[MR. ESTRADA]28LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Mr29NPMr .30SENT. Chief31NPChief Justice32NPJustice ,33,, and34CCand may35MDmay it36PPit please37VVplease the38DTthe Court39NPCourt :40:: The41DTthe Ninth42JJninth Circuit43NNcircuit held44VVNhold in45INin this46DTthis case47NNcase that48IN/thatthat a49DTa plaintiff50NNplaintiff may51MDmay succeed52VVsucceed on53INon a54DTa Section55NPSection 198156CD@card@ claim57NNclaim merely58RBmerely by59INby showing60VVGshow that61DTthat race62NNrace was63VBDbe a64DTa factor65NNfactor that66WDTthat was67VBDbe considered68VVNconsider in69INin the70DTthe defendant71NNdefendant 's72POS's decision-making73NNdecision-making ,74,, even75RBeven if76INif the77DTthe decision78NNdecision would79MDwould have80VHhave made81VVNmake and82CCand was83VBDbe made84VVNmake for85INfor entirely86RBentirely appropriate87JJappropriate business88NNbusiness reasons89NNSreason having90VHGhave nothing91NNnothing to92TOto do93VVdo with94INwith race95NNrace .96SENT. Solely97RBsolely on98INon this99DTthis basis100NNbasis ,101,, the102DTthe Ninth103JJninth Circuit104NNcircuit saved105VVDsave the106DTthe Plaintiff107NNplaintiff 's108POS's third109JJthird complaint110NNcomplaint from111INfrom dismissal112NNdismissal .113SENT. We114PPwe submit115VVPsubmit that116IN/thatthat this117DTthis decision118NNdecision is119VBZbe wrong120JJwrong and121CCand should122MDshould be123VBbe reversed124VVNreverse for125INfor at126INat least127JJSleast three128CDthree reasons129NNSreason .130SENT. The131DTthe first132JJfirst is133VBZbe that134IN/thatthat it135PPit is136VBZbe contrary137JJcontrary to138TOto this139DTthis Court140NPCourt 's141POS's decisions142NNSdecision ,143,, such144JJsuch as145INas Gross146NPGross and147CCand Nassar148NPNassar ,149,, holding150VVGhold that151IN/thatthat but-for152NNbut-for causation153NNcausation is154VBZbe the155DTthe background156NNbackground rule157NNrule that158IN/thatthat Congress159NPCongress must160MDmust have161VHhave presumed162VVNpresume to163TOto have164VHhave been165VBNbe adopted166VVNadopt in167INin all168DTall federal169JJfederal statutes170NNSstatute unless171INunless the172DTthe statute173NNstatute provides174VVZprovide otherwise175RBotherwise ,176,, which177WDTwhich we178PPwe submit179VVPsubmit Section180NPSection 1981181CD@card@ does182VVZdo not183RBnot ,184,, either185CCeither as186RBas originally187RBoriginally adopted188VVNadopt in189INin 1866190CD@card@ or191CCor as192RBas amended193VVNamend in194INin 7195CD7 1991196CD@card@ .197SENT. Second198RBsecond ,199,, in200INin 1991201CD@card@ ,202,, Congress203NPCongress amended204VVDamend Title205NPTitle VII206NPVII to207TOto provide208VVprovide for209INfor a210DTa motivating211VVGmotivate factor212NNfactor standard213NNstandard but214CCbut did215VVDdo not216RBnot amend217VVamend Section218NPSection 1981219CD@card@ to220TOto provide221VVprovide the222DTthe same223JJsame ,224,, even225RBeven though226INthough it227PPit amended228VVDamend Section229NNsection in230INin other231JJother respects232NNSrespect at233INat the234DTthe same235JJsame time236NNtime .237SENT. This238DTthis all239RBall but240CCbut conclusively241RBconclusively shows242VVZshow that243DTthat Section244NNsection 1981245CD@card@ requires246VVZrequire but-for247NNbut-for causation248NNcausation ,249,, as250INas this251DTthis Court252NPCourt concluded253VVDconclude in254INin Gross255NPGross and256CCand Nassar257NPNassar ,258,, with259INwith respect260NNrespect to261TOto the262DTthe ADEA263NPADEA and264CCand the265DTthe retaliation266NNretaliation provisions267NNSprovision of268INof Title269NPTitle VII270NPVII .271SENT. And272CCand ,273,, third274JJthird ,275,, it276PPit is277VBZbe ...278:... if279INif the280DTthe Ninth281JJninth Circuit282NNcircuit is283VBZbe affirmed284VVNaffirm ,285,, it286PPit would287MDwould be288VBbe vastly289RBvastly easier290JJReasy to291TOto recover292VVrecover damages293NNSdamage under294INunder Section295NPSection 1981296CD@card@ 's297VBZbe judicially298RBjudicially implied299VVNimply cause300NNcause of301INof action302NNaction than303INthan under304INunder any305DTany express306JJexpress cause307NNcause of308INof action309NNaction actually310RBactually enacted311VVNenact by312INby Congress313NPCongress under314INunder any315DTany federal316JJfederal antidiscrimination317NNantidiscrimination law318NNlaw .319SENT. And320CCand ,321,, thus322RBthus ,323,, affirming324VVGaffirm the325DTthe Ninth326JJninth Circuit327NNcircuit would328MDwould effectively329RBeffectively mean330VVmean that331IN/thatthat Section332NPSection 1981333CD@card@ would334MDwould completely335RBcompletely displace336VVdisplace the337DTthe carefully338RBcarefully tailored339VVNtailor regime340NNregime that341IN/thatthat Congress342NPCongress has343VHZhave devised344VVNdevise in345INin Title346NPTitle VII347NPVII to348TOto govern349VVgovern employment350NNemployment discrimination351NNdiscrimination cases352NNScase .353SENT. No354DTno well-advised355JJwell-advised plaintiff356NNplaintiff would357MDwould ever358RBever sue359VVsue under360INunder Title361NPTitle VII362NPVII in363INin any364DTany employment365NNemployment case366NNcase .367SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]368LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Counsel369NPCounsel ,370,, I371PPI wonder372VVPwonder if373INif the374DTthe distinction375NNdistinction they376PPthey 're377VBPbe fighting378VVGfight over379RBover is380VBZbe ...381:... is382VBZbe somewhat383RBsomewhat academic384JJacademic .385SENT. In386INin the387DTthe contract388NNcontract negotiation389NNnegotiation process390NNprocess ,391,, for392INfor example393NNexample ,394,, there395EXthere may396MDmay be397VBbe several398JJseveral steps399NNSstep along400INalong the401DTthe way402NNway ,403,, and404CCand if405INif at406INat one407CDone of408INof those409DTthose steps410NNSstep there411EXthere 's412VBZbe clear413JJclear racial414JJracial ...415:... excuse416VVexcuse me417PPme ...418:... animus419NNanimus evident420JJevident and421CCand that422WDTthat ,423,, you424PPyou know425VVPknow ,426,, the427DTthe process428NNprocess continues429VVZcontinue on430INon ,431,, and432CCand at433INat the434DTthe end435NNend of436INof the437DTthe day438NNday ,439,, the440DTthe contract441NNcontract is442VBZbe denied443VVNdeny ,444,, it445PPit may446MDmay be447VBbe hard448JJhard to449TOto prove450VVprove but-for451NNbut-for causation452NNcausation .453SENT. On454INon the455DTthe other456JJother hand457NNhand ,458,, it459PPit 's460VBZbe also461RBalso hard462JJhard to463TOto ignore464VVignore the465DTthe part466NNpart ...467:... the468DTthe step469NNstep in470INin which471WDTwhich there472EXthere was473VBDbe clearly474RBclearly evident475JJevident racial476JJracial animus477NNanimus .478SENT. And479CCand it480PPit may481MDmay be482VBbe a483DTa reasonable484JJreasonable argument485NNargument or486CCor ...487:... or488CCor ...489:... excuse490VVexcuse me491PPme ...492:... allegation493NNallegation that494IN/thatthat that495DTthat animus496NNanimus continued497VVDcontinue through498RPthrough ,499,, even500RBeven though501RBthough manifested502VVNmanifest only503RBonly at504INat one505CDone stage506NNstage