[MR. BHABHA]21LOC[MR. BHABHA] Thank22VVthank you23PPyou ,24,, Mr25NPMr .26SENT. Chief27NPChief Justice28NPJustice ,29,, and30CCand may31MDmay it32PPit please33VVplease the34DTthe Court35NPCourt :36:: When37WRBwhen a38DTa vocational39JJvocational expert40NNexpert testifies41VVZtestify about42INabout the43DTthe existence44NNexistence of45INof a46DTa specific47JJspecific number48NNnumber of49INof jobs50NNSjob in51INin a52DTa specific53JJspecific location54NNlocation at55INat a56DTa specific57JJspecific time58NNtime ,59,, that60DTthat testimony61NNtestimony can62MDcan only63RBonly be64VBbe based65VVNbase on66INon statistical67JJstatistical data-driven68JJdata-driven sources69NNSsource .70SENT. And71CCand when72WRBwhen the73DTthe expert74NNexpert refuses75VVZrefuse upon76INupon request77NNrequest to78TOto provide79VVprovide those80DTthose sources81NNSsource ,82,, the83DTthe expert84NNexpert 's85POS's testimony86NNtestimony ,87,, standing88VVGstand alone89RBalone ,90,, cannot91MDcan constitute92VVconstitute substantial93JJsubstantial evidence94NNevidence for95INfor three96CDthree reasons97NNSreason .98SENT. First99RBfirst ,100,, this101DTthis Court102NPCourt 's103POS's definition104NNdefinition of105INof the106DTthe term107NNterm "108``" substantial109JJsubstantial evidence110NNevidence "111''" and112CCand its113PP$its application114NNapplication of115INof that116DTthat term117NNterm in118INin reviewing119VVGreview the120DTthe decisions121NNSdecision of122INof administrative123JJadministrative tribunals124NNStribunal .125SENT. Second126RBsecond ,127,, because128INbecause the129DTthe government130NNgovernment 's131POS's arguments132NNSargument as133INas to134TOto why135WRBwhy the136DTthe expert137NNexpert 's138POS's testimony139NNtestimony standing140NNstanding alone141RBalone is142VBZbe sufficient143JJsufficient are144NNare unpersuasive145NNunpersuasive .146SENT. And147CCand ,148,, third149JJthird ,150,, because151INbecause this152DTthis is153VBZbe the154DTthe rule155NNrule that156WDTthat has157VHZhave worked158VVNwork since159INsince 2002160CD@card@ in161INin the162DTthe Seventh163NPSeventh Circuit164NPCircuit and165CCand ,166,, indeed167RBindeed ,168,, is169VBZbe consistent170JJconsistent with171INwith the172DTthe government173NNgovernment 's174POS's own175JJown policy176NNpolicy ,177,, as178RBas encapsulated179VVNencapsulate in180INin the181DTthe Social182NPSocial Security183NPSecurity Administration184NPAdministration 's185POS's Vocational186JJvocational Expert187NNexpert Handbook188NNhandbook .189SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]190LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] The191DTthe counsel192NNcounsel for193INfor the194DTthe claimant195NNclaimant asked196VVDask for197INfor the198DTthe source199NNsource material200NNmaterial but201CCbut then202RBthen did203VVDdo n't204RBn't engage205VVengage in206INin any207DTany cross-examination208NNcross-examination of209INof ...210:... of211INof the212DTthe witness213NNwitness ,214,, of215INof the216DTthe expert217NNexpert witness218NNwitness .219SENT. [MR. BHABHA]220LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your221PP$your Honor222NPHonor ,223,, as224INas a225DTa factual226JJfactual matter227NNmatter ,228,, after229INafter being230VBGbe denied231VVNdeny the232DTthe material233NNmaterial ,234,, he235PPhe did236VVDdo engage237VVengage in238INin some239DTsome cross-examination240NNcross-examination that241WDTthat appears242VVZappear in243INin the244DTthe record245NNrecord .246SENT. But247CCbut I248PPI think249VVPthink critical250JJcritical ,251,, Your252PP$your Honor253NPHonor ,254,, is255VBZbe that256IN/thatthat ,257,, without258INwithout the259DTthe material260NNmaterial itself261PPitself ,262,, any263DTany meaningful264JJmeaningful cross-examination265NNcross-examination regarding266VVGregard the267DTthe expert268NNexpert 's269POS's methodology270NNmethodology ,271,, the272DTthe provenance273NNprovenance of274INof the275DTthe expert276NNexpert 's277POS's labor278NNlabor market279NNmarket surveys280NNSsurvey was281VBDbe impossible282JJimpossible .283SENT. And284CCand I285PPI would286MDwould note287VVnote that288IN/thatthat it289PPit would290MDwould be291VBbe a292DTa rare293JJrare case294NNcase when295WRBwhen you296PPyou would297MDwould be298VBbe asked299VVNask to300TOto cross-examine301VVcross-examine a302DTa statistical303JJstatistical expert304NNexpert who305WPwho is306VBZbe opining307VVGopine upon308INupon specific309JJspecific numbers310NNSnumber that311IN/thatthat the312DTthe expert313NNexpert has314VHZhave then315RBthen modified316VVNmodify through317INthrough calculations318NNScalculation without319INwithout actually320RBactually seeing321VVGsee the322DTthe data323NNdata sources324NNSsource itself325PPitself .326SENT. I327PPI think328VVPthink this329DTthis Court330NPCourt 's331POS's decision332NNdecision in333INin Florida334NPFlorida Power335NPPower &336CC& Light337NPLight is338VBZbe an339DTan important340JJimportant precedent341NNprecedent in342INin this343DTthis respect344NNrespect because345INbecause ,346,, there347RBthere ,348,, the349DTthe Court350NPCourt noted351VVDnote that352IN/thatthat the353DTthe testimony354NNtestimony ,355,, the356DTthe well-founded357JJwell-founded testimony358NNtestimony of359INof an360DTan expert361NNexpert may362MDmay be363VBbe enough364JJenough if365INif firsthand366JJfirsthand information367NNinformation is368VBZbe unavailable369JJunavailable .370SENT. And371CCand ,372,, here373RBhere ,374,, particularly375RBparticularly because376INbecause there377EXthere were378VBDbe two379CDtwo sources380NNSsource the381DTthe expert382NNexpert relied383VVNrely upon384RPupon ,385,, the386DTthe Bureau387NPBureau of388INof Labor389NPLabor Statistics390NPSStatistics data391NNSdatum ,392,, which393WDTwhich was394VBDbe public395JJpublic ,396,, but397CCbut then398RBthen also399RBalso her400PP$her private401JJprivate labor402NNlabor market403NNmarket surveys404NNSsurvey ,405,, which406WDTwhich the407DTthe ALJ408NPALJ never409RBnever saw410VVDsee and411CCand we412PPwe never413RBnever saw414VVDsee ,415,, that416WDTthat made417VVDmake any418DTany form419NNform of420INof cross-examination421NNcross-examination or422CCor meaningful423JJmeaningful inquiry424NNinquiry into425INinto the426DTthe basis427NNbasis for428INfor these429DTthese numbers430NNSnumber impossible431JJimpossible .432SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]433LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] What434WPWhat I435PPI do436VVPdo n't437RBn't understand438VVunderstand about439INabout your440PP$your argument441NNargument is442VBZbe how443WRBhow it444PPit connects445VVZconnect with446INwith the447DTthe substantial448JJsubstantial evidence449NNevidence question450NNquestion .451SENT. Substantial452JJsubstantial evidence453NNevidence refers454VVZrefer to455TOto a456DTa quantum457NNquantum of458INof proof459NNproof ,460,, and461CCand I462PPI ...463:... it464PPit 's465VBZbe hard466JJhard for467INfor me468PPme to469TOto see470VVsee why471WRBwhy that472DTthat inquiry473NNinquiry is474VBZbe different475JJdifferent depending476VVGdepend on477INon whether478INwhether the479DTthe underlying480VVGunderlie information481NNinformation in482INin question483NNquestion ...484:... in485INin question486NNquestion was487VBDbe requested488VVNrequest or489CCor not490RBnot .491SENT. The492DTthe ...493:... the494DTthe argument495NNargument that496IN/thatthat you497PPyou 're498VBPbe making499VVGmake sounds500NNSsound like501INlike a502DTa procedural503JJprocedural question504NNquestion ,505,, a506DTa due507JJdue process508NNprocess question509NNquestion ,510,, whether511INwhether it512PPit was513VBDbe unfair514JJunfair not515RBnot to516TOto require517VVrequire the518DTthe expert519NNexpert to520TOto produce521VVproduce the522DTthe underlying523VVGunderlie data524NNSdatum .525SENT. Can526NNcan ...527:... can528MDcan you529PPyou just530RBjust explain531VVexplain how532WRBhow the533DTthe procedural534JJprocedural question535NNquestion that536WDTthat seems537VVZseem to538TOto be539VBbe at540INat the541DTthe core542NNcore of543INof what544WPwhat you545PPyou 're546VBPbe arguing547VVGargue fits548NNSfit in549INin with550INwith the551DTthe substantial552JJsubstantial evidence553NNevidence test554NNtest ?555SENT? [MR. BHABHA]556LOC[MR. BHABHA] Of557INof course558NNcourse ,559,, Your560PP$your Honor561NPHonor .562SENT. So563RBso I564PPI think565VVPthink we566PPwe have567VHPhave two568CDtwo answers569NNSanswer to570TOto that571DTthat question572NNquestion .573SENT. First574JJfirst and575CCand foremost576RBforemost ,577,, we578PPwe are579VBPbe not580RBnot asking581VVGask for582INfor the583DTthe document-on-demand584NNdocument-on-demand procedural585JJprocedural rule586NNrule that587IN/thatthat the588DTthe government589NNgovernment characterizes590VVZcharacterize us591PPus .592SENT. The593DTthe government594NNgovernment ,595,, who596WPwho bears597VVZbear the598DTthe burden599NNburden at600INat step601NNstep 5602CD5 ,603,, is604VBZbe choosing605VVGchoose in606INin these607DTthese cases608NNScase to609TOto only610RBonly rely611VVrely on612INon the613DTthe testimony614NNtestimony of615INof a616DTa vocational617JJvocational expert618NNexpert .619SENT. Now620RBnow the621DTthe government622NNgovernment has623VHZhave at624INat its625PP$its availability626NNavailability to627TOto enter628VVenter other629JJother evidence630NNevidence into631INinto the632DTthe record633NNrecord as634INas well635RBwell .636SENT. If637INif the638DTthe government639NNgovernment chose640VVDchoose to641TOto submit642VVsubmit its643PP$its own644JJown labor645NNlabor market646NNmarket surveys647NNSsurvey ,648,, we649PPwe would650MDwould not651RBnot say652VVsay ,653,, and654CCand are655VBPbe not656RBnot saying657VVGsay ,658,, that659IN/thatthat there660EXthere 's661VBZbe a662DTa stand-alone663JJstand-alone constitutional664JJconstitutional violation665NNviolation because666INbecause the667DTthe vocational668JJvocational expert669NNexpert did670VVDdo n't671RBn't give672VVgive her673PP$her surveys674NNSsurvey .675SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]676LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well677UHwell ,678,, I679PPI know680VVPknow you681PPyou 're682VBPbe not683RBnot saying684VVGsay that685IN/thatthat ,686,, but687CCbut