RBso then2014RBthen the2015DTthe question2016NNquestion is2017VBZbe ,2018,, does2019VVZdo Illinois2020NPIllinois Brick2021NPBrick apply2022VVapply to2023TOto that2024DTthat or2025CCor not2026RBnot ?2027SENT? And2028CCand I2029PPI think2030VVPthink what2031WPwhat Justice2032NPJustice Breyer2033NPBreyer was2034VBDbe suggesting2035VVGsuggest to2036TOto you2037PPyou ,2038,, that2039IN/thatthat as2040RBas long2041RBlong as2042INas it2043PPit 's2044VBZbe not2045RBnot that2046DTthat vertical2047JJvertical supply2048NNsupply chain2049NNchain where2050WRBwhere the2051DTthe person2052NNperson is2053VBZbe not2054RBnot buying2055VVGbuy from2056INfrom the2057DTthe monopolist2058NNmonopolist itself2059PPitself ,2060,, here2061RBhere ,2062,, the2063DTthe person2064NNperson is2065VBZbe transacting2066VVGtransact with2067INwith the2068DTthe monopolist2069NNmonopolist itself2070PPitself ,2071,, that2072IN/thatthat that2073DTthat 's2074VBZbe what2075WPwhat separates2076VVZseparate this2077DTthis case2078NNcase from2079INfrom Illinois2080NPIllinois Brick2081NPBrick and2082CCand makes2083VVZmake it2084PPit entirely2085RBentirely different2086JJdifferent ,2087,, notwithstanding2088INnotwithstanding that2089WDTthat there2090EXthere 's2091VBZbe some2092DTsome kind2093NNkind of2094INof pass-through2095JJpass-through mechanism2096NNmechanism involved2097VVNinvolve .2098SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]2099LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] I2100PPI completely2101RBcompletely agree2102VVPagree with2103INwith you2104PPyou that2105IN/thatthat the2106DTthe key2107NNkey to2108TOto this2109DTthis is2110VBZbe deciding2111VVGdecide what2112WPwhat Illinois2113NPIllinois Brick2114NPBrick was2115VBDbe about2116RBabout .2117SENT. Was2118VBDbe it2119PPit simply2120RBsimply a2121DTa formalistic2122JJformalistic case2123NNcase about2124INabout vertical2125JJvertical chains2126NNSchain ,2127,, or2128CCor was2129VBDbe it2130PPit about2131RBabout pass-through2132JJpass-through ?2133SENT? And2134CCand in2135INin answering2136VVGanswer that2137DTthat question2138NNquestion ,2139,, I2140PPI would2141MDwould begin2142VVbegin with2143INwith ,2144,, first2145JJfirst of2146INof all2147DTall ,2148,, with2149INwith Hanover2150NPHanover Shoe2151NPShoe ,2152,, which2153WDTwhich is2154VBZbe about2155RBabout a2156DTa pass-on2157NNpass-on defense2158NNdefense and2159CCand about2160RBabout the2161DTthe ...2162:... the2163DTthe difficulties2164NNSdifficulty in2165INin ...2166:... in2167INin the2168DTthe ...2169:... the2170DTthe ...2171:... the2172DTthe potential2173JJpotential complication2174NNcomplication of2175INof antitrust2176JJantitrust litigation2177NNlitigation through2178INthrough pass-on2179NNpass-on defense2180NNdefense ,2181,, and2182CCand then2183RBthen the2184DTthe framing2185NNframing of2186INof the2187DTthe question2188NNquestion in2189INin Illinois2190NPIllinois Brick2191NPBrick by2192INby this2193DTthis Court2194NPCourt which2195WDTwhich said2196VVDsay ,2197,, having2198VHGhave already2199RBalready found2200VVNfind that2201IN/thatthat we2202PPwe will2203MDwill not2204RBnot allow2205VVallow a2206DTa pass-on2207NNpass-on defense2208NNdefense ,2209,, we2210PPwe are2211VBPbe now2212RBnow confronted2213VVNconfront with2214INwith the2215DTthe question2216NNquestion to2217TOto whether2218CCwhether allow2219VVallow pass-on2220NNpass-on to2221TOto be2222VBbe used2223VVNuse offensively2224RBoffensively .2225SENT. It2226PPit was2227VBDbe 1002228CD@card@ percent2229NNpercent about2230INabout pass-on2231NNpass-on .2232SENT. The2233DTthe vertical2234JJvertical chain2235NNchain was2236VBDbe the2237DTthe factual2238JJfactual setting2239NNsetting of2240INof the2241DTthe case2242NNcase ,2243,, and2244CCand ,2245,, indeed2246RBindeed ,2247,, Respondents2248NNSrespondent '2249POS' argument2250NNargument would2251MDwould ...2252:... would2253MDwould have2254VHhave this2255DTthis Court2256NPCourt believe2257VVPbelieve that2258IN/thatthat the2259DTthe factual2260JJfactual setting2261NNsetting is2262VBZbe the2263DTthe sum2264NNsum and2265CCand substance2266NNsubstance of2267INof the2268DTthe Court2269NPCourt 's2270POS's reasoning2271NNreasoning .2272SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2273LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Mr2274NPMr .2275SENT. Wall2276NPWall ,2277,, could2278MDcould I2279PPI ask2280VVask you2281PPyou about2282INabout what2283WPwhat troubles2284VVZtrouble me2285PPme about2286INabout your2287PP$your position2288NNposition ,2289,, and2290CCand ...2291:... and2292CCand it2293PPit is2294VBZbe this2295DTthis :2296:: Illinois2297NPIllinois Brick2298NPBrick was2299VBDbe not2300RBnot about2301RBabout economic2302JJeconomic theory2303NNtheory .2304SENT. It2305PPit was2306VBDbe about2307RBabout the2308DTthe court's2309NNScourt's ...2310:... the2311DTthe court's2312NNScourt's ...2313:... the2314DTthe basis2315NNbasis for2316INfor the2317DTthe decision2318NNdecision was2319VBDbe not2320RBnot economic2321JJeconomic theory2322NNtheory ,2323,, as2324INas I2325PPI read2326VVPread the2327DTthe case2328NNcase .2329SENT. It2330PPit 's2331VBZbe the2332DTthe court2333NNcourt 's2334POS's calculation2335NNcalculation of2336INof what2337WPwhat makes2338VVZmake for2339INfor an2340DTan effective2341JJeffective and2342CCand efficient2343JJefficient litigation2344NNlitigation scheme2345NNscheme .2346SENT. And2347CCand maybe2348RBmaybe your2349PP$your answer2350NNanswer to2351TOto this2352DTthis question2353NNquestion is2354VBZbe that2355IN/thatthat the2356DTthe validity2357NNvalidity of2358INof Illinois2359NPIllinois Brick2360NPBrick is2361VBZbe not2362RBnot before2363INbefore us2364PPus .2365SENT. But2366CCbut I2367PPI really2368RBreally wonder2369VVPwonder whether2370INwhether ,2371,, in2372INin light2373NNlight of2374INof what2375WPwhat has2376VHZhave happened2377VVNhappen since2378INsince then2379RBthen ,2380,, the2381DTthe court2382NNcourt 's2383POS's evaluation2384NNevaluation stands2385VVZstand up2386RPup .2387SENT. Take2388VVtake the2389DTthe third2390JJthird point2391NNpoint that2392IN/thatthat it2393PPit makes2394VVZmake about2395RBabout that2396IN/thatthat the2397DTthe direct2398JJdirect ...2399:... the2400DTthe so-called2401JJso-called direct2402JJdirect purchasers2403NNSpurchaser are2404VBPbe the2405DTthe most2406RBSmost efficient2407JJefficient and2408CCand most2409RBSmost ...2410:... in2411INin the2412DTthe best2413JJSgood position2414NNposition to2415TOto ...2416:... to2417TOto sue2418VVsue .2419SENT. If2420INif we2421PPwe look2422VVPlook at2423INat this2424DTthis case2425NNcase ,2426,, how2427WRBhow many2428JJmany app2429NPApp developers2430NNSdeveloper are2431VBPbe there2432RBthere whose2433WP$whose apps2434NNSapps are2435VBPbe sold2436VVNsell at2437INat the2438DTthe Apple2439NPApple store2440NNstore ?2441SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]2442LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Tens2443NNSten of2444INof thousands2445NNSthousand .2446SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2447LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah2448NPYeah .2449SENT. Has2450VHZhave any2451DTany one2452CDone of2453INof them2454PPthem ever2455RBever sued2456VVDsue ?2457SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]2458LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] None2459NNnone have2460VHPhave ever2461RBever sued2462VVNsue .2463SENT. There2464EXthere have2465VHPhave been2466VBNbe ...2467:... there2468EXthere have2469VHPhave been2470VBNbe plenty2471NNplenty of2472INof disputes2473NNSdispute ,2474,, but2475CCbut none2476NNnone has2477VHZhave ever2478RBever gone2479VVNgo to2480TOto litigation2481NNlitigation .2482SENT. For2483INfor that2484DTthat matter2485NNmatter ,2486,, no2487DTno state2488NNstate or2489CCor federal2490JJfederal antitrust2491JJantitrust agency2492NNagency has2493VHZhave ever2494RBever sued2495VVNsue either2496RBeither .2497SENT. We2498PPwe do2499VVPdo not2500RBnot take2501VVtake that2502DTthat ...2503:... we2504PPwe do2505VVPdo not2506RBnot take2507VVtake the2508DTthe ...2509:... the2510DTthe absence2511NNabsence of2512INof litigation2513NNlitigation as2514INas evidence2515NNevidence of2516INof an2517DTan oppressed2518VVNoppress developer2519NNdeveloper community2520NNcommunity that2521WDTthat cannot2522MDcan speak2523VVspeak for2524INfor itself2525PPitself .2526SENT. These2527DTthese ...2528:... you2529PPyou know2530VVPknow ,2531,, the2532DTthe fact2533NNfact of2534INof the2535DTthe matter2536NNmatter is2537VBZbe that2538IN/thatthat nowadays2539RBnowadays major2540JJmajor companies2541NNScompany suing2542VVGsue their2543PP$their suppliers2544NNSsupplier happens2545VVZhappen all2546DTall of2547INof the2548DTthe time2549NNtime .2550SENT. The2551DTthe idea2552NNidea that2553IN/thatthat it2554PPit ...2555:... that2556WDTthat it2557PPit ...2558:... that2559IN/thatthat it2560PPit does2561VVZdo n't2562RBn't ,2563,, which2564WDTwhich was2565VBDbe decried2566VVNdecry by2567INby Judge2568NPJudge Posner2569NPPosner as2570INas fanciful2571JJfanciful ,2572,, has2573VHZhave proven2574VVNprove to2575TOto be2576VBbe fanciful2577JJfanciful because2578INbecause it2579PPit literally2580RBliterally happens2581VVZhappen all2582DTall of2583INof the2584DTthe time2585NNtime .2586SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2587LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well2588UHWell ,2589,, Mr2590NPMr .2591SENT. Wall2592NPWall ,2593,, along2594INalong those2595DTthose lines2596NNSline ,2597,, I2598PPI ...2599:... I2600PPI take2601VVPtake your2602PP$your point2603NNpoint that2604IN/thatthat Illinois2605NPIllinois Brick2606NPBrick and2607CCand Hanover2608NPHanover Shoe2609NPShoe might2610MDmight be2611VBbe read2612VVNread about2613INabout the2614DTthe economic2615JJeconomic realities2616NNSreality of2617INof the2618DTthe pass-through2619JJpass-through mechanism2620NNmechanism being2621VBGbe important2622JJimportant ,2623,, rather2624RBrather than2625INthan the2626DTthe contractual2627JJcontractual formalities2628NNSformality ,2629,, whether2630INwhether it2631PPit 's2632VBZbe a2633DTa sales2634JJsales agent2635NNagent or2636CCor a2637DTa formal2638JJformal purchase2639NNpurchase between2640INbetween the2641DTthe manufacturer2642NNmanufacturer and2643CCand the2644DTthe distributor2645NNdistributor .2646SENT. And2647CCand antitrust2648JJantitrust normally2649RBnormally accounts2650VVZaccount for2651INfor economics2652NNSeconomics ,2653,, rather2654RBrather than2655INthan forms2656NNSform of2657INof contract2658NNcontract .2659SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]2660LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Indeed2661RBindeed .2662SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2663LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I2664PPI take2665VVPtake your2666PP$your point2667NNpoint .2668SENT. But2669CCbut building2670VVGbuild on2671INon what2672WPwhat Justice2673NPJustice Alito2674NPAlito had2675VHDhave in2676INin mind2677NNmind ,2678,, Illinois2679NPIllinois Brick2680NPBrick has2681VHZhave been2682VBNbe questioned2683VVNquestion by2684INby states2685NNSstate before2686INbefore this2687DTthis Court2688NPCourt in2689INin an2690DTan amicus2691NNamicus brief2692NNbrief .2693SENT. You2694PPyou 're2695VBPbe asking2696VVGask us2697PPus to2698TOto extend2699VVextend Illinois2700NPIllinois Brick2701NPBrick ,2702,, admittedly2703RBadmittedly ,2704,, only2705RBonly because2706INbecause of2707INof a2708DTa contractual2709JJcontractual formality2710NNformality and2711CCand the2712DTthe economic2713JJeconomic realities2714NNSreality are2715VBPbe the2716DTthe same2717JJsame .2718SENT. I2719PPI 'll2720MDwill spot2721VVspot you2722PPyou all2723RBall of2724INof that2725IN/thatthat for2726INfor purposes2727NNSpurpose of2728INof this2729DTthis question2730NNquestion .2731SENT. But2732CCbut why2733WRBwhy should2734MDshould we2735PPwe build2736VVbuild on2737INon Illinois2738NPIllinois Brick2739NPBrick ?2740SENT? Should2741MDshould n't2742RBn't we2743PPwe question2744VVPquestion Illinois2745NPIllinois Brick2746NPBrick ,2747,, perhaps2748RBperhaps ,2749,, given2750VVNgive the2751DTthe fact2752NNfact that2753IN/thatthat so2754RBso many2755JJmany states2756NNSstate have2757VHPhave done2758VVNdo so2759RBso .2760SENT. They2761PPthey 've2762VHPhave repealed2763VVNrepeal it2764PPit .2765SENT. There2766EXthere have2767VHPhave n't2768RBn't been2769VBNbe a2770DTa huge2771JJhuge number2772NNnumber of2773INof reported2774VVNreport problems2775NNSproblem with2776INwith indirect2777JJindirect purchasers2778NNSpurchaser and2779CCand direct2780JJdirect purchasers2781NNSpurchaser receiving2782VVGreceive double2783JJdouble recovery2784NNrecovery ,2785,, one2786CDone of2787INof the2788DTthe problems2789NNSproblem Illinois2790NPIllinois Brick2791NPBrick built2792VVDbuild on2793INon ,2794,, and2795CCand the2796DTthe other2797JJother one2798CDone ,2799,, which2800WDTwhich Justice2801NPJustice Alito2802NPAlito alluded2803VVDallude to2804TOto ,2805,, is2806VBZbe direct2807JJdirect purchasers2808NNSpurchaser do2809VVPdo n't2810RBn't always2811RBalways sue2812VVsue because2813INbecause there2814EXthere 's2815VBZbe a2816DTa threat2817NNthreat that2818IN/thatthat monopolists2819NNSmonopolist will2820MDwill share2821VVshare the2822DTthe rents2823NNSrent with2824INwith the2825DTthe direct2826JJdirect purchasers2827NNSpurchaser .2828SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]2829LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Right2830NPRight .2831SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2832LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And2833CCand indirect2834JJindirect purchasers2835NNSpurchaser may2836MDmay be2837VBbe better2838RBRwell suited2839VVNsuit to2840TOto enforce2841VVenforce the2842DTthe antitrust2843JJantitrust laws2844NNSlaw .2845SENT. So2846INso long2847JJlong wind-up2848NNSwind-up .2849SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]2850LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Okay2851NPOkay .2852SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2853LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Sorry2854JJsorry ,2855,, but2856CCbut there2857RBthere ...2858:... there2859EXthere 's2860VBZbe the2861DTthe pitch2862NNpitch .2863SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]2864LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Sure2865NPSure .2866SENT. So2867INso a2868DTa few2869JJfew things2870NNSthing .2871SENT. First2872JJfirst of2873INof all2874DTall ,2875,, it2876PPit is2877VBZbe ...2878:... it2879PPit is2880VBZbe an2881DTan enormously2882RBenormously complicated2883JJcomplicated and2884CCand controversial2885JJcontroversial issue2886NNissue ,2887,, what2888WPwhat to2889TOto do2890VVdo with2891INwith the2892DTthe Illinois2893NPIllinois Brick2894NPBrick doctrine2895NNdoctrine .2896SENT. You2897PPyou can2898MDcan see2899VVsee this2900DTthis in2901RPin ...2902:... in2903INin the2904DTthe briefing2905NNbriefing in2906INin this2907DTthis case2908NNcase where2909WRBwhere ,2910,, yes2911UHyes ,2912,, you2913PPyou did2914VVDdo have2915VHhave states2916NNSstate saying2917VVGsay repeal2918NNrepeal it2919PPit .2920SENT. You2921PPyou also2922RBalso had2923VHDhave the2924DTthe plaintiffs2925NNSplaintiff '2926POS' bar2927NNbar through2928INthrough the2929DTthe American2930NPAmerican Antitrust2931NPAntitrust Institute2932NPInstitute say2933VVPsay do2934VVPdo n't2935RBn't repeal2936VVrepeal it2937PPit .2938SENT. There2939EXthere have2940VHPhave been2941VBNbe ,2942,, I2943PPI think2944VVPthink ,2945,, on2946INon the2947DTthe order2948NNorder of2949INof 172950CD@card@ efforts2951NNSeffort in2952INin Congress2953NPCongress to2954TOto have2955VHhave ...2956:... have2957VHPhave it2958PPit changed2959VVNchange .2960SENT. Not2961RBnot once2962RBonce has2963VHZhave it2964PPit ever2965RBever gotten2966VVNget to2967TOto the2968DTthe floor2969NNfloor .2970SENT. It2971PPit is2972VBZbe a2973DTa quintessentially2974RBquintessentially controversial2975JJcontroversial political2976JJpolitical issue2977NNissue which2978WDTwhich belongs2979VVZbelong across2980INacross the2981DTthe street2982NNstreet ,2983,, not2984RBnot here2985RBhere .2986SENT. I2987PPI would2988MDwould disagree2989VVdisagree completely2990RBcompletely ...2991:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2992LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Why2993WRBwhy ?2994SENT? Why2995WRBwhy is2996VBZbe that2997IN/thatthat so2998RBso if2999INif the3000DTthe Court3001NPCourt created3002VVDcreate the3003DTthe doctrine3004NNdoctrine in3005INin the3006DTthe first3007JJfirst place3008NNplace ?3009SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]3010LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Because3011INbecause I3012PPI do3013VVPdo n't3014RBn't think3015VVthink it3016PPit 's3017VBZbe fair3018JJfair to3019TOto say3020VVsay that3021IN/thatthat the3022DTthe Court3023NPCourt just3024RBjust created3025VVDcreate it3026PPit .3027SENT. What3028WPWhat the3029DTthe Court3030NPCourt did3031VVDdo was3032VBDbe it3033PPit applied3034VVDapply the3035DTthe foundational3036JJfoundational principle3037NNprinciple of3038INof all3039DTall Section3040NPSection 43041CD4 jurisprudence3042NNjurisprudence ,3043,, which3044WDTwhich is3045VBZbe the3046DTthe proximate3047JJproximate cause3048NNcause principle3049NNprinciple of3050INof damages3051NNSdamage not3052RBnot going3053VVGgo past3054INpast the3055DTthe first3056JJfirst step3057NNstep ,3058,, and3059CCand then3060RBthen it3061PPit ...3062:... it3063PPit dealt3064VVDdeal with3065INwith that3066DTthat in3067INin the3068DTthe context3069NNcontext of3070INof the3071DTthe potential3072NNpotential for3073INfor duplicative3074JJduplicative pass-through3075JJpass-through over-charge3076NNover-charge claims3077NNSclaim ,3078,, which3079WDTwhich are3080VBPbe a3081DTa unique3082JJunique problem3083NNproblem in3084INin antitrust3085JJantitrust .3086SENT. It3087PPit 's3088VBZbe not3089RBnot a3090DTa general3091JJgeneral problem3092NNproblem of3093INof all3094DTall damage3095NNdamage theories3096NNStheory .3097SENT. But3098CCbut ,3099,, when3100WRBwhen you3101PPyou have3102VHPhave over-charge3103NNSover-charge cases3104NNScase ...3105:... and3106CCand this3107DTthis gets3108VVZget to3109TOto Justice3110NPJustice Gorsuch3111NPGorsuch 's3112POS's point3113NNpoint about3114INabout the3115DTthe potential3116NNpotential for3117INfor ...3118:... for3119INfor duplicative3120JJduplicative recovery3121NNrecovery ...3122:... it3123PPit 's3124VBZbe not3125RBnot hypothetical3126JJhypothetical .3127SENT. It3128PPit 's3129VBZbe automatic3130JJautomatic .3131SENT. It3132PPit 's3133VBZbe mathematical3134JJmathematical .3135SENT. If3136INif the3137DTthe first3138JJfirst purchaser3139NNpurchaser gets3140VVZget percent3141NNpercent of3142INof the3143DTthe over-charge3144NNover-charge because3145INbecause of3146INof Hanover3147NPHanover Shoe3148NPShoe ,3149,, anything3150NNanything else3151NNelse that3152WDTthat is3153VBZbe recovered3154VVNrecover that3155DTthat gets3156VVZget added3157VVNadd on3158INon to3159TOto that3160DTthat is3161VBZbe necessarily3162RBnecessarily duplicative3163JJduplicative ,3164,, and3165CCand that3166DTthat 's3167VBZbe what3168WPwhat happens3169VVZhappen in3170INin the3171DTthe district3172NNdistrict courts3173NNScourt .3174SENT. You3175PPyou get3176VVPget the3177DTthe direct3178JJdirect purchasers3179NNSpurchaser and3180CCand the3181DTthe direct3182JJdirect purchasers3183NNSpurchaser suing3184VVGsue on3185INon whatever3186WDTwhatever theory3187NNtheory optimizes3188VVZoptimize their3189PP$their level3190NNlevel of3191INof recovery3192NNrecovery .3193SENT. I3194PPI 'd3195MDwould like3196VVlike to3197TOto reserve3198VVreserve the3199DTthe rest3200NNrest of3201INof my3202PP$my time3203NNtime and3204CCand turn3205VVturn it3206PPit over3207RPover to3208TOto the3209DTthe Solicitor3210NPSolicitor General3211NPGeneral at3212INat this3213DTthis point3214NNpoint .3215SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3216LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank3217VVthank you3218PPyou ,3219,, counsel3220NNcounsel .3221SENT. General3222NPGeneral Francisco3223NPFrancisco .3224SENT.

