[GENERAL FRANCISCO]23LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Mr24NPMr .25SENT. Chief26NPChief Justice27NPJustice ,28,, and29CCand may30MDmay it31PPit please32VVplease the33DTthe Court34NPCourt :35:: In36INin March37NPMarch 201838CD@card@ ,39,, Secretary40NPSecretary Ross41NPRoss reinstated42VVDreinstate a43DTa citizenship44NNcitizenship question45NNquestion that46WDTthat has47VHZhave been48VBNbe asked49VVNask as50INas part51NNpart of52INof the53DTthe census54NNcensus in55INin one56CDone form57NNform or58CCor another59DTanother for60INfor nearly61RBnearly 20062CD@card@ years63NNSyear .64SENT. The65DTthe district66NNdistrict court67NNcourt 's68POS's invalidation69NNinvalidation ...70:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]71LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I72PPI 'm73VBPbe sorry74JJsorry .75SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]76LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...77:... of78INof that79DTthat decision80NNdecision was81VBDbe wrong82JJwrong for83INfor ...84:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]85LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I86PPI 'm87VBPbe sorry88JJsorry ,89,, it90PPit 's91VHZhave not92RBnot been93VBNbe a94DTa part95NNpart of96INof the97DTthe survey98NNsurvey ,99,, which100WDTwhich is101VBZbe where102WRBwhere he103PPhe reinstated104VVDreinstate it105PPit ,106,, since107INsince 1950108CD@card@ .109SENT. And110CCand for111INfor 65112CD@card@ years113NNSyear ,114,, every115DTevery Secretary116NPSecretary of117INof the118DTthe Department119NPDepartment of120INof Commerce121NPCommerce ,122,, every123DTevery statistician124NNstatistician ,125,, including126VVGinclude this127DTthis Secretary128NPSecretary 's129POS's statistician130NNstatistician ,131,, recommended132VVNrecommend against133INagainst adding134VVGadd the135DTthe question136NNquestion .137SENT. So138RBso it139PPit may140MDmay be141VBbe that142DTthat 200143CD@card@ years144NNSyear of145INof asking146VVGask a147DTa citizenship148NNcitizenship question149NNquestion in150INin other151JJother forms152NNSform may153MDmay be154VBbe true155JJtrue ,156,, but157CCbut not158RBnot on159INon the160DTthe short161JJshort survey162NNsurvey .163SENT. That164DTthat 's165VBZbe what166WPwhat 's167VBZbe at168INat issue169NNissue here170RBhere .171SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]172LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well173UHWell ,174,, but175RBbut ,176,, Your177PP$your Honor178NPHonor ,179,, it180PPit has181VHZhave been182VBNbe part183NNpart of184INof the185DTthe census186NNcensus for187INfor the188DTthe better189JJRgood part190NNpart of191INof 200192CD@card@ years193NNSyear ,194,, initially195RBinitially as196INas part197NNpart of198INof the199DTthe overall200JJoverall census201NNcensus itself202PPitself ...203:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]204LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But205CCbut do206VVPdo n't207RBn't we208PPwe put209VVDput ...210:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]211LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...212:... that213WDTthat went214VVDgo to215TOto all216DTall individuals217NNSindividual .218SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]219LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...220:... do221VVPdo n't222RBn't we223PPwe ask224VVPask the225DTthe question226NNquestion in227INin context228NNcontext ?229SENT? And230CCand for231INfor 65-odd-plus232JJ65-odd-plus years233NNSyear ,234,, everybody235NNeverybody said236VVDsay do237VVdo n't238RBn't add239VVadd it240PPit ?241SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]242LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] No243NPNo ,244,, Your245PP$your Honor246NPHonor ,247,, because248RBbecause ,249,, in250INin fact251NNfact ,252,, it253PPit was254VBDbe included255VVNinclude in256INin the257DTthe long-form258NNlong-form census259NNcensus until260INuntil the261DTthe year262NNyear 2000263CD@card@ .264SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]265LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That266DTthat is267VBZbe a268DTa different269JJdifferent ...270:... that271WDTthat 's272VBZbe the273DTthe whole274JJwhole issue275NNissue .276SENT. It277PPit could278MDcould have279VHhave been280VBNbe ...281:... it282PPit 's283VBZbe still284RBstill included285VVNinclude ...286:... or287CCor it288PPit could289MDcould have290VHhave been291VBNbe included292VVNinclude in293INin the294DTthe ACS295NPACS form296NNform ,297,, which298WDTwhich is299VBZbe still300RBstill being301VBGbe done302VVNdo .303SENT. And304CCand that305DTthat 's306VBZbe being307VBGbe done308VVNdo every309DTevery first310JJfirst ,311,, third312JJthird ,313,, and314CCand fifth315JJfifth year316NNyear .317SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]318LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes319NPYes ,320,, Your321PP$your Honor322NPHonor ,323,, but324CCbut it325PPit has326VHZhave been327VBNbe part328NNpart of329INof the330DTthe census331NNcensus in332INin one333CDone form334NNform or335CCor another336DTanother for337INfor a338DTa very339RBvery long340JJlong period341NNperiod of342INof time343NNtime .344SENT. It345PPit has346VHZhave a347DTa long348JJlong pedigree349NNpedigree .350SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]351LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So352INso the353DTthe question354NNquestion now355RBnow before356INbefore us357PPus is358VBZbe ...359:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]360LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] The361DTthe question362NNquestion ,363,, therefore364RBtherefore ,365,, is366VBZbe two367CDtwo things368NNSthing .369SENT. First370RBfirst ,371,, we372PPwe think373VVPthink that374IN/thatthat the375DTthe Respondents376NNSrespondent '377POS' claims378NNSclaim are379VBPbe not380RBnot justiciable381JJjusticiable because382INbecause their383PP$their injuries384NNSinjury are385VBPbe n't386RBn't fairly387RBfairly attributable388JJattributable to389TOto the390DTthe government391NNgovernment or392CCor subject393NNsubject to394TOto APA395NPAPA review396NNreview .397SENT. And398CCand ,399,, secondly400RBsecondly ,401,, the402DTthe Secretary403NPSecretary acted404VVDact well405RBwell within406INwithin his407PP$his discretion408NNdiscretion when409WRBwhen he410PPhe determined411VVDdetermine that412IN/thatthat reinstating413VVGreinstate the414DTthe citizenship415NNcitizenship question416NNquestion would417MDwould provide418VVprovide the419DTthe best420JJSgood evidence421NNevidence of422INof citizenship423NNcitizenship .424SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]425LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Can426MDcan we427PPwe just428RBjust go429VVPgo back430RBback a431DTa bit432NNbit to433TOto your434PP$your opening435NNopening ?436SENT? Why437WRBwhy was438VBDbe the439DTthe citizenship440NNcitizenship question441NNquestion dropped442VVDdrop in443INin 1960444CD@card@ and445CCand remained446VVDremain off447RPoff for448INfor all449PDTall the450DTthe decades451NNSdecade after452INafter that453DTthat ?454SENT? What455WPWhat was456VBDbe the457DTthe reason458NNreason for459INfor dropping460VVGdrop it461PPit ?462SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]463LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Your464PP$your Honor465NPHonor ,466,, in467INin 1960468CD@card@ ,469,, it470PPit did471VVDdo n't472RBn't appear473VVappear in474INin anything475NNanything ,476,, and477CCand it478PPit was479VBDbe moved480VVNmove on481INon to482TOto the483DTthe American484NPAmerican Community485NPCommunity Survey486NPSurvey .487SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]488LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But489CCbut ...490:... but491CCbut why492RBwhy ...493:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]494LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] That495DTthat was496VBDbe part497NNpart of498INof an499DTan overall500JJoverall movement501NNmovement of502INof most503JJSmost of504INof the505DTthe demographic506JJdemographic ...507:... I508PPI 'm509VBPbe sorry510JJsorry ,511,, onto512INonto the513DTthe long-form514NNlong-form census515NNcensus ,516,, not517RBnot the518DTthe American519NPAmerican Community520NPCommunity Survey521NPSurvey .522SENT. And523CCand that524DTthat was525VBDbe part526NNpart of527INof a528DTa larger529JJRlarge process530NNprocess that531WDTthat moved532VVDmove a533DTa large534JJlarge number535NNnumber of536INof demographic537JJdemographic questions538NNSquestion off539RBoff of540INof the541DTthe short542JJshort form543NNform and544CCand onto545INonto the546DTthe long547JJlong form548NNform .549SENT. We550PPwe no551RBno longer552RBRlonger have553VHhave a554DTa long555JJlong form556NNform ,557,, so558RBso then559RBthen the560DTthe question561NNquestion is562VBZbe do563VVdo you564PPyou reinstate565VVreinstate the566DTthe long567JJlong form568NNform or569CCor do570VVdo you571PPyou ,572,, in573INin fact574NNfact ,575,, move576VVmove it577PPit back578RBback onto579INonto the580DTthe short-form581NNshort-form census582NNcensus .583SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]584LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But585CCbut did586VVDdo n't587RBn't ...588:... did589VVDdo n't590RBn't ...591:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]592LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] It593PPit was594VBDbe eminently595RBeminently ...596:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]597LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...598:... did599VVDdo n't600RBn't the601DTthe Census602NPCensus Bureau603NPBureau give604VVgive a605DTa reason606NNreason why607WRBwhy it608PPit was609VBDbe dropped610VVNdrop ?611SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]612LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well613UHwell ,614,, they615PPthey generally616RBgenerally wanted617VVDwant to618TOto move619VVmove all620DTall of621INof the622DTthe demographic623JJdemographic questions624NNSquestion onto625INonto the626DTthe long627JJlong form628NNform .629SENT. We630PPwe no631RBno longer632RBRlonger have633VHhave a634DTa long635JJlong form636NNform .637SENT. And638CCand the639DTthe problems640NNSproblem with641INwith using642VVGuse the643DTthe American644NPAmerican Community645NPCommunity Survey646NPSurvey are647VBPbe well648RBwell known649VVNknow .650SENT. So651RBso you652PPyou basically653RBbasically ...654:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]655LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But656CCbut there657EXthere was658VBDbe nothing659NNnothing ...660:... there661EXthere was662VBDbe nothing663NNnothing in664INin 1960665CD@card@ to666TOto the667DTthe effect668NNeffect that669IN/thatthat the670DTthe Census671NPCensus Bureau672NPBureau found673VVDfind that674IN/thatthat putting675VVGput it676PPit on677INon the678DTthe short679JJshort form680NNform would681MDwould depress682VVdepress the683DTthe count684NNcount of685INof non-citizens686NNSnon-citizens ?687SENT? Nothing688NNnothing like689INlike that690DTthat ?691SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]692LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well693UHwell ...694:... well695RBwell ,696,, sure697RBsure ,698,, Your699PP$your Honor700NPHonor ,701,, but702CCbut that703DTthat 's704VBZbe because705INbecause they706PPthey thought707VVDthink that708IN/thatthat ,709,, along710INalong with711INwith all712DTall of713INof the714DTthe other715JJother demographic716JJdemographic questions717NNSquestion in718INin the719DTthe census720NNcensus ,721,, had722VHDhave an723DTan overall724JJoverall impact725NNimpact of726INof ...727:... on728INon ...729:... on730INon ...731:... on732INon overall733JJoverall census734NNcensus accuracy735NNaccuracy .736SENT. And737CCand that738DTthat underscores739VVZunderscore why740WRBwhy we741PPwe do742VVPdo n't743RBn't think744VVthink this745DTthis is746VBZbe really747RBreally subject748JJsubject to749TOto judicial750JJjudicial review751NNreview ,752,, because753RBbecause ,754,, really755RBreally ,756,, what757WPwhat you758PPyou 're759VBPbe saying760VVGsay is761VBZbe that762IN/thatthat Congress763NPCongress ...764:... courts765NNScourt would766MDwould have767VHhave to768TOto review769VVreview every770DTevery question771NNquestion on772INon the773DTthe long774JJlong form775NNform to776TOto determine777VVdetermine if778INif the779DTthe informational780JJinformational value781NNvalue of782INof the783DTthe question784NNquestion outweighed785VVDoutweigh the786DTthe impact787NNimpact on788INon census789NNcensus accuracy790NNaccuracy ,791,, because792RBbecause ,793,, at794INat the795DTthe end796NNend of797INof the798DTthe day799NNday ,800,, if801INif you802PPyou add803VVPadd any804DTany particular805JJparticular question806NNquestion onto807INonto the808DTthe census809NNcensus ,810,, you811PPyou 're812VBPbe always813RBalways trading814VVGtrade off815RPoff information816NNinformation and817CCand accuracy818NNaccuracy .819SENT. And820CCand 141821CD@card@ (822(( a823DTa )824)) does825VVZdo n't826RBn't provide827VVprovide courts828NNScourt with829INwith a830DTa basis831NNbasis for832INfor evaluating833VVGevaluate that834DTthat determination835NNdetermination .836SENT. So837RBso that838DTthat 's839VBZbe why840WRBwhy we841PPwe think842VVPthink this843DTthis is844VBZbe n't845RBn't subject846JJsubject to847TOto APA848NPAPA review849NNreview at850INat all851DTall .852SENT. But853CCbut we854PPwe also855RBalso think856VVPthink that857IN/thatthat the858DTthe Respondents859NNSrespondent do860VVPdo n't861RBn't have862VHhave standing863NNstanding here864RBhere ,865,, because866INbecause they867PPthey 're868VBPbe injured869VVNinjure if870INif and871CCand only872RBonly if873INif ,874,, first875RBfirst ,876,, you877PPyou have878VHPhave third-party879JJthird-party action880NNaction ;881:; secondly882RBsecondly ,883,, you884PPyou have885VHPhave third-party886JJthird-party action887NNaction that888WDTthat 's889VBZbe illegal890JJillegal ;891:; and892CCand ,893,, third894JJthird ,895,, that896DTthat third-party897JJthird-party action898NNaction is899VBZbe based900VVNbase on901INon speculation902NNspeculation that903IN/thatthat the904DTthe government905NNgovernment will906MDwill itself907PPitself violate908VVviolate the909DTthe law910NNlaw .911SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]912LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] On913INon the914DTthe ...915:... on916INon the917DTthe illegality918NNillegality ,919,, is920VBZbe ...921:... is922VBZbe that923IN/thatthat a924DTa ...925:... a926DTa predictive927JJpredictive factor928NNfactor ?929SENT? In930INin other931JJother words932NNSword ,933,, do934VVPdo we935PPwe ,936,, as937INas our938PP$our cases939NNScase have940VHPhave often941RBoften said942VVNsay ,943,, do944VVPdo not945RBnot assume946VVassume illegal947JJillegal behavior948NNbehavior in949INin establishing950VVGestablish standing951NNstanding ,952,, but953CCbut is954VBZbe that955IN/thatthat simply956RBsimply predictive957JJpredictive ?958SENT? In959INin other960JJother words961NNSword ,962,, we963PPwe