you688PPyou have689VHPhave a690DTa quantum691NNquantum of692INof evidence693NNevidence ;694:; it695PPit 's696VBZbe substantial697JJsubstantial or698CCor it699PPit 's700VBZbe not701RBnot substantial702JJsubstantial .703SENT. Explain704VVexplain ,705,, if706INif you707PPyou can708MDcan ,709,, why710WRBwhy the711DTthe question712NNquestion of713INof ...714:... the715DTthe issue716NNissue of717INof substantiality718NNsubstantiality depends719VVZdepend on720INon whether721INwhether the722DTthe evidence723NNevidence was724VBDbe asked725VVNask for726INfor or727CCor not728RBnot .729SENT. [MR. BHABHA]730LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your731PP$your Honor732NPHonor ,733,, I734PPI think735VVPthink it736PPit flows737VVZflow from738INfrom the739DTthe basic740JJbasic intuition741NNintuition that742IN/thatthat when743WRBwhen you744PPyou question745VVPquestion an746DTan expert747NNexpert about748INabout data749NNSdatum ,750,, if751INif the752DTthe expert753NNexpert cannot754MDcan then755RBthen back756VVback up757RPup their758PP$their testimony759NNtestimony ,760,, that761WDTthat creates762VVZcreate doubt763NNdoubt .764SENT. And765CCand although766INalthough I767PPI do768VVPdo n't769RBn't think770VVthink it771PPit 's772VBZbe an773DTan exact774JJexact match775NNmatch ,776,, I777PPI think778VVPthink a779DTa useful780JJuseful analogy781NNanalogy are782VBPbe the783DTthe adverse784JJadverse inference785NNinference cases786NNScase ,787,, which788WDTwhich this789DTthis Court790NPCourt has791VHZhave recognized792VVNrecognize when793WRBwhen a794DTa party795NNparty or796CCor a797DTa witness798NNwitness says799VVZsay I800PPI am801VBPbe presenting802VVGpresent evidence803NNevidence to804TOto the805DTthe court806NNcourt ,807,, but808CCbut there809EXthere is810VBZbe better811JJRgood evidence812NNevidence somewhere813RBsomewhere else814RBelse that815DTthat substantiates816VVZsubstantiate what817WPwhat I818PPI am819VBPbe saying820VVGsay ...821:... [JUSTICE ALITO]822LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well823UHwell ,824,, I825PPI ...826:... I827PPI see828VVPsee that829DTthat argument830NNargument .831SENT. Now832RBnow ,833,, in834INin this835DTthis case836NNcase ,837,, was838VBDbe it839PPit the840DTthe attorney841NNattorney for842INfor ...843:... who844WPwho was845VBDbe it846PPit who847WPwho said848VVDsay that849IN/thatthat the850DTthe ...851:... the852DTthe expert853NNexpert was854VBDbe not855RBnot required856VVNrequire to857TOto produce858VVproduce the859DTthe evidence860NNevidence ?861SENT? Was862VBDbe there863RBthere opposition864NNopposition on865INon ...866:... by867INby your868PP$your adversary869NNadversary ,870,, or871CCor was872VBDbe it873PPit the874DTthe ...875:... the876DTthe ALJ877NPALJ ?878SENT? [MR. BHABHA]879LOC[MR. BHABHA] It880PPit was881VBDbe the882DTthe ALJ883NPALJ .884SENT. And885CCand so886RBso ,887,, Your888PP$your Honor889NPHonor ,890,, what891WPwhat I892PPI think893VVPthink is894VBZbe critical895JJcritical here896RBhere is897VBZbe that898IN/thatthat ,899,, when900WRBwhen the901DTthe government902NNgovernment says903VVZsay the904DTthe record905NNrecord is906VBZbe exactly907RBexactly the908DTthe same909JJsame ,910,, it911PPit is912VBZbe not913RBnot .914SENT. If915INif ,916,, for917INfor example918NNexample ,919,, the920DTthe expert921NNexpert had922VHDhave said923VVNsay when924WRBwhen questioned925VVDquestion for926INfor the927DTthe data928NNSdatum I929PPI have930VHPhave a931DTa source932NNsource ,933,, but934CCbut I935PPI 'm936VBPbe not937RBnot going938VVGgo to939TOto identify940VVidentify it941PPit ,942,, I943PPI 'm944VBPbe not945RBnot going946VVGgo to947TOto show948VVshow it949PPit to950TOto you951PPyou ,952,, I953PPI think954VVPthink that955IN/thatthat would956MDwould create957VVcreate real958JJreal doubt959NNdoubt .960SENT. And961CCand here962RBhere ...963:... [JUSTICE ALITO]964LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah965UHYeah ,966,, I967PPI ...968:... I969PPI see970VVPsee that971RBthat .972SENT. But973CCbut ,974,, when975WRBwhen the976DTthe ...977:... the978DTthe expert979NNexpert says980VVZsay this981DTthis is982VBZbe my983PP$my opinion984NNopinion ,985,, and986CCand you987PPyou say988VVPsay produce989VVproduce the990DTthe underlying991VVGunderlie evidence992NNevidence ,993,, and994CCand the995DTthe expert996NNexpert does997VVZdo n't998RBn't say999VVsay no1000UHno ,1001,, I1002PPI 'm1003VBPbe not1004RBnot going1005VVGgo to1006TOto do1007VVdo that1008IN/thatthat ,1009,, I1010PPI won1011MDwill 't1012RB't do1013VVPdo that1014IN/thatthat ,1015,, somebody1016NNsomebody ...1017:... the1018DTthe ...1019:... the1020DTthe judge1021NNjudge intervenes1022VVZintervene and1023CCand says1024VVZsay no1025RBno ,1026,, that1027WDTthat 's1028VBZbe not1029RBnot required1030JJrequired ,1031,, why1032WRBwhy does1033VVZdo that1034RBthat create1035VVcreate doubt1036NNdoubt about1037INabout the1038DTthe validity1039NNvalidity of1040INof the1041DTthe expert1042NNexpert 's1043POS's testimony1044NNtestimony ?1045SENT? The1046DTthe expert1047NNexpert has1048VHZhave n't1049RBn't refused1050VVNrefuse to1051TOto produce1052VVproduce that1053DTthat evidence1054NNevidence .1055SENT. It1056PPit 's1057VHZhave been1058VBNbe the1059DTthe intervention1060NNintervention by1061INby the1062DTthe ALJ1063NPALJ .1064SENT. [MR. BHABHA]1065LOC[MR. BHABHA] So1066RBso ,1067,, Your1068PP$your Honor1069NPHonor ,1070,, if1071INif I1072PPI can1073MDcan just1074RBjust clarify1075VVclarify .1076SENT. It1077PPit was1078VBDbe both1079DTboth here1080RBhere .1081SENT. The1082DTthe expert1083NNexpert said1084VVDsay that1085IN/thatthat data1086NNdata is1087VBZbe in1088INin my1089PP$my confidential1090JJconfidential client1091NNclient files1092NNSfile and1093CCand ,1094,, therefore1095RBtherefore ,1096,, I1097PPI do1098VVPdo n't1099RBn't want1100VVwant to1101TOto produce1102VVproduce it1103PPit .1104SENT. And1105CCand the1106DTthe ALJ1107NPALJ said1108VVDsay ,1109,, I1110PPI 'm1111VBPbe not1112RBnot going1113VVGgo to1114TOto require1115VVrequire that1116DTthat .1117SENT. And1118CCand I1119PPI would1120MDwould note1121VVnote that1122IN/thatthat the1123DTthe government1124NNgovernment does1125VVZdo n't1126RBn't defend1127VVdefend in1128INin this1129DTthis Court1130NPCourt the1131DTthe confidentiality1132NNconfidentiality rationale1133NNrationale .1134SENT. And1135CCand I1136PPI think1137VVPthink the1138DTthe reason1139NNreason for1140INfor that1141DTthat ,1142,, Your1143PP$your Honor1144NPHonor ,1145,, is1146VBZbe that1147IN/thatthat ,1148,, as1149INas the1150DTthe claimant1151NNclaimant 's1152POS's lawyer1153NNlawyer said1154VVDsay below1155RBbelow ,1156,, it1157PPit would1158MDwould be1159VBbe easy1160JJeasy to1161TOto redact1162VVredact or1163CCor black1164VVblack out1165RPout the1166DTthe names1167NNSname of1168INof the1169DTthe clients1170NNSclient .1171SENT. Indeed1172RBindeed ,1173,, federal1174JJfederal courts1175NNScourt and1176CCand administrative1177JJadministrative agencies1178NNSagency deal1179NNdeal with1180INwith highly1181RBhighly sensitive1182JJsensitive information1183NNinformation about1184INabout national1185JJnational security1186NNsecurity or1187CCor intellectual1188JJintellectual property1189NNproperty every1190DTevery day1191NNday .1192SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1193LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] But1194CCbut here1195RBhere 's1196VBZbe the1197DTthe thing1198NNthing I1199PPI do1200VVPdo n't1201RBn't understand1202VVunderstand .1203SENT. Sure1204RBsure ,1205,, maybe1206RBmaybe he1207PPhe made1208VVDmake a1209DTa ...1210:... you1211PPyou 're1212VBPbe right1213RBright in1214INin this1215DTthis case1216NNcase ,1217,, maybe1218RBmaybe .1219SENT. But1220CCbut ,1221,, I1222PPI mean1223VVPmean ,1224,, even1225RBeven if1226INif we1227PPwe were1228VBDbe in1229INin court1230NNcourt ,1231,, experts1232NNSexpert rely1233VVPrely on1234INon all1235DTall kinds1236NNSkind of1237INof things1238NNSthing .1239SENT. And1240CCand if1241INif you1242PPyou ...1243:... the1244DTthe other1245JJother side1246NNside makes1247VVZmake a1248DTa case1249NNcase ,1250,, says1251VVZsay what1252WPwhat ...1253:... what1254WPwhat are1255VBPbe you1256PPyou relying1257VVGrely on1258INon for1259INfor your1260PP$your conclusion1261NNconclusion ,1262,, he1263PPhe says1264VVZsay ,1265,, I1266PPI 'm1267VBPbe relying1268VVGrely on1269INon Ptolemy1270NPPtolemy .1271SENT. Not1272RBnot Copernicus1273NPCopernicus ?1274SENT? No1275RBno ,1276,, Ptolemy1277NPPtolemy .1278SENT. Well1279UHwell ,1280,, that1281WDTthat might1282MDmight be1283VBbe a1284DTa good1285JJgood ground1286NNground for1287INfor going1288VVGgo into1289INinto it1290PPit .1291SENT. And1292CCand so1293RBso whether1294INwhether there1295EXthere 's1296VBZbe a1297DTa good1298JJgood ground1299NNground for1300INfor going1301VVGgo into1302INinto it1303PPit or1304CCor not1305RBnot depends1306VVZdepend on1307INon the1308DTthe case1309NNcase .1310SENT. And1311CCand why1312WRBwhy ...1313:... why1314WRBwhy would1315MDwould it1316PPit be1317VBbe any1318DTany different1319JJdifferent here1320RBhere ,1321,, where1322WRBwhere ,1323,, in1324INin fact1325NNfact ,1326,, it1327PPit 's1328VBZbe not1329RBnot even1330RBeven a1331DTa court1332NNcourt ,1333,, and1334CCand you1335PPyou have1336VHPhave a1337DTa law1338NNlaw which1339WDTwhich says1340VVZsay you1341PPyou do1342VVPdo n't1343RBn't even1344RBeven have1345VHhave to1346TOto use1347VVuse court1348NNcourt rules1349NNSrule of1350INof evidence1351NNevidence .1352SENT. I1353PPI ...1354:... I1355PPI ...1356:... you1357PPyou see1358VVPsee my1359PP$my point1360NNpoint ?1361SENT? Maybe1362RBmaybe you1363PPyou 're1364VBPbe right1365JJright .1366SENT. But1367CCbut do1368VVPdo I1369PPI repeat1370VVrepeat it1371PPit ?1372SENT? [MR. BHABHA]1373LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your1374PP$your ...1375:... I1376PPI understand1377VVPunderstand your1378PP$your point1379NNpoint ,1380,, Your1381PP$your Honor1382NPHonor ...1383:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1384LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay1385NPOkay .1386SENT. [MR. BHABHA]1387LOC[MR. BHABHA] ...1388:... but1389CCbut ,1390,, with1391INwith respect1392NNrespect ,1393,, I1394PPI ...1395:... I1396PPI disagree1397VVPdisagree with1398INwith it1399PPit ,1400,, and1401CCand