of507INof the508DTthe process509NNprocess .510SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]511LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well512UHWell ,513,, all514DTall complaints515NNScomplaint are516VBPbe different517JJdifferent ,518,, Mr519NPMr .520SENT. Chief521NPChief Justice522NPJustice ,523,, and524CCand I525PPI do526VVPdo n't527RBn't rule528VVrule out529RPout ,530,, you531PPyou know532VVPknow ,533,, the534DTthe possibility535NNpossibility that536IN/thatthat a537DTa complaint538NNcomplaint may539MDmay allege540VVallege such541PDTsuch an542DTan expression543NNexpression of544INof animus545NNanimus that546IN/thatthat it547PPit could548MDcould actually549RBactually imply550VVimply that551IN/thatthat the552DTthe animus553NNanimus continued554VVDcontinue until555INuntil the556DTthe end557NNend ,558,, such559JJsuch that560IN/thatthat it561PPit ...562:... the563DTthe complaint564NNcomplaint does565VVZdo allege566VVallege but-for567NNbut-for causation568NNcausation .569SENT. Now570RBnow the571DTthe Plaintiffs572NNSplaintiff ,573,, from574INfrom the575DTthe motion576NNmotion to577TOto dismiss578VVdismiss in579INin this580DTthis case581NNcase to582TOto the583DTthe Ninth584JJninth Circuit585NNcircuit ,586,, have587VHPhave stuck588VVNstick their589PP$their case590NNcase on591INon the592DTthe proposition593NNproposition that594IN/thatthat they595PPthey are596VBPbe alleging597VVGallege that598IN/thatthat race599NNrace was600VBDbe a601DTa motivating602VVGmotivate factor603NNfactor and604CCand a605DTa motivating606VVGmotivate factor607NNfactor only608RBonly ,609,, and610CCand they611PPthey were612VBDbe not613RBnot prepared614VVNprepare to615TOto prove616VVprove but-for617NNbut-for causation618NNcausation .619SENT. And620CCand ,621,, you622PPyou know623VVPknow ,624,, we625PPwe contend626VVPcontend that627IN/thatthat that628DTthat is629VBZbe wrong630JJwrong under631INunder Gross632NPGross and633CCand Nassar634NPNassar .635SENT. Now636RBnow we637PPwe do638VVPdo n't639RBn't think640VVthink that641IN/thatthat this642DTthis complaint643NNcomplaint actually644RBactually passes645VVZpass pleading646VVGplead standards647NNSstandard under648INunder any649DTany standard650NNstandard ,651,, as652INas we653PPwe made654VVDmake clear655JJclear ,656,, but657CCbut ,658,, of659INof course660NNcourse ,661,, you662PPyou know663VVPknow ,664,, it665PPit is666VBZbe also667RBalso the668DTthe case669NNcase that670IN/thatthat we671PPwe have672VHPhave cases673NNScase like674INlike Gross675NPGross and676CCand Nassar677NPNassar in678INin which679WDTwhich it680PPit is681VBZbe evident682JJevident from683INfrom the684DTthe record685NNrecord that686IN/thatthat some687DTsome consideration688NNconsideration of689INof the690DTthe protected691JJprotected factor692NNfactor was693VBDbe made694VVNmake in695INin the696DTthe employment697NNemployment context698NNcontext .699SENT. And700CCand at701INat the702DTthe end703NNend ,704,, you705PPyou know706VVPknow ,707,, the708DTthe jury709NNjury still710RBstill had711VHDhave to712TOto be713VBbe instructed714VVNinstruct that715IN/thatthat it716PPit had717VHDhave to718TOto determine719VVdetermine whether720INwhether that721WDTthat was722VBDbe a723DTa determinative724JJdeterminative factor725NNfactor in726INin the727DTthe decision-making728NNdecision-making .729SENT. And730CCand in731INin all732DTall of733INof these734DTthese cases735NNScase ,736,, you737PPyou know738VVPknow ,739,, the740DTthe Court741NPCourt has742VHZhave already743RBalready determined744VVNdetermine that745IN/thatthat the746DTthe ...747:... that748IN/thatthat the749DTthe fact750NNfact finder751NNfinder will752MDwill have753VHhave to754TOto make755VVmake the756DTthe decision757NNdecision ,758,, as759RBas ...760:... as761INas Gross762NPGross said763VVDsay ,764,, whether765INwhether that766DTthat factor767NNfactor not768RBnot only769RBonly played770VVNplay a771DTa role772NNrole but773CCbut also774RBalso had775VHNhave ,776,, as777INas Justice778NPJustice Thomas779NPThomas put780VVDput it781PPit in782INin Gross783NPGross ,784,, a785DTa determinative786JJdeterminative effect787NNeffect in788INin the789DTthe decision-making790NNdecision-making .791SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]792LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Mr793NPMr .794SENT. Estrada795NPEstrada ,796,, you797PPyou said798VVDsay that799IN/thatthat the800DTthe Respondents801NNSrespondent here802RBhere continue803VVPcontinue to804TOto say805VVsay that806IN/thatthat they807PPthey do808VVPdo n't809RBn't have810VHhave to811TOto prove812VVprove but-for813NNbut-for causation814NNcausation .815SENT. I816PPI 'm817VBPbe a818DTa little819JJlittle bit820NNbit confused821VVNconfuse about822INabout that823DTthat point824NNpoint .825SENT. And826CCand I827PPI guess828VVPguess this829DTthis is830VBZbe for831INfor Mr832NPMr .833SENT. Chemerinsky834VVGChemerinsky to835TOto think836VVthink about837RBabout as838RBas well839RBwell .840SENT. But841CCbut ,842,, in843INin your844PP$your reply845NNreply brief846NNbrief ,847,, you848PPyou make849VVPmake the850DTthe good851JJgood point852NNpoint that853IN/thatthat on854INon page855NNpage 47856CD@card@ ...857:... [MR. ESTRADA]858LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Forty-nine859NPForty-nine .860SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]861LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...862:... or863CCor 49864CD@card@ ...865:... [MR. ESTRADA]866LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Right867RBright .868SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]869LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...870:... of871INof the872DTthe Respondents873NNSrespondent '874POS' brief875NNbrief ,876,, they877PPthey seem878VVPseem to879TOto say880VVsay the881DTthe opposite882NNopposite .883SENT. They884PPthey seem885VVPseem to886TOto suggest887VVsuggest by888INby quoting889VVGquote that890IN/thatthat Third891NPThird Circuit892NPCircuit case893NNcase ...894:... [MR. ESTRADA]895LOC[MR. ESTRADA] The896DTthe Kaz897NPKaz case898NNcase ,899,, right900RBright .901SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]902LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...903:... that904IN/thatthat ,905,, in906INin fact907NNfact ,908,, they909PPthey are910VBPbe going911VVGgo to912TOto have913VHhave to914TOto prove915VVprove but-for916NNbut-for causation917NNcausation at918INat the919DTthe end920NNend .921SENT. And922CCand the923DTthe question924NNquestion here925RBhere is926VBZbe really927RBreally what928WPwhat they929PPthey have930VHPhave to931TOto allege932VVallege now933RBnow .934SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]935LOC[MR. ESTRADA] I936PPI ...937:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]938LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And939CCand if940INif ...941:... if942INif ...943:... if944INif ...945:... if946INif we947PPwe take948VVPtake it949PPit that950DTthat way951NNway ,952,, I953PPI mean954VVPmean ,955,, Mr956NPMr .957SENT. Chemerinsky958NPChemerinsky can959MDcan say960VVsay what961WPwhat he962PPhe wants963VVZwant to964TOto say965VVsay about966INabout that967DTthat ,968,, but969CCbut