doubt964VVPdoubt people965NNSpeople are966VBPbe going967VVGgo to968TOto engage969VVengage on970INon a971DTa regular972JJregular basis973NNbasis in974INin illegal975JJillegal behavior976NNbehavior ,977,, and978CCand ,979,, therefore980RBtherefore ,981,, we982PPwe do983VVPdo n't984RBn't think985VVthink their986PP$their injury987NNinjury is988VBZbe ...989:... is990VBZbe tangible991JJtangible or992CCor likely993JJlikely ,994,, or995CCor is996VBZbe there997RBthere something998NNsomething special999JJspecial about1000INabout the1001DTthe fact1002NNfact that1003IN/thatthat it1004PPit 's1005VBZbe illegal1006JJillegal activity1007NNactivity ?1008SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1009LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Well1010UHwell ,1011,, I1012PPI think1013VVPthink ,1014,, Your1015PP$your Honor1016NPHonor ,1017,, in1018RBin ...1019:... in1020INin the1021DTthe Court1022NPCourt 's1023POS's past1024JJpast cases1025NNScase ,1026,, it1027PPit has1028VHZhave often1029RBoften been1030VBNbe used1031VVNuse as1032INas a1033DTa predictive1034JJpredictive factor1035NNfactor ,1036,, but1037CCbut I1038PPI also1039RBalso think1040VVPthink that1041IN/thatthat when1042WRBwhen you1043PPyou put1044VVPput it1045PPit all1046RBall together1047RBtogether ,1048,, it1049PPit breaks1050VVZbreak the1051DTthe chain1052NNchain of1053INof causation1054NNcausation for1055INfor Article1056NPArticle III1057NPIII causation1058NNcausation purposes1059NNSpurpose .1060SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1061LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I1062PPI mean1063VVPmean ,1064,, it1065PPit is1066VBZbe true1067JJtrue that1068IN/thatthat if1069INif people1070NNSpeople go1071VVPgo 601072CD@card@ miles1073NNSmile an1074DTan hour1075NNhour in1076INin a1077DTa 55-mile-an-hour1078JJ55-mile-an-hour zone1079NNzone ,1080,, that1081WDTthat 's1082VBZbe unlawful1083JJunlawful .1084SENT. But1085CCbut you1086PPyou would1087MDwould n't1088RBn't say1089VVsay that1090IN/thatthat they1091PPthey 're1092VBPbe not1093RBnot going1094VVGgo to1095TOto do1096VVdo that1097IN/thatthat in1098INin forming1099VVGform public1100JJpublic policy1101NNpolicy ...1102:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1103LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And1104CCand ...1105:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1106LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...1107:... or1108CCor considering1109VVGconsider standing1110NNstanding .1111SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1112LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...1113:... I1114PPI ...1115:... I1116PPI agree1117VVPagree ,1118,, Your1119PP$your Honor1120NPHonor ,1121,, and1122CCand that1123DTthat 's1124VBZbe not1125RBnot our1126PP$our argument1127NNargument here1128RBhere .1129SENT. I1130PPI think1131VVPthink that1132IN/thatthat Clapper1133NPClapper is1134VBZbe a1135DTa good1136JJgood analogy1137NNanalogy .1138SENT. In1139INin Clapper1140NPClapper ,1141,, it1142PPit was1143VBDbe quite1144RBquite clear1145JJclear that1146IN/thatthat the1147DTthe plaintiffs1148NNSplaintiff in1149INin that1150DTthat case1151NNcase suffered1152VVDsuffer an1153DTan injury1154NNinjury in1155INin fact1156NNfact ,1157,, because1158INbecause they1159PPthey declined1160VVDdecline to1161TOto use1162VVuse their1163PP$their cell1164NNcell phones1165NNSphone to1166TOto communicate1167VVcommunicate with1168INwith their1169PP$their clients1170NNSclient and1171CCand their1172PP$their clients1173NNSclient declined1174VVDdecline to1175TOto use1176VVuse their1177PP$their cell1178NNcell phones1179NNSphone to1180TOto communicate1181VVcommunicate with1182INwith them1183PPthem out1184INout of1185INof a1186DTa fear1187NNfear that1188IN/thatthat their1189PP$their phone1190NNphone calls1191NNScall would1192MDwould be1193VBbe intercepted1194VVNintercept .1195SENT. No1196DTno question1197NNquestion that1198IN/thatthat there1199EXthere was1200VBDbe an1201DTan injury1202NNinjury in1203INin fact1204NNfact .1205SENT. But1206CCbut what1207WPwhat the1208DTthe Court1209NPCourt held1210VVDhold was1211VBDbe that1212IN/thatthat that1213DTthat injury1214NNinjury was1215VBDbe n't1216RBn't fairly1217RBfairly attributable1218JJattributable to1219TOto the1220DTthe government1221NNgovernment because1222INbecause it1223PPit was1224VBDbe caused1225VVNcause by1226INby the1227DTthe plaintiffs1228NNSplaintiff '1229POS' fear1230NNfear ...1231:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1232LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I1233PPI ...1234:... I1235PPI ...1236:... I1237PPI 'm1238VBPbe sorry1239JJsorry ,1240,, you1241PPyou 're1242VBPbe talking1243VVGtalk ...1244:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1245LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...1246:... that1247IN/thatthat the1248DTthe government1249NNgovernment would1250MDwould intercept1251VVintercept their1252PP$their calls1253NNScall .1254SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1255LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You1256PPyou 're1257VBPbe talking1258VVGtalk proximate1259JJproximate cause1260NNcause ,1261,, which1262WDTwhich we1263PPwe 've1264VHPhave never1265RBnever used1266VVNuse .1267SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1268LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] No1269NPNo ,1270,, Your1271PP$your Honor1272NPHonor .1273SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1274LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] We1275PPwe 've1276VHPhave used1277VVNuse determinate1278JJdeterminate or1279CCor coercive1280JJcoercive effect1281NNeffect .1282SENT. In1283INin Wayfair1284NPWayfair ,1285,, one1286CDone of1287INof the1288DTthe reasons1289NNSreason we1290PPwe found1291VVDfind the1292DTthe stores1293NNSstore ,1294,, not1295RBnot the1296DTthe states1297NNSstate ,1298,, to1299TOto be1300VBbe injured1301VVNinjure is1302VBZbe because1303INbecause consumers1304NNSconsumer fail1305VVPfail to1306TOto pay1307VVpay taxes1308NNStaxis ,1309,, an1310DTan illegality1311NNillegality under1312INunder the1313DTthe law1314NNlaw .1315SENT. And1316CCand we1317PPwe said1318VVDsay that1319WDTthat 's1320VBZbe why1321WRBwhy the1322DTthe states1323NNSstate were1324VBDbe being1325VBGbe harmed1326VVNharm .1327SENT. In1328INin NAACP1329NPNAACP versus1330CCversus Alabama1331NPAlabama ,1332,, we1333PPwe held1334VVDhold the1335DTthe NAACP1336NPNAACP had1337VHDhave standing1338NNstanding ,1339,, even1340RBeven though1341INthough it1342PPit was1343VBDbe their1344PP$their members1345NNSmember who1346WPwho would1347MDwould be1348VBbe injured1349VVNinjure by1350INby other1351JJother people1352NNSpeople ,1353,, an1354DTan illegality1355NNillegality ,1356,, harassment1357NNharassment ,1358,, but1359CCbut as1360INas the1361DTthe just1362RBjust ...1363:... as1364INas Chief1365NPChief Justice1366NPJustice Roberts1367NPRoberts said1368VVDsay ,1369,, it1370PPit 's1371VBZbe predictable1372JJpredictable .1373SENT. There1374EXthere 's1375VBZbe no1376DTno doubt1377NNdoubt that1378IN/thatthat people1379NNSpeople will1380MDwill respond1381VVrespond less1382RBRless ...1383:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1384LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh1385NPUh-huh .1386SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1387LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1388:... because1389INbecause of1390INof the1391DTthe census1392NNcensus .1393SENT. That1394DTthat has1395VHZhave been1396VBNbe proven1397VVNprove in1398INin study1399NNstudy after1400INafter study1401NNstudy .1402SENT. One1403CDOne census1404NNcensus surveyor1405NNsurveyor described1406VVDdescribe an1407DTan incident1408NNincident where1409WRBwhere he1410PPhe walked1411VVDwalk into1412INinto a1413DTa home1414NNhome ,1415,, started1416VVDstart asking1417VVGask citizenship1418NNcitizenship ,1419,, and1420CCand the1421DTthe person1422NNperson stopped1423VVDstop and1424CCand left1425VVDleave his1426PP$his home1427NNhome ,1428,, leaving1429VVGleave the1430DTthe census1431NNcensus surveyor1432NNsurveyor sitting1433VVGsit there1434RBthere .1435SENT. So1436RBso ,1437,, if1438INif you1439PPyou 're1440VBPbe talking1441VVGtalk about1442INabout prediction1443NNprediction ,1444,, this1445DTthis is1446VBZbe about1447RBabout 1001448CD@card@ percent1449NNpercent that1450IN/thatthat people1451NNSpeople will1452MDwill answer1453VVanswer less1454RBRless ,1455,, so1456RBso ...1457:... but1458CCbut I1459PPI do1460VVPdo n't1461RBn't know1462VVknow that1463IN/thatthat it1464PPit 's1465VBZbe prediction1466NNprediction .1467SENT. It1468PPit 's1469VBZbe an1470DTan action1471NNaction by1472INby the1473DTthe government1474NNgovernment will1475MDwill be1476VBbe a1477DTa ...1478:... will1479MDwill be1480VBbe a1481DTa cause1482NNcause of1483INof this1484DTthis ,1485,, not1486RBnot proximate1487JJproximate necessarily1488RBnecessarily ,1489,, but1490CCbut that1491IN/thatthat cause1492NNcause will1493MDwill cause1494VVcause harm1495NNharm .1496SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1497LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right1498NPRight ,1499,, two1500CDtwo responses1501NNSresponse ,1502,, Your1503PP$your Honor1504NPHonor .1505SENT. First1506RBfirst ,1507,, we1508PPwe 're1509VBPbe not1510RBnot talking1511VVGtalk about1512INabout proximate1513JJproximate cause1514NNcause .1515SENT. We1516PPwe 're1517VBPbe talking1518VVGtalk about1519INabout an1520DTan analysis1521NNanalysis that1522WDTthat was1523VBDbe similar1524JJsimilar to1525TOto what1526WPwhat this1527DTthis Court1528NNcourt used1529VVNuse in1530INin the1531DTthe Clapper1532NPClapper case1533NNcase ,1534,, where1535WRBwhere the1536DTthe Clappers1537NNSclapper said1538VVDsay that1539IN/thatthat even1540RBeven though1541INthough there1542EXthere was1543VBDbe injury1544NNinjury in1545INin fact1546NNfact ,1547,, even1548RBeven though1549INthough the1550DTthe government1551NNgovernment 's1552POS's actions1553NNSaction were1554VBDbe in1555INin a1556DTa very1557RBvery real1558JJreal sense1559NNsense a1560DTa but-for1561NNbut-for cause1562NNcause of1563INof that1564DTthat injury1565NNinjury in1566INin fact1567NNfact ,1568,, it1569PPit was1570VBDbe n't1571RBn't fair1572JJfair to1573TOto attribute1574VVattribute that1575IN/thatthat to1576TOto the1577DTthe government1578NNgovernment because1579INbecause it1580PPit was1581VBDbe based1582VVNbase on1583INon the1584DTthe plaintiffs1585NNSplaintiff '1586POS' speculation1587NNspeculation that1588IN/thatthat the1589DTthe government1590NNgovernment would1591MDwould intercept1592VVintercept their1593PP$their telephone1594NNtelephone calls1595NNScall .1596SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1597LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But1598CCbut this1599DTthis is1600VBZbe not1601RBnot ...1602:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1603LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You1604PPyou ...1605:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1606LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1607:... the1608DTthe plaintiff1609NNplaintiff acting1610VVGact ;1611:; this1612DTthis is1613VBZbe third1614JJthird parties1615NNSparty acting1616VVGact .1617SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1618LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes1619NPYes ,1620,, and1621CCand that1622WDTthat makes1623VVZmake it1624PPit ,1625,, we1626PPwe think1627VVPthink ,1628,, even1629RBeven worse1630JJRbad because1631INbecause the1632DTthe Court1633NPCourt 's1634POS's cases1635NNScase have1636VHPhave generally1637RBgenerally said1638VVNsay you1639PPyou do1640VVPdo n't1641RBn't rely1642VVrely on1643INon third-party1644JJthird-party standing1645NNstanding .1646SENT. But1647CCbut ...1648:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1649LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You1650PPyou ...1651:... you1652PPyou said1653VVDsay you1654PPyou had1655VHDhave two1656CDtwo responses1657NNSresponse ?1658SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1659LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah1660NPYeah .1661SENT. The1662DTthe second1663NNsecond is1664VBZbe that1665IN/thatthat on1666INon NAACP1667NPNAACP against1668INagainst Alabama1669NPAlabama ,1670,, that1671WDTthat was1672VBDbe a1673DTa case1674NNcase where1675WRBwhere the1676DTthe NAACP1677NPNAACP was1678VBDbe being1679VBGbe directly1680RBdirectly regulated1681VVNregulate by1682INby the1683DTthe statute1684NNstatute that1685IN/thatthat they1686PPthey were1687VBDbe challenging1688VVGchallenge .1689SENT. They1690PPthey were1691VBDbe forced1692VVNforce to1693TOto disclose1694VVdisclose their1695PP$their private1696JJprivate membership1697NNmembership lists1698NNSlist ,1699,, and1700CCand that1701DTthat was1702VBDbe their1703PP$their injury1704NNinjury .1705SENT. There1706EXthere was1707VBDbe nobody1708NNnobody that1709WDTthat stood1710VVDstand in1711INin between1712INbetween them1713PPthem and1714CCand the1715DTthe disclosure1716NNdisclosure of1717INof their1718PP$their private1719JJprivate injury1720NNinjury ...1721:... private1722JJprivate membership1723NNmembership list1724NNlist .1725SENT. But1726CCbut turning1727VVGturn to1728TOto the1729DTthe agency1730NNagency reviewability1731NNreviewability argument1732NNargument ,1733,, there1734EXthere really1735RBreally is1736VBZbe nothing1737NNnothing in1738INin 1411739CD@card@ (1740(( a1741DTa )1742)) that1743WDTthat provides1744VVZprovide courts1745NNScourt with1746INwith a1747DTa basis1748NNbasis to1749TOto review1750VVreview this1751DTthis decision1752NNdecision .1753SENT. The1754DTthe language1755NNlanguage is1756VBZbe quite1757RBquite similar1758JJsimilar to1759TOto what1760WPwhat the1761DTthe Court1762NNcourt addressed1763VVNaddress in1764INin Webster1765NPWebster .1766SENT. Every1767DTevery ...1768:... the1769DTthe addition1770NNaddition of1771INof any1772DTany particular1773JJparticular demographic1774JJdemographic question1775NNquestion is1776VBZbe always1777RBalways going1778VVGgo to1779TOto be1780VBbe a1781DTa tradeoff1782NNtradeoff between1783INbetween information1784NNinformation and1785CCand accuracy1786NNaccuracy .1787SENT. And1788CCand I'd1789NNSI'd ...1790:... I'd1791NNSI'd ...1792:... I1793PPI 'd1794MDwould urge1795VVurge you1796PPyou to1797TOto look1798VVlook to1799TOto the1800DTthe 20001801CD@card@ long-form1802NNlong-form census1803NNcensus that1804WDTthat had1805VHDhave highly1806RBhighly detailed1807VVNdetail questions1808NNSquestion about1809RBabout not1810RBnot just1811RBjust citizenship1812NNcitizenship but1813CCbut things1814NNSthing like1815INlike your1816PP$your commuting1817VVGcommute time1818NNtime ,1819,, how1820WRBhow many1821JJmany bedrooms1822NNSbedroom you1823PPyou had1824VHDhave in1825INin your1826PP$your house1827NNhouse ,1828,, whether1829INwhether you1830PPyou suffered1831VVDsuffer from1832INfrom certain1833JJcertain health1834NNhealth conditions1835NNScondition .1836SENT. Under1837INunder Respondents1838NNSrespondent '1839POS' position1840NNposition ,1841,, courts1842NNScourt would1843MDwould have1844VHhave to1845TOto review1846VVreview each1847DTeach one1848CDone of1849INof those1850DTthose