[MR. KNEEDLER]21LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Mr22NPMr .23SENT. Chief24NPChief Justice25NPJustice ,26,, and27CCand may28MDmay it29PPit please30VVplease the31DTthe Court32NPCourt :33:: Section34NPSection 1395hh35NP1395hh did36VVDdo not37RBnot require38VVrequire CMS39NPCMS to40TOto go41VVgo through42INthrough notice-and-comment43NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking44VVGrulemak before45INbefore it46PPit could47MDcould furnish48VVfurnish its49PP$its calculation50NNcalculation of51INof one52CDone component53NNcomponent of54INof a55DTa hospital56NNhospital 's57POS's reimbursement58NNreimbursement to59TOto the60DTthe contractors61NNScontractor that62WDTthat perform63VVPperform the64DTthe initial65JJinitial determination66NNdetermination of67INof reimbursement68NNreimbursement for69INfor the70DTthe agency71NNagency .72SENT. That73DTthat calculation74NNcalculation was75VBDbe not76RBnot binding77VVGbind on78INon the79DTthe agency80NNagency ,81,, the82DTthe courts83NNScourt ,84,, or85CCor Respondents86NNSrespondent ,87,, and88CCand it89PPit could90MDcould be91VBbe challenged92VVNchallenge on93INon administrative94JJadministrative appeal95NNappeal ,96,, as97RBas ,98,, in99INin fact100NNfact ,101,, Respondents102NNSrespondent did103VVDdo here104RBhere .105SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]106LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I107PPI have108VHPhave a109DTa ...110:... a111DTa sort112NNsort of113INof problem114NNproblem with115INwith this116DTthis .117SENT. And118CCand I119PPI know120VVPknow you121PPyou say122VVPsay that123IN/thatthat ,124,, but125CCbut I126PPI do127VVPdo n't128RBn't know129VVknow how130WRBhow you131PPyou take132VVPtake this133DTthis outside134NNoutside of135INof being136VBGbe a137DTa policy138NNpolicy ,139,, meaning140VVGmean it141PPit 's142VBZbe applying143VVGapply to144TOto every145DTevery single146JJsingle provider147NNprovider uniformly148RBuniformly .149SENT. I150PPI do151VVPdo n't152RBn't know153VVknow the154DTthe basis155NNbasis that156IN/thatthat you157PPyou could158MDcould have159VHhave a160DTa individual161JJindividual adjudication162NNadjudication .163SENT. And164CCand what165WPwhat would166MDwould happen167VVhappen ?168SENT? The169DTthe board170NNboard would171MDwould look172VVlook at173INat it174PPit and175CCand say176VVPsay we177PPwe 're178VBPbe not179RBnot going180VVGgo to181TOto listen182VVlisten ,183,, even184RBeven though185INthough we186PPwe 're187VBPbe required188VVNrequire to189TOto listen190VVlisten ,191,, to192TOto the193DTthe agency194NNagency 's195POS's position196NNposition ;197:; we198PPwe 're199VBPbe going200VVGgo to201TOto tell202VVtell them203PPthem they204PPthey 're205VBPbe wrong206JJwrong ?207SENT? If208INif one209CDone case210NNcase tells211VVZtell you212PPyou the213DTthe agency214NNagency is215VBZbe wrong216JJwrong ,217,, does218VVZdo that219IN/thatthat case220NNcase then221RBthen become222VVNbecome the223DTthe new224JJnew policy225NNpolicy ?226SENT? Or227CCor ...228:... or229CCor are230VBPbe you231PPyou ...232:... I233PPI 'm234VBPbe a235DTa little236RBlittle lost237VVNlose as238INas to239TOto how240WRBhow this241DTthis is242VBZbe not243RBnot a244DTa agency245NNagency policy246NNpolicy .247SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]248LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] So249INso several250JJseveral points251NNSpoint .252SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]253LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] A254DTa statement255NNstatement of256INof policy257NNpolicy .258SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]259LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Several260JJseveral points261NNSpoint ,262,, Justice263NPJustice Sotomayor264NPSotomayor .265SENT. And266CCand the267DTthe ...268:... the269DTthe first270JJfirst is271VBZbe that272IN/thatthat we273PPwe are274VBPbe relying275VVGrely on276INon the277DTthe operative278JJoperative language279NNlanguage in280INin 1395hh281NP1395hh ,282,, whether283INwhether it284PPit 's285VHZhave called286VVNcall a287DTa ...288:... whether289INwhether the290DTthe issuance291NNissuance is292VBZbe called293VVNcall a294DTa policy295NNpolicy or296CCor a297DTa requirement298NNrequirement or299CCor whatever300WDTwhatever the301DTthe agency302NNagency calls303VVZcall it304PPit .305SENT. It306PPit is307VBZbe only308JJonly ...309:... it310PPit only311RBonly triggers312VVZtrigger notice-and-comment313NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking314VVGrulemak if315INif it316PPit establishes317VVZestablish or318CCor changes319VVZchange a320DTa substantive321JJsubstantive legal322JJlegal standard323NNstandard .324SENT. And325CCand that326DTthat is327VBZbe the328DTthe ...329:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]330LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well331UHWell ,332,, that333WDTthat 's334VBZbe what335WPwhat I'm336NPI'm ...337:... that338WDTthat 's339VBZbe what340WPwhat I341PPI 'm342VBPbe having343VHGhave a344DTa problem345NNproblem with346INwith .347SENT. It348PPit 's349VBZbe every350DTevery single351JJsingle provider352NNprovider is353VBZbe going354VVGgo to355TOto be356VBbe given357VVNgive a358DTa fraction359NNfraction that360WDTthat incorporates361VVZincorporate your362PP$your policy363NNpolicy ,364,, and365CCand that366IN/thatthat binds367NNSbind what368WPwhat they369PPthey 're370VBPbe going371VVGgo to372TOto get373VVget .374SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]375LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] No376NPNo ,377,, it378PPit ...379:... it380PPit ...381:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]382LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Because383INbecause they384PPthey have385VHPhave to386TOto use387VVuse that388DTthat fraction389NNfraction in390INin the391DTthe claims392NNSclaim they393PPthey made394VVDmake against395INagainst you396PPyou .397SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]398LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] It399PPit ...400:... it401PPit only402RBonly governs403VVZgovern what404WPwhat the405DTthe contractor406NNcontractor does407VVZdo .408SENT. The409DTthe contractor410NNcontractor is411VBZbe just412RBjust like413INlike an414DTan agency415NNagency employee416NNemployee ,417,, making418VVGmake determinations419NNSdetermination on420INon behalf421NNbehalf of422INof the423DTthe agency424NNagency at425INat the426DTthe first427JJfirst step428NNstep .429SENT. When430WRBwhen ...431:... when432WRBwhen the433DTthe ...434:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]435LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] From436INfrom you437PPyou ...438:... from439INfrom the440DTthe contractor441NNcontractor ,442,, from443INfrom the444DTthe agency445NNagency ,446,, they447PPthey 're448VBPbe only449RBonly going450VVGgo to451TOto get452VVget the453DTthe fraction454NNfraction as455INas you456PPyou told457VVDtell the458DTthe contractor459NNcontractor to460TOto calculate461VVcalculate it462PPit .463SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]464LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Only465RBonly if466INif they467PPthey do468VVPdo n't469RBn't appeal470VVappeal .471SENT. And472CCand ...473:... and474CCand as475RBas ...476:... as477INas we478PPwe point479VVPpoint out480RBout ...481:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]482LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I483PPI ...484:... I485PPI just486RBjust do487VVPdo n't488RBn't understand489VVunderstand what490WPwhat difference491NNdifference it492PPit means493VVZmean ...494:... it495PPit means496VVZmean ...497:... I498PPI mean499VVPmean ,500,, even501RBeven a502DTa regulation503NNregulation or504CCor a505DTa rule506NNrule may507MDmay have508VHhave legal509JJlegal meaning510NNmeaning only511RBonly until512INuntil it513PPit 's514VBZbe accepted515VVNaccept ,516,, but517CCbut even518RBeven a519DTa rule520NNrule can521MDcan be522VBbe challenged523VVNchallenge later524RBRlater on525INon appeal526NNappeal .527SENT. The528DTthe grounds529NNSground for530INfor that531DTthat challenge532NNchallenge might533MDmight be534VBbe different535JJdifferent ,536,, but537CCbut I538PPI can539MDcan go540VVgo into541INinto court542NNcourt and543CCand say544VVsay it545PPit 's546POS's ultra547JJultra vires548NNSvire .549SENT. I550PPI can551MDcan go552VVgo into553INinto court554NNcourt and555CCand say556VVPsay it557PPit 's558VBZbe not559RBnot supported560VVNsupport by561INby the562DTthe statute563NNstatute .564SENT. It565PPit 's566VBZbe not567RBnot binding568VVGbind in569INin ...570:... in571INin any572DTany meaningful573JJmeaningful way574NNway ,575,, other576JJother than577INthan that578DTthat 's579VBZbe what580WPwhat the581DTthe agency582NNagency 's583VBZbe going584VVGgo to585TOto do586VVdo .587SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]588LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well589UHWell ,590,, if591INif I592PPI ...593:... if594INif I595PPI may596MDmay ,597,, in598INin our599PP$our view600NNview ,601,, 1395hh602NP1395hh codifies603VVZcodify for604INfor the605DTthe Medicare606NPMedicare program607NNprogram what608WPwhat this609DTthis Court610NPCourt referred611VVDrefer to612TOto in613INin Chrysler614NPChrysler Corporation615NPCorporation as616INas the617DTthe central618JJcentral distinction619NNdistinction in620INin the621DTthe APA622NPAPA between623INbetween substantive624JJsubstantive and625CCand interpretive626JJinterpretive rules627NNSrule .628SENT. And629CCand this630DTthis Court631NPCourt in632INin Guernsey633NPGuernsey ...634:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]635LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well636UHWell ,637,, the638DTthe problem639NNproblem I640PPI have641VHPhave is642VBZbe that643IN/thatthat the644DTthe provision645NNprovision adds646VVZadd something647NNsomething .648SENT. It649PPit 's650VBZbe not651RBnot just652RBjust rule653NNrule or654CCor regulation655NNregulation ;656:; it657PPit 's658POS's statement659NNstatement of660INof policy661NNpolicy .662SENT. And663CCand it664PPit seems665VVZseem to666TOto suggest667VVsuggest to668TOto me669PPme that670IN/thatthat there671EXthere 's672VBZbe some673DTsome interpretive674JJinterpretive rules675NNSrule that676WDTthat are677VBPbe encompassed678VVNencompass by679INby that680DTthat .681SENT. Now682RBnow which683WDTwhich ones684NNSone is685VBZbe the686DTthe open687JJopen question688NNquestion .689SENT. But690CCbut it691PPit does692VVZdo seem693VVseem to694TOto suggest695VVsuggest that696IN/thatthat it697PPit 's698VBZbe broader699JJRbroad than700INthan the701DTthe APA702NPAPA ever703RBever was704VBDbe ,705,, because706INbecause the707DTthe APA708NPAPA only709JJonly talks710NNStalk about711INabout rules712NNSrule .713SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]714LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well715UHWell ,716,, again717RBagain ,718,, several719JJseveral points720NNSpoint ...721:... several722JJseveral points723NNSpoint about724INabout that725DTthat .726SENT. This727DTthis Court728NPCourt 's729POS's decision730NNdecision in731INin Guernsey732NPGuernsey Memorial733NPMemorial Hospital734NPHospital ,735,, which736WDTwhich described737VVDdescribe the738DTthe general739JJgeneral APA740NPAPA standards741NNSstandard ,742,, distinguished743VVNdistinguish between744INbetween substantive745JJsubstantive rules746NNSrule and747CCand interpretive748JJinterpretive rules749NNSrule .750SENT. And751CCand the752DTthe