let970VVPlet 's971VBZbe just972RBjust assume973VVassume that974IN/thatthat that975DTthat 's976VBZbe true977JJtrue ,978,, that979IN/thatthat they980PPthey are981VBPbe going982VVGgo to983TOto have984VHhave to985TOto plead986VVplead but-for987NNbut-for ...988:... excuse989VVexcuse me990PPme ,991,, that992IN/thatthat they993PPthey 're994VBPbe going995VVGgo to996TOto have997VHhave to998TOto prove999VVprove but-for1000NNbut-for causation1001NNcausation at1002INat the1003DTthe end1004NNend ;1005:; that1006WDTthat is1007VBZbe the1008DTthe ultimate1009JJultimate standard1010NNstandard in1011INin the1012DTthe case1013NNcase .1014SENT. But1015CCbut this1016DTthis is1017VBZbe a1018DTa complaint1019NNcomplaint .1020SENT. And1021CCand ,1022,, you1023PPyou know1024VVPknow ,1025,, it1026PPit 's1027VBZbe pre-discovery1028NNpre-discovery and1029CCand the1030DTthe Plaintiff1031NNplaintiff is1032VBZbe not1033RBnot going1034VVGgo to1035TOto know1036VVknow what1037WPwhat the1038DTthe Defendant1039NNdefendant was1040VBDbe thinking1041VVGthink about1042RBabout in1043INin making1044VVGmake whatever1045WDTwhatever contract1046NNcontract decisions1047NNSdecision the1048DTthe Defendant1049NNdefendant was1050VBDbe making1051VVGmake .1052SENT. And1053CCand ...1054:... and1055CCand ...1056:... and1057CCand so1058INso what1059WPwhat do1060VVPdo you1061PPyou think1062VVPthink the1063DTthe Plaintiff1064NNplaintiff has1065VHZhave to1066TOto allege1067VVallege at1068INat the1069DTthe beginning1070NNbeginning ?1071SENT? [MR. ESTRADA]1072LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well1073UHwell ,1074,, I1075PPI think1076VVPthink ...1077:... you1078PPyou know1079VVPknow ,1080,, I1081PPI have1082VHPhave two1083CDtwo answers1084NNSanswer to1085TOto that1086DTthat .1087SENT. I1088PPI think1089VVPthink ,1090,, first1091RBfirst ,1092,, the1093DTthe Ninth1094JJninth Circu1095NPCircu it1096PPit 's1097VBZbe ruling1098VVGrule in1099INin this1100DTthis case1101NNcase had1102VHDhave nothing1103NNnothing to1104TOto say1105VVsay about1106INabout the1107DTthe difference1108NNdifference between1109INbetween pleading1110VVGplead and1111CCand the1112DTthe merits1113NNSmerit .1114SENT. In1115INin fact1116NNfact ,1117,, the1118DTthe Ninth1119JJninth Circuit1120NNcircuit worked1121VVNwork from1122INfrom what1123WPwhat was1124VBDbe needed1125VVNneed to1126TOto prevail1127VVprevail on1128INon the1129DTthe merits1130NNSmerit to1131TOto then1132RBthen upholding1133VVGuphold the1134DTthe complaint1135NNcomplaint .1136SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1137LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Yeah1138NPYeah ,1139,, so1140RBso I1141PPI take1142VVPtake that1143DTthat point1144NNpoint ,1145,, and1146CCand I1147PPI would1148MDwould think1149VVthink that1150IN/thatthat if1151INif ...1152:... if1153INif my1154PP$my assumption1155NNassumption holds1156VVZhold ,1157,, which1158WDTwhich is1159VBZbe that1160IN/thatthat the1161DTthe Respondents1162NNSrespondent do1163VVPdo have1164VHPhave to1165TOto prove1166VVprove this1167DTthis at1168INat the1169DTthe end1170NNend ,1171,, then1172RBthen you1173PPyou would1174MDwould have1175VHhave to1176TOto say1177VVsay that1178IN/thatthat the1179DTthe Ninth1180JJninth Circuit1181NNcircuit is1182VBZbe wrong1183JJwrong .1184SENT. But1185CCbut you1186PPyou would1187MDwould still1188RBstill have1189VHhave ...1190:... [MR. ESTRADA]1191LOC[MR. ESTRADA] That1192DTthat would1193MDwould not1194RBnot be1195VBbe novel1196JJnovel .1197SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1198LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...1199:... the1200DTthe question1201NNquestion of1202INof whether1203INwhether the1204DTthe complaint1205NNcomplaint is1206VBZbe sufficient1207JJsufficient .1208SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1209LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Yes1210NPYes .1211SENT. Now1212RBnow the1213DTthe second1214JJsecond point1215NNpoint I1216PPI was1217VBDbe going1218VVGgo to1219TOto make1220VVmake is1221VBZbe the1222DTthe whole1223JJwhole question1224NNquestion of1225INof whether1226INwhether there1227EXthere may1228MDmay be1229VBbe burden-shifting1230NNburden-shifting has1231VHZhave been1232VBNbe introduced1233VVNintroduce somewhat1234RBsomewhat coyly1235RBcoyly by1236INby the1237DTthe Respondent1238NNrespondent .1239SENT. We1240PPwe do1241VVPdo n't1242RBn't actually1243RBactually know1244VVknow what1245WPwhat their1246PP$their position1247NNposition is1248VBZbe on1249INon that1250DTthat ,1251,, but1252CCbut I1253PPI understand1254VVPunderstand what1255WPwhat they1256PPthey 're1257VBPbe trying1258VVGtry to1259TOto say1260VVsay based1261VVNbase on1262INon the1263DTthe Kaz1264NPKaz case1265NNcase ,1266,, that1267WDTthat it1268PPit may1269MDmay be1270VBbe that1271DTthat but-for1272NNbut-for sort1273NNsort of1274INof applies1275VVZapply in1276INin the1277DTthe sense1278NNsense that1279IN/thatthat the1280DTthe burden1281NNburden of1282INof showing1283VVGshow but-for1284NNbut-for causation1285NNcausation is1286VBZbe shifted1287VVNshift to1288TOto us1289PPus so1290RBso that1291IN/thatthat ,1292,, in1293INin a1294DTa sense1295NNsense ,1296,, what1297WPwhat actually1298RBactually is1299VBZbe happening1300VVGhappen is1301VBZbe that1302IN/thatthat they1303PPthey are1304VBPbe arguing1305VVGargue for1306INfor the1307DTthe PriceWaterhouse1308NPPriceWaterhouse framework1309NNframework without1310INwithout daring1311VVGdare to1312TOto name1313VVname its1314PP$its name1315NNname .1316SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1317LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Yes1318NPYes ,1319,, so1320RBso they1321PPthey could1322MDcould be1323VBbe saying1324VVGsay that1325DTthat ...1326:... and1327CCand I1328PPI guess1329VVPguess this1330DTthis is1331VBZbe another1332DTanother thing1333NNthing for1334INfor Mr1335NPMr .1336SENT. Chemerinsky1337VVGChemerinsky to1338TOto be1339VBbe thinking1340VVGthink about1341RBabout ...1342:... they1343PPthey could1344MDcould be1345VBbe saying1346VVGsay that1347IN/thatthat ,1348,, that1349WDTthat this1350DTthis is1351VBZbe essentially1352RBessentially an1353DTan attempt1354NNattempt to1355TOto shift1356VVshift the1357DTthe burden1358NNburden of1359INof but-for1360NNbut-for causation1361NNcausation onto1362INonto you1363PPyou .1364SENT. But1365CCbut they1366PPthey do1367VVPdo n't1368RBn't have1369VHhave to1370TOto be1371VBbe saying1372VVGsay that1373DTthat .1374SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1375LOC[MR. ESTRADA] If1376INif I1377PPI ...1378:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1379LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Excuse1380NNexcuse me1381PPme ,1382,, Mr1383NPMr .1384SENT. Estrada1385NPEstrada .1386SENT. They1387PPthey do1388VVPdo n't1389RBn't have1390VHhave to1391TOto be1392VBbe saying1393VVGsay that1394DTthat .1395SENT. They1396PPthey could1397MDcould be1398VBbe saying1399VVGsay no1400RBno ,1401,, we1402PPwe ...1403:... we1404PPwe really1405RBreally do1406VVPdo believe1407VVPbelieve that1408IN/thatthat in1409INin the1410DTthe end1411NNend we1412PPwe 're1413VBPbe going1414VVGgo to1415TOto have1416VHhave to1417TOto prove1418VVprove