[MR. LIN]27LOC[MR. LIN] Mr28NPMr .29SENT. Chief30NPChief Justice31NPJustice ,32,, and33CCand may34MDmay it35PPit please36VVplease the37DTthe Court38NPCourt :39:: This40DTthis case41NNcase is42VBZbe not43RBnot about44RBabout whether45INwhether the46DTthe releases47NNSrelease from48INfrom Maui49NPMaui 's50POS's underground51JJunderground injection52NNinjection wells53NNSwell should54MDshould be55VBbe regulated56VVNregulate at57INat all58DTall but59CCbut how60WRBhow .61SENT. They62PPthey are63VBPbe already64RBalready regulated65VVNregulate under66INunder several67JJseveral existing68JJexisting state69NNstate and70CCand federal71JJfederal environmental72JJenvironmental programs73NNSprogram ,74,, including75VVGinclude the76DTthe Clean77NPClean Water78NPWater Act79NPAct 's80POS's nonpoint81JJnonpoint source82NNsource program83NNprogram .84SENT. But85CCbut is86VBZbe a87DTa Clean88NPClean Water89NPWater Act90NPAct point91NNpoint source92NNsource permit93NNpermit also94RBalso required95VVNrequire ?96SENT? The97DTthe question98NNquestion is99VBZbe where100WRBwhere the101DTthe line102NNline falls103VVZfall between104INbetween the105DTthe Clean106NPClean Water107NPWater Act108NPAct 's109POS's federal110JJfederal point111NNpoint source112NNsource program113NNprogram and114CCand its115PP$its state116NNstate law117NNlaw nonpoint118NNnonpoint source119NNsource program120NNprogram .121SENT. And122CCand the123DTthe answer124NNanswer is125VBZbe in126INin the127DTthe text128NNtext .129SENT. The130DTthe text131NNtext defines132VVZdefine a133DTa point134NNpoint source135NNsource as136INas a137DTa discernible138JJdiscernible ,139,, confined140VVNconfine ,141,, and142CCand discrete143JJdiscrete conveyance144NNconveyance ,145,, and146CCand it147PPit thereby148RBthereby makes149VVZmake clear150JJclear that151IN/thatthat the152DTthe trigger153NNtrigger for154INfor point155NNpoint source156NNsource permitting157VVGpermit is158VBZbe not159RBnot where160WRBwhere a161DTa pollutant162NNpollutant comes163VVZcome from164INfrom but165CCbut how166WRBhow it167PPit reaches168VVZreach navigable169JJnavigable waters170NNSwater .171SENT. An172DTan NPDES173NPNPDES permit174NNpermit is175VBZbe thus176RBthus required177VVNrequire only178RBonly when179WRBwhen a180DTa point181NNpoint source182NNsource or183CCor series184NNseries of185INof point186NNpoint sources187NNSsource is188VBZbe the189DTthe means190NNmeans of191INof delivering192VVGdeliver pollutants193NNSpollutant to194TOto navigable195JJnavigable waters196NNSwater .197SENT. This198DTthis understanding199NNunderstanding is200VBZbe confirmed201VVNconfirm by202INby the203DTthe fact204NNfact that205IN/thatthat it206PPit offers207VVZoffer the208DTthe predictability209NNpredictability one210PPone would211MDwould expect212VVexpect in213INin a214DTa permitting215VVGpermit regime216NNregime ,217,, where218WRBwhere regulated219JJregulated entities220NNSentity need221VVPneed to222TOto know223VVknow beforehand224RBbeforehand whether225INwhether a226DTa permit227NNpermit is228VBZbe required229VVNrequire and230CCand where231WRBwhere ,232,, in233INin this234DTthis particular235JJparticular statute236NNstatute ,237,, penalties238NNSpenalty for239INfor noncompliance240NNnoncompliance are241VBPbe so242RBso severe243JJsevere .244SENT. It245PPit also246RBalso maintains247VVZmaintain an248DTan important249JJimportant role250NNrole for251INfor state252NNstate nonpoint253NNnonpoint source254NNsource programs255NNSprogram under256INunder the257DTthe Clean258NPClean Water259NPWater Act260NPAct .261SENT. Respondents262NNSrespondent ,263,, however264RBhowever ,265,, would266MDwould rewrite267VVrewrite the268DTthe statute269NNstatute to270TOto all271DTall but272CCbut eviscerate273VVeviscerate the274DTthe line275NNline between276INbetween point277NNpoint and278CCand nonpoint279NNnonpoint source280NNsource pollution281NNpollution and282CCand radically283RBradically change284VVchange the285DTthe status286FWstatus quo287FWquo .288SENT. In289INin this290DTthis case291NNcase ,292,, they293PPthey would294MDwould impose295VVimpose a296DTa new297JJnew federal298JJfederal permit299NNpermit on300INon wells301NNSwell that302WDTthat have303VHPhave operated304VVNoperate the305DTthe same306JJsame way307NNway for308INfor 40309CD@card@ years310NNSyear ,311,, during312INduring which313WDTwhich time314NNtime EPA315NPEPA expressly316RBexpressly rejected317VVDreject calls318NNScall for319INfor NPDES320NPNPDES permitting321VVGpermit .322SENT. There323EXthere are324VBPbe more325JJRmore than326INthan 500,000327CD@card@ similar328JJsimilar underground329JJunderground injection330NNinjection wells331NNSwell in332INin the333DTthe country334NNcountry and335CCand nearly336RBnearly 6,000337CD@card@ in338INin Hawaii339NNSHawaii alone340RBalone .341SENT. This342DTthis expansion343NNexpansion of344INof the345DTthe nonpoint346JJnonpoint source347NNsource program348NNprogram and349CCand diminution350NNdiminution of351INof the352DTthe ...353:... excuse354VVexcuse me355PPme ,356,, this357DTthis expansion358NNexpansion of359INof the360DTthe point361NNpoint source362NNsource program363NNprogram and364CCand diminution365NNdiminution of366INof the367DTthe nonpoint368JJnonpoint source369NNsource program370NNprogram is371VBZbe not372RBnot warranted373VVNwarrant by374INby the375DTthe text376NNtext ,377,, as378INas is379VBZbe underscored380VVNunderscore by381INby the382DTthe fact383NNfact that384IN/thatthat Respondents385NNSrespondent now386RBnow offer387VVPoffer the388DTthe fourth389JJfourth different390JJdifferent reading391NNreading of392INof the393DTthe statute394NNstatute to395TOto support396VVsupport liability397NNliability in398INin this399DTthis case400NNcase .401SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]402LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Counsel403NPCounsel ,404,, I405PPI ...406:... I407PPI want408VVPwant to409TOto make410VVmake sure411JJsure I412PPI understand413VVPunderstand what414WPwhat your415PP$your test416NNtest is417VBZbe .418SENT. You419PPyou say420VVPsay that421IN/thatthat the422DTthe ...423:... it424PPit has425VHZhave to426TOto be427VBbe the428DTthe means429NNmeans ...430:... I431PPI guess432VVPguess the433DTthe point434NNpoint source435NNsource has436VHZhave to437TOto be438VBbe the439DTthe means440NNmeans of441INof conveyance442NNconveyance to443TOto the444DTthe jurisdictional445JJjurisdictional water446NNwater ?447SENT? [MR. LIN]448LOC[MR. LIN] Yes449NPYes ,450,, Your451PP$your Honor452NPHonor .453SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]454LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] What455WPWhat does456VVZdo that457DTthat mean458NNmean ?459SENT? That460DTthat if461INif it462PPit ever463RBever runs464VVZrun into465INinto groundwater466NNgroundwater ,467,, it468PPit is469VBZbe not470RBnot the471DTthe means472NNmeans of473INof conveyance474NNconveyance but475CCbut the476DTthe groundwater477NNgroundwater is478VBZbe ?479SENT? [MR. LIN]480LOC[MR. LIN] That481DTthat 's482VBZbe correct483JJcorrect ,484,, Your485PP$your Honor486NPHonor .487SENT. The488DTthe ...489:... what490WPwhat we491PPwe mean492VVPmean by493INby "494``" means495NNSmean of496INof conveyance497NNconveyance "498``" is499VBZbe