interpretive753JJinterpretive rule754NNrule there755EXthere was756VBDbe something757NNsomething in758INin the759DTthe provider760NNprovider reimbursement761NNreimbursement manual762NNmanual which763WDTwhich ,764,, just765RBjust as766INas here767RBhere ,768,, bound769VVNbind the770DTthe contractor771NNcontractor but772CCbut could773MDcould be774VBbe changed775VVNchange ...776:... or777CCor could778MDcould be779VBbe challenged780VVNchallenge ...781:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]782LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr783NPMr .784SENT. Kneedler785NPKneedler ,786,, why787WRBwhy did788VVDdo n't789RBn't ...790:... [MR. KNEEDLER]791LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...792:... and793CCand set794VVDset aside795RPaside on796INon appeal797NNappeal .798SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]799LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...800:... why801WRBwhy did802VVDdo n't803RBn't Congress804NPCongress just805RBjust say806VVPsay this807DTthis is808VBZbe like809INlike the810DTthe APA811NPAPA ?812SENT? Why813WRBwhy does814VVZdo it815PPit change816VVchange the817DTthe language818NNlanguage at819INat all820DTall ?821SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]822LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well823UHWell ...824:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]825LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I826PPI have827VHPhave to828TOto give829VVgive some830DTsome meaning831NNmeaning different832JJdifferent than833INthan the834DTthe APA835NPAPA to836TOto Congress837NPCongress 's838POS's express839JJexpress choice840NNchoice of841INof a842DTa different843JJdifferent articulation844NNarticulation of845INof the846DTthe standard847NNstandard .848SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]849LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well850UHWell ,851,, first852JJfirst of853INof all854DTall ,855,, when856WRBwhen ...857:... when858WRBwhen Congress859NPCongress first860RBfirst enacted861VVDenact the862DTthe provisions863NNSprovision or864CCor amended865VVDamend the866DTthe provisions867NNSprovision in868INin the869DTthe rulemaking870VVGrulemak in871INin 1986872CD@card@ ,873,, it874PPit said875VVDsay certain876JJcertain regulations877NNSregulation ...878:... regulations879NNSregulation have880VHPhave to881TOto go882VVgo through883INthrough notice884NNnotice and885CCand comment886NNcomment .887SENT. It888PPit did889VVDdo n't890RBn't define891VVdefine regulation892NNregulation at893INat that894DTthat point895NNpoint .896SENT. But897CCbut the898DTthe conference899NNconference report900NNreport said901VVDsay this902DTthis does903VVZdo not904RBnot require905VVrequire notice-and-comment906NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking907VVGrulemak for908INfor interpretive909JJinterpretive rules910NNSrule or911CCor other912JJother things913NNSthing that914WDTthat are915VBPbe not916RBnot now917RBnow subject918JJsubject to919TOto that920DTthat requirement921NNrequirement .922SENT. Then923RBthen ,924,, in925INin 1987926CD@card@ ,927,, Congress928NPCongress revisited929VVDrevisit the930DTthe ...931:... the932DTthe provision933NNprovision .934SENT. And935CCand if936INif you937PPyou look938VVPlook at939INat page940NNpage 34941CD@card@ of942INof our943PP$our brief944NNbrief ,945,, we946PPwe ...947:... we948PPwe set949VVDset out950RPout the951DTthe House952NPHouse version953NNversion ,954,, the955DTthe version956NNversion that957WDTthat was958VBDbe passed959VVNpass by960INby the961DTthe House962NPHouse ,963,, and964CCand then965RBthen ...966:... and967CCand contrast968VVPcontrast that969IN/thatthat to970TOto the971DTthe version972NNversion that973WDTthat was974VBDbe finally975RBfinally enacted976VVNenact .977SENT. The978DTthe House979NPHouse ...980:... the981DTthe House982NPHouse version983NNversion said984VVDsay no985DTno rule986NNrule requirement987NNrequirement or988CCor other989JJother statement990NNstatement of991INof policy992NNpolicy that993WDTthat has994VHZhave or995CCor may996MDmay have997VHhave a998DTa significant999JJsignificant effect1000NNeffect on1001INon the1002DTthe payment1003NNpayment for1004INfor services1005NNSservice can1006MDcan go1007VVgo into1008INinto effect1009NNeffect unless1010INunless promulgated1011VVNpromulgate through1012INthrough notice-and-comment1013NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking1014VVGrulemak .1015SENT. That1016DTthat was1017VBDbe changed1018VVNchange in1019INin conference1020NNconference .1021SENT. And1022CCand the1023DTthe enacted1024VVNenact language1025NNlanguage kept1026VVDkeep everything1027NNeverything but1028CCbut substituted1029VVNsubstitute for1030INfor that1031DTthat italicized1032VVNitalicize language1033NNlanguage the1034DTthe phrase1035NNphrase "1036''" that1037WDTthat has1038VHZhave "1039''" ...1040:... that1041DTthat ...1042:... excuse1043VVexcuse me1044PPme ,1045,, "1046''" that1047WDTthat establishes1048VVZestablish or1049CCor changes1050VVZchange a1051DTa substantive1052JJsubstantive legal1053JJlegal standard1054NNstandard .1055SENT. "1056``" [JUSTICE BREYER]1057LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Is1058VBZbe ...1059:... is1060VBZbe this1061DTthis right1062NNright ?1063SENT? I1064PPI mean1065VVPmean ,1066,, I1067PPI ...1068:... it1069PPit 's1070VBZbe very1071RBvery complicated1072JJcomplicated ,1073,, what1074WPwhat you1075PPyou 're1076VBPbe saying1077VVGsay .1078SENT. I1079PPI thought1080VVDthink it1081PPit was1082VBDbe quite1083RBquite simple1084JJsimple ,1085,, that1086IN/thatthat for1087INfor a1088DTa long1089JJlong time1090NNtime in1091INin Medicare1092NPMedicare they1093PPthey did1094VVDdo n't1095RBn't have1096VHhave to1097TOto follow1098VVfollow the1099DTthe APA1100NPAPA .1101SENT. All1102DTall right1103NNright ?1104SENT? Then1105RBthen Congress1106NPCongress passes1107VVZpass a1108DTa statute1109NNstatute and1110CCand says1111VVZsay ,1112,, in1113INin this1114DTthis area1115NNarea ,1116,, you1117PPyou do1118VVPdo .1119SENT. So1120INso the1121DTthe reason1122NNreason it1123PPit says1124VVZsay no1125DTno rule1126NNrule ,1127,, requirement1128NNrequirement ,1129,, or1130CCor other1131JJother statement1132NNstatement of1133INof policy1134NNpolicy is1135VBZbe they1136PPthey have1137VHPhave certain1138JJcertain policy1139NNpolicy statements1140NNSstatement in1141INin mind1142NNmind ,1143,, certain1144JJcertain requirements1145NNSrequirement in1146INin mind1147NNmind ,1148,, and1149CCand certain1150JJcertain rules1151NNSrule in1152INin mind1153NNmind ,1154,, namely1155RBnamely ,1156,, those1157DTthose that1158WDTthat establish1159VVPestablish or1160CCor change1161VVPchange a1162DTa substantive1163JJsubstantive legal1164JJlegal standard1165NNstandard .1166SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]1167LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] And1168CCand that1169DTthat ...1170:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1171LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And1172CCand ,1173,, basically1174RBbasically ,1175,, what1176WPwhat they1177PPthey 're1178VBPbe doing1179VVGdo is1180VBZbe saying1181VVGsay to1182TOto the1183DTthe agency1184NNagency ,1185,, do1186VVPdo n't1187RBn't run1188VVrun around1189RParound this1190DTthis .1191SENT. We1192PPwe 're1193VBPbe not1194RBnot going1195VVGgo to1196TOto permit1197VVpermit a1198DTa run-around1199NNrun-around ,1200,, where1201WRBwhere what1202WPwhat you1203PPyou do1204VVPdo is1205VBZbe you1206PPyou change1207VVPchange the1208DTthe legal1209JJlegal standard1210NNstandard and1211CCand you1212PPyou call1213VVPcall what1214WPwhat you1215PPyou 're1216VBPbe doing1217VVGdo a1218DTa statement1219NNstatement of1220INof policy1221NNpolicy .1222SENT. So1223RBso do1224VVPdo n't1225RBn't run1226VVrun around1227INaround us1228PPus ,1229,, my1230PP$my friend1231NNfriend .1232SENT. You1233PPyou follow1234VVPfollow the1235DTthe APA1236NPAPA .1237SENT. Now1238RBnow that1239DTthat is1240VBZbe what1241WPwhat I1242PPI took1243VVDtake out1244RPout of1245INof your1246PP$your brief1247NNbrief ,1248,, but1249CCbut have1250VHhave I1251PPI got1252VVDget that1253DTthat right1254NNright ?1255SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]1256LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] That1257DTthat ...1258:... that1259WDTthat is1260VBZbe exactly1261RBexactly ...1262:... that1263WDTthat is1264VBZbe exactly1265RBexactly our1266PP$our position1267NNposition .1268SENT. And1269CCand the1270DTthe ...1271:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1272LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So1273RBso why1274WRBwhy did1275VVDdo n't1276RBn't you1277PPyou say1278VVPsay that1279WDTthat was1280VBDbe the1281DTthe answer1282NNanswer to1283TOto what1284WPwhat Justice1285NPJustice Sotomayor1286NPSotomayor said1287VVDsay ?1288SENT? [1289SYM[ LAUGHTER1290NNlaughter ]1291SYM] [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1292LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well1293UHwell ,1294,, the1295DTthe problem1296NNproblem I1297PPI have1298VHPhave with1299INwith that1300DTthat ...1301:... [MR. KNEEDLER]1302LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] I1303PPI ...1304:... I1305PPI ...1306:... I1307PPI tried1308VVDtry to1309TOto start1310VVstart down1311RPdown that1312DTthat path1313NNpath ...1314:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1315LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1316:... counsel1317NNcounsel ...1318:... [MR. KNEEDLER]1319LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...1320:... but1321CCbut I1322PPI ...1323:... but1324CCbut that1325DTthat ...1326:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1327LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1328:... but1329RBbut ...1330:... but1331CCbut let1332VVlet me1333PPme ...1334:... let1335VVlet me1336PPme stop1337VVstop you1338PPyou .1339SENT. If1340INif that1341DTthat 's1342VBZbe what1343WPwhat Congress1344NPCongress intended1345VVDintend ,1346,, it1347PPit could1348MDcould have1349VHhave stopped1350VVNstop in1351INin 19861352CD@card@ because1353RBbecause ,1354,, in1355INin 19861356CD@card@ ,1357,, it1358PPit had1359VHDhave done1360VVNdo what1361WPwhat you1362PPyou said1363VVDsay .1364SENT. But1365CCbut something1366NNsomething ...1367:... and1368CCand you1369PPyou read1370VVPread the1371DTthe House1372NPHouse report1373NNreport ...1374:... [MR. KNEEDLER]1375LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] The1376DTthe House1377NPHouse bill1378NNbill .1379SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1380LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1381:... the1382DTthe House1383NPHouse bill1384NNbill ...1385:... was1386VBDbe leading1387VVGlead them1388PPthem to1389TOto believe1390VVbelieve that1391IN/thatthat a1392DTa different1393JJdifferent standard1394NNstandard was1395VBDbe necessary1396JJnecessary because1397INbecause they1398PPthey changed1399VVDchange it1400PPit .1401SENT. They1402PPthey had1403VHDhave the1404DTthe APA1405NPAPA standard1406NNstandard in1407INin 19861408CD@card@ .1409SENT. They1410PPthey chose1411VVDchoose intentionally1412RBintentionally to1413TOto alter1414VValter it1415PPit by1416INby altering1417VVGalter it1418PPit in1419INin '1420''' 871421CD@card@ .1422SENT. And1423CCand you1424PPyou look1425VVPlook at1426INat the1427DTthe rejection1428NNrejection of1429INof the1430DTthe House1431NPHouse bill1432NNbill as1433INas something1434NNsomething that1435WDTthat helps1436VVZhelp you1437PPyou ,1438,, but1439CCbut I1440PPI 