but-for1419NNbut-for causation1420NNcausation ,1421,, but1422CCbut because1423INbecause we1424PPwe 're1425VBPbe pre-discovery1426JJpre-discovery ,1427,, because1428INbecause we1429PPwe can1430MDcan 't1431RB't really1432RBreally ...1433:... I1434PPI mean1435VVPmean ,1436,, you1437PPyou do1438VVPdo n't1439RBn't want1440VVwant people1441NNSpeople throwing1442VVGthrow around1443INaround baseless1444JJbaseless allegations1445NNSallegation in1446INin their1447PP$their complaint1448NNcomplaint ,1449,, that1450WDTthat ...1451:... that1452DTthat ...1453:... that1454IN/thatthat a1455DTa complaint1456NNcomplaint should1457MDshould be1458VBbe found1459VVNfind sufficient1460JJsufficient even1461RBeven if1462INif it1463PPit does1464VVZdo n't1465RBn't allege1466VVallege but-for1467NNbut-for causation1468NNcausation .1469SENT. You1470PPyou know1471VVPknow ,1472,, it1473PPit 's1474VBZbe enough1475JJenough to1476TOto say1477VVsay they1478PPthey made1479VVDmake a1480DTa racist1481JJracist mark1482NNmark and1483CCand they1484PPthey gave1485VVDgive ...1486:... and1487CCand they1488PPthey gave1489VVDgive contracts1490NNScontract to1491TOto lots1492NNSlot of1493INof white1494JJwhite firms1495NNSfirm that1496WDTthat were1497VBDbe n't1498RBn't as1499RBas good1500JJgood as1501INas our1502PP$our firm1503NNfirm .1504SENT. And1505CCand that1506DTthat 's1507VBZbe enough1508JJenough .1509SENT. Yes1510UHyes .1511SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1512LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well1513UHWell ,1514,, the1515DTthe ...1516:... now1517RBnow the1518DTthe ...1519:... the1520DTthe ...1521:... the1522DTthe answer1523NNanswer to1524TOto ...1525:... you1526PPyou know1527VVPknow ,1528,, the1529DTthe bottom1530JJbottom line1531NNline answer1532VVanswer to1533TOto ,1534,, I1535PPI think1536VVPthink ,1537,, the1538DTthe theory1539NNtheory that1540WDTthat underlies1541VVZunderlie all1542DTall of1543INof your1544PP$your questions1545NNSquestion is1546VBZbe that1547DTthat ...1548:... the1549DTthe answer1550NNanswer to1551TOto your1552PP$your question1553NNquestion is1554VBZbe actually1555RBactually controlled1556VVNcontrol by1557INby Rule1558NPRule 81559CD8 ,1560,, Twombly1561NPTwombly and1562CCand Iqbal1563NPIqbal .1564SENT. And1565CCand it1566PPit 's1567VBZbe actually1568RBactually very1569RBvery clear1570JJclear from1571INfrom Iqbal1572NPIqbal especially1573RBespecially ,1574,, which1575WDTwhich was1576VBDbe a1577DTa discrimination1578NNdiscrimination case1579NNcase ,1580,, and1581CCand from1582INfrom Twombly1583NPTwombly antecedently1584NPantecedently ,1585,, where1586WRBwhere Justice1587NPJustice Souter1588NPSouter ,1589,, in1590INin writing1591VVGwrite Twombly1592NPTwombly ,1593,, said1594VVDsay we1595PPwe do1596VVPdo not1597RBnot want1598VVwant people1599NNSpeople to1600TOto open1601VVopen the1602DTthe doors1603NNSdoor to1604TOto discovery1605NNdiscovery based1606VVNbase on1607INon conclusory1608JJconclusory allegations1609NNSallegation or1610CCor formulaic1611JJformulaic elements1612NNSelement of1613INof the1614DTthe offense1615NNoffense dressed1616VVNdress up1617RPup as1618INas factual1619JJfactual assertions1620NNSassertion .1621SENT. And1622CCand ,1623,, in1624INin our1625PP$our view1626NNview ,1627,, that1628WDTthat 's1629VBZbe what1630WPwhat we1631PPwe have1632VHPhave in1633INin this1634DTthis case1635NNcase .1636SENT. And1637CCand so1638RBso it1639PPit is1640VBZbe not1641RBnot an1642DTan answer1643NNanswer to1644TOto say1645VVsay ,1646,, because1647INbecause you1648PPyou can1649MDcan say1650VVsay that1651IN/thatthat in1652INin practically1653RBpractically every1654DTevery case1655NNcase ,1656,, antitrust1657JJantitrust ,1658,, antidiscrimination1659NNantidiscrimination ,1660,, et1661NPet cetera1662NPcetera ,1663,, that1664IN/thatthat the1665DTthe facts1666NNSfact especially1667RBespecially with1668INwith respect1669NNrespect to1670TOto mental1671JJmental state1672NNstate will1673MDwill always1674RBalways be1675VBbe in1676INin the1677DTthe possession1678NNpossession of1679INof the1680DTthe defendant1681NNdefendant .1682SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1683LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Well1684UHWell ,1685,, Mr1686NPMr .1687SENT. Estrada1688NPEstrada ,1689,, though1690RBthough ...1691:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1692LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] If1693INif ...1694:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1695LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Can1696MDcan I1697PPI ...1698:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1699LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...1700:... is1701VBZbe n't1702RBn't it1703PPit ...1704:... is1705VBZbe n't1706RBn't it1707PPit ...1708:... I'm1709NNI'm ...1710:... I1711PPI 'm1712VBPbe sorry1713JJsorry .1714SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1715LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] No1716NPNo ,1717,, go1718VVPgo ahead1719RBahead .1720SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1721LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Is1722VBZbe n't1723RBn't it1724PPit perfectly1725RBperfectly common1726JJcommon when1727WRBwhen ...1728:... when1729WRBwhen ...1730:... when1731WRBwhen you1732PPyou 're1733VBPbe alleging1734VVGallege a1735DTa mental1736JJmental state1737NNstate of1738INof an1739DTan opposing1740VVGoppose party1741NNparty and1742CCand you1743PPyou have1744VHPhave yet1745RByet to1746TOto have1747VHhave discovery1748NNdiscovery to1749TOto allege1750VVallege on1751INon information1752NNinformation and1753CCand belief1754NNbelief mental1755JJmental states1756NNSstate ,1757,, and1758CCand is1759VBZbe n't1760RBn't that1761IN/thatthat the1762DTthe simple1763JJsimple solution1764NNsolution here1765RBhere ?1766SENT? [MR. ESTRADA]1767LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well1768UHWell ,1769,, yes1770UHyes and1771CCand no1772RBno ,1773,, Justice1774NPJustice Gorsuch1775NPGorsuch .1776SENT. You1777PPyou can1778MDcan ...1779:... you1780PPyou can1781MDcan ...1782:... you1783PPyou can1784MDcan allege1785VVallege that1786IN/thatthat so1787RBso long1788RBlong ,1789,, under1790INunder Twombly1791NPTwombly and1792CCand Iqbal1793NPIqbal ,1794,, as1795INas you1796PPyou also1797RBalso allege1798VVPallege ...1799:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1800LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You1801PPyou have1802VHPhave to1803TOto have1804VHhave a1805DTa good1806JJgood faith1807NNfaith ...1808:... [MR. ESTRADA]1809LOC[MR. ESTRADA] ...1810:... facts1811NNSfact from1812INfrom which1813WDTwhich ...1814:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1815LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...1816:... right1817RBright ,1818,, right1819RBright ,1820,, but1821CCbut positing1822VVGposit Justice1823NPJustice Kagan1824NPKagan 's1825POS's facts1826NNSfact ,1827,, there1828EXthere 's1829VBZbe a1830DTa statement1831NNstatement and1832CCand you1833PPyou have1834VHPhave some1835DTsome factual1836JJfactual circumstances1837NNScircumstance that1838WDTthat might1839MDmight lead1840VVlead to1841TOto that1842DTthat