questions1851NNSquestion to1852TOto determine1853VVdetermine whether1854INwhether the1855DTthe informational1856JJinformational value1857NNvalue of1858INof that1859DTthat question1860NNquestion outweighed1861VVDoutweigh any1862DTany potential1863JJpotential impact1864NNimpact ...1865:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1866LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] On1867INon the1868DTthe main1869JJmain form1870NNform ...1871:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1872LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...1873:... on1874INon census1875NNcensus accuracy1876NNaccuracy .1877SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1878LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...1879:... on1880INon the1881DTthe main1882JJmain form1883NNform ...1884:... on1885INon the1886DTthe main1887JJmain form1888NNform ,1889,, suppose1890VVPsuppose the1891DTthe Secretary1892NPSecretary puts1893VVZput in1894INin a1895DTa question1896NNquestion about1897INabout sexual1898JJsexual orientation1899NNorientation .1900SENT. Suppose1901VVsuppose he1902PPhe puts1903VVZput a1904DTa question1905NNquestion in1906INin about1907INabout arrest1908NNarrest record1909NNrecord .1910SENT. Suppose1911VVsuppose he1912PPhe says1913VVZsay ,1914,, I1915PPI 'm1916VBPbe going1917VVGgo to1918TOto have1919VHhave the1920DTthe whole1921JJwhole survey1922NNsurvey in1923INin French1924NPFrench .1925SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1926LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh1927NPUh-huh .1928SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1929LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] In1930INin other1931JJother words1932NNSword ,1933,, we1934PPwe have1935VHPhave no1936DTno role1937NNrole to1938TOto play1939VVplay no1940DTno matter1941NNmatter how1942WRBhow extreme1943JJextreme ?1944SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1945LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Your1946PP$your Honor1947NPHonor ,1948,, you1949PPyou certainly1950RBcertainly do1951VVPdo have1952VHhave a1953DTa role1954NNrole to1955TOto play1956VVplay ,1957,, and1958CCand I1959PPI think1960VVPthink ...1961:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1962LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All1963DTall right1964NNright .1965SENT. Well1966UHwell ,1967,, then1968RBthen that1969DTthat 's1970VBZbe the1971DTthe question1972NNquestion .1973SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1974LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...1975:... and1976CCand I1977PPI think1978VVPthink your1979PP$your examples1980NNSexample ...1981:... [JUSTICE BREYER]1982LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] That1983DTthat 's1984VBZbe the1985DTthe question1986NNquestion .1987SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]1988LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah1989NPYeah .1990SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]1991LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] That1992DTthat 's1993VBZbe the1994DTthe question1995NNquestion .1996SENT. And1997CCand in1998INin this1999DTthis case2000NNcase ,2001,, there2002EXthere 's2003VBZbe a2004DTa statute2005NNstatute ,2006,, and2007CCand the2008DTthe statute2009NNstatute says2010VVZsay that2011IN/thatthat the2012DTthe Secretary2013NPSecretary ...2014:... at2015INat least2016JJSleast on2017INon this2018DTthis form2019NNform ,2020,, the2021DTthe main2022JJmain form2023NNform ,2024,, he2025PPhe shall2026MDshall use2027VVuse administrative2028JJadministrative records2029NNSrecord ,2030,, unless2031INunless ...2032:... it2033PPit says2034VVZsay to2035TOto the2036DTthe maximum2037JJmaximum extent2038NNextent possible2039JJpossible .2040SENT. Do2041VVPdo n't2042RBn't ask2043VVask direct2044JJdirect questions2045NNSquestion .2046SENT. Use2047VVuse administrative2048JJadministrative records2049NNSrecord ,2050,, because2051INbecause they2052PPthey want2053VVPwant to2054TOto keep2055VVkeep it2056PPit short2057JJshort .2058SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2059LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right2060NPRight .2061SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2062LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] To2063TOTo the2064DTthe maximum2065JJmaximum extent2066NNextent possible2067JJpossible .2068SENT. So2069RBso I2070PPI have2071VHPhave two2072CDtwo rather2073RBrather technical2074JJtechnical questions2075NNSquestion in2076INin what2077WPwhat I2078PPI think2079VVPthink is2080VBZbe the2081DTthe heart2082NNheart of2083INof this2084DTthis case2085NNcase .2086SENT. It2087PPit 's2088VBZbe a2089DTa technical2090JJtechnical case2091NNcase .2092SENT. All2093DTall right2094NNright .2095SENT. The2096DTthe first2097JJfirst question2098NNquestion is2099VBZbe the2100DTthe Secretary2101NPSecretary ,2102,, I2103PPI gather2104VVPgather from2105INfrom the2106DTthe record2107NNrecord ...2108:... and2109CCand we2110PPwe 've2111VHPhave looked2112VVNlook at2113INat it2114PPit ,2115,, my2116PP$my office2117NNoffice ,2118,, pretty2119RBpretty carefully2120RBcarefully ...2121:... is2122VBZbe told2123VVNtell by2124INby the2125DTthe Census2126NPCensus Bureau2127NPBureau in2128INin three2129CDthree studies2130NNSstudy that2131IN/thatthat if2132INif you2133PPyou ask2134VVPask this2135DTthis question2136NNquestion on2137INon the2138DTthe regular2139JJregular form2140NNform ,2141,, you2142PPyou will2143MDwill get2144VVget back2145RBback fewer2146JJRfew answers2147NNSanswer .2148SENT. And2149CCand they2150PPthey extrapolated2151VVDextrapolate to2152TOto do2153VVdo that2154IN/thatthat from2155INfrom the2156DTthe other2157JJother surveys2158NNSsurvey and2159CCand so2160RBso forth2161RBforth ,2162,, and2163CCand those2164DTthose extrapolations2165NNSextrapolation ,2166,, you2167PPyou know2168VVPknow ,2169,, holding2170VVGhold for2171INfor everything2172NNeverything constant2173JJconstant ,2174,, showed2175VVDshow that2176IN/thatthat the2177DTthe non-citizens2178NNSnon-citizens often2179RBoften did2180VVDdo n't2181RBn't say2182VVsay they2183PPthey were2184VBDbe non-citizens2185JJnon-citizens .2186SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2187LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh2188NPUh-huh .2189SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2190LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And2191CCand some2192DTsome did2193VVDdo n't2194RBn't return2195VVreturn it2196PPit at2197INat all2198DTall .2199SENT. Now2200RBnow I2201PPI have2202VHPhave n't2203RBn't seen2204VVNsee any2205DTany evidence2206NNevidence to2207TOto the2208DTthe contrary2209NNcontrary .2210SENT. So2211RBso I2212PPI 'm2213VBPbe asking2214VVGask you2215PPyou where2216WRBwhere the2217DTthe evidence2218NNevidence is2219VBZbe on2220INon that2221DTthat .2222SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2223LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure2224NPSure .2225SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2226LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And2227CCand as2228RBas to2229TOto the2230DTthe second2231JJsecond ,2232,, same2233JJsame question2234NNquestion ,2235,, the2236DTthe second2237NNsecond is2238VBZbe that2239IN/thatthat several2240JJseveral surveys2241NNSsurvey ,2242,, including2243VVGinclude Dr2244NPDr .2245SENT. Abowd2246NNAbowd ,2247,, told2248VVDtell the2249DTthe Secretary2250NPSecretary :2251:: Mr2252NPMr .2253SENT. Secretary2254NPSecretary ,2255,, if2256INif you2257PPyou add2258VVPadd the2259DTthe question2260NNquestion to2261TOto the2262DTthe census2263NNcensus ,2264,, the2265DTthe short2266JJshort form2267NNform ,2268,, the2269DTthe direct2270JJdirect form2271NNform ,2272,, you2273PPyou will2274MDwill discover2275VVdiscover that2276IN/thatthat even2277RBeven the2278DTthe information2279NNinformation you2280PPyou want2281VVPwant about2282INabout citizenship2283NNcitizenship is2284VBZbe worse2285JJRbad than2286INthan if2287INif you2288PPyou just2289RBjust look2290VVPlook at2291INat the2292DTthe administrative2293JJadministrative record2294NNrecord .2295SENT. Now2296RBnow how2297WRBhow can2298MDcan that2299RBthat be2300VBbe ?2301SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2302LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure2303NPSure .2304SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2305LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well2306UHWell ,2307,, A2308NPA ,2309,, they2310PPthey say2311VVPsay 132312CD@card@ million2313CDmillion people2314NNSpeople ,2315,, it2316PPit 'll2317MDwill be2318VBbe a2319DTa wash2320NNwash because2321INbecause you2322PPyou won2323MDwill 't2324RB't get2325VVget information2326NNinformation either2327CCeither way2328NNway .2329SENT. They2330PPthey won2331MDwill 't2332RB't return2333VVreturn it2334PPit and2335CCand you2336PPyou do2337VVPdo n't2338RBn't have2339VHhave it2340PPit over2341RPover on2342INon the2343DTthe administrative2344JJadministrative part2345NNpart .2346SENT. But2347CCbut ,2348,, as2349INas to2350TOto 222351CD@card@ million2352CDmillion ,2353,, which2354WDTwhich you2355PPyou highlight2356VVPhighlight in2357INin your2358PP$your brief2359NNbrief ...2360:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2361LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah2362NPYeah .2363SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2364LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...2365:... what2366WPwhat about2367INabout them2368PPthem ?2369SENT? And2370CCand as2371INas to2372TOto them2373PPthem ,2374,, what2375WPwhat Dr2376NNDr .2377SENT. Abowd2378NNAbowd says2379VVZsay he2380PPhe says2381VVZsay ,2382,, and2383CCand I2384PPI saw2385VVDsee it2386PPit in2387INin the2388DTthe record2389NNrecord ,2390,, he2391PPhe says2392VVZsay ,2393,, as2394RBas to2395TOto those2396DTthose 222397CD@card@ million2398CDmillion ,2399,, I2400PPI 'll2401MDwill tell2402VVtell you2403PPyou what2404WPwhat ,2405,, you2406PPyou just2407RBjust look2408VVPlook to2409TOto the2410DTthe census2411NNcensus returns2412NNSreturn and2413CCand you2414PPyou 're2415VBPbe going2416VVGgo to2417TOto find2418VVfind it2419PPit not2420RBnot that2421IN/thatthat accurate2422JJaccurate because2423INbecause some2424DTsome are2425VBPbe not2426RBnot going2427VVGgo to2428TOto tell2429VVtell the2430DTthe truth2431NNtruth .2432SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2433LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right2434NPRight .2435SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2436LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So2437RBso go2438VVPgo look2439NNlook at2440INat the2441DTthe administrative2442JJadministrative returns2443NNSreturn ,2444,, and2445CCand they2446PPthey won2447MDwill 't2448RB't be2449VBbe there2450RBthere ,2451,, but2452CCbut we2453PPwe 'll2454MDwill model2455VVmodel them2456PPthem .2457SENT. Now2458RBnow the2459DTthe question2460NNquestion is2461VBZbe ,2462,, which2463WDTwhich is2464VBZbe more2465RBRmore accurate2466JJaccurate as2467RBas to2468TOto citizenship2469NNcitizenship ?2470SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2471LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure2472NPSure .2473SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2474LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] The2475DTthe models2476NNSmodel over2477INover here2478RBhere on2479INon the2480DTthe administrative2481JJadministrative part2482NNpart or2483CCor the2484DTthe answer2485NNanswer to2486TOto the2487DTthe questions2488NNSquestion on2489INon the2490DTthe census2491NNcensus part2492NNpart ?2493SENT? And2494CCand here2495RBhere is2496VBZbe what2497WPwhat Dr2498NNDr .2499SENT. Abowd2500NNAbowd says2501VVZsay :2502:: 222503CD@card@ million2504CDmillion ,2505,, he2506PPhe 's2507VBZbe asked2508VVNask ,2509,, if2510INif you2511PPyou follow2512VVPfollow your2513PP$your practice2514NNpractice ,2515,, you2516PPyou 'd2517MDwould use2518VVuse a2519DTa survey2520NNsurvey response2521NNresponse ,2522,, not2523RBnot model2524VVmodel it2525PPit ;2526:; is2527VBZbe that2528DTthat right2529NNright ?2530SENT? That2531DTthat 's2532VBZbe right2533JJright .2534SENT. And2535CCand in2536INin your2537PP$your opinion2538NNopinion ,2539,, that2540WDTthat would2541MDwould be2542VBbe less2543RBRless accurate2544JJaccurate than2545INthan if2546INif you2547PPyou just2548RBjust went2549VVDgo with2550INwith modeling2551VVGmodel over2552RPover on2553INon the2554DTthe administrative2555JJadministrative part2556NNpart ?2557SENT? That2558DTthat 's2559VBZbe correct2560JJcorrect .2561SENT. And2562CCand the2563DTthe conclusion2564NNconclusion of2565INof the2566DTthe Census2567NPCensus Bureau2568NPBureau remains2569VVZremain that2570IN/thatthat adding2571VVGadd the2572DTthe question2573NNquestion over2574INover here2575RBhere ,2576,, even2577RBeven if2578INif you2579PPyou use2580VVPuse the2581DTthe administrative2582JJadministrative part2583NNpart too2584RBtoo ,2585,, produces2586VVZproduce worse2587JJRbad citizen2588NNcitizen ...2589:... worse2590JJRbad data2591NNSdatum on2592INon citizenship2593NNcitizenship than2594INthan just2595RBjust using2596VVGuse the2597DTthe administrative2598JJadministrative data2599NNSdatum alone2600RBalone ?2601SENT? That2602DTthat 's2603VBZbe the2604DTthe question2605NNquestion .2606SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2607LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yep2608NPYep .2609SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2610LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Answer2611NNanswer from2612INfrom the2613DTthe expert2614NNexpert :2615:: "2616``" That2617DTthat 's2618VBZbe correct2619JJcorrect .2620SENT. "2621``" So2622RBso I2623PPI read2624VVPread that2625IN/thatthat ,2626,, and2627CCand ,2628,, you2629PPyou know2630VVPknow ,2631,, the2632DTthe judges2633NNSjudge below2634RBbelow have2635VHPhave listed2636VVNlist 142637CD@card@ other2638JJother examples2639NNSexample or2640CCor other2641JJother examples2642NNSexample ,2643,, many2644JJmany other2645JJother examples2646NNSexample ,2647,, and2648CCand ...2649:... and2650CCand ...2651:... but2652CCbut that2653DTthat 's2654VBZbe the2655DTthe most2656RBSmost direct2657JJdirect .2658SENT. So2659RBso where2660WRBwhere in2661INin the2662DTthe decision2663NNdecision memo2664NNmemo did2665VVDdo the2666DTthe Secretary2667NPSecretary address2668VVaddress that2669DTthat problem2670NNproblem ?2671SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2672LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So2673RBso ,2674,, sure2675RBsure ,2676,, Your2677PP$your Honor2678NPHonor .2679SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2680LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Both2681CCboth problems2682NNSproblem .2683SENT. There2684EXthere are2685VBPbe two2686CDtwo problems2687NNSproblem .2688SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2689LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes2690UHyes ,2691,, yes2692UHyes .2693SENT. And2694CCand I2695PPI 'd2696MDwould like2697VVlike to2698TOto address2699VVaddress that2700DTthat evidentiary2701JJevidentiary issue2702NNissue first2703RBfirst and2704CCand then2705RBthen I2706PPI