[GENERAL FRANCISCO]3225LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Mr3226NPMr .3227SENT. Chief3228NPChief Justice3229NPJustice ,3230,, and3231CCand may3232MDmay it3233PPit please3234VVplease the3235DTthe Court3236NPCourt :3237:: I3238PPI 'd3239MDwould like3240VVlike to3241TOto begin3242VVbegin where3243WRBwhere Mr3244NPMr .3245SENT. Wall3246NPWall left3247VVDleave out3248RPout ,3249,, and3250CCand I3251PPI think3252VVPthink it3253PPit addresses3254VVZaddress many3255JJmany of3256INof the3257DTthe questions3258NNSquestion that3259WDTthat have3260VHPhave been3261VBNbe asked3262VVNask here3263RBhere .3264SENT. At3265INat bottom3266NNbottom ,3267,, Illinois3268NPIllinois Brick3269NPBrick and3270CCand Hanover3271NPHanover Shoe3272NPShoe ,3273,, properly3274RBproperly understood3275VVNunderstand ,3276,, prohibit3277VVPprohibit pass-through3278JJpass-through theories3279NNStheory .3280SENT. And3281CCand they3282PPthey reflect3283VVPreflect a3284DTa basic3285JJbasic application3286NNapplication of3287INof the3288DTthe background3289NNbackground principles3290NNSprinciple of3291INof proximate3292JJproximate cause3293NNcause that3294IN/thatthat this3295DTthis Court3296NPCourt generally3297RBgenerally reads3298VVZread into3299INinto statutes3300NNSstatute of3301INof this3302DTthis sort3303NNsort ,3304,, and3305CCand ,3306,, in3307INin particular3308JJparticular ,3309,, the3310DTthe rule3311NNrule that3312IN/thatthat damages3313NNSdamage stop3314VVstop at3315INat the3316DTthe first3317JJfirst step3318NNstep .3319SENT. Here3320RBhere ,3321,, the3322DTthe first3323JJfirst step3324NNstep is3325VBZbe the3326DTthe app3327NPApp maker3328NNmaker 's3329POS's pricing3330NNpricing decision3331NNdecision ,3332,, because3333INbecause the3334DTthe Respondents3335NNSrespondent ,3336,, the3337DTthe consumers3338NNSconsumer ,3339,, are3340VBPbe injured3341VVNinjure if3342INif and3343CCand only3344RBonly if3345INif the3346DTthe app3347NPApp makers3348NNSmaker decide3349VVPdecide to3350TOto increase3351VVincrease their3352PP$their prices3353NNSprice in3354INin order3355NNorder to3356TOto recoup3357VVrecoup ...3358:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3359LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] General3360NPGeneral ...3361:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3362LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...3363:... Apple's3364NPApple's ...3365:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3366LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I3367PPI have3368VHPhave to3369TOto say3370VVsay I3371PPI find3372VVfind that3373IN/thatthat a3374DTa not3375RBnot intuitive3376JJintuitive argument3377NNargument ,3378,, I3379PPI mean3380VVPmean ,3381,, because3382INbecause it3383PPit just3384RBjust seems3385VVZseem to3386TOto me3387PPme that3388IN/thatthat when3389WRBwhen you3390PPyou 're3391VBPbe looking3392VVGlook at3393INat the3394DTthe relationship3395NNrelationship between3396INbetween the3397DTthe consumer3398NNconsumer and3399CCand Apple3400NPApple ,3401,, that3402IN/thatthat there3403EXthere is3404VBZbe only3405RBonly one3406CDone step3407NNstep .3408SENT. I3409PPI mean3410VVPmean ,3411,, I3412PPI pick3413VVPpick up3414RPup my3415PP$my iPhone3416NNiPhone .3417SENT. I3418PPI go3419VVPgo to3420TOto Apple3421NPApple 's3422POS's App3423NPApp Store3424NPStore .3425SENT. I3426PPI pay3427VVPpay Apple3428NPApple directly3429RBdirectly with3430INwith the3431DTthe credit3432NNcredit card3433NNcard information3434NNinformation that3435IN/thatthat I3436PPI 've3437VHPhave supplied3438VVNsupply to3439TOto Apple3440NPApple .3441SENT. From3442INfrom ...3443:... from3444INfrom my3445PP$my perspective3446NNperspective ,3447,, I3448PPI 've3449VHPhave just3450RBjust engaged3451VVNengage in3452INin a3453DTa one-step3454NNone-step transaction3455NNtransaction with3456INwith Apple3457NPApple .3458SENT. And3459CCand when3460WRBwhen I3461PPI come3462VVPcome in3463INin and3464CCand say3465VVPsay Apple3466NPApple is3467VBZbe a3468DTa monopolist3469NNmonopolist and3470CCand Apple3471NPApple is3472VBZbe charging3473VVGcharge a3474DTa super-competitive3475JJsuper-competitive price3476NNprice by3477INby ...3478:... by3479INby ...3480:... by3481INby extracting3482VVGextract a3483DTa commission3484NNcommission that3485IN/thatthat it3486PPit can3487MDcan only3488RBonly extract3489VVextract because3490INbecause of3491INof its3492PP$its market3493NNmarket power3494NNpower ,3495,, I3496PPI mean3497VVPmean ,3498,, there3499EXthere 's3500VBZbe my3501PP$my one3502CDone step3503NNstep .3504SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3505LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right3506NPRight .3507SENT. I3508PPI understand3509VVPunderstand that3510IN/thatthat ,3511,, Your3512PP$your Honor3513NPHonor .3514SENT. But3515CCbut ,3516,, in3517INin proximate3518JJproximate cause3519NNcause ,3520,, the3521DTthe issue3522NNissue is3523VBZbe not3524RBnot transactional3525JJtransactional proximity3526NNproximity .3527SENT. The3528DTthe issue3529NNissue is3530VBZbe proximity3531NNproximity between3532INbetween the3533DTthe illegal3534JJillegal conduct3535NNconduct on3536INon the3537DTthe one3538CDone hand3539NNhand ,3540,, here3541RBhere ,3542,, Apple3543NPApple 's3544POS's monopolistic3545JJmonopolistic over-charge3546NNover-charge ,3547,, and3548CCand the3549DTthe injury3550NNinjury to3551TOto consumers3552NNSconsumer on3553INon the3554DTthe other3555JJother hand3556NNhand ,3557,, here3558RBhere ,3559,, the3560DTthe higher3561JJRhigh prices3562NNSprice .3563SENT. And3564CCand Apple3565NPApple 's3566POS's monopolistic3567JJmonopolistic over-charge3568NNover-charge is3569VBZbe not3570RBnot the3571DTthe direct3572JJdirect cause3573NNcause of3574INof higher3575JJRhigh prices3576NNSprice .3577SENT. The3578DTthe direct3579JJdirect cause3580NNcause of3581INof the3582DTthe higher3583JJRhigh prices3584NNSprice is3585VBZbe the3586DTthe app3587NPApp maker3588NNmaker 's3589POS's decision3590NNdecision to3591TOto increase3592VVincrease their3593PP$their prices3594NNSprice in3595INin order3596NNorder to3597TOto recoup3598VVrecoup the3599DTthe over-charge3600NNover-charge .3601SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3602LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] How3603WRBHow do3604VVPdo we3605PPwe know3606VVPknow that3607RBthat ?3608SENT? How3609WRBHow do3610VVPdo we3611PPwe know3612VVPknow that3613IN/thatthat ,3614,, given3615VVNgive that3616IN/thatthat Apple3617NPApple really3618RBreally operates3619VVZoperate as3620INas a3621DTa retailer3622NNretailer in3623INin many3624JJmany respects3625NNSrespect here3626RBhere ,3627,, as3628INas Justice3629NPJustice Kagan3630NPKagan points3631VVZpoint out3632RPout ?3633SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3634LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right3635NPRight .3636SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3637LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] And3638CCand how3639WRBhow do3640VVPdo we3641PPwe know3642VVPknow that3643IN/thatthat the3644DTthe 303645CD@card@ percent3646NNpercent charge3647NNcharge is3648VBZbe not3649RBnot affecting3650VVGaffect the3651DTthe price3652NNprice ?3653SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3654LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well3655UHwell ,3656,, you3657PPyou do3658VVPdo n't3659RBn't know3660VVknow ...3661:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3662LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] In3663INin the3664DTthe same3665JJsame way3666NNway that3667IN/thatthat any3668DTany retailer3669NNretailer that3670WDTthat adds3671VVZadd 303672CD@card@ percent3673NNpercent would3674MDwould affect3675VVaffect the3676DTthe ultimate3677JJultimate price3678NNprice paid3679VVNpay by3680INby the3681DTthe consumer3682NNconsumer ?3683SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3684LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] You3685PPyou do3686VVPdo n't3687RBn't know3688VVknow for3689INfor sure3690JJsure ,3691,, but3692CCbut that3693DTthat 's3694VBZbe the3695DTthe whole3696JJwhole point3697NNpoint .3698SENT. Here3699RBhere ,3700,, because3701INbecause app3702NPApp makers3703NNSmaker set3704VVDset the3705DTthe final3706JJfinal price3707NNprice ,3708,, they3709PPthey have3710VHPhave a3711DTa choice3712NNchoice to3713TOto make3714VVmake :3715:: They3716PPthey either3717RBeither absorb3718VVabsorb the3719DTthe over-charge3720NNover-charge and3721CCand keep3722VVkeep prices3723NNSprice the3724DTthe same3725JJsame ,3726,, in3727INin which3728WDTwhich case3729NNcase the3730DTthe consumers3731NNSconsumer are3732VBPbe n't3733RBn't harmed3734VVNharm at3735INat all3736DTall ,3737,, or3738CCor they3739PPthey increase3740VVPincrease their3741PP$their prices3742NNSprice to3743TOto recoup3744VVrecoup the3745DTthe over-charge3746NNover-charge ,3747,, in3748INin which3749WDTwhich case3750NNcase the3751DTthe app3752NPApp makers3753NNSmaker are3754VBPbe also3755RBalso harmed3756VVNharm because3757INbecause they3758PPthey face3759VVPface a3760DTa drop3761NNdrop in3762INin sales3763NNSsale as3764INas a3765DTa result3766NNresult of3767INof increased3768VVNincrease prices3769NNSprice .3770SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3771LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But3772CCbut the3773DTthe consumers3774NNSconsumer are3775VBPbe harmed3776VVNharm then3777RBthen too3778RBtoo .3779SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3780LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes3781NPYes ,3782,, Your3783PP$your Honor3784NPHonor .3785SENT. And3786CCand that3787DTthat 's3788VBZbe the3789DTthe whole3790JJwhole point3791NNpoint of3792INof Illinois3793NPIllinois Brick3794NPBrick and3795CCand Hanover3796NPHanover Shoe3797NPShoe .3798SENT. When3799WRBwhen you3800PPyou 've3801VHPhave got3802VVNget part3803NNpart of3804INof the3805DTthe harm3806NNharm going3807VVGgo to3808TOto that3809DTthat initial3810JJinitial party3811NNparty that3812WDTthat 's3813VBZbe bearing3814VVGbear the3815DTthe full3816JJfull brunt3817NNbrunt of3818INof the3819DTthe over-charge3820NNover-charge in3821INin the3822DTthe first3823JJfirst instance3824NNinstance because3825INbecause of3826INof its3827PP$its pricing3828NNpricing decision3829NNdecision ,3830,, that3831WDTthat 's3832VBZbe the3833DTthe party3834NNparty that3835WDTthat gets3836VVZget the3837DTthe whole3838JJwhole claim3839NNclaim .3840SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3841LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But3842CCbut we3843PPwe have3844VHPhave ambiguity3845NNambiguity about3846INabout what3847WPwhat Illinois3848NPIllinois Brick3849NPBrick means3850VVZmean here3851RBhere ,3852,, and3853CCand should3854MDshould n't3855RBn't that3856DTthat ambiguity3857NNambiguity ,3858,, if3859INif ...3860:... if3861INif there3862EXthere is3863VBZbe such3864JJsuch ambiguity3865NNambiguity ,3866,, be3867VBbe resolved3868VVNresolve by3869INby looking3870VVGlook at3871INat the3872DTthe text3873NNtext of3874INof the3875DTthe statute3876NNstatute ?3877SENT? Any3878DTany person3879NNperson injured3880VVNinjure ?3881SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3882LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes3883NPYes ,3884,, Your3885PP$your Honor3886NPHonor .3887SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3888LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] That3889DTthat 's3890VBZbe broad3891JJbroad .3892SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3893LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And3894CCand what3895WPwhat I3896PPI think3897VVPthink that3898IN/thatthat Illinois3899NPIllinois Brick3900NPBrick reflects3901VVZreflect is3902VBZbe the3903DTthe type3904NNtype of3905INof statutory3906JJstatutory interpretation3907NNinterpretation that3908IN/thatthat this3909DTthis Court3910NPCourt has3911VHZhave engaged3912VVNengage in3913RPin in3914INin a3915DTa variety3916NNvariety of3917INof cases3918NNScase ,3919,, including3920VVGinclude the3921DTthe RICO3922NPRICO cases3923NNScase ,3924,, including3925VVGinclude the3926DTthe Lexmark3927NPLexmark cases3928NNScase ,3929,, where3930WRBwhere you3931PPyou interpret3932VVPinterpret background3933NNbackground principles3934NNSprinciple of3935INof proximate3936JJproximate cause3937NNcause to3938TOto be3939VBbe built3940VVNbuild into3941INinto the3942DTthe statute3943NNstatute ,3944,, including3945VVGinclude the3946DTthe rule3947NNrule that3948IN/thatthat damages3949NNSdamage stop3950VVstop at3951INat the3952DTthe first3953JJfirst step3954NNstep .3955SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3956LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Does3957VVZdo it3958PPit make3959VVmake a3960DTa difference3961NNdifference ,3962,, General3963NPGeneral ,3964,, that3965WDTthat ...3966:... that3967IN/thatthat Apple3968NPApple is3969VBZbe influencing3970VVGinfluence the3971DTthe prices3972NNSprice here3973RBhere ?3974SENT? In3975INin other3976JJother words3977NNSword ,3978,, this3979DTthis is3980VBZbe ...3981:... you3982PPyou 're3983VBPbe suggesting3984VVGsuggest that3985IN/thatthat the3986DTthe app3987NPApp developers3988NNSdeveloper are3989VBPbe just3990RBjust sort3991NNsort of3992INof setting3993VVGset these3994DTthese prices3995NNSprice independently3996RBindependently ...3997:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3998LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh3999NPUh-huh .4000SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4001LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4002:... but4003CCbut I4004PPI 'll4005MDwill give4006VVgive you4007PPyou sort4008VVsort of4009INof two4010CDtwo ways4011NNSway in4012INin which4013WDTwhich that4014DTthat 's4015VBZbe not4016RBnot true4017JJtrue .4018SENT. The4019DTthe first4020JJfirst way4021NNway is4022VBZbe this4023DTthis 994024CD@card@ cent4025NNcent charge4026NNcharge ...4027:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4028LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh4029NPUh-huh .4030SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4031LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4032:... which4033WDTwhich you4034PPyou might4035MDmight say4036VVsay ,4037,, well4038RBwell ,4039,, that4040WDTthat does4041VVZdo n't4042RBn't matter4043VVmatter because4044INbecause ,4045,, you4046PPyou know4047VVPknow ,4048,, it4049PPit could4050MDcould be4051VBbe 994052CD@card@ cents4053NNScent or4054CCor it4055PPit could4056MDcould be4057VBbe 234058RB@card@ $4059$$ 1004060CD@card@ .4061SENT. 994062CD@card@ .4063SENT. But4064CCbut ,4065,, in4066INin fact4067NNfact ,4068,, these4069DTthese are4070VBPbe all4071DTall low-cost4072JJlow-cost products4073NNSproduct for4074INfor the4075DTthe most4076JJSmost part4077NNpart .4078SENT. So4079RBso saying4080VVGsay a4081DTa price4082NNprice has4083VHZhave to4084TOto end4085VVend with4086INwith the4087DTthe ...4088:... you4089PPyou know4090VVPknow ,4091,, the4092DTthe ...4093:... the4094DTthe number4095NNnumber 994096CD@card@ is4097VBZbe saying4098VVGsay a4099DTa lot4100NNlot about4101INabout the4102DTthe fact4103NNfact that4104IN/thatthat you4105PPyou can4106MDcan 't4107RB't charge4108NNcharge 774109CD@card@ cents4110NNScent or4111CCor 554112CD@card@ cents4113NNScent ...4114:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4115LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure4116NPSure .4117SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4118LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4119:... or4120CCor 324121CD@card@ cents4122NNScent .4123SENT. So4124RBso that4125DTthat 's4126VBZbe one4127CDone .4128SENT. And4129CCand the4130DTthe other4131JJother is4132VBZbe the4133DTthe entire4134JJentire allegation4135NNallegation here4136RBhere is4137VBZbe that4138IN/thatthat Apple4139NPApple is4140VBZbe truly4141RBtruly a4142DTa monopolist4143NNmonopolist on4144INon both4145DTboth sides4146NNSside of4147INof the4148DTthe market4149NNmarket .4150SENT. It4151PPit 's4152VBZbe able4153JJable to4154TOto dictate4155VVdictate to4156TOto developers4157NNSdeveloper whatever4158WDTwhatever price4159VVPprice structure4160NNstructure it4161PPit wants4162VVZwant ,4163,, and4164CCand it4165PPit 's4166VBZbe also4167RBalso able4168JJable to4169TOto dictate4170VVdictate to4171TOto consumers4172NNSconsumer what4173WPwhat the4174DTthe nature4175NNnature of4176INof the4177DTthe sale4178NNsale is4179VBZbe going4180VVGgo to4181TOto be4182VBbe .4183SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4184LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right4185NPRight .4186SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4187LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And4188CCand in4189INin that4190DTthat event4191NNevent ,4192,, it4193PPit ...4194:... it4195PPit sure4196RBsure seems4197VVZseem as4198RBas though4199RBthough ,4200,, you4201PPyou know4202VVPknow ,4203,, Apple4204NPApple ...4205:... you4206PPyou know4207VVPknow ,4208,, it4209PPit happened4210VVDhappen to4211TOto set4212VVset up4213RPup this4214DTthis commission4215NNcommission that4216WDTthat puts4217VVZput it4218PPit in4219INin the4220DTthe ambit4221NNambit of4222INof Illinois4223NPIllinois Brick4224NPBrick ,4225,, but4226CCbut it4227PPit could4228MDcould have4229VHhave done4230VVNdo a4231DTa thousand4232CDthousand other4233JJother things4234NNSthing that4235WDTthat are4236VBPbe essentially4237RBessentially the4238DTthe same4239JJsame that4240WDTthat would4241MDwould have4242VHhave taken4243VVNtake it4244PPit out4245RPout of4246INof the4247DTthe Illinois4248NPIllinois Brick4249NPBrick rule4250NNrule .4251SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4252LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure4253NPSure .4254SENT. And4255CCand let4256VVlet me4257PPme take4258VVtake those4259DTthose points4260NNSpoint in4261INin turn4262NNturn .4263SENT. First4264RBfirst ,4265,, the4266DTthe 994267CD@card@ cent4268NNcent pricing4269NNpricing policy4270NNpolicy .4271SENT. The4272DTthe first4273JJfirst thing4274NNthing I4275PPI 'll4276MDwill point4277VVpoint out4278RPout is4279VBZbe it4280PPit 's4281VBZbe not4282RBnot in4283INin the4284DTthe complaint4285NNcomplaint ,4286,, but4287CCbut we4288PPwe 'll4289MDwill put4290VVput that4291IN/thatthat to4292TOto the4293DTthe side4294NNside and4295CCand assume4296VVPassume that4297IN/thatthat it4298PPit 's4299VBZbe part4300NNpart of4301INof this4302DTthis case4303NNcase .4304SENT. Here4305RBhere ,4306,, I4307PPI do4308VVPdo n't4309RBn't think4310VVthink it4311PPit changes4312VVZchange the4313DTthe fact4314NNfact that4315IN/thatthat the4316DTthe app4317NPApp makers4318NNSmaker still4319RBstill control4320VVPcontrol the4321DTthe overall4322JJoverall price4323NNprice ,4324,, and4325CCand to4326TOto the4327DTthe extent4328NNextent that4329WDTthat ...4330:... to4331TOto the4332DTthe extent4333NNextent that4334IN/thatthat Respondents4335NNSrespondent are4336VBPbe harmed4337VVNharm by4338INby that4339DTthat ,4340,, it4341PPit 's4342VBZbe based4343VVNbase on4344INon a4345DTa pass-through4346JJpass-through .4347SENT. Look4348NNlook ,4349,, if4350INif I4351PPI go4352VVPgo to4353TOto an4354DTan auction4355NNauction house4356NNhouse and4357CCand I4358PPI have4359VHPhave to4360TOto bid4361VVbid in4362INin $4363$$ 104364CD@card@ increments4365NNSincrement ,4366,, nobody4367NNnobody thinks4368VVZthink the4369DTthe auction4370NNauction house4371NNhouse is4372VBZbe setting4373VVGset the4374DTthe price4375NNprice .4376SENT. The4377DTthe bidders4378NNSbidder are4379VBPbe still4380RBstill setting4381VVGset the4382DTthe price4383NNprice .4384SENT. And4385CCand ,4386,, here4387RBhere ,4388,, the4389DTthe Respondents4390NNSrespondent are4391VBPbe ...4392:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4393LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But4394CCbut if4395INif you4396PPyou have4397VHPhave to4398TOto bid4399VVbid in4400INin $4401$$ 104402CD@card@ increments4403NNSincrement and4404CCand the4405DTthe ...4406:... and4407CCand the4408DTthe true4409JJtrue alternative4410NNalternative prices4411NNSprice are4412VBPbe $4413$$ 34414CD3 ,4415,, $4416$$ 54417CD5 ,4418,, and4419CCand $4420$$ 74421CD7 ...4422:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4423LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right4424RBright .4425SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4426LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4427:... then4428RBthen ,4429,, indeed4430RBindeed ,4431,, you4432PPyou are4433VBPbe setting4434VVGset the4435DTthe price4436NNprice .4437SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4438LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And4439CCand ,4440,, well4441UHwell ,4442,, that4443WDTthat 's4444VBZbe my4445PP$my second4446JJsecond point4447NNpoint ,4448,, Your4449PP$your Honor4450NPHonor .4451SENT. Here4452RBhere ,4453,, any4454DTany injury4455NNinjury is4456VBZbe based4457VVNbase on4458INon a4459DTa pass-through4460JJpass-through because4461INbecause app4462NPApp makers4463NNSmaker are4464VBPbe either4465RBeither going4466VVGgo to4467TOto round4468VVround up4469RPup or4470CCor they4471PPthey 're4472VBPbe going4473VVGgo to4474TOto round4475VVround down4476RPdown .4477SENT. If4478INif they4479PPthey round4480VVPround down4481RBdown to4482TOto the4483DTthe lower4484JJRlow cent4485NNcent price4486NNprice point4487NNpoint ,4488,, the4489DTthe consumers4490NNSconsumer are4491VBPbe n't4492RBn't injured4493VVNinjure at4494INat all4495DTall .4496SENT. If4497INif they4498PPthey round4499VVPround up4500RPup to4501TOto the4502DTthe next4503JJnext cent4504NNcent price4505NNprice point4506NNpoint ,4507,, the4508DTthe consumers4509NNSconsumer are4510VBPbe injured4511VVNinjure as4512INas a4513DTa result4514NNresult of4515INof the4516DTthe