for1402INfor two1403CDtwo reasons1404NNSreason .1405SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1406LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well1407UHwell ,1408,, I1409PPI 'm1410VBPbe not1411RBnot ...1412:... I1413PPI 'm1414VBPbe asking1415VVGask a1416DTa question1417NNquestion .1418SENT. I1419PPI 'm1420VBPbe saying1421VVGsay why1422WRBwhy is1423VBZbe it1424PPit different1425JJdifferent from1426INfrom even1427RBeven a1428DTa trial1429NNtrial where1430WRBwhere the1431DTthe standard1432NNstandard is1433VBZbe less1434JJRless ,1435,, and1436CCand in1437INin a1438DTa trial1439NNtrial ,1440,, my1441PP$my understanding1442NNunderstanding is1443VBZbe ...1444:... is1445VBZbe that1446IN/thatthat what1447WPwhat you1448PPyou disagree1449VVPdisagree with1450INwith ?1451SENT? Or1452CCor ,1453,, here1454RBhere ,1455,, certainly1456RBcertainly ,1457,, it1458PPit would1459MDwould depend1460VVdepend on1461INon the1462DTthe case1463NNcase .1464SENT. [MR. BHABHA]1465LOC[MR. BHABHA] So1466RBso ,1467,, Your1468PP$your Honor1469NPHonor ,1470,, I1471PPI have1472VHPhave a1473DTa practical1474JJpractical answer1475NNanswer to1476TOto your1477PP$your question1478NNquestion and1479CCand a1480DTa legal1481JJlegal answer1482NNanswer ,1483,, and1484CCand I1485PPI 'd1486MDwould like1487VVlike to1488TOto give1489VVgive both1490DTboth if1491INif I1492PPI might1493MDmight .1494SENT. As1495INas a1496DTa practical1497JJpractical matter1498NNmatter ,1499,, vocational1500JJvocational expert1501NNexpert testimony1502NNtestimony has1503VHZhave been1504VBNbe widely1505RBwidely criticized1506VVNcriticize in1507INin the1508DTthe courts1509NNScourt of1510INof appeals1511NNSappeal ,1512,, with1513INwith courts1514NNScourt noting1515VVGnote that1516IN/thatthat the1517DTthe methodology1518NNmethodology is1519VBZbe at1520INat times1521NNStime preposterous1522JJpreposterous ,1523,, leading1524VVGlead to1525TOto numbers1526NNSnumber that1527WDTthat are1528VBPbe likely1529JJlikely fabrications1530NNSfabrication .1531SENT. And1532CCand as1533INas the1534DTthe NOSSCR1535NPNOSSCR amicus1536NNamicus brief1537NNbrief demonstrates1538VVZdemonstrate ,1539,, for1540INfor the1541DTthe exact1542JJexact same1543JJsame jobs1544NNSjob that1545IN/thatthat our1546PP$our vocational1547JJvocational expert1548NNexpert in1549INin this1550DTthis case1551NNcase opined1552VVDopine there1553EXthere were1554VBDbe 120,0001555CD@card@ jobs1556NNSjob ...1557:... that1558WDTthat was1559VBDbe for1560INfor the1561DTthe nut1562NNnut sorter1563NNsorter or1564CCor the1565DTthe sorter1566NNsorter category1567NNcategory of1568INof jobs1569NNSjob ...1570:... experts1571NNSexpert for1572INfor that1573DTthat exact1574JJexact same1575JJsame job1576NNjob in1577INin almost1578RBalmost identical1579JJidentical time1580NNtime periods1581NNSperiod have1582VHPhave given1583VVNgive numbers1584NNSnumber from1585INfrom the1586DTthe hundreds1587NNShundred up1588RPup to1589TOto 480,0001590CD@card@ .1591SENT. And1592CCand the1593DTthe reason1594NNreason for1595INfor this1596DTthis huge1597JJhuge range1598NNrange in1599INin the1600DTthe answers1601NNSanswer experts1602NNSexpert give1603VVPgive is1604VBZbe it1605PPit 's1606VBZbe not1607RBnot simply1608RBsimply like1609INlike an1610DTan expert1611NNexpert in1612INin these1613DTthese cases1614NNScase is1615VBZbe Googling1616VVGGoogling the1617DTthe number1618NNnumber of1619INof appellate1620JJappellate lawyers1621NNSlawyer in1622INin Washington1623NPWashington ,1624,, D1625NPD .1626SENT. C1627LSc .1628SENT. They1629PPthey have1630VHPhave to1631TOto go1632VVgo first1633JJfirst to1634TOto the1635DTthe Dictionary1636NPDictionary of1637INof Occupational1638NPOccupational Titles1639NNStitle ,1640,, a1641DTa book1642NNbook that1643WDTthat was1644VBDbe written1645VVNwrite in1646INin and1647CCand was1648VBDbe last1649RBlast updated1650VVNupdate in1651INin 19911652CD@card@ ,1653,, and1654CCand involves1655VVZinvolve all1656DTall sort1657NNsort ...1658:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1659LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] But1660CCbut what1661WPwhat you1662PPyou 're1663VBPbe telling1664VVGtell me1665PPme is1666VBZbe that1667IN/thatthat the1668DTthe expert1669NNexpert should1670MDshould ...1671:... they1672PPthey ...1673:... they1674PPthey should1675MDshould have1676VHhave gone1677VVNgo into1678INinto it1679PPit in1680INin this1681DTthis case1682NNcase because1683INbecause it1684PPit was1685VBDbe really1686RBreally rotten1687JJrotten .1688SENT. You1689PPyou have1690VHPhave a1691DTa pretty1692RBpretty good1693JJgood bar1694NNbar ,1695,, and1696CCand you1697PPyou would1698MDwould think1699VVthink that1700IN/thatthat the1701DTthe bar1702NNbar there1703RBthere would1704MDwould find1705VVfind a1706DTa case1707NNcase ...1708:... maybe1709RBmaybe it1710PPit 's1711VBZbe yours1712PP$yours ...1713:... and1714CCand go1715VVgo to1716TOto the1717DTthe court1718NNcourt of1719INof appeals1720NNSappeal and1721CCand say1722VVPsay :1723:: Look1724VVlook ,1725,, you1726PPyou should1727MDshould have1728VHhave looked1729VVNlook into1730INinto this1731DTthis one1732CDone .1733SENT. And1734CCand then1735RBthen ,1736,, when1737WRBwhen they1738PPthey look1739VVPlook into1740INinto that1741DTthat one1742CDone ,1743,, if1744INif they1745PPthey disagree1746VVPdisagree with1747INwith you1748PPyou ,1749,, you1750PPyou would1751MDwould have1752VHhave said1753VVNsay just1754RBjust what1755WPwhat you1756PPyou 're1757VBPbe saying1758VVGsay now1759RBnow .1760SENT. What1761WPWhat I1762PPI do1763VVPdo n't1764RBn't understand1765VVunderstand ,1766,, you1767PPyou see1768VVPsee ...1769:... and1770CCand you1771PPyou might1772MDmight have1773VHhave won1774VVNwin .1775SENT. And1776CCand maybe1777RBmaybe you1778PPyou should1779MDshould win1780VVwin .1781SENT. What1782WPWhat I1783PPI do1784VVPdo n't1785RBn't understand1786VVunderstand is1787VBZbe having1788VHGhave an1789DTan absolute1790JJabsolute rule1791NNrule that1792IN/thatthat every1793DTevery expert1794NNexpert who1795WPwho 's1796VBZbe vocational1797JJvocational ,1798,, regardless1799RBregardless of1800INof what1801WPwhat he1802PPhe relied1803VVDrely on1804INon or1805CCor how1806WRBhow much1807JJmuch trouble1808NNtrouble it1809PPit would1810MDwould be1811VBbe ,1812,, would1813MDwould have1814VHhave to1815TOto ,1816,, without1817INwithout cross-examination1818NNcross-examination or1819CCor a1820DTa strong1821JJstrong basis1822NNbasis in1823INin the1824DTthe law1825NNlaw ,1826,, or1827CCor in1828INin the1829DTthe ...1830:... in1831INin the1832DTthe facts1833NNSfact of1834INof the1835DTthe case1836NNcase ,1837,, why1838WRBwhy he1839PPhe 'd1840MDwould have1841VHhave to1842TOto produce1843VVproduce all1844PDTall this1845DTthis stuff1846NNstuff .1847SENT. Maybe1848RBmaybe it1849PPit is1850VBZbe confidential1851JJconfidential .1852SENT. Maybe1853RBmaybe sometimes1854RBsometimes he1855PPhe should1856MDshould .1857SENT. Maybe1858RBmaybe sometimes1859RBsometimes he1860PPhe should1861MDshould n't1862RBn't .1863SENT. You1864PPyou see1865VVPsee ,1866,, that1867WDTthat 's1868VBZbe my1869PP$my problem1870NNproblem .1871SENT. [MR. BHABHA]1872LOC[MR. BHABHA] I1873PPI understand1874VVPunderstand your1875PP$your problem1876NNproblem ,1877,, Justice1878NPJustice Breyer1879NPBreyer ,1880,, and1881CCand let1882VVlet me1883PPme see1884VVsee if1885INif I1886PPI can1887MDcan address1888VVaddress it1889PPit .1890SENT. The1891DTthe government1892NNgovernment itself1893PPitself ,1894,, I1895PPI would1896MDwould note1897VVnote ,1898,, as1899INas a1900DTa policy1901NNpolicy matter1902NNmatter tells1903VVZtell experts1904NNSexpert you1905PPyou should1906MDshould be1907VBbe prepared1908VVNprepare to1909TOto explain1910VVexplain ,1911,, cite1912VVcite ,1913,, and1914CCand furnish1915VVfurnish the1916DTthe sources1917NNSsource upon1918INupon which1919WDTwhich you1920PPyou rely1921VVPrely .1922SENT. In1923INin the1924DTthe handbook1925NNhandbook that1926IN/thatthat the1927DTthe Social1928NPSocial Security1929NPSecurity Administration1930NPAdministration gives1931VVZgive to1932TOto experts1933NNSexpert ,1934,, it1935PPit says1936VVZsay that1937IN/thatthat five1938CDfive times1939NNStime .1940SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1941LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That1942DTthat was1943VBDbe after1944INafter ...1945:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1946LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well1947UHWell ,1948,, there1949RBthere ...1950:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1951LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1952:... that1953DTthat ...1954:... that1955DTthat ...1956:... that1957WDTthat was1958VBDbe after1959INafter this1960DTthis case1961NNcase .1962SENT. [MR. BHABHA]1963LOC[MR. BHABHA] That1964DTthat 's1965VBZbe correct1966JJcorrect ,1967,, Your1968PP$your Honor1969NPHonor .1970SENT. That1971DTthat was1972VBDbe ...1973:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1974LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All1975DTall right1976NNright .1977SENT. So1978RBso that1979DTthat was1980VBDbe n't1981RBn't in1982INin place1983NNplace at1984INat the1985DTthe time1986NNtime .1987SENT. Can1988MDcan I1989PPI go1990VVgo back1991RBback to1992TOto Justice1993NPJustice Breyer1994NPBreyer 's1995POS's initial1996JJinitial question1997NNquestion ,1998,, and1999CCand perhaps2000RBperhaps Justice2001NPJustice Alito's2002NPAlito's .2003SENT. You2004PPyou say2005VVPsay very2006RBvery explicitly2007RBexplicitly in2008INin your2009PP$your reply2010NNreply brief2011NNbrief you2012PPyou 're2013VBPbe not2014RBnot asking2015VVGask for2016INfor an2017DTan absolute2018JJabsolute rule2019NNrule that2020IN/thatthat an2021DTan ...2022:... that2023IN/thatthat an2024DTan expert2025NNexpert must2026MDmust ,2027,, before2028INbefore testifying2029VVGtestify ,2030,, produce2031VVproduce these2032DTthese materials2033NNSmaterial .2034SENT. You2035PPyou make2036VVPmake an2037DTan exception2038NNexception for2039INfor when2040WRBwhen it2041PPit 's2042VBZbe asked2043VVNask for2044INfor .2045SENT. But2046CCbut you2047PPyou also2048RBalso concede2049VVPconcede in2050INin your2051PP$your reply2052NNreply brief2053NNbrief that2054IN/thatthat there2055EXthere might2056MDmight be2057VBbe situations2058NNSsituation