'm1441VBPbe not1442RBnot sure1443JJsure how1444WRBhow .1445SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]1446LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] It1447PPit ...1448:... it1449PPit ...1450:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1451LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Because1452INbecause it1453PPit tells1454VVZtell me1455PPme they1456PPthey are1457VBPbe significantly1458RBsignificantly concerned1459VVNconcern about1460INabout things1461NNSthing that1462WDTthat make1463VVPmake major1464JJmajor changes1465NNSchange ,1466,, substantive1467JJsubstantive changes1468NNSchange in1469INin how1470WRBhow people1471NNSpeople are1472VBPbe being1473VBGbe paid1474VVNpay .1475SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]1476LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] And1477CCand ...1478:... and1479CCand here's1480NNShere's ...1481:... here1482RBhere 's1483VBZbe what1484WPwhat matters1485NNSmatter there1486EXthere ,1487,, as1488RBas ...1489:... as1490INas I1491PPI pointed1492VVDpoint out1493RPout .1494SENT. Congress1495NPCongress substituted1496VVDsubstitute has1497VHZhave or1498CCor may1499MDmay have1500VHhave a1501DTa significant1502JJsignificant effect1503NNeffect .1504SENT. Maybe1505RBmaybe that1506IN/thatthat would1507MDwould sweep1508VVsweep in1509INin ordinary1510JJordinary statements1511NNSstatement of1512INof policy1513NNpolicy or1514CCor interpretive1515JJinterpretive rules1516NNSrule .1517SENT. But1518CCbut the1519DTthe ...1520:... the1521DTthe Conference1522NPConference Committee1523NPCommittee and1524CCand Congress1525NPCongress enacted1526VVDenact something1527NNsomething that1528WDTthat ...1529:... that1530WDTthat refers1531VVZrefer only1532RBonly to1533TOto substantive1534JJsubstantive legal1535JJlegal standards1536NNSstandard .1537SENT. And1538CCand the1539DTthe committee1540NNcommittee report1541NNreport said1542VVDsay this1543DTthis language1544NNlanguage reflects1545VVZreflect recent1546JJrecent court1547NNcourt rulings1548NNSruling .1549SENT. The1550DTthe recent1551JJrecent court1552NNcourt rulings1553NNSruling could1554MDcould only1555RBonly be1556VBbe APA1557NPAPA rulings1558NNSruling because1559INbecause there1560EXthere was1561VBDbe nothing1562NNnothing else1563NNelse that1564WDTthat would1565MDwould have1566VHhave governed1567VVNgovern Medicare1568NPMedicare .1569SENT. And1570CCand ,1571,, in1572INin fact1573NNfact ,1574,, as1575INas we1576PPwe point1577VVPpoint out1578RPout in1579INin our1580PP$our brief1581NNbrief ,1582,, there1583EXthere was1584VBDbe an1585DTan American1586NPAmerican Hospital1587NPHospital Association1588NPAssociation case1589NNcase decided1590VVDdecide ,1591,, I1592PPI think1593VVPthink ,1594,, just1595RBjust a1596DTa matter1597NNmatter of1598INof several1599JJseveral weeks1600NNSweek before1601INbefore the1602DTthe Conference1603NPConference Committee1604NPCommittee that1605WDTthat was1606VBDbe very1607RBvery similar1608JJsimilar to1609TOto this1610DTthis ,1611,, and1612CCand it1613PPit involved1614VVDinvolve instructions1615NNSinstruction affecting1616VVGaffect peer1617NNpeer review1618NNreview organizations1619NNSorganization ,1620,, which1621WDTwhich are1622VBPbe contractors1623NNScontractor that1624WDTthat operate1625VVPoperate on1626INon behalf1627NNbehalf of1628INof HHS1629NPHHS under1630INunder the1631DTthe Medicare1632NPMedicare program1633NNprogram .1634SENT. And1635CCand the1636DTthe court1637NNcourt there1638RBthere drew1639VVDdraw a1640DTa sharp1641JJsharp distinction1642NNdistinction between1643INbetween substantive1644JJsubstantive rules1645NNSrule on1646INon the1647DTthe one1648CDone hand1649NNhand and1650CCand interpretive1651JJinterpretive and1652CCand procedural1653JJprocedural rules1654NNSrule on1655INon the1656DTthe other1657JJother hand1658NNhand .1659SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1660LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So1661INso the1662DTthe answer1663NNanswer is1664VBZbe that1665IN/thatthat it1666PPit did1667VVDdo n't1668RBn't do1669VVdo what1670WPwhat it1671PPit 's1672VBZbe trying1673VVGtry to1674TOto do1675VVdo in1676INin 19861677CD@card@ .1678SENT. What1679WPWhat it1680PPit talked1681VVDtalk about1682RBabout was1683VBDbe any1684DTany regulation1685NNregulation ,1686,, which1687WDTwhich could1688MDcould have1689VHhave included1690VVNinclude interpretive1691JJinterpretive regulations1692NNSregulation .1693SENT. I1694PPI would1695MDwould have1696VHhave found1697VVNfind out1698RPout ,1699,, because1700INbecause I1701PPI read1702VVPread the1703DTthe House1704NPHouse reports1705NNSreport .1706SENT. But1707CCbut those1708DTthose who1709WPwho think1710VVPthink they1711PPthey 're1712VBPbe irrelevant1713JJirrelevant might1714MDmight not1715RBnot have1716VHhave understood1717VVNunderstand the1718DTthe statute1719NNstatute .1720SENT. And1721CCand ,1722,, moreover1723RBmoreover ,1724,, there1725EXthere was1726VBDbe an1727DTan argument1728NNargument going1729VVGgo on1730INon in1731INin the1732DTthe D1733NPD .1734SENT. C1735LSc .1736SENT. Circuit1737NNcircuit about1738INabout what1739WPwhat is1740VBZbe a1741DTa legislative1742JJlegislative rule1743NNrule .1744SENT. Is1745VBZbe it1746PPit just1747RBjust important1748JJimportant versus1749CCversus unimportant1750JJunimportant ,1751,, or1752CCor is1753VBZbe it1754PPit legally1755RBlegally binding1756JJbinding versus1757CCversus non-legally1758RBnon-legally binding1759VVGbind no1760DTno matter1761NNmatter how1762WRBhow unimportant1763JJunimportant ?1764SENT? All1765DTall right1766NNright .1767SENT. That1768DTthat 's1769VBZbe what1770WPwhat they1771PPthey 're1772VBPbe thinking1773VVGthink about1774RBabout .1775SENT. And1776CCand it1777PPit 's1778VBZbe confused1779VVNconfuse .1780SENT. And1781CCand the1782DTthe statute1783NNstatute clarifies1784VVZclarify it1785PPit .1786SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]1787LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes1788NPYes .1789SENT. We1790PPwe ...1791:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1792LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Am1793NPAm I1794PPI right1795RBright or1796CCor not1797RBnot right1798RBright ?1799SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]1800LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes1801NPYes ,1802,, we1803PPwe agree1804VVPagree .1805SENT. But1806CCbut ...1807:... but1808CCbut all1809RBall ...1810:... but1811CCbut 19861812CD@card@ ,1813,, we1814PPwe think1815VVPthink ,1816,, makes1817VVZmake that1818IN/thatthat clear1819JJclear too1820RBtoo .1821SENT. Not1822RBnot only1823RBonly the1824DTthe conference1825NNconference report1826NNreport ,1827,, which1828WDTwhich specifically1829RBspecifically says1830VVZsay interpretive1831JJinterpretive rules1832NNSrule are1833VBPbe not1834RBnot covered1835VVNcover ,1836,, in1837INin fact1838NNfact ,1839,, nothing1840NNnothing 's1841VHZhave covered1842VVNcover that1843DTthat was1844VBDbe n't1845RBn't already1846RBalready covered1847VVNcover by1848INby the1849DTthe APA1850NPAPA ,1851,, but1852CCbut the1853DTthe ...1854:... the1855DTthe ...1856:... the1857DTthe term1858NNterm "1859``" regulation1860NNregulation "1861''" as1862RBas used1863VVDuse itself1864PPitself connotes1865VVZconnote a1866DTa ...1867:... a1868DTa substantive1869JJsubstantive rule1870NNrule ,1871,, a1872DTa ...1873:... a1874DTa legislative1875JJlegislative type1876NNtype rule1877NNrule .1878SENT. People1879NNSpeople may1880MDmay talk1881VVtalk about1882INabout interpretive1883JJinterpretive rules1884NNSrule .1885SENT. You1886PPyou do1887VVPdo n't1888RBn't usually1889RBusually talk1890VVtalk about1891INabout interpretive1892JJinterpretive regulations1893NNSregulation .1894SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1895LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Mr1896NPMr .1897SENT. Kneedler1898NPKneedler ,1899,, this1900DTthis is1901VBZbe where1902WRBwhere I1903PPI get1904VVPget stuck1905VVNstick .1906SENT. And1907CCand I'm1908NPI'm ...1909:... I'm1910NNI'm ...1911:... I1912PPI 'm1913VBPbe focusing1914VVGfocus more1915RBRmore on1916INon the1917DTthe language1918NNlanguage of1919INof the1920DTthe statute1921NNstatute ,1922,, I1923PPI confess1924VVPconfess ,1925,, than1926INthan ...1927:... than1928INthan the1929DTthe history1930NNhistory ,1931,, which1932WDTwhich I1933PPI 've1934VHPhave read1935VVNread but1936CCbut I1937PPI ...1938:... I1939PPI find1940VVPfind confused1941VVNconfuse ,1942,, as1943INas Justice1944NPJustice Breyer1945NPBreyer suggests1946VVZsuggest .1947SENT. So1948RBso (1949(( a1950DTa )1951)) (1952(( 21953LS2 )1954)) says1955VVZsay that1956IN/thatthat any1957DTany rule1958NNrule ,1959,, requirement1960NNrequirement ,1961,, or1962CCor other1963JJother statement1964NNstatement of1965INof policy1966NNpolicy that1967WDTthat establishes1968VVZestablish a1969DTa substantive1970JJsubstantive legal1971JJlegal change1972NNchange has1973VHZhave to1974TOto go1975VVgo through1976INthrough informal1977JJinformal rulemaking1978VVGrulemak ,1979,, not1980RBnot even1981RBeven formal1982JJformal rulemaking1983VVGrulemak .1984SENT. And1985CCand so1986RBso ,1987,, really1988RBreally ,1989,, the1990DTthe question1991NNquestion all1992RBall boils1993VVZboil down1994RPdown to1995TOto what1996WPwhat does1997VVZdo "1998``" substantive1999JJsubstantive "2000''" mean2001NNmean ,2002,, I2003PPI think2004VVPthink ,2005,, as2006RBas ...2007:... as2008RBas ...2009:... as2010INas I2011PPI understand2012VVPunderstand it2013PPit .2014SENT. And2015CCand the2016DTthe import2017NNimport of2018INof that2019DTthat in2020INin the2021DTthe government2022NNgovernment 's2023POS's view2024NNview is2025VBZbe that2026IN/thatthat it2027PPit 's2028VBZbe binding2029JJbinding ,2030,, as2031RBas opposed2032VVNoppose to2033TOto an2034DTan interpretive2035JJinterpretive rule2036NNrule ,2037,, borrowing2038VVGborrow language2039NNlanguage from2040INfrom the2041DTthe APA2042NPAPA .2043SENT. And2044CCand your2045PP$your friend2046NNfriend on2047INon the2048DTthe other2049JJother side2050NNside reads2051VVZread substantive2052JJsubstantive ,2053,, as2054INas it2055PPit 's2056VBZbe often2057RBoften read2058VVNread elsewhere2059RBelsewhere in2060INin the2061DTthe law2062NNlaw ,2063,, as2064INas material2065NNmaterial or2066CCor affecting2067VVGaffect private2068JJprivate rights2069NNSright ,2070,, as2071RBas opposed2072VVNoppose to2073TOto procedural2074JJprocedural .2075SENT. And2076CCand both2077DTboth seem2078VVPseem to2079TOto me2080PPme pretty2081RBpretty plausible2082JJplausible interpretations2083NNSinterpretation of2084INof that2085DTthat word2086NNword .2087SENT. And2088CCand ...2089:... and2090CCand the2091DTthe strikes2092NNSstrike against2093INagainst you2094PPyou ,2095,, as2096INas I2097PPI see2098VVPsee it2099PPit from2100INfrom the2101DTthe text2102NNtext of2103INof the2104DTthe statute2105NNstatute ,2106,, are2107VBPbe a2108DTa few2109JJfew .2110SENT. First2111RBfirst ,2112,, the2113DTthe statute2114NNstatute speaks2115VVZspeak of2116INof statements2117NNSstatement of2118INof policy2119NNpolicy as2120INas being2121VBGbe substantive2122JJsubstantive .2123SENT. But2124CCbut ,2125,, of2126INof course2127NNcourse ,2128,, in2129INin APA2130NPAPA language2131NNlanguage ,2132,, statements2133NNSstatement of2134INof policy2135NNpolicy are2136VBPbe interpretive2137JJinterpretive .2138SENT. They2139PPthey 're2140VBPbe not2141RBnot substantive2142JJsubstantive .2143SENT. They2144PPthey do2145VVPdo n't2146RBn't bind2147VVbind the2148DTthe agency2149NNagency in2150INin any2151DTany