would2707MDwould like2708VVlike to2709TOto come2710VVcome back2711RBback to2712TOto your2713PP$your question2714NNquestion about2715INabout Section2716NPSection 62717CD6 (2718(( c2719LSc )2720)) of2721INof the2722DTthe statute2723NNstatute as2724INas well2725RBwell .2726SENT. If2727INif you2728PPyou look2729VVPlook at2730INat the2731DTthe Joint2732NPJoint Appendix2733NPAppendix page2734NNpage 1482735CD@card@ ,2736,, the2737DTthe ...2738:... the2739DTthe Census2740NPCensus Bureau2741NPBureau staff2742NNstaff specifically2743RBspecifically told2744VVDtell the2745DTthe Secretary2746NPSecretary ...2747:... and2748CCand here2749RBhere I2750PPI 'm2751VBPbe quoting2752VVGquote from2753INfrom it2754PPit ...2755:... that2756IN/thatthat it2757PPit "2758``" cannot2759MDcan quantify2760VVquantify the2761DTthe relative2762JJrelative magnitude2763NNmagnitude of2764INof the2765DTthe errors2766NNSerror across2767INacross alternatives2768NNSalternative "2769''" ...2770:... and2771CCand he2772PPhe 's2773VBZbe talking2774VVGtalk about2775INabout Alternatives2776NNSalternative C2777NPC and2778CCand D2779NPD ...2780:... "2781``" at2782INat this2783DTthis time2784NNtime .2785SENT. "2786''" So2787RBso what2788WPwhat he2789PPhe was2790VBDbe saying2791VVGsay was2792VBDbe that2793IN/thatthat I2794PPI do2795VVPdo n't2796RBn't know2797VVknow if2798INif the2799DTthe response2800NNresponse error2801NNerror from2802INfrom asking2803VVGask the2804DTthe question2805NNquestion is2806VBZbe going2807VVGgo to2808TOto be2809VBbe more2810JJRmore or2811CCor less2812JJRless than2813INthan the2814DTthe prediction2815NNprediction error2816NNerror if2817INif I2818PPI use2819VVPuse ...2820:... [JUSTICE BREYER]2821LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] No2822RBno ,2823,, he2824PPhe said2825VVDsay just2826RBjust what2827WPwhat you2828PPyou said2829VVDsay .2830SENT. He2831PPhe said2832VVDsay ,2833,, I2834PPI cannot2835MDcan quantify2836VVquantify it2837PPit .2838SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2839LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure2840NPSure .2841SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2842LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And2843CCand that2844WDTthat means2845VVZmean he2846PPhe can2847MDcan 't2848RB't put2849VVDput scientific2850JJscientific numbers2851NNSnumber .2852SENT. Of2853INof course2854NNcourse ,2855,, they2856PPthey said2857VVDsay that2858IN/thatthat they2859PPthey wanted2860VVDwant two2861CDtwo years2862NNSyear to2863TOto test2864VVtest it2865PPit ,2866,, but2867CCbut they2868PPthey can2869MDcan 't2870RB't quantify2871VVquantify it2872PPit .2873SENT. But2874CCbut we2875PPwe do2876VVPdo have2877VHhave three2878CDthree studies2879NNSstudy ,2880,, and2881CCand those2882DTthose studies2883NNSstudy look2884VVPlook at2885INat what2886WPwhat happened2887VVDhappen when2888WRBwhen you2889PPyou asked2890VVDask this2891DTthis question2892NNquestion before2893RBbefore ,2894,, and2895CCand what2896WPwhat happened2897VVDhappen when2898WRBwhen you2899PPyou asked2900VVDask this2901DTthis question2902NNquestion before2903RBbefore ...2904:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2905LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right2906RBright .2907SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2908LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...2909:... is2910VBZbe the2911DTthe response2912NNresponse rate2913NNrate fell2914VVDfall .2915SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2916LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And2917CCand so2918RBso ,2919,, if2920INif I2921PPI could2922MDcould complete2923VVcomplete my2924PP$my answer2925NNanswer ,2926,, what2927WPwhat the2928DTthe Bureau2929NPBureau staff2930NNstaff told2931VVDtell him2932PPhim was2933VBDbe that2934IN/thatthat they2935PPthey did2936VVDdo n't2937RBn't know2938VVknow which2939WDTwhich one2940CDone would2941MDwould be2942VBbe better2943JJRgood or2944CCor worse2945JJRbad .2946SENT. So2947RBso what2948WPwhat the2949DTthe Secretary2950NPSecretary ...2951:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2952LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I2953PPI 'm2954VBPbe sorry2955JJsorry .2956SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]2957LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Where2958WRBwhere does2959VVZdo it2960PPit say2961VVPsay that2962RBthat ?2963SENT? Where2964WRBwhere does2965VVZdo it2966PPit say2967VVPsay that2968RBthat ?2969SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2970LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Maybe2971RBmaybe you2972PPyou could2973MDcould ,2974,, if2975INif you2976PPyou do2977VVPdo n't2978RBn't mind2979VVmind ,2980,, maybe2981RBmaybe you2982PPyou could2983MDcould complete2984VVcomplete your2985PP$your answer2986NNanswer .2987SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]2988LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure2989NPSure .2990SENT. That2991DTthat is2992VBZbe specifically2993RBspecifically ,2994,, Your2995PP$your Honor2996NPHonor ,2997,, at2998INat page2999NNpage 1483000CD@card@ of3001INof the3002DTthe Joint3003NPJoint Appendix3004NPAppendix ,3005,, where3006WRBwhere it3007PPit specifically3008RBspecifically says3009VVZsay and3010CCand explains3011VVZexplain that3012IN/thatthat it3013PPit cannot3014MDcan quantify3015VVquantify the3016DTthe relative3017JJrelative magnitude3018NNmagnitude of3019INof the3020DTthe errors3021NNSerror across3022INacross the3023DTthe alternatives3024NNSalternative ,3025,, Alternatives3026NNSalternative C3027NPC and3028CCand D3029NPD ,3030,, at3031INat this3032DTthis time3033NNtime because3034INbecause it3035PPit did3036VVDdo n't3037RBn't know3038VVknow if3039INif the3040DTthe response3041NNresponse errors3042NNSerror from3043INfrom asking3044VVGask the3045DTthe question3046NNquestion would3047MDwould be3048VBbe more3049JJRmore or3050CCor less3051JJRless than3052INthan the3053DTthe prediction3054NNprediction errors3055NNSerror from3056INfrom the3057DTthe model3058NNmodel .3059SENT. So3060RBso what3061WPwhat the3062DTthe Secretary3063NPSecretary knew3064VVDknow was3065VBDbe two3066CDtwo basic3067JJbasic things3068NNSthing ...3069:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3070LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I3071PPI 'm3072VBPbe sorry3073JJsorry .3074SENT. They3075PPthey ...3076:... they3077PPthey have3078VHPhave prediction3079NNprediction models3080NNSmodel .3081SENT. They3082PPthey say3083VVPsay multiple3084JJmultiple times3085NNStime ,3086,, at3087INat least3088JJSleast three3089CDthree ,3090,, if3091INif not3092RBnot more3093JJRmore ,3094,, that3095DTthat Alternative3096NPAlternative D3097NPD ,3098,, which3099WDTwhich was3100VBDbe the3101DTthe Secretary3102NPSecretary 's3103POS's alternative3104NNalternative ,3105,, and3106CCand their3107PP$their Alternative3108NPAlternative C3109NPC ,3110,, so3111RBso everybody3112NNeverybody 's3113VBZbe clear3114JJclear ,3115,, C3116NPC was3117VBDbe simply3118RBsimply to3119TOto use3120VVuse administrative3121JJadministrative records3122NNSrecord ,3123,, D3124NPD was3125VBDbe the3126DTthe Secretary3127NPSecretary 's3128POS's idea3129NNidea of3130INof adding3131VVGadd the3132DTthe question3133NNquestion to3134TOto the3135DTthe survey3136NNsurvey plus3137CCplus administrative3138JJadministrative records3139NNSrecord .3140SENT. And3141CCand on3142INon the3143DTthe prediction3144NNprediction models3145NNSmodel ,3146,, which3147WDTwhich is3148VBZbe what3149WPwhat scientists3150NNSscientist can3151MDcan do3152VVdo ,3153,, each3154DTeach and3155CCand every3156DTevery time3157NNtime they3158PPthey said3159VVDsay D3160NPD would3161MDwould be3162VBbe less3163RBRless accurate3164JJaccurate than3165INthan C3166NPC .3167SENT. Now3168RBnow you3169PPyou 're3170VBPbe asking3171VVGask ...3172:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3173LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Except3174INexcept for3175INfor the3176DTthe one3177CDone time3178NNtime where3179WRBwhere it3180PPit mattered3181VVDmatter ,3182,, Your3183PP$your Honor3184NPHonor ,3185,, in3186INin the3187DTthe key3188JJkey differences3189NNSdifference ...3190:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3191LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But3192CCbut comparative3193JJcomparative ...3194:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3195LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...3196:... memo3197NNmemo ,3198,, where3199WRBwhere they3200PPthey specifically3201RBspecifically said3202VVDsay that3203IN/thatthat they3204PPthey did3205VVDdo not3206RBnot know3207VVknow if3208INif C3209NPC was3210VBDbe better3211JJRgood than3212INthan D3213NPD .3214SENT. And3215CCand so3216INso what3217WPwhat the3218DTthe Secretary3219NPSecretary knew3220VVDknow ...3221:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3222LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No3223UHNo ,3224,, no3225UHno ,3226,, no3227UHno ,3228,, no3229UHno ,3230,, that3231WDTthat 's3232VBZbe not3233RBnot what3234WPwhat he3235PPhe said3236VVDsay .3237SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3238LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] That3239DTthat is3240VBZbe exactly3241RBexactly what3242WPwhat he3243PPhe said3244VVDsay .3245SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3246LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] He3247PPhe said3248VVDsay you3249PPyou can3250MDcan 't3251RB't ...3252:... you3253PPyou 're3254VBPbe ...3255:... the3256DTthe words3257NNSword "3258``" comparative3259JJcomparative errors3260NNSerror "3261``" have3262VHPhave a3263DTa different3264JJdifferent meaning3265NNmeaning than3266INthan you3267PPyou 're3268VBPbe giving3269VVGgive it3270PPit .3271SENT. Comparative3272JJcomparative errors3273NNSerror are3274VBPbe I3275PPI 'm3276VBPbe comparing3277VVGcompare this3278DTthis type3279NNtype of3280INof error3281NNerror to3282TOto that3283DTthat type3284NNtype of3285INof error3286NNerror and3287CCand what3288WPwhat they3289PPthey compare3290VVPcompare each3291DTeach other3292JJother to3293TOto .3294SENT. You3295PPyou can3296MDcan 't3297RB't do3298VVPdo that3299IN/thatthat to3300TOto a3301DTa scientific3302JJscientific certainty3303NNcertainty .3304SENT. But3305CCbut you3306PPyou can3307MDcan have3308VHhave predictive3309JJpredictive models3310NNSmodel ,3311,, which3312WDTwhich is3313VBZbe what3314WPwhat they3315PPthey did3316VVDdo ,3317,, and3318CCand they3319PPthey ...3320:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3321LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right3322RBright .3323SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3324LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...3325:... showed3326VVDshow you3327PPyou ,3328,, time3329NNtime and3330CCand again3331RBagain they3332PPthey told3333VVDtell you3334PPyou ,3335,, you3336PPyou add3337VVPadd the3338DTthe survey3339NNsurvey question3340NNquestion ,3341,, it3342PPit 's3343VBZbe going3344VVGgo to3345TOto be3346VBbe less3347RBRless accurate3348JJaccurate than3349INthan just3350RBjust relying3351VVGrely on3352INon administrative3353JJadministrative records3354NNSrecord .3355SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3356LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Your3357PP$your Honor3358NPHonor ,3359,, I3360PPI ...3361:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3362LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So3363RBso how3364WRBhow do3365VVPdo you3366PPyou ...3367:... how3368WRBhow do3369VVPdo you3370PPyou take3371VVtake or3372CCor pluck3373VVpluck out3374RPout of3375INof what3376WPwhat they3377PPthey say3378VVPsay in3379INin one3380CDone sentence3381NNsentence ,3382,, if3383INif you3384PPyou 're3385VBPbe the3386DTthe Secretary3387NPSecretary ,3388,, and3389CCand rely3390VVrely on3391INon that3392DTthat one3393CDone sentence3394NNsentence and3395CCand ignore3396VVignore the3397DTthe wealth3398NNwealth of3399INof statistics3400NNSstatistic ,3401,, graphs3402NNSgraph ,3403,, testimony3404NNtestimony ,3405,, proof3406NNproof ,3407,, control3408NNcontrol studies3409NNSstudy of3410INof how3411WRBhow ...3412:... how3413WRBhow these3414DTthese response3415NNresponse rates3416NNSrate came3417VVDcome about3418RBabout and3419CCand decide3420VVPdecide that3421IN/thatthat that3422DTthat one3423CDone sentence3424NNsentence is3425VBZbe enough3426JJenough to3427TOto justify3428VVjustify ignoring3429VVGignore everything3430NNeverything else3431RBelse ?3432SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3433LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Because3434INbecause ,3435,, Your3436PP$your Honor3437NPHonor ,3438,, I3439PPI respectfully3440RBrespectfully disagree3441VVPdisagree with3442INwith your3443PP$your reading3444NNreading of3445INof the3446DTthe administrative3447JJadministrative record3448NNrecord .3449SENT. If3450INif you3451PPyou read3452VVPread through3453INthrough the3454DTthe key3455JJkey differences3456NNSdifference memo3457NNmemo ,3458,, what3459WPwhat the3460DTthe Bureau3461NPBureau staff3462NNstaff is3463VBZbe telling3464VVGtell to3465TOto the3466DTthe Secretary3467NPSecretary ...3468:... and3469CCand ,3470,, look3471VVPlook ,3472,, there3473EXthere 's3474VBZbe no3475DTno question3476NNquestion that3477IN/thatthat the3478DTthe Bureau3479NPBureau staff3480NNstaff preferred3481VVDprefer not3482RBnot to3483TOto have3484VHhave this3485DTthis question3486NNquestion on3487INon the3488DTthe census3489NNcensus ...3490:... but3491CCbut what3492WPwhat they3493PPthey were3494VBDbe telling3495VVGtell the3496DTthe Secretary3497NPSecretary was3498VBDbe that3499IN/thatthat they3500PPthey could3501MDcould n't3502RBn't tell3503VVtell which3504WDTwhich model3505NNmodel would3506MDwould be3507VBbe more3508JJRmore or3509CCor less3510RBRless accurate3511JJaccurate .3512SENT. But3513CCbut they3514PPthey did3515VVDdo give3516VVgive him3517PPhim specific3518JJspecific information3519NNinformation .3520SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3521LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3522CCbut ,3523,, General3524NPGeneral ...3525:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3526LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] They3527PPthey told3528VVDtell him3529PPhim that3530RBthat ...3531:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3532LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Please3533VVplease finish3534NNfinish .3535SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3536LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] They3537PPthey told3538VVDtell him3539PPhim that3540IN/thatthat if3541INif he3542PPhe actually3543RBactually asked3544VVDask the3545DTthe question3546NNquestion for3547INfor 303548CD@card@ ...3549:... for3550INfor 223551CD@card@ .3552SENT. 23553CD2 million3554CDmillion people3555NNSpeople for3556INfor whom3557WPwhom no3558DTno administrative3559JJadministrative records3560NNSrecord existed3561VVDexist ,3562,, he3563PPhe would3564MDwould have3565VHhave got3566VVNget actual3567JJactual answers3568NNSanswer at3569INat 983570CD@card@ percent3571NNpercent accuracy3572NNaccuracy .3573SENT. And3574CCand