where2059WRBwhere it2060PPit 's2061VBZbe not2062RBnot necessary2063JJnecessary ,2064,, where2065WRBwhere the2066DTthe expert2067NNexpert opines2068VVZopine ,2069,, does2070VVZdo n't2071RBn't produce2072VVproduce their2073PP$their materials2074NNSmaterial ,2075,, but2076CCbut there2077EXthere 's2078VBZbe other2079JJother independent2080JJindependent evidence2081NNevidence that2082WDTthat 's2083VBZbe reliable2084JJreliable and2085CCand could2086MDcould be2087VBbe relied2088VVNrely upon2089RPupon to2090TOto constitute2091VVconstitute substantial2092JJsubstantial evidence2093NNevidence .2094SENT. And2095CCand so2096RBso there2097EXthere 's2098VBZbe no2099DTno absolute2100JJabsolute rule2101NNrule according2102VVGaccord to2103TOto you2104PPyou .2105SENT. But2106CCbut what2107WPwhat you2108PPyou 're2109VBPbe asking2110VVGask us2111PPus now2112RBnow to2113TOto hold2114VVhold ,2115,, I2116PPI think2117VVPthink ,2118,, is2119VBZbe that2120IN/thatthat ,2121,, as2122INas a2123DTa matter2124NNmatter of2125INof law2126NNlaw ,2127,, an2128DTan expert2129NNexpert who2130WPwho opines2131VVZopine on2132INon something2133NNsomething and2134CCand refuses2135VVZrefuse to2136TOto provide2137VVprovide the2138DTthe sources2139NNSsource is2140VBZbe sufficiently2141RBsufficiently unreliable2142JJunreliable that2143IN/thatthat it2144PPit does2145VVZdo n't2146RBn't constitute2147VVconstitute substantial2148JJsubstantial evidence2149NNevidence .2150SENT. Is2151VBZbe that2152IN/thatthat what2153WPwhat you2154PPyou 're2155VBPbe trying2156VVGtry ...2157:... [MR. BHABHA]2158LOC[MR. BHABHA] Not2159RBnot ...2160:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2161LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...2162:... to2163TOto get2164VVget us2165PPus to2166TOto ...2167:... [MR. BHABHA]2168LOC[MR. BHABHA] ...2169:... not2170RBnot exactly2171RBexactly ,2172,, Justice2173NPJustice Sotomayor2174NPSotomayor ,2175,, if2176INif I2177PPI can2178MDcan be2179VBbe very2180RBvery clear2181JJclear on2182INon the2183DTthe rule2184NNrule that2185IN/thatthat the2186DTthe Seventh2187NPSeventh Circuit2188NPCircuit has2189VHZhave held2190VVNhold and2191CCand that2192IN/thatthat we2193PPwe are2194VBPbe arguing2195VVGargue for2196INfor in2197INin this2198DTthis Court2199NPCourt .2200SENT. In2201INin this2202DTthis context2203NNcontext ,2204,, when2205WRBwhen an2206DTan expert2207NNexpert is2208VBZbe providing2209VVGprovide statistical2210JJstatistical data2211NNSdatum and2212CCand then2213RBthen cites2214VVZcite to2215TOto statistical2216JJstatistical sources2217NNSsource they2218PPthey rely2219VVPrely upon2220RPupon ,2221,, and2222CCand say2223VVPsay these2224DTthese are2225VBPbe the2226DTthe sources2227NNSsource ,2228,, and2229CCand these2230DTthese are2231VBPbe not2232RBnot public2233JJpublic sources2234NNSsource ,2235,, this2236DTthis expert2237NNexpert relied2238VVNrely on2239INon two2240CDtwo sources2241NNSsource ,2242,, one2243CDone of2244INof which2245WDTwhich was2246VBDbe private2247JJprivate .2248SENT. We2249PPwe had2250VHDhave never2251RBnever seen2252VVNsee it2253PPit .2254SENT. The2255DTthe ALJ2256NPALJ never2257RBnever saw2258VVDsee it2259PPit .2260SENT. In2261INin that2262DTthat situation2263NNsituation ,2264,, the2265DTthe Seventh2266NPSeventh Circuit2267NPCircuit has2268VHZhave held2269VVNhold that2270IN/thatthat if2271INif you2272PPyou ask2273VVPask the2274DTthe expert2275NNexpert ,2276,, just2277RBjust show2278VVPshow me2279PPme the2280DTthe sources2281NNSsource that2282IN/thatthat you2283PPyou yourself2284PPyourself are2285VBPbe relying2286VVGrely upon2287RPupon so2288RBso that2289IN/thatthat the2290DTthe agency2291NNagency can2292MDcan make2293VVmake a2294DTa determination2295NNdetermination and2296CCand so2297RBso that2298IN/thatthat we2299PPwe can2300MDcan conduct2301VVconduct a2302DTa meaningful2303JJmeaningful cross-examination2304NNcross-examination ,2305,, in2306INin that2307DTthat situation2308NNsituation ,2309,, the2310DTthe say-so2311NNsay-so is2312VBZbe not2313RBnot enough2314JJenough .2315SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2316LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All2317DTall right2318NNright .2319SENT. You2320PPyou 're2321VBPbe defining2322VVGdefine meaningful2323JJmeaningful .2324SENT. But2325CCbut let2326VVPlet 's2327VBZbe ...2328:... let2329VVlet me2330PPme pose2331VVpose a2332DTa hypothetical2333JJhypothetical .2334SENT. Expert2335NNexpert says2336VVZsay what2337WPwhat this2338DTthis expert2339NNexpert says2340VVZsay ,2341,, and2342CCand you2343PPyou get2344VVPget up2345RPup and2346CCand say2347VVsay :2348:: How2349WRBHow many2350JJmany of2351INof these2352DTthese people2353NNSpeople had2354VHDhave the2355DTthe same2356JJsame conditions2357NNScondition as2358INas my2359PP$my client2360NNclient has2361VHZhave ?2362SENT? And2363CCand the2364DTthe expert2365NNexpert says2366VVZsay :2367:: Virtually2368RBvirtually every2369DTevery one2370CDone of2371INof them2372PPthem .2373SENT. How2374WRBHow many2375JJmany people2376NNSpeople did2377VVDdo you2378PPyou do2379VVPdo research2380NNresearch on2381INon with2382INwith respect2383NNrespect to2384TOto this2385DTthis issue2386NNissue ?2387SENT? I2388PPI contacted2389VVDcontact about2390RBabout 152391CD@card@ businesses2392NNSbusiness .2393SENT. Have2394VHPhave you2395PPyou placed2396VVDplace these2397DTthese kinds2398NNSkind of2399INof individuals2400NNSindividual in2401INin the2402DTthe kinds2403NNSkind of2404INof jobs2405NNSjob you2406PPyou 've2407VHPhave talked2408VVNtalk about2409RBabout ?2410SENT? Yes2411UHyes ,2412,, a2413DTa hundred2414CDhundred of2415INof them2416PPthem .2417SENT. Whatever2418WDTwhatever ...2419:... do2420VVPdo you2421PPyou believe2422VVPbelieve that2423IN/thatthat ,2424,, in2425INin that2426DTthat circumstance2427NNcircumstance ,2428,, you2429PPyou could2430MDcould stand2431VVstand here2432RBhere and2433CCand say2434VVPsay that2435IN/thatthat there2436EXthere was2437VBDbe n't2438RBn't substantial2439JJsubstantial evidence2440NNevidence from2441INfrom which2442WDTwhich the2443DTthe ALJ2444NPALJ could2445MDcould rely2446VVrely upon2447RPupon ,2448,, even2449RBeven if2450INif you2451PPyou had2452VHDhave not2453RBnot seen2454VVNsee the2455DTthe underlying2456VVGunderlie records2457NNSrecord ?2458SENT? [MR. BHABHA]2459LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your2460PP$your Honor2461NPHonor ,2462,, I2463PPI think2464VVPthink ...2465:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2466LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I2467PPI 'm2468VBPbe giving2469VVGgive you2470PPyou the2471DTthe best2472JJSgood case2473NNcase for2474INfor them2475PPthem ,2476,, because2477INbecause the2478DTthe better2479JJRgood case2480NNcase for2481INfor you2482PPyou is2483VBZbe for2484INfor her2485PPher to2486TOto say2487VVsay :2488:: Well2489UHWell ,2490,, I2491PPI 've2492VHPhave never2493RBnever really2494RBreally placed2495VVNplace anyone2496NNanyone with2497INwith that2498DTthat ...2499:... with2500INwith those2501DTthose conditions2502NNScondition .2503SENT. I2504PPI only2505RBonly checked2506VVDcheck one2507CDone employer2508NNemployer .2509SENT. But2510CCbut I2511PPI 'm2512VBPbe extrapolating2513VVGextrapolate from2514INfrom that2515IN/thatthat some2516DTsome sort2517NNsort of2518INof methodology2519NNmethodology that2520WDTthat really2521RBreally could2522MDcould be2523VBbe questionable2524JJquestionable .2525SENT. Those2526DTthose are2527VBPbe the2528DTthe two2529CDtwo extremes2530NNSextreme we2531PPwe have2532VHPhave ,2533,, is2534VBZbe n't2535RBn't it2536PPit ?2537SENT? [MR. BHABHA]2538LOC[MR. BHABHA] That2539DTthat 's2540VBZbe right2541JJright ,2542,, Your2543PP$your Honor2544NPHonor .2545SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2546LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All2547DTall right2548NNright ,2549,, the2550DTthe potential2551JJpotential extremes2552NNSextreme we2553PPwe have2554VHPhave .2555SENT. But2556CCbut no2557DTno one2558CDone asked2559VVDask any2560DTany of2561INof those2562DTthose questions2563NNSquestion below2564INbelow for2565INfor us2566PPus to2567TOto make2568VVmake a2569DTa judgment2570NNjudgment about2571RBabout whether2572INwhether the2573DTthe ALJ2574NPALJ 's2575POS's ruling2576NNruling was2577VBDbe reasonable2578JJreasonable or2579CCor not2580RBnot .2581SENT. [MR. BHABHA]2582LOC[MR. BHABHA] So2583RBso ,2584,, Your2585PP$your Honor2586NPHonor ,2587,, if2588INif I2589PPI can2590MDcan answer2591VVanswer your2592PP$your question2593NNquestion in2594INin two2595CDtwo ways2596NNSway .2597SENT. First2598RBfirst ,2599,, I2600PPI think2601VVPthink ours2602PPours is2603VBZbe the2604DTthe easier2605JJReasy case2606NNcase because2607INbecause ,2608,, here2609RBhere ,2610,, the2611DTthe expert2612NNexpert did2613VVDdo n't2614RBn't say2615VVsay it2616PPit was2617VBDbe my2618PP$my experience2619NNexperience .2620SENT. She2621PPshe said2622VVDsay labor2623NNlabor market2624NNmarket surveys2625NNSsurvey .2626SENT. And2627CCand so2628RBso the2629DTthe expert2630NNexpert explicitly2631RBexplicitly did2632VVDdo n't2633RBn't say2634VVsay ,2635,, I2636PPI have2637VHPhave placed2638VVNplace a2639DTa number2640NNnumber of2641INof people2642NNSpeople .2643SENT. But2644CCbut taking2645VVGtake Your2646PP$your Honor2647NPHonor 's2648POS's hypothetical2649JJhypothetical head2650NNhead on2651INon ,2652,, in2653INin a2654DTa situation2655NNsituation in2656INin which2657WDTwhich a2658DTa vocational2659JJvocational expert2660NNexpert says2661VVZsay I2662PPI 've2663VHPhave placed2664VVNplace a2665DTa number2666NNnumber of2667INof people2668NNSpeople over2669INover my2670PP$my 10-year2671JJ10-year career2672NNcareer in2673INin this2674DTthis position2675NNposition or2676CCor in2677INin these2678DTthese sets2679NNSset of2680INof positions2681NNSposition ,2682,, I2683PPI think2684VVPthink it2685PPit is2686VBZbe likely2687JJlikely that2688WDTthat would2689MDwould not2690RBnot be2691VBbe substantial2692JJsubstantial evidence2693NNevidence ,2694,, and2695CCand here2696RBhere 's2697VBZbe why2698WRBwhy ,2699,, Your2700PP$your Honor2701NPHonor .2702SENT. Section2703NNsection 4232704CD@card@ (2705(( d2706LSd )2707)) (2708(( 22709LS2 )2710)) (2711(( A2712NPA )2713)) ,2714,, the2715DTthe statutory2716JJstatutory provision2717NNprovision here2718RBhere ,2719,, requires2720VVZrequire that2721IN/thatthat there2722EXthere be2723VBbe a2724DTa significant2725JJsignificant number2726NNnumber of2727INof jobs2728NNSjob in2729INin the2730DTthe national2731JJnational economy2732NNeconomy .2733SENT. Now2734RBnow that2735DTthat number2736NNnumber has2737VHZhave ...2738:... what2739WPwhat "2740``" significant2741JJsignificant "2742''" means2743NNmeans is2744VBZbe a2745DTa subject2746NNsubject of2747INof some2748DTsome debates2749NNSdebate in2750INin the2751DTthe courts2752NNScourt of2753INof appeals2754NNSappeal and2755CCand it2756PPit appears2757VVZappear to2758TOto be2759VBbe a2760DTa multi-factor2761NNmulti-factor test2762NNtest .2763SENT. But2764CCbut what2765WPwhat is2766VBZbe critical2767JJcritical is2768VBZbe that2769WDTthat 's2770VBZbe at2771INat least2772JJSleast in2773INin the2774DTthe hundreds2775NNShundred ,2776,, and2777CCand likely2778RBlikely in2779INin the2780DTthe thousands2781NNSthousand .2782SENT. And2783CCand these2784DTthese types2785NNStype of2786INof jobs2787NNSjob that2788WDTthat are2789VBPbe getting2790VVGget placed2791VVNplace are2792VBPbe very2793RBvery specific2794JJspecific jobs2795NNSjob with2796INwith people2797NNSpeople with2798INwith very2799RBvery specific2800JJspecific limitations2801NNSlimitation .2802SENT. So2803RBso even2804RBeven if2805INif an2806DTan expert2807NNexpert said2808VVDsay I2809PPI 've2810VHPhave placed2811VVNplace 152812CD@card@ people2813NNSpeople over2814INover the2815DTthe last2816JJlast 102817CD@card@ years2818NNSyear in2819INin these2820DTthese jobs2821NNSjob with2822INwith similar2823JJsimilar limitations2824NNSlimitation to2825TOto your2826PP$your client2827NNclient ,2828,, that2829WDTthat does2830VVZdo n't2831RBn't provide2832VVprovide a2833DTa basis2834NNbasis to2835TOto know2836VVknow that2837IN/thatthat there2838EXthere are2839VBPbe hundreds2840NNShundred or2841CCor thousands2842NNSthousand of2843INof those2844DTthose jobs2845NNSjob .2846SENT. And2847CCand I2848PPI think2849VVPthink it2850PPit 's2851VBZbe for2852INfor that2853DTthat reason2854NNreason that2855IN/thatthat vocational2856JJvocational experts2857NNSexpert rely2858VVPrely on2859INon surveys2860NNSsurvey and2861CCand not2862RBnot only2863RBonly their2864PP$their own2865JJown personal2866JJpersonal experience2867NNexperience in2868INin propounding2869VVGpropound their2870PP$their testimony2871NNtestimony .2872SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2873LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But2874CCbut I2875PPI think2876VVPthink you2877PPyou 're2878VBPbe missing2879VVGmiss the2880DTthe point2881NNpoint ,2882,, which2883WDTwhich is2884VBZbe you2885PPyou would2886MDwould n't2887RBn't have2888VHhave needed2889VVNneed the2890DTthe surveys2891NNSsurvey to2892TOto make2893VVmake the2894DTthe argument2895NNargument you2896PPyou just2897RBjust made2898VVDmake .2899SENT. You2900PPyou could2901MDcould have2902VHhave questioned2903VVNquestion the2904DTthe expert2905NNexpert and2906CCand shown2907VVNshow the2908DTthe lack2909NNlack of2910INof a2911DTa sufficient2912JJsufficient basis2913NNbasis for2914INfor their2915PP$their conclusion2916NNconclusion and2917CCand then2918RBthen made2919VVDmake that2920DTthat argument2921NNargument to2922TOto the2923DTthe ALJ2924NPALJ .2925SENT. What2926WPWhat I2927PPI 'm2928VBPbe trying2929VVGtry to2930TOto get2931VVget at2932INat is2933VBZbe I2934PPI understand2935VVPunderstand the2936DTthe need2937NNneed in2938INin some2939DTsome situations2940NNSsituation to2941TOto actually2942RBactually see2943VVsee the2944DTthe surveys2945NNSsurvey ,2946,, but2947CCbut do2948VVPdo n't2949RBn't you2950PPyou have2951VHPhave to2952TOto lay2953VVlay at2954INat least2955JJSleast some2956DTsome predicate2957JJpredicate ground2958NNground for2959INfor why2960WRBwhy that2961DTthat 's2962VBZbe necessary2963JJnecessary in2964INin your2965PP$your particular2966JJparticular case2967NNcase ?2968SENT? [MR. BHABHA]2969LOC[MR. BHABHA] I2970PPI understand2971VVPunderstand your2972PP$your question2973NNquestion ,2974,, Your2975PP$your Honor2976NPHonor .2977SENT. I2978PPI think2979VVPthink initially2980RBinitially I2981PPI will2982MDwill just2983RBjust say2984VVsay as2985INas a2986DTa factual2987JJfactual matter2988NNmatter ,2989,, and2990CCand I2991PPI think2992VVPthink the2993DTthe record2994NNrecord bears2995VVZbear this2996DTthis out2997RPout ,2998,, as2999RBas soon3000RBsoon as3001INas my3002PP$my client3003NNclient 's3004POS's or3005CCor claimant3006NNclaimant 's3007POS's representative3008NNrepresentative asked3009VVDask for3010INfor the3011DTthe surveys3012NNSsurvey ,3013,, the3014DTthe ALJ3015NPALJ made3016VVDmake clear3017JJclear she3018PPshe was3019VBDbe n't3020RBn't going3021VVGgo to3022TOto give3023VVgive them3024PPthem .3025SENT. So3026RBso I3027PPI do3028VVPdo n't3029RBn't think3030VVthink there3031EXthere was3032VBDbe any3033DTany opportunity3034NNopportunity even3035RBeven to3036TOto proffer3037VVproffer reasons3038NNSreason .3039SENT. But3040CCbut even3041RBeven beyond3042INbeyond that3043DTthat ,3044,, Your3045PP$your Honor3046NPHonor ,3047,, it3048PPit is3049VBZbe the3050DTthe government3051NNgovernment 's3052POS's burden3053NNburden at3054INat this3055DTthis stage3056NNstage .3057SENT. And3058CCand given3059VVNgive the3060DTthe nature3061NNnature of3062INof this3063DTthis type3064NNtype of3065INof statistical3066JJstatistical testimony3067NNtestimony ,3068,, even3069RBeven at3070INat cross-examination3071NNcross-examination ,3072,, when3073WRBwhen ,3074,, as3075RBas in3076INin our3077PP$our case3078NNcase ,3079,, an3080DTan expert3081NNexpert says3082VVZsay I3083PPI relied3084VVDrely on3085INon public3086JJpublic data3087NNSdatum and3088CCand I3089PPI relied3090VVDrely on3091INon private3092JJprivate data3093NNSdatum ,3094,, it3095PPit is3096VBZbe hard3097JJhard for3098INfor me3099PPme to3100TOto conceive3101VVconceive of3102INof what3103WPwhat kind3104NNkind of3105INof a3106DTa meaningful3107JJmeaningful cross3108NNcross you3109PPyou could3110MDcould do3111VVdo of3112INof the3113DTthe private3114JJprivate data3115NNSdatum .3116SENT. The3117DTthe expert3118NNexpert then3119RBthen provides3120VVZprovide her3121PP$her answers3122NNSanswer about3123INabout this3124DTthis is3125VBZbe what3126WPwhat the3127DTthe data3128NNSdatum said3129VVDsay ,3130,, this3131DTthis is3132VBZbe what3133WPwhat I3134PPI did3135VVDdo to3136TOto the3137DTthe data3138NNSdatum ,3139,, but3140CCbut there3141EXthere 's3142VBZbe no3143DTno way3144NNway of3145INof verifying3146VVGverify any3147DTany of3148INof those3149DTthose kind3150NNkind of3151INof answers3152NNSanswer .3153SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3154LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well3155UHWell ,3156,, one3157CDone way3158NNway ...3159:... one3160CDone way3161NNway to3162TOto be3163VBbe ...3164:... to3165TOto look3166VVlook at3167INat the3168DTthe publicly3169RBpublicly available3170JJavailable data3171NNSdatum ,3172,, right3173RBright ,3174,, and3175CCand there3176EXthere was3177VBDbe no3178RBno questioning3179VVGquestion about3180RBabout that3181IN/thatthat ,3182,, was3183VBDbe there3184RBthere ?3185SENT? I3186PPI mean3187VVPmean ,3188,, to3189TOto the3190DTthe extent3191NNextent the3192DTthe Bureau3193NPBureau of3194INof Labor3195NPLabor Statistics3196NPSStatistics information3197NNinformation shows3198NNSshow ,3199,, you3200PPyou say3201VVPsay ,3202,, 8,0003203CD@card@ jobs3204NNSjob in3205INin southwestern3206JJsouthwestern Michigan3207NPMichigan ,3208,, if3209INif that3210WDTthat 's3211VBZbe where3212WRBwhere it3213PPit was3214VBDbe ,3215,, and3216CCand the3217DTthe Bureau3218NPBureau of3219INof Labor3220NPLabor Statistics3221NPSStatistics shows3222VVZshow a3223DTa different3224JJdifferent number3225NNnumber ,3226,, why3227WRBwhy did3228VVDdo you3229PPyou choose3230VVPchoose eight3231CDeight ?3232SENT? In3233INin other3234JJother words3235NNSword ,3236,, there3237RBthere ...3238:... there3239EXthere were3240VBDbe fields3241NNSfield ,3242,, I3243PPI 'm3244VBPbe not3245RBnot saying3246VVGsay there3247EXthere are3248VBPbe ample3249JJample fields3250NNSfield ,3251,, but3252CCbut there3253EXthere are3254VBPbe fields3255NNSfield for3256INfor fertile3257JJfertile cross-examination3258NNcross-examination that3259WDTthat were3260VBDbe n't3261RBn't explored3262VVNexplore ,3263,, I3264PPI think3265VVPthink .3266SENT. [MR. BHABHA]3267LOC[MR. BHABHA] Mr3268NPMr .3269SENT. Chief3270NPChief Justice3271NPJustice ,3272,, I3273PPI think3274VVPthink it3275PPit is3276VBZbe certainly3277RBcertainly a3278DTa different3279JJdifferent case3280NNcase if3281INif an3282DTan expert3283NNexpert only3284RBonly relies3285VVZrely on3286INon public3287JJpublic data3288NNSdatum .3289SENT. Then3290RBthen I3291PPI absolutely3292RBabsolutely agree3293VVPagree you3294PPyou have3295VHPhave exactly3296RBexactly what3297WPwhat the3298DTthe expert3299NNexpert relied3300VVNrely upon3301RPupon .3302SENT. In3303INin a3304DTa case3305NNcase like3306INlike this3307DTthis ,3308,, however3309RBhowever ,3310,, and3311CCand I3312PPI think3313VVPthink in3314INin many3315JJmany cases3316NNScase like3317INlike this3318DTthis ...3319:... and3320CCand this3321DTthis is3322VBZbe why3323WRBwhy vocational3324JJvocational expert3325NNexpert testimony3326NNtestimony has3327VHZhave been3328VBNbe a3329DTa subject3330NNsubject of3331INof criticism3332NNcriticism ...3333:... the3334DTthe public3335JJpublic data3336NNdata alone3337RBalone is3338VBZbe not3339RBnot only3340RBonly not3341RBnot enough3342JJenough ,3343,, but3344CCbut it3345PPit is3346VBZbe often3347RBoften of3348INof an3349DTan entirely3350RBentirely different3351JJdifferent character3352NNcharacter because3353INbecause the3354DTthe taxonomy3355NNtaxonomy in3356INin the3357DTthe public3358JJpublic data3359NNSdatum ,3360,, in3361INin the3362DTthe BLS3363NPBLS data3364NNSdatum ,3365,, uses3366VVZuse a3367DTa far3368RBfar larger3369JJRlarge definition3370NNdefinition of3371INof jobs3372NNSjob than3373INthan what3374WPwhat the3375DTthe DOT3376NPDOT ,3377,, the3378DTthe Dictionary3379NPDictionary of3380INof Occupational3381NPOccupational Titles3382NNStitle ,3383,, codes3384NNScode ,3385,, which3386WDTwhich is3387VBZbe what3388WPwhat the3389DTthe AL3390NPal ...3391:... the3392DTthe A3393NPA ...3394:... the3395DTthe VE3396NNVE is3397VBZbe required3398VVNrequire to3399TOto identify3400VVidentify .3401SENT. So3402RBso what3403WPwhat happens3404VVZhappen is3405VBZbe ,3406,, in3407INin our3408PP$our case3409NNcase ,3410,, for3411INfor example3412NNexample ,3413,, the3414DTthe SOC3415NPSOC ,3416,, the3417DTthe Standard3418NPStandard Occupational3419NPOccupational Classification3420NPClassification codes3421NNScode in3422INin the3423DTthe Census3424NPCensus ,3425,, encompass3426VVPencompass in3427INin some3428DTsome cases3429NNScase hundreds3430NNShundred of3431INof DOT3432NPDOT codes3433NNScode .3434SENT. And3435CCand so3436RBso ,3437,, when3438WRBwhen you3439PPyou look3440VVPlook at3441INat the3442DTthe overall3443JJoverall number3444NNnumber that3445WDTthat comes3446VVZcome from3447INfrom the3448DTthe Census3449NPCensus ,3450,, that3451WDTthat could3452MDcould be3453VBbe in3454INin the3455DTthe thousands3456NNSthousand or3457CCor in3458INin the3459DTthe hundred3460CDhundred thousands3461NNSthousand ,3462,, but3463CCbut the3464DTthe critical3465JJcritical question3466NNquestion ...3467:... and3468CCand this3469DTthis is3470VBZbe what3471WPwhat the3472DTthe vocational3473JJvocational expert3474NNexpert is3475VBZbe required3476VVNrequire to3477TOto do3478VVdo ...3479:... is3480VBZbe to3481TOto say3482VVsay how3483WRBhow many3484JJmany jobs3485NNSjob with3486INwith somebody3487NNsomebody with3488INwith this3489DTthis level3490NNlevel of3491INof education3492NNeducation ,3493,, this3494DTthis skill3495NNskill level3496NNlevel ,3497,, these3498DTthese kind3499NNkind of3500INof disabilities3501NNSdisability ,3502,, how3503WRBhow many3504JJmany jobs3505NNSjob are3506VBPbe available3507JJavailable for3508INfor them3509PPthem .3510SENT. So3511RBso ,3512,, while3513INwhile I3514PPI agree3515VVPagree that3516IN/thatthat BLS3517NPBLS source3518NNsource was3519VBDbe available3520JJavailable ,3521,, it3522PPit was3523VBDbe a3524DTa very3525RBvery partial3526JJpartial source3527NNsource at3528INat best3529JJSgood .3530SENT. And3531CCand I3532PPI think3533VVPthink the3534DTthe critical3535JJcritical question3536NNquestion ...3537:... and3538CCand that3539DTthat 's3540VBZbe why3541WRBwhy the3542DTthe experts3543NNSexpert in3544INin this3545DTthis situation3546NNsituation did3547VVDdo n't3548RBn't only3549RBonly rely3550VVrely on3551INon the3552DTthe BLS3553NPBLS data3554NNSdatum ...3555:... was3556VBDbe because3557INbecause there3558RBthere needed3559VVNneed to3560TOto be3561VBbe a3562DTa significant3563JJsignificant winnowing3564VVGwinnow of3565INof those3566DTthose numbers3567NNSnumber to3568TOto get3569VVget to3570TOto the3571DTthe answers3572NNSanswer to3573TOto the3574DTthe ALJ3575NPALJ 's3576POS's hypo3577NNhypo .3578SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3579LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well3580UHWell ,3581,, that3582WDTthat 's3583VBZbe a3584DTa good3585JJgood ...3586:... it3587PPit strikes3588VVZstrike me3589PPme that3590IN/thatthat that3591DTthat 's3592VBZbe a3593DTa good3594JJgood argument3595NNargument to3596TOto have3597VHhave made3598VVNmake before3599INbefore the3600DTthe ALJ3601NPALJ ,3602,, at3603INat which3604WDTwhich point3605NNpoint the3606DTthe ALJ3607NPALJ may3608MDmay have3609VHhave said3610VVNsay ,3611,, well3612RBwell ,3613,, I3614PPI see3615VVPsee that3616IN/thatthat now3617RBnow ,3618,, and3619CCand you3620PPyou should3621MDshould have3622VHhave access3623NNaccess to3624TOto the3625DTthe private3626JJprivate data3627NNSdatum and3628CCand you3629PPyou can3630MDcan just3631RBjust redact3632VVredact it3633PPit .3634SENT. But3635CCbut that3636DTthat was3637VBDbe n't3638RBn't ...3639:... that3640WDTthat was3641VBDbe n't3642RBn't done3643VVNdo here3644RBhere .3645SENT. [MR. BHABHA]3646LOC[MR. BHABHA] Well3647UHWell ,3648,, Your3649PP$your Honor3650NPHonor ,3651,, the3652DTthe one3653CDone thing3654NNthing that3655WDTthat was3656VBDbe done3657VVNdo ...3658:... I3659PPI agree3660VVPagree ,3661,, that3662WDTthat was3663VBDbe n't3664RBn't laid3665VVNlay out3666RPout to3667TOto the3668DTthe ALJ3669NPALJ .3670SENT. What3671WPWhat was3672VBDbe laid3673VVNlay out3674INout the3675DTthe first3676JJfirst time3677NNtime that3678IN/thatthat we3679PPwe asked3680VVDask for3681INfor the3682DTthe data3683NNSdatum and3684CCand were3685VBDbe refused3686VVNrefuse ,3687,, immediately3688RBimmediately ,3689,, counsel3690NNcounsel said3691VVDsay :3692:: Look3693NNlook ,3694,, it3695PPit 's3696VBZbe a3697DTa substantial3698JJsubstantial evidence3699NNevidence standard3700NNstandard .3701SENT. These3702DTthese vague3703JJvague conclusions3704NNSconclusion are3705VBPbe not3706RBnot enough3707RBenough .3708SENT. So3709RBso I3710PPI think3711VVPthink it3712PPit was3713VBDbe certainly3714RBcertainly put3715VVNput in3716INin issue3717NNissue to3718TOto the3719DTthe ALJ3720NPALJ ,3721,, we3722PPwe need3723VVPneed something3724NNsomething more3725RBRmore .3726SENT. And3727CCand I3728PPI would3729MDwould just3730RBjust note3731VVnote that3732IN/thatthat this3733DTthis is3734VBZbe a3735DTa very3736RBvery specific3737JJspecific type3738NNtype of3739INof testimony3740NNtestimony .3741SENT. This3742DTthis is3743VBZbe testimony3744NNtestimony where3745WRBwhere a3746DTa witness3747NNwitness is3748VBZbe giving3749VVGgive statistical3750JJstatistical answers3751NNSanswer ,3752,, identifying3753VVGidentify statistical3754JJstatistical sources3755NNSsource .3756SENT. And3757CCand I3758PPI think3759VVPthink it3760PPit would3761MDwould be3762VBbe rare3763JJrare in3764INin administrative3765JJadministrative procedure3766NNprocedure in3767INin that3768DTthat situation3769NNsituation for3770INfor an3771DTan agency3772NNagency to3773TOto say3774VVsay :3775:: Yes3776UHyes ,3777,, there3778EXthere are3779VBPbe these3780DTthese data3781NNdata sources3782NNSsource ,3783,, they3784PPthey are3785VBPbe the3786DTthe sole3787JJsole basis3788NNbasis for3789INfor the3790DTthe testimony3791NNtestimony ,3792,, but3793CCbut no3794DTno regulated3795JJregulated party3796NNparty or3797CCor no3798DTno party3799NNparty before3800INbefore the3801DTthe agency3802NNagency ,3803,, you3804PPyou can3805MDcan 't3806RB't see3807VVsee those3808DTthose sources3809NNSsource in3810INin order3811NNorder to3812TOto meaningfully3813RBmeaningfully challenge3814VVchallenge the3815DTthe conclusions3816NNSconclusion of3817INof the3818DTthe expert3819NNexpert .3820SENT. And3821CCand I3822PPI think3823VVPthink ,3824,, Your3825PP$your Honors3826NNShonors ,3827,, Perales3828NPPerales is3829VBZbe an3830DTan interesting3831JJinteresting case3832NNcase in3833INin this3834DTthis respect3835NNrespect .3836SENT. Now3837RBnow we3838PPwe agree3839VVPagree with3840INwith the3841DTthe government3842NNgovernment ,3843,, for3844INfor sure3845RBsure ,3846,, Perales3847NPPerales discusses3848VVZdiscuss procedural3849JJprocedural due3850JJdue process3851NNprocess .3852SENT. But3853CCbut equally3854RBequally crucial3855JJcrucial in3856INin Perales3857NPPerales ,3858,, Perales3859NPPerales came3860VVDcome under3861INunder Section3862NPSection 4053863CD@card@ (3864(( g3865NNg )3866)) of3867INof the3868DTthe Social3869NPSocial Security3870NPSecurity Act3871NPAct ,3872,, the3873DTthe very3874RBvery same3875JJsame provision3876NNprovision we3877PPwe have3878VHPhave at3879INat issue3880NNissue here3881RBhere .3882SENT. And3883CCand the3884DTthe question3885NNquestion presented3886VVNpresent by3887INby the3888DTthe government3889NNgovernment in3890INin Perales3891NPPerales to3892TOto the3893DTthe Court3894NPCourt was3895VBDbe whether3896INwhether or3897CCor not3898RBnot the3899DTthe medical3900JJmedical expert3901NNexpert testimony3902NNtestimony in3903INin that3904DTthat context3905NNcontext could3906MDcould be3907VBbe substantial3908JJsubstantial evidence3909NNevidence .3910SENT. And3911CCand I3912PPI think3913VVPthink what3914WPwhat 's3915VBZbe important3916JJimportant about3917INabout Perales3918NPPerales is3919VBZbe that3920IN/thatthat ,3921,, in3922INin part3923NNpart 53924CD5 of3925INof the3926DTthe opinion3927NNopinion ,3928,, while3929INwhile certainly3930RBcertainly also3931RBalso discussing3932VVGdiscuss procedural3933JJprocedural due3934JJdue process3935NNprocess issues3936NNSissue ,3937,, the3938DTthe Court3939NPCourt in3940INin Perales3941NPPerales gives3942VVZgive indicia3943NNindicia of3944INof why3945WRBwhy the3946DTthe testimony3947NNtestimony there3948RBthere had3949VHDhave probative3950JJprobative value3951NNvalue and3952CCand why3953WRBwhy it3954PPit was3955VBDbe reliable3956JJreliable .3957SENT. And3958CCand I3959PPI think3960VVPthink it3961PPit 's3962VBZbe very3963RBvery important3964JJimportant to3965TOto look3966VVlook at3967INat that3968DTthat case3969NNcase because3970INbecause ,3971,, there3972RBthere ,3973,, the3974DTthe medical3975JJmedical experts3976NNSexpert did3977VVDdo n't3978RBn't just3979RBjust give3980VVgive conclusions3981NNSconclusion .3982SENT. What3983WPWhat the3984DTthe Court3985NPCourt noted3986VVDnote specifically3987RBspecifically in3988INin Perales3989NPPerales was3990VBDbe that3991IN/thatthat they3992PPthey laid3993VVDlay out3994RPout the3995DTthe tests3996NNStest that3997WDTthat were3998VBDbe conducted3999VVNconduct ,4000,, the4001DTthe results4002NNSresult of4003INof those4004DTthose tests4005NNStest ,4006,, the4007DTthe types4008NNStype of4009INof surgeries4010NNSsurgery that4011WDTthat were4012VBDbe conducted4013VVNconduct ,4014,, and4015CCand the4016DTthe results4017NNSresult after4018INafter surgery4019NNsurgery .4020SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]4021LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But4022CCbut your4023PP$your reliance4024NNreliance on4025INon that4026DTthat case4027NNcase raises4028VVZraise the4029DTthe interesting4030JJinteresting question4031NNquestion ,4032,, a4033DTa question4034NNquestion I4035PPI think4036VVPthink is4037VBZbe interesting4038JJinteresting ,4039,, which4040WDTwhich is4041VBZbe whether4042INwhether there4043EXthere would4044MDwould be4045VBbe any4046DTany basis4047NNbasis for4048INfor limiting4049VVGlimit the4050DTthe rule4051NNrule that4052IN/thatthat you4053PPyou 're4054VBPbe asking4055VVGask us4056PPus to4057TOto adopt4058VVadopt to4059TOto the4060DTthe specific4061JJspecific situation4062NNsituation here4063RBhere ,4064,, which4065WDTwhich you4066PPyou have4067VHPhave stressed4068VVNstress where4069WRBwhere it4070PPit 's4071POS's testimony4072NNtestimony ,4073,, it4074PPit 's4075VBZbe statistical4076JJstatistical testimony4077NNtestimony by4078INby a4079DTa vocational4080JJvocational expert4081NNexpert in4082INin a4083DTa Social4084NPSocial Security4085NPSecurity disability4086NNdisability hearing4087NNhearing .4088SENT. Why4089WRBwhy would4090MDwould n't4091RBn't the4092DTthe rule4093NNrule that4094IN/thatthat you4095PPyou 're4096VBPbe asking4097VVGask us4098PPus to4099TOto adopt4100VVadopt apply4101VVapply whenever4102WRBwhenever there4103EXthere is4104VBZbe the4105DTthe question4106NNquestion if4107INif a4108DTa determination4109NNdetermination by4110INby an4111DTan agency4112NNagency is4113VBZbe supported4114VVNsupport by4115INby substantial4116JJsubstantial evidence4117NNevidence ?4118SENT? [MR. BHABHA]4119LOC[MR. BHABHA] Well4120UHWell ,4121,, Your4122PP$your Honor4123NPHonor ,4124,, I4125PPI think4126VVPthink ,4127,, for4128INfor sure4129JJsure ,4130,, the4131DTthe term4132NNterm "4133``" substantial4134JJsubstantial evidence4135NNevidence "4136''" is4137VBZbe one4138CDone that4139WDTthat applies4140VVZapply throughout4141INthroughout administrative4142JJadministrative law4143NNlaw ,4144,, but4145CCbut what4146WPwhat this4147DTthis Court4148NPCourt has4149VHZhave made4150VVNmake clear4151JJclear in4152INin a4153DTa number4154NNnumber of4155INof cases4156NNScase is4157VBZbe that4158IN/thatthat ,4159,, of4160INof course4161NNcourse ,4162,, substantial4163JJsubstantial evidence4164NNevidence looks4165VVZlook at4166INat the4167DTthe record4168NNrecord and4169CCand ,4170,, thus4171RBthus ,4172,, inherent4173JJinherent in4174INin the4175DTthe question4176NNquestion ...4177:... in4178INin the4179DTthe answer4180NNanswer as4181INas to4182TOto what4183WPwhat "4184``" substantial4185JJsubstantial evidence4186NNevidence "4187``" means4188VVZmean is4189VBZbe ,4190,, what4191WPwhat is4192VBZbe the4193DTthe question4194NNquestion that4195IN/thatthat the4196DTthe agency4197NNagency is4198VBZbe trying4199VVGtry to4200TOto address4201VVaddress ?4202SENT? In4203INin a4204DTa situation4205NNsituation like4206INlike this4207DTthis ,4208,, where4209WRBwhere you4210PPyou 're4211VBPbe talking4212VVGtalk about4213INabout specific4214JJspecific numbers4215NNSnumber that4216IN/thatthat the4217DTthe agency4218NNagency is4219VBZbe relying4220VVGrely on4221INon as4222INas the4223DTthe sole4224JJsole basis4225NNbasis to4226TOto deny4227VVdeny my4228PP$my client4229NNclient benefits4230NNSbenefit for4231INfor the4232DTthe applicable4233JJapplicable period4234NNperiod ,4235,, there4236RBthere ,4237,, I4238PPI think4239VVPthink ,4240,, when4241WRBwhen the4242DTthe expert4243NNexpert points4244NNSpoint to4245TOto data4246NNdata sources4247NNSsource that4248IN/thatthat she4249PPshe has4250VHZhave modified4251VVNmodify in4252INin order4253NNorder to4254TOto come4255VVcome up4256RPup with4257INwith these4258DTthese numbers4259NNSnumber ,4260,, there4261RBthere ,4262,, substantial4263JJsubstantial evidence4264NNevidence requires4265VVZrequire more4266RBRmore .4267SENT. But4268CCbut ,4269,, in4270INin other4271JJother situations4272NNSsituation ,4273,, Your4274PP$your Honor4275NPHonor ,4276,, for4277INfor example4278NNexample ,4279,, qualitative4280JJqualitative testimony4281NNtestimony ,4282,, even4283RBeven testimony4284NNtestimony such4285JJsuch as4286INas these4287DTthese are4288VBPbe the4289DTthe kind4290NNkind of4291INof jobs4292NNSjob in4293INin my4294PP$my experience4295NNexperience I4296PPI believe4297VVPbelieve somebody4298NNsomebody with4299INwith these4300DTthese sorts4301NNSsort of4302INof limitations4303NNSlimitation can4304MDcan do4305VVdo ,4306,, i4307NPi .4308SENT. e4309LSe .4310SENT. ,4311,, the4312DTthe first4313JJfirst part4314NNpart of4315INof what4316WPwhat vocational4317JJvocational experts4318NNSexpert testify4319VVPtestify ,4320,, I4321PPI think4322VVPthink that4323WDTthat 's4324VBZbe entirely4325RBentirely different4326JJdifferent .4327SENT. But4328CCbut I4329PPI do4330VVPdo think4331VVthink ,4332,, in4333INin this4334DTthis situation4335NNsituation ,4336,, it4337PPit would4338MDwould be4339VBbe very4340RBvery normal4341JJnormal when4342WRBwhen an4343DTan administrative4344JJadministrative agency4345NNagency comes4346VVZcome up4347RPup with4348INwith specific4349JJspecific numbers4350NNSnumber and4351CCand bases4352NNSbase a4353DTa determination4354NNdetermination on4355INon specific4356JJspecific numerical4357JJnumerical conclusions4358NNSconclusion ,4359,, it4360PPit is4361VBZbe the4362DTthe norm4363NNnorm to4364TOto then4365RBthen make4366VVmake the4367DTthe agency4368NNagency or4369CCor make4370VVmake the4371DTthe expert4372NNexpert show4373VVPshow their4374PP$their work4375NNwork .4376SENT. 224377CD@card@ I4378PPI ...4379:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4380LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Why4381WRBwhy would4382MDwould n't4383RBn't your4384PP$your argument4385NNargument be4386VBbe the4387DTthe same4388JJsame if4389INif there4390EXthere had4391VHDhave been4392VBNbe no4393DTno request4394NNrequest at4395INat all4396DTall ?4397SENT? [MR. BHABHA]4398LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your4399PP$your Honor4400NPHonor ,4401,, certainly4402RBcertainly ,4403,, we4404PPwe would4405MDwould win4406VVwin if4407INif the4408DTthe ...4409:... if4410INif the4411DTthe rule4412NNrule was4413VBDbe that4414IN/thatthat vocational4415JJvocational experts4416NNSexpert have4417VHPhave to4418TOto give4419VVgive over4420RPover their4421PP$their testimony4422NNtestimony regardless4423RBregardless of4424INof a4425DTa request4426NNrequest or4427CCor not4428RBnot ,4429,, we4430PPwe would4431MDwould win4432VVwin .4433SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4434LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I4435PPI ...4436:... I4437PPI 'm4438VBPbe just4439RBjust asking4440VVGask ,4441,, why4442WRBwhy is4443VBZbe that4444DTthat part4445NNpart of4446INof your4447PP$your proposed4448VVNpropose rule4449NNrule ?4450SENT? [MR. BHABHA]4451LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your4452PP$your Honor4453NPHonor ,4454,, no4455DTno court4456NNcourt of4457INof appeals4458NNSappeal has4459VHZhave ever4460RBever held4461VVNhold that4462IN/thatthat there4463EXthere is4464VBZbe a4465DTa requirement4466NNrequirement ,4467,, but4468CCbut I4469PPI think4470VVPthink ...4471:... I4472PPI 'm4473VBPbe sympathetic4474JJsympathetic to4475TOto the4476DTthe rationale4477NNrationale behind4478INbehind that4479DTthat rule4480NNrule ,4481,, but4482CCbut I4483PPI think4484VVPthink ...4485:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4486LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] It4487PPit seems4488VVZseem to4489TOto me4490PPme that4491IN/thatthat your4492PP$your rationale4493NNrationale suggests4494VVZsuggest that4495IN/thatthat the4496DTthe on-demand4497NNon-demand part4498NNpart of4499INof your4500PP$your test4501NNtest is4502VBZbe irrelevant4503JJirrelevant .4504SENT. [MR. BHABHA]4505LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your4506PP$your Honor4507NPHonor ,4508,, I4509PPI do4510VVPdo n't4511RBn't think4512VVthink it4513PPit 's4514VBZbe irrelevant4515JJirrelevant .4516SENT. And4517CCand as4518INas I4519PPI said4520VVDsay ,4521,, I4522PPI do4523VVPdo n't4524RBn't think4525VVthink it4526PPit 's4527VBZbe irrelevant4528JJirrelevant for4529INfor the4530DTthe reason4531NNreason that4532IN/thatthat ,4533,, when4534WRBwhen you4535PPyou question4536VVPquestion a4537DTa witness4538NNwitness and4539CCand the4540DTthe witness4541NNwitness then4542RBthen does4543VVZdo n't4544RBn't give4545VVgive you4546PPyou the4547DTthe testimony4548NNtestimony ...4549:... the4550DTthe very4551JJvery data4552NNdata sources4553NNSsource they4554PPthey rely4555VVPrely upon4556RPupon ,4557,, that4558WDTthat introduces4559VVZintroduce doubt4560NNdoubt .4561SENT. And4562CCand I4563PPI think4564VVPthink that4565DTthat is4566VBZbe where4567WRBwhere the4568DTthe question4569NNquestion and4570CCand the4571DTthe answer4572NNanswer play4573NNplay into4574INinto the4575DTthe test4576NNtest .4577SENT. And4578CCand I4579PPI think4580VVPthink that4581DTthat 's4582VBZbe the4583DTthe rationale4584NNrationale of4585INof the4586DTthe Seventh4587NPSeventh Circuit4588NPCircuit .4589SENT. They4590PPthey have4591VHPhave n't4592RBn't elucidated4593VVNelucidate it4594PPit exactly4595RBexactly in4596INin those4597DTthose terms4598NNSterm ,4599,, but4600CCbut that4601DTthat is4602VBZbe what4603WPwhat I4604PPI take4605VVPtake those4606DTthose decisions4607NNSdecision to4608TOto say4609VVsay ,4610,, which4611WDTwhich is4612VBZbe that4613IN/thatthat ,4614,, when4615WRBwhen the4616DTthe testimony4617NNtestimony is4618VBZbe given4619VVNgive alone4620RBalone ,4621,, if4622INif it4623PPit 's4624VBZbe not4625RBnot challenged4626VVNchallenge ,4627,, then4628RBthen maybe4629RBmaybe it4630PPit 's4631VBZbe enough4632JJenough .4633SENT. But4634CCbut ,4635,, when4636WRBwhen you4637PPyou ask4638VVPask a4639DTa witness4640NNwitness what4641WDTwhat is4642VBZbe your4643PP$your data4644NNSdatum and4645CCand the4646DTthe witness4647NNwitness does4648VVZdo n't4649RBn't give4650VVgive it4651PPit over4652RPover ...4653:... and4654CCand ,4655,, again4656RBagain ,4657,, the4658DTthe government4659NNgovernment is4660VBZbe n't4661RBn't defending4662VVGdefend here4663RBhere the4664DTthe confidentiality4665NNconfidentiality rationale4666NNrationale ...4667:... that4668WDTthat does4669VVZdo create4670VVcreate doubt4671NNdoubt .4672SENT. And4673CCand I4674PPI think4675VVPthink the4676DTthe adverse4677JJadverse inference4678NNinference cases4679NNScase show4680VVPshow that4681IN/thatthat intuition4682NNintuition in4683INin the4684DTthe law4685NNlaw .4686SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4687LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Yeah4688UHYeah ,4689,, I4690PPI guess4691VVPguess I4692PPI just4693RBjust ...4694:... I4695PPI 'm4696VBPbe just4697RBjust not4698RBnot getting4699VVGget it4700PPit because4701INbecause either4702CCeither it4703PPit 's4704VBZbe enough4705JJenough or4706CCor it4707PPit 's4708VBZbe not4709RBnot enough4710JJenough .4711SENT. It4712PPit does4713VVZdo