reasonable2152JJreasonable sense2153NNsense .2154SENT. It2155PPit speaks2156VVZspeak of2157INof substantive2158JJsubstantive changes2159NNSchange in2160INin an2161DTan interpretive2162JJinterpretive rule2163NNrule in2164INin (2165(( e2166LSe )2167)) .2168SENT. And2169CCand ,2170,, of2171INof course2172NNcourse ,2173,, that2174WDTthat 's2175VBZbe like2176INlike a2177DTa ...2178:... a2179DTa complete2180JJcomplete incoherent2181JJincoherent statement2182NNstatement in2183INin APA2184NPAPA language2185NNlanguage ,2186,, but2187CCbut entirely2188RBentirely coherent2189JJcoherent in2190INin the2191DTthe language2192NNlanguage of2193INof the2194DTthe law2195NNlaw if2196INif "2197``" substantive2198JJsubstantive "2199''" means2200NNmeans material2201NNmaterial .2202SENT. And2203CCand then2204RBthen ,2205,, of2206INof course2207NNcourse ,2208,, the2209DTthe statute2210NNstatute also2211RBalso adopts2212VVZadopt the2213DTthe APA2214NPAPA good2215JJgood faith2216NNfaith ...2217:... the2218DTthe good2219JJgood clause2220NNclause exception2221NNexception to2222TOto ...2223:... to2224TOto ...2225:... to2226TOto rulemaking2227VVGrulemak verbatim2228RBverbatim .2229SENT. And2230CCand it2231PPit clearly2232RBclearly does2233VVZdo n't2234RBn't adopt2235VVadopt the2236DTthe substantive2237JJsubstantive interpretive2238JJinterpretive language2239NNlanguage verbatim2240RBverbatim ,2241,, which2242WDTwhich is2243VBZbe right2244RBright next2245JJnext door2246NNdoor in2247INin ...2248:... in2249INin the2250DTthe APA2251NPAPA .2252SENT. I2253PPI mean2254VVPmean ,2255,, it2256PPit 's2257VBZbe the2258DTthe next2259JJnext section2260NNsection .2261SENT. And2262CCand you2263PPyou 're2264VBPbe asking2265VVGask us2266PPus to2267TOto think2268VVthink that2269IN/thatthat Congress2270NPCongress recreated2271VVDrecreate that2272DTthat section2273NNsection in2274INin this2275DTthis statute2276NNstatute through2277INthrough this2278DTthis rather2279RBrather oblique2280JJoblique mechanism2281NNmechanism .2282SENT. So2283RBso ,2284,, there2285RBthere ,2286,, I2287PPI 've2288VHPhave put2289VVNput my2290PP$my cards2291NNScard on2292INon the2293DTthe table2294NNtable .2295SENT. Tell2296VVtell me2297PPme where2298WRBwhere I2299PPI 've2300VHPhave gone2301VVNgo wrong2302JJwrong .2303SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]2304LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Okay2305NPOkay .2306SENT. Starting2307VVGstart with2308INwith the2309DTthe good2310JJgood cause2311NNcause exception2312NNexception ,2313,, as2314RBas ...2315:... as2316INas we2317PPwe say2318VVPsay ,2319,, in2320INin our2321PP$our view2322NNview ,2323,, the2324DTthe statute2325NNstatute only2326RBonly applies2327VVZapply to2328TOto substantive2329JJsubstantive or2330CCor legislative2331JJlegislative rules2332NNSrule .2333SENT. And2334CCand the2335DTthe good2336JJgood cause2337NNcause exception2338NNexception under2339INunder the2340DTthe APA2341NPAPA applies2342VVZapply to2343TOto things2344NNSthing that2345WDTthat have2346VHPhave to2347TOto go2348VVgo through2349INthrough notice-and-comment2350NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking2351VVGrulemak ,2352,, which2353WDTwhich are2354VBPbe substantive2355JJsubstantive rules2356NNSrule ,2357,, so2358RBso it2359PPit was2360VBDbe necessary2361JJnecessary to2362TOto incorporate2363VVincorporate that2364DTthat .2365SENT. But2366CCbut ,2367,, in2368RBin ...2369:... in2370INin our2371PP$our view2372NNview ,2373,, the2374DTthe text2375NNtext of2376INof the2377DTthe provision2378NNprovision ,2379,, which2380WDTwhich refers2381VVZrefer only2382RBonly to2383TOto substantive2384JJsubstantive legal2385JJlegal standards2386NNSstandard ,2387,, does2388VVZdo not2389RBnot include2390VVinclude interpretive2391JJinterpretive rules2392NNSrule to2393TOto begin2394VVbegin with2395INwith or2396CCor procedural2397JJprocedural rules2398NNSrule for2399INfor that2400DTthat matter2401NNmatter ,2402,, so2403INso there2404EXthere 's2405VBZbe no2406DTno need2407NNneed to2408TOto have2409VHhave an2410DTan express2411JJexpress exception2412NNexception because2413INbecause the2414DTthe operative2415JJoperative text2416NNtext excludes2417VVZexclude it2418PPit .2419SENT. With2420INwith respect2421NNrespect to2422TOto the2423DTthe substantive2424JJsubstantive change2425NNchange in2426INin regulations2427NNSregulation under2428INunder (2429(( e2430LSe )2431)) (2432(( 12433LS1 )2434)) ,2435,, it2436PPit does2437VVZdo not2438RBnot say2439VVsay substantive2440JJsubstantive legal2441JJlegal standard2442NNstandard ,2443,, which2444WDTwhich is2445VBZbe the2446DTthe operative2447JJoperative language2448NNlanguage in2449INin ...2450:... in2451INin (2452(( a2453DTa )2454)) (2455(( 22456LS2 )2457)) .2458SENT. It2459PPit says2460VVZsay a2461DTa substantive2462JJsubstantive change2463NNchange .2464SENT. And2465CCand we2466PPwe think2467VVPthink "2468``" substantive2469JJsubstantive "2470''" means2471NNSmean in2472INin substance2473NNsubstance ,2474,, as2475RBas opposed2476VVNoppose to2477TOto perhaps2478RBperhaps form2479VVform or2480CCor wording2481NNwording or2482CCor something2483NNsomething like2484INlike that2485DTthat .2486SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2487LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But2488CCbut then2489RBthen you2490PPyou would2491MDwould be2492VBbe using2493VVGuse the2494DTthe word2495NNword "2496``" substantive2497JJsubstantive "2498''" in2499INin two2500CDtwo different2501JJdifferent ways2502NNSway in2503INin two2504CDtwo very2505RBvery nearby2506JJnearby provisions2507NNSprovision ,2508,, would2509MDwould n't2510RBn't you2511PPyou ?2512SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]2513LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well2514UHWell ,2515,, but2516CCbut we2517PPwe ...2518:... but2519CCbut we2520PPwe think2521VVPthink that2522IN/thatthat they2523PPthey ...2524:... that2525IN/thatthat they2526PPthey have2527VHPhave a2528DTa different2529JJdifferent effect2530NNeffect .2531SENT. But2532CCbut even2533RBeven ...2534:... but2535CCbut even2536RBeven ...2537:... even2538RBeven if2539INif you2540PPyou said2541VVDsay an2542DTan interpretive2543JJinterpretive rule2544NNrule can2545MDcan address2546VVaddress something2547NNsomething of2548INof substance2549NNsubstance ,2550,, it2551PPit 's2552VBZbe ...2553:... for2554INfor example2555NNexample ,2556,, if2557INif it2558PPit 's2559VBZbe interpreting2560VVGinterpret a2561DTa statute2562NNstatute or2563CCor a2564DTa regulation2565NNregulation ,2566,, it2567PPit may2568MDmay have2569VHhave some2570DTsome effect2571NNeffect as2572INas a2573DTa substantive2574JJsubstantive matter2575NNmatter ,2576,, but2577CCbut it2578PPit is2579VBZbe not2580RBnot binding2581JJbinding .2582SENT. And2583CCand what2584WPwhat this2585DTthis Court2586NPCourt has2587VHZhave said2588VVNsay in2589RPin ...2590:... in2591INin Chrysler2592NPChrysler Corporation2593NPCorporation ,2594,, said2595VVDsay it2596PPit in2597INin Guernsey2598NPGuernsey Memorial2599NPMemorial Hospital2600NPHospital ,2601,, which2602WDTwhich deals2603VVZdeal with2604INwith this2605DTthis very2606JJvery program2607NNprogram ,2608,, a2609DTa substantive2610JJsubstantive rule2611NNrule is2612VBZbe one2613CDone that2614WDTthat has2615VHZhave the2616DTthe force2617NNforce and2618CCand effect2619NNeffect of2620INof law2621NNlaw .2622SENT. An2623DTan interpretive2624JJinterpretive rule2625NNrule does2626VVZdo not2627RBnot .2628SENT. It2629PPit simply2630RBsimply explains2631VVZexplain the2632DTthe agency2633NNagency 's2634POS's construction2635NNconstruction of2636INof the2637DTthe statutes2638NNSstatute and2639CCand rules2640NNSrule that2641IN/thatthat it2642PPit implements2643VVZimplement .2644SENT. So2645RBso ...2646:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2647LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Mr2648NPMr .2649SENT. Kneedler2650NPKneedler ,2651,, there2652EXthere 's2653VBZbe a2654DTa lot2655NNlot of2656INof words2657NNSword there2658RBthere ,2659,, but2660CCbut I2661PPI 'm2662VBPbe not2663RBnot sure2664RBsure there2665EXthere 's2666VBZbe an2667DTan answer2668NNanswer to2669TOto Justice2670NPJustice Kagan2671NPKagan 's2672POS's question2673NNquestion .2674SENT. So2675RBso I'm2676NPI'm ...2677:... I2678PPI 'm2679VBPbe going2680VVGgo to2681TOto give2682VVgive you2683PPyou an2684DTan opportunity2685NNopportunity to2686TOto try2687VVtry again2688RBagain ,2689,, because2690INbecause it2691PPit 's2692VBZbe very2693RBvery important2694JJimportant to2695TOto me2696PPme as2697INas well2698RBwell .2699SENT. Are2700VBPbe n't2701RBn't you2702PPyou using2703VVGuse the2704DTthe word2705NNword "2706``" substantive2707JJsubstantive "2708''" in2709INin two2710CDtwo different2711JJdifferent senses2712NNSsense ,2713,, first2714JJfirst in2715INin the2716DTthe APA's2717NPAPA's ...2718:... what2719WPwhat I2720PPI call2721VVPcall the2722DTthe APA2723NPAPA sense2724NNsense in2725INin (2726(( a2727DTa )2728)) ,2729,, and2730CCand then2731RBthen what2732WPwhat I2733PPI 'll2734MDwill call2735VVcall the2736DTthe other2737JJother traditional2738JJtraditional legal2739JJlegal sense2740NNsense in2741INin (2742(( e2743LSe )2744)) ?2745SENT? So2746RBso you2747PPyou 're2748VBPbe conceding2749VVGconcede to2750TOto your2751PP$your colleague2752NNcolleague on2753INon the2754DTthe other2755JJother side2756NNside that2757IN/thatthat it2758PPit is2759VBZbe used2760VVNuse in2761INin that2762DTthat sense2763NNsense at2764INat least2765JJSleast in2766INin (2767(( e2768LSe )2769)) ,2770,, I2771PPI believe2772VVPbelieve .2773SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]2774LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well2775UHwell ,2776,, it2777PPit ...2778:... it2779PPit does2780VVZdo n't2781RBn't say2782VVsay substantive2783JJsubstantive rule2784NNrule or2785CCor substantive2786JJsubstantive standard2787NNstandard ,2788,, which2789WDTwhich would2790MDwould be2791VBbe the2792DTthe ...2793:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2794LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Substantive2795NPSubstantive ...2796:... it2797PPit says2798VVZsay substantive2799JJsubstantive change2800NNchange to2801TOto an2802DTan interpretive2803JJinterpretive rule2804NNrule .2805SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]2806LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right2807NPRight .2808SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2809LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Which2810WDTwhich is2811VBZbe a2812DTa nonsense2813NNnonsense under2814INunder your2815PP$your view2816NNview ,2817,, I2818PPI believe2819VVPbelieve .2820SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]2821LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] But2822CCbut ...2823:... but2824CCbut substantive2825JJsubstantive there2826RBthere ,2827,, we2828PPwe ...2829:... we2830PPwe think2831VVPthink in2832INin substance2833NNsubstance is2834VBZbe whatever2835JJwhatever ...2836:... no2837RBno ,2838,, I'm2839NPI'm ...2840:... I'm2841NNI'm ...2842:... I2843PPI 'm2844VBPbe serious2845JJserious ,2846,, is2847VBZbe what2848WPwhat it2849PPit refers2850VVZrefer to2851TOto .2852SENT. It2853PPit 's2854VBZbe not2855RBnot in2856INin form2857NNform .2858SENT. It2859PPit 's2860VBZbe meaningful2861JJmeaningful .2862SENT. But2863CCbut beyond2864INbeyond that2865DTthat ,2866,, the2867DTthe ...2868:... the2869DTthe subsequent2870JJsubsequent words2871NNSword used2872VVNuse in2873INin the2874DTthe section2875NNsection refer2876VVPrefer to2877TOto regulations2878NNSregulation ,2879,, manual2880JJmanual instructions2881NNSinstruction ,2882,, interpretive2883JJinterpretive rules2884NNSrule ,2885,, statements2886NNSstatement of2887INof policy2888NNpolicy .2889SENT. It2890PPit is2891VBZbe distinguishing2892VVGdistinguish regulations2893NNSregulation ,2894,, which2895WDTwhich are2896VBPbe the2897DTthe things2898NNSthing that2899WDTthat have2900VHPhave to2901TOto go2902VVgo through2903INthrough notice-and-comment2904NNnotice-and-comment under2905INunder (2906(( a2907DTa )2908)) ,2909,, from2910INfrom the2911DTthe subsequent2912JJsubsequent things2913NNSthing ,2914,, manual2915JJmanual instructions2916NNSinstruction ,2917,, interpretive2918JJinterpretive rules2919NNSrule ,2920,, which2921WDTwhich do2922VVPdo not2923RBnot .2924SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]2925LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Again2926NPAgain ,2927,, a2928DTa lot2929NNlot of2930INof words2931NNSword ,2932,, but2933CCbut I2934PPI think2935VVPthink at2936INat the2937DTthe end2938NNend of2939INof the2940DTthe day2941NNday you2942PPyou are2943VBPbe agreeing2944VVGagree that2945IN/thatthat Congress2946NPCongress is2947VBZbe using2948VVGuse that2949DTthat word2950NNword in2951INin two2952CDtwo different2953JJdifferent senses2954NNSsense ,2955,, right2956RBright ?2957SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]2958LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] We2959PPwe ...2960:... we2961PPwe ...2962:... we2963PPwe think2964VVPthink the2965DTthe phrase2966NNphrase "2967``" substantive2968JJsubstantive change2969NNchange "2970''" here2971RBhere is2972VBZbe different2973JJdifferent from2974INfrom substantive2975JJsubstantive legal2976JJlegal standard2977NNstandard ,2978,, which2979WDTwhich is2980VBZbe ...2981:... we2982PPwe think2983VVPthink is2984VBZbe the2985DTthe same2986JJsame as2987INas substantive2988JJsubstantive ...2989:... as2990INas substantive2991JJsubstantive rule2992NNrule .2993SENT. And2994CCand ,2995,, I2996PPI 'm2997VBPbe sorry2998JJsorry ,2999,, I3000PPI ...3001:... I3002PPI forgot3003VVDforget the3004DTthe third3005JJthird point3006NNpoint you3007PPyou asked3008VVDask me3009PPme .3010SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3011LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Statement3012NNstatement of3013INof policy3014NNpolicy ,3015,, because3016INbecause that3017WDTthat 's3018VBZbe hanging3019VVGhang me3020PPme up3021RPup too3022RBtoo .3023SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3024LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Okay3025NPOkay .3026SENT. State3027NNstate ...3028:... statement3029NNstatement of3030INof policy3031NNpolicy ,3032,, again3033RBagain ,3034,, frankly3035RBfrankly ,3036,, I3037PPI think3038VVPthink that3039DTthat is3040VBZbe an3041DTan artifact3042NNartifact of3043INof the3044DTthe House3045NPHouse version3046NNversion of3047INof the3048DTthe ...3049:... of3050INof the3051DTthe bill3052NNbill .3053SENT. If3054INif you3055PPyou go3056VVPgo back3057RBback to3058TOto page3059NNpage 343060CD@card@ ,3061,, it3062PPit read3063VVDread off3064RPoff no3065DTno rule3066NNrule ,3067,, requirement3068NNrequirement ,3069,, or3070CCor other3071JJother statement3072NNstatement of3073INof policy3074NNpolicy that3075WDTthat has3076VHZhave or3077CCor may3078MDmay have3079VHhave a3080DTa significant3081JJsignificant effect3082NNeffect .3083SENT. It3084PPit 's3085VBZbe possible3086JJpossible that3087IN/thatthat a3088DTa statement3089NNstatement of3090INof policy3091NNpolicy ,3092,, or3093CCor an3094DTan interpretive3095JJinterpretive rule3096NNrule ,3097,, could3098MDcould have3099VHhave a3100DTa significant3101JJsignificant effect3102NNeffect on3103INon ...3104:... on3105INon ...3106:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3107LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] This3108DTthis one3109CDone does3110VVZdo .3111SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3112LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...3113:... interpretation3114NNinterpretation ,3115,, but3116CCbut it3117PPit does3118VVZdo n't3119RBn't have3120VHhave the3121DTthe force3122NNforce of3123INof law3124NNlaw .3125SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3126LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So3127INso you3128PPyou 're3129VBPbe ...3130:... you3131PPyou 're3132VBPbe agreeing3133VVGagree it3134PPit 's3135VBZbe incoherent3136JJincoherent as3137RBas written3138VVNwrite .3139SENT. It3140PPit 's3141VBZbe just3142RBjust that3143IN/thatthat when3144WRBwhen the3145DTthe language3146NNlanguage was3147VBDbe different3148JJdifferent it3149PPit was3150VBDbe not3151RBnot incoherent3152JJincoherent ?3153SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]3154LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well3155UHWell ...3156:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3157LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] As3158INas written3159VVNwrite ,3160,, it3161PPit 's3162VBZbe incoherent3163JJincoherent because3164INbecause a3165DTa statement3166NNstatement of3167INof policy3168NNpolicy is3169VBZbe ,3170,, by3171INby definition3172NNdefinition ,3173,, not3174RBnot a3175DTa substantive3176JJsubstantive rule3177NNrule ?3178SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]3179LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes3180NPYes ,3181,, but3182CCbut I3183PPI think3184VVPthink it3185PPit ...3186:... I3187PPI think3188VVPthink it3189PPit serves3190VVZserve the3191DTthe purpose3192NNpurpose that3193IN/thatthat Justice3194NPJustice Breyer3195NPBreyer was3196VBDbe identifying3197VVGidentify ,3198,, basically3199RBbasically saying3200VVGsay we3201PPwe do3202VVPdo n't3203RBn't care3204VVcare what3205WPwhat you3206PPyou call3207VVPcall it3208PPit ,3209,, whether3210INwhether you3211PPyou call3212VVPcall it3213PPit a3214DTa rule3215NNrule ,3216,, whether3217INwhether you3218PPyou call3219VVPcall it3220PPit a3221DTa requirement3222NNrequirement ,3223,, whether3224INwhether you3225PPyou call3226VVPcall it3227PPit a3228DTa statement3229NNstatement of3230INof policy3231NNpolicy .3232SENT. A3233DTa rule3234NNrule ,3235,, after3236INafter all3237DTall ,3238,, includes3239VVZinclude interpretive3240JJinterpretive rules3241NNSrule .3242SENT. So3243RBso no3244RBno matter3245VVmatter what3246WPwhat you3247PPyou call3248VVPcall it3249PPit ,3250,, a3251DTa rule3252NNrule ,3253,, a3254DTa requirement3255NNrequirement ,3256,, or3257CCor a3258DTa statement3259NNstatement of3260INof policy3261NNpolicy ,3262,, it3263PPit ...3264:... it3265PPit covers3266VVZcover ...3267:... it3268PPit 's3269VBZbe only3270RBonly covered3271VVNcover if3272INif it3273PPit would3274MDwould have3275VHhave established3276VVNestablish or3277CCor changed3278VVNchange a3279DTa substantive3280JJsubstantive legal3281JJlegal standard3282NNstandard .3283SENT. And3284CCand ,3285,, in3286INin fact3287NNfact ,3288,, the3289DTthe conference3290NNconference report3291NNreport on3292INon the3293DTthe 19873294CD@card@ amendment3295NNamendment specifically3296RBspecifically stresses3297VVZstress ...3298:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3299LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] What3300WPWhat would3301MDwould be3302VBbe the3303DTthe ...3304:... [MR. KNEEDLER]3305LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...3306:... that3307IN/thatthat it3308PPit only3309RBonly covers3310VVZcover ...3311:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3312LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] What3313WPWhat would3314MDwould be3315VBbe the3316DTthe point3317NNpoint ...3318:... [MR. KNEEDLER]3319LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...3320:... substantive3321JJsubstantive legal3322JJlegal standards3323NNSstandard .3324SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3325LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] What3326WPWhat would3327MDwould be3328VBbe the3329DTthe point3330NNpoint of3331INof that3332DTthat ,3333,, though3334RBthough ,3335,, if3336INif a3337DTa statement3338NNstatement of3339INof policy3340NNpolicy could3341MDcould n't3342RBn't have3343VHhave operative3344JJoperative legal3345JJlegal effect3346NNeffect on3347INon anyone3348NNanyone anyway3349RBanyway ?3350SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]3351LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well3352UHWell ,3353,, again3354RBagain ,3355,, if3356INif ...3357:... if3358INif ...3359:... if3360INif that3361WDTthat was3362VBDbe the3363DTthe ...3364:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3365LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I3366PPI mean3367VVPmean ,3368,, a3369DTa party3370NNparty would3371MDwould simply3372RBsimply say3373VVsay that3374WDTthat 's3375VBZbe just3376RBjust a3377DTa statement3378NNstatement of3379INof policy3380NNpolicy .3381SENT. Have3382VHPhave a3383DTa nice3384JJnice day3385NNday .3386SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3387LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well3388UHWell ,3389,, but3390CCbut if3391INif ...3392:... but3393CCbut if3394INif it3395PPit ...3396:... if3397INif it3398PPit purports3399VVZpurport to3400TOto ,3401,, as3402INas the3403DTthe language3404NNlanguage the3405DTthe Court3406NNcourt used3407VVNuse in3408INin Chrysler3409NPChrysler ,3410,, to3411TOto establish3412VVestablish a3413DTa substantive3414JJsubstantive legal3415JJlegal standard3416NNstandard ,3417,, it3418PPit 's3419VBZbe not3420RBnot just3421RBjust a3422DTa statement3423NNstatement of3424INof policy3425NNpolicy .3426SENT. It3427PPit 's3428VHZhave called3429VVNcall a3430DTa statement3431NNstatement of3432INof policy3433NNpolicy .3434SENT. Then3435RBthen it3436PPit actually3437RBactually describes3438VVZdescribe ...3439:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3440LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well3441UHWell ,3442,, then3443RBthen it3444PPit 's3445VBZbe not3446RBnot a3447DTa statement3448NNstatement ...3449:... then3450RBthen the3451DTthe argument3452NNargument would3453MDwould be3454VBbe it3455PPit 's3456VBZbe not3457RBnot a3458DTa statement3459NNstatement of3460INof policy3461NNpolicy ,3462,, right3463RBright ?3464SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]3465LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3466NPRight ,3467,, that3468WDTthat ...3469:... that3470DTthat ...3471:... that3472WDTthat is3473VBZbe true3474JJtrue ,3475,, but3476CCbut that3477DTthat ...3478:... but3479CCbut that3480DTthat ...3481:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]3482LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Okay3483NPOkay .3484SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3485LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...3486:... that3487WDTthat does3488VVZdo n't3489RBn't mean3490VVmean that3491DTthat ...3492:... that3493WDTthat does3494VVZdo n't3495RBn't mean3496VVmean it3497PPit 's3498VBZbe not3499RBnot ...3500:... it3501PPit 's3502VBZbe not3503RBnot a3504DTa statement3505NNstatement of3506INof policy3507NNpolicy within3508INwithin the3509DTthe precise3510JJprecise meaning3511NNmeaning of3512INof the3513DTthe APA3514NPAPA .3515SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3516LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well3517UHwell ,3518,, they3519PPthey do3520VVPdo n't3521RBn't want3522VVwant a3523DTa run-around3524NNrun-around .3525SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3526LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3527NPRight .3528SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3529LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] But3530NPBut ,3531,, (3532(( e3533LSe )3534)) ,3535,, they3536PPthey do3537VVPdo n't3538RBn't run3539VVrun around3540INaround it3541PPit by3542INby calling3543VVGcall it3544PPit a3545DTa statement3546NNstatement of3547INof policy3548NNpolicy when3549WRBwhen you3550PPyou 're3551VBPbe ...3552:... [MR. KNEEDLER]3553LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3554RBright .3555SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3556LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...3557:... changing3558VVGchange the3559DTthe substantive3560JJsubstantive ...3561:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3562LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Yes3563NPYes ,3564,, but3565CCbut it3566PPit 's3567VBZbe at3568INat least3569JJSleast ...3570:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3571LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And3572CCand ...3573:... and3574CCand I3575PPI have3576VHPhave a3577DTa different3578JJdifferent question3579NNquestion ,3580,, which3581WDTwhich is3582VBZbe (3583(( e3584LSe )3585)) ,3586,, which3587WDTwhich is3588VBZbe because3589INbecause they3590PPthey are3591VBPbe using3592VVGuse the3593DTthe word3594NNword "3595``" substantive3596JJsubstantive change3597NNchange "3598''" there3599RBthere possibly3600RBpossibly in3601INin a3602DTa different3603JJdifferent sense3604NNsense .3605SENT. So3606RBso ...3607:... so3608RBso ...3609:... so3610INso I3611PPI ...3612:... I3613PPI agree3614VVPagree with3615INwith that3616DTthat ,3617,, and3618CCand I3619PPI ...3620:... but3621CCbut I3622PPI thought3623VVDthink that3624IN/thatthat (3625(( e3626LSe )3627)) has3628VHZhave something3629NNsomething to3630TOto do3631VVdo that3632DTthat 's3633VBZbe not3634RBnot involved3635VVNinvolve here3636RBhere .3637SENT. (3638(( e3639NNe )3640)) is3641VBZbe a3642DTa kind3643NNkind of3644INof codification3645NNcodification of3646INof a3647DTa different3648JJdifferent common3649JJcommon law3650NNlaw rule3651NNrule of3652INof administrative3653JJadministrative law3654NNlaw that3655IN/thatthat ,3656,, when3657WRBwhen you3658PPyou do3659VVPdo something3660NNsomething retroactively3661RBretroactively that3662DTthat 's3663VBZbe important3664JJimportant ,3665,, Mr3666NPMr .3667SENT. Agency3668NNagency ,3669,, you3670PPyou better3671VVPbetter have3672VHhave a3673DTa reason3674NNreason .3675SENT. You3676PPyou better3677RBRwell look3678VVlook at3679INat why3680WRBwhy you3681PPyou 've3682VHPhave changed3683VVNchange it3684PPit .3685SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3686LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3687NPRight .3688SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3689LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] If3690INif you3691PPyou 're3692VBPbe changing3693VVGchange policy3694NNpolicy ,3695,, go3696VVgo look3697VVlook at3698INat it3699PPit and3700CCand explain3701VVexplain it3702PPit to3703TOto us3704PPus .3705SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3706LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3707NPRight .3708SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3709LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Something3710NNsomething this3711DTthis Court3712NPCourt has3713VHZhave said3714VVNsay many3715JJmany ,3716,, many3717JJmany times3718NNStime .3719SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3720LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Right3721NPRight .3722SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3723LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And3724CCand I3725PPI thought3726VVDthink that3727WDTthat 's3728VBZbe what3729WPwhat (3730(( e3731LSe )3732)) is3733VBZbe about3734RBabout .3735SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3736LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes3737NPYes .3738SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3739LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] It3740PPit 's3741VBZbe a3742DTa different3743JJdifferent subject3744NNsubject .3745SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]3746LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] That3747DTthat ...3748:... that3749WDTthat is3750VBZbe ...3751:... that3752WDTthat 's3753VBZbe correct3754JJcorrect in3755INin our3756PP$our view3757NNview .3758SENT. And3759CCand it3760PPit talks3761VVZtalk about3762INabout a3763DTa substantive3764JJsubstantive change3765NNchange in3766INin regulations3767NNSregulation ,3768,, again3769RBagain ,3770,, which3771WDTwhich are3772VBPbe the3773DTthe things3774NNSthing that3775WDTthat have3776VHPhave to3777TOto go3778VVgo through3779INthrough notice-and-comment3780NNnotice-and-comment rule3781NNrule ...3782:... rulemaking3783VVGrulemak under3784INunder subsection3785NNsubsection (3786(( a3787DTa )3788)) .3789SENT. And3790CCand then3791RBthen goes3792VVZgo on3793RPon to3794TOto say3795VVsay manual3796JJmanual instructions3797NNSinstruction ,3798,, interpretive3799JJinterpretive rules3800NNSrule ,3801,, statements3802NNSstatement of3803INof policy3804NNpolicy or3805CCor guidelines3806NNSguideline ,3807,, which3808WDTwhich do3809VVPdo not3810RBnot have3811VHhave the3812DTthe force3813NNforce and3814CCand effect3815NNeffect of3816INof law3817NNlaw ,3818,, they3819PPthey are3820VBPbe not3821RBnot substantive3822JJsubstantive rules3823NNSrule or3824CCor ,3825,, in3826INin the3827DTthe language3828NNlanguage here3829RBhere ,3830,, they3831PPthey do3832VVPdo not3833RBnot establish3834VVestablish or3835CCor change3836VVchange substantive3837JJsubstantive legal3838JJlegal standards3839NNSstandard .3840SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3841LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] May3842NPmay ...3843:... may3844MDmay ...3845:... [MR. KNEEDLER]3846LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] And3847CCand so3848RBso it3849PPit distinguishes3850VVZdistinguish right3851RBright ...3852:... right3853RBright in3854INin there3855RBthere the3856DTthe reg3857NNreg ...3858:... the3859DTthe sort3860NNsort of3861INof regulations3862NNSregulation that3863IN/thatthat (3864(( a3865DTa )3866)) is3867VBZbe talking3868VVGtalk about3869RBabout and3870CCand these3871DTthese ...3872:... these3873DTthese non-binding3874JJnon-binding sorts3875NNSsort of3876INof things3877NNSthing that3878WDTthat ...3879:... that3880IN/thatthat either3881DTeither way3882NNway they3883PPthey should3884MDshould be3885VBbe made3886VVNmake retroactive3887JJretroactive .3888SENT. If3889INif they3890PPthey 're3891VBPbe interpretive3892JJinterpretive ,3893,, the3894DTthe interpretation3895NNinterpretation should3896MDshould n't3897RBn't be3898VBbe made3899VVNmake retroactive3900JJretroactive unless3901INunless it3902PPit ...3903:... it3904PPit goes3905VVZgo through3906RPthrough ...3907:... unless3908INunless the3909DTthe agency3910NNagency makes3911VVZmake it3912PPit specified3913VVDspecify .3914SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3915LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] May3916NPmay ...3917:... may3918MDmay I3919PPI take3920VVtake you3921PPyou back3922RBback ,3923,, Mr3924NPMr .3925SENT. Kneedler3926NPKneedler ,3927,, to3928TOto one3929CDone of3930INof Justice3931NPJustice Sotomayor3932NPSotomayor 's3933POS's original3934JJoriginal questions3935NNSquestion ,3936,, which3937WDTwhich is3938VBZbe just3939RBjust what3940WPwhat ,3941,, on3942INon your3943PP$your theory3944NNtheory ,3945,, this3946DTthis provision3947NNprovision ends3948VVZend up3949RPup actually3950RBactually accomplishing3951VVGaccomplish ?3952SENT? Because3953RBbecause ,3954,, as3955INas I3956PPI understand3957VVPunderstand the3958DTthe 193959CD@card@ ...3960:... the3961DTthe 19863962CD@card@ ,3963,, the3964DTthe ...3965:... the3966DTthe prior3967JJprior year3968NNyear 's3969POS's provision3970NNprovision ,3971,, Congress3972NPCongress essentially3973RBessentially already3974RBalready said3975VVDsay ,3976,, for3977INfor Medicare3978NPMedicare substantive3979JJsubstantive rules3980NNSrule ,3981,, you3982PPyou have3983VHPhave to3984TOto go3985VVgo through3986INthrough notice3987NNnotice and3988CCand comment3989NNcomment .3990SENT. And3991CCand I3992PPI understand3993VVPunderstand how3994WRBhow this3995DTthis would3996MDwould have3997VHhave been3998VBNbe different3999JJdifferent if4000INif it4001PPit was4002VBDbe the4003DTthe original4004JJoriginal version4005NNversion of4006INof the4007DTthe thing4008NNthing ,4009,, the4010DTthe "4011``" has4012VHZhave or4013CCor may4014MDmay have4015VHhave a4016DTa significant4017JJsignificant effect4018NNeffect .4019SENT. "4020''" But4021CCbut ,4022,, as4023INas written4024VVNwrite ,4025,, on4026INon your4027PP$your theory4028NNtheory ,4029,, it4030PPit seems4031VVZseem to4032TOto just4033RBjust repeat4034VVrepeat the4035DTthe 19864036CD@card@ command4037NNcommand ,4038,, does4039VVZdo n't4040RBn't it4041PPit ?4042SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4043LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well4044UHWell ,4045,, again4046RBagain ,4047,, the4048DTthe House4049NPHouse would4050MDwould have4051VHhave done4052VVNdo something4053NNsomething broader4054JJRbroad in4055INin 19874056CD@card@ .4057SENT. And4058CCand I4059PPI ...4060:... and4061CCand I4062PPI think4063VVPthink that4064IN/thatthat the4065DTthe ...4066:... I4067PPI think4068VVPthink the4069DTthe Court4070NPCourt should4071MDshould realize4072VVrealize that4073DTthat ...4074:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4075LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But4076CCbut are4077VBPbe you4078PPyou saying4079VVGsay ...4080:... I4081PPI want4082VVPwant to4083TOto make4084VVmake sure4085JJsure I4086PPI understand4087VVPunderstand this4088DTthis .4089SENT. Are4090VBPbe you4091PPyou saying4092VVGsay that4093IN/thatthat the4094DTthe compromise4095NNcompromise was4096VBDbe essentially4097RBessentially to4098TOto just4099RBjust repeat4100VVrepeat the4101DTthe 19864102CD@card@ provision4103NNprovision ?4104SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4105LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes4106NPYes .4107SENT. I4108PPI mean4109VVPmean ,4110,, I4111PPI think4112VVPthink ...4113:... I4114PPI think4115VVPthink that4116WDTthat is4117VBZbe ...4118:... it4119PPit was4120VBDbe carried4121VVNcarry forward4122RBforward .4123SENT. And4124CCand the4125DTthe ...4126:... and4127CCand ,4128,, again4129RBagain ,4130,, the4131DTthe conference4132NNconference committee4133NNcommittee report4134NNreport stresses4135VVZstress that4136IN/thatthat only4137JJonly things4138NNSthing that4139WDTthat establish4140VVestablish or4141CCor change4142VVchange a4143DTa substantive4144JJsubstantive legal4145JJlegal standard4146NNstandard .4147SENT. And4148CCand that4149DTthat ...4150:... the4151DTthe word4152NNword "4153``" substantive4154JJsubstantive "4155''" in4156INin the4157DTthe rulemaking4158VVGrulemak context4159NNcontext has4160VHZhave a4161DTa ...4162:... has4163VHZhave a4164DTa long4165JJlong history4166NNhistory in4167INin administrative4168JJadministrative law4169NNlaw under4170INunder the4171DTthe APA4172NPAPA .4173SENT. It4174PPit also4175RBalso ...4176:... the4177DTthe distinction4178NNdistinction ...4179:... that4180DTthat very4181JJvery distinction4182NNdistinction is4183VBZbe drawn4184VVNdraw in4185INin Black4186NPBlack 's4187POS's Law4188NPLaw Dictionary4189NPDictionary ,4190,, as4191INas we4192PPwe