pass-through4517JJpass-through theory4518NNtheory .4519SENT. And4520CCand it4521PPit 's4522VBZbe that4523DTthat intermediating4524VVGintermediating pricing4525NNpricing decision4526NNdecision that4527IN/thatthat we4528PPwe think4529VVPthink that4530IN/thatthat under4531INunder the4532DTthe principles4533NNSprinciple of4534INof proximate4535JJproximate cause4536NNcause that4537WDTthat ...4538:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4539LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] General4540NPGeneral ,4541,, the4542DTthe problem4543NNproblem is4544VBZbe that4545IN/thatthat they4546PPthey 're4547VBPbe not4548RBnot measuring4549VVGmeasure damages4550NNSdamage by4551INby that4552DTthat .4553SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4554LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] I4555PPI ...4556:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4557LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] As4558INas I4559PPI understand4560VVPunderstand ,4561,, they4562PPthey 're4563VBPbe saying4564VVGsay it4565PPit 's4566VBZbe not4567RBnot the4568DTthe 304569CD@card@ percent4570NNpercent ;4571:; it4572PPit is4573VBZbe what4574WPwhat the4575DTthe price4576NNprice would4577MDwould be4578VBbe if4579INif we4580PPwe could4581MDcould buy4582VVbuy apps4583NNSapps outside4584JJoutside of4585INof this4586DTthis closed4587JJclosed loop4588NNloop .4589SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4590LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] I4591PPI ...4592:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4593LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] And4594CCand it4595PPit could4596MDcould be4597VBbe theoretically4598RBtheoretically a4599DTa lot4600NNlot higher4601JJRhigh than4602INthan the4603DTthe markup4604NNmarkup ,4605,, it4606PPit could4607MDcould well4608RBwell be4609VBbe within4610INwithin it4611PPit ,4612,, but4613CCbut the4614DTthe point4615NNpoint is4616VBZbe that4617IN/thatthat that4618DTthat 304619CD@card@ percent4620NNpercent ...4621:... that4622DTthat 304623CD@card@ percent4624NNpercent or4625CCor whatever4626WDTwhatever that4627DTthat 304628CD@card@ ...4629:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4630LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh4631NPUh-huh .4632SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4633LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...4634:... percent4635NNpercent figure4636NNfigure is4637VBZbe ,4638,, is4639VBZbe not4640RBnot the4641DTthe measure4642NNmeasure of4643INof our4644PP$our damages4645NNSdamage .4646SENT. That4647DTthat 's4648VBZbe as4649INas I4650PPI understand4651VVPunderstand ...4652:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4653LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah4654NPYeah ...4655:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4656LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...4657:... that4658IN/thatthat they4659PPthey 're4660VBPbe saying4661VVGsay the4662DTthe developers4663NNSdeveloper may4664MDmay have4665VHhave their4666PP$their own4667JJown claim4668NNclaim ,4669,, their4670PP$their damages4671NNSdamage likely4672RBlikely have4673VHhave to4674TOto stay4675VVstay within4676INwithin the4677DTthe percent4678NNpercent ,4679,, but4680CCbut we4681PPwe do4682VVPdo n't4683RBn't measure4684VVmeasure our4685PP$our damages4686NNSdamage by4687INby that4688DTthat .4689SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4690LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So4691RBso ,4692,, respectfully4693RBrespectfully ,4694,, I4695PPI 'll4696MDwill disagree4697VVdisagree with4698INwith that4699DTthat ,4700,, and4701CCand in4702INin explaining4703VVGexplain it4704PPit ,4705,, Justice4706NPJustice Kagan4707NPKagan ,4708,, I4709PPI think4710VVPthink I4711PPI can4712MDcan also4713RBalso answer4714VVanswer the4715DTthe second4716JJsecond part4717NNpart of4718INof your4719PP$your question4720NNquestion .4721SENT. The4722DTthe harm4723NNharm to4724TOto the4725DTthe consumers4726NNSconsumer here4727RBhere is4728VBZbe that4729IN/thatthat they4730PPthey have4731VHPhave to4732TOto pay4733VVpay higher4734JJRhigh prices4735NNSprice for4736INfor apps4737NNSapps ,4738,, and4739CCand the4740DTthe reason4741NNreason they4742PPthey have4743VHPhave to4744TOto pay4745VVpay higher4746JJRhigh prices4747NNSprice for4748INfor apps4749NNSapps ...4750:... and4751CCand ,4752,, Justice4753NPJustice Kagan4754NPKagan ,4755,, this4756DTthis goes4757VVZgo to4758TOto your4759PP$your question4760NNquestion ...4761:... is4762VBZbe because4763INbecause Apple4764NPApple controls4765VVZcontrol the4766DTthe pipeline4767NNpipeline that4768WDTthat connects4769VVZconnect app4770JJapp makers4771NNSmaker on4772INon the4773DTthe one4774CDone hand4775NNhand and4776CCand iPhone4777NNiPhone users4778NNSuser on4779INon the4780DTthe other4781JJother .4782SENT. And4783CCand the4784DTthe way4785NNway they4786PPthey exploit4787VVPexploit that4788DTthat pipeline4789NNpipeline through4790INthrough their4791PP$their alleged4792JJalleged monopoly4793NNmonopoly is4794VBZbe by4795INby charging4796VVGcharge that4797IN/thatthat 304798CD@card@ percent4799NNpercent commission4800NNcommission .4801SENT. So4802INso the4803DTthe only4804JJonly reason4805NNreason consumers4806NNSconsumer are4807VBPbe harmed4808VVNharm here4809RBhere in4810INin the4811DTthe form4812NNform of4813INof paying4814VVGpay higher4815JJRhigh prices4816NNSprice is4817VBZbe because4818INbecause the4819DTthe app4820NPApp makers4821NNSmaker decide4822VVPdecide to4823TOto increase4824VVincrease their4825PP$their prices4826NNSprice in4827INin order4828NNorder to4829TOto recoup4830VVrecoup that4831DTthat commission4832NNcommission .4833SENT. And4834CCand ,4835,, Justice4836NPJustice Breyer4837NPBreyer ,4838,, to4839TOto your4840PP$your question4841NNquestion ,4842,, the4843DTthe reason4844NNreason why4845WRBwhy this4846DTthis makes4847VVZmake it4848PPit different4849JJdifferent than4850INthan your4851PP$your hypothetical4852JJhypothetical of4853INof Bill4854NPBill buys4855VVZbuy from4856INfrom Sam4857NPSam and4858CCand you4859PPyou have4860VHPhave transactional4861JJtransactional proximity4862NNproximity is4863VBZbe because4864INbecause the4865DTthe question4866NNquestion is4867VBZbe n't4868RBn't proximity4869NNproximity between4870INbetween the4871DTthe parties4872NNSparty who4873WPwho are4874VBPbe transacting4875VVGtransact with4876INwith one4877CDone another4878DTanother but4879CCbut proximity4880NNproximity between4881INbetween the4882DTthe antitrust4883JJantitrust violation4884NNviolation ,4885,, the4886DTthe percent4887NNpercent commission4888NNcommission ,4889,, and4890CCand the4891DTthe harm4892NNharm to4893TOto consumers4894NNSconsumer in4895INin the4896DTthe form4897NNform of4898INof higher4899JJRhigh prices4900NNSprice .4901SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]4902LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I4903PPI would4904MDwould n't4905RBn't have4906VHhave thought4907VVNthink that4908DTthat was4909VBDbe the4910DTthe antitrust4911JJantitrust violation4912NNviolation .4913SENT. I4914PPI would4915MDwould have4916VHhave thought4917VVNthink the4918DTthe antitrust4919JJantitrust violation4920NNviolation is4921VBZbe having4922VHGhave enormous4923JJenormous market4924NNmarket power4925NNpower achieved4926VVNachieve by4927INby not4928RBnot patents4929NNSpatent and4930CCand not4931RBnot skill4932NNskill ,4933,, foresight4934NNforesight ,4935,, and4936CCand industry4937NNindustry but4938CCbut ,4939,, rather4940RBrather ,4941,, anticompetitive4942JJanticompetitive or4943CCor more4944RBRmore restrictive4945JJrestrictive than4946INthan necessary4947JJnecessary practices4948NNSpractice .4949SENT. Alcoa4950NPAlcoa ...4951:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4952LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] For4953INfor sure4954JJsure .4955SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]4956LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...4957:... Alcoa4958NPAlcoa did4959VVDdo not4960RBnot charge4961VVcharge higher4962JJRhigh than4963INthan competitive4964JJcompetitive prices4965NNSprice ,4966,, and4967CCand that4968DTthat 's4969VBZbe why4970WRBwhy Learned4971NPLearned Hand4972NPHand said4973VVDsay the4974DTthe easy4975JJeasy life4976NNlife ,4977,, not4978RBnot necessarily4979RBnecessarily higher4980JJRhigh prices4981NNSprice ,4982,, is4983VBZbe the4984DTthe reward4985NNreward ,4986,, often4987RBoften ,4988,, of4989INof monopoly4990NNmonopoly .4991SENT. Now4992RBnow ...4993:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4994LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] For4995INfor sure4996JJsure ...4997:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4998LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...4999:... I5000PPI would5001MDwould have5002VHhave thought5003VVNthink it5004PPit 's5005VBZbe a5006DTa matter5007NNmatter for5008INfor proof5009NNproof at5010INat the5011DTthe damages5012NNSdamage stage5013VVPstage whether5014INwhether ,5015,, in5016INin fact5017NNfact ,5018,, Apple5019NPApple ,5020,, assuming5021VVGassume they5022PPthey prove5023VVPprove it5024PPit is5025VBZbe a5026DTa monopoly5027NNmonopoly ,5028,, has5029VHZhave extracted5030VVNextract higher5031JJRhigh than5032INthan competitive5033JJcompetitive prices5034NNSprice from5035INfrom those5036DTthose particular5037JJparticular people5038NNSpeople ,5039,, the5040DTthe plaintiffs5041NNSplaintiff ,5042,, or5043CCor whether5044INwhether they5045PPthey 've5046VHPhave just5047RBjust had5048VHNhave the5049DTthe easy5050JJeasy life5051NNlife .5052SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5053LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right5054NPRight .5055SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]5056LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Now5057RBnow I5058PPI do5059VVPdo n't5060RBn't think5061VVthink that5062WDTthat 's5063VBZbe the5064DTthe stage5065NNstage we5066PPwe 're5067VBPbe at5068INat in5069INin this5070DTthis case5071NNcase .5072SENT. So5073RBso ,5074,, if5075INif you5076PPyou say5077VVPsay right5078RBright ,5079,, right5080RBright ,5081,, right5082RBright ...5083:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5084LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well5085UHWell ...5086:... [JUSTICE BREYER]5087LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...5088:... then5089RBthen they5090PPthey must5091MDmust win5092VVwin .5093SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5094LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...5095:... no5096RBno ...5097:... so5098RBso what5099WPwhat I5100PPI wanted5101VVDwant to5102TOto say5103VVsay is5104VBZbe that5105IN/thatthat ,5106,, for5107INfor sure5108JJsure ,5109,, the5110DTthe Illinois5111NPIllinois Brick5112NPBrick theory5113NNtheory does5114VVZdo n't5115RBn't apply5116VVapply across5117INacross the5118DTthe board5119NNboard ,5120,, but5121CCbut it5122PPit does5123VVZdo apply5124VVapply when5125WRBwhen somebody5126NNsomebody is5127VBZbe bringing5128VVGbring an5129DTan over-charge5130JJover-charge theory5131NNtheory ,5132,, as5133RBas in5134INin Illinois5135NPIllinois Brick5136NPBrick ,5137,, as5138RBas in5139INin Hanover5140NPHanover Shoe5141NPShoe ,5142,, and5143CCand as5144RBas here5145RBhere .5146SENT. The5147DTthe ...5148:... [JUSTICE BREYER]5149LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Have5150NPHave we5151PPwe had5152VHDhave trial5153NNtrial on5154INon that5155DTthat ?5156SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5157LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Your5158PP$your Honor5159NPHonor ,5160,, where5161WRBwhere you5162PPyou have5163VHPhave that5164DTthat kind5165NNkind of5166INof over-charge5167NNover-charge theory5168NNtheory ,5169,, what5170WPwhat Illinois5171NPIllinois Brick5172NPBrick says5173VVZsay ...5174:... asks5175VVZask is5176VBZbe ,5177,, under5178INunder basic5179JJbasic principles5180NNSprinciple of5181INof proximate5182JJproximate cause5183NNcause ,5184,, is5185VBZbe there5186RBthere some5187DTsome party5188NNparty other5189JJother than5190INthan the5191DTthe monopolist5192NNmonopolist that5193WDTthat 's5194VBZbe standing5195VVGstand in5196INin between5197INbetween the5198DTthe plaintiffs5199NNSplaintiff '5200POS' injury5201NNinjury in5202INin the5203DTthe form5204NNform of5205INof higher5206JJRhigh prices5207NNSprice and5208CCand the5209DTthe monopolist5210NNmonopolist 's5211POS's violation5212NNviolation in5213INin the5214DTthe form5215NNform of5216INof the5217DTthe commission5218NNcommission .5219SENT. And5220CCand whenever5221WRBwhenever the5222DTthe price5223NNprice setter5224NNsetter ,5225,, the5226DTthe ultimate5227JJultimate price5228NNprice setter5229NNsetter ,5230,, is5231VBZbe somebody5232NNsomebody other5233JJother than5234INthan the5235DTthe monopolist5236NNmonopolist ,5237,, it5238PPit 's5239VBZbe never5240RBnever the5241DTthe monopolist5242NNmonopolist 's5243POS's over-charge5244NNover-charge that5245WDTthat is5246VBZbe the5247DTthe direct5248JJdirect cause5249NNcause ...5250:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5251LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But5252CCbut ...5253:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5254LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...5255:... of5256INof the5257DTthe injury5258NNinjury .5259SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5260LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...5261:... but5262CCbut if5263INif the5264DTthe app5265NPApp developer5266NNdeveloper ...5267:... if5268INif Apple5269NPApple bought5270VVDbuy the5271DTthe apps5272NNSapps from5273INfrom the5274DTthe app5275NPApp developer5276NNdeveloper and5277CCand then5278RBthen added5279VVDadd 305280CD@card@ percent5281NNpercent to5282TOto it5283PPit and5284CCand sold5285VVDsell it5286PPit to5287TOto the5288DTthe consumer5289NNconsumer ,5290,, you5291PPyou would5292MDwould agree5293VVagree that5294IN/thatthat a5295DTa claim5296NNclaim could5297MDcould lie5298VVlie there5299RBthere ,5300,, correct5301JJcorrect ?5302SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5303LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Your5304PP$your Honor5305NPHonor ,5306,, I5307PPI want5308VVPwant to5309TOto make5310VVmake sure5311JJsure I5312PPI understand5313VVPunderstand the5314DTthe hypothetical5315JJhypothetical .5316SENT. If5317INif Apple5318NPApple said5319VVDsay ...5320:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5321LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Apple5322NPApple 's5323VBZbe buying5324VVGbuy the5325DTthe app5326NNapp from5327INfrom the5328DTthe app5329NPApp developer5330NNdeveloper for5331INfor a5332DTa price5333NNprice ...5334:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5335LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right5336NPRight .5337SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5338LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...5339:... Apple5340NPApple 's5341VBZbe then5342RBthen adding5343VVGadd 305344CD@card@ percent5345NNpercent to5346TOto that5347DTthat price5348NNprice and5349CCand selling5350VVGsell it5351PPit to5352TOto the5353DTthe consumer5354NNconsumer .5355SENT. The5356DTthe consumer5357NNconsumer alleges5358VVZallege that5359IN/thatthat Apple5360NPApple 's5361VBZbe doing5362VVGdo that5363IN/thatthat as5364INas a5365DTa result5366NNresult of5367INof monopolistic5368JJmonopolistic behavior5369NNbehavior .5370SENT. The5371DTthe claim5372NNclaim lie5373NNlie ?5374SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5375LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes5376NPYes ,5377,, you5378PPyou can5379MDcan sue5380VVsue Apple5381NPApple directly5382RBdirectly ,5383,, but5384CCbut you5385PPyou can5386MDcan 't5387RB't sue5388VVsue Apple5389NPApple if5390INif the5391DTthe ...5392:... if5393INif ...5394:... if5395INif Apple5396NPApple is5397VBZbe n't5398RBn't the5399DTthe price-setting5400NNprice-setting party5401NNparty ,5402,, but5403CCbut the5404DTthe app5405NPApp maker5406NNmaker is5407VBZbe the5408DTthe price-setting5409NNprice-setting party5410NNparty .5411SENT. And5412CCand that5413DTthat 's5414VBZbe why5415WRBwhy ...5416:... may5417MDmay I5418PPI finish5419VVfinish the5420DTthe answer5421NNanswer ,5422,, Your5423PP$your Honor5424NPHonor ?5425SENT? And5426CCand that5427DTthat 's5428VBZbe why5429WRBwhy the5430DTthe key5431NNkey is5432VBZbe who5433WPwho sets5434VVZset the5435DTthe price5436NNprice ,5437,, and5438CCand it5439PPit 's5440VBZbe very5441RBvery hard5442JJhard to5443TOto manipulate5444VVmanipulate our5445PP$our rule5446NNrule because5447INbecause ,5448,, under5449INunder our5450PP$our rule5451NNrule ,5452,, you5453PPyou actually5454RBactually have5455VHhave to5456TOto change5457VVchange the5458DTthe party5459NNparty that5460WDTthat has5461VHZhave the5462DTthe authority5463NNauthority to5464TOto set5465VVset the5466DTthe final5467JJfinal price5468NNprice ,5469,, and5470CCand that5471DTthat 's5472VBZbe a5473DTa fundamental5474JJfundamental change5475NNchange in5476INin the5477DTthe nature5478NNnature of5479INof the5480DTthe transaction5481NNtransaction itself5482PPitself .5483SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5484LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5485VVthank you5486PPyou ,5487,, counsel5488NNcounsel .5489SENT. Mr5490NPMr .5491SENT. Frederick5492NPFrederick .5493SENT.

[MR. FREDERICK]5494LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Thank5495VVthank you5496PPyou ,5497,, Mr5498NPMr .5499SENT. Chief5500NPChief Justice5501NPJustice ,5502,, and5503CCand may5504MDmay it5505PPit please5506VVplease the5507DTthe Court5508NPCourt :5509:: Apple5510NPApple directed5511VVDdirect anticompetitive5512JJanticompetitive restraints5513NNSrestraint at5514INat iPhone5515NNiPhone owners5516NNSowner to5517TOto prevent5518VVprevent them5519PPthem from5520INfrom buying5521VVGbuy apps5522NNSapps anywhere5523RBanywhere other5524JJother than5525INthan Apple5526NPApple 's5527POS's monopoly5528NNmonopoly App5529NPApp Store5530NPStore .5531SENT. As5532INas a5533DTa result5534NNresult ,5535,, iPhone5536NNiPhone owners5537NNSowner paid5538VVDpay Apple5539NPApple more5540JJRmore for5541INfor apps5542NNSapps than5543INthan they5544PPthey would5545MDwould have5546VHhave paid5547VVNpay in5548INin a5549DTa competitive5550JJcompetitive retail5551JJretail market5552NNmarket .5553SENT. Under5554INunder this5555DTthis Court5556NPCourt 's5557POS's precedents5558NNSprecedent ,5559,, iPhone5560NNiPhone owners5561NNSowner have5562VHPhave a5563DTa cause5564NNcause of5565INof action5566NNaction under5567INunder Section5568NPSection 45569CD4 of5570INof the5571DTthe Clayton5572NPClayton Act5573NPAct directly5574RBdirectly against5575INagainst Apple5576NPApple for5577INfor those5578DTthose over-charges5579NNSover-charges .5580SENT. The5581DTthe court5582NNcourt of5583INof appeals5584NNSappeal should5585MDshould be5586VBbe affirmed5587VVNaffirm for5588INfor three5589CDthree reasons5590NNSreason .5591SENT. First5592RBfirst ,5593,, Illinois5594NPIllinois Brick5595NPBrick is5596VBZbe a5597DTa bright-line5598NNbright-line rule5599NNrule that5600IN/thatthat Respondents5601NNSrespondent easily5602RBeasily satisfy5603VVsatisfy .5604SENT. Second5605RBsecond ,5606,, Apple5607NPApple directed5608VVDdirect its5609PP$its monopoly5610NNmonopoly abuses5611NNSabuse at5612INat Respondents5613NNSrespondent .5614SENT. So5615RBso it5616PPit 's5617VBZbe appropriate5618JJappropriate that5619IN/thatthat Respondents5620NNSrespondent can5621MDcan sue5622VVsue Apple5623NPApple for5624INfor their5625PP$their damages5626NNSdamage as5627INas a5628DTa result5629NNresult of5630INof those5631DTthose violations5632NNSviolation .5633SENT. And5634CCand ,5635,, third5636JJthird ,5637,, Apple5638NPApple seeks5639VVZseek to5640TOto expand5641VVexpand and5642CCand modify5643VVmodify the5644DTthe bright-line5645NNbright-line rule5646NNrule of5647INof Illinois5648NPIllinois Brick5649NPBrick to5650TOto deny5651VVdeny indisputably5652RBindisputably direct5653JJdirect purchasers5654NNSpurchaser an5655DTan antitrust5656JJantitrust remedy5657NNremedy and5658CCand to5659TOto change5660VVchange the5661DTthe rule5662NNrule into5663INinto a5664DTa standardless5665JJstandardless inquiry5666NNinquiry that5667WDTthat will5668MDwill be5669VBbe hard5670JJhard to5671TOto apply5672VVapply at5673INat the5674DTthe pleadings5675NNSpleading stage5676NNstage .5677SENT. Now5678RBnow ,5679,, if5680INif I5681PPI could5682MDcould return5683VVreturn to5684TOto the5685DTthe first5686JJfirst point5687NNpoint ,5688,, the5689DTthe direct5690JJdirect purchaser5691NNpurchaser rule5692NNrule is5693VBZbe a5694DTa bright-line5695NNbright-line rule5696NNrule .5697SENT. This5698DTthis Court5699NPCourt said5700VVDsay so5701RBso in5702INin Illinois5703NPIllinois Brick5704NPBrick and5705CCand ,5706,, importantly5707RBimportantly ,5708,, a5709DTa case5710NNcase that5711WDTthat has5712VHZhave not5713RBnot