at500INat the501DTthe point502NNpoint source503NNsource .504SENT. The505DTthe discernible506JJdiscernible ,507,, confined508VVNconfine ,509,, and510CCand discrete511JJdiscrete conveyance512NNconveyance must513MDmust carry514VVcarry and515CCand deliver516VVdeliver the517DTthe pollutant518NNpollutant to519TOto the520DTthe navigable521JJnavigable waters522NNSwater .523SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]524LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] So525INso the526DTthe ...527:... so528RBso any529DTany intervention530NNintervention of531INof groundwater532NNgroundwater removes533VVZremove the534DTthe jurisdiction535NNjurisdiction of536INof the537DTthe point538NNpoint source539NNsource program540NNprogram ?541SENT? [MR. LIN]542LOC[MR. LIN] That543DTthat 's544VBZbe right545JJright ,546,, because547INbecause groundwater548NNgroundwater is549VBZbe a550DTa nonpoint551JJnonpoint source552NNsource .553SENT. And554CCand if555INif the556DTthe groundwater557NNgroundwater is558VBZbe ...559:... in560INin this561DTthis case562NNcase is563VBZbe diffusely564RBdiffusely flowing565VVGflow through566INthrough the567DTthe ground568NNground and569CCand that570DTthat 's571VBZbe what572WPwhat carries573VVZcarry the574DTthe pollutants575NNSpollutant to576TOto the577DTthe navigable578JJnavigable waters579NNSwater ...580:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]581LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But582CCbut the583DTthe well584NNwell ...585:... the586DTthe well587RBwell is588VBZbe the589DTthe source590NNsource of591INof the592DTthe pollution593NNpollution ,594,, so595RBso it596PPit would597MDwould seem598VVseem that599IN/thatthat that600WDTthat should601MDshould be602VBbe the603DTthe object604NNobject of605INof regulation606NNregulation .607SENT. And608CCand it609PPit is610VBZbe a611DTa conveyance612NNconveyance .613SENT. It614PPit is615VBZbe one616CDone of617INof two618CDtwo conveyances619NNSconveyance in620INin this621DTthis case622NNcase .623SENT. But624CCbut it625PPit is626VBZbe a627DTa means628NNmeans of629INof delivery630NNdelivery ,631,, although632INalthough the633DTthe groundwater634NNgroundwater is635VBZbe also636RBalso a637DTa means638NNmeans of639INof delivery640NNdelivery .641SENT. [MR. LIN]642LOC[MR. LIN] Yes643NPYes ,644,, Your645PP$your Honor646NPHonor ,647,, the648DTthe wells649NNSwell are650VBPbe a651DTa point652NNpoint source653NNsource ,654,, and655CCand we656PPwe do657VVPdo n't658RBn't dispute659VVdispute that660IN/thatthat it661PPit is662VBZbe a663DTa discernible664JJdiscernible ,665,, confined666VVNconfine ,667,, and668CCand discrete669JJdiscrete conveyance670NNconveyance ,671,, but672CCbut not673RBnot all674DTall point675NNpoint sources676NNSsource require677VVPrequire point678NNpoint source679NNsource permits680NNSpermit .681SENT. If682INif that683DTthat were684VBDbe the685DTthe case686NNcase ,687,, as688INas Respondents689NNSrespondent suggest690VVPsuggest ,691,, there692EXthere would693MDwould be694VBbe very695RBvery ,696,, very697RBvery little698RBlittle ,699,, if700INif anything701NNanything ,702,, left703VVNleave for704INfor nonpoint705JJnonpoint source706NNsource regulation707NNregulation .708SENT. And709CCand so710INso our711PP$our contention712NNcontention ,713,, Your714PP$your Honor715NPHonor ,716,, is717VBZbe that718IN/thatthat if719INif you720PPyou 're721VBPbe reading722VVGread the723DTthe statutory724JJstatutory text725NNtext and726CCand considering727VVGconsider the728DTthe words729NNSword "730''" addition731NNaddition from732INfrom any733DTany point734NNpoint source735NNsource ,736,, "737''" that738WDTthat that739RBthat contemplates740VVZcontemplate that741IN/thatthat the742DTthe point743NNpoint source744NNsource must745MDmust be746VBbe the747DTthe thing748NNthing or749CCor point750NNpoint sources751NNSsource must752MDmust together753RBtogether ...754:... as755INas one756CDone functional757JJfunctional point758NNpoint source759NNsource must760MDmust be761VBbe what762WPwhat actually763RBactually delivers764VVZdeliver the765DTthe pollutants766NNSpollutant to767TOto the768DTthe ...769:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]770LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] So771RBso if772INif ...773:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]774LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I775PPI guess776VVPguess I777PPI ...778:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]779LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] So780RBso ,781,, if782INif you783PPyou have784VHPhave a785DTa point786NNpoint source787NNsource under788INunder pressure789NNpressure that790WDTthat ,791,, you792PPyou know793VVPknow ,794,, just795RBjust ...796:... that797WDTthat does798VVZdo n't799RBn't seep800VVseep up801RPup ,802,, kind803NNkind of804INof shoots805NNSshoot the806DTthe pollutants807NNSpollutant out808RPout ,809,, and810CCand there811RBthere ,812,, you813PPyou know814VVPknow ,815,, that816DTthat motion817NNmotion gets818VVZget to819TOto the820DTthe jurisdictional821JJjurisdictional water822NNwater ,823,, would824MDwould that825RBthat be826VBbe covered827VVNcover ?828SENT? Would829MDwould that830RBthat be831VBbe pollution832NNpollution of833INof the834DTthe jurisdictional835JJjurisdictional water836NNwater by837INby that838DTthat point839NNpoint source840NNsource ?841SENT? [MR. LIN]842LOC[MR. LIN] It843PPit ...844:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]845LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I846PPI 'm847VBPbe envisioning848VVGenvision two849CDtwo different850JJdifferent things851NNSthing ,852,, one853CDone where854WRBwhere it855PPit 's856VBZbe ...857:... the858DTthe pollutant859NNpollutant is860VBZbe put861VVNput in862INin the863DTthe groundwater864NNgroundwater and865CCand then866RBthen gradually867RBgradually ,868,, you869PPyou know870VVPknow ,871,, seeps872NNSseep into873INinto the874DTthe ...875:... into876INinto the877DTthe ocean878NNocean ,879,, and880CCand one881CDone where882WRBwhere it883PPit 's884POS's sort885NNsort of886INof forcefully887RBforcefully expelled888VVNexpel ,889,, although890INalthough it891PPit goes892VVZgo through893INthrough the894DTthe groundwater895NNgroundwater .896SENT. [MR. LIN]897LOC[MR. LIN] Your898PP$your Honor899NPHonor ,900,, I901PPI think902VVPthink if903INif it904PPit still905RBstill goes906VVZgo through907INthrough the908DTthe groundwater909NNgroundwater ,910,, the911DTthe ...912:... the913DTthe question914NNquestion under915INunder the916DTthe statute917NNstatute is918VBZbe what919WPwhat is920VBZbe the921DTthe ...922:... what923WPwhat is924VBZbe the925DTthe conveyance926NNconveyance ,927,, what928WPwhat is929VBZbe the930DTthe thing931NNthing that932WDTthat carries933VVZcarry and934CCand delivers935VVZdeliver the936DTthe pollutants937NNSpollutant .938SENT. I939PPI think940VVPthink even941RBeven if942INif it943PPit 's944VBZbe forcefully945RBforcefully put946VVNput into947INinto the948DTthe groundwater949NNgroundwater ,950,, the951DTthe groundwater952NNgroundwater is953VBZbe what954WPwhat 's955VBZbe carrying956VVGcarry it957PPit .958SENT. Now959RBnow I960PPI can961MDcan imagine962VVimagine ,963,, Your964PP$your Honor965NPHonor ,966,, scenarios967NNSscenario as968INas we969PPwe discuss970VVPdiscuss in971INin our972PP$our brief973NNbrief where974WRBwhere you975PPyou 've976VHPhave got977VVNget ,978,, say979VVPsay ,980,, a981DTa point982NNpoint source983NNsource ,984,, a985DTa pipe986NNpipe that987WDTthat 's988VBZbe very989RBvery close990JJclose to991TOto the992DTthe water993NNwater 's994POS's edge995NNedge and996CCand ...997:... and998CCand expels999VVZexpel the1000DTthe pollutants1001NNSpollutant into1002INinto the1003DTthe water1004NNwater .1005SENT. The1006DTthe thing1007NNthing that1008WDTthat 's1009VBZbe carrying1010VVGcarry it1011PPit ,1012,, the1013DTthe last1014JJlast conveyance1015NNconveyance in1016INin that1017DTthat factual1018JJfactual scenario1019NNscenario ,1020,, would1021MDwould be1022VBbe the1023DTthe pipe1024NNpipe .1025SENT. The1026DTthe pipe1027NNpipe is1028VBZbe a1029DTa discernible1030JJdiscernible ,1031,, confined1032VVNconfine ,1033,, and1034CCand discrete1035JJdiscrete ...1036:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1037LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So1038INso what1039WPwhat happens1040VVZhappen if1041INif you1042PPyou just1043RBjust take1044VVPtake the1045DTthe pipe1046NNpipe and1047CCand you1048PPyou decide1049VVPdecide what1050WPwhat we1051PPwe 'll1052MDwill do1053VVdo is1054VBZbe we1055PPwe 're1056VBPbe going1057VVGgo to1058TOto end1059VVend the1060DTthe pipe1061NNpipe 351062CD@card@ feet1063NNSfoot from1064INfrom the1065DTthe river1066NNriver or1067CCor from1068INfrom the1069DTthe ocean1070NNocean or1071CCor something1072NNsomething ?1073SENT? Now1074RBnow you1075PPyou know1076VVPknow perfectly1077RBperfectly well1078RBwell that1079IN/thatthat it1080PPit 'll1081MDwill drip1082VVdrip down1083RPdown into1084INinto the1085DTthe ground1086NNground and1087CCand it1088PPit 'll1089MDwill be1090VBbe carried1091VVNcarry out1092RPout into1093INinto the1094DTthe navigable1095JJnavigable water1096NNwater .1097SENT. In1098INin your1099PP$your theory1100NNtheory ,1101,, that1102WDTthat is1103VBZbe n't1104RBn't covered1105VVNcover ?1106SENT? [MR. LIN]1107LOC[MR. LIN] In1108INin that1109DTthat scenario1110NNscenario ,1111,, Your1112PP$your Honor1113NPHonor ,1114,, the1115DTthe land1116NNland is1117VBZbe the1118DTthe conveyance1119NNconveyance and1120CCand that1121DTthat pollution1122NNpollution would1123MDwould be1124VBbe regulated1125VVNregulate under1126INunder the1127DTthe nonpoint1128JJnonpoint source1129NNsource ...1130:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1131LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well1132UHWell ,1133,, no1134RBno ,1135,, the1136DTthe conveyance1137NNconveyance is1138VBZbe the1139DTthe groundwater1140NNgroundwater that1141WDTthat is1142VBZbe underneath1143INunderneath the1144DTthe land1145NNland into1146INinto which1147WDTwhich the1148DTthe pipe1149NNpipe drips1150VVZdrip the1151DTthe pollutant1152NNpollutant .1153SENT. [MR. LIN]1154LOC[MR. LIN] Yes1155NPYes ,1156,, Your1157PP$your Honor1158NPHonor .1159SENT. If1160INif it1161PPit seeps1162VVZseep into1163INinto the1164DTthe ground1165NNground ...1166:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1167LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah1168NPYeah .1169SENT. [MR. LIN]1170LOC[MR. LIN] ...1171:... then1172RBthen the1173DTthe groundwater1174NNgroundwater is1175VBZbe what1176WPwhat 's1177VBZbe carrying1178VVGcarry and1179CCand delivering1180VVGdeliver the1181DTthe pollutants1182NNSpollutant ...1183:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1184LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah1185NPYeah .1186SENT. [MR. LIN]1187LOC[MR. LIN] ...1188:... and1189CCand that1190DTthat scenario1191NNscenario would1192MDwould be1193VBbe regulated1194VVNregulate under1195INunder the1196DTthe nonpoint1197JJnonpoint source1198NNsource program1199NNprogram .1200SENT. The1201DTthe Congress1202NPCongress ...1203:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1204LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All1205DTall right1206NNright ,1207,, but1208CCbut then1209RBthen what1210WPwhat we1211PPwe have1212VHPhave is1213VBZbe ,1214,, I1215PPI take1216VVPtake it1217PPit ,1218,, an1219DTan absolute1220JJabsolute road1221NNroad map1222NNmap for1223INfor people1224NNSpeople who1225WPwho want1226VVPwant to1227TOto avoid1228VVavoid the1229DTthe point1230NNpoint source1231NNsource regulation1232NNregulation .1233SENT. All1234RBall we1235PPwe do1236VVPdo is1237VBZbe we1238PPwe just1239RBjust cut1240VVDcut off1241RPoff the1242DTthe ...1243:... cut1244VVcut off1245RPoff the1246DTthe ...1247:... the1248DTthe pipes1249NNSpipe or1250CCor whatever1251WDTwhatever ,1252,, five1253CDfive feet1254NNSfoot from1255INfrom the1256DTthe ocean1257NNocean or1258CCor five1259CDfive feet1260NNSfoot from1261INfrom the1262DTthe navigable1263JJnavigable stream1264NNstream or1265CCor five1266CDfive feet1267NNSfoot from1268INfrom ...1269:... you1270PPyou see1271VVPsee ?1272SENT? You1273PPyou understand1274VVPunderstand the1275DTthe problem1276NNproblem .1277SENT. What1278WPWhat I1279PPI 'm1280VBPbe looking1281VVGlook for1282INfor in1283INin this1284DTthis case1285NNcase is1286VBZbe what1287WPwhat 's1288VBZbe a1289DTa standard1290NNstandard that1291WDTthat will1292MDwill prevent1293VVprevent evasion1294NNevasion ,1295,, which1296WDTwhich I1297PPI 'm1298VBPbe not1299RBnot ...1300:... I1301PPI do1302VVPdo n't1303RBn't see1304VVsee how1305WRBhow yours1306PP$yours prevents1307VVZprevent evasion1308NNevasion .1309SENT. [MR. LIN]1310LOC[MR. LIN] Your1311PP$your Honor1312NPHonor ...1313:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1314LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And1315CCand at1316INat the1317DTthe same1318JJsame time1319NNtime does1320VVZdo n't1321RBn't turn1322VVturn everything1323NNeverything into1324INinto ...1325:... undercut1326VVundercut the1327DTthe groundwater1328NNgroundwater program1329NNprogram .1330SENT. [MR. LIN]1331LOC[MR. LIN] If1332INif I1333PPI may1334MDmay ,1335,, I1336PPI would1337MDwould quarrel1338VVquarrel with1339INwith your1340PP$your use1341NNuse of1342INof the1343DTthe word1344NNword "1345``" evasion1346NNevasion ,1347,, "1348``" because1349INbecause I1350PPI think1351VVPthink what1352WPwhat 's1353VBZbe important1354JJimportant to1355TOto remember1356VVremember is1357VBZbe it1358PPit 's1359VBZbe a1360DTa comprehensive1361JJcomprehensive scheme1362NNscheme .1363SENT. Congress1364NPCongress did1365VVDdo n't1366RBn't design1367VVdesign a1368DTa ...1369:... it1370PPit did1371VVDdo n't1372RBn't just1373RBjust put1374VVput the1375DTthe point1376NNpoint source1377NNsource program1378NNprogram out1379INout into1380INinto the1381DTthe world1382NNworld on1383INon a1384DTa hope1385NNhope and1386CCand a1387DTa prayer1388NNprayer that1389IN/thatthat there1390EXthere would1391MDwould be1392VBbe some1393DTsome other1394JJother regulatory1395JJregulatory program1396NNprogram that1397WDTthat would1398MDwould cover1399VVcover the1400DTthe other1401JJother scenarios1402NNSscenario ,1403,, including1404VVGinclude the1405DTthe one1406CDone that1407IN/thatthat you1408PPyou 're1409VBPbe talking1410VVGtalk about1411RBabout ,1412,, Justice1413NPJustice Breyer1414NPBreyer .1415SENT. There1416RBthere ...1417:... there1418EXthere is1419VBZbe a1420DTa nonpoint1421JJnonpoint source1422NNsource program1423NNprogram .1424SENT. There1425EXthere are1426VBPbe laws1427NNSlaw ,1428,, including1429VVGinclude in1430INin Hawaii1431NPHawaii ,1432,, that1433WDTthat would1434MDwould explicitly1435RBexplicitly prohibit1436VVprohibit the1437DTthe scenario1438NNscenario that1439IN/thatthat you1440PPyou 're1441VBPbe talking1442VVGtalk about1443RBabout .1444SENT. Hawaii1445NPHawaii Code1446NPCode 354D1447JJ354D ...1448:... three1449CDthree ...1450:... 