explain4193VVPexplain in4194INin our4195PP$our ...4196:... in4197INin our4198PP$our brief4199NNbrief .4200SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4201LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I4202PPI mean4203VVPmean ,4204,, it4205PPit is4206VBZbe a4207DTa little4208JJlittle bit4209NNbit odd4210JJodd ,4211,, do4212VVPdo n't4213RBn't you4214PPyou agree4215VVPagree ,4216,, Mr4217NPMr .4218SENT. Kneedler4219NPKneedler ,4220,, because4221RBbecause ,4222,, if4223INif the4224DTthe compromise4225NNcompromise was4226VBDbe not4227RBnot to4228TOto do4229VVdo anything4230NNanything beyond4231INbeyond 19864232CD@card@ ,4233,, then4234RBthen you4235PPyou would4236MDwould think4237VVthink that4238IN/thatthat people4239NNSpeople would4240MDwould just4241RBjust say4242VVsay ,4243,, okay4244RBokay ,4245,, let4246VVPlet 's4247VBZbe not4248RBnot do4249VVdo it4250PPit .4251SENT. Not4252RBnot put4253VVNput in4254INin a4255DTa new4256JJnew ...4257:... a4258DTa new4259JJnew ...4260:... a4261DTa new4262JJnew statute4263NNstatute saying4264VVGsay precisely4265RBprecisely the4266DTthe same4267JJsame thing4268NNthing .4269SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]4270LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well4271UHWell ,4272,, the4273DTthe ...4274:... the4275DTthe bill4276NNbill was4277VBDbe in4278INin conference4279NNconference ...4280:... in4281INin conference4282NNconference at4283INat that4284DTthat point4285NNpoint ,4286,, and4287CCand there4288EXthere were4289VBDbe several4290JJseveral other4291JJother things4292NNSthing that4293WDTthat were4294VBDbe in4295INin the4296DTthe bill4297NNbill at4298INat that4299DTthat point4300NNpoint .4301SENT. This4302DTthis is4303VBZbe ...4304:... this4305DTthis change4306NNchange was4307VBDbe not4308RBnot the4309DTthe only4310JJonly one4311CDone .4312SENT. The4313DTthe bill4314NNbill was4315VBDbe in4316INin conference4317NNconference ,4318,, and4319CCand they4320PPthey ...4321:... the4322DTthe conference4323NNconference committee4324NNcommittee decided4325VVDdecide that4326IN/thatthat something4327NNsomething should4328MDshould be4329VBbe enacted4330VVNenact ,4331,, rather4332RBrather than4333INthan nothing4334NNnothing done4335VVNdo at4336INat all4337DTall .4338SENT. But4339CCbut ,4340,, as4341RBas to4342TOto this4343DTthis provision4344NNprovision ,4345,, we4346PPwe think4347VVPthink that4348IN/thatthat it4349PPit ...4350:... that4351DTthat ...4352:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4353LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] It4354PPit 's4355VBZbe entirely4356RBentirely superfluous4357JJsuperfluous ?4358SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4359LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] I4360PPI ...4361:... I4362PPI ...4363:... I4364PPI do4365VVPdo n't4366RBn't think4367VVthink 34368CD3 it4369PPit 's4370VBZbe ...4371:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4372LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] It4373PPit does4374VVZdo nothing4375NNnothing ?4376SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4377LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] No4378NPNo ,4379,, I4380PPI do4381VVPdo n't4382RBn't think4383VVthink it4384PPit 's4385VBZbe superfluous4386JJsuperfluous .4387SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4388LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] It4389PPit does4390VVZdo nothing4391NNnothing new4392JJnew ?4393SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4394LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well4395UHwell ,4396,, it4397PPit ...4398:... it4399PPit ...4400:... it4401PPit substitutes4402VVZsubstitute ...4403:... it4404PPit ...4405:... it4406PPit elaborates4407VVZelaborate ...4408:... it4409PPit elaborates4410VVZelaborate on4411RPon ...4412:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4413LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But4414CCbut substantively4415RBsubstantively ...4416:... sorry4417RBsorry ...4418:... it4419PPit does4420VVZdo nothing4421NNnothing new4422JJnew ?4423SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4424LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] No4425NPNo ,4426,, it4427PPit ...4428:... it4429PPit ...4430:... it4431PPit reiterates4432VVZreiterate through4433INthrough the4434DTthe use4435NNuse of4436INof such4437JJsuch ...4438:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4439LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] It4440PPit reiterates4441VVZreiterate ,4442,, okay4443RBokay .4444SENT. It4445PPit reiterates4446VVZreiterate what4447WPwhat 's4448VBZbe already4449RBalready the4450DTthe law4451NNlaw ...4452:... [MR. KNEEDLER]4453LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well4454UHwell ,4455,, it4456PPit was4457VBDbe not4458RBnot ...4459:... it4460PPit was4461VBDbe not4462RBnot in4463INin the4464DTthe ...4465:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4466LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...4467:... which4468WDTwhich is4469VBZbe to4470TOto say4471VVsay it4472PPit is4473VBZbe superfluous4474JJsuperfluous .4475SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]4476LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] It4477PPit was4478VBDbe not4479RBnot in4480INin the4481DTthe statute4482NNstatute in4483INin 19864484CD@card@ .4485SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4486LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Can4487MDcan I4488PPI ...4489:... can4490MDcan I4491PPI take4492VVtake you4493PPyou ...4494:... [MR. KNEEDLER]4495LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] The4496DTthe statute4497NNstatute referred4498VVDrefer to4499TOto regulation4500NNregulation ...4501:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4502LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Can4503MDcan I4504PPI take4505VVtake you4506PPyou back4507RBback just4508RBjust to4509TOto one4510CDone other4511JJother problem4512NNproblem I4513PPI have4514VHPhave ?4515SENT? You4516PPyou want4517VVPwant us4518PPus to4519TOto ...4520:... to4521TOto ...4522:... to4523TOto view4524VVview this4525DTthis statute4526NNstatute as4527INas very4528RBvery carefully4529RBcarefully using4530VVGuse APA4531NPAPA terminology4532NNterminology when4533WRBwhen it4534PPit comes4535VVZcome to4536TOto substantive4537JJsubstantive .4538SENT. But4539CCbut ,4540,, when4541WRBwhen it4542PPit comes4543VVZcome to4544TOto statements4545NNSstatement of4546INof policy4547NNpolicy ,4548,, you4549PPyou want4550VVPwant us4551PPus to4552TOto ignore4553VVignore the4554DTthe fact4555NNfact that4556IN/thatthat what4557WPwhat ...4558:... what4559WPwhat the4560DTthe APA4561NPAPA ...4562:... how4563WRBhow it4564PPit treats4565VVZtreat them4566PPthem and4567CCand say4568VVPsay even4569RBeven faux4570NNfaux statements4571NNSstatement of4572INof policy4573NNpolicy that4574WDTthat are4575VBPbe really4576RBreally rules4577NNSrule and4578CCand requirements4579NNSrequirement and4580CCand regulations4581NNSregulation ,4582,, that4583WDTthat 's4584VBZbe what4585WPwhat it4586PPit 's4587VBZbe aiming4588VVGaim at4589INat .4590SENT. Is4591VBZbe n't4592RBn't that4593IN/thatthat a4594DTa problem4595NNproblem for4596INfor you4597PPyou too4598RBtoo ?4599SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4600LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] No4601NPNo ,4602,, I4603PPI do4604VVPdo n't4605RBn't ...4606:... I4607PPI do4608VVPdo n't4609RBn't think4610VVthink so4611RBso because4612INbecause the4613DTthe ...4614:... the4615DTthe statement4616NNstatement of4617INof policy4618NNpolicy is4619VBZbe in4620INin the4621DTthe opening4622NNopening clause4623NNclause ,4624,, which4625WDTwhich refers4626VVZrefer to4627TOto rules4628NNSrule ,4629,, which4630WDTwhich could4631MDcould include4632VVinclude interpretive4633JJinterpretive rules4634NNSrule ,4635,, requirement4636NNrequirement ,4637,, or4638CCor statement4639NNstatement of4640INof policy4641NNpolicy .4642SENT. Those4643DTthose are4644VBPbe descriptions4645NNSdescription of4646INof the4647DTthe kind4648NNkind of4649INof agency4650NNagency issues4651NNSissue ...4652:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4653LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But4654CCbut when4655WRBwhen is4656VBZbe ever4657RBever a4658DTa statement4659NNstatement of4660INof policy4661NNpolicy binding4662NNbinding ?4663SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4664LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Pardon4665NPPardon me4666PPme ?4667SENT? [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4668LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Meaning4669NNmeaning ,4670,, when4671WRBwhen is4672VBZbe a4673DTa statement4674NNstatement ...4675:... if4676INif it4677PPit 's4678VBZbe not4679RBnot a4680DTa rule4681NNrule or4682CCor regulation4683NNregulation ,4684,, if4685INif it4686PPit 's4687VBZbe just4688RBjust a4689DTa statement4690NNstatement of4691INof policy4692NNpolicy ,4693,, when4694WRBwhen is4695VBZbe it4696PPit ever4697RBever binding4698JJbinding as4699INas you4700PPyou 've4701VHPhave defined4702VVNdefine "4703``" binding4704JJbinding "4705''" ?4706SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4707LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] I4708PPI ...4709:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4710LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Is4711VBZbe n't4712RBn't policy4713NNpolicy something4714NNsomething that4715WDTthat can4716MDcan be4717VBbe challenged4718VVNchallenge ?4719SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]4720LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] It4721PPit ...4722:... it4723PPit ...4724:... it4725PPit is4726VBZbe ,4727,, but4728CCbut I4729PPI think4730VVPthink it4731PPit 's4732VBZbe important4733JJimportant for4734INfor the4735DTthe Court4736NPCourt to4737TOto focus4738VVfocus on4739INon the4740DTthe ...4741:... on4742INon the4743DTthe operative4744JJoperative language4745NNlanguage ,4746,, which4747WDTwhich is4748VBZbe whether4749INwhether it4750PPit changes4751VVZchange ...4752:... establishes4753VVZestablish or4754CCor changes4755VVZchange a4756DTa substantive4757JJsubstantive legal4758JJlegal standard4759NNstandard .4760SENT. That4761DTthat 's4762VBZbe what4763WPwhat Congress4764NPCongress enacted4765VVDenact .4766SENT. I4767PPI 'd4768MDwould also4769RBalso like4770VVlike to4771TOto point4772VVpoint out4773RPout what4774WPwhat the4775DTthe consequences4776NNSconsequence of4777INof this4778DTthis for4779INfor the4780DTthe Medicare4781NPMedicare program4782NNprogram are4783VBPbe .4784SENT. As4785RBas ...4786:... as4787INas this4788DTthis Court4789NPCourt has4790VHZhave pointed4791VVNpoint out4792RPout in4793INin Guernsey4794NPGuernsey Memorial4795NPMemorial Hospital4796NPHospital and4797CCand other4798JJother cases4799NNScase ,4800,, the4801DTthe Medicare4802NPMedicare program4803NNprogram has4804VHZhave ,4805,, you4806PPyou know4807VVPknow ,4808,, hundreds4809NNShundred of4810INof pages4811NNSpage of4812INof statutes4813NNSstatute ,4814,, probably4815RBprobably thousands4816NNSthousand of4817INof pages4818NNSpage of4819INof regulations4820NNSregulation ,4821,, but4822CCbut the4823DTthe Court4824NPCourt has4825VHZhave recognized4826VVNrecognize that4827IN/thatthat that4828DTthat can4829MDcan 't4830RB't answer4831VVanswer all4832DTall questions4833NNSquestion that4834WDTthat come4835VVPcome up4836RPup .4837SENT. And4838CCand ...4839:... and4840CCand the4841DTthe Court4842NPCourt in4843INin Guernsey4844NPGuernsey