yet5714RByet been5715VBNbe discussed5716VVNdiscuss today5717NNtoday ,5718,, in5719INin UtiliCorp5720NPUtiliCorp ,5721,, in5722INin which5723WDTwhich the5724DTthe Court5725NPCourt said5726VVDsay Illinois5727NPIllinois Brick5728NPBrick is5729VBZbe a5730DTa bright-line5731NNbright-line rule5732NNrule for5733INfor direct5734JJdirect purchasers5735NNSpurchaser ,5736,, notwithstanding5737INnotwithstanding the5738DTthe economics5739NNSeconomics that5740WDTthat go5741VVPgo into5742INinto that5743DTthat .5744SENT. UtiliCorp5745NPUtiliCorp was5746VBDbe a5747DTa case5748NNcase that5749WDTthat protected5750VVDprotect the5751DTthe defendants5752NNSdefendant ,5753,, who5754WPwho were5755VBDbe asserting5756VVGassert that5757DTthat ...5758:... who5759WPwho ...5760:... who5761WPwho were5762VBDbe asserting5763VVGassert that5764IN/thatthat the5765DTthe ...5766:... that5767IN/thatthat there5768EXthere was5769VBDbe a5770DTa break5771NNbreak in5772INin the5773DTthe link5774NNlink of5775INof the5776DTthe chain5777NNchain .5778SENT. This5779DTthis case5780NNcase is5781VBZbe really5782RBreally the5783DTthe flip5784JJflip side5785NNside of5786INof that5787WDTthat to5788TOto protect5789VVprotect plaintiffs5790NNSplaintiff who5791WPwho directly5792RBdirectly purchased5793VVDpurchase from5794INfrom the5795DTthe alleged5796JJalleged antitrust5797JJantitrust violator5798NNviolator and5799CCand are5800VBPbe claiming5801VVGclaim damages5802NNSdamage as5803INas a5804DTa result5805NNresult of5806INof that5807DTthat antitrust5808JJantitrust violation5809NNviolation .5810SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5811LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] There's5812NPThere's ...5813:... there5814EXthere 's5815VBZbe one5816CDone antitrust5817JJantitrust violation5818NNviolation under5819INunder your5820PP$your theory5821NNtheory ,5822,, which5823WDTwhich is5824VBZbe the5825DTthe increase5826NNincrease ,5827,, the5828DTthe 305829CD@card@ percent5830NNpercent increase5831NNincrease that5832IN/thatthat Apple5833NPApple imposes5834VVZimpose when5835WRBwhen it5836PPit ...5837:... when5838WRBwhen it5839PPit 's5840VBZbe ...5841:... when5842WRBwhen ,5843,, as5844INas you5845PPyou put5846VVPput it5847PPit ,5848,, it5849PPit sells5850VVZsell the5851DTthe apps5852NNSapps ?5853SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]5854LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Wrong5855JJwrong .5856SENT. And5857CCand this5858DTthis is5859VBZbe very5860RBvery important5861JJimportant for5862INfor the5863DTthe Court5864NPCourt to5865TOto understand5866VVunderstand .5867SENT. The5868DTthe antitrust5869JJantitrust violation5870NNviolation here5871RBhere is5872VBZbe the5873DTthe monopoly5874NNmonopoly App5875NPApp Store5876NPStore .5877SENT. Consumers5878NNSconsumer cannot5879MDcan buy5880VVbuy an5881DTan app5882NNapp anywhere5883RBanywhere other5884JJother than5885INthan Apple5886NPApple 's5887POS's 1005888CD@card@ percent-owned5889JJpercent-owned monopoly5890NNmonopoly App5891NPApp Store5892NPStore .5893SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5894LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] But5895CCbut ,5896,, when5897WRBwhen it5898PPit comes5899VVZcome to5900TOto the5901DTthe ...5902:... the5903DTthe 305904CD@card@ percent5905NNpercent increase5906NNincrease ,5907,, you5908PPyou 're5909VBPbe ...5910:... you5911PPyou 're5912VBPbe obviously5913RBobviously saying5914VVGsay the5915DTthe purchasers5916NNSpurchaser ,5917,, again5918RBagain ,5919,, under5920INunder your5921PP$your theory5922NNtheory of5923INof the5924DTthe apps5925NNSapps ,5926,, are5927VBPbe harmed5928VVNharm by5929INby that5930DTthat and5931CCand recover5932VVrecover ...5933:... can5934MDcan recover5935VVrecover damages5936NNSdamage for5937INfor that5938DTthat ,5939,, and5940CCand also5941RBalso that5942IN/thatthat the5943DTthe developers5944NNSdeveloper are5945VBPbe harmed5946VVNharm by5947INby that5948DTthat and5949CCand they5950PPthey can5951MDcan recover5952VVrecover damages5953NNSdamage for5954INfor it5955PPit as5956RBas well5957RBwell .5958SENT. In5959INin other5960JJother words5961NNSword ,5962,, to5963TOto the5964DTthe extent5965NNextent it5966PPit might5967MDmight be5968VBbe said5969VVNsay that5970IN/thatthat Apple5971NPApple is5972VBZbe a5973DTa two-sided5974JJtwo-sided market5975NNmarket ,5976,, they5977PPthey 're5978VBPbe ...5979:... they5980PPthey 're5981VBPbe subject5982JJsubject to5983TOto suit5984VVsuit on5985INon both5986DTboth sides5987NNSside of5988INof the5989DTthe market5990NNmarket for5991INfor a5992DTa single5993JJsingle antitrust5994JJantitrust price5995NNprice increase5996NNincrease that5997IN/thatthat they5998PPthey 're5999VBPbe alleged6000VVNallege to6001TOto have6002VHhave imposed6003VVNimpose .6004SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]6005LOC[MR. FREDERICK] So6006RBso ,6007,, Mr6008NPMr .6009SENT. Chief6010NPChief Justice6011NPJustice ,6012,, I6013PPI think6014VVPthink that6015IN/thatthat your6016PP$your question6017NNquestion kind6018NNkind of6019INof gets6020VVZget to6021TOto the6022DTthe core6023NNcore of6024INof a6025DTa lot6026NNlot of6027INof the6028DTthe confusion6029NNconfusion here6030RBhere because6031RBbecause ,6032,, by6033INby having6034VHGhave an6035DTan wholly-owned6036VVNwholly-own monopoly6037NNmonopoly App6038NPApp Store6039NPStore ,6040,, Apple6041NPApple is6042VBZbe able6043JJable to6044TOto distort6045VVdistort the6046DTthe market6047NNmarket at6048INat the6049DTthe supply6050NNsupply chain6051NNchain and6052CCand at6053INat the6054DTthe retail6055JJretail chain6056NNchain for6057INfor consumers6058NNSconsumer .6059SENT. We6060PPwe ,6061,, representing6062VVGrepresent consumer6063NNconsumer iPhone6064NNiPhone owners6065NNSowner ,6066,, are6067VBPbe suing6068VVGsue only6069RBonly for6070INfor the6071DTthe damages6072NNSdamage that6073WDTthat we6074PPwe incur6075VVPincur .6076SENT. That6077DTthat is6078VBZbe the6079DTthe higher6080JJRhigh than6081INthan what6082WPwhat a6083DTa competitive6084JJcompetitive market6085NNmarket price6086NNprice would6087MDwould be6088VBbe for6089INfor apps6090NNSapps .6091SENT. Our6092PP$our measure6093NNmeasure of6094INof damages6095NNSdamage is6096VBZbe not6097RBnot necessarily6098RBnecessarily the6099DTthe 306100CD@card@ percent6101NNpercent .6102SENT. The6103DTthe 306104CD@card@ percent6105NNpercent is6106VBZbe simply6107RBsimply proof6108JJproof that6109IN/thatthat Apple6110NPApple is6111VBZbe acting6112VVGact as6113INas a6114DTa monopolist6115NNmonopolist because6116INbecause it6117PPit extracts6118VVZextract ...6119:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6120LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] No6121UHNo ,6122,, no6123UHno ,6124,, I6125PPI understand6126VVPunderstand ...6127:... I6128PPI understand6129VVPunderstand your6130PP$your claim6131NNclaim on6132INon your6133PP$your side6134NNside of6135INof the6136DTthe market6137NNmarket .6138SENT. But6139CCbut you6140PPyou do6141VVPdo think6142VVthink that6143IN/thatthat the6144DTthe developers6145NNSdeveloper have6146VHPhave a6147DTa claim6148NNclaim as6149INas well6150RBwell ,6151,, do6152VVPdo n't6153RBn't you6154PPyou ?6155SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]6156LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well6157UHwell ,6158,, I6159PPI have6160VHPhave no6161DTno grief6162NNgrief ...6163:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6164LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] It6165PPit 's6166VBZbe the6167DTthe same6168JJsame ?6169SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]6170LOC[MR. FREDERICK] I6171PPI have6172VHPhave ...6173:... it6174PPit 's6175VBZbe not6176RBnot the6177DTthe same6178JJsame .6179SENT. It6180PPit is6181VBZbe a6182DTa different6183JJdifferent claim6184NNclaim .6185SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6186LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] For6187INfor ...6188:... for6189INfor the6190DTthe same6191JJsame price6192NNprice increase6193NNincrease ...6194:... [MR. FREDERICK]6195LOC[MR. FREDERICK] No6196NPNo ...6197:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6198LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...6199:... for6200INfor the6201DTthe same6202JJsame ...6203:... [MR. FREDERICK]6204LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...6205:... I6206PPI disagree6207VVPdisagree with6208INwith that6209DTthat ,6210,, Mr6211NPMr .6212SENT. Chief6213NPChief Justice6214NPJustice .6215SENT. Apple6216NPApple 's6217POS's supplier6218NNsupplier of6219INof the6220DTthe apps6221NNSapps ,6222,, if6223INif they6224PPthey have6225VHPhave a6226DTa claim6227NNclaim ,6228,, it6229PPit is6230VBZbe that6231IN/thatthat Apple6232NPApple has6233VHZhave distorted6234VVNdistort the6235DTthe market6236NNmarket for6237INfor the6238DTthe supply6239NNsupply of6240INof apps6241NNSapps in6242INin a6243DTa way6244NNway that6245WDTthat hurts6246VVZhurt app6247NPApp developers6248NNSdeveloper '6249POS' profits6250NNSprofit .6251SENT. Their6252PP$their argument6253NNargument would6254MDwould be6255VBbe ,6256,, if6257INif we6258PPwe were6259VBDbe n't6260RBn't suffering6261VVGsuffer under6262INunder the6263DTthe one6264CDone monopoly6265NNmonopoly store6266NNstore constraint6267NNconstraint ,6268,, we6269PPwe might6270MDmight be6271VBbe able6272JJable to6273TOto charge6274VVcharge a6275DTa different6276JJdifferent price6277NNprice lower6278JJRlow than6279INthan 996280CD@card@ cents6281NNScent and6282CCand be6283VBbe able6284JJable to6285TOto get6286VVget a6287DTa direct6288JJdirect purchase6289NNpurchase from6290INfrom an6291DTan iPhone6292JJiPhone Apple6293NPApple owner6294NNowner .6295SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6296LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well6297UHwell ,6298,, I6299PPI think6300VVPthink you6301PPyou 're6302VBPbe just6303RBjust saying6304VVGsay that6305IN/thatthat the6306DTthe measure6307NNmeasure of6308INof damages6309NNSdamage would6310MDwould be6311VBbe different6312JJdifferent between6313INbetween the6314DTthe two6315CDtwo sides6316NNSside of6317INof the6318DTthe market6319NNmarket ?6320SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]6321LOC[MR. FREDERICK] And6322CCand ...6323:... but6324CCbut they6325PPthey would6326MDwould be6327VBbe different6328JJdifferent damages6329NNSdamage .6330SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6331LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] In6332INin other6333JJother words6334NNSword ,6335,, you6336PPyou are6337VBPbe saying6338VVGsay the6339DTthe consumer6340NNconsumer says6341VVZsay ,6342,, I6343PPI 'm6344VBPbe paying6345VVGpay a6346DTa higher6347JJRhigh price6348NNprice for6349INfor the6350DTthe product6351NNproduct .6352SENT. It6353PPit might6354MDmight be6355VBbe the6356DTthe entire6357JJentire 306358CD@card@ percent6359NNpercent commission6360NNcommission ,6361,, it6362PPit might6363MDmight be6364VBbe some6365DTsome portion6366NNportion of6367INof the6368DTthe 306369CD@card@ percent6370NNpercent commission6371NNcommission ,6372,, that6373WDTthat 's6374VBZbe super-competitive6375JJsuper-competitive ,6376,, but6377CCbut I6378PPI 'm6379VBPbe paying6380VVGpay a6381DTa higher6382JJRhigh price6383NNprice for6384INfor the6385DTthe product6386NNproduct .6387SENT. And6388CCand the6389DTthe app6390NPApp developer6391NNdeveloper says6392VVZsay :6393:: Well6394UHWell ,6395,, I6396PPI do6397VVPdo n't6398RBn't ...6399:... you6400PPyou know6401VVPknow ,6402,, that6403WDTthat 's6404VBZbe irrelevant6405JJirrelevant to6406TOto me6407PPme .6408SENT. I6409PPI do6410VVPdo n't6411RBn't have6412VHhave to6413TOto buy6414VVbuy the6415DTthe product6416NNproduct .6417SENT. What6418WPWhat 's6419VBZbe relevant6420JJrelevant to6421TOto me6422PPme is6423VBZbe fewer6424JJRfew people6425NNSpeople are6426VBPbe buying6427VVGbuy my6428PP$my apps6429NNSapps .6430SENT. And6431CCand that6432DTthat represents6433VVZrepresent some6434DTsome amount6435NNamount of6436INof lost6437JJlost profits6438NNSprofit .6439SENT. But6440CCbut those6441DTthose two6442CDtwo things6443NNSthing are6444VBPbe not6445RBnot ...6446:... I6447PPI mean6448VVPmean ,6449,, it6450PPit is6451VBZbe true6452JJtrue that6453IN/thatthat two6454CDtwo people6455NNSpeople are6456VBPbe being6457VBGbe able6458JJable to6459TOto sue6460VVsue because6461INbecause Apple6462NPApple is6463VBZbe ...6464:... is6465VBZbe transacting6466VVGtransact with6467INwith each6468DTeach of6469INof these6470DTthese people6471NNSpeople and6472CCand each6473DTeach of6474INof them6475PPthem has6476VHZhave a6477DTa gripe6478NNgripe against6479INagainst what6480WPwhat ...6481:... the6482DTthe way6483NNway Apple6484NPApple has6485VHZhave structured6486VVNstructure the6487DTthe market6488NNmarket .6489SENT. But6490CCbut the6491DTthe damages6492NNSdamage are6493VBPbe entirely6494RBentirely different6495JJdifferent .6496SENT. One6497PPone is6498VBZbe a6499DTa measure6500NNmeasure of6501INof lost6502JJlost profits6503NNSprofit ,6504,, which6505WDTwhich may6506MDmay or6507CCor may6508MDmay not6509RBnot exist6510VVexist .6511SENT. The6512DTthe other6513JJother is6514VBZbe I6515PPI 'm6516VBPbe paying6517VVGpay too6518RBtoo much6519RBmuch .6520SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]6521LOC[MR. FREDERICK] That6522DTthat 's6523VBZbe correct6524JJcorrect .6525SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6526LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well6527UHWell ,6528,, but6529RBbut ,6530,, Mister6531NPMister ...6532:... [JUSTICE ALITO]6533LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] That6534DTthat 's6535VBZbe an6536DTan interesting6537JJinteresting theory6538NNtheory ,6539,, but6540CCbut is6541VBZbe that6542IN/thatthat the6543DTthe theory6544NNtheory ...6545:... is6546VBZbe that6547IN/thatthat your6548PP$your claim6549NNclaim ?6550SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]6551LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Yes6552NPYes .6553SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]6554LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I6555PPI thought6556VVDthink this6557DTthis case6558NNcase was6559VBDbe all6560RBall about6561INabout the6562DTthe 306563CD@card@ percent6564NNpercent .6565SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]6566LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well6567UHWell ,6568,, the6569DTthe other6570JJother side6571NNside has6572VHZhave been6573VBNbe trying6574VVGtry ,6575,, Justice6576NPJustice Alito6577NPAlito ,6578,, to6579TOto make6580VVmake the6581DTthe case6582NNcase all6583RBall about6584INabout the6585DTthe 306586CD@card@ percent6587NNpercent .6588SENT. But6589CCbut if6590INif you6591PPyou read6592VVPread the6593DTthe ...6594:... [JUSTICE ALITO]6595LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So6596INso the6597DTthe 306598CD@card@ percent6599NNpercent has6600VHZhave nothing6601NNnothing to6602TOto do6603VVdo with6604INwith this6605DTthis ?6606SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]6607LOC[MR. FREDERICK] The6608NPThe ...6609:... what6610WPwhat the6611DTthe percent6612NNpercent is6613VBZbe ,6614,, is6615VBZbe an6616DTan allegation6617NNallegation that6618IN/thatthat Apple6619NPApple is6620VBZbe monopolizing6621VVGmonopolize the6622DTthe sale6623NNsale of6624INof apps6625NNSapps .6626SENT. And6627CCand we6628PPwe know6629VVPknow that6630IN/thatthat because6631INbecause they6632PPthey can6633MDcan extract6634VVextract 306635CD@card@ percent6636NNpercent on6637INon every6638DTevery single6639JJsingle sale6640NNsale ,6641,, which6642WDTwhich only6643RBonly a6644DTa monopolist6645NNmonopolist could6646MDcould do6647VVdo .6648SENT. The6649DTthe 306650CD@card@ percent6651NNpercent is6652VBZbe not6653RBnot a6654DTa measure6655NNmeasure of6656INof damages6657NNSdamage .6658SENT. I6659PPI 'm6660VBPbe not6661RBnot aware6662JJaware of6663INof any6664DTany case6665NNcase from6666INfrom this6667DTthis Court6668NPCourt that6669WDTthat says6670VVZsay you6671PPyou have6672VHhave to6673TOto plead6674VVplead antitrust6675JJantitrust damages6676NNSdamage with6677INwith particularity6678NNparticularity .6679SENT. But6680CCbut the6681DTthe ...6682:... because6683INbecause of6684INof the6685DTthe ability6686NNability to6687TOto extract6688VVextract a6689DTa monopoly6690NNmonopoly rent6691NNrent ,6692,, we6693PPwe can6694MDcan say6695VVsay in6696INin good6697JJgood faith6698NNfaith that6699IN/thatthat they6700PPthey ...6701:... we6702PPwe are6703VBPbe paying6704VVGpay more6705RBRmore than6706INthan we6707PPwe would6708MDwould pay6709VVpay than6710INthan if6711INif a6712DTa competitive6713JJcompetitive market6714NNmarket existed6715VVDexist .6716SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6717LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Mr6718NPMr .6719SENT. Frederick6720NPFrederick ,6721,, I6722PPI think6723VVPthink you6724PPyou 'd6725MDwould agree6726VVagree that6727IN/thatthat there6728EXthere can6729MDcan only6730RBonly be6731VBbe one6732CDone monopoly6733NNmonopoly rent6734NNrent .6735SENT. And6736CCand then6737RBthen the6738DTthe question6739NNquestion becomes6740VVZbecome ,6741,, who6742WPwho 's6743VBZbe paying6744VVGpay it6745PPit ?6746SENT? And6747CCand it6748PPit might6749MDmight be6750VBbe spread6751VVNspread partially6752RBpartially between6753INbetween direct6754JJdirect purchasers6755NNSpurchaser and6756CCand indirect6757JJindirect purchasers6758NNSpurchaser .6759SENT. It6760PPit might6761MDmight be6762VBbe partially6763RBpartially spread6764VVNspread between6765INbetween the6766DTthe app6767NPApp makers6768NNSmaker and6769CCand the6770DTthe purchasers6771NNSpurchaser of6772INof apps6773NNSapps .6774SENT. And6775CCand disaggregating6776VVGdisaggregating that6777DTthat is6778VBZbe the6779DTthe question6780NNquestion that6781IN/thatthat we6782PPwe 've6783VHPhave been6784VBNbe wrestling6785VVGwrestle with6786INwith here6787RBhere .6788SENT. I6789PPI guess6790VVPguess here6791RBhere is6792VBZbe where6793WRBwhere I6794PPI 'm6795VBPbe stuck6796VVNstick and6797CCand need6798VVPneed your6799PP$your help6800NNhelp .6801SENT. You6802PPyou say6803VVPsay that6804IN/thatthat Illinois6805NPIllinois Brick6806NPBrick is6807VBZbe a6808DTa bright-line6809NNbright-line rule6810NNrule premised6811VVNpremise on6812INon the6813DTthe existence6814NNexistence of6815INof a6816DTa contractual6817JJcontractual relationship6818NNrelationship between6819INbetween the6820DTthe buyer6821NNbuyer ...6822:... the6823DTthe ultimate6824JJultimate purchaser6825NNpurchaser and6826CCand the6827DTthe intermediate6828JJintermediate seller6829NNseller ,6830,, and6831CCand that6832IN/thatthat there6833EXthere has6834VHZhave to6835TOto be6836VBbe that6837DTthat kind6838NNkind of6839INof relationship6840NNrelationship ,6841,, rather6842RBrather than6843INthan a6844DTa sales6845NNSsale agency6846NNagency relationship6847NNrelationship like6848INlike we6849PPwe have6850VHPhave here6851RBhere .6852SENT. But6853CCbut antitrust6854JJantitrust does6855NNSdoe n't6856RBn't usually6857RBusually depend6858VVdepend upon6859INupon such6860JJsuch contractual6861JJcontractual formalities6862NNSformality .6863SENT. It6864PPit usually6865RBusually depends6866VVZdepend upon6867INupon the6868DTthe underlying6869VVGunderlie economics6870NNSeconomics .6871SENT. And6872CCand I6873PPI have6874VHPhave a6875DTa hard6876JJhard time6877NNtime distinguishing6878VVGdistinguish this6879DTthis case6880NNcase from6881INfrom Illinois6882NPIllinois Brick6883NPBrick in6884INin the6885DTthe sense6886NNsense of6887INof ...6888:... in6889INin the6890DTthe question6891NNquestion of6892INof economic6893JJeconomic pass-through6894JJpass-through and6895CCand the6896DTthe problems6897NNSproblem that6898IN/thatthat it6899PPit presents6900VVZpresent ,6901,, the6902DTthe possibility6903NNpossibility that6904IN/thatthat the6905DTthe intermediate6906JJintermediate purchaser6907NNpurchaser may6908MDmay absorb6909VVabsorb the6910DTthe monopoly6911NNmonopoly rent6912NNrent and6913CCand not6914RBnot pass6915VVpass it6916PPit along6917RPalong .6918SENT. Now6919RBnow that6920IN/thatthat raises6921NNSraise for6922INfor me6923PPme the6924DTthe question6925NNquestion ,6926,, further6927JJRfurther question6928NNquestion ,6929,, and6930CCand I6931PPI ...6932:... I6933PPI ...6934:... I6935PPI 'll6936MDwill wind6937VVwind it6938PPit up6939RPup quickly6940RBquickly ,6941,, I6942PPI promise6943VVPpromise ,6944,, whether6945INwhether Illinois6946NPIllinois Brick6947NPBrick is6948VBZbe correct6949JJcorrect .6950SENT. All6951DTall right6952NNright .6953SENT. And6954CCand you6955PPyou have6956VHPhave an6957DTan amicus6958NNamicus that6959WDTthat says6960VVZsay it6961PPit 's6962VBZbe not6963RBnot ,6964,, but6965CCbut you6966PPyou do6967VVPdo n't6968RBn't make6969VVmake that6970DTthat argument6971NNargument .6972SENT. I6973PPI 'm6974VBPbe really6975RBreally curious6976JJcurious why6977NNwhy ...6978:... [MR. FREDERICK]6979LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Because6980INbecause ...6981:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6982LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...6983:... the6984DTthe plaintiffs6985NNSplaintiff '6986POS' bar6987NNbar is6988VBZbe not6989RBnot making6990VVGmake that6991DTthat argument6992NNargument before6993INbefore this6994DTthis Court6995NPCourt .6996SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]6997LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Because6998INbecause ...6999:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7000LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] So7001RBso there7002RBthere ...7003:... there7004EXthere 's7005VBZbe a7006DTa whole7007NNwhole ...7008:... a7009DTa whole7010JJwhole bunch7011NNbunch of7012INof things7013NNSthing for7014INfor you7015PPyou to7016TOto chew7017VVchew on7018RPon .7019SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7020LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Okay7021NPOkay .7022SENT. I7023PPI 'll7024MDwill try7025VVtry to7026TOto chew7027VVchew on7028INon them7029PPthem succinctly7030RBsuccinctly ,7031,, Your7032PP$your Honor7033NPHonor .7034SENT. We7035PPwe have7036VHPhave n't7037RBn't asked7038VVNask for7039INfor Illinois7040NPIllinois Brick7041NPBrick to7042TOto be7043VBbe overruled7044VVNoverrule because7045INbecause we7046PPwe plainly7047RBplainly meet7048VVmeet the7049DTthe bright-line7050NNbright-line rule7051NNrule .7052SENT. We7053PPwe paid7054VVDpay Apple7055NPApple and7056CCand Apple7057NPApple was7058VBDbe ...7059:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7060LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Say7061VVPsay I7062PPI do7063VVPdo n't7064RBn't ...7065:... say7066VVPsay I7067PPI do7068VVPdo n't7069RBn't buy7070VVbuy the7071DTthe formalistic7072JJformalistic contractual7073JJcontractual ...7074:... it7075PPit seems7076VVZseem to7077TOto me7078PPme an7079DTan argument7080NNargument in7081INin ...7082:... in7083INin ...7084:... in7085INin the7086DTthe law7087NNlaw of7088INof contracts7089NNScontract rather7090RBrather than7091INthan the7092DTthe law7093NNlaw of7094INof antitrust7095JJantitrust .7096SENT. So7097RBso help7098VVhelp me7099PPme out7100RPout with7101INwith economics7102NNSeconomics .7103SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7104LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Economics7105NPEconomics ,7106,, we7107PPwe paid7108VVDpay money7109NNmoney .7110SENT. Apple7111NPApple never7112RBnever shared7113VVDshare that7114DTthat money7115NNmoney with7116INwith any7117DTany middleman7118NNmiddleman .7119SENT. Illinois7120NPIllinois Brick7121NPBrick is7122VBZbe a7123DTa case7124NNcase about7125INabout a7126DTa middleman7127NNmiddleman .7128SENT. There7129EXthere 's7130VBZbe no7131DTno middleman7132NNmiddleman here7133RBhere .7134SENT. We7135PPwe paid7136VVDpay the7137DTthe money7138NNmoney .7139SENT. Apple7140NPApple kept7141VVDkeep percent7142NNpercent of7143INof it7144PPit ...7145:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7146LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Again7147RBagain ...7148:... again7149RBagain ,7150,, that7151WDTthat ...7152:... [MR. FREDERICK]7153LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...7154:... before7155INbefore sending7156VVGsend percent7157NNpercent on7158INon .7159SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7160LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...7161:... that7162WDTthat 's7163VBZbe based7164VVNbase on7165INon the7166DTthe form7167NNform of7168INof the7169DTthe relationship7170NNrelationship .7171SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7172LOC[MR. FREDERICK] But7173CCbut that7174DTthat ...7175:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7176LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Talk7177NNtalk to7178TOto me7179PPme about7180INabout the7181DTthe possibility7182NNpossibility ,7183,, the7184DTthe problem7185NNproblem that7186IN/thatthat the7187DTthe app7188NPApp producer7189NNproducer might7190MDmight absorb7191VVabsorb the7192DTthe monopoly7193NNmonopoly rent7194NNrent .7195SENT. That7196DTthat 's7197VBZbe the7198DTthe economic7199JJeconomic problem7200NNproblem that7201IN/thatthat I7202PPI 'm7203VBPbe stuck7204VVNstick with7205INwith .7206SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7207LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Okay7208NPOkay .7209SENT. If7210INif I7211PPI could7212MDcould try7213VVtry to7214TOto answer7215VVanswer your7216PP$your question7217NNquestion with7218INwith a7219DTa hypothetical7220JJhypothetical ,7221,, and7222CCand if7223INif the7224DTthe Court7225NPCourt would7226MDwould indulge7227VVindulge me7228PPme ,7229,, suppose7230VVPsuppose in7231INin a7232DTa competitive7233JJcompetitive market7234NNmarket the7235DTthe price7236NNprice for7237INfor an7238DTan app7239NPApp was7240VBDbe 907241CD@card@ cents7242NNScent ,7243,, not7244RBnot 997245CD@card@ cents7246NNScent ,7247,, as7248INas Apple7249NPApple is7250VBZbe charging7251VVGcharge .7252SENT. It7253PPit 's7254VBZbe 907255CD@card@ cents7256NNScent .7257SENT. We7258PPwe would7259MDwould all7260RBall agree7261VVagree ,7262,, I7263PPI think7264VVPthink ,7265,, that7266IN/thatthat the7267DTthe consumer7268NNconsumer can7269MDcan sue7270VVsue for7271INfor the7272DTthe nine7273CDnine cent7274NNcent differential7275NNdifferential between7276INbetween the7277DTthe monopoly7278NNmonopoly price7279NNprice ...7280:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7281LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I7282PPI understand7283VVPunderstand the7284DTthe 997285CD@card@ cent7286NNcent argument7287NNargument .7288SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7289LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Okay7290NPOkay .7291SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7292LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Let7293NPLet 's7294POS's put7295NNput that7296IN/thatthat aside7297RBaside .7298SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7299LOC[MR. FREDERICK] All7300DTall right7301NNright .7302SENT. Now7303RBnow that7304IN/thatthat we7305PPwe 've7306VHPhave got7307VVNget that7308IN/thatthat aside7309RBaside ,7310,, let7311VVPlet 's7312POS's look7313NNlook at7314INat it7315PPit from7316INfrom the7317DTthe developer7318NNdeveloper 's7319POS's perspective7320NNperspective .7321SENT. If7322INif they7323PPthey had7324VHDhave a7325DTa claim7326NNclaim ...7327:... if7328INif they7329PPthey had7330VHDhave a7331DTa claim7332NNclaim ...7333:... and7334CCand I7335PPI 'm7336VBPbe not7337RBnot saying7338VVGsay that7339IN/thatthat they7340PPthey do7341VVPdo ...7342:... but7343CCbut if7344INif they7345PPthey had7346VHDhave a7347DTa claim7348NNclaim ,7349,, they7350PPthey would7351MDwould need7352VVneed to7353TOto show7354VVshow the7355DTthe difference7356NNdifference between7357INbetween the7358DTthe profits7359NNSprofit that7360IN/thatthat they7361PPthey would7362MDwould have7363VHhave achieved7364VVNachieve in7365INin the7366DTthe monopoly7367NNmonopoly App7368NPApp Store7369NPStore versus7370CCversus the7371DTthe profits7372NNSprofit they7373PPthey would7374MDwould have7375VHhave achieved7376VVNachieve at7377INat a7378DTa competitive7379JJcompetitive market7380NNmarket price7381NNprice .7382SENT. That7383DTthat depends7384VVZdepend on7385INon three7386CDthree factors7387NNSfactor ,7388,, okay7389JJokay ?7390SENT? One7391PPone is7392VBZbe the7393DTthe difference7394NNdifference in7395INin sales7396NNSsale that7397IN/thatthat they7398PPthey would7399MDwould achieve7400VVachieve between7401INbetween 997402CD@card@ cents7403NNScent and7404CCand 997405CD@card@ ...7406:... 907407CD@card@ cents7408NNScent .7409SENT. The7410DTthe second7411NNsecond is7412VBZbe how7413WRBhow their7414PP$their sales7415NNSsale differences7416NNSdifference would7417MDwould affect7418VVaffect their7419PP$their revenue7420NNrevenue .7421SENT. And7422CCand the7423DTthe third7424NNthird is7425VBZbe whether7426INwhether the7427DTthe commission7428NNcommission was7429VBDbe 307430CD@card@ percent7431NNpercent in7432INin a7433DTa competitive7434JJcompetitive market7435NNmarket .7436SENT. Okay7437JJokay ?7438SENT? [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7439LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Uh-huh7440NPUh-huh .7441SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7442LOC[MR. FREDERICK] So7443RBso ,7444,, if7445INif you7446PPyou take7447VVPtake my7448PP$my hypothetical7449JJhypothetical ,7450,, the7451DTthe damages7452NNSdamage for7453INfor the7454DTthe developer7455NNdeveloper ,7456,, there7457EXthere are7458VBPbe three7459CDthree possibilities7460NNSpossibility .7461SENT. One7462CDOne is7463VBZbe that7464IN/thatthat it7465PPit 's7466VBZbe zero7467CDzero .7468SENT. If7469INif the7470DTthe commission7471NNcommission went7472VVDgo to7473TOto percent7474NNpercent in7475INin a7476DTa competitive7477JJcompetitive market7478NNmarket ,7479,, the7480DTthe developer7481NNdeveloper takes7482VVZtake home7483RBhome 707484CD@card@ cents7485NNScent just7486RBjust as7487INas it7488PPit does7489VVZdo with7490INwith Apple7491NPApple 's7492POS's 307493CD@card@ percent7494NNpercent in7495INin a7496DTa 997497CD@card@ cent7498NNcent monopoly7499NNmonopoly market7500NNmarket .7501SENT. At7502INat 227503CD@card@ percent7504NNpercent commission7505NNcommission ,7506,, the7507DTthe developer7508NNdeveloper has7509VHZhave zero7510CDzero damages7511NNSdamage .7512SENT. It7513PPit ...7514:... it7515PPit ...7516:... the7517DTthe developer7518NNdeveloper would7519MDwould have7520VHhave positive7521JJpositive damages7522NNSdamage if7523INif the7524DTthe commission7525NNcommission were7526VBDbe zero7527CDzero because7528INbecause then7529RBthen the7530DTthe app7531NPApp developer7532NNdeveloper sustains7533VVZsustain damages7534NNSdamage of7535INof 207536CD@card@ cents7537NNScent .7538SENT. The7539DTthe developer7540NNdeveloper would7541MDwould make7542VVmake the7543DTthe 907544CD@card@ cents7545NNScent in7546INin the7547DTthe competitive7548JJcompetitive market7549NNmarket instead7550RBinstead of7551INof the7552DTthe cents7553NNScent that7554IN/thatthat Apple7555NPApple is7556VBZbe now7557RBnow passing7558VVGpass along7559RPalong by7560INby virtue7561NNvirtue of7562INof the7563DTthe monopoly7564NNmonopoly market7565NNmarket .7566SENT. The7567DTthe damages7568NNSdamage would7569MDwould be7570VBbe negative7571JJnegative ,7572,, though7573RBthough ,7574,, if7575INif ,7576,, in7577INin a7578DTa competitive7579JJcompetitive market7580NNmarket ,7581,, the7582DTthe commission7583NNcommission stayed7584VVDstay at7585INat 307586CD@card@ percent7587NNpercent because7588INbecause ,7589,, there7590RBthere ,7591,, the7592DTthe benefits7593NNSbenefit that7594WDTthat would7595MDwould achieve7596VVachieve by7597INby the7598DTthe monopoly7599NNmonopoly ...7600:... price7601NNprice of7602INof 997603CD@card@ cents7604NNScent give7605VVPgive the7606DTthe developer7607NNdeveloper an7608DTan extra7609JJextra eight7610CDeight cents7611NNScent per7612INper transaction7613NNtransaction .7614SENT. So7615RBso ,7616,, in7617INin that7618DTthat way7619NNway ,7620,, Mr7621NPMr .7622SENT. Chief7623NPChief Justice7624NPJustice ,7625,, the7626DTthe developer7627NNdeveloper has7628VHZhave a7629DTa different7630JJdifferent claim7631NNclaim that7632WDTthat 's7633VBZbe based7634VVNbase on7635INon its7636PP$its lost7637JJlost profits7638NNSprofit .7639SENT. And7640CCand that7641WDTthat would7642MDwould be7643VBbe irrespective7644RBirrespective of7645INof whether7646INwhether the7647DTthe buyer7648NNbuyer of7649INof the7650DTthe app7651NPApp ,7652,, the7653DTthe consumer7654NNconsumer ,7655,, sustains7656VVZsustain damage7657NNdamage for7658INfor the7659DTthe nine7660CDnine cents7661NNScent in7662INin my7663PP$my hypothetical7664JJhypothetical .7665SENT. You7666PPyou can7667MDcan run7668VVrun these7669DTthese out7670RPout under7671INunder different7672JJdifferent ...7673:... you7674PPyou can7675MDcan get7676VVget your7677PP$your law7678NNlaw clerks7679NNSclerk to7680TOto run7681VVrun all7682PDTall the7683DTthe different7684JJdifferent scenarios7685NNSscenario .7686SENT. It7687PPit always7688RBalways works7689VVZwork the7690DTthe same7691JJsame way7692NNway .7693SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]7694LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Unless7695INunless we're7696NNwe're ...7697:... unless7698INunless we7699PPwe 're7700VBPbe prepared7701VVNprepare to7702TOto overrule7703VVoverrule ,7704,, which7705WDTwhich was7706VBDbe n't7707RBn't our7708PP$our case7709NNcase ,7710,, Alcoa7711NPAlcoa ,7712,, I7713PPI think7714VVPthink all7715RBall you7716PPyou 'd7717MDwould have7718VHhave to7719TOto show7720VVshow is7721VBZbe ,7722,, one7723CDone ,7724,, they7725PPthey have7726VHPhave monopoly7727NNmonopoly power7728NNpower ,7729,, and7730CCand ,7731,, two7732CDtwo ,7733,, they7734PPthey achieved7735VVDachieve it7736PPit through7737INthrough less7738RBRless restrictive7739JJrestrictive ...7740:... for7741INfor more7742RBRmore restrictive7743JJrestrictive than7744INthan necessary7745JJnecessary practices7746NNSpractice ,7747,, end7748NNend of7749INof your7750PP$your burden7751NNburden .7752SENT. In7753INin your7754PP$your case7755NNcase ...7756:... and7757CCand ...7758:... and7759CCand Justice7760NPJustice Gorsuch7761NPGorsuch is7762VBZbe quite7763RBquite right7764RBright ,7765,, there7766EXthere 's7767VBZbe only7768RBonly one7769CDone monopoly7770NNmonopoly profit7771NNprofit to7772TOto be7773VBbe earned7774VVNearn .7775SENT. And7776CCand so7777RBso you7778PPyou 'd7779MDwould have7780VHhave a7781DTa different7782JJdifferent question7783NNquestion when7784WRBwhen you7785PPyou get7786VVPget to7787TOto the7788DTthe damages7789NNSdamage stage7790NNstage .7791SENT. The7792DTthe different7793JJdifferent question7794NNquestion is7795VBZbe :7796:: Well7797UHWell ,7798,, how7799WRBhow did7800VVDdo they7801PPthey divide7802VVPdivide that7803IN/thatthat monopoly7804NNmonopoly profit7805NNprofit ?7806SENT? You7807PPyou 'd7808MDwould like7809VVlike to7810TOto show7811VVshow that7812IN/thatthat they7813PPthey got7814VVDget some7815DTsome of7816INof it7817PPit from7818INfrom consumers7819NNSconsumer .7820SENT. But7821CCbut that7822DTthat 's7823VBZbe for7824INfor a7825DTa later7826JJRlate proceeding7827NNproceeding .7828SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]7829LOC[MR. FREDERICK] That7830DTthat 's7831VBZbe correct7832JJcorrect .7833SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]7834LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And7835CCand you7836PPyou 're7837VBPbe adding7838VVGadd one7839CDone thing7840NNthing .7841SENT. One7842CDOne of7843INof the7844DTthe things7845NNSthing that7846WDTthat we7847PPwe want7848VVPwant to7849TOto use7850VVuse in7851INin order7852NNorder to7853TOto prove7854VVprove that7855IN/thatthat they7856PPthey do7857VVPdo have7858VHhave monopoly7859NNmonopoly power7860NNpower ,7861,, i7862NPi .7863SENT. e7864LSe .7865SENT. ,7866,, the7867DTthe power7868NNpower to7869TOto raise7870VVraise price7871NNprice significantly7872RBsignificantly above7873INabove a7874DTa competitive7875JJcompetitive level7876NNlevel ,7877,, is7878VBZbe they7879PPthey charge7880VVPcharge us7881PPus so7882RBso ...7883:... bloody7884JJbloody ...7885:... much7886JJmuch money7887NNmoney .7888SENT. That7889DTthat 's7890VBZbe just7891RBjust a7892DTa piece7893NNpiece of7894INof evidence7895NNevidence here7896RBhere ,7897,, and7898CCand we7899PPwe 'll7900MDwill worry7901VVworry later7902RBRlater ,7903,, agreeing7904VVGagree that7905IN/thatthat there7906EXthere 's7907VBZbe only7908RBonly one7909CDone monopoly7910NNmonopoly profit7911NNprofit in7912INin theory7913NNtheory ,7914,, as7915INas to7916TOto who7917WPwho got7918VVDget what7919WPwhat .7920SENT. Now7921RBnow have7922VHPhave I7923PPI stated7924VVDstate that7925IN/thatthat correctly7926RBcorrectly ?7927SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]7928LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Yes7929NPYes ,7930,, you7931PPyou have7932VHPhave ,7933,, Justice7934NPJustice Breyer7935NPBreyer .7936SENT. I7937PPI mean7938VVPmean ,7939,, the7940DTthe basic7941JJbasic problem7942NNproblem in7943INin this7944DTthis case7945NNcase as7946INas it7947PPit comes7948VVZcome to7949TOto this7950DTthis Court7951NNcourt is7952VBZbe who7953WPwho gets7954VVZget to7955TOto complain7956VVcomplain about7957INabout the7958DTthe monopoly7959NNmonopoly App7960NPApp Store7961NPStore .7962SENT. We7963PPwe say7964VVPsay ,7965,, as7966INas the7967DTthe buyers7968NNSbuyer of7969INof the7970DTthe apps7971NNSapps from7972INfrom the7973DTthe monopoly7974NNmonopoly App7975NPApp Store7976NPStore ,7977,, there7978EXthere 's7979VBZbe no7980DTno form7981NNform or7982CCor function7983NNfunction ,7984,, there7985EXthere are7986VBPbe no7987DTno contract7988NNcontract issues7989NNSissue ,7990,, Justice7991NPJustice Gorsuch7992NPGorsuch ,7993,, that7994WDTthat create7995VVPcreate a7996DTa different7997JJdifferent form7998NNform versus7999CCversus function8000NNfunction problem8001NNproblem .8002SENT. We8003PPwe 're8004VBPbe paying8005VVGpay the8006DTthe money8007NNmoney .8008SENT. They8009PPthey 're8010VBPbe keeping8011VVGkeep it8012PPit .8013SENT. And8014CCand we8015PPwe think8016VVPthink we8017PPwe 're8018VBPbe paying8019VVGpay more8020RBRmore than8021INthan we're8022NNwe're ...8023:... we8024PPwe would8025MDwould have8026VHhave to8027TOto if8028INif the8029DTthe market8030NNmarket was8031VBDbe a8032DTa competitive8033JJcompetitive market8034NNmarket .8035SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8036LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] They8037PPthey say8038VVPsay it8039PPit would8040MDwould be8041VBbe different8042JJdifferent if8043INif Apple8044NPApple purchased8045VVDpurchase the8046DTthe apps8047NNSapps from8048INfrom the8049DTthe app8050NPApp developer8051NNdeveloper and8052CCand then8053RBthen added8054VVDadd 308055CD@card@ percent8056NNpercent on8057INon the8058DTthe sale8059NNsale .8060SENT. And8061CCand why8062WRBwhy is8063VBZbe that8064IN/thatthat not8065RBnot different8066JJdifferent ?8067SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]8068LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Because8069INbecause it8070PPit 's8071VBZbe irrelevant8072JJirrelevant .8073SENT. And8074CCand here8075RBhere 's8076VBZbe where8077WRBwhere we8078PPwe part8079VVPpart company8080NNcompany from8081INfrom the8082DTthe Solicitor8083NPSolicitor General8084NPGeneral .8085SENT. It8086PPit 's8087VBZbe irrelevant8088JJirrelevant who8089WPwho sets8090VVZset the8091DTthe price8092NNprice so8093RBso long8094RBlong as8095INas what8096WPwhat the8097DTthe violation8098NNviolation is8099VBZbe here8100RBhere ,8101,, the8102DTthe monopoly8103NNmonopoly App8104NPApp Store8105NPStore leads8106VVZlead to8107TOto higher8108JJRhigh prices8109NNSprice that8110IN/thatthat the8111DTthe consumers8112NNSconsumer have8113VHPhave to8114TOto pay8115VVpay .8116SENT. That8117DTthat 's8118VBZbe what8119WPwhat the8120DTthe violation8121NNviolation is8122VBZbe .8123SENT. That8124DTthat 's8125VBZbe how8126WRBhow we8127PPwe are8128VBPbe proximately8129RBproximately harmed8130VVNharm .8131SENT. So8132RBso ,8133,, in8134INin the8135DTthe very8136RBvery hypothetical8137JJhypothetical ,8138,, Justice8139NPJustice Kavanaugh8140NPKavanaugh ,8141,, that8142WDTthat you8143PPyou posed8144VVDpose to8145TOto the8146DTthe Solicitor8147NPSolicitor General8148NPGeneral ,8149,, the8150DTthe Solicitor8151NPSolicitor General8152NPGeneral concedes8153VVZconcede we8154PPwe are8155VBPbe direct8156JJdirect purchasers8157NNSpurchaser in8158INin a8159DTa situation8160NNsituation where8161WRBwhere the8162DTthe app8163NPApp developer8164NNdeveloper sets8165VVZset the8166DTthe price8167NNprice and8168CCand they8169PPthey simply8170RBsimply tack8171VVPtack on8172INon 308173CD@card@ percent8174NNpercent by8175INby virtue8176NNvirtue of8177INof their8178PP$their monopoly8179NNmonopoly power8180NNpower .8181SENT. It8182PPit 's8183VBZbe no8184RBno different8185JJdifferent here8186RBhere .8187SENT. If8188INif you8189PPyou think8190VVPthink about8191INabout it8192PPit in8193INin ...8194:... in8195INin terms8196NNSterm of8197INof what8198WPwhat is8199VBZbe actually8200RBactually going8201VVGgo on8202INon ,8203,, suppose8204VVPsuppose Apple8205NPApple dropped8206VVDdrop its8207PP$its commission8208NNcommission from8209INfrom 308210CD@card@ percent8211NNpercent to8212TOto 208213CD@card@ percent8214NNpercent ,8215,, but8216CCbut it8217PPit maintained8218VVDmaintain the8219DTthe price8220NNprice restriction8221NNrestriction of8222INof a8223DTa 998224CD@card@ cent8225NNcent app8226NNapp .8227SENT. From8228INfrom the8229DTthe consumer8230NNconsumer 's8231POS's perspective8232NNperspective ,8233,, we8234PPwe 're8235VBPbe still8236RBstill overpaying8237VVGoverpay for8238INfor the8239DTthe app8240NPApp .8241SENT. Under8242INunder that8243DTthat hypothetical8244JJhypothetical ,8245,, Apple8246NPApple simply8247RBsimply