that3575IN/thatthat the3576DTthe alternative3577NNalternative ,3578,, their3579PP$their preferred3580JJpreferred alternative3581NNalternative ,3582,, was3583VBDbe to3584TOto use3585VVuse a3586DTa statistical3587JJstatistical model3588NNmodel to3589TOto estimate3590VVestimate citizenship3591NNcitizenship ,3592,, not3593RBnot just3594RBjust for3595INfor the3596DTthe 223597CD@card@ .3598SENT. 23599CD2 million3600CDmillion but3601CCbut for3602INfor 353603CD@card@ million3604CDmillion ,3605,, but3606CCbut they3607PPthey had3608VHDhave not3609RBnot yet3610RByet constructed3611VVNconstruct that3612IN/thatthat model3613NNmodel and3614CCand did3615VVDdo n't3616RBn't know3617VVknow what3618WPwhat the3619DTthe error3620NNerror rate3621NNrate in3622INin that3623DTthat model3624NNmodel would3625MDwould be3626VBbe .3627SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3628LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3629CCbut I3630PPI ...3631:... I3632PPI ...3633:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3634LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And3635CCand so3636RBso the3637DTthe ...3638:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3639LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...3640:... I3641PPI think3642VVPthink ,3643,, General3644NPGeneral ,3645,, I3646PPI mean3647VVPmean ,3648,, 983649CD@card@ percent3650NNpercent sounds3651VVZsound awfully3652RBawfully high3653JJhigh ,3654,, but3655CCbut it3656PPit 's3657VBZbe kind3658NNkind of3659INof irrelevant3660JJirrelevant too3661RBtoo .3662SENT. The3663DTthe question3664NNquestion is3665VBZbe whether3666INwhether ,3667,, if3668INif you3669PPyou used3670VVDuse the3671DTthe model3672NNmodel ,3673,, it3674PPit would3675MDwould be3676VBbe greater3677JJRgreat than3678INthan 983679CD@card@ percent3680NNpercent .3681SENT. It3682PPit would3683MDwould be3684VBbe 993685CD@card@ .3686SENT. 53687CD5 percent3688NNpercent .3689SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3690LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right3691NPRight .3692SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3693LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Because3694INbecause then3695RBthen the3696DTthe Secretary3697NPSecretary would3698MDwould have3699VHhave no3700DTno basis3701NNbasis for3702INfor saying3703VVGsay that3704IN/thatthat you3705PPyou should3706MDshould use3707VVuse the3708DTthe question3709NNquestion rather3710RBrather than3711INthan the3712DTthe model3713NNmodel .3714SENT. And3715CCand as3716RBas to3717TOto that3718WDTthat ,3719,, as3720INas I3721PPI think3722VVPthink my3723PP$my colleagues3724NNScolleague are3725VBPbe suggesting3726VVGsuggest ,3727,, there3728EXthere is3729VBZbe a3730DTa bottom-line3731JJbottom-line conclusion3732NNconclusion from3733INfrom the3734DTthe Census3735NPCensus Bureau3736NPBureau ,3737,, and3738CCand the3739DTthe bottom-line3740JJbottom-line conclusion3741NNconclusion is3742VBZbe that3743IN/thatthat Alternative3744NPAlternative D3745NPD ,3746,, which3747WDTwhich is3748VBZbe the3749DTthe proposal3750NNproposal that3751IN/thatthat the3752DTthe Secretary3753NPSecretary eventually3754RBeventually took3755VVDtake ,3756,, would3757MDwould still3758RBstill have3759VHhave all3760PDTall the3761DTthe negative3762JJnegative cost3763NNcost and3764CCand quality3765NNquality implications3766NNSimplication of3767INof Alternative3768NPAlternative B3769NPB ,3770,, which3771WDTwhich was3772VBDbe simply3773RBsimply adding3774VVGadd the3775DTthe question3776NNquestion alone3777RBalone ,3778,, and3779CCand would3780MDwould result3781VVresult in3782INin poorer3783JJRpoor quality3784NNquality citizenship3785NNcitizenship data3786NNSdatum than3787INthan Alternative3788NPAlternative C3789NPC ,3790,, which3791WDTwhich is3792VBZbe just3793RBjust using3794VVGuse the3795DTthe administrative3796JJadministrative records3797NNSrecord plus3798CCplus the3799DTthe modeling3800NNmodeling .3801SENT. So3802RBso there3803EXthere is3804VBZbe a3805DTa bottom-line3806JJbottom-line conclusion3807NNconclusion from3808INfrom the3809DTthe Census3810NPCensus Bureau3811NPBureau .3812SENT. And3813CCand it3814PPit seems3815VVZseem as3816RBas though3817INthough what3818WPwhat the3819DTthe Secretary3820NPSecretary needs3821VVZneed is3822VBZbe some3823DTsome ...3824:... I3825PPI mean3826VVPmean ,3827,, a3828DTa Secretary3829NPSecretary can3830MDcan deviate3831VVdeviate ...3832:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3833LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh3834NPUh-huh .3835SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3836LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...3837:... from3838INfrom his3839PP$his experts3840NNSexpert '3841POS' recommendations3842NNSrecommendation and3843CCand from3844INfrom his3845PP$his experts3846NNSexpert '3847POS' bottom-line3848JJbottom-line conclusions3849NNSconclusion .3850SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3851LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right3852NPRight .3853SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3854LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But3855CCbut the3856DTthe Secretary3857NPSecretary needs3858VVZneed reasons3859NNSreason to3860TOto do3861VVdo that3862IN/thatthat ,3863,, and3864CCand I3865PPI searched3866VVDsearch the3867DTthe record3868NNrecord and3869CCand I3870PPI do3871VVPdo n't3872RBn't see3873VVsee any3874DTany reason3875NNreason .3876SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]3877LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure3878NPSure .3879SENT. And3880CCand ,3881,, Your3882PP$your Honor3883NPHonor ,3884,, so3885RBso I3886PPI want3887VVPwant to3888TOto just3889RBjust finish3890VVfinish what3891WPwhat I3892PPI was3893VBDbe saying3894VVGsay instantly3895RBinstantly before3896RBbefore because3897INbecause I3898PPI think3899VVPthink it3900PPit ...3901:... it3902PPit responds3903VVZrespond to3904TOto your3905PP$your question3906NNquestion ,3907,, and3908CCand then3909RBthen I3910PPI 'd3911MDwould like3912VVlike to3913TOto expand3914VVexpand directly3915RBdirectly in3916INin response3917NNresponse to3918TOto your3919PP$your question3920NNquestion .3921SENT. What3922WPWhat the3923DTthe Secretary3924NPSecretary concluded3925VVDconclude was3926VBDbe ,3927,, in3928INin the3929DTthe face3930NNface of3931INof uncertainty3932NNuncertainty ,3933,, he3934PPhe 'd3935MDwould rather3936RBrather go3937VVgo with3938INwith the3939DTthe bird3940NNbird in3941INin a3942DTa hand3943NNhand and3944CCand ask3945VVask the3946DTthe question3947NNquestion at3948INat percent3949NNpercent accuracy3950NNaccuracy than3951INthan an3952DTan unknown3953JJunknown and3954CCand untested3955JJuntested statistical3956JJstatistical model3957NNmodel .3958SENT. And3959CCand that3960DTthat 's3961VBZbe ,3962,, after3963INafter all3964DTall ,3965,, the3966DTthe same3967JJsame preference3968NNpreference that3969IN/thatthat the3970DTthe Enumeration3971NNenumeration Clause3972NNclause itself3973PPitself makes3974VVZmake ,3975,, a3976DTa prefer3977VVPprefer ...3978:... preference3979NNpreference for3980INfor actual3981JJactual counting3982NNcounting over3983INover estimation3984NNestimation ,3985,, because3986INbecause actual3987JJactual counting3988NNcounting is3989VBZbe less3990RBRless efficient3991JJefficient .3992SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3993LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But3994CCbut not3995RBnot census3996NNcensus ...3997:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3998LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well3999UHWell ,4000,, if4001INif I4002PPI can4003MDcan just4004RBjust add4005VVadd to4006TOto the4007DTthe question4008NNquestion ,4009,, and4010CCand ...4011:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4012LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] But4013CCbut to4014TOto go4015VVgo ...4016:... to4017TOto go4018VVgo to4019TOto your4020PP$your question4021NNquestion ...4022:... yes4023UHyes .4024SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4025LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4026:... and4027CCand let4028VVlet me4029PPme just4030RBjust add4031VVPadd to4032TOto it4033PPit a4034DTa bit4035NNbit because4036INbecause you4037PPyou said4038VVDsay ,4039,, you4040PPyou know4041VVPknow ,4042,, an4043DTan unknown4044JJunknown and4045CCand untested4046JJuntested statistical4047JJstatistical model4048NNmodel ,4049,, but4050CCbut here4051RBhere are4052VBPbe his4053PP$his experts4054NNSexpert in4055INin the4056DTthe Census4057NPCensus Bureau4058NPBureau saying4059VVGsay we4060PPwe are4061VBPbe confident4062JJconfident that4063IN/thatthat we4064PPwe can4065MDcan produce4066VVproduce a4067DTa statistical4068JJstatistical model4069NNmodel that4070WDTthat will4071MDwill produce4072VVproduce more4073RBRmore accurate4074JJaccurate bottom-line4075JJbottom-line results4076NNSresult ,4077,, and4078CCand ...4079:... and4080CCand ,4081,, again4082RBagain ,4083,, this4084DTthis bottom-line4085JJbottom-line conclusion4086NNconclusion is4087VBZbe the4088DTthe same4089JJsame .4090SENT. They4091PPthey know4092VVPknow what4093WPwhat kind4094NNkind of4095INof statistical4096JJstatistical models4097NNSmodel they4098PPthey can4099MDcan build4100VVbuild .4101SENT. And4102CCand this4103DTthis is4104VBZbe the4105DTthe bottom-line4106JJbottom-line conclusion4107NNconclusion .4108SENT. And4109CCand where4110WRBwhere is4111VBZbe the4112DTthe reason4113NNreason that4114IN/thatthat the4115DTthe Secretary4116NPSecretary gives4117VVZgive as4118INas to4119TOto why4120WRBwhy he4121PPhe rejects4122VVZreject that4123DTthat ?4124SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4125LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So4126INso there4127EXthere are4128VBPbe a4129DTa couple4130NNcouple of4131INof reasons4132NNSreason ,4133,, Your4134PP$your Honor4135NPHonor .4136SENT. First4137JJfirst of4138INof all4139DTall ,4140,, although4141INalthough they4142PPthey had4143VHDhave a4144DTa high4145JJhigh confidence4146NNconfidence that4147IN/thatthat they4148PPthey could4149MDcould create4150VVcreate a4151DTa good4152JJgood statistical4153JJstatistical model4154NNmodel ,4155,, they4156PPthey were4157VBDbe not4158RBnot able4159JJable to4160TOto tell4161VVtell him4162PPhim that4163IN/thatthat they4164PPthey thought4165VVDthink that4166IN/thatthat that4167DTthat model4168NNmodel would4169MDwould be4170VBbe any4171DTany better4172JJRgood or4173CCor worse4174RBRworse an4175DTan estimation4176NNestimation .4177SENT. They4178PPthey never4179RBnever were4180VBDbe able4181JJable to4182TOto say4183VVsay that4184WDTthat would4185MDwould ...4186:... it4187PPit would4188MDwould beat4189VVbeat that4190IN/thatthat 984191CD@card@ percent4192NNpercent number4193NNnumber .4194SENT. So4195RBso ,4196,, in4197INin the4198DTthe face4199NNface of4200INof that4201DTthat uncertainty4202NNuncertainty ,4203,, he4204PPhe reasonably4205RBreasonably chose4206VVDchoose ...4207:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4208LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I4209PPI think4210VVPthink what4211WPwhat I4212PPI read4213VVPread you4214PPyou is4215VBZbe them4216PPthem saying4217VVGsay that4218IN/thatthat they4219PPthey could4220MDcould beat4221VVbeat the4222DTthe percent4223NNpercent number4224NNnumber .4225SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4226LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] No4227NPNo ,4228,, Your4229PP$your Honor4230NPHonor ,4231,, I4232PPI do4233VVPdo n't4234RBn't think4235VVthink that4236DTthat 's4237VBZbe what4238WPwhat they4239PPthey 're4240VBPbe saying4241VVGsay there4242RBthere .4243SENT. I4244PPI think4245VVPthink what4246WPwhat they4247PPthey 're4248VBPbe saying4249VVGsay there4250EXthere is4251VBZbe that4252DTthat if4253INif you4254PPyou ask4255VVPask the4256DTthe citizenship4257NNcitizenship question4258NNquestion ,4259,, it4260PPit will4261MDwill make4262VVmake the4263DTthe model4264NNmodel a4265DTa little4266JJlittle bit4267NNbit less4268RBRless accurate4269JJaccurate because4270INbecause you4271PPyou 're4272VBPbe going4273VVGgo to4274TOto have4275VHhave fewer4276JJRfew people4277NNSpeople for4278INfor whom4279WPwhom there4280RBthere are4281VBPbe administrative4282JJadministrative records4283NNSrecord ,4284,, but4285CCbut you4286PPyou actually4287RBactually have4288VHhave to4289TOto use4290VVuse that4291DTthat model4292NNmodel for4293INfor a4294DTa much4295RBmuch smaller4296JJRsmall number4297NNnumber of4298INof people4299NNSpeople because4300INbecause you4301PPyou have4302VHPhave actual4303JJactual answers4304NNSanswer from4305INfrom 224306CD@card@ .4307SENT. 24308CD2 million4309CDmillion at4310INat 984311CD@card@ percent4312NNpercent accuracy4313NNaccuracy .4314SENT. So4315RBso that4316DTthat 's4317VBZbe what4318WPwhat they4319PPthey 're4320VBPbe saying4321VVGsay .4322SENT. But4323CCbut what4324WPwhat they4325PPthey could4326MDcould n't4327RBn't come4328VVcome down4329RPdown with4330INwith a4331DTa conclusion4332NNconclusion on4333RBon is4334VBZbe whether4335INwhether it4336PPit would4337MDwould be4338VBbe more4339JJRmore or4340CCor less4341RBRless accurate4342JJaccurate to4343TOto ask4344VVask the4345DTthe question4346NNquestion ...4347:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4348LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All4349DTall right4350NNright .4351SENT. When4352WRBwhen you4353PPyou answer4354VVPanswer this4355DTthis question4356NNquestion ...4357:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4358LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...4359:... or4360CCor use4361VVuse the4362DTthe model4363NNmodel .4364SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4365LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So4366RBso can4367MDcan I4368PPI just4369RBjust ask4370VVPask ...4371:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4372LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Would4373MDwould you4374PPyou answer4375VVanswer this4376DTthis question4377NNquestion ?4378SENT? Wait4379VVwait .4380SENT. I4381PPI am4382VBPbe trying4383VVGtry ,4384,, go4385VVgo back4386RBback to4387TOto my4388PP$my question4389NNquestion ,4390,, to4391TOto write4392VVwrite down4393RPdown the4394DTthe pages4395NNSpage .4396SENT. I4397PPI 'm4398VBPbe not4399RBnot going4400VVGgo to4401TOto ,4402,, you4403PPyou know4404VVPknow ,4405,, resolve4406VVresolve this4407DTthis right4408NNright now4409RBnow .4410SENT. So4411RBso ,4412,, when4413WRBwhen Justice4414NPJustice Kagan4415NPKagan asked4416VVDask the4417DTthe question4418NNquestion or4419CCor I4420PPI do4421VVPdo ,4422,, you4423PPyou 've4424VHPhave mentioned4425VVNmention page4426NNpage 1484427CD@card@ .4428SENT. Insofar4429RBinsofar in4430INin answer4431NNanswer to4432TOto her4433PP$her question4434NNquestion or4435CCor to4436TOto mine4437NNmine ,4438,, if4439INif you4440PPyou could4441MDcould give4442VVgive me4443PPme a4444DTa few4445JJfew things4446NNSthing to4447TOto read4448VVread to4449TOto show4450VVshow that4451IN/thatthat he4452PPhe did4453VVDdo consider4454VVconsider it4455PPit ,4456,, to4457TOto show4458VVshow that4459IN/thatthat he4460PPhe did4461VVDdo