recognized4845VVDrecognize the4846DTthe importance4847NNimportance of4848INof interpretive4849JJinterpretive materials4850NNSmaterial like4851VVPlike ,4852,, in4853INin that4854DTthat case4855NNcase ,4856,, a4857DTa provision4858NNprovision in4859INin the4860DTthe provider4861NNprovider reimbursement4862NNreimbursement manual4863NNmanual .4864SENT. There4865EXthere are4866VBPbe similar4867JJsimilar manuals4868NNSmanual governing4869VVGgovern the4870DTthe program4871NNprogram integrity4872NNintegrity for4873INfor hospitals4874NNShospital and4875CCand doctors4876NNSdoctor and4877CCand ...4878:... and4879CCand ...4880:... and4881CCand whatnot4882NNwhatnot .4883SENT. There4884EXthere are4885VBPbe still4886RBstill reimbursement4887NNreimbursement issues4888NNSissue that4889WDTthat are4890VBPbe ...4891:... that4892WDTthat are4893VBPbe fleshed4894VVNflesh out4895RPout in4896INin the4897DTthe manual4898NNmanual .4899SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4900LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But4901CCbut I4902PPI look4903VVPlook at4904INat the4905DTthe subsequent4906JJsubsequent history4907NNhistory of4908INof this4909DTthis in4910RBin ...4911:... in4912INin the4913DTthe D4914NPD .4915SENT. C4916LSc .4917SENT. Circuit4918NNcircuit ,4919,, and4920CCand I4921PPI look4922VVPlook at4923INat Clarian4924NPClarian Health4925NPHealth West4926NPWest ,4927,, and4928CCand your4929PP$your fears4930NNSfear there4931RBthere are4932VBPbe overstated4933VVNoverstate .4934SENT. A4935DTa fairly4936RBfairly significant4937JJsignificant change4938NNchange was4939VBDbe held4940VVNhold not4941RBnot to4942TOto be4943VBbe encompassed4944VVNencompass by4945INby this4946DTthis provision4947NNprovision because4948INbecause it4949PPit really4950RBreally was4951VBDbe just4952RBjust following4953VVGfollow the4954DTthe statute4955NNstatute .4956SENT. This4957DTthis is4958VBZbe filling4959VVGfill a4960DTa gap4961NNgap in4962INin the4963DTthe statute4964NNstatute .4965SENT. I4966PPI do4967VVPdo n't4968RBn't know4969VVknow what4970WPwhat else4971RBelse is4972VBZbe clearly4973RBclearly more4974RBRmore a4975DTa policy4976NNpolicy than4977INthan that4978IN/thatthat when4979WRBwhen you4980PPyou 're4981VBPbe filling4982VVGfill in4983INin a4984DTa gap4985NNgap as4986RBas opposed4987VVNoppose to4988TOto interpreting4989VVGinterpret a4990DTa statute4991NNstatute .4992SENT. And4993CCand that4994DTthat seems4995VVZseem to4996TOto be4997VBbe the4998DTthe distinction4999NNdistinction the5000DTthe D5001NPD .5002SENT. C5003SYMc ...5004:... .5005SENT. D5006LSd .5007SENT. C5008LSc .5009SENT. Circuit5010NPCircuit is5011VBZbe applying5012VVGapply .5013SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]5014LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well5015UHWell ,5016,, Clarian5017NPClarian did5018VVDdo not5019RBnot go5020VVgo to5021TOto the5022DTthe substantive5023JJsubstantive provisions5024NNSprovision for5025INfor reimbursement5026NNreimbursement .5027SENT. It5028PPit had5029VHDhave to5030TOto do5031VVdo with5032INwith a5033DTa procedure5034NNprocedure for5035INfor various5036JJvarious screening5037NNscreening .5038SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5039LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That5040DTthat 's5041VBZbe my5042PP$my point5043NNpoint .5044SENT. That5045DTthat 's5046VBZbe my5047PP$my point5048NNpoint .5049SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]5050LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Yes5051NPYes ,5052,, but5053CCbut it5054PPit ...5055:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5056LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Which5057WDTwhich is5058VBZbe not5059RBnot everything5060NNeverything is5061VBZbe going5062VVGgo to5063TOto come5064VVcome under5065INunder this5066DTthis .5067SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]5068LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] It5069PPit 's5070VBZbe not5071RBnot everything5072NNeverything ,5073,, but5074CCbut it5075PPit ...5076:... but5077CCbut it5078PPit ...5079:... but5080CCbut it5081PPit certainly5082RBcertainly would5083MDwould subject5084VVsubject to5085TOto notice-and-comment5086NNnotice-and-comment rule5087NNrule ...5088:... rulemaking5089VVGrulemak a5090DTa broad5091JJbroad swath5092NNswath of5093INof what5094WPwhat has5095VHZhave never5096RBnever been5097VBNbe done5098VVNdo .5099SENT. This5100DTthis is5101VBZbe ...5102:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5103LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well5104UHWell ,5105,, on5106INon that5107DTthat ...5108:... on5109INon that5110DTthat ...5111:... [MR. KNEEDLER]5112LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] ...5113:... this5114DTthis is5115VBZbe 305116CD@card@ years5117NNSyear later5118RBRlater in5119INin HHS5120NPHHS ...5121:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5122LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...5123:... on5124INon that5125DTthat ...5126:... on5127INon that5128DTthat ,5129,, though5130RBthough ,5131,, I5132PPI do5133VVPdo n't5134RBn't doubt5135VVdoubt it5136PPit 's5137VBZbe more5138RBRmore convenient5139JJconvenient for5140INfor the5141DTthe government5142NNgovernment to5143TOto proceed5144VVproceed through5145INthrough adjudication5146NNadjudication of5147INof an5148DTan individual5149JJindividual case5150NNcase and5151CCand announce5152VVannounce a5153DTa new5154JJnew rule5155NNrule that5156WDTthat applies5157VVZapply to5158TOto the5159DTthe whole5160NNwhole of5161INof society5162NNsociety without5163INwithout inviting5164VVGinvite comment5165NNcomment and5166CCand providing5167VVGprovide notice5168NNnotice to5169TOto everyone5170NNeveryone affected5171VVDaffect .5172SENT. Surely5173RBsurely ,5174,, I5175PPI ...5176:... I5177PPI get5178VVPget that5179IN/thatthat that5180DTthat 's5181VBZbe easier5182JJReasy and5183CCand preferable5184JJpreferable ,5185,, certainly5186RBcertainly more5187RBRmore efficient5188JJefficient .5189SENT. But5190CCbut could5191MDcould n't5192RBn't Congress5193NPCongress make5194VVmake rationally5195RBrationally an5196DTan alternative5197JJalternative decision5198NNdecision that5199IN/thatthat informal5200JJinformal rulemaking5201VVGrulemak ,5202,, not5203RBnot even5204RBeven formal5205JJformal rulemaking5206VVGrulemak ,5207,, that5208WDTthat 's5209VBZbe gone5210VVNgo by5211INby the5212DTthe boards5213NNSboard ,5214,, but5215CCbut just5216RBjust informal5217JJinformal notice5218NNnotice and5219CCand comment5220VVcomment to5221TOto affected5222JJaffected parties5223NNSparty in5224INin something5225NNsomething as5226INas significant5227JJsignificant as5228INas changing5229VVGchange the5230DTthe formula5231NNformula for5232INfor Medicare5233NPMedicare for5234INfor all5235DTall Medicare5236NPMedicare providers5237NNSprovider nationwide5238RBnationwide ,5239,, that5240IN/thatthat maybe5241RBmaybe they5242PPthey should5243MDshould have5244VHhave 605245CD@card@ days5246NNSday to5247TOto at5248INat least5249JJSleast throw5250VVthrow in5251INin their5252PP$their comments5253NNScomment .5254SENT. [MR. KNEEDLER]5255LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Well5256UHWell ,5257,, first5258JJfirst of5259INof all5260DTall ,5261,, the5262DTthe agency5263NNagency has5264VHZhave tried5265VVNtry to5266TOto go5267VVgo through5268INthrough notice-and-comment5269NNnotice-and-comment rulemaking5270VVGrulemak twice5271RBtwice on5272INon this5273DTthis .5274SENT. It5275PPit did5276VVDdo ...5277:... it5278PPit did5279VVDdo it5280PPit in5281INin 20045282CD@card@ ,5283,, when5284WRBwhen the5285DTthe issue5286NNissue was5287VBDbe brought5288VVNbring to5289TOto its5290PP$its attention5291NNattention .5292SENT. It5293PPit did5294VVDdo it5295PPit in5296INin 20135297CD@card@ .5298SENT. It5299PPit recognizes5300VVZrecognize that5301DTthat .5302SENT. But5303CCbut what5304WPwhat it5305PPit did5306VVDdo here5307RBhere was5308VBDbe ...5309:... was5310VBDbe not5311RBnot ...5312:... not5313RBnot establish5314VVestablish a5315DTa binding5316JJbinding provision5317NNprovision that5318WDTthat has5319VHZhave the5320DTthe force5321NNforce and5322CCand effect5323NNeffect of5324INof law5325NNlaw but5326CCbut simply5327RBsimply furnish5328VVfurnish fractions5329NNSfraction to5330TOto the5331DTthe contractors5332NNScontractor who5333WPwho were5334VBDbe performing5335VVGperform calculations5336NNScalculation at5337INat the5338DTthe very5339RBvery first5340JJfirst stage5341NNstage of5342INof the5343DTthe ...5344:... of5345INof the5346DTthe process5347NNprocess .5348SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]5349LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could5350MDcould I5351PPI very5352RBvery quickly5353RBquickly ask5354VVask you5355PPyou ,5356,, given5357VVNgive Clarian5358NPClarian Health5359NPHealth ,5360,, what5361WPwhat consequences5362NNSconsequence are5363VBPbe you5364PPyou afraid5365JJafraid of5366INof ?5367SENT? [MR. KNEEDLER]5368LOC[MR. KNEEDLER] Afraid5369JJafraid of5370INof ,5371,, again5372RBagain ,5373,, the5374DTthe broad5375JJbroad swath5376NNswath of5377INof ...5378:... of5379INof manual5380JJmanual provisions5381NNSprovision that5382RBthat ...5383:... I5384PPI mean5385VVPmean ,5386,, that5387WDTthat ...5388:... that5389IN/thatthat really5390RBreally just5391RBjust dealt5392VVNdeal with5393INwith procedures5394NNSprocedure .5395SENT. I5396PPI mean5397VVPmean ,5398,, I5399PPI ...5400:... in5401INin ...5402:... in5403INin one5404CDone respect5405NNrespect ,5406,, you5407PPyou could5408MDcould look5409VVlook at5410INat it5411PPit as5412RBas ...5413:... as5414INas recognizing5415VVGrecognize the5416DTthe procedures5417NNSprocedure .5418SENT. Procedural5419JJprocedural rules5420NNSrule are5421VBPbe not5422RBnot covered5423VVNcover by5424INby notice5425NNnotice and5426CCand comment5427NNcomment under5428INunder the5429DTthe APA5430NPAPA .5431SENT. A5432DTa procedure5433NNprocedure about5434INabout how5435WRBhow contractors5436NNScontractor are5437VBPbe supposed5438VVNsuppose to5439TOto evaluate5440VVevaluate certain5441JJcertain situations5442NNSsituation without5443INwithout changing5444VVGchange substantive5445JJsubstantive standards5446NNSstandard is5447VBZbe n't5448RBn't ...5449:... is5450VBZbe n't5451RBn't covered5452VVNcover .5453SENT. And5454CCand that5455DTthat 's5456VBZbe our5457PP$our ...5458:... you5459PPyou know5460VVPknow ,5461,, when5462WRBwhen it5463PPit comes5464VVZcome to5465TOto interpretive5466JJinterpretive rules5467NNSrule ,5468,, that5469WDTthat 's5470VBZbe our5471PP$our position5472NNposition ,5473,, because5474INbecause they5475PPthey ...5476:... they5477PPthey explain5478VVPexplain the5479DTthe agency5480NNagency 's5481POS's own5482JJown interpretation5483NNinterpretation ,5484,, but5485CCbut it5486PPit 's5487VBZbe the5488DTthe statute5489NNstatute that5490WDTthat governs5491VVZgovern ,5492,, not5493RBnot ...5494:... and5495CCand this5496DTthis is5497VBZbe not5498RBnot a5499DTa regulation5500NNregulation that5501WDTthat establishes5502VVZestablish a5503DTa substantive5504JJsubstantive legal5505JJlegal standard5506NNstandard on5507INon its5508PP$its own5509JJown terms5510NNSterm .5511SENT. If5512INif I5513PPI may5514MDmay reserve5515VVreserve the5516DTthe balance5517NNbalance of5518INof my5519PP$my time5520NNtime .5521SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5522LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5523VVthank you5524PPyou ,5525,, Mr5526NPMr .5527SENT. Kneedler5528NPKneedler .5529SENT. Mr5530NPMr .5531SENT. Shah5532NNshah .5533SENT.