gives8248VVZgive the8249DTthe app8250NPApp developer8251NNdeveloper more8252JJRmore money8253NNmoney ,8254,, but8255CCbut that8256WDTthat does8257VVZdo n't8258RBn't affect8259VVaffect the8260DTthe consumer8261NNconsumer welfare8262NNwelfare at8263INat all8264DTall .8265SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8266LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Now8267RBnow ...8268:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8269LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Are8270VBPbe we8271PPwe going8272VVGgo to8273TOto create8274VVcreate a8275DTa ...8276:... I8277PPI 'm8278VBPbe sorry8279JJsorry .8280SENT. Go8281VVgo ahead8282RBahead ,8283,, please8284UHplease .8285SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8286LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] The8287NPThe General8288NPGeneral said8289VVDsay that8290IN/thatthat if8291INif ,8292,, in8293INin fact8294NNfact ,8295,, Apple8296NPApple bought8297VVDbuy these8298DTthese products8299NNSproduct from8300INfrom suppliers8301NNSsupplier and8302CCand paid8303VVDpay them8304PPthem and8305CCand then8306RBthen added8307VVDadd percent8308NNpercent to8309TOto you8310PPyou ,8311,, that8312IN/thatthat that8313WDTthat would8314MDwould be8315VBbe a8316DTa classic8317JJclassic antitrust8318JJantitrust violation8319NNviolation .8320SENT. You8321PPyou 're8322VBPbe saying8323VVGsay ...8324:... that8325WDTthat 's8326VBZbe basically8327RBbasically what8328WPwhat they8329PPthey 're8330VBPbe doing8331VVGdo here8332RBhere anyway8333RBanyway .8334SENT. But8335CCbut let8336VVlet 's8337VBZbe take8338VVtake the8339DTthe reverse8340NNreverse .8341SENT. Let8342VVlet 's8343VBZbe say8344VVsay they8345PPthey collected8346VVNcollect money8347NNmoney from8348INfrom you8349PPyou and8350CCand paid8351VVDpay all8352RBall of8353INof it8354PPit over8355INover to8356TOto the8357DTthe developer8358NNdeveloper and8359CCand then8360RBthen told8361VVDtell the8362DTthe developer8363NNdeveloper :8364:: Give8365VVgive us8366PPus percent8367NNpercent of8368INof that8369DTthat back8370NNback .8371SENT. Would8372MDwould you8373PPyou then8374RBthen still8375RBstill be8376VBbe a8377DTa direct8378JJdirect purchaser8379NNpurchaser and8380CCand ...8381:... [MR. FREDERICK]8382LOC[MR. FREDERICK] So8383INso we8384PPwe would8385MDwould still8386RBstill be8387VBbe direct8388JJdirect purchasers8389NNSpurchaser if8390INif ,8391,, under8392INunder your8393PP$your hypothetical8394JJhypothetical ,8395,, we8396PPwe 're8397VBPbe buying8398VVGbuy it8399PPit from8400INfrom Apple8401NPApple and8402CCand then8403RBthen Apple8404NPApple is8405VBZbe engaging8406VVGengage in8407INin the8408DTthe Justice8409NPJustice Gorsuch8410NPGorsuch form8411NNform over8412INover function8413NNfunction situations8414NNSsituation in8415INin terms8416NNSterm of8417INof how8418WRBhow the8419DTthe money8420NNmoney gets8421VVZget moved8422VVNmove around8423RParound .8424SENT. I8425PPI think8426VVPthink that8427IN/thatthat the8428DTthe ...8429:... in8430INin that8431DTthat situation8432NNsituation ,8433,, we8434PPwe are8435VBPbe still8436RBstill directly8437RBdirectly purchasing8438VVGpurchase and8439CCand we8440PPwe 're8441VBPbe still8442RBstill able8443JJable to8444TOto complain8445VVcomplain about8446INabout Apple8447NPApple 's8448POS's violation8449NNviolation .8450SENT. And8451CCand I8452PPI think8453VVPthink ,8454,, under8455INunder your8456PP$your hypothetical8457JJhypothetical ,8458,, Justice8459NPJustice Sotomayor8460NPSotomayor ,8461,, we8462PPwe have8463VHPhave to8464TOto keep8465VVkeep the8466DTthe idea8467NNidea that8468IN/thatthat Apple8469NPApple is8470VBZbe still8471RBstill operating8472VVGoperate a8473DTa monopoly8474NNmonopoly App8475NPApp Store8476NPStore .8477SENT. It8478PPit 's8479VBZbe no8480RBno different8481JJdifferent than8482INthan if8483INif there8484EXthere was8485VBDbe a8486DTa grocery8487NNgrocery store8488NNstore chain8489NNchain that8490WDTthat monopolized8491VVDmonopolize the8492DTthe sale8493NNsale of8494INof all8495DTall vegetables8496NNSvegetable .8497SENT. If8498INif they8499PPthey ...8500:... if8501INif that8502WDTthat is8503VBZbe the8504DTthe only8505JJonly place8506NNplace you8507PPyou could8508MDcould buy8509VVbuy vegetables8510NNSvegetable ,8511,, we8512PPwe would8513MDwould say8514VVsay that8515IN/thatthat that8516DTthat monopoly8517NNmonopoly store8518NNstore outlet8519NNoutlet was8520VBDbe able8521JJable to8522TOto control8523VVcontrol prices8524NNSprice and8525CCand affect8526VVaffect output8527NNoutput .8528SENT. That's8529NNSThat's ...8530:... the8531DTthe ...8532:... basically8533RBbasically what8534WPwhat 's8535VBZbe happening8536VVGhappen here8537RBhere .8538SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8539LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well8540UHwell ,8541,, I8542PPI think8543VVPthink Justice8544NPJustice Sotomayor8545NPSotomayor 's8546POS's question8547NNquestion is8548VBZbe a8549DTa ...8550:... requires8551VVZrequire further8552JJRfurther exploration8553NNexploration .8554SENT. I8555PPI mean8556VVPmean ,8557,, are8558VBPbe ...8559:... are8560VBPbe we8561PPwe in8562INin danger8563NNdanger of8564INof just8565RBjust incentivizing8566VVGincentivizing a8567DTa restructuring8568NNrestructuring of8569INof contracts8570NNScontract here8571RBhere so8572RBso that8573IN/thatthat all8574PDTall that8575DTthat Apple8576NPApple does8577VVZdo or8578CCor people8579NNSpeople like8580VVPlike it8581PPit is8582VBZbe make8583VVmake you8584PPyou purchase8585VVpurchase directly8586RBdirectly from8587INfrom the8588DTthe app8589NPApp provider8590NNprovider and8591CCand then8592RBthen it8593PPit then8594RBthen returns8595VVZreturn the8596DTthe ...8597:... the8598DTthe profit8599NNprofit to8600TOto ...8601:... to8602TOto Apple8603NPApple later8604RBRlater ?8605SENT? And8606CCand if8607INif that8608WDTthat 's8609VBZbe all8610DTall we8611PPwe 're8612VBPbe doing8613VVGdo ,8614,, then8615RBthen what8616WPwhat is8617VBZbe the8618DTthe point8619NNpoint of8620INof Illinois8621NPIllinois Brick8622NPBrick ?8623SENT? And8624CCand you8625PPyou still8626RBstill have8627VHPhave n't8628RBn't explained8629VVNexplain to8630TOto me8631PPme why8632WRBwhy the8633DTthe plaintiffs8634NNSplaintiff '8635POS' bar8636NNbar is8637VBZbe n't8638RBn't asking8639VVGask to8640TOto overturn8641VVoverturn Illinois8642NPIllinois Brick8643NPBrick when8644WRBwhen 318645CD@card@ states8646NNSstate are8647VBPbe .8648SENT. So8649RBso help8650VVhelp ...8651:... help8652VVhelp me8653PPme on8654INon both8655CCboth those8656DTthose .8657SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]8658LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well8659UHwell ...8660:... well8661RBwell ...8662:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8663LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] They8664PPthey 're8665VBPbe two8666CDtwo separate8667JJseparate questions8668NNSquestion .8669SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]8670LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...8671:... okay8672JJokay .8673SENT. So8674RBso ...8675:... so8676RBso let8677VVlet me8678PPme take8679VVtake the8680DTthe second8681JJsecond one8682CDone first8683RBfirst ,8684,, Justice8685NPJustice Gorsuch8686NPGorsuch .8687SENT. I8688PPI do8689VVPdo n't8690RBn't represent8691VVrepresent the8692DTthe plaintiffs8693NNSplaintiff '8694POS' bar8695NNbar .8696SENT. I8697PPI represent8698VVPrepresent the8699DTthe consumers8700NNSconsumer in8701INin this8702DTthis case8703NNcase ,8704,, and8705CCand the8706DTthe consumers8707NNSconsumer in8708INin this8709DTthis case8710NNcase have8711VHhave no8712DTno brief8713NNbrief and8714CCand no8715DTno beef8716NNbeef with8717INwith Illinois8718NPIllinois Brick8719NPBrick .8720SENT. We8721PPwe think8722VVPthink we8723PPwe are8724VBPbe direct8725JJdirect purchasers8726NNSpurchaser .8727SENT. We8728PPwe satisfy8729VVPsatisfy the8730DTthe rule8731NNrule .8732SENT. We8733PPwe come8734VVPcome within8735INwithin the8736DTthe bright8737JJbright line8738NNline .8739SENT. That8740DTthat 's8741VBZbe okay8742JJokay with8743INwith us8744PPus .8745SENT. What8746WPWhat the8747DTthe Court8748NPCourt decides8749VVZdecide doctrinally8750RBdoctrinally to8751TOto do8752VVdo with8753INwith Illinois8754NPIllinois Brick8755NPBrick is8756VBZbe obviously8757RBobviously something8758NNsomething where8759WRBwhere I8760PPI think8761VVPthink you8762PPyou go8763VVgo to8764TOto a8765DTa different8766JJdifferent situation8767NNsituation if8768INif the8769DTthe case8770NNcase arises8771VVZarise .8772SENT. But8773CCbut ,8774,, on8775INon your8776PP$your other8777JJother point8778NNpoint ,8779,, I8780PPI think8781VVPthink it8782PPit 's8783VBZbe the8784DTthe other8785JJother side8786NNside that8787WDTthat is8788VBZbe actually8789RBactually asking8790VVGask for8791INfor the8792DTthe opportunity8793NNopportunity to8794TOto use8795VVuse contracts8796NNScontract in8797INin order8798NNorder to8799TOto distort8800VVdistort or8801CCor recharacterize8802VVrecharacterize matters8803NNSmatter in8804INin a8805DTa way8806NNway that8807WDTthat evades8808VVZevade the8809DTthe Illinois8810NPIllinois Brick8811NPBrick bright-line8812NNbright-line rule8813NNrule .8814SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8815LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well8816UHwell ...8817:... well8818UHwell ,8819,, assume8820VVassume for8821INfor the8822DTthe moment8823NNmoment that8824WDTthat ...8825:... that8826IN/thatthat I8827PPI believe8828VVPbelieve the8829DTthe economics8830NNSeconomics underlying8831VVGunderlie the8832DTthe two8833CDtwo arrangements8834NNSarrangement are8835VBPbe very8836RBvery similar8837JJsimilar .8838SENT. Hard8839JJhard to8840TOto distinguish8841VVdistinguish .8842SENT. I8843PPI have8844VHPhave n't8845RBn't yet8846RByet heard8847VVNhear you8848PPyou give8849VVPgive me8850PPme a8851DTa good8852JJgood argument8853NNargument why8854WRBwhy .8855SENT. So8856RBso let8857VVlet 's8858VBZbe just8859RBjust posit8860NNposit that8861RBthat .8862SENT. Then8863RBthen it8864PPit really8865RBreally is8866VBZbe just8867RBjust about8868INabout form8869NNform ,8870,, is8871VBZbe n't8872RBn't it8873PPit ?8874SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]8875LOC[MR. FREDERICK] No8876NPNo ,8877,, I8878PPI think8879VVPthink in8880INin that8881DTthat hypothetical8882JJhypothetical ,8883,, I8884PPI would8885MDwould be8886VBbe prepared8887VVNprepare to8888TOto say8889VVsay if8890INif we8891PPwe were8892VBDbe paying8893VVGpay the8894DTthe developer8895NNdeveloper directly8896RBdirectly for8897INfor the8898DTthe app8899NPApp and8900CCand the8901DTthe app8902NPApp developer8903NNdeveloper could8904MDcould set8905VVset whatever8906WDTwhatever price8907NNprice it8908PPit wanted8909VVDwant to8910TOto set8911VVset ,8912,, okay8913RBokay ,8914,, keep8915VVkeep with8916INwith me8917PPme on8918INon that8919DTthat assumption8920NNassumption ,8921,, the8922DTthe app8923NPApp developer8924NNdeveloper operating8925VVGoperate in8926INin a8927DTa free8928JJfree market8929NNmarket can8930MDcan set8931VVset whatever8932WDTwhatever it8933PPit wants8934VVZwant to8935TOto set8936VVset ,8937,, and8938CCand then8939RBthen Apple8940NPApple comes8941VVZcome after8942INafter the8943DTthe app8944NPApp developer8945NNdeveloper and8946CCand says8947VVZsay ,8948,, hey8949UHhey ,8950,, you8951PPyou bought8952VVDbuy it8953PPit ...8954:... the8955DTthe consumer8956NNconsumer bought8957VVDbuy it8958PPit through8959INthrough our8960PP$our store8961NNstore ,8962,, we8963PPwe want8964VVPwant whatever8965WDTwhatever we8966PPwe want8967VVPwant ,8968,, that8969WDTthat becomes8970VVZbecome not8971RBnot a8972DTa problem8973NNproblem with8974INwith the8975DTthe consumer8976NNconsumer ;8977:; that8978WDTthat becomes8979VVZbecome a8980DTa problem8981NNproblem between8982INbetween the8983DTthe developer8984NNdeveloper and8985CCand the8986DTthe app8987NPApp ...8988:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8989LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Ah8990UHah ...8991:... [MR. FREDERICK]8992LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...8993:... and8994CCand the8995DTthe seller8996NNseller of8997INof the8998DTthe app8999NPApp .9000SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]9001LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...9002:... so9003RBso pricing9004NNpricing control9005NNcontrol is9006VBZbe really9007RBreally important9008JJimportant to9009TOto proximate9010JJproximate cause9011NNcause then9012RBthen ?9013SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9014LOC[MR. FREDERICK] I9015PPI beg9016VVPbeg your9017PP$your pardon9018NNpardon ?9019SENT? [JUSTICE GORSUCH]9020LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] So9021INso pricing9022NNpricing control9023NNcontrol is9024VBZbe really9025RBreally important9026JJimportant to9027TOto proximate9028JJproximate cause9029NNcause ?9030SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9031LOC[MR. FREDERICK] No9032NPNo ,9033,, pricing9034NNpricing control9035NNcontrol is9036VBZbe not9037RBnot important9038JJimportant to9039TOto price9040NNprice ...9041:... to9042TOto proximate9043JJproximate cause9044NNcause in9045INin the9046DTthe sense9047NNsense that9048IN/thatthat whether9049INwhether ...9050:... I9051PPI think9052VVPthink ,9053,, under9054INunder direct9055JJdirect proximate9056JJproximate cause9057NNcause ,9058,, we9059PPwe 're9060VBPbe buying9061VVGbuy the9062DTthe app9063NNapp directly9064RBdirectly from9065INfrom the9066DTthe app9067NPApp developer9068NNdeveloper ,9069,, and9070CCand ,9071,, remember9072VVPremember ,9073,, a9074DTa key9075JJkey part9076NNpart of9077INof my9078PP$my answer9079NNanswer was9080VBDbe the9081DTthe app9082NPApp developer9083NNdeveloper can9084MDcan set9085VVset that9086DTthat price9087NNprice competitively9088RBcompetitively in9089INin a9090DTa competitive9091JJcompetitive market9092NNmarket .9093SENT. What9094WPWhat arrangements9095NNSarrangement happen9096VVPhappen between9097INbetween Apple9098NPApple exercising9099VVGexercise its9100PP$its monopoly9101NNmonopoly control9102NNcontrol through9103INthrough the9104DTthe App9105NPApp Store9106NPStore and9107CCand the9108DTthe supplier9109NNsupplier is9110VBZbe not9111RBnot something9112NNsomething we9113PPwe are9114VBPbe proximately9115RBproximately ...9116:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]9117LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Your9118PP$your ...9119:... your9120PP$your ...9121:... [MR. FREDERICK]9122LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...9123:... affected9124VVNaffect by9125INby that9126DTthat .9127SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]9128LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Sorry9129JJsorry to9130TOto interrupt9131VVinterrupt .9132SENT. Your9133PP$your point9134NNpoint was9135VBDbe that9136IN/thatthat the9137DTthe other9138JJother side9139NNside is9140VBZbe putting9141VVGput form9142NNform over9143INover the9144DTthe reality9145NNreality ?9146SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9147LOC[MR. FREDERICK] That9148DTthat 's9149VBZbe correct9150JJcorrect .9151SENT. And9152CCand ...9153:... and9154CCand they9155PPthey 're9156VBPbe doing9157VVGdo it9158PPit in9159INin a9160DTa way9161NNway that9162WDTthat is9163VBZbe particularly9164RBparticularly standardless9165JJstandardless ,9166,, because9167INbecause what9168WPwhat the9169DTthe court9170NNcourt in9171INin UtiliCorp9172NPUtiliCorp held9173VVDhold was9174VBDbe that9175IN/thatthat even9176RBeven when9177WRBwhen it9178PPit is9179VBZbe absolutely9180RBabsolutely clear9181JJclear 1009182CD@card@ percent9183NNpercent of9184INof the9185DTthe over-charge9186NNover-charge is9187VBZbe going9188VVGgo from9189INfrom the9190DTthe natural9191JJnatural gas9192NNgas supplier9193NNsupplier through9194INthrough the9195DTthe utility9196NNutility directly9197RBdirectly to9198TOto the9199DTthe consumer9200NNconsumer ,9201,, this9202DTthis Court9203NPCourt held9204VVNhold :9205:: No9206UHNo ,9207,, we9208PPwe 're9209VBPbe going9210VVGgo to9211TOto keep9212VVkeep the9213DTthe bright-line9214NNbright-line rule9215NNrule .9216SENT. Only9217RBonly the9218DTthe utility9219NNutility gets9220VVZget to9221TOto complain9222VVcomplain about9223INabout the9224DTthe natural9225JJnatural gas9226NNgas over-charge9227NNSover-charge .9228SENT. And9229CCand it9230PPit was9231VBDbe that9232DTthat bright-line9233NNbright-line rule9234NNrule that9235IN/thatthat the9236DTthe Court9237NNcourt said9238VVDsay is9239VBZbe going9240VVGgo to9241TOto apply9242VVapply .9243SENT. And9244CCand the9245DTthe reason9246NNreason is9247VBZbe exactly9248RBexactly ,9249,, Justice9250NPJustice Alito9251NPAlito ,9252,, for9253INfor the9254DTthe point9255NNpoint that9256IN/thatthat you9257PPyou made9258VVDmake ,9259,, which9260WDTwhich is9261VBZbe that9262IN/thatthat it9263PPit 's9264VBZbe about9265RBabout judicial9266JJjudicial administration9267NNadministration at9268INat the9269DTthe pleadings9270NNSpleading stage9271NNstage .9272SENT. We9273PPwe 're9274VBPbe just9275RBjust trying9276VVGtry to9277TOto figure9278VVfigure out9279RPout who9280WPwho has9281VHZhave the9282DTthe claim9283NNclaim and9284CCand who9285WPwho could9286MDcould complain9287VVcomplain about9288INabout the9289DTthe antitrust9290JJantitrust violation9291NNviolation .9292SENT. Here9293RBhere ,9294,, that9295WDTthat 's9296VBZbe clearly9297RBclearly the9298DTthe consumers9299NNSconsumer because9300INbecause we9301PPwe 're9302VBPbe the9303DTthe ones9304NNSone who9305WPwho are9306VBPbe paying9307VVGpay Apple9308NPApple the9309DTthe money9310NNmoney to9311TOto receive9312VVreceive the9313DTthe app9314NPApp .9315SENT. And9316CCand so9317RBso ,9318,, to9319TOto ...9320:... to9321TOto Justice9322NPJustice Kavanaugh9323NPKavanaugh ,9324,, to9325TOto finish9326VVfinish off9327RPoff the9328DTthe point9329NNpoint ,9330,, what9331WPwhat the9332DTthe other9333JJother side9334NNside is9335VBZbe essentially9336RBessentially asking9337VVGask is9338VBZbe that9339IN/thatthat ,9340,, instead9341RBinstead of9342INof having9343VHGhave a9344DTa bright-line9345NNbright-line rule9346NNrule ,9347,, it9348PPit 's9349VBZbe a9350DTa very9351RBvery fuzzy9352JJfuzzy rule9353NNrule ,9354,, because9355INbecause they9356PPthey do9357VVPdo n't9358RBn't have9359VHhave a9360DTa test9361NNtest for9362INfor what9363WPwhat constitutes9364VVZconstitute a9365DTa pass-through9366JJpass-through .9367SENT. They9368PPthey do9369VVPdo n't9370RBn't have9371VHhave a9372DTa test9373NNtest that9374WDTthat applies9375VVZapply when9376WRBwhen there9377EXthere is9378VBZbe no9379DTno middleman9380NNmiddleman .9381SENT. There9382EXthere 's9383VBZbe no9384DTno middleman9385NNmiddleman in9386INin this9387DTthis particular9388JJparticular transaction9389NNtransaction .9390SENT. It9391PPit 's9392VBZbe directly9393RBdirectly between9394INbetween the9395DTthe iPhone9396NNiPhone owner9397NNowner and9398CCand Apple9399NPApple .9400SENT. And9401CCand so9402RBso you9403PPyou 're9404VBPbe going9405VVGgo to9406TOto have9407VHhave to9408TOto figure9409VVfigure out9410RPout ,9411,, do9412VVdo they9413PPthey get9414VVget a9415DTa one9416CDone ticket9417NNticket good9418JJgood for9419INfor this9420DTthis case9421NNcase only9422RBonly ?9423SENT? They9424PPthey happen9425VVPhappen to9426TOto be9427VBbe the9428DTthe largest9429JJSlarge company9430NNcompany in9431INin the9432DTthe world9433NNworld ,9434,, or9435CCor at9436INat least9437JJSleast they9438PPthey were9439VBDbe some9440DTsome weeks9441NNSweek ago9442RBago ,9443,, and9444CCand they9445PPthey are9446VBPbe able9447JJable to9448TOto extract9449VVextract monopoly9450NNmonopoly pricing9451NNpricing by9452INby virtue9453NNvirtue of9454INof a9455DTa unique9456JJunique e-commerce9457NPe-commerce monopoly9458NNmonopoly on9459INon their9460PP$their App9461NPApp Store9462NPStore .9463SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]9464LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] What9465WPWhat concerns9466VVZconcern me9467PPme about9468INabout your9469PP$your argument9470NNargument is9471VBZbe that9472IN/thatthat it9473PPit does9474VVZdo n't9475RBn't seem9476VVseem to9477TOto be9478VBbe based9479VVNbase on9480INon the9481DTthe way9482NNway in9483INin which9484WDTwhich this9485DTthis claim9486NNclaim was9487VBDbe understood9488VVNunderstand by9489INby the9490DTthe lower9491JJRlow courts9492NNScourt .9493SENT. Maybe9494RBmaybe they9495PPthey misunderstood9496VVDmisunderstand it9497PPit .9498SENT. But9499CCbut ,9500,, I9501PPI mean9502VVPmean ,9503,, the9504DTthe opening9505NNopening line9506NNline of9507INof the9508DTthe ...9509:... the9510DTthe order9511NNorder granting9512VVGgrant Apple9513NPApple 's9514POS's motion9515NNmotion to9516TOto dismiss9517VVdismiss the9518DTthe second9519JJsecond amended9520VVNamend complaint9521NNcomplaint by9522INby the9523DTthe district9524NNdistrict court9525NNcourt :9526:: "9527``" The9528DTthe thrust9529NNthrust of9530INof Plaintiff9531NPPlaintiff 's9532POS's