inference1843NNinference .1844SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1845LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Yes1846UHyes ,1847,, yes1848UHyes .1849SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]1850LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Then1851RBthen you1852PPyou would1853MDwould ...1854:... you1855PPyou would1856MDwould plead1857VVplead that1858DTthat mental1859JJmental state1860NNstate .1861SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1862LOC[MR. ESTRADA] And1863CCand if1864INif you1865PPyou plead1866VVPplead the1867DTthe factual1868JJfactual circumstances1869NNScircumstance that1870WDTthat plausibly1871RBplausibly give1872VVPgive rise1873NNrise to1874TOto the1875DTthe inference1876NNinference ,1877,, then1878RBthen you1879PPyou would1880MDwould have1881VHhave a1882DTa case1883NNcase that1884WDTthat ...1885:... that1886WDTthat possibly1887RBpossibly complies1888VVZcomply with1889INwith Twombly1890NPTwombly and1891CCand Iqbal1892NPIqbal .1893SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1894LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well1895UHWell ,1896,, but1897CCbut is1898VBZbe n't1899RBn't that1900IN/thatthat the1901DTthe point1902NNpoint ...1903:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1904LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Maybe1905RBmaybe .1906SENT. I1907PPI mean1908VVPmean ,1909,, you1910PPyou ...1911:... you1912PPyou said1913VVDsay Iqbal1914NPIqbal and1915CCand Twombly1916NPTwombly ,1917,, and1918CCand that1919WDTthat seems1920VVZseem quite1921RBquite right1922RBright ,1923,, but1924CCbut we1925PPwe had1926VHDhave this1927DTthis case1928NNcase before1929INbefore Iqbal1930NPIqbal and1931CCand Twombly1932NPTwombly ,1933,, which1934WDTwhich is1935VBZbe in1936INin the1937DTthe Title1938NPTitle VII1939NPVII context1940NNcontext ...1941:... I1942PPI 'm1943VBPbe not1944RBnot sure1945JJsure how1946WRBhow to1947TOto pronounce1948VVpronounce it1949PPit ...1950:... Swierkiewicz1951NNSwierkiewicz or1952CCor something1953NNsomething like1954INlike that1955DTthat .1956SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]1957LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Versus1958FWversus Sorema1959NPSorema ,1960,, yes1961UHyes .1962SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1963LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Which1964WDTwhich ...1965:... which1966WDTwhich ...1967:... which1968WDTwhich Twombly1969NPTwombly said1970VVDsay we1971PPwe 're1972VBPbe thinking1973VVGthink about1974INabout that1975DTthat case1976NNcase and1977CCand that1978IN/thatthat case1979NNcase is1980VBZbe still1981RBstill good1982JJgood law1983NNlaw .1984SENT. And1985CCand what1986WPwhat ...1987:... and1988CCand what1989WPwhat ...1990:... what1991WPwhat that1992DTthat case1993NNcase said1994VVDsay ...1995:... this1996DTthis was1997VBDbe actually1998RBactually a1999DTa McDonnell2000NPMcDonnell Douglas2001NPDouglas shifting2002VVGshift case2003NNcase ...2004:... [MR. ESTRADA]2005LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Uh-huh2006NPUh-huh .2007SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2008LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...2009:... with2010INwith the2011DTthe prima2012JJprima facie2013NNfacie case2014NNcase .2015SENT. And2016CCand Swierkiewicz2017NPSwierkiewicz said2018VVDsay you2019PPyou do2020VVPdo n't2021RBn't actually2022RBactually have2023VHhave to2024TOto in2025INin your2026PP$your pleadings2027NNSpleading even2028RBeven show2029VVPshow the2030DTthe prime2031JJprime facie2032NNfacie case2033NNcase ,2034,, that2035WDTthat we2036PPwe understand2037VVPunderstand pleadings2038NNSpleading in2039INin this2040DTthis field2041NNfield are2042VBPbe really2043RBreally different2044JJdifferent .2045SENT. And2046CCand ...2047:... and2048CCand Iqbal2049NPIqbal and2050CCand Twombly2051NPTwombly says2052VVZsay ,2053,, yeah2054RByeah ,2055,, that2056WDTthat 's2057VBZbe still2058RBstill good2059JJgood law2060NNlaw .2061SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]2062LOC[MR. ESTRADA] With2063INwith all2064DTall due2065JJdue respect2066NNrespect ,2067,, Justice2068NPJustice Kagan2069NPKagan ,2070,, I2071PPI think2072VVPthink that2073IN/thatthat that2074DTthat is2075VBZbe not2076RBnot a2077DTa fully2078RBfully accurate2079JJaccurate characterization2080NNcharacterization of2081INof the2082DTthe case2083NNcase or2084CCor of2085INof how2086WRBhow Iqbal2087NPIqbal actually2088RBactually distinguished2089VVDdistinguish it2090PPit .2091SENT. What2092WPWhat was2093VBDbe happening2094VVGhappen in2095INin the2096DTthe Sorema2097NPSorema case2098NNcase ...2099:... let2100VVlet 's2101VBZbe call2102VVcall it2103PPit that2104IN/thatthat to2105TOto make2106VVmake our2107PP$our lives2108NNSlife easier2109RBReasier ...2110:... is2111VBZbe that2112IN/thatthat the2113DTthe Second2114NPSecond Circuit2115NPCircuit had2116VHDhave ruled2117VVNrule that2118IN/thatthat the2119DTthe complaint2120NNcomplaint was2121VBDbe deficient2122JJdeficient because2123INbecause the2124DTthe plaintiff2125NNplaintiff had2126VHDhave pled2127VVNplead ...2128:... had2129VHDhave failed2130VVNfail to2131TOto allege2132VVallege the2133DTthe McDonnell2134NPMcDonnell Douglas2135NPDouglas framework2136NNframework in2137INin the2138DTthe complaint2139NNcomplaint .2140SENT. Now2141RBnow the2142DTthe Court2143NPCourt overturned2144VVDoverturn that2145DTthat ruling2146NNruling ,2147,, pointing2148VVGpoint out2149RPout that2150IN/thatthat the2151DTthe McDonnell2152NPMcDonnell Douglas2153NPDouglas framework2154NNframework is2155VBZbe an2156DTan evidentiary2157JJevidentiary framework2158NNframework that2159IN/thatthat a2160DTa plaintiff2161NNplaintiff may2162MDmay choose2163VVchoose to2164TOto use2165VVuse at2166INat a2167DTa trial2168NNtrial ,2169,, not2170RBnot a2171DTa pleading2172VVGplead framework2173NNframework .2174SENT. And2175CCand that2176DTthat was2177VBDbe what2178WPwhat Twombly2179NPTwombly actually2180RBactually later2181RBRlater ,2182,, you2183PPyou know2184VVPknow ,2185,, reaffirmed2186VVDreaffirm .2187SENT. And2188CCand what2189WPwhat Twombly2190NPTwombly was2191VBDbe basically2192RBbasically saying2193VVGsay is2194VBZbe you2195PPyou may2196MDmay choose2197VVchoose to2198TOto prove2199VVprove your2200PP$your case2201NNcase in2202INin a2203DTa particular2204JJparticular way2205NNway ,2206,, but2207CCbut you2208PPyou are2209VBPbe not2210RBnot required2211VVNrequire to2212TOto ...2213:... to2214TOto ...2215:... to2216TOto plead2217VVplead that2218IN/thatthat in2219INin all2220DTall cases2221NNScase .2222SENT. McDonnell2223NPMcDonnell Douglas2224NPDouglas ,2225,, for2226INfor example2227NNexample ,2228,, does2229VVZdo not2230RBnot even2231RBeven apply2232VVapply if2233INif you2234PPyou have2235VHPhave direct2236JJdirect evidence2237NNevidence of2238INof discrimination2239NNdiscrimination .2240SENT. It2241PPit 's2242VBZbe a2243DTa way2244NNway to2245TOto prove2246VVprove your2247PP$your case2248NNcase circumstantially2249RBcircumstantially .2250SENT. So2251RBso it2252PPit does2253VVZdo n't2254RBn't make2255VVmake sense2256NNsense to2257TOto impose2258VVimpose on2259INon