354D-501451JJ354D-50 ,1452,, it1453PPit says1454VVZsay that1455IN/thatthat you1456PPyou can1457MDcan 't1458RB't alter1459VValter the1460DTthe way1461NNway your1462PP$your ...1463:... your1464PP$your ...1465:... your1466PP$your discharge1467NNdischarge system1468NNsystem is1469VBZbe structured1470VVNstructure without1471INwithout permission1472NNpermission from1473INfrom the1474DTthe director1475NNdirector of1476INof ...1477:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1478LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But1479CCbut Congress1480NPCongress ...1481:... [MR. LIN]1482LOC[MR. LIN] ...1483:... the1484DTthe Hawaii1485NPHawaii ...1486:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1487LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Excuse1488NNexcuse me1489PPme ,1490,, Mr1491NPMr .1492SENT. Lin1493NPLin .1494SENT. Congress1495NPCongress wanted1496VVDwant the1497DTthe point1498NNpoint source1499NNsource program1500NNprogram to1501TOto do1502VVdo something1503NNsomething .1504SENT. The1505DTthe Congress1506NPCongress wanted1507VVDwant point1508NNpoint sources1509NNSsource that1510WDTthat were1511VBDbe discharging1512VVGdischarge pollutants1513NNSpollutant to1514TOto receive1515VVreceive a1516DTa permit1517NNpermit before1518INbefore they1519PPthey did1520VVDdo so1521RBso .1522SENT. And1523CCand I1524PPI think1525VVPthink what1526WPwhat Justice1527NPJustice Breyer1528NPBreyer is1529VBZbe saying1530VVGsay is1531VBZbe that1532IN/thatthat nobody1533NNnobody would1534MDwould ever1535RBever have1536VHhave to1537TOto go1538VVgo through1539INthrough that1540DTthat process1541NNprocess of1542INof getting1543VVGget a1544DTa permit1545NNpermit if1546INif they1547PPthey knew1548VVDknow that1549IN/thatthat they1550PPthey could1551MDcould do1552VVdo something1553NNsomething like1554INlike what1555WPwhat Justice1556NPJustice Breyer1557NPBreyer was1558VBDbe suggesting1559VVGsuggest ,1560,, just1561RBjust stop1562VVstop the1563DTthe pipe1564NNpipe five1565CDfive feet1566NNSfoot before1567INbefore the1568DTthe ocean1569NNocean .1570SENT. [MR. LIN]1571LOC[MR. LIN] And1572CCand I1573PPI think1574VVPthink ,1575,, Your1576PP$your Honor1577NPHonor ,1578,, the1579DTthe key1580NNkey there1581RBthere is1582VBZbe that1583IN/thatthat they1584PPthey knew1585VVDknow they1586PPthey could1587MDcould .1588SENT. And1589CCand "1590``" could1591MDcould "1592''" ...1593:... "1594``" could1595MDcould "1596``" is1597VBZbe the1598DTthe operative1599JJoperative word1600NNword because1601INbecause the1602DTthe state1603NNstate law1604NNlaw regulations1605NNSregulation that1606WDTthat are1607VBPbe in1608INin place1609NNplace are1610VBPbe significant1611JJsignificant .1612SENT. And1613CCand so1614RBso it1615PPit 's1616VBZbe a1617DTa ...1618:... it1619PPit 's1620VBZbe a1621DTa ...1622:... yes1623UHyes ,1624,, Your1625PP$your Honor1626NPHonor ,1627,, there1628EXthere 's1629VBZbe a1630DTa clear1631JJclear choice1632NNchoice that1633IN/thatthat our1634PP$our reading1635NNreading of1636INof the1637DTthe statute1638NNstatute offers1639NNSoffer ,1640,, which1641WDTwhich is1642VBZbe ,1643,, do1644VVPdo you1645PPyou want1646VVPwant to1647TOto be1648VBbe subject1649JJsubject to1650TOto permitting1651VVGpermit or1652CCor subject1653JJsubject to1654TOto state1655NNstate law1656NNlaw regulation1657NNregulation ?1658SENT? And1659CCand state1660NNstate law1661NNlaw regulation1662NNregulation in1663INin many1664JJmany ,1665,, many1666JJmany states1667NNSstate ,1668,, including1669VVGinclude Hawaii1670NPHawaii ,1671,, does1672VVZdo n't1673RBn't allow1674VVallow the1675DTthe scenario1676NNscenario that1677WDTthat ...1678:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1679LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But1680CCbut that1681DTthat 's1682VBZbe the1683DTthe problem1684NNproblem ...1685:... [MR. LIN]1686LOC[MR. LIN] ...1687:... Justice1688NPJustice Breyer1689NPBreyer is1690VBZbe talking1691VVGtalk about1692RBabout .1693SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1694LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1695:... but1696CCbut that1697DTthat 's1698VBZbe the1699DTthe problem1700NNproblem ,1701,, is1702VBZbe n't1703RBn't it1704PPit ?1705SENT? Because1706INbecause it1707PPit presumes1708VVZpresume the1709DTthe state1710NNstate will1711MDwill regulate1712VVregulate ,1713,, and1714CCand some1715DTsome states1716NNSstate do1717VVPdo n't1718RBn't .1719SENT. So1720RBso what1721WPwhat you1722PPyou 're1723VBPbe doing1724VVGdo is1725VBZbe cutting1726VVGcut off1727RPoff permitting1728VVGpermit because1729INbecause you1730PPyou 're1731VBPbe limiting1732VVGlimit the1733DTthe word1734NNword "1735''" to1736TOto "1737''" ...1738:... or1739CCor ...1740:... or1741CCor morphing1742VVGmorphing the1743DTthe word1744NNword "1745''" to1746TOto navigable1747JJnavigable waters1748NNSwater "1749''" and1750CCand changing1751VVGchange it1752PPit into1753INinto "1754''" into1755INinto navigable1756JJnavigable waters1757NNSwater .1758SENT. "1759''" And1760CCand that1761DTthat 's1762VBZbe what1763WPwhat Justice1764NPJustice Scalia1765NPScalia looked1766VVDlook at1767INat was1768VBDbe the1769DTthe plain1770JJplain text1771NNtext and1772CCand said1773VVDsay "1774``" to1775TOto "1776''" is1777VBZbe different1778JJdifferent than1779INthan "1780''" into1781INinto .1782SENT. "1783''" And1784CCand so1785RBso ,1786,, for1787INfor us1788PPus ,1789,, the1790DTthe question1791NNquestion ,1792,, I1793PPI believe1794VVPbelieve ,1795,, is1796VBZbe ,1797,, do1798VVdo you1799PPyou read1800VVread the1801DTthe plain1802JJplain language1803NNlanguage and1804CCand does1805VVZdo it1806PPit say1807VVPsay from1808INfrom a1809DTa point1810NNpoint source1811NNsource ,1812,, it1813PPit 's1814VBZbe the1815DTthe well1816RBwell ,1817,, to1818TOto the1819DTthe ocean1820NNocean ?1821SENT? It1822PPit can1823MDcan be1824VBbe traced1825VVNtrace ,1826,, yes1827UHyes .1828SENT. I1829PPI think1830VVPthink the1831DTthe words1832NNSword are1833VBPbe pretty1834RBpretty clear1835JJclear .1836SENT. [MR. LIN]1837LOC[MR. LIN] A1838DTa few1839JJfew ...1840:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1841LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] To1842TOTo accept1843VVaccept yours1844PP$yours ,1845,, you1846PPyou have1847VHPhave to1848TOto put1849VVput in1850INin the1851DTthe word1852NNword "1853''" into1854INinto .1855SENT. "1856''" [MR. LIN]1857LOC[MR. LIN] A1858DTa few1859JJfew answers1860NNSanswer to1861TOto that1862DTthat ,1863,, Your1864PP$your Honor1865NPHonor .1866SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1867LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] To1868NPTo ...1869:... to1870TOto ...1871:... to1872TOto accept1873VVaccept your1874PP$your meaning1875NNmeaning ,1876,, we1877PPwe have1878VHPhave to1879TOto transform1880VVtransform "1881''" in1882INin "1883''" into1884INinto "1885''" into1886INinto .1887SENT. "1888''" [MR. LIN]1889LOC[MR. LIN] If1890INif I1891PPI may1892MDmay ,1893,, let1894VVlet me1895PPme turn1896VVturn first1897JJfirst to1898TOto the1899DTthe question1900NNquestion of1901INof states1902NNSstate and1903CCand whether1904INwhether states1905NNSstate would1906MDwould regulate1907VVregulate .1908SENT. So1909RBso I1910PPI think1911VVPthink the1912DTthe answer1913NNanswer to1914TOto your1915PP$your question1916NNquestion is1917VBZbe ,1918,, could1919MDcould there1920RBthere ...1921:... could1922MDcould there1923RBthere be1924VBbe states1925NNSstate that1926WDTthat would1927MDwould simply1928RBsimply allow1929VVallow this1930DTthis to1931TOto be1932VBbe a1933DTa wild1934JJwild west1935NNwest ,1936,, where1937WRBwhere there1938EXthere 's1939VBZbe no1940DTno regulation1941NNregulation of1942INof nonpoint1943JJnonpoint source1944NNsource pollution1945NNpollution ?1946SENT? And1947CCand the1948DTthe answer1949NNanswer to1950TOto that1951WDTthat is1952VBZbe absolutely1953RBabsolutely not1954RBnot .1955SENT. There1956EXthere 's1957VBZbe a1958DTa couple1959NNcouple reasons1960NNSreason why1961WRBwhy that1962WDTthat 's1963VBZbe not1964RBnot true1965JJtrue .1966SENT. First1967RBfirst ,1968,, 13291969CD@card@ of1970INof the1971DTthe Clean1972NPClean Water1973NPWater Act1974NPAct requires1975VVZrequire every1976DTevery state1977NNstate to1978TOto have1979VHhave a1980DTa nonpoint1981JJnonpoint source1982NNsource management1983NNmanagement program1984NNprogram .1985SENT. Second1986RBsecond ,1987,, there1988EXthere are1989VBPbe grants1990NNSgrant and1991CCand incentives1992NNSincentive in1993INin place1994NNplace ,1995,, hundreds1996NNShundred of1997INof millions1998NNSmillion of1999INof dollars2000NNSdollar a2001DTa year2002NNyear ,2003,, to2004TOto encourage2005VVencourage states2006NNSstate to2007TOto regulate2008VVregulate .2009SENT. And2010CCand ,2011,, third2012JJthird ,2013,, there2014EXthere are2015VBPbe water2016NNwater ...2017:... there2018EXthere 's2019VBZbe a2020DTa water2021NNwater quality2022NNquality back-stop2023NNback-stop in2024INin the2025DTthe Clean2026NPClean Water2027NPWater Act2028NPAct ,2029,, so2030RBso any2031DTany water2032NNwater ,2033,, states2034NNSstate are2035VBPbe required2036VVNrequire every2037DTevery two2038CDtwo years2039NNSyear to2040TOto identify2041VVidentify waters2042NNSwater that2043WDTthat are2044VBPbe impaired2045VVNimpair ,2046,, that2047WDTthat are2048VBPbe not2049RBnot meeting2050VVGmeet water2051NNwater quality2052NNquality standards2053NNSstandard ...2054:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2055LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But2056CCbut ,2057,, Mr2058NPMr .2059SENT. Lin2060NPLin ...2061:... [MR. LIN]2062LOC[MR. LIN] ...2063:... that2064WDTthat have2065VHPhave ...2066:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2067LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...2068:... the2069DTthe question2070NNquestion is2071VBZbe what2072WPwhat this2073DTthis statute2074NNstatute means2075VVZmean .2076SENT. The2077DTthe question2078NNquestion is2079VBZbe not2080RBnot whether2081INwhether there2082EXthere 's2083VBZbe a2084DTa possible2085JJpossible state2086NNstate back-stop2087NNback-stop .2088SENT. The2089DTthe question2090NNquestion is2091VBZbe what2092WPwhat Congress2093NPCongress was2094VBDbe doing2095VVGdo in2096INin this2097DTthis statute2098NNstatute .2099SENT. And2100CCand Justice2101NPJustice Sotomayor2102NPSotomayor indicated2103VVDindicate to2104TOto you2105PPyou that2106IN/thatthat this2107DTthis statute2108NNstatute reads2109VVZread pretty2110RBpretty firmly2111RBfirmly .2112SENT. It2113PPit requires2114VVZrequire a2115DTa permit2116NNpermit when2117WRBwhen there2118EXthere 's2119VBZbe any2120DTany addition2121NNaddition of2122INof any2123DTany pollutants2124NNSpollutant to2125TOto navigable2126JJnavigable waters2127NNSwater from2128INfrom any2129DTany point2130NNpoint source2131NNsource .2132SENT. So2133RBso ,2134,, here2135RBhere ,2136,, it2137PPit 's2138VBZbe from2139INfrom a2140DTa point2141NNpoint source2142NNsource ,2143,, which2144WDTwhich is2145VBZbe the2146DTthe well2147RBwell ,2148,, and2149CCand it2150PPit 's2151VHZhave to2152TOto navigable2153JJnavigable waters2154NNSwater ,2155,, which2156WDTwhich is2157VBZbe the2158DTthe ocean2159NNocean ,2160,, and2161CCand it2162PPit 's2163VBZbe an2164DTan addition2165NNaddition .2166SENT. How2167WRBHow does2168VVZdo this2169DTthis statute2170NNstatute not2171RBnot apply2172VVapply ?2173SENT? [MR. LIN]2174LOC[MR. LIN] Your2175PP$your Honor2176NPHonor ,2177,, I2178PPI think2179VVPthink it2180PPit comes2181VVZcome down2182RPdown to2183TOto what2184WPwhat ...2185:... what2186WPwhat work2187NNwork is2188VBZbe "2189``" from2190INfrom "2191``" doing2192VVGdo in2193INin the2194DTthe statute2195NNstatute .2196SENT. And2197CCand "2198``" from2199INfrom "2200``" is2201VBZbe a2202DTa preposition2203NNpreposition ,2204,, as2205INas this2206DTthis Court2207NPCourt has2208VHZhave recognized2209VVNrecognize ,2210,, for2211INfor other2212JJother prepositions2213NNSpreposition ,2214,, like2215VVPlike "2216''" under2217INunder .2218SENT. "2219``" It2220PPit ...2221:... it2222PPit takes2223VVZtake its2224PP$its meaning2225NNmeaning from2226INfrom the2227DTthe words2228NNSword that2229WDTthat are2230VBPbe around2231INaround it2232PPit .2233SENT. And2234CCand the2235DTthe words2236NNSword here2237RBhere that2238IN/thatthat "2239``" from2240INfrom "2241``" is2242VBZbe indicating2243VVGindicate the2244DTthe relationship2245NNrelationship between2246INbetween are2247VBPbe "2248``" addition2249NNaddition "2250''" and2251CCand "2252``" point2253NNpoint source2254NNsource .2255SENT. "2256''" Now2257RBnow ,2258,, if2259INif "2260``" point2261NNpoint source2262NNsource "2263''" were2264VBDbe not2265RBnot a2266DTa defined2267VVNdefine term2268NNterm ,2269,, which2270WDTwhich is2271VBZbe what2272WPwhat my2273PP$my friends2274NNSfriend here2275RBhere urge2276VVPurge ,2277,, and2278CCand you2279PPyou looked2280VVDlook at2281INat simply2282RBsimply the2283DTthe ordinary2284JJordinary meaning2285NNmeaning of2286INof the2287DTthe word2288NNword "2289``" source2290NNsource ,2291,, "2292``" I2293PPI think2294VVPthink we2295PPwe would2296MDwould have2297VHhave ...2298:... be2299VBbe having2300VHGhave a2301DTa very2302RBvery different2303JJdifferent discussion2304NNdiscussion ,2305,, but2306CCbut "2307``" point2308NNpoint source2309NNsource "2310``" is2311VBZbe defined2312VVNdefine as2313INas a2314DTa conveyance2315NNconveyance .2316SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2317LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well2318UHwell ,2319,, it2320PPit 's2321VBZbe defined2322VVNdefine as2323INas more2324JJRmore than2325INthan a2326DTa conveyance2327NNconveyance .2328SENT. Conveyance2329NNconveyance is2330VBZbe the2331DTthe umbrella2332NNumbrella term2333NNterm .2334SENT. But2335CCbut then2336RBthen ,2337,, actually2338RBactually ,2339,, they2340PPthey go2341VVPgo further2342RBRfurther and2343CCand they2344PPthey say2345VVPsay that2346IN/thatthat there2347EXthere are2348VBPbe particular2349JJparticular things2350NNSthing that2351WDTthat are2352VBPbe point2353NNpoint sources2354NNSsource ,2355,, some2356DTsome of2357INof which2358WDTwhich sound2359NNsound like2360INlike conveyances2361NNSconveyance and2362CCand some2363DTsome of2364INof which2365WDTwhich ,2366,, quite2367RBquite frankly2368RBfrankly ,2369,, do2370VVPdo n't2371RBn't .2372SENT. Nobody2373NNnobody ever2374RBever thought2375VVDthink that2376IN/thatthat a2377DTa container2378NNcontainer sounded2379VVDsound like2380INlike a2381DTa conveyance2382NNconveyance .2383SENT. Nobody2384NNnobody ever2385RBever thought2386VVDthink that2387IN/thatthat a2388DTa concentrated2389JJconcentrated animal2390NNanimal feeding2391NNfeeding operation2392NNoperation sounded2393VVDsound like2394INlike a2395DTa conveyance2396NNconveyance .2397SENT. And2398CCand ,2399,, most2400RBSmost importantly2401RBimportantly here2402RBhere ,2403,, nobody2404NNnobody really2405RBreally thinks2406VVZthink that2407IN/thatthat a2408DTa well2409RBwell sounds2410VVZsound much2411RBmuch like2412VVlike a2413DTa conveyance2414NNconveyance .2415SENT. But2416CCbut "2417``" well2418UHwell "2419''" is2420VBZbe specifically2421RBspecifically defined2422VVNdefine to2423TOto be2424VBbe a2425DTa point2426NNpoint source2427NNsource .2428SENT. This2429DTthis is2430VBZbe a2431DTa well2432RBwell .2433SENT. So2434RBso you2435PPyou can2436MDcan read2437VVread this2438DTthis ...2439:... this2440DTthis provision2441NNprovision that2442IN/thatthat I2443PPI just2444RBjust read2445VVPread you2446PPyou ,2447,, and2448CCand the2449DTthe addition2450NNaddition of2451INof any2452DTany pollutant2453NNpollutant to2454TOto navigable2455JJnavigable waters2456NNSwater from2457INfrom any2458DTany well2459NNwell .2460SENT. That2461DTthat 's2462VBZbe what2463WPwhat we2464PPwe have2465VHPhave here2466RBhere .2467SENT. [MR. LIN]2468LOC[MR. LIN] Your2469PP$your Honor2470NPHonor ,2471,, if2472INif I2473PPI could2474MDcould start2475VVstart with2476INwith the2477DTthe statutory2478JJstatutory language2479NNlanguage ,2480,, I2481PPI think2482VVPthink the2483DTthe wells2484NNSwell as2485INas an2486DTan example2487NNexample is2488VBZbe important2489JJimportant to2490TOto address2491VVaddress ,2492,, but2493CCbut if2494INif you2495PPyou ...2496:... I2497PPI think2498VVPthink if2499INif you2500PPyou look2501VVPlook at2502INat the2503DTthe words2504NNSword "2505''" addition2506NNaddition from2507INfrom any2508DTany point2509NNpoint source2510NNsource ,2511,, "2512``" and2513CCand you2514PPyou substitute2515VVPsubstitute in2516INin ,2517,, for2518INfor point2519NNpoint source2520NNsource ,2521,, pipe2522NNpipe ,2523,, which2524WDTwhich is2525VBZbe in2526INin the2527DTthe statute2528NNstatute and2529CCand nobody2530NNnobody disagrees2531VVZdisagree is2532VBZbe a2533DTa ...2534:... is2535VBZbe a2536DTa point2537NNpoint source2538NNsource ,2539,, addition2540NNaddition to2541TOto a2542DTa lake2543NNlake ,2544,, to2545TOto an2546DTan ocean2547NNocean ,2548,, to2549TOto a2550DTa river2551NNriver ,2552,, a2553DTa navigable2554JJnavigable water2555NNwater ,2556,, an2557DTan addition2558NNaddition to2559TOto a2560DTa lake2561NNlake of2562INof pollutants2563NNSpollutant from2564INfrom a2565DTa pipe2566NNpipe ,2567,, addition2568NNaddition to2569TOto a2570DTa lake2571NNlake of2572INof sewage2573NNsewage water2574NNwater from2575INfrom a2576DTa pipe2577NNpipe .2578SENT. I2579PPI think2580VVPthink ,2581,, I2582PPI submit2583VVPsubmit ,2584,, Your2585PP$your Honor2586NPHonor ,2587,, that2588IN/thatthat the2589DTthe ordinary2590JJordinary understanding2591NNunderstanding of2592INof that2593DTthat ,2594,, what2595WPwhat one2596PPone pictures2597VVZpicture in2598INin one2599CDone 's2600POS's mind2601NNmind is2602VBZbe a2603DTa pipe2604NNpipe that2605WDTthat is2606VBZbe next2607JJnext to2608TOto the2609DTthe water2610NNwater ,2611,, not2612RBnot a2613DTa pipe2614NNpipe that2615WDTthat is2616VBZbe a2617DTa mile2618NNmile away2619RBaway .2620SENT. And2621CCand I2622PPI think2623VVPthink that2624WDTthat 's2625VBZbe because2626INbecause you2627PPyou 're2628VBPbe talking2629VVGtalk about2630RBabout in2631INin addition2632NNaddition ,2633,, which2634WDTwhich is2635VBZbe a2636DTa verb2637NNverb that2638WDTthat just2639RBjust has2640VHZhave ...2641:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2642LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] That2643DTthat ...2644:... [MR. LIN]2645LOC[MR. LIN] ...2646:... delivery2647NNdelivery ...2648:... yes2649UHyes ,2650,, Your2651PP$your Honor2652NPHonor ?2653SENT? [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2654LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Keep2655NPKeep going2656VVGgo .2657SENT. Sorry2658RBsorry .2659SENT. [MR. LIN]2660LOC[MR. LIN] ...2661:... that2662WDTthat has2663VHZhave delivery2664NNdelivery in2665INin it2666PPit and2667CCand it2668PPit 's2669VBZbe ...2670:... it2671PPit 's2672VBZbe being2673VBGbe associated2674VVNassociate with2675INwith conveyance2676NNconveyance ,2677,, which2678WDTwhich is2679VBZbe a2680DTa thing2681NNthing that2682WDTthat transports2683VVZtransport ,2684,, carries2685VVZcarry ,2686,, and2687CCand delivers2688VVZdeliver .2689SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2690LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] That2691DTthat sounds2692NNSsound like2693INlike the2694DTthe directly2695RBdirectly argument2696NNargument that2697IN/thatthat Justice2698NPJustice Scalia2699NPScalia 's2700POS's opinion2701NNopinion rejected2702VVDreject .2703SENT. [MR. LIN]2704LOC[MR. LIN] Yes2705NPYes ,2706,, Your2707PP$your Honor2708NPHonor .2709SENT. I2710PPI ...2711:... the2712DTthe Rapanos2713NPRapanos plurality2714NNplurality that2715IN/thatthat Justice2716NPJustice Scalia2717NPScalia wrote2718VVDwrite ,2719,, we2720PPwe think2721VVPthink it2722PPit 's2723VBZbe factually2724RBfactually consistent2725JJconsistent with2726INwith our2727PP$our reading2728NNreading .2729SENT. We2730PPwe think2731VVPthink he2732PPhe was2733VBDbe concerned2734VVNconcern about2735INabout point2736NNpoint source2737NNsource to2738TOto point2739VVpoint source2740NNsource pollution2741NNpollution .2742SENT. But2743CCbut as2744INas to2745TOto the2746DTthe textual2747JJtextual argument2748NNargument ...2749:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2750LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well2751UHWell ,2752,, why2753WRBwhy ...2754:... why2755WRBwhy is2756VBZbe point2757NNpoint source2758NNsource to2759TOto point2760VVpoint source2761NNsource to2762TOto navigable2763JJnavigable water2764NNwater covered2765VVNcover and2766CCand point2767NNpoint source2768NNsource to2769TOto nonpoint2770JJnonpoint source2771NNsource to2772TOto navigable2773JJnavigable water2774NNwater not2775RBnot covered2776VVNcover ?2777SENT? [MR. LIN]2778LOC[MR. LIN] Textually2779RBtextually ,2780,, we2781PPwe think2782VVPthink that2783IN/thatthat point2784NNpoint source2785NNsource to2786TOto point2787NNpoint source2788NNsource is2789VBZbe covered2790VVNcover because2791INbecause