second9533JJsecond amended9534VVNamend complaint9535NNcomplaint is9536VBZbe that9537IN/thatthat Apple9538NPApple has9539VHZhave engaged9540VVNengage in9541INin antitrust9542JJantitrust conduct9543NNconduct by9544INby collecting9545VVGcollect 309546CD@card@ percent9547NNpercent of9548INof the9549DTthe price9550NNprice of9551INof iPhone9552NNiPhone applications9553NNSapplication .9554SENT. "9555''" [MR. FREDERICK]9556LOC[MR. FREDERICK] The9557DTthe district9558NNdistrict court9559NNcourt just9560RBjust missed9561VVDmiss it9562PPit ,9563,, Justice9564NPJustice Alito9565NPAlito ,9566,, respectfully9567RBrespectfully .9568SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]9569LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And9570CCand where9571WRBwhere ...9572:... okay9573JJokay .9574SENT. Where9575WRBwhere ...9576:... can9577MDcan you9578PPyou point9579VVpoint to9580TOto me9581PPme where9582WRBwhere in9583INin the9584DTthe Ninth9585JJninth Circu9586NPCircu it9587PPit 's9588VBZbe opinion9589NNopinion they9590PPthey understood9591VVDunderstand your9592PP$your claim9593NNclaim in9594INin the9595DTthe way9596NNway that9597IN/thatthat you9598PPyou 've9599VHPhave characterized9600VVNcharacterize it9601PPit this9602DTthis morning9603NNmorning ?9604SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9605LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Yeah9606UHYeah ,9607,, they9608PPthey said9609VVDsay on9610INon page9611NNpage 21a9612JJ21a of9613INof the9614DTthe petition9615NNpetition app9616NNapp ...9617:... I9618PPI think9619VVPthink that9620DTthat 's9621VBZbe the9622DTthe page9623NNpage ...9624:... that9625IN/thatthat this9626DTthis is9627VBZbe simply9628RBsimply about9629INabout a9630DTa monopoly9631NNmonopoly distribution9632NNdistribution and9633CCand that9634IN/thatthat it9635PPit is9636VBZbe a9637DTa simple9638JJsimple case9639NNcase as9640INas a9641DTa result9642NNresult of9643INof that9644DTthat .9645SENT. If9646INif you9647PPyou look9648VVPlook at9649INat the9650DTthe bottom9651NNbottom of9652INof 21a9653NP21a ,9654,, the9655DTthe very9656RBvery last9657JJlast paragraph9658NNparagraph :9659:: "9660``" Instead9661RBinstead ,9662,, we9663PPwe rest9664VVPrest our9665PP$our analysis9666NNanalysis ,9667,, as9668RBas compelled9669VVNcompel by9670INby Hanover9671NPHanover Shoe9672NPShoe ,9673,, Illinois9674NPIllinois Brick9675NPBrick ,9676,, UtiliCorp9677NPUtiliCorp ,9678,, and9679CCand Delaware9680NPDelaware Valley9681NPValley ,9682,, on9683INon the9684DTthe fundamental9685JJfundamental distinction9686NNdistinction between9687INbetween a9688DTa manufacturer9689NNmanufacturer or9690CCor producer9691NNproducer on9692INon the9693DTthe one9694CDone hand9695NNhand and9696CCand a9697DTa distributor9698NNdistributor on9699INon the9700DTthe other9701JJother .9702SENT. "9703''" Apple9704NPApple is9705VBZbe a9706DTa distributor9707NNdistributor of9708INof the9709DTthe iPhone9710NNiPhone apps9711NNSapps ,9712,, selling9713VVGsell them9714PPthem directly9715RBdirectly to9716TOto purchasers9717NNSpurchaser through9718INthrough its9719PP$its App9720NPApp Store9721NPStore .9722SENT. And9723CCand because9724INbecause of9725INof that9726DTthat ,9727,, we9728PPwe have9729VHPhave standing9730NNstanding to9731TOto complain9732VVcomplain that9733IN/thatthat they9734PPthey are9735VBPbe the9736DTthe seller9737NNseller of9738INof the9739DTthe apps9740NNSapps .9741SENT. That's9742NNSThat's ...9743:... it9744PPit 's9745VBZbe a9746DTa very9747RBvery simple9748JJsimple case9749NNcase in9750INin that9751DTthat ...9752:... as9753RBas viewed9754VVNview through9755INthrough that9756DTthat lens9757NNlens .9758SENT. Now9759RBnow I9760PPI accept9761VVPaccept ,9762,, Justice9763NPJustice Alito9764NPAlito ,9765,, that9766IN/thatthat there9767EXthere have9768VHPhave been9769VBNbe a9770DTa lot9771NNlot of9772INof arguments9773NNSargument and9774CCand this9775DTthis idea9776NNidea about9777INabout the9778DTthe 309779CD@card@ percent9780NNpercent has9781VHZhave led9782VVNlead to9783TOto a9784DTa certain9785JJcertain lack9786NNlack of9787INof clarity9788NNclarity ,9789,, but9790CCbut I9791PPI think9792VVPthink that9793IN/thatthat the9794DTthe position9795NNposition we9796PPwe have9797VHPhave written9798VVNwrite in9799INin our9800PP$our brief9801NNbrief is9802VBZbe the9803DTthe best9804JJSgood articulation9805NNarticulation of9806INof what9807WPwhat the9808DTthe underlying9809VVGunderlie theory9810NNtheory is9811VBZbe here9812RBhere ,9813,, and9814CCand that9815WDTthat is9816VBZbe that9817IN/thatthat the9818DTthe Apple9819NPApple monopoly9820NNmonopoly App9821NPApp Store9822NPStore over-charges9823VVZover-charges iPhone9824NNiPhone owners9825NNSowner for9826INfor apps9827NNSapps .9828SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]9829LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And9830CCand ...9831:... and9832CCand ...9833:... and9834CCand the9835DTthe rule9836NNrule of9837INof the9838DTthe end9839NNend in9840INin 99-cent9841JJ99-cent requirement9842NNrequirement in9843INin that9844DTthat theory9845NNtheory is9846VBZbe what9847WPwhat ?9848SENT? In9849INin other9850JJother words9851NNSword ,9852,, would9853MDwould your9854PP$your theory9855NNtheory be9856VBbe the9857DTthe same9858JJsame if9859INif no9860DTno such9861JJsuch requirement9862NNrequirement existed9863VVDexist ,9864,, or9865CCor would9866MDwould it9867PPit not9868RBnot ?9869SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9870LOC[MR. FREDERICK] It9871PPit would9872MDwould be9873VBbe still9874RBstill an9875DTan over-charge9876JJover-charge case9877NNcase ,9878,, Justice9879NPJustice Kagan9880NPKagan ,9881,, because9882INbecause the9883DTthe theory9884NNtheory economically9885RBeconomically is9886VBZbe that9887IN/thatthat ,9888,, if9889INif you9890PPyou are9891VBPbe having9892VHGhave to9893TOto buy9894VVbuy only9895RBonly from9896INfrom a9897DTa monopoly9898NNmonopoly ,9899,, you9900PPyou are9901VBPbe paying9902VVGpay more9903RBRmore than9904INthan you9905PPyou would9906MDwould if9907INif there9908EXthere was9909VBDbe a9910DTa ,9911,, you9912PPyou know9913VVPknow ,9914,, discount9915NNdiscount apps9916NNSapps warehouse9917NNwarehouse or9918CCor you9919PPyou could9920MDcould buy9921VVbuy directly9922RBdirectly from9923INfrom the9924DTthe app9925NPApp 's9926POS's developer9927NNdeveloper .9928SENT. Our9929PP$our assertion9930NNassertion is9931VBZbe that9932IN/thatthat ,9933,, with9934INwith multiple9935JJmultiple sellers9936NNSseller ,9937,, multiple9938JJmultiple suppliers9939NNSsupplier of9940INof the9941DTthe apps9942NNSapps ,9943,, we9944PPwe would9945MDwould be9946VBbe able9947JJable to9948TOto buy9949VVbuy them9950PPthem at9951INat a9952DTa lower9953JJRlow price9954NNprice .9955SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]9956LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So9957INso what9958WPwhat 's9959VBZbe the9960DTthe significance9961NNsignificance ...9962:... [MR. FREDERICK]9963LOC[MR. FREDERICK] It9964PPit 's9965VBZbe that9966DTthat competition9967NNcompetition .9968SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]9969LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...9970:... of9971INof that9972DTthat end9973NNend in9974INin 99-cent9975JJ99-cent rule9976NNrule ?9977SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]9978LOC[MR. FREDERICK] The9979DTthe significance9980NNsignificance of9981INof it9982PPit is9983VBZbe that9984IN/thatthat it9985PPit informs9986VVZinform the9987DTthe price9988NNprice elevation9989NNelevation and9990CCand the9991DTthe price9992NNprice over-charge9993NNover-charge .9994SENT. And9995CCand it9996PPit also9997RBalso informs9998VVZinform that9999IN/thatthat ,10000,, contrary10001JJcontrary to10002TOto Apple10003NPApple 's10004POS's assertion10005NNassertion ,10006,, they10007PPthey are10008VBPbe not10009RBnot the10010DTthe agent10011NNagent of10012INof the10013DTthe apps10014NNSapps developers10015NNSdeveloper .10016SENT. I10017PPI mean10018VVPmean ,10019,, they10020PPthey put10021VVDput that10022IN/thatthat in10023INin their10024PP$their contract10025NNcontract .10026SENT. That's10027NPThat's ...10028:... that10029WDTthat 's10030VBZbe where10031WRBwhere you10032PPyou get10033VVPget to10034TOto Justice10035NPJustice Gorsuch10036NPGorsuch 's10037POS's form10038NNform over10039INover substance10040NNsubstance problem10041NNproblem ,10042,, because10043RBbecause ,10044,, at10045INat 9910046CD@card@ cents10047NNScent ,10048,, they10049PPthey 're10050VBPbe telling10051VVGtell the10052DTthe app10053NPApp developer10054NNdeveloper ,10055,, we10056PPwe 're10057VBPbe foreclosing10058VVGforeclose from10059INfrom you10060PPyou 9910061CD@card@ percent10062NNpercent of10063INof all10064DTall pricing10065NNpricing options10066NNSoption .10067SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]10068LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well10069UHWell ,10070,, if10071INif it10072PPit 's10073VBZbe that10074DTthat significant10075JJsignificant ,10076,, why10077WRBwhy did10078VVDdo n't10079RBn't you10080PPyou include10081VVPinclude it10082PPit in10083INin the10084DTthe complaint10085NNcomplaint ?10086SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10087LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Because10088INbecause it10089PPit 's10090VBZbe not10091RBnot significant10092JJsignificant from10093INfrom this10094DTthis perspective10095NNperspective ,10096,, Mr10097NPMr .10098SENT. Chief10099NPChief Justice10100NPJustice ,10101,, and10102CCand that10103WDTthat is10104VBZbe that10105IN/thatthat ,10106,, with10107INwith an10108DTan ...10109:... a10110DTa monopoly10111NNmonopoly store10112NNstore ,10113,, the10114DTthe prices10115NNSprice are10116VBPbe over-charged10117VVNover-charged ,10118,, our10119PP$our theory10120NNtheory is10121VBZbe relatively10122RBrelatively simple10123JJsimple .10124SENT. They10125PPthey brought10126VVDbring up10127RPup the10128DTthe 9910129CD@card@ cents10130NNScent in10131INin the10132DTthe blue10133JJblue brief10134NNbrief .10135SENT. I10136PPI think10137VVPthink it10138PPit 's10139VBZbe at10140INat page10141NNpage 910142CD9 of10143INof their10144PP$their brief10145NNbrief where10146WRBwhere they10147PPthey raise10148VVPraise the10149DTthe 9910150CD@card@ cent10151NNcent issue10152NNissue .10153SENT. And10154CCand as10155INas we10156PPwe were10157VBDbe thinking10158VVGthink about10159INabout what10160WPwhat the10161DTthe implications10162NNSimplication of10163INof that10164WDTthat were10165VBDbe ,10166,, it10167PPit became10168VVDbecome clear10169JJclear to10170TOto us10171PPus that10172IN/thatthat that10173WDTthat meant10174VVDmean the10175DTthe app10176NPApp developer10177NNdeveloper could10178MDcould n't10179RBn't possibly10180RBpossibly be10181VBbe ...10182:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10183LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Sounds10184VVZsound kind10185NNkind of10186INof late10187JJlate in10188INin the10189DTthe day10190NNday ...10191:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10192LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] It10193PPit 's10194VBZbe another10195DTanother ...10196:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10197LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...10198:... to10199TOto come10200VVcome up10201RPup with10202INwith a10203DTa new10204JJnew litigation10205NNlitigation theory10206NNtheory .10207SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]10208LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well10209UHWell ,10210,, no10211UHno ,10212,, we10213PPwe 're10214VBPbe at10215INat a10216DTa pleadings10217NNSpleading stage10218NNstage ,10219,, Justice10220NPJustice Gorsuch10221NPGorsuch .10222SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10223LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] In10224INin the10225DTthe Supreme10226NPSupreme Court10227NPCourt ,10228,, a10229DTa blue10230JJblue brief10231NNbrief ,10232,, really10233RBreally ?10234SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10235LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well10236UHwell ,10237,, it10238PPit 's10239VBZbe their10240PP$their ...10241:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10242LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I10243PPI mean10244VVPmean ,10245,, should10246MDshould we10247PPwe be10248VBbe taking10249VVGtake that10250IN/thatthat up10251RBup now10252RBnow ?10253SENT? I10254PPI mean10255VVPmean ,10256,, maybe10257RBmaybe you10258PPyou can10259MDcan amend10260VVamend your10261PP$your complaint10262NNcomplaint or10263CCor something10264NNsomething like10265VVPlike that10266IN/thatthat on10267INon remand10268NNremand ,10269,, but10270CCbut should10271MDshould we10272PPwe be10273VBbe addressing10274VVGaddress that10275DTthat ?10276SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10277LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well10278UHWell ,10279,, Justice10280NPJustice Gorsuch10281NPGorsuch ,10282,, they10283PPthey were10284VBDbe the10285DTthe ones10286NNSone ,10287,, is10288VBZbe what10289WPwhat I10290PPI 'm10291VBPbe saying10292VVGsay ,10293,, that10294WDTthat brought10295VVDbring up10296RPup the10297DTthe 9910298CD@card@ cents10299NNScent .10300SENT. It10301PPit was10302VBDbe n't10303RBn't us10304PPus .10305SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10306LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But10307CCbut we10308PPwe 're10309VBPbe usually10310RBusually ...10311:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10312LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] It10313PPit 's10314VBZbe not10315RBnot ...10316:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]10317LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...10318:... a10319DTa court10320NNcourt of10321INof review10322NNreview ,10323,, not10324RBnot first10325JJfirst view10326NNview ,10327,, right10328RBright .10329SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]10330LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well10331UHWell ,10332,, no10333UHno ,10334,, our10335PP$our point10336NNpoint was10337VBDbe that10338IN/thatthat when10339WRBwhen they10340PPthey raised10341VVDraise the10342DTthe 9910343CD@card@ cents10344NNScent is10345VBZbe somehow10346RBsomehow proof10347JJproof that10348IN/thatthat the10349DTthe developer10350NNdeveloper actually10351RBactually gets10352VVZget to10353TOto set10354VVset the10355DTthe price10356NNprice ,10357,, we10358PPwe say10359VVPsay ,10360,, no10361RBno ,10362,, it10363PPit 's10364VBZbe actually10365RBactually irrelevant10366JJirrelevant for10367INfor the10368DTthe reasons10369NNSreason which10370WDTwhich I10371PPI 've10372VHPhave already10373RBalready stated10374VVNstate .10375SENT. But10376CCbut ,10377,, secondly10378RBsecondly ,10379,, it10380PPit 's10381VBZbe just10382RBjust wrong10383JJwrong because10384INbecause ,10385,, if10386INif you10387PPyou 're10388VBPbe constraining10389VVGconstrain what10390WPwhat 9910391CD@card@ percent10392NNpercent of10393INof the10394DTthe pricing10395NNpricing options10396NNSoption are10397VBPbe ,10398,, you10399PPyou know10400VVPknow ,10401,, that10402WDTthat ...10403:... that10404WDTthat 's10405VBZbe ...10406:... it10407PPit is10408VBZbe what10409WPwhat it10410PPit is10411VBZbe .10412SENT. But10413CCbut it10414PPit also10415RBalso has10416VHZhave the10417DTthe effect10418NNeffect economically10419RBeconomically of10420INof raising10421VVGraise the10422DTthe prices10423NNSprice ...10424:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10425LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] It10426PPit 's10427VBZbe going10428VVGgo to10429TOto ...10430:... [MR. FREDERICK]10431LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...10432:... that10433IN/thatthat the10434DTthe consumers10435NNSconsumer have10436VHPhave ...10437:... have10438VHPhave to10439TOto pay10440VVpay .10441SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10442LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] It10443PPit 's10444VBZbe going10445VVGgo to10446TOto add10447VVadd to10448TOto your10449PP$your damages10450NNSdamage ,10451,, correct10452JJcorrect ?10453SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10454LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Well10455UHwell ,10456,, it10457PPit ...10458:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10459LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Potentially10460RBpotentially .10461SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]10462LOC[MR. FREDERICK] ...10463:... it10464PPit could10465MDcould potentially10466RBpotentially add10467VVadd to10468TOto the10469DTthe damages10470NNSdamage or10471CCor it10472PPit could10473MDcould subtract10474VVsubtract from10475INfrom the10476DTthe damages10477NNSdamage .10478SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10479LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Correct10480JJcorrect .10481SENT. [MR. FREDERICK]10482LOC[MR. FREDERICK] We10483PPwe do10484VVPdo n't10485RBn't know10486VVknow .10487SENT. What10488WPWhat we10489PPwe know10490VVPknow is10491VBZbe what10492WPwhat the10493DTthe price10494NNprice is10495VBZbe in10496INin a10497DTa noncompetitive10498JJnoncompetitive market10499NNmarket ,10500,, and10501CCand we10502PPwe will10503MDwill have10504VHhave to10505TOto have10506VHhave experts10507NNSexpert that10508WDTthat will10509MDwill assess10510VVassess what10511WPwhat the10512DTthe damages10513NNSdamage would10514MDwould be10515VBbe in10516INin a10517DTa competitive10518JJcompetitive market10519NNmarket .10520SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10521LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Your10522PP$your theory10523NNtheory does10524VVZdo n't10525RBn't depend10526VVdepend on10527INon the10528DTthe 9910529CD@card@ cent10530NNcent ?10531SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10532LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Our10533PP$our theory10534NNtheory of10535INof damages10536NNSdamage or10537CCor our10538PP$our theory10539NNtheory of10540INof the10541DTthe violation10542NNviolation ?10543SENT? [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]10544LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well10545UHWell ,10546,, the10547DTthe ...10548:... [MR. FREDERICK]10549LOC[MR. FREDERICK] The10550DTthe theory10551NNtheory of10552INof the10553DTthe violation10554NNviolation is10555VBZbe the10556DTthe wholly-owned10557VVNwholly-own monopoly10558NNmonopoly App10559NPApp Store10560NPStore as10561INas the10562DTthe place10563NNplace to10564TOto sell10565VVsell apps10566NNSapps .10567SENT. That10568DTthat is10569VBZbe what10570WPwhat the10571DTthe violation10572NNviolation is10573VBZbe here10574RBhere .10575SENT. And10576CCand ...10577:... the10578DTthe ...10579:... how10580WRBhow you10581PPyou calculate10582VVPcalculate the10583DTthe damages10584NNSdamage is10585VBZbe you10586PPyou look10587VVPlook at10588INat what10589WPwhat is10590VBZbe the10591DTthe over-charge10592NNover-charge based10593VVNbase on10594INon what10595WPwhat the10596DTthe monopoly10597NNmonopoly is10598VBZbe selling10599VVGsell the10600DTthe app10601NPApp for10602INfor versus10603INversus what10604WPwhat it10605PPit would10606MDwould be10607VBbe sold10608VVNsell for10609INfor in10610INin a10611DTa competitive10612JJcompetitive market10613NNmarket .10614SENT. The10615DTthe antitrust10616JJantitrust scholars10617NNSscholar ,10618,, and10619CCand I10620PPI would10621MDwould direct10622VVdirect you10623PPyou to10624TOto page10625VVpage 2310626CD@card@ of10627INof their10628PP$their brief10629NNbrief ,10630,, they10631PPthey go10632VVPgo through10633INthrough a10634DTa lot10635NNlot of10636INof the10637DTthe pricing10638NNpricing scenarios10639NNSscenario that10640IN/thatthat you10641PPyou have10642VHPhave explored10643VVNexplore through10644INthrough hypotheticals10645NNShypotheticals here10646RBhere and10647CCand they10648PPthey make10649VVPmake very10650RBvery clear10651VVclear that10652IN/thatthat ,10653,, as10654INas a10655DTa matter10656NNmatter of10657INof function10658NNfunction ,10659,, what10660WPwhat is10661VBZbe happening10662VVGhappen here10663RBhere is10664VBZbe that10665IN/thatthat the10666DTthe monopoly10667NNmonopoly seller10668NNseller of10669INof the10670DTthe apps10671NNapps here10672RBhere is10673VBZbe extracting10674VVGextract an10675DTan over-charge10676NNover-charge from10677INfrom the10678DTthe purchasers10679NNSpurchaser who10680WPwho are10681VBPbe direct10682JJdirect purchasers10683NNSpurchaser of10684INof those10685DTthose apps10686NNSapps .10687SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]10688LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] If10689INif this10690DTthis case10691NNcase were10692VBDbe to10693TOto go10694VVgo to10695TOto trial10696NNtrial as10697INas a10698DTa class10699NNclass action10700NNaction ,10701,, would10702MDwould every10703DTevery app10704NPApp purchaser10705NNpurchaser potentially10706RBpotentially be10707VBbe