give4462VVgive a4463DTa reason4464NNreason for4465INfor rejecting4466VVGreject it4467PPit ,4468,, that4469WDTthat would4470MDwould be4471VBbe helpful4472JJhelpful to4473TOto me4474PPme .4475SENT. Sorry4476RBsorry .4477SENT. Go4478VVgo back4479RBback to4480TOto you4481PPyou .4482SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4483LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So4484RBso ,4485,, Your4486PP$your Honor4487NPHonor ,4488,, if4489INif you4490PPyou look4491VVPlook at4492INat Secretary4493NPSecretary Ross4494NPRoss 's4495POS's decision4496NNdecision memo4497NNmemo ,4498,, the4499DTthe pre-4500NNpre- ...4501:... the4502DTthe decision4503NNdecision memo4504NNmemo in4505INin the4506DTthe Petitioners4507NNSpetitioner '4508POS' appendix4509NNappendix ,4510,, I4511PPI would4512MDwould look4513VVlook to4514TOto a4515DTa couple4516NNcouple of4517INof things4518NNSthing .4519SENT. First4520JJfirst of4521INof all4522DTall ,4523,, I4524PPI would4525MDwould look4526VVlook to4527TOto his4528PP$his discussion4529NNdiscussion on4530INon pages4531NNSpage 555a4532NN555a with4533INwith the4534DTthe problems4535NNSproblem with4536INwith administrative4537JJadministrative records4538NNSrecord .4539SENT. The4540DTthe bureau4541NNbureau is4542VBZbe still4543RBstill evolving4544VVGevolve its4545PP$its use4546NNuse of4547INof administrative4548JJadministrative records4549NNSrecord ,4550,, and4551CCand the4552DTthe bureau4553NNbureau does4554VVZdo not4555RBnot yet4556RByet have4557VHhave complete4558JJcomplete administrative4559JJadministrative records4560NNSrecord data4561NNSdatum set4562VVNset for4563INfor the4564DTthe entire4565JJentire population4566NNpopulation .4567SENT. And4568CCand that4569DTthat points4570NNSpoint out4571INout why4572WRBwhy he4573PPhe preferred4574VVDprefer asking4575VVGask the4576DTthe question4577NNquestion and4578CCand getting4579VVGget actual4580JJactual answers4581NNSanswer from4582INfrom 224583CD@card@ .4584SENT. 24585CD2 million4586CDmillion people4587NNSpeople at4588INat 984589CD@card@ percent4590NNpercent accuracy4591NNaccuracy ,4592,, because4593INbecause you4594PPyou simply4595RBsimply did4596VVDdo n't4597RBn't have4598VHhave administrative4599JJadministrative records4600NNSrecord for4601INfor 354602CD@card@ million4603CDmillion people4604NNSpeople ,4605,, and4606CCand the4607DTthe bureau4608NNbureau had4609VHDhave not4610RBnot yet4611RByet figured4612VVNfigure out4613INout how4614WRBhow to4615TOto do4616VVdo that4617DTthat estimation4618NNestimation .4619SENT. He4620PPhe then4621RBthen goes4622VVZgo on4623RPon to4624TOto say4625VVsay on4626INon that4627DTthat same4628JJsame page4629NNpage ,4630,, more4631JJRmore than4632INthan 104633CD@card@ percent4634NNpercent of4635INof the4636DTthe American4637JJAmerican population4638NNpopulation ,4639,, some4640DTsome 254641CD@card@ million4642CDmillion voting-age4643NNvoting-age people4644NNSpeople ,4645,, would4646MDwould need4647VVneed to4648TOto have4649VHhave their4650PP$their citizen4651NNcitizen age4652NNage imputed4653VVNimpute by4654INby the4655DTthe Census4656NPCensus Bureau4657NPBureau .4658SENT. And4659CCand so4660RBso he4661PPhe was4662VBDbe making4663VVGmake clear4664JJclear that4665IN/thatthat he4666PPhe 'd4667MDwould rather4668RBrather go4669VVgo with4670INwith actual4671JJactual counting4672NNcounting than4673INthan imputation4674NNimputation .4675SENT. And4676CCand he4677PPhe pointed4678VVDpoint out4679RPout that4680IN/thatthat by4681INby proceeding4682VVGproceed with4683INwith his4684PP$his preferred4685JJpreferred course4686NNcourse ...4687:... this4688DTthis is4689VBZbe at4690INat page4691NNpage 556a4692NN556a of4693INof the4694DTthe Petitioners4695NNSpetitioner '4696POS' appendix4697NNappendix ...4698:... this4699DTthis may4700MDmay eliminate4701VVeliminate the4702DTthe need4703NNneed for4704INfor the4705DTthe Census4706NPCensus Bureau4707NPBureau to4708TOto have4709VHhave to4710TOto impute4711VVimpute an4712DTan answer4713NNanswer for4714INfor millions4715NNSmillion of4716INof people4717NNSpeople ,4718,, specifically4719RBspecifically about4720INabout 224721CD@card@ .4722SENT. 24723CD2 million4724CDmillion people4725NNSpeople for4726INfor whom4727WPwhom the4728DTthe bureau4729NNbureau ...4730:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]4731LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But4732CCbut ...4733:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4734LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...4735:... told4736VVDtell him4737PPhim he4738PPhe would4739MDwould get4740VVget actual4741JJactual answers4742NNSanswer at4743INat 984744CD@card@ percent4745NNpercent accuracy4746NNaccuracy .4747SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4748LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4749:... if4750INif I4751PPI may4752MDmay say4753VVsay ,4754,, General4755NPGeneral ,4756,, when4757WRBwhen you4758PPyou think4759VVPthink about4760INabout those4761DTthose statements4762NNSstatement ,4763,, I4764PPI mean4765VVPmean ,4766,, it4767PPit 's4768VBZbe just4769RBjust conclusory4770JJconclusory .4771SENT. It4772PPit 's4773VBZbe just4774RBjust like4775JJlike ,4776,, well4777RBwell ,4778,, this4779DTthis would4780MDwould eliminate4781VVeliminate the4782DTthe ...4783:... the4784DTthe ...4785:... the4786DTthe need4787NNneed for4788INfor modeling4789VVGmodel because4790INbecause we4791PPwe could4792MDcould ask4793VVask a4794DTa question4795NNquestion .4796SENT. But4797CCbut the4798DTthe question4799NNquestion is4800VBZbe ,4801,, why4802WRBwhy is4803VBZbe asking4804VVGask a4805DTa question4806NNquestion better4807RBRwell when4808WRBwhen you4809PPyou know4810VVPknow that4811IN/thatthat asking4812VVGask a4813DTa question4814NNquestion is4815VBZbe going4816VVGgo to4817TOto result4818VVresult in4819INin lots4820NNSlot of4821INof non-responses4822NNSnon-responses and4823CCand in4824INin lots4825NNSlot of4826INof false4827JJfalse reporting4828NNreporting ?4829SENT? And4830CCand so4831RBso you4832PPyou can4833MDcan 't4834RB't just4835RBjust go4836VVgo back4837RBback to4838TOto I4839PPI 'd4840MDwould rather4841RBrather ask4842VVask a4843DTa question4844NNquestion .4845SENT. You4846PPyou have4847VHPhave to4848TOto say4849VVsay why4850WRBwhy you4851PPyou 'd4852MDwould rather4853RBrather ask4854VVask a4855DTa question4856NNquestion and4857CCand what4858WPwhat benefits4859VVZbenefit it4860PPit has4861VHZhave to4862TOto ask4863VVask a4864DTa question4865NNquestion .4866SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4867LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right4868NPRight .4869SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4870LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And4871CCand if4872INif I4873PPI may4874MDmay say4875VVsay ...4876:... I4877PPI 'll4878MDwill just4879RBjust finish4880VVfinish here4881RBhere ,4882,, General4883NPGeneral ...4884:... I4885PPI mean4886VVPmean ,4887,, a4888DTa lot4889NNlot of4890INof your4891PP$your argument4892NNargument ...4893:... your4894PP$your briefs4895NNSbrief are4896VBPbe extremely4897RBextremely well4898RBwell done4899VVNdo .4900SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4901LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Thank4902VVthank you4903PPyou .4904SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4905LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But4906CCbut a4907DTa lot4908NNlot of4909INof your4910PP$your argument4911NNargument just4912RBjust do4913VVPdo not4914RBnot appear4915VVappear in4916INin the4917DTthe Secretary4918NPSecretary 's4919POS's decision4920NNdecision memo4921NNmemo .4922SENT. And4923CCand ...4924:... and4925CCand the4926DTthe fact4927NNfact that4928IN/thatthat SG4929NPSG lawyers4930NNSlawyer can4931MDcan come4932VVcome up4933RPup with4934INwith 604935CD@card@ pages4936NNSpage of4937INof explanation4938NNexplanation for4939INfor a4940DTa decision4941NNdecision ,4942,, that4943WDTthat 's4944VBZbe all4945DTall post4946NNpost hoc4947FWhoc rationalization4948NNrationalization .4949SENT. The4950DTthe question4951NNquestion is4952VBZbe ,4953,, what4954WPwhat did4955VVDdo the4956DTthe Secretary4957NPSecretary say4958VVPsay ?4959SENT? Where4960WRBwhere did4961VVDdo he4962PPhe say4963VVPsay it4964PPit ?4965SENT? When4966WRBwhen did4967VVDdo he4968PPhe say4969VVPsay it4970PPit ?4971SENT? What4972WPWhat does4973VVZdo it4974PPit mean4975VVPmean ,4976,, other4977JJother than4978INthan just4979RBjust ipse4980JJipse dixit4981NNdixit and4982CCand conclusions4983NNSconclusion ?4984SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]4985LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure4986NPSure .4987SENT. Your4988PP$your ...4989:... Your4990PP$your Honor4991NPHonor ,4992,, I4993PPI ...4994:... I4995PPI 'm4996VBPbe tempted4997VVNtempt to4998TOto pocket4999VVpocket the5000DTthe compliment5001NNcompliment and5002CCand sit5003VVsit down5004RPdown ,5005,, but5006CCbut I5007PPI won5008MDwill 't5009RB't do5010VVdo that5011DTthat .5012SENT. [5013SYM[ LAUGHTER5014NNlaughter ]5015SYM] [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5016LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] I5017PPI think5018VVPthink the5019DTthe Secretary5020NPSecretary fully5021RBfully acknowledged5022VVDacknowledge that5023IN/thatthat there5024EXthere was5025VBDbe an5026DTan upside5027NNupside to5028TOto the5029DTthe request5030NNrequest ,5031,, and5032CCand the5033DTthe upside5034NNupside was5035VBDbe the5036DTthe one5037CDone that5038IN/thatthat the5039DTthe Department5040NPDepartment of5041INof Justice5042NPJustice set5043VVDset forth5044RBforth in5045INin its5046PP$its letter5047NNletter ,5048,, that5049IN/thatthat having5050VHGhave citizenship5051NNcitizenship data5052NNSdatum would5053MDwould help5054VVhelp improve5055VVimprove Voting5056NPVoting Rights5057NPSRights Act5058NPAct enforcement5059NNenforcement .5060SENT. He5061PPhe fully5062RBfully understood5063VVDunderstand there5064EXthere was5065VBDbe an5066DTan alternative5067NNalternative ,5068,, using5069VVGuse administrative5070JJadministrative records5071NNSrecord ,5072,, and5073CCand he5074PPhe analyzed5075VVDanalyze that5076DTthat alternative5077NNalternative in5078INin the5079DTthe language5080NNlanguage that5081IN/thatthat I5082PPI just5083RBjust read5084VVPread to5085TOto Justice5086NPJustice Breyer5087NPBreyer ,5088,, and5089CCand he5090PPhe understood5091VVDunderstand there5092EXthere was5093VBDbe a5094DTa downside5095NNdownside ,5096,, that5097IN/thatthat adding5098VVGadd the5099DTthe citizenship5100NNcitizenship question5101NNquestion would5102MDwould potentially5103RBpotentially increase5104VVincrease self-response5105NNself-response ...5106:... decrease5107NNdecrease ...5108:... increase5109VVincrease the5110DTthe number5111NNnumber of5112INof ...5113:... decrease5114VVdecrease the5115DTthe number5116NNnumber of5117INof self-response5118JJself-response rates5119NNSrate .5120SENT. But5121CCbut he5122PPhe found5123VVDfind two5124CDtwo things5125NNSthing with5126INwith respect5127NNrespect to5128TOto that5129DTthat .5130SENT. First5131RBfirst ,5132,, he5133PPhe found5134VVDfind ...5135:... and5136CCand all5137DTall of5138INof this5139DTthis is5140VBZbe in5141INin his5142PP$his letter5143NNletter ...5144:... that5145IN/thatthat he5146PPhe could5147MDcould mitigate5148VVmitigate that5149IN/thatthat to5150TOto at5151INat least5152JJSleast a5153DTa certain5154JJcertain extent5155NNextent with5156INwith follow-up5157NNfollow-up operations5158NNSoperation ,5159,, perhaps5160RBperhaps not5161RBnot entirely5162RBentirely but5163CCbut at5164INat least5165JJSleast to5166TOto a5167DTa certain5168JJcertain extent5169NNextent ,5170,, and5171CCand ,5172,, secondly5173RBsecondly ,5174,, to5175TOto the5176DTthe extent5177NNextent that5178WDTthat materialized5179VVDmaterialize ,5180,, it5181PPit was5182VBDbe the5183DTthe product5184NNproduct of5185INof illegal5186JJillegal activity5187NNactivity .5188SENT. So5189RBso he5190PPhe considered5191VVDconsider the5192DTthe benefits5193NNSbenefit .5194SENT. He5195PPhe considered5196VVDconsider the5197DTthe alternatives5198NNSalternative .5199SENT. He5200PPhe considered5201VVDconsider the5202DTthe costs5203NNScost ...5204:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5205LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Which5206WDTwhich ...5207:... which5208WDTwhich letter5209NNletter ...5210:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5211LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...5212:... and5213CCand he5214PPhe concluded5215VVDconclude that5216IN/thatthat the5217DTthe benefits5218NNSbenefit outweighed5219VVDoutweigh the5220DTthe costs5221NNScost .5222SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5223LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] General5224NPGeneral ,5225,, which5226WDTwhich letter5227NNletter are5228VBPbe we5229PPwe talking5230VVGtalk about5231RBabout ?5232SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5233LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Secretary5234NPSecretary Ross5235NPRoss 's5236POS's decision5237NNdecision memo5238NNmemo in5239INin March5240NPMarch 20185241CD@card@ ,5242,, Your5243PP$your Honor5244NPHonor .5245SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5246LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] The5247DTthe memo5248NNmemo ,5249,, not5250RBnot ...5251:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5252LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] The5253DTthe memo5254NNmemo ,5255,, yes5256UHyes ,5257,, Your5258PP$your Honor5259NPHonor .5260SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5261LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...5262:... not5263RBnot the5264DTthe letter5265NNletter from5266INfrom ...5267:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5268LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah5269NPYeah .5270SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]5271LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...5272:... Department5273NPDepartment of5274INof Justice5275NPJustice .5276SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5277LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes5278NPYes ,5279,, Your5280PP$your Honor5281NPHonor ,5282,, the5283DTthe memo5284NNmemo .5285SENT. But5286CCbut the5287DTthe Department5288NPDepartment of5289INof Justice5290NPJustice 's5291POS's letter5292NNletter is5293VBZbe the5294DTthe one5295CDone that5296WDTthat articulated5297VVDarticulate the5298DTthe Voting5299NPVoting Rights5300NPSRights Act5301NPAct rationale5302NNrationale that5303WDTthat formed5304VVDform ...5305:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5306LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Can5307MDcan you5308PPyou explain5309VVexplain ...5310:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5311LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...5312:... the5313DTthe principal5314JJprincipal benefit5315NNbenefit .5316SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5317LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...5318:... can5319MDcan you5320PPyou explain5321VVexplain how5322WRBhow it5323PPit would5324MDwould improve5325VVimprove