it2792PPit is2793VBZbe the2794DTthe phrase2795NNphrase "2796``" any2797DTany point2798NNpoint source2799NNsource ,2800,, "2801''" not2802RBnot the2803DTthe phrase2804NNphrase "2805``" a2806DTa point2807NNpoint source2808NNsource ,2809,, "2810''" that2811WDTthat must2812MDmust be2813VBbe the2814DTthe means2815NNSmean .2816SENT. And2817CCand because2818INbecause "2819''" any2820DTany "2821``" includes2822VVZinclude one2823CDone or2824CCor more2825JJRmore ,2826,, you2827PPyou could2828MDcould have2829VHhave more2830JJRmore than2831INthan one2832CDone point2833NNpoint source2834NNsource .2835SENT. And2836CCand the2837DTthe only2838JJonly way2839NNway more2840JJRmore than2841INthan one2842CDone point2843NNpoint source2844NNsource can2845MDcan ...2846:... where2847WRBwhere all2848DTall of2849INof the2850DTthe point2851NNpoint sources2852NNSsource are2853VBPbe carrying2854VVGcarry ,2855,, delivering2856VVGdeliver ,2857,, is2858VBZbe where2859WRBwhere they2860PPthey are2861VBPbe integrated2862JJintegrated and2863CCand operating2864VVGoperate as2865INas one2866CDone point2867NNpoint source2868NNsource .2869SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2870LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] If2871INif ...2872:... if2873INif the2874DTthe word2875NNword "2876''" from2877INfrom "2878''" ...2879:... suppose2880VVPsuppose I2881PPI think2882VVPthink you2883PPyou have2884VHPhave a2885DTa strong2886JJstrong argument2887NNargument on2888INon the2889DTthe word2890NNword "2891''" from2892INfrom ,2893,, "2894''" and2895CCand so2896RBso ,2897,, too2898RBtoo ,2899,, does2900VVZdo the2901DTthe opposing2902JJopposing side2903NNside have2904VHPhave a2905DTa strong2906JJstrong argument2907NNargument on2908INon the2909DTthe ordinary2910JJordinary meaning2911NNmeaning of2912INof the2913DTthe word2914NNword "2915''" from2916INfrom .2917SENT. "2918``" What2919WPWhat then2920RBthen should2921MDshould we2922PPwe look2923VVlook at2924INat to2925TOto help2926VVhelp us2927PPus decide2928VVdecide how2929WRBhow to2930TOto interpret2931VVinterpret it2932PPit ?2933SENT? [MR. LIN]2934LOC[MR. LIN] Your2935PP$your Honor2936NPHonor ,2937,, as2938INas this2939DTthis Court2940NPCourt has2941VHZhave said2942VVNsay many2943JJmany times2944NNStime recently2945RBrecently ,2946,, you2947PPyou have2948VHPhave to2949TOto look2950VVlook at2951INat all2952PDTall the2953DTthe other2954JJother tools2955NNStool of2956INof statutory2957JJstatutory ...2958:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2959LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] And2960CCand what2961WPwhat ...2962:... [MR. LIN]2963LOC[MR. LIN] ...2964:... interpretation2965NNinterpretation .2966SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2967LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...2968:... and2969CCand what2970WPwhat ...2971:... what2972WPwhat are2973VBPbe the2974DTthe best2975JJSgood ones2976NNSone for2977INfor you2978PPyou ?2979SENT? [MR. LIN]2980LOC[MR. LIN] A2981DTa couple2982NNcouple of2983INof them2984PPthem .2985SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2986LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Give2987VVgive me2988PPme one2989CDone or2990CCor two2991CDtwo that2992WDTthat ...2993:... that2994IN/thatthat you2995PPyou think2996VVPthink are2997VBPbe best2998JJSgood for2999INfor you3000PPyou .3001SENT. [MR. LIN]3002LOC[MR. LIN] If3003INif I3004PPI had3005VHDhave to3006TOto go3007VVgo with3008INwith two3009CDtwo ,3010,, I3011PPI would3012MDwould start3013VVstart with3014INwith structure3015NNstructure ,3016,, the3017DTthe fact3018NNfact that3019IN/thatthat nobody3020NNnobody disputes3021VVZdispute that3022IN/thatthat there3023EXthere should3024MDshould be3025VBbe a3026DTa point3027NNpoint source3028NNsource program3029NNprogram and3030CCand a3031DTa nonpoint3032JJnonpoint source3033NNsource program3034NNprogram ,3035,, and3036CCand that3037IN/thatthat their3038PP$their reading3039NNreading renders3040VVZrender the3041DTthe nonpoint3042JJnonpoint source3043NNsource program3044NNprogram ,3045,, by3046INby their3047PP$their own3048JJown admission3049NNadmission ,3050,, into3051INinto a3052DTa residuum3053NNresiduum ,3054,, whereas3055INwhereas ours3056PPours leaves3057VVZleave a3058DTa meaningful3059JJmeaningful role3060NNrole for3061INfor the3062DTthe nonpoint3063JJnonpoint source3064NNsource program3065NNprogram .3066SENT. The3067DTthe second3068JJsecond tool3069NNtool of3070INof statutory3071JJstatutory interpretation3072NNinterpretation ,3073,, Your3074PP$your Honor3075NPHonor ,3076,, is3077VBZbe to3078TOto look3079VVlook at3080INat the3081DTthe context3082NNcontext and3083CCand the3084DTthe other3085JJother provisions3086NNSprovision ,3087,, including3088VVGinclude the3089DTthe punitive3090JJpunitive provisions3091NNSprovision ,3092,, which3093WDTwhich ,3094,, as3095INas this3096DTthis Court3097NPCourt has3098VHZhave recognized3099VVNrecognize ,3100,, impose3101VVimpose civil3102JJcivil penalties3103NNSpenalty of3104INof more3105RBRmore ...3106:... of3107INof more3108JJRmore than3109INthan $3110$$ 50,0003111CD@card@ a3112DTa day3113NNday .3114SENT. We3115PPwe 're3116VBPbe talking3117VVGtalk about3118INabout a3119DTa permitting3120VVGpermit regime3121NNregime .3122SENT. And3123CCand what3124WPwhat would3125MDwould we3126PPwe have3127VHPhave expected3128VVNexpect Congress3129NPCongress to3130TOto have3131VHhave written3132VVNwrite ?3133SENT? Something3134NNsomething that3135WDTthat requires3136VVZrequire an3137DTan after-the-fact3138JJafter-the-fact analysis3139NNanalysis of3140INof traceability3141NNtraceability or3142CCor something3143NNsomething that3144WDTthat could3145MDcould be3146VBbe determined3147VVNdetermine ahead3148RBahead of3149INof time3150NNtime by3151INby mere3152JJmere observation3153NNobservation ,3154,, that3155IN/thatthat there3156EXthere is3157VBZbe here3158RBhere a3159DTa discernible3160JJdiscernible and3161CCand confined3162JJconfined ,3163,, discrete3164JJdiscrete conveyance3165NNconveyance that3166WDTthat is3167VBZbe delivering3168VVGdeliver the3169DTthe pollutants3170NNSpollutant to3171TOto the3172DTthe water3173NNwater .3174SENT. I3175PPI need3176VVPneed to3177TOto go3178VVgo get3179VVget a3180DTa permit3181NNpermit .3182SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3183LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] The3184DTthe term3185NNterm "3186''" from3187INfrom "3188``" could3189MDcould be3190VBbe read3191VVNread very3192RBvery broadly3193RBbroadly to3194TOto mean3195VVmean that3196IN/thatthat a3197DTa discharge3198NNdischarge requires3199VVZrequire a3200DTa permit3201NNpermit if3202INif the3203DTthe pollutant3204NNpollutant emerges3205VVZemerge at3206INat some3207DTsome point3208NNpoint from3209INfrom a3210DTa point3211NNpoint source3212NNsource and3213CCand by3214INby some3215DTsome means3216NNmeans ,3217,, no3218DTno matter3219NNmatter how3220WRBhow remote3221JJremote ,3222,, some3223DTsome quantity3224NNquantity of3225INof the3226DTthe pollutant3227NNpollutant eventually3228RBeventually makes3229VVZmake its3230PP$its way3231NNway into3232INinto the3233DTthe waters3234NNSwater of3235INof the3236DTthe United3237NPUnited States3238NPSStates .3239SENT. Now3240RBnow I3241PPI take3242VVPtake it3243PPit that3244DTthat interpretation3245NNinterpretation which3246WDTwhich Respondents3247NNSrespondent once3248RBonce advocated3249VVNadvocate is3250VBZbe no3251DTno longer3252RBRlonger their3253PP$their position3254NNposition .3255SENT. So3256RBso what3257WPwhat concerns3258VVZconcern me3259PPme is3260VBZbe whether3261INwhether there3262EXthere is3263VBZbe any3264DTany limiting3265VVGlimit principle3266NNprinciple that3267WDTthat can3268MDcan be3269VBbe found3270VVNfind in3271INin the3272DTthe text3273NNtext and3274CCand is3275VBZbe workable3276JJworkable and3277CCand does3278VVZdo not3279RBnot lead3280VVlead to3281TOto absurd3282JJabsurd results3283NNSresult .3284SENT. [MR. LIN]3285LOC[MR. LIN] Your3286PP$your Honor3287NPHonor ,3288,, I3289PPI think3290VVPthink the3291DTthe limiting3292VVGlimit principle3293NNprinciple is3294VBZbe the3295DTthe means3296NNmeans of3297INof delivery3298NNdelivery test3299NNtest ,3300,, which3301WDTwhich is3302VBZbe that3303IN/thatthat you3304PPyou ...3305:... that3306DTthat ...3307:... that3308IN/thatthat what3309WPwhat Congress3310NPCongress wanted3311VVDwant regulated3312JJregulated entities3313NNSentity and3314CCand regulators3315NNSregulator and3316CCand courts3317NNScourt to3318TOto look3319VVlook at3320INat is3321VBZbe ,3322,, how3323WRBhow is3324VBZbe the3325DTthe pollutant3326NNpollutant reaching3327VVGreach the3328DTthe navigable3329JJnavigable water3330NNwater ?3331SENT? Is3332VBZbe it3333PPit a3334DTa discernible3335JJdiscernible ,3336,, confined3337VVNconfine ,3338,, and3339CCand discrete3340JJdiscrete conveyance3341NNconveyance ?3342SENT? Now3343RBnow that3344DTthat is3345VBZbe a3346DTa case-by-case3347JJcase-by-case factual3348JJfactual determination3349NNdetermination and3350CCand there3351EXthere are3352VBPbe lines3353NNSline that3354WDTthat need3355VVPneed to3356TOto be3357VBbe drawn3358VVNdraw ,3359,, but3360CCbut we3361PPwe think3362VVPthink in3363INin the3364DTthe overwhelming3365JJoverwhelming majority3366NNmajority of3367INof cases3368NNScase it3369PPit 's3370VBZbe going3371VVGgo to3372TOto be3373VBbe clear3374JJclear .3375SENT. Your3376PP$your Honor3377NPHonor ,3378,, in3379INin terms3380NNSterm of3381INof whether3382INwhether "3383``" from3384INfrom "3385``" could3386MDcould be3387VBbe more3388RBRmore broadly3389RBbroadly read3390VVNread ,3391,, I3392PPI think3393VVPthink ,3394,, yes3395UHyes ,3396,, if3397INif the3398DTthe statute3399NNstatute were3400VBDbe written3401VVNwrite differently3402RBdifferently ,3403,, if3404INif it3405PPit said3406VVDsay ,3407,, for3408INfor example3409NNexample ,3410,, emitted3411VVNemit from3412INfrom a3413DTa point3414NNpoint source3415NNsource ,3416,, that3417WDTthat might3418MDmight be3419VBbe a3420DTa different3421JJdifferent case3422NNcase .3423SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3424LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] What3425WPWhat about3426INabout the3427DTthe limiting3428VVGlimit principle3429NNprinciple that3430IN/thatthat the3431DTthe Respondents3432NNSrespondent now3433RBnow propose3434VVPpropose ,3435,, which3436WDTwhich is3437VBZbe that3438IN/thatthat it3439PPit has3440VHZhave to3441TOto be3442VBbe fairly3443RBfairly traceable3444JJtraceable and3445CCand there3446EXthere has3447VHZhave to3448TOto be3449VBbe proximate3450JJproximate causation3451NNcausation and3452CCand ,3453,, therefore3454RBtherefore ,3455,, foreseeability3456NNforeseeability ,3457,, is3458VBZbe ...3459:... can3460MDcan that3461RBthat be3462VBbe found3463VVNfind in3464INin the3465DTthe text3466NNtext and3467CCand is3468VBZbe it3469PPit workable3470JJworkable ?3471SENT? [MR. LIN]3472LOC[MR. LIN] Your3473PP$your Honor3474NPHonor ,3475,, we3476PPwe do3477VVPdo n't3478RBn't think3479VVthink it3480PPit can3481MDcan be3482VBbe found3483VVNfind in3484INin the3485DTthe text3486NNtext because3487INbecause we3488PPwe do3489VVPdo n't3490RBn't read3491VVread "3492''" from3493INfrom "3494''" ...3495:... we3496PPwe do3497VVPdo n't3498RBn't think3499VVthink Congress3500NPCongress intended3501VVNintend "3502''" from3503INfrom "3504''" to3505TOto mean3506VVmean causation3507NNcausation .3508SENT. So3509RBso ,3510,, one3511CDone ,3512,, we3513PPwe do3514VVPdo n't3515RBn't think3516VVthink it3517PPit can3518MDcan be3519VBbe found3520VVNfind in3521INin the3522DTthe text3523NNtext .3524SENT. Two3525CDTwo ...3526:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3527LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3528CCbut that3529WDTthat would3530MDwould be3531VBbe a3532DTa normal3533JJnormal way3534NNway of3535INof reading3536VVGread the3537DTthe word3538NNword "3539''" from3540INfrom ,3541,, "3542``" would3543MDwould n't3544RBn't it3545PPit ;3546:; in3547INin other3548JJother words3549NNSword ,3550,, to3551TOto say3552VVsay ,3553,, to3554TOto decide3555VVdecide whether3556INwhether something3557NNsomething is3558VBZbe from3559INfrom something3560NNsomething else3561RBelse ,3562,, you3563PPyou have3564VHPhave to3565TOto look3566VVlook as3567INas to3568TOto whether3569INwhether it3570PPit 's3571VBZbe from3572INfrom something3573NNsomething else3574RBelse ?3575SENT? [3576SYM[ LAUGHTER3577NNlaughter ]3578SYM] [MR. LIN]3579LOC[MR. LIN] Your3580PP$your Honor3581NPHonor ,3582,, if3583INif I3584PPI may3585MDmay .3586SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3587LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Yes3588NPYes .3589SENT. [MR. LIN]3590LOC[MR. LIN] Your3591PP$your Honor3592NPHonor ,3593,, with3594INwith respect3595NNrespect ,3596,, I3597PPI think3598VVPthink it3599PPit ...3600:... it3601PPit ...3602:... that3603WDTthat assumes3604VVZassume that3605IN/thatthat a3606DTa certain3607JJcertain kind3608NNkind of3609INof word3610NNword is3611VBZbe following3612VVGfollow from3613INfrom .3614SENT. If3615INif you3616PPyou said3617VVDsay ,3618,, for3619INfor example3620NNexample ,3621,, Your3622PP$your Honor3623NPHonor ,3624,, this3625DTthis arrived3626VVNarrive from3627INfrom Miami3628NPMiami ,3629,, Miami3630NPMiami is3631VBZbe a3632DTa place3633NNplace of3634INof origin3635NNorigin ,3636,, and3637CCand so3638RBso ,3639,, yes3640UHyes ,3641,, "3642''" from3643INfrom "3644``" is3645VBZbe indicating3646VVGindicate the3647DTthe source3648NNsource ,3649,, the3650DTthe place3651NNplace where3652WRBwhere that3653DTthat started3654VVDstart .3655SENT. But3656CCbut ,3657,, if3658INif you3659PPyou said3660VVDsay this3661DTthis arrived3662VVNarrive today3663NNtoday from3664INfrom a3665DTa truck3666NNtruck ,3667,, I3668PPI posit3669VVPposit ,3670,, Your3671PP$your Honor3672NPHonor ,3673,, I3674PPI submit3675VVPsubmit that3676IN/thatthat truck3677NNtruck is3678VBZbe being3679VBGbe used3680VVNuse as3681INas a3682DTa conveyance3683NNconveyance there3684RBthere .3685SENT. It3686PPit 's3687VBZbe not3688RBnot necessarily3689RBnecessarily the3690DTthe point3691NNpoint of3692INof origin3693NNorigin .3694SENT. Thank3695VVthank you3696PPyou .3697SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]3698LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank3699VVthank you3700PPyou ,3701,, counsel3702NNcounsel .3703SENT. Mr3704NPMr .3705SENT. Stewart3706NPStewart .3707SENT.