entitled10708VVNentitle to10709TOto three10710CDthree times10711NNStime the10712DTthe 3010713CD@card@ percent10714NNpercent over-charge10715NNover-charge ,10716,, or10717CCor would10718MDwould it10719PPit depend10720VVdepend on10721INon the10722DTthe particular10723JJparticular app10724NPApp ?10725SENT? [MR. FREDERICK]10726LOC[MR. FREDERICK] Your10727PP$your Honor10728NPHonor ,10729,, I10730PPI ...10731:... I10732PPI think10733VVPthink that10734DTthat ...10735:... I10736PPI do10737VVPdo n't10738RBn't know10739VVknow the10740DTthe answer10741NNanswer to10742TOto your10743PP$your question10744NNquestion fully10745RBfully .10746SENT. I10747PPI 'll10748MDwill be10749VBbe candid10750JJcandid .10751SENT. I10752PPI have10753VHPhave not10754RBnot thought10755VVNthink about10756RBabout how10757WRBhow the10758DTthe experts10759NNSexpert are10760VBPbe actually10761RBactually going10762VVGgo to10763TOto try10764VVtry to10765TOto prove10766VVprove it10767PPit up10768RPup .10769SENT. What10770WPWhat I10771PPI would10772MDwould say10773VVsay ,10774,, though10775RBthough ,10776,, is10777VBZbe that10778IN/thatthat they10779PPthey 're10780VBPbe probably10781RBprobably ...10782:... what10783WPwhat will10784MDwill likely10785RBlikely happen10786VVhappen is10787VBZbe that10788IN/thatthat because10789INbecause there10790EXthere are10791VBPbe apps10792NNSapps that10793WDTthat are10794VBPbe sold10795VVNsell at10796INat 9910797CD@card@ cent10798NNcent ,10799,, a10800DTa huge10801JJhuge number10802NNnumber of10803INof them10804PPthem are10805VBPbe free10806JJfree ,10807,, but10808CCbut a10809DTa huge10810JJhuge number10811NNnumber are10812VBPbe sold10813VVNsell at10814INat 9910815CD@card@ cents10816NNScent ,10817,, some10818DTsome other10819JJother strata10820NNSstratum is10821VBZbe sold10822VVNsell for10823INfor $10824$$ 110825CD1 .10826SENT. 9910827CD@card@ ,10828,, some10829DTsome other10830JJother strata10831NNSstratum is10832VBZbe sold10833VVNsell for10834INfor $10835$$ 210836CD2 .10837SENT. 9910838CD@card@ or10839CCor $10840$$ 610841CD6 .10842SENT. 9910843CD@card@ ,10844,, and10845CCand I10846PPI have10847VHPhave n't10848RBn't put10849VVNput my10850PP$my head10851NNhead around10852RBaround ,10853,, to10854TOto be10855VBbe perfectly10856RBperfectly honest10857JJhonest ,10858,, exactly10859RBexactly how10860WRBhow you10861PPyou would10862MDwould carve10863VVcarve up10864RPup the10865DTthe damages10866NNSdamage on10867INon some10868DTsome sort10869NNsort of10870INof a10871DTa pro10872JJpro rata10873NNrata basis10874NNbasis .10875SENT. But10876CCbut the10877DTthe idea10878NNidea ,10879,, of10880INof course10881NNcourse ,10882,, of10883INof the10884DTthe Clayton10885NPClayton Act10886NPAct is10887VBZbe that10888IN/thatthat treble10889JJtreble damages10890NNSdamage is10891VBZbe designed10892VVNdesign to10893TOto deter10894VVdeter antitrust10895JJantitrust violations10896NNSviolation .10897SENT. And10898CCand so10899INso this10900DTthis Court10901NPCourt has10902VHZhave made10903VVNmake very10904RBvery clear10905JJclear in10906INin its10907PP$its cases10908NNScase that10909IN/thatthat the10910DTthe point10911NNpoint of10912INof having10913VHGhave that10914DTthat deterrence10915NNdeterrence is10916VBZbe to10917TOto avoid10918VVavoid having10919VHGhave the10920DTthe monopolist10921NNmonopolist in10922INin this10923DTthis case10924NNcase act10925NNact in10926INin a10927DTa way10928NNway that10929IN/thatthat it10930PPit 's10931VBZbe not10932RBnot penalized10933VVNpenalize for10934INfor its10935PP$its monopoly10936NNmonopoly behavior10937NNbehavior .10938SENT. And10939CCand if10940INif you10941PPyou were10942VBDbe to10943TOto suppose10944VVsuppose that10945IN/thatthat it10946PPit was10947VBDbe just10948RBjust a10949DTa single10950JJsingle damages10951NNSdamage problem10952NNproblem ,10953,, it10954PPit would10955MDwould be10956VBbe easy10957JJeasy for10958INfor monopolists10959NNSmonopolist to10960TOto simply10961RBsimply act10962VVact ,10963,, and10964CCand ,10965,, if10966INif they10967PPthey get10968VVPget caught10969VVNcatch ,10970,, they10971PPthey just10972RBjust simply10973RBsimply pay10974VVpay over10975RPover what10976WPwhat they10977PPthey caused10978VVDcause in10979INin damage10980NNdamage ,10981,, but10982CCbut the10983DTthe idea10984NNidea behind10985INbehind the10986DTthe Clayton10987NPClayton Act10988NPAct 's10989POS's treble10990JJtreble damages10991NNSdamage remedy10992NNremedy is10993VBZbe designed10994VVNdesign to10995TOto deter10996VVdeter actions10997NNSaction just10998RBjust like10999INlike this11000DTthis .11001SENT. And11002CCand that11003DTthat is11004VBZbe why11005WRBwhy Apple11006NPApple cannot11007MDcan point11008VVpoint to11009TOto another11010DTanother e-commerce11011NPe-commerce distributor11012NNdistributor that11013WDTthat does11014VVZdo what11015WPwhat it11016PPit does11017VVZdo .11018SENT. In11019INin every11020DTevery other11021JJother instance11022NNinstance ,11023,, as11024INas we11025PPwe point11026VVPpoint out11027RPout in11028INin the11029DTthe red11030JJred brief11031NNbrief ,11032,, there11033EXthere is11034VBZbe an11035DTan alternative11036NNalternative to11037TOto buying11038VVGbuy the11039DTthe product11040NNproduct .11041SENT. And11042CCand ,11043,, in11044INin fact11045NNfact ,11046,, Apple11047NPApple does11048VVZdo n't11049RBn't even11050RBeven do11051VVdo this11052DTthis with11053INwith its11054PP$its own11055JJown computer11056NNcomputer software11057NNsoftware .11058SENT. And11059CCand we11060PPwe have11061VHPhave pleaded11062VVNplead that11063IN/thatthat in11064INin the11065DTthe complaint11066NNcomplaint ,11067,, Mr11068NPMr .11069SENT. Chief11070NPChief Justice11071NPJustice ,11072,, where11073WRBwhere we11074PPwe say11075VVPsay that11076IN/thatthat ,11077,, if11078INif you11079PPyou buy11080VVPbuy software11081NNsoftware ,11082,, you11083PPyou can11084MDcan buy11085VVbuy it11086PPit open11087VVopen source11088NNsource and11089CCand you11090PPyou do11091VVPdo not11092RBnot have11093VHhave to11094TOto buy11095VVbuy it11096PPit through11097INthrough Apple11098NPApple 's11099POS's monopoly11100NNmonopoly chain11101NNchain .11102SENT. So11103INso the11104DTthe iPhone11105JJiPhone app11106NPApp monopoly11107NNmonopoly App11108NPApp Store11109NPStore is11110VBZbe a11111DTa unique11112JJunique feature11113NNfeature of11114INof the11115DTthe e-commerce11116NPe-commerce setting11117NNsetting .11118SENT. Apple11119NPApple has11120VHZhave found11121VVNfind ways11122NNSway using11123VVGuse technology11124NNtechnology and11125CCand contractual11126JJcontractual constraints11127NNSconstraint to11128TOto limit11129VVlimit the11130DTthe opportunity11131NNopportunity of11132INof a11133DTa competitive11134JJcompetitive market11135NNmarket to11136TOto flourish11137VVflourish .11138SENT. If11139INif a11140DTa competitive11141JJcompetitive market11142NNmarket did11143VVDdo flourish11144VVflourish ,11145,, the11146DTthe prices11147NNSprice that11148IN/thatthat iPhone11149NNiPhone owners11150NNSowner pay11151VVPpay would11152MDwould be11153VBbe lower11154JJRlow .11155SENT. Thank11156VVthank you11157PPyou .11158SENT. counsel11159NNcounsel .11160SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11161LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank11162VVthank you11163PPyou ,11164,, Three11165CDThree minutes11166NNSminute ,11167,, Mr11168NPMr .11169SENT. Wall11170NPWall .11171SENT.

[MR. D.M. WALL]11172LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Thank11173VVthank you11174PPyou ,11175,, Mr11176NPMr .11177SENT. Chief11178NPChief Justice11179NPJustice .11180SENT. I11181PPI think11182VVPthink I11183PPI need11184VVPneed to11185TOto begin11186VVbegin with11187INwith the11188DTthe experience11189NNexperience I11190PPI had11191VHDhave in11192INin this11193DTthis case11194NNcase for11195INfor its11196PP$its first11197JJfirst nine11198CDnine years11199NNSyear ,11200,, and11201CCand that11202WDTthat is11203VBZbe it11204PPit was11205VBDbe about11206RBabout a11207DTa percent11208NNpercent commission11209NNcommission .11210SENT. Paragraph11211NNparagraph 4811212CD@card@ of11213INof the11214DTthe complaint11215NNcomplaint is11216VBZbe ...11217:... is11218VBZbe ...11219:... is11220VBZbe the11221DTthe key11222JJkey allegation11223NNallegation ,11224,, which11225WDTwhich is11226VBZbe the11227DTthe root11228NNroot of11229INof the11230DTthe damages11231NNSdamage theory11232NNtheory ,11233,, which11234WDTwhich maintains11235VVZmaintain that11236IN/thatthat the11237DTthe percent11238NNpercent commission11239NNcommission is11240VBZbe a11241DTa monopoly11242NNmonopoly price11243NNprice .11244SENT. It11245PPit 's11246VHZhave called11247VVNcall a11248DTa monopoly11249NNmonopoly price11250NNprice .11251SENT. It11252PPit 's11253VBZbe elsewhere11254RBelsewhere called11255VVNcall a11256DTa super-competitive11257JJsuper-competitive price11258NNprice .11259SENT. It11260PPit is11261VBZbe the11262DTthe root11263NNroot of11264INof the11265DTthe damages11266NNSdamage theory11267NNtheory not11268RBnot just11269RBjust in11270INin part11271NNpart ,11272,, not11273RBnot just11274RBjust on11275INon the11276DTthe periphery11277NNperiphery ,11278,, but11279CCbut entirely11280RBentirely .11281SENT. The11282DTthe brief11283NNbrief in11284INin opposition11285NNopposition at11286INat ...11287:... at11288INat pages11289NNSpage and11290CCand 1211291CD@card@ make11292VVPmake this11293DTthis unmistakably11294RBunmistakably clear11295JJclear .11296SENT. At11297INat ...11298:... at11299INat page11300NNpage 511301CD5 ,11302,, the11303DTthe brief11304NNbrief in11305INin opposition11306NNopposition states11307NNSstate :11308:: "11309``" Respondents11310NNSrespondent seek11311VVPseek damages11312NNSdamage based11313VVNbase solely11314RBsolely on11315INon the11316DTthe percent11317NNpercent markup11318NNmarkup .11319SENT. "11320``" So11321INso whatever11322WDTwhatever other11323JJother attributes11324NNSattribute of11325INof this11326DTthis case11327NNcase one11328PPone may11329MDmay want11330VVwant to11331TOto talk11332VVtalk about11333RBabout that11334WDTthat might11335MDmight contribute11336VVcontribute to11337TOto the11338DTthe liability11339NNliability theory11340NNtheory ,11341,, the11342DTthe injury11343NNinjury theory11344NNtheory ,11345,, the11346DTthe damages11347NNSdamage theory11348NNtheory ,11349,, is11350VBZbe ,11351,, in11352INin their11353PP$their words11354NNSword ,11355,, solely11356RBsolely about11357INabout the11358DTthe ...11359:... the11360DTthe 3011361CD@card@ percent11362NNpercent .11363SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]11364LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Mr11365NPMr .11366SENT. Wall11367NPWall ,11368,, I11369PPI have11370VHPhave a11371DTa question11372NNquestion about11373INabout this11374DTthis Court11375NPCourt 's11376POS's case11377NNcase law11378NNlaw ,11379,, and11380CCand I'd11381NNI'd ...11382:... I11383PPI 'd11384MDwould like11385VVlike your11386PP$your answer11387NNanswer to11388TOto it11389PPit .11390SENT. If11391INif Apple11392NPApple had11393VHDhave in11394INin every11395DTevery agreement11396NNagreement with11397INwith an11398DTan iPhone11399NNiPhone owner11400NNowner a11401DTa provision11402NNprovision that11403IN/thatthat you11404PPyou can11405MDcan sue11406VVsue ...11407:... you11408PPyou can11409MDcan 't11410RB't sue11411VVsue ,11412,, you11413PPyou have11414VHPhave to11415TOto go11416VVgo to11417TOto an11418DTan arbitrable11419JJarbitrable forum11420NNforum in11421INin a11422DTa one-by-one11423JJone-by-one ...11424:... [MR. D.M. WALL]11425LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Yes11426NPYes .11427SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]11428LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...11429:... then11430RBthen Apple11431NPApple would11432MDwould be11433VBbe home11434RBhome free11435JJfree in11436INin this11437DTthis case11438NNcase ?11439SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]11440LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] We11441PPwe ...11442:... we11443PPwe do11444VVPdo not11445RBnot have11446VHhave such11447PDTsuch a11448DTa provision11449NNprovision .11450SENT. In11451INin fact11452NNfact ,11453,, the11454DTthe ...11455:... all11456DTall of11457INof the11458DTthe relevant11459JJrelevant agreements11460NNSagreement with11461INwith both11462DTboth developers11463NNSdeveloper and11464CCand consumers11465NNSconsumer state11466NNstate that11467WDTthat ...11468:... that11469IN/thatthat there11470EXthere shall11471MDshall be11472VBbe litigation11473NNlitigation in11474INin the11475DTthe Northern11476NPNorthern District11477NPDistrict of11478INof California11479NPCalifornia .11480SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]11481LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Yeah11482UHYeah ,11483,, I11484PPI ...11485:... I11486PPI know11487VVPknow ...11488:... I11489PPI know11490VVPknow you11491PPyou do11492VVPdo n't11493RBn't ,11494,, but11495CCbut suppose11496VVPsuppose you11497PPyou did11498VVDdo .11499SENT. [MR. D.M. WALL]11500LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] If11501INif ...11502:... if11503INif that11504WDTthat were11505VBDbe the11506DTthe case11507NNcase ,11508,, then11509RBthen this11510DTthis would11511MDwould be11512VBbe a11513DTa matter11514NNmatter for11515INfor arbitration11516NNarbitration ,11517,, and11518CCand I11519PPI do11520VVPdo n't11521RBn't think11522VVthink it11523PPit changes11524VVZchange the11525DTthe legal11526JJlegal question11527NNquestion .11528SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]11529LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] And11530CCand ...11531:... and11532CCand it11533PPit would11534MDwould take11535VVtake this11536DTthis case11537NNcase out11538RPout of11539INof this11540DTthis Court11541NPCourt ,11542,, put11543VVDput it11544PPit in11545INin an11546DTan arbitrable11547JJarbitrable forum11548NNforum ,11549,, with11550INwith a11551DTa single11552JJsingle complainant11553NNcomplainant ?11554SENT? [MR. D.M. WALL]11555LOC[MR. D.M. WALL] Indeed11556RBindeed ,11557,, it11558PPit ...11559:... it11560PPit would11561MDwould ,11562,, but11563CCbut that11564DTthat 's11565VBZbe not11566RBnot this11567DTthis case11568NNcase .11569SENT. There11570EXthere is11571VBZbe ...11572:... there11573EXthere is11574VBZbe no11575DTno concern11576NNconcern about11577INabout that11578DTthat in11579INin this11580DTthis case11581NNcase .11582SENT. The11583DTthe second11584JJsecond point11585NNpoint that11586IN/thatthat I11587PPI want11588VVPwant to11589TOto make11590VVmake is11591VBZbe ...11592:... relates11593VVZrelate to11594TOto this11595DTthis duplicative11596JJduplicative recovery11597NNrecovery possibility11598NNpossibility .11599SENT. It11600PPit ...11601:... there11602EXthere is11603VBZbe ...11604:... we11605PPwe never11606RBnever heard11607VVDhear any11608DTany suggestion11609NNsuggestion prior11610RBprior to11611TOto the11612DTthe Respondents11613NNSrespondent '11614POS' merits11615NNSmerit brief11616JJbrief about11617INabout potential11618JJpotential lost11619VVNlose profits11620NNSprofit claims11621NNSclaim based11622VVNbase upon11623INupon monopsony11624NNmonopsony .11625SENT. To11626TOTo the11627DTthe contrary11628NNcontrary ,11629,, the11630DTthe theory11631NNtheory throughout11632INthroughout the11633DTthe life11634NNlife of11635INof this11636DTthis case11637NNcase is11638VBZbe that11639DTthat ...11640:... that11641IN/thatthat developers11642NNSdeveloper ,11643,, if11644INif they11645PPthey sued11646VVDsue ,11647,, would11648MDwould sue11649VVsue over11650INover the11651DTthe same11652JJsame 3011653CD@card@ percent11654NNpercent markup11655NNmarkup .11656SENT. The11657DTthe brief11658NNbrief in11659INin opposition11660NNopposition at11661INat 1211662CD@card@ says11663VVZsay any11664DTany claim11665NNclaim by11666INby the11667DTthe app11668NPApp 's11669POS's developers11670NNSdeveloper ...11671:... excuse11672VVexcuse me11673PPme ...11674:... a11675DTa claim11676NNclaim by11677INby the11678DTthe app11679NPApp 's11680POS's developers11681NNSdeveloper ,11682,, even11683RBeven if11684INif they11685PPthey had11686VHDhave one11687CDone ,11688,, would11689MDwould not11690RBnot overlap11691VVoverlap the11692DTthe 3011693CD@card@ percent11694NNpercent markup11695NNmarkup paid11696VVNpay by11697INby app11698NPApp 's11699POS's purchasers11700NNSpurchaser .11701SENT. Rather11702RBrather ,11703,, it11704PPit is11705VBZbe a11706DTa piece11707NNpiece of11708INof the11709DTthe same11710JJsame percent11711NNpercent pie11712NNpie .11713SENT. So11714RBso going11715VVGgo back11716RBback to11717TOto what11718WPwhat is11719VBZbe Illinois11720NPIllinois Brick11721NPBrick about11722RBabout ,11723,, it11724PPit is11725VBZbe about11726INabout not11727RBnot having11728VHGhave that11729DTthat apportionment11730NNapportionment fight11731NNfight .11732SENT. They11733PPthey admitted11734VVDadmit to11735TOto the11736DTthe ...11737:... to11738TOto the11739DTthe time11740NNtime that11741IN/thatthat this11742DTthis case11743NNcase was11744VBDbe on11745INon this11746DTthis Court11747NPCourt 's11748POS's doorstep11749NNdoorstep that11750IN/thatthat this11751DTthis is11752VBZbe all11753RBall about11754INabout an11755DTan apportionment11756NNapportionment fight11757NNfight between11758INbetween the11759DTthe developers11760NNSdeveloper .11761SENT. As11762RBas ...11763:... as11764RBas to11765TOto the11766DTthe ...11767:... the11768DTthe ...11769:... the11770DTthe ...11771:... which11772WDTwhich is11773VBZbe the11774DTthe better11775JJRgood rule11776NNrule ,11777,, the11778DTthe formalistic11779JJformalistic rule11780NNrule or11781CCor the11782DTthe substantive11783JJsubstantive rule11784NNrule ,11785,, I11786PPI suggest11787VVPsuggest that11788DTthat ...11789:... that11790IN/thatthat the11791DTthe formalistic11792JJformalistic rule11793NNrule is11794VBZbe always11795RBalways the11796DTthe one11797CDone that11798WDTthat is11799VBZbe most11800RBSmost subject11801JJsubject to11802TOto manipulation11803NNmanipulation .11804SENT. The11805DTthe substantive11806JJsubstantive rule11807NNrule that11808WDTthat asks11809VVZask is11810VBZbe your11811PP$your damages11812NNSdamage theory11813NNtheory a11814DTa pass-on11815NNpass-on theory11816NNtheory focuses11817VVZfocus on11818INon what11819WPwhat is11820VBZbe of11821INof economic11822JJeconomic substance11823NNsubstance .11824SENT. And11825CCand ,11826,, here11827RBhere ,11828,, that11829WDTthat 's11830VBZbe what11831WPwhat the11832DTthe district11833NNdistrict court11834NNcourt judge11835NNjudge did11836VVDdo .11837SENT. In11838RBin ...11839:... in11840INin a11841DTa patient11842NNpatient but11843CCbut persistent11844JJpersistent manner11845NNmanner ,11846,, she11847PPshe required11848VVDrequire them11849PPthem to11850TOto say11851VVsay what11852WPwhat is11853VBZbe your11854PP$your theory11855NNtheory .11856SENT. And11857CCand it11858PPit ...11859:... and11860CCand at11861INat JA11862NPJa 13711863CD@card@ to11864TOto 14311865CD@card@ ,11866,, you11867PPyou see11868VVPsee the11869DTthe transcript11870NNtranscript of11871INof the11872DTthe district11873NNdistrict court11874NNcourt argument11875NNargument when11876WRBwhen ...11877:... when11878WRBwhen ,11879,, finally11880RBfinally ,11881,, at11882INat JA11883NPJa 14111884CD@card@ ,11885,, they11886PPthey said11887VVDsay ...11888:... or11889CCor 14311890CD@card@ ,11891,, rather11892RBrather ...11893:... they11894PPthey said11895VVDsay their11896PP$their theory11897NNtheory is11898VBZbe that11899IN/thatthat ,11900,, because11901INbecause of11902INof the11903DTthe commission11904NNcommission ,11905,, the11906DTthe developer11907NNdeveloper would11908MDwould mark11909VVmark up11910RPup the11911DTthe app11912NPApp .11913SENT. That11914DTthat is11915VBZbe a11916DTa classic11917JJclassic over-charge11918NNover-charge case11919NNcase .11920SENT. Now11921RBnow ,11922,, to11923TOto be11924VBbe sure11925JJsure ,11926,, in11927INin a11928DTa new11929JJnew setting11930NNsetting ,11931,, it11932PPit 's11933VBZbe a11934DTa new11935JJnew world11936NNworld setting11937NNsetting .11938SENT. It11939PPit 's11940VBZbe not11941RBnot the11942DTthe brick-and-mortar11943NPbrick-and-mortar setting11944NNsetting of11945INof the11946DTthe three11947CDthree cases11948NNScase that11949IN/thatthat this11950DTthis case11951NNcase ...11952:... that11953IN/thatthat this11954DTthis Court11955NPCourt has11956VHZhave decided11957VVNdecide before11958RBbefore .11959SENT. But11960CCbut it11961PPit is11962VBZbe the11963DTthe same11964JJsame economics11965NNSeconomics that11966WDTthat should11967MDshould have11968VHhave the11969DTthe same11970JJsame outcome11971NNoutcome prohibiting11972VVGprohibit pass-through11973JJpass-through damages11974NNSdamage claims11975NNSclaim .11976SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11977LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank11978VVthank you11979PPyou ,11980,, counsel11981NNcounsel .11982SENT. The11983DTthe case11984NNcase is11985VBZbe submitted11986VVNsubmit .11987SENT.