Voting5326NPVoting Rights5327NPSRights Act5328NPAct enforcement5329NNenforcement ?5330SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5331LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yes5332NPYes ,5333,, Your5334PP$your Honor5335NPHonor .5336SENT. One5337CDOne of5338INof the5339DTthe critical5340JJcritical elements5341NNSelement of5342INof Voting5343NPVoting Rights5344NPSRights Act5345NPAct enforcement5346NNenforcement is5347VBZbe something5348NNsomething called5349VVNcall Citizen5350NPCitizen Voting5351NPVoting Age5352NPAge Population5353NPPopulation ,5354,, or5355CCor CVAP5356NPCVAP .5357SENT. Right5358RBright now5359RBnow ,5360,, everything5361NNeverything for5362INfor CVAP5363NPCVAP comes5364VVZcome from5365INfrom the5366DTthe census5367NNcensus ,5368,, with5369INwith the5370DTthe exception5371NNexception of5372INof citizenship5373NNcitizenship .5374SENT. So5375INso population5376NNpopulation ,5377,, age5378NNage ,5379,, race5380NNrace ,5381,, all5382DTall of5383INof that5384WDTthat comes5385VVZcome from5386INfrom the5387DTthe census5388NNcensus ,5389,, except5390INexcept for5391INfor citizenship5392NNcitizenship ,5393,, the5394DTthe C5395NPC in5396INin CVAP5397NPCVAP .5398SENT. So5399INso a5400DTa large5401JJlarge amount5402NNamount of5403INof voting5404NNvoting rights5405NNSright litigation5406NNlitigation focuses5407VVZfocus on5408INon expert5409NNexpert witnesses5410NNSwitness who5411WPwho try5412VVPtry to5413TOto fill5414VVfill in5415INin that5416DTthat missing5417VVGmiss C5418NPC and5419CCand try5420VVtry to5421TOto estimate5422VVestimate that5423IN/thatthat missing5424VVGmiss C5425NPC through5426INthrough imputation5427NNimputation based5428VVNbase on5429INon the5430DTthe American5431NPAmerican Community5432NPCommunity Survey5433NPSurvey ,5434,, which5435WDTwhich goes5436VVZgo to5437TOto just5438RBjust one5439CDone in5440INin 385441CD@card@ households5442NNShousehold .5443SENT. And5444CCand the5445DTthe Department5446NPDepartment of5447INof Justice5448NPJustice wanted5449VVDwant to5450TOto get5451VVget all5452DTall of5453INof the5454DTthe same5455JJsame information5456NNinformation from5457INfrom the5458DTthe same5459JJsame database5460NNdatabase so5461INso that5462DTthat critical5463JJcritical feature5464NNfeature of5465INof voting5466NNvoting rights5467NNSright litigation5468NNlitigation ,5469,, CVAP5470NPCVAP ,5471,, all5472DTall came5473VVDcome from5474INfrom the5475DTthe same5476JJsame place5477NNplace .5478SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5479LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] General5480NPGeneral ...5481:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]5482LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And5483CCand to5484TOto just5485RBjust ...5486:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5487LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5488:... how5489WRBhow do5490VVPdo we5491PPwe know5492VVPknow that5493IN/thatthat DOJ5494NPDOJ could5495MDcould n't5496RBn't do5497VVdo Alternative5498NPAlternative C5499NPC ,5500,, rely5501VVPrely on5502INon the5503DTthe administrative5504JJadministrative records5505NNSrecord ?5506SENT? The5507DTthe one5508CDone thing5509NNthing that5510IN/thatthat we5511PPwe do5512VVPdo know5513VVknow is5514VBZbe that5515IN/thatthat the5516DTthe Secretary5517NPSecretary went5518VVDgo to5519TOto the5520DTthe Department5521NPDepartment ...5522:... went5523VVDgo to5524TOto DOJ5525NPDOJ at5526INat the5527DTthe beginning5528NNbeginning and5529CCand asked5530VVDask them5531PPthem for5532INfor help5533NNhelp in5534INin adding5535VVGadd the5536DTthe citizenship5537NNcitizenship question5538NNquestion .5539SENT. They5540PPthey initially5541RBinitially said5542VVDsay no5543UHno .5544SENT. At5545INat least5546JJSleast their5547PP$their lower-level5548JJlower-level people5549NNSpeople said5550VVDsay no5551RBno ,5552,, told5553VVDtell them5554PPthem to5555TOto shop5556VVshop it5557PPit to5558TOto DHS5559NPDHS and5560CCand see5561VVsee if5562INif DHS5563NPDHS wanted5564VVDwant the5565DTthe citizenship5566NNcitizenship question5567NNquestion .5568SENT. DHS5569NNSDHS said5570VVDsay not5571RBnot our5572PP$our work5573NNwork ...5574:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5575LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh5576NPUh-huh .5577SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5578LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5579:... go5580VVgo back5581RBback to5582TOto DOJ5583NPDOJ .5584SENT. They5585PPthey go5586VVPgo back5587RBback to5588TOto DOJ5589NPDOJ ,5590,, the5591DTthe people5592NNSpeople they5593PPthey 're5594VBPbe in5595INin touch5596NNtouch with5597INwith ,5598,, that5599WDTthat are5600VBPbe not5601RBnot low-level5602JJlow-level ,5603,, but5604CCbut they5605PPthey 're5606VBPbe not5607RBnot the5608DTthe highest5609JJShigh level5610NNlevel ,5611,, say5612VVPsay no5613RBno .5614SENT. And5615CCand Secretary5616NPSecretary of5617INof Commerce5618NPCommerce speaks5619VVZspeak to5620TOto the5621DTthe head5622NNhead of5623INof DOJ5624NPDOJ at5625INat the5626DTthe time5627NNtime ...5628:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5629LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh5630NPUh-huh .5631SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5632LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5633:... and5634CCand the5635DTthe head5636NNhead of5637INof the5638DTthe DOJ5639NPDOJ says5640VVZsay :5641:: We5642PPwe 'll5643MDwill give5644VVgive you5645PPyou anything5646NNanything you5647PPyou need5648VVPneed .5649SENT. They5650PPthey do5651VVPdo a5652DTa letter5653NNletter ,5654,, the5655DTthe letter5656NNletter says5657VVZsay the5658DTthe ACS5659NPACS is5660VBZbe not5661RBnot enough5662JJenough .5663SENT. What5664WPWhat the5665DTthe letter5666NNletter does5667VVZdo n't5668RBn't say5669VVsay is5670VBZbe ,5671,, ah5672NNah ,5673,, if5674INif you5675PPyou supplemented5676VVDsupplement with5677INwith administrative5678JJadministrative records5679NNSrecord ,5680,, which5681WDTwhich 65682CD6 (5683(( c5684LSc )5685)) lets5686VVZlet you5687PPyou do5688VVPdo and5689CCand tells5690VVZtell you5691PPyou you5692PPyou should5693MDshould do5694VVdo to5695TOto maximize5696VVmaximize the5697DTthe extent5698NNextent possible5699JJpossible that5700IN/thatthat the5701DTthe actual5702JJactual count5703NNcount is5704VBZbe accurate5705JJaccurate ,5706,, and5707CCand we5708PPwe do5709VVPdo know5710VVknow that5711IN/thatthat there5712EXthere will5713MDwill be5714VBbe less5715JJRless people5716NNSpeople being5717VBGbe reported5718VVNreport ,5719,, which5720WDTwhich is5721VBZbe the5722DTthe whole5723JJwhole purpose5724NNpurpose of5725INof the5726DTthe survey5727NNsurvey ...5728:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5729LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh5730NPUh-huh .5731SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5732LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5733:... how5734WRBhow many5735JJmany people5736NNSpeople there5737EXthere are5738VBPbe ,5739,, and5740CCand nobody5741NNnobody doubts5742VVZdoubt that5743IN/thatthat there5744EXthere will5745MDwill be5746VBbe less5747JJRless people5748NNSpeople reported5749VVDreport .5750SENT. That5751DTthat 's5752VBZbe a5753DTa maximum5754JJmaximum need5755NNneed of5756INof the5757DTthe census5758NNcensus survey5759NNsurvey report5760NNreport ,5761,, not5762RBnot citizenship5763NNcitizenship .5764SENT. Let5765NPLet 's5766POS's not5767RBnot confuse5768VVconfuse the5769DTthe two5770CDtwo things5771NNSthing .5772SENT. The5773DTthe enumeration5774NNenumeration is5775VBZbe how5776WRBhow many5777JJmany people5778NNSpeople reside5779VVPreside here5780RBhere ,5781,, not5782RBnot how5783WRBhow many5784JJmany are5785VBPbe citizens5786NNScitizen .5787SENT. That5788DTthat 's5789VBZbe what5790WPwhat the5791DTthe census5792NNcensus survey5793NNsurvey is5794VBZbe supposed5795VVNsuppose to5796TOto figure5797VVfigure out5798RPout .5799SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5800LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Uh-huh5801NPUh-huh .5802SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5803LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] DOJ5804NPDOJ needs5805VVZneed citizenship5806NNcitizenship .5807SENT. But5808CCbut ,5809,, when5810WRBwhen the5811DTthe Bureau5812NPBureau asks5813VVZask DOJ5814NPDOJ ,5815,, not5816RBnot the5817DTthe Secretary5818NPSecretary ,5819,, to5820TOto meet5821VVmeet so5822INso they5823PPthey can5824MDcan discuss5825VVdiscuss why5826WRBwhy the5827DTthe administrative5828JJadministrative records5829NNSrecord are5830VBPbe not5831RBnot good5832JJgood enough5833RBenough ,5834,, they5835PPthey say5836VVPsay ,5837,, we5838PPwe do5839VVPdo n't5840RBn't need5841VVneed to5842TOto .5843SENT. So5844RBso tell5845VVtell me5846PPme ,5847,, in5848INin that5849DTthat sequence5850NNsequence ,5851,, how5852WRBhow does5853VVZdo the5854DTthe Secretary5855NPSecretary know5856VVPknow the5857DTthe answer5858NNanswer ...5859:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5860LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure5861NPSure .5862SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5863LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5864:... to5865TOto that5866DTthat question5867NNquestion ?5868SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]5869LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure5870NPSure .5871SENT. So5872INso a5873DTa couple5874NNcouple of5875INof responses5876NNSresponse to5877TOto that5878DTthat ,5879,, Your5880PP$your Honor5881NPHonor .5882SENT. I5883PPI 'm5884VBPbe going5885VVGgo to5886TOto start5887VVstart with5888INwith the5889DTthe 65890CD6 (5891(( c5892LSc )5893)) issue5894VVissue because5895INbecause I5896PPI know5897VVPknow that5898WDTthat was5899VBDbe of5900INof interest5901NNinterest to5902TOto Justice5903NPJustice Breyer5904NPBreyer as5905RBas well5906RBwell .5907SENT. And5908CCand under5909INunder 65910CD6 (5911(( c5912LSc )5913)) ,5914,, under5915INunder my5916PP$my ...5917:... my5918PP$my friend5919NNfriend 's5920VBZbe on5921INon the5922DTthe other5923JJother side5924NNside 's5925POS's position5926NNposition ,5927,, you5928PPyou actually5929RBactually could5930MDcould n't5931RBn't even5932RBeven ask5933VVask the5934DTthe citizenship5935NNcitizenship question5936NNquestion on5937INon the5938DTthe American5939NPAmerican Community5940NPCommunity Survey5941NPSurvey .5942SENT. And5943CCand you5944PPyou also5945RBalso could5946MDcould n't5947RBn't ask5948VVask about5949INabout sex5950NNsex and5951CCand age5952NNage on5953INon the5954DTthe census5955NNcensus itself5956PPitself since5957INsince all5958DTall of5959INof that5960DTthat information5961NNinformation is5962VBZbe all5963DTall also5964RBalso available5965JJavailable in5966INin administrative5967JJadministrative records5968NNSrecord .5969SENT. But5970CCbut the5971DTthe reason5972NNreason why5973WRBwhy administrative5974JJadministrative records5975NNSrecord are5976VBPbe insufficient5977JJinsufficient under5978INunder 65979CD6 (5980(( c5981LSc )5982)) for5983INfor any5984DTany of5985INof these5986DTthese purposes5987NNSpurpose is5988VBZbe for5989INfor the5990DTthe simple5991JJsimple reason5992NNreason that5993IN/thatthat you5994PPyou do5995VVPdo n't5996RBn't have5997VHhave them5998PPthem for5999INfor 356000CD@card@ million6001CDmillion people6002NNSpeople .6003SENT. In6004INin terms6005NNSterm of6006INof the6007DTthe Department6008NPDepartment of6009INof Justice6010NPJustice 's6011POS's request6012NNrequest and6013CCand the6014DTthe Census6015NPCensus Bureau6016NPBureau 's6017POS's alternative6018JJalternative proposal6019NNproposal ,6020,, it6021PPit simply6022RBsimply was6023VBDbe n't6024RBn't responsive6025JJresponsive to6026TOto the6027DTthe Department6028NPDepartment of6029INof Justice6030NPJustice 's6031POS's request6032NNrequest for6033INfor two6034CDtwo reasons6035NNSreason .6036SENT. First6037RBfirst ,6038,, administrative6039JJadministrative records6040NNSrecord did6041VVDdo n't6042RBn't solve6043VVsolve the6044DTthe problem6045NNproblem that6046IN/thatthat the6047DTthe Department6048NPDepartment of6049INof Justice6050NPJustice was6051VBDbe trying6052VVGtry to6053TOto solve6054VVsolve ,6055,, which6056WDTwhich was6057VBDbe getting6058VVGget all6059DTall of6060INof their6061PP$their CVAP6062NPCVAP data6063NNSdatum from6064INfrom the6065DTthe same6066JJsame source6067NNsource and6068CCand covering6069VVGcover the6070DTthe same6071JJsame time6072NNtime period6073NNperiod .6074SENT. Administrative6075JJadministrative records6076NNSrecord come6077VVNcome from6078INfrom a6079DTa different6080JJdifferent database6081NNdatabase and6082CCand cover6083VVcover a6084DTa different6085JJdifferent time6086NNtime period6087NNperiod than6088INthan all6089DTall of6090INof the6091DTthe other6092JJother information6093NNinformation used6094VVNuse to6095TOto construct6096VVconstruct Citizen6097NPCitizen Voting6098NPVoting Age6099NPAge Population6100NPPopulation .6101SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6102LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That6103DTthat does6104VVZdo n't6105RBn't tell6106VVtell you6107PPyou why6108WRBwhy it6109PPit 's6110VBZbe not6111RBnot good6112JJgood enough6113RBenough .6114SENT. They6115PPthey may6116MDmay have6117VHhave wanted6118VVNwant something6119NNsomething .6120SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6121LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Sure6122NPSure .6123SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6124LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6125CCbut they6126PPthey would6127MDwould then6128RBthen be6129VBbe introduced6130VVNintroduce with6131INwith one6132CDone database6133NNdatabase that6134WDTthat has6135VHZhave been6136VBNbe ,6137,, according6138VVGaccord to6139TOto the6140DTthe chief6141JJchief statistician6142NNstatistician of6143INof the6144DTthe Bureau6145NPBureau ,6146,, introducing6147VVGintroduce multiple6148JJmultiple layers6149NNSlayer of6150INof uncertainty6151NNuncertainty .6152SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6153LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right6154NPRight .6155SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6156LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Uncertainty6157NNuncertainty about6158INabout or6159CCor an6160DTan undercount6161NNundercount of6162INof people6163NNSpeople because6164INbecause they6165PPthey already6166RBalready say6167VVPsay that6168IN/thatthat undercount6169NNundercount 's6170VBZbe going6171VVGgo to6172TOto be6173VBbe at6174INat a6175DTa minimum6176JJminimum 56177CD5 .6178SENT. 86179CD8 ,6180,, less6181JJRless people6182NNSpeople are6183VBPbe going6184VVGgo to6185TOto respond6186VVrespond .6187SENT. You6188PPyou 're6189VBPbe going6190VVGgo to6191TOto have6192VHhave a6193DTa lesser6194JJRlesser number6195NNnumber that6196WDTthat are6197VBPbe going6198VVGgo to6199TOto group6200NNgroup with6201INwith the6202DTthe administrative6203JJadministrative record6204NNrecord .6205SENT. You6206PPyou 're6207VBPbe going6208VVGgo to6209TOto have6210VHhave 96211CD9 .6212SENT. 56213CD5 million6214CDmillion that6215DTthat