plaintiffs2260NNSplaintiff ,2261,, you2262PPyou know2263VVPknow ,2264,, the2265DTthe burden2266NNburden to2267TOto put2268VVput that2269IN/thatthat in2270INin a2271DTa pleading2272NNpleading .2273SENT. And2274CCand I2275PPI think2276VVPthink all2277PDTall the2278DTthe Court2279NPCourt was2280VBDbe saying2281VVGsay is2282VBZbe that2283IN/thatthat if2284INif a2285DTa plaintiff2286NNplaintiff has2287VHZhave a2288DTa choice2289NNchoice down2290INdown the2291DTthe road2292NNroad to2293TOto prove2294VVprove his2295PP$his case2296NNcase in2297INin a2298DTa particular2299JJparticular way2300NNway ,2301,, that2302WDTthat is2303VBZbe not2304RBnot a2305DTa requirement2306NNrequirement of2307INof pleading2308VVGplead .2309SENT. But2310CCbut ,2311,, again2312RBagain ,2313,, none2314NNnone of2315INof that2316WDTthat has2317VHZhave anything2318NNanything to2319TOto do2320VVdo with2321INwith ...2322:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2323LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But2324CCbut I2325PPI 'm2326VBPbe not2327RBnot sure2328JJsure ...2329:... I2330PPI go2331VVPgo back2332RBback to2333TOto the2334DTthe Chief2335NPChief Justice2336NPJustice 's2337POS's initial2338JJinitial point2339NNpoint ,2340,, which2341WDTwhich is2342VBZbe ,2343,, if2344INif I2345PPI come2346VVPcome forward2347RBforward and2348CCand show2349VVshow that2350DTthat race2351NNrace was2352VBDbe a2353DTa motivating2354VVGmotivate factor2355NNfactor ,2356,, it2357PPit can2358MDcan also2359RBalso be2360VBbe the2361DTthe but-for2362NNbut-for .2363SENT. Until2364INuntil a2365DTa defendant2366NNdefendant is2367VBZbe deposed2368VVNdepose and2369CCand discovery2370NNdiscovery is2371VBZbe held2372VVNhold ,2373,, then2374RBthen that2375DTthat becomes2376VVZbecome an2377DTan issue2378NNissue for2379INfor the2380DTthe trier2381NNtrier of2382INof fact2383NNfact of2384INof whether2385INwhether or2386CCor not2387RBnot that2388DTthat motivating2389VVGmotivate factor2390NNfactor was2391VBDbe a2392DTa but-for2393NNbut-for cause2394NNcause .2395SENT. So2396RBso I2397PPI think2398VVPthink as2399RBas long2400RBlong as2401INas you2402PPyou have2403VHPhave enough2404RBenough in2405INin your2406PP$your complaint2407NNcomplaint to2408TOto show2409VVshow racial2410JJracial animus2411NNanimus and2412CCand a2413DTa reasonable2414JJreasonable inference2415NNinference can2416MDcan be2417VBbe drawn2418VVNdraw that2419IN/thatthat that2420DTthat 's2421VBZbe a2422DTa but-for2423NNbut-for cause2424NNcause ,2425,, I2426PPI think2427VVPthink a2428DTa plaintiff2429NNplaintiff has2430VHZhave done2431VVNdo more2432JJRmore than2433INthan enough2434RBenough .2435SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]2436LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well2437UHWell ...2438:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2439LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] What2440WPWhat you2441PPyou seem2442VVPseem to2443TOto be2444VBbe suggesting2445VVGsuggest is2446VBZbe that2447IN/thatthat they2448PPthey 're2449VBPbe required2450VVNrequire to2451TOto anticipate2452VVanticipate every2453DTevery potentially2454RBpotentially independent2455JJindependent reason2456NNreason you2457PPyou may2458MDmay have2459VHhave had2460VHNhave without2461INwithout really2462RBreally knowing2463VVGknow it2464PPit ...2465:... [MR. ESTRADA]2466LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well2467UHWell ...2468:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2469LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...2470:... and2471CCand disproving2472VVGdisprove it2473PPit in2474INin the2475DTthe complaint2476NNcomplaint .2477SENT. That2478DTthat makes2479VVZmake no2480DTno sense2481NNsense .2482SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]2483LOC[MR. ESTRADA] No2484NPNo ,2485,, actually2486RBactually ,2487,, I2488PPI ...2489:... I2490PPI have2491VHPhave said2492VVNsay nothing2493NNnothing to2494TOto ...2495:... to2496TOto that2497DTthat effect2498NNeffect ,2499,, Justice2500NPJustice Sotomayor2501NPSotomayor .2502SENT. I2503PPI have2504VHPhave said2505VVNsay that2506IN/thatthat under2507INunder Twombly2508NPTwombly and2509CCand Iqbal2510NPIqbal ,2511,, a2512DTa plaintiff2513NNplaintiff is2514VBZbe required2515VVNrequire to2516TOto allege2517VVallege facts2518NNSfact ,2519,, not2520RBnot conclusory2521JJconclusory recitation2522NNrecitation of2523INof the2524DTthe elements2525NNSelement of2526INof the2527DTthe offense2528NNoffense ,2529,, that2530WDTthat plausibly2531RBplausibly give2532VVPgive rise2533NNrise to2534TOto the2535DTthe inference2536NNinference .2537SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2538LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] The2539DTthe problem2540NNproblem is2541VBZbe that2542IN/thatthat the2543DTthe Ninth2544JJninth Circuit2545NNcircuit ...2546:... neither2547CCneither the2548DTthe Ninth2549JJninth Circuit2550NNcircuit and2551CCand even2552RBeven the2553DTthe government2554NNgovernment admits2555VVZadmit that2556IN/thatthat it2557PPit did2558VVDdo n't2559RBn't look2560VVlook at2561INat this2562DTthis complaint2563NNcomplaint through2564INthrough the2565DTthe lens2566NNlens that2567WDTthat would2568MDwould be2569VBbe provided2570VVNprovide if2571INif we2572PPwe find2573VVPfind but-for2574NNbut-for causation2575NNcausation .2576SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]2577LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Correct2578JJcorrect .2579SENT. But2580CCbut I2581PPI will2582MDwill point2583VVpoint out2584RPout that2585IN/thatthat if2586INif you2587PPyou find2588VVPfind but-for2589NNbut-for causation2590NNcausation ,2591,, you2592PPyou would2593MDwould then2594RBthen have2595VHhave to2596TOto examine2597VVexamine that2598IN/thatthat under2599INunder the2600DTthe requirements2601NNSrequirement of2602INof Iqbal2603NPIqbal that2604WDTthat require2605VVPrequire ...2606:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2607LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Not2608RBnot us2609PPus .2610SENT. The2611DTthe Ninth2612JJninth Circuit2613NNcircuit .2614SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]2615LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well2616UHWell ,2617,, somebody2618NNsomebody .2619SENT. It2620PPit would2621MDwould be2622VBbe ...2623:... it2624PPit would2625MDwould be2626VBbe permissible2627JJpermissible to2628TOto ...2629:... for2630INfor you2631PPyou as2632INas you2633PPyou did2634VVDdo in2635INin Twombly2636NPTwombly and2637CCand in2638INin Iqbal2639NPIqbal itself2640PPitself .2641SENT. Iqbal2642NPIqbal ,2643,, of2644INof course2645NNcourse ,2646,, was2647VBDbe a2648DTa discrimination2649NNdiscrimination case2650NNcase ,2651,, and2652CCand you2653PPyou examined2654VVDexamine the2655DTthe complaint2656NNcomplaint in2657INin that2658DTthat case2659NNcase ,2660,, too2661RBtoo ,2662,, thinking2663VVGthink that2664IN/thatthat that2665WDTthat would2666MDwould be2667VBbe informative2668JJinformative for2669INfor the2670DTthe lower2671JJRlow courts2672NNScourt .2673SENT. It2674PPit would2675MDwould not2676RBnot be2677VBbe ,2678,, you2679PPyou know2680VVPknow ,2681,, with2682INwith all2683DTall