n't4714RBn't have4715VHhave anything4716NNanything to4717TOto do4718VVdo with4719INwith whether4720INwhether some4721DTsome ...4722:... somebody4723NNsomebody ...4724:... somebody4725NNsomebody demands4726VVZdemand the4727DTthe ...4728:... the4729DTthe information4730NNinformation .4731SENT. [MR. BHABHA]4732LOC[MR. BHABHA] Well4733UHWell ,4734,, Your4735PP$your Honor4736NPHonor ,4737,, I4738PPI think4739VVPthink ...4740:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4741LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Unless4742INunless the4743DTthe ...4744:... the4745DTthe demand4746NNdemand part4747NNpart of4748INof the4749DTthe test4750NNtest is4751VBZbe something4752NNsomething about4753RBabout have4754VHPhave you4755PPyou forfeited4756VVDforfeit the4757DTthe right4758NNright to4759TOto complain4760VVcomplain about4761INabout it4762PPit .4763SENT. [MR. BHABHA]4764LOC[MR. BHABHA] Well4765UHWell ,4766,, Your4767PP$your Honor4768NPHonor ,4769,, the4770DTthe Seventh4771NPSeventh Circuit4772NPCircuit and4773CCand the4774DTthe Ninth4775JJninth Circuit4776NNcircuit ,4777,, which4778WDTwhich has4779VHZhave also4780RBalso applied4781VVNapply a4782DTa similar4783JJsimilar standard4784NNstandard ,4785,, have4786VHPhave talked4787VVNtalk about4788INabout this4789DTthis in4790INin terms4791NNSterm of4792INof forfeiture4793NNforfeiture or4794CCor waiver4795NNwaiver .4796SENT. But4797CCbut I4798PPI do4799VVPdo n't4800RBn't think4801VVthink ,4802,, from4803INfrom a4804DTa legal4805JJlegal perspective4806NNperspective ,4807,, the4808DTthe term4809NNterm "4810``" forfeiture4811NNforfeiture "4812''" is4813VBZbe exactly4814RBexactly correct4815JJcorrect here4816RBhere because4817INbecause you4818PPyou cannot4819MDcan waive4820VVwaive the4821DTthe substantial4822JJsubstantial evidence4823NNevidence standard4824NNstandard .4825SENT. That4826DTthat is4827VBZbe a4828DTa reviewing4829VVGreview standard4830NNstandard that4831IN/thatthat the4832DTthe court4833NNcourt must4834MDmust apply4835VVapply in4836INin any4837DTany circumstance4838NNcircumstance .4839SENT. So4840INso the4841DTthe way4842NNway I4843PPI read4844VVPread those4845DTthose cases4846NNScase is4847VBZbe to4848TOto essentially4849RBessentially say4850VVsay ,4851,, if4852INif you4853PPyou question4854VVPquestion somebody4855NNsomebody that4856WDTthat cannot4857MDcan back4858VVback up4859RPup the4860DTthe data4861NNSdatum ...4862:... and4863CCand I4864PPI think4865VVPthink it4866PPit would4867MDwould be4868VBbe analogous4869JJanalogous ,4870,, Your4871PP$your Honor4872NPHonor ,4873,, if4874INif you4875PPyou asked4876VVDask a4877DTa witness4878NNwitness in4879INin exactly4880RBexactly the4881DTthe same4882JJsame case4883NNcase where4884WRBwhere did4885VVDdo you4886PPyou get4887VVget your4888PP$your data4889NNdata sources4890NNSsource from4891INfrom ,4892,, and4893CCand the4894DTthe witness4895NNwitness said4896VVDsay either4897CCeither I4898PPI 'm4899VBPbe not4900RBnot going4901VVGgo to4902TOto tell4903VVtell you4904PPyou or4905CCor they4906PPthey said4907VVDsay ,4908,, well4909RBwell ,4910,, they4911PPthey occurred4912VVDoccur to4913TOto me4914PPme one4915CDone day4916NNday ,4917,, I4918PPI looked4919VVDlook up4920RPup something4921NNsomething ,4922,, but4923CCbut I4924PPI 'm4925VBPbe not4926RBnot going4927VVGgo to4928TOto identify4929VVidentify what4930WPwhat it4931PPit is4932VBZbe on4933INon the4934DTthe Internet4935NNInternet for4936INfor you4937PPyou ,4938,, that4939WDTthat does4940VVZdo create4941VVcreate doubt4942NNdoubt in4943INin a4944DTa record4945NNrecord ,4946,, Your4947PP$your Honor4948NPHonor ,4949,, just4950RBjust as4951RBas ,4952,, here4953RBhere ,4954,, the4955DTthe failure4956NNfailure to4957TOto look4958VVlook at4959INat those4960DTthose numbers4961NNSnumber when4962WRBwhen requested4963VVNrequest ,4964,, even4965RBeven when4966WRBwhen the4967DTthe claimant4968NNclaimant 's4969POS's representative4970NNrepresentative said4971VVDsay I4972PPI do4973VVPdo n't4974RBn't need4975VVneed your4976PP$your clients4977NNSclient '4978POS' names4979NNSname ,4980,, you4981PPyou can4982MDcan redact4983VVredact those4984DTthose clients4985NNSclient '4986POS' names4987NNSname ,4988,, that4989WDTthat creates4990VVZcreate doubt4991NNdoubt in4992INin the4993DTthe record4994NNrecord .4995SENT. And4996CCand that4997DTthat is4998VBZbe why4999WRBwhy ,5000,, particularly5001RBparticularly in5002INin a5003DTa context5004NNcontext such5005JJsuch as5006INas this5007NNthis when5008WRBwhen you5009PPyou have5010VHPhave multiple5011JJmultiple outdated5012JJoutdated data5013NNdata sources5014NNSsource which5015WDTwhich vocational5016JJvocational experts5017NNSexpert have5018VHPhave to5019TOto bring5020VVbring together5021RBtogether ,5022,, when5023WRBwhen vocational5024JJvocational experts5025NNSexpert come5026VVPcome up5027RPup with5028INwith numbers5029NNSnumber that5030WDTthat vary5031VVPvary enormously5032RBenormously for5033INfor the5034DTthe same5035JJsame jobs5036NNSjob ,5037,, and5038CCand all5039PDTall the5040DTthe more5041RBRmore so5042RBso when5043WRBwhen this5044DTthis is5045VBZbe the5046DTthe sole5047JJsole basis5048NNbasis upon5049INupon which5050WDTwhich disability5051NNdisability benefits5052NNSbenefit applicants5053NNSapplicant are5054VBPbe being5055VBGbe denied5056VVNdeny ,5057,, I5058PPI think5059VVPthink more5060JJRmore than5061INthan just5062RBjust the5063DTthe conclusory5064JJconclusory statements5065NNSstatement of5066INof the5067DTthe expert5068NNexpert are5069VBPbe what5070WPwhat is5071VBZbe required5072VVNrequire .5073SENT. And5074CCand again5075RBagain ...5076:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5077LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Can5078MDcan you5079PPyou draw5080VVdraw an5081DTan adverse5082JJadverse inference5083NNinference against5084INagainst the5085DTthe expert5086NNexpert if5087INif the5088DTthe expert5089NNexpert sincerely5090RBsincerely believes5091VVZbelieve ,5092,, perhaps5093RBperhaps mistakenly5094RBmistakenly ,5095,, but5096CCbut sincerely5097RBsincerely believes5098VVZbelieve that5099IN/thatthat what5100WPwhat is5101VBZbe requested5102VVNrequest is5103VBZbe confidential5104JJconfidential ?5105SENT? [MR. BHABHA]5106LOC[MR. BHABHA] Your5107PP$your Honor5108NPHonor ,5109,, I5110PPI think5111VVPthink the5112DTthe adverse5113JJadverse inference5114NNinference case5115NNcase law5116NNlaw ,5117,, again5118RBagain ,5119,, it5120PPit 's5121VBZbe not5122RBnot directly5123RBdirectly controlling5124VVGcontrol here5125RBhere ,5126,, for5127INfor sure5128JJsure ,5129,, but5130CCbut I5131PPI think5132VVPthink you5133PPyou can5134MDcan use5135VVuse the5136DTthe same5137JJsame intuition5138NNintuition from5139INfrom those5140DTthose cases5141NNScase ,5142,, because5143INbecause there5144EXthere 's5145VBZbe a5146DTa very5147RBvery easy5148JJeasy method5149NNmethod ,5150,, which5151WDTwhich ,5152,, again5153RBagain ,5154,, the5155DTthe government5156NNgovernment does5157VVZdo n't5158RBn't dispute5159VVdispute here5160RBhere ,5161,, to5162TOto redact5163VVredact that5164DTthat information5165NNinformation and5166CCand provide5167VVprovide only5168RBonly the5169DTthe crucial5170JJcrucial information5171NNinformation .5172SENT. And5173CCand I5174PPI think5175VVPthink the5176DTthe reason5177NNreason ,5178,, again5179RBagain ,5180,, particularly5181RBparticularly in5182INin this5183DTthis context5184NNcontext of5185INof vocational5186JJvocational experts5187NNSexpert ,5188,, why5189WRBwhy this5190DTthis data5191NNdata is5192VBZbe so5193RBso important5194JJimportant and5195CCand why5196WRBwhy the5197DTthe failure5198NNfailure to5199TOto provide5200VVprovide it5201PPit is5202VBZbe so5203RBso practically5204RBpractically harmful5205JJharmful ,5206,, in5207INin addition5208NNaddition ,5209,, we5210PPwe think5211VVPthink ,5212,, to5213TOto being5214VBGbe in5215INin conflict5216NNconflict with5217INwith the5218DTthe substantial5219JJsubstantial evidence5220NNevidence standard5221NNstandard ,5222,, is5223VBZbe because5224INbecause these5225DTthese experts5226NNSexpert are5227VBPbe bringing5228VVGbring together5229RBtogether very5230RBvery old5231JJold definitions5232NNSdefinition of5233INof jobs5234NNSjob with5235INwith entirely5236RBentirely different5237JJdifferent taxonomy5238NNtaxonomy of5239INof job5240NNjob numbers5241NNSnumber ,5242,, putting5243VVGput the5244DTthe numbers5245NNSnumber together5246RBtogether and5247CCand coming5248VVGcome up5249RPup with5250INwith a5251DTa result5252NNresult ,5253,, and5254CCand then5255RBthen ,5256,, in5257INin certain5258JJcertain circumstances5259NNScircumstance ,5260,, reducing5261VVGreduce that5262DTthat result5263NNresult further5264RBRfurther based5265VVNbase on5266INon further5267JJRfurther hypotheticals5268NNShypotheticals posed5269VVNpose by5270INby the5271DTthe ALJ5272NPALJ .5273SENT. So5274RBso it5275PPit is5276VBZbe a5277DTa data-intensive5278JJdata-intensive process5279NNprocess .5280SENT. The5281DTthe vocational5282JJvocational expert5283NNexpert identified5284VVNidentify as5285INas much5286JJmuch in5287INin her5288PP$her testimony5289NNtestimony .5290SENT. And5291CCand not5292RBnot even5293RBeven having5294VHGhave the5295DTthe numbers5296NNSnumber that5297IN/thatthat the5298DTthe vocational5299JJvocational expert5300NNexpert is5301VBZbe admitting5302VVGadmit she5303PPshe relied5304VVDrely upon5305RPupon hampers5306NNShamper not5307RBnot only5308RBonly the5309DTthe claimant5310NNclaimant 's5311POS's representative5312NNrepresentative 's5313VBZbe ability5314NNability to5315TOto cross-examination5316NNcross-examination but5317CCbut also5318RBalso crucially5319RBcrucially the5320DTthe ALJ5321NPALJ 's5322POS's ability5323NNability to5324TOto actually5325RBactually determine5326VVdetermine whether5327INwhether there5328EXthere are5329VBPbe real5330JJreal numbers5331NNSnumber here5332RBhere .5333SENT. Mr5334NPMr .5335SENT. Chief5336NPChief Justice5337NPJustice ,5338,, if5339INif I5340PPI may5341MDmay ...5342:... may5343MDmay reserve5344VVreserve the5345DTthe remainder5346NNremainder of5347INof my5348PP$my time5349NNtime .5350SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5351LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5352VVthank you5353PPyou ,5354,, counsel5355NNcounsel .5356SENT. Mr5357NPMr .5358SENT. Yang5359NPYang .5360SENT.