due2684JJdue respect2685NNrespect ,2686,, you2687PPyou know2688VVPknow ,2689,, as2690INas many2691JJmany worthy2692JJworthy efforts2693NNSeffort have2694VHPhave been2695VBNbe made2696VVNmake in2697INin this2698DTthis case2699NNcase ,2700,, through2701INthrough Blueline2702NPBlueline ,2703,, the2704DTthe complaint2705NNcomplaint in2706INin this2707DTthis case2708NNcase ,2709,, for2710INfor the2711DTthe edification2712NNedification of2713INof the2714DTthe Court2715NPCourt .2716SENT. I2717PPI mean2718VVPmean ,2719,, it2720PPit is2721VBZbe worth2722JJworth reading2723NNreading because2724INbecause there2725EXthere are2726VBPbe any2727DTany number2728NNnumber of2729INof allegations2730NNSallegation in2731INin the2732DTthe complaint2733NNcomplaint to2734TOto the2735DTthe ...2736:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2737LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But2738CCbut if2739INif the2740DTthe ...2741:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2742LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] There2743EXthere are2744VBPbe a2745DTa lot2746NNlot of2747INof ...2748:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2749LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...2750:... Mr2751NPMr .2752SENT. Estrada2753NPEstrada ,2754,, if2755INif the2756DTthe ...2757:... if2758INif the2759DTthe Respondents2760NNSrespondent now2761RBnow agree2762VVPagree that2763IN/thatthat in2764INin the2765DTthe end2766NNend the2767DTthe burden2768NNburden of2769INof ...2770:... the2771DTthe ...2772:... the2773DTthe ...2774:... the2775DTthe substantive2776JJsubstantive standard2777NNstandard is2778VBZbe but-for2779JJbut-for ,2780,, is2781VBZbe there2782RBthere a2783DTa dispute2784NNdispute about2785INabout that2786DTthat issue2787NNissue before2788INbefore us2789PPus ,2790,, or2791CCor is2792VBZbe the2793DTthe only2794JJonly question2795NNquestion before2796INbefore us2797PPus whether2798INwhether enough2799JJenough facts2800NNSfact were2801VBDbe pled2802VVNplead under2803INunder 122804CD@card@ (2805(( b2806LSb )2807)) (2808(( 62809CD6 )2810)) and2811CCand Iqbal2812NPIqbal and2813CCand Twombly2814NPTwombly ,2815,, which2816WDTwhich is2817VBZbe what2818WPwhat this2819DTthis seems2820VVZseem to2821TOto have2822VHhave devolved2823VVNdevolve into2824INinto and2825CCand is2826VBZbe ,2827,, therefore2828RBtherefore ,2829,, not2830RBnot the2831DTthe big2832JJbig issue2833NNissue that2834WDTthat has2835VHZhave been2836VBNbe portrayed2837VVNportray ?2838SENT? [MR. ESTRADA]2839LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Well2840UHwell ,2841,, I2842PPI think2843VVPthink that2844IN/thatthat for2845INfor ...2846:... they2847PPthey would2848MDwould further2849RBRfurther have2850VHhave to2851TOto agree2852VVagree that2853IN/thatthat what2854WPwhat they2855PPthey mean2856VVPmean is2857VBZbe but-for2858NNbut-for causation2859NNcausation ,2860,, and2861CCand they2862PPthey bear2863VVPbear the2864DTthe burden2865NNburden of2866INof persuasion2867NNpersuasion like2868INlike on2869INon all2870DTall elements2871NNSelement .2872SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2873LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So2874INso the2875DTthe disagreement2876NNdisagreement then2877RBthen would2878MDwould be2879VBbe ,2880,, you2881PPyou know2882VVPknow ,2883,, if2884INif the2885DTthe evidence2886NNevidence is2887VBZbe exactly2888RBexactly in2889INin equipoise2890NNequipoise ,2891,, which2892WDTwhich way2893RBway does2894VVZdo it2895PPit go2896VVgo ...2897:... [MR. ESTRADA]2898LOC[MR. ESTRADA] No2899RBno ,2900,, I2901PPI think2902VVPthink they2903PPthey ...2904:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2905LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...2906:... that2907WDTthat 's2908VBZbe what2909WPwhat it2910PPit would2911MDwould be2912VBbe ?2913SENT? [MR. ESTRADA]2914LOC[MR. ESTRADA] ...2915:... no2916UHno ,2917,, I2918PPI think2919VVPthink what2920WPwhat they2921PPthey mean2922VVPmean to2923TOto say2924VVsay in2925INin accepting2926VVGaccept the2927DTthe CAS2928NNCas standard2929NNstandard is2930VBZbe but-for2931NNbut-for in2932INin the2933DTthe sense2934NNsense that2935IN/thatthat they2936PPthey accept2937VVPaccept the2938DTthe PriceWaterhouse2939NPPriceWaterhouse plurality2940NNplurality opinion2941NNopinion .2942SENT. They2943PPthey just2944RBjust do2945VVPdo n't2946RBn't want2947VVwant to2948TOto call2949VVcall it2950PPit that2951IN/thatthat because2952INbecause they2953PPthey understand2954VVPunderstand that2955IN/thatthat this2956DTthis Court2957NPCourt is2958VBZbe not2959RBnot buying2960VVGbuy it2961PPit .2962SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2963LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Okay2964NPOkay .2965SENT. So2966RBso it2967PPit 's2968VBZbe ...2969:... it2970PPit 's2971VBZbe ...2972:... what2973WPwhat would2974MDwould happen2975VVhappen if2976INif it2977PPit 's2978VBZbe in2979INin equipoise2980NNequipoise and2981CCand who2982WPwho has2983VHZhave the2984DTthe burden2985NNburden of2986INof production2987NNproduction on2988INon the2989DTthe issue2990NNissue ?2991SENT? [MR. ESTRADA]2992LOC[MR. ESTRADA] The2993DTthe burden2994NNburden of2995INof persuasion2996NNpersuasion ,2997,, Your2998PP$your Honor2999NPHonor ,3000,, because3001RBbecause ,3002,, under3003INunder the3004DTthe ...3005:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3006LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah3007NPYeah .3008SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]3009LOC[MR. ESTRADA] ...3010:... plurality3011NNplurality in3012INin ...3013:... in3014INin PriceWaterhouse3015NPPriceWaterhouse ,3016,, you3017PPyou know3018VVPknow ,3019,, the3020DTthe burden3021NNburden of3022INof persuasion3023NNpersuasion ,3024,, even3025RBeven if3026INif it3027PPit is3028VBZbe but-for3029JJbut-for ,3030,, shifts3031VVZshift to3032TOto the3033DTthe defendant3034NNdefendant .3035SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3036LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Right3037NPRight ,3038,, but3039CCbut it3040PPit 's3041VBZbe but-for3042NNbut-for by3043INby a3044DTa preponderance3045NNpreponderance .3046SENT. It3047PPit 's3048VBZbe a3049DTa question3050NNquestion of3051INof who3052WPwho has3053VHZhave that3054DTthat ...3055:... [MR. ESTRADA]3056LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Correct3057JJcorrect ,3058,, but3059CCbut I3060PPI ...3061:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3062LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...3063:... who3064WPwho has3065VHZhave that3066DTthat burden3067NNburden .3068SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]3069LOC[MR. ESTRADA] ...3070:... think3071VVthink what3072WPwhat 's3073VBZbe really3074RBreally going3075VVGgo on3076INon is3077VBZbe that3078IN/thatthat the3079DTthe Respondents3080NNSrespondent are3081VBPbe really3082RBreally arguing3083VVGargue PriceWaterhouse3084NPPriceWaterhouse ,3085,, as3086INas they3087PPthey did3088VVDdo expressly3089RBexpressly in3090INin both3091DTboth courts3092NNScourt below3093RBbelow .3094SENT. They3095PPthey 're3096VBPbe not3097RBnot actually3098RBactually citing3099VVGcite it3100PPit ,3101,, but3102CCbut they3103PPthey are3104VBPbe actually3105RBactually in3106INin a3107DTa way3108NNway sort3109NNsort of3110INof admitting3111VVGadmit that3112DTthat somebody3113NNsomebody has3114VHZhave ...3115:... may3116MDmay have3117VHhave a3118DTa but-for3119NNbut-for burden3120NNburden of3121INof persuasion3122NNpersuasion ,3123,, but3124CCbut they3125PPthey would3126MDwould like3127VVlike it3128PPit to3129TOto be3130VBbe us3131PPus .3132SENT. Now3133RBnow that3134DTthat is3135VBZbe also3136RBalso equally3137RBequally wrong3138JJwrong for3139INfor any3140DTany number3141NNnumber of3142INof different3143JJdifferent reasons3144NNSreason .3145SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3146LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah3147UHYeah ,3148,, well3149UHwell ,3150,, I3151PPI ...3152:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3153LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But3154CCbut if3155INif you3156PPyou 're3157VBPbe ...3158:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3159LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...3160:... do3161VVPdo n't3162RBn't know3163VVknow why3164WRBwhy the3165DTthe Ninth3166JJninth Circuit3167NNcircuit did3168VVDdo what3169WPwhat it3170PPit did3171VVDdo here3172RBhere and3173CCand I3174PPI do3175VVPdo n't3176RBn't know3177VVknow why3178WRBwhy the3179DTthe Respondents3180NNSrespondent have3181VHPhave argued3182VVNargue the3183DTthe case3184NNcase the3185DTthe way3186NNway they3187PPthey did3188VVDdo here3189RBhere .3190SENT. But3191CCbut ,3192,, if3193INif ...3194:... if3195INif you3196PPyou look3197VVPlook at3198INat the3199DTthe recitation3200NNrecitation of3201INof facts3202NNSfact on3203INon pages3204NNSpage 33205CD3 to3206TOto 53207CD5 of3208INof the3209DTthe Respondents3210NNSrespondent '3211POS' brief3212NNbrief ,3213,, could3214MDcould you3215PPyou say3216VVPsay that3217IN/thatthat those3218DTthose are3219VBPbe insufficient3220JJinsufficient to3221TOto raise3222VVraise in3223INin a3224DTa ...3225:... if3226INif pled3227VVNplead ,3228,, those3229DTthose would3230MDwould be3231VBbe insufficient3232JJinsufficient to3233TOto raise3234VVraise ...3235:... to3236TOto satisfy3237VVsatisfy the3238DTthe pleading3239VVGplead standard3240NNstandard even3241RBeven if3242INif the3243DTthe burden3244NNburden of3245INof persuasion3246NNpersuasion is3247VBZbe but-for3248NNbut-for causation3249NNcausation ?3250SENT? Comcast3251NPComcast told3252VVDtell Entertainment3253NPEntertainment Studios3254NPStudios its3255PP$its channels3256NNSchannel are3257VBPbe good3258JJgood enough3259RBenough .3260SENT. It3261PPit needed3262VVDneed to3263TOto get3264VVget support3265NNsupport in3266INin the3267DTthe field3268NNfield .3269SENT. It3270PPit turned3271VVDturn out3272RPout that3273IN/thatthat ,3274,, according3275VVGaccord to3276TOto them3277PPthem ,3278,, that3279WDTthat ...3280:... that3281IN/thatthat it3282PPit did3283VVDdo n't3284RBn't matter3285VVmatter whether3286INwhether they3287PPthey got3288VVDget support3289NNsupport in3290INin the3291DTthe field3292NNfield and3293CCand so3294RBso forth3295RBforth .3296SENT. There3297EXthere is3298VBZbe a3299DTa recitation3300NNrecitation of3301INof facts3302NNSfact .3303SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]3304LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Yes3305NPYes ,3306,, we3307PPwe do3308VVPdo say3309VVsay that3310IN/thatthat that3311DTthat 's3312VBZbe enough3313JJenough .3314SENT. And3315CCand ...3316:... and3317CCand we3318PPwe have3319VHPhave a3320DTa number3321NNnumber of3322INof reasons3323NNSreason for3324INfor that3325DTthat .3326SENT. Some3327DTsome of3328INof what3329WPwhat they3330PPthey say3331VVPsay is3332VBZbe actually3333RBactually not3334RBnot in3335INin the3336DTthe complaint3337NNcomplaint and3338CCand has3339VHZhave not3340RBnot been3341VBNbe in3342INin the3343DTthe last3344JJlast two3345CDtwo complaints3346NNScomplaint .3347SENT. That3348DTthat 's3349VBZbe point3350NNpoint one3351CDone .3352SENT. Some3353DTsome of3354INof what3355WPwhat they3356PPthey say3357VVPsay about3358RBabout ,3359,, you3360PPyou know3361VVPknow ,3362,, the3363DTthe demand3364NNdemand for3365INfor their3366PP$their services3367NNSservice is3368VBZbe something3369NNsomething that3370IN/thatthat they3371PPthey were3372VBDbe able3373JJable to3374TOto allege3375VVallege in3376INin their3377PP$their third3378JJthird and3379CCand last3380JJlast complaint3381NNcomplaint ,3382,, you3383PPyou know3384VVPknow ,3385,, all3386RBall of3387INof the3388DTthe notion3389NNnotion about3390INabout how3391WRBhow much3392JJmuch they3393PPthey 're3394VBPbe carried3395VVNcarry and3396CCand how3397WRBhow many3398JJmany customers3399NNScustomer ,3400,, you3401PPyou know3402VVPknow ,3403,, they3404PPthey reach3405VVPreach ,3406,, is3407VBZbe driven3408VVNdrive entirely3409RBentirely by3410INby the3411DTthe fact3412NNfact that3413IN/thatthat they3414PPthey are3415VBPbe currently3416RBcurrently ...3417:... may3418MDmay I3419PPI finish3420VVfinish ,3421,, Mr3422NPMr .3423SENT. Chief3424NPChief Justice3425NPJustice ?3426SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3427LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Sure3428NPSure .3429SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]3430LOC[MR. ESTRADA] ...3431:... that3432IN/thatthat they3433PPthey 're3434VBPbe currently3435RBcurrently carried3436VVNcarry by3437INby AT3438INat &3439CC& T3440NNT and3441CCand DirecTV3442NPDirecTV ,3443,, which3444WDTwhich is3445VBZbe ...3446:... which3447WDTwhich are3448VBPbe now3449RBnow one3450CDone company3451NNcompany .3452SENT. Now3453RBnow it3454PPit should3455MDshould be3456VBbe perfectly3457RBperfectly clear3458JJclear to3459TOto everybody3460NNeverybody in3461INin this3462DTthis courtroom3463NNcourtroom that3464IN/thatthat that3465DTthat 's3466VBZbe an3467DTan allegation3468NNallegation that3469IN/thatthat they3470PPthey were3471VBDbe only3472RBonly able3473JJable to3474TOto make3475VVmake in3476INin the3477DTthe third3478JJthird complaint3479NNcomplaint in3480INin this3481DTthis case3482NNcase .3483SENT. It3484PPit was3485VBDbe not3486RBnot in3487INin the3488DTthe first3489JJfirst or3490CCor the3491DTthe second3492JJsecond complaint3493NNcomplaint .3494SENT. And3495CCand the3496DTthe reason3497NNreason for3498INfor that3499WDTthat is3500VBZbe ,3501,, during3502INduring the3503DTthe pendency3504NNpendency of3505INof the3506DTthe entire3507JJentire litigation3508NNlitigation in3509INin this3510DTthis case3511NNcase ,3512,, they3513PPthey were3514VBDbe suing3515VVGsue AT3516INat &3517CC& T3518NNT and3519CCand DirecTV3520NPDirecTV as3521INas they3522PPthey were3523VBDbe suing3524VVGsue us3525PPus .3526SENT. And3527CCand that3528DTthat ...3529:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3530LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank3531VVthank you3532PPyou ,3533,, counsel3534NNcounsel .3535SENT. [MR. ESTRADA]3536LOC[MR. ESTRADA] Thank3537VVthank you3538PPyou .3539SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3540LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Ms3541NNMs .3542SENT. Ratner3543NPRatner .3544SENT.