conflict6216NNconflict between6217INbetween their6218PP$their answer6219NNanswer and6220CCand the6221DTthe administrative6222JJadministrative records6223NNSrecord .6224SENT. And6225CCand we6226PPwe have6227VHPhave to6228TOto change6229VVchange the6230DTthe bureau6231NNbureau 's6232POS's use6233NNuse of6234INof that6235DTthat information6236NNinformation to6237TOto be6238VBbe able6239JJable to6240TOto use6241VVuse the6242DTthe administrative6243JJadministrative record6244NNrecord .6245SENT. And6246CCand the6247DTthe Secretary6248NPSecretary does6249VVZdo n't6250RBn't ask6251VVask ,6252,, if6253INif we6254PPwe change6255VVPchange that6256IN/thatthat ,6257,, what6258WPwhat else6259RBelse will6260MDwill it6261PPit affect6262VVaffect ?6263SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6264LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Right6265NPRight .6266SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6267LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So6268INso he6269PPhe does6270VVZdo n't6271RBn't know6272VVknow that6273DTthat .6274SENT. And6275CCand we6276PPwe now6277RBnow have6278VHPhave error6279NNerror in6280INin the6281DTthe unreporting6282JJunreporting population6283NNpopulation of6284INof at6285INat least6286JJSleast 500,0006287CD@card@ .6288SENT. So6289INso something6290NNsomething the6291DTthe chief6292JJchief statistician6293NNstatistician of6294INof the6295DTthe bureau6296NNbureau tells6297VVZtell us6298PPus is6299VBZbe ,6300,, unlike6301INunlike our6302PP$our simpler6303JJRsimple prior6304JJprior models6305NNSmodel ,6306,, this6307DTthis introduces6308VVZintroduce more6309JJRmore uncertainty6310NNuncertainty at6311INat every6312DTevery single6313JJsingle level6314NNlevel of6315INof the6316DTthe calculus6317NNcalculus .6318SENT. And6319CCand so6320RBso that6321DTthat data6322NNdata is6323VBZbe going6324VVGgo to6325TOto be6326VBbe more6327RBRmore suspect6328JJsuspect ,6329,, more6330RBRmore prone6331JJprone to6332TOto cross6333VVcross ...6334:... to6335TOto less6336JJRless reliability6337NNreliability ,6338,, and6339CCand less6340RBRless accurate6341JJaccurate .6342SENT. And6343CCand so6344RBso ,6345,, if6346INif the6347DTthe bureau6348NNbureau ...6349:... if6350INif the6351DTthe Department6352NPDepartment of6353INof Justice6354NPJustice refused6355VVDrefuse to6356TOto listen6357VVlisten to6358TOto that6359DTthat ,6360,, how6361WRBhow can6362MDcan the6363DTthe Secretary6364NPSecretary conclude6365VVPconclude that6366IN/thatthat he6367PPhe 's6368VBZbe complying6369VVGcomply with6370INwith 66371CD6 (6372(( c6373LSc )6374)) fully6375RBfully ?6376SENT? Because6377INbecause it6378PPit says6379VVZsay to6380TOto the6381DTthe maximum6382JJmaximum extent6383NNextent possible6384JJpossible ,6385,, and6386CCand how6387WRBhow can6388MDcan you6389PPyou be6390VBbe possible6391JJpossible if6392INif you6393PPyou do6394VVPdo n't6395RBn't even6396RBeven ask6397VVask why6398WRBwhy ?6399SENT? [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6400LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So6401RBso ...6402:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6403LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] This6404DTthis seems6405VVZseem like6406INlike he6407PPhe thought6408VVDthink of6409INof something6410NNsomething ,6411,, I6412PPI want6413VVPwant to6414TOto add6415VVadd a6416DTa citizenship6417NNcitizenship question6418NNquestion ,6419,, I6420PPI do6421VVPdo n't6422RBn't know6423VVknow why6424WRBwhy ,6425,, but6426CCbut this6427DTthis is6428VBZbe a6429DTa solution6430NNsolution in6431INin search6432NNsearch of6433INof a6434DTa problem6435NNproblem .6436SENT. I6437PPI 've6438VHPhave got6439VVNget to6440TOto find6441VVfind a6442DTa problem6443NNproblem that6444WDTthat fits6445VVZfit what6446WPwhat I6447PPI want6448VVPwant to6449TOto do6450VVdo .6451SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6452LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] So6453RBso ,6454,, Your6455PP$your Honor6456NPHonor ,6457,, there6458EXthere 's6459VBZbe a6460DTa whole6461JJwhole lot6462NNlot in6463INin that6464DTthat question6465NNquestion ,6466,, but6467CCbut I6468PPI think6469VVPthink I6470PPI will6471MDwill start6472VVstart with6473INwith where6474WRBwhere you6475PPyou ended6476VVDend .6477SENT. And6478CCand if6479INif you6480PPyou really6481RBreally think6482VVPthink 66483CD6 (6484(( c6485LSc )6486)) is6487VBZbe a6488DTa problem6489NNproblem ,6490,, then6491RBthen we6492PPwe really6493RBreally cannot6494MDcan ask6495VVask the6496DTthe citizenship6497NNcitizenship question6498NNquestion on6499INon the6500DTthe American6501NPAmerican Community6502NPCommunity Survey6503NPSurvey since6504INsince that6505WDTthat is6506VBZbe just6507RBjust as6508RBas subject6509JJsubject to6510TOto 66511CD6 (6512(( c6513LSc )6514)) as6515INas the6516DTthe census6517NNcensus is6518VBZbe .6519SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6520LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No6521NPNo ,6522,, what6523WPwhat it6524PPit says6525VVZsay ...6526:... what6527WPwhat it6528PPit says6529VVZsay is6530VBZbe to6531TOto the6532DTthe maximum6533JJmaximum extent6534NNextent possible6535JJpossible .6536SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6537LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And6538CCand here6539RBhere the6540DTthe Secretary6541NPSecretary is6542VBZbe using6543VVGuse the6544DTthe administrative6545JJadministrative records6546NNSrecord to6547TOto the6548DTthe maximum6549JJmaximum extent6550NNextent possible6551JJpossible because6552INbecause he6553PPhe 's6554VBZbe combining6555VVGcombine them6556PPthem .6557SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6558LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6559CCbut the6560DTthe ACS6561NPACS is6562VBZbe not6563RBnot the6564DTthe survey6565NNsurvey .6566SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6567LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] He6568PPhe 's6569VBZbe combining6570VVGcombine them6571PPthem with6572INwith the6573DTthe administrative6574JJadministrative records6575NNSrecord and6576CCand the6577DTthe self-responses6578NNSself-responses and6579CCand using6580VVGuse administrative6581JJadministrative records6582NNSrecord where6583WRBwhere they6584PPthey 're6585VBPbe available6586JJavailable ,6587,, using6588VVGuse self-responses6589NNSself-responses at6590INat 986591CD@card@ percent6592NNpercent accuracy6593NNaccuracy ...6594:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6595LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6596CCbut the6597DTthe problem6598NNproblem ...6599:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6600LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...6601:... where6602WRBwhere administrative6603JJadministrative records6604NNSrecord are6605VBPbe not6606RBnot available6607JJavailable .6608SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6609LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6610:... but6611CCbut the6612DTthe problem6613NNproblem is6614VBZbe you6615PPyou can6616MDcan 't6617RB't confuse6618VVconfuse the6619DTthe survey6620NNsurvey ,6621,, which6622WDTwhich is6623VBZbe really6624RBreally the6625DTthe question6626NNquestion of6627INof 66628CD6 (6629(( c6630LSc )6631)) ...6632:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6633LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] No6634NPNo .6635SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6636LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6637:... or6638CCor the6639DTthe focus6640NNfocus .6641SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6642LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] It6643PPit 's6644VBZbe not6645RBnot .6646SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6647LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Because6648INbecause ...6649:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6650LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] 66651CD6 (6652(( c6653LSc )6654)) applies6655VVZapply to6656TOto all6657DTall census6658NNcensus instruments6659NNSinstrument ,6660,, not6661RBnot just6662RBjust the6663DTthe census6664NNcensus .6665SENT. It6666PPit fully6667RBfully applies6668VVZapply to6669TOto the6670DTthe American6671NPAmerican Community6672NPCommunity Survey6673NPSurvey .6674SENT. And6675CCand it6676PPit likewise6677RBlikewise applies6678VVZapply ...6679:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6680LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6681CCbut the6682DTthe ACS6683NPACS is6684VBZbe not6685RBnot used6686VVNuse ...6687:... the6688DTthe ACS6689NPACS is6690VBZbe not6691RBnot used6692VVNuse for6693INfor the6694DTthe citizenship6695NNcitizenship purpose6696NNpurpose .6697SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6698LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] But6699CCbut ,6700,, Your6701PP$your Honor6702NPHonor ,6703,, your6704PP$your question6705NNquestion ...6706:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6707LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You6708PPyou already6709RBalready said6710VVDsay why6711WRBwhy it6712PPit was6713VBDbe n't6714RBn't .6715SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6716LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...6717:... your6718PP$your question6719NNquestion is6720VBZbe about6721INabout 66722CD6 (6723(( c6724LSc )6725)) .6726SENT. 66727CD6 (6728(( c6729LSc )6730)) applies6731VVZapply to6732TOto the6733DTthe ACS6734NPACS and6735CCand it6736PPit applies6737VVZapply to6738TOto the6739DTthe census6740NNcensus .6741SENT. And6742CCand sex6743NNsex and6744CCand age6745NNage information6746NNinformation ,6747,, which6748WDTwhich we6749PPwe ask6750VVPask on6751INon the6752DTthe census6753NNcensus ,6754,, is6755VBZbe also6756RBalso available6757JJavailable in6758INin administrative6759JJadministrative records6760NNSrecord .6761SENT. Indeed6762RBindeed ,6763,, administrative6764JJadministrative records6765NNSrecord are6766VBPbe more6767RBRmore accurate6768JJaccurate with6769INwith respect6770NNrespect to6771TOto sex6772NNsex and6773CCand age6774NNage because6775INbecause ,6776,, presumably6777RBpresumably ,6778,, your6779PP$your birth6780NNbirth date6781NNdate and6782CCand your6783PP$your sex6784NNsex do6785VVPdo n't6786RBn't change6787VVchange over6788INover the6789DTthe course6790NNcourse of6791INof time6792NNtime ,6793,, whereas6794INwhereas your6795PP$your citizenship6796NNcitizenship status6797NNstatus does6798VVZdo .6799SENT. So6800RBso ,6801,, if6802INif you6803PPyou really6804RBreally think6805VVPthink that6806DTthat 66807CD6 (6808(( c6809LSc )6810)) is6811VBZbe a6812DTa problem6813NNproblem ,6814,, we6815PPwe can6816MDcan 't6817RB't ask6818VVask it6819PPit on6820INon the6821DTthe ACS6822NPACS and6823CCand we6824PPwe can6825MDcan 't6826RB't ask6827VVask sex6828NNsex and6829CCand age6830NNage on6831INon the6832DTthe census6833NNcensus ,6834,, so6835RBso that6836DTthat 's6837VBZbe why6838WRBwhy I6839PPI think6840VVPthink that6841WDTthat is6842VBZbe plainly6843RBplainly wrong6844JJwrong .6845SENT. It6846PPit really6847RBreally does6848VVZdo boil6849VVboil down6850RPdown to6851TOto whether6852INwhether the6853DTthe Secretary6854NPSecretary 's6855POS's judgment6856NNjudgment here6857RBhere is6858VBZbe a6859DTa reasonable6860JJreasonable one6861CDone .6862SENT. And6863CCand in6864INin the6865DTthe face6866NNface of6867INof two6868CDtwo competing6869VVGcompete possibilities6870NNSpossibility ,6871,, either6872CCeither asking6873VVGask the6874DTthe question6875NNquestion ,6876,, getting6877VVGget answers6878NNSanswer for6879INfor two-thirds6880NNStwo-third of6881INof the6882DTthe people6883NNSpeople for6884INfor whom6885WPwhom no6886DTno administrative6887JJadministrative records6888NNSrecord existed6889VVDexist ,6890,, at6891INat percent6892NNpercent accuracy6893NNaccuracy ,6894,, or6895CCor using6896VVGuse an6897DTan estimation6898NNestimation model6899NNmodel that6900WDTthat had6901VHDhave not6902RBnot yet6903RByet been6904VBNbe created6905VVNcreate and6906CCand had6907VHDhave an6908DTan unknown6909JJunknown error6910NNerror rate6911NNrate ,6912,, the6913DTthe Secretary6914NPSecretary reasonably6915RBreasonably chose6916VVDchoose to6917TOto go6918VVgo ...6919:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6920LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But6921CCbut just6922RBjust ...6923:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]6924LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] ...6925:... with6926INwith the6927DTthe bird6928NNbird in6929INin the6930DTthe hand6931NNhand .6932SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6933LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...6934:... General6935NPGeneral ,6936,, just6937RBjust going6938VVGgo back6939RBback to6940TOto Justice6941NPJustice Kavanaugh6942NPKavanaugh 's6943POS's simple6944JJsimple question6945NNquestion about6946INabout why6947WRBwhy the6948DTthe Secretary6949NPSecretary thought6950VVDthink that6951IN/thatthat there6952EXthere was6953VBDbe a6954DTa need6955NNneed for6956INfor this6957DTthis data6958NNSdatum ,6959,, and6960CCand then6961RBthen part6962NNpart of6963INof what6964WPwhat Justice6965NPJustice Sotomayor6966NPSotomayor was6967VBDbe talking6968VVGtalk about6969RBabout was6970VBDbe that6971IN/thatthat it6972PPit did6973VVDdo really6974RBreally seem6975VVseem like6976INlike the6977DTthe Secretary6978NPSecretary was6979VBDbe shopping6980VVGshop for6981INfor a6982DTa need6983NNneed .6984SENT. Goes6985VVZgo to6986TOto the6987DTthe Justice6988NPJustice Department6989NPDepartment .6990SENT. Justice6991NPJustice Department6992NPDepartment says6993VVZsay ,6994,, we6995PPwe do6996VVPdo n't6997RBn't need6998VVneed anything6999NNanything .7000SENT. Goes7001VVZgo to7002TOto DHS7003NPDHS .7004SENT. DHS7005NPDHS says7006VVZsay they7007PPthey do7008VVPdo n't7009RBn't need7010VVneed anything7011NNanything .7012SENT. Goes7013VVZgo back7014RBback to7015TOto the7016DTthe Justice7017NPJustice Department7018NPDepartment ,7019,, makes7020VVZmake it7021PPit clear7022JJclear that7023IN/thatthat he7024PPhe 's7025VBZbe going7026VVGgo to7027TOto put7028VVput in7029INin a7030DTa call7031NNcall to7032TOto the7033DTthe Attorney7034NPAttorney General7035NPGeneral .7036SENT. Finally7037RBfinally ,7038,, the7039DTthe Justice7040NPJustice Department7041NPDepartment comes7042VVZcome back7043RBback to7044TOto him7045PPhim and7046CCand says7047VVZsay :7048:: Okay7049JJokay ,7050,, we7051PPwe can7052MDcan give7053VVgive you7054PPyou what7055WPwhat you7056PPyou want7057VVPwant .7058SENT. So7059RBso you7060PPyou can7061MDcan 't7062RB't read7063VVDread this7064DTthis record7065NNrecord without7066INwithout sensing7067VVGsense that7068IN/thatthat this7069DTthis ...7070:... this7071DTthis need7072NNneed is7073VBZbe a7074DTa contrived7075JJcontrived one7076CDone .7077SENT. Nobody7078NNnobody had7079VHDhave ...7080:... there7081EXthere have7082VHPhave been7083VBNbe lots7084NNSlot of7085INof assistant7086JJassistant attorney7087NNattorney general7088NNgeneral in7089INin the7090DTthe Civil7091NPCivil Rights7092NPSRights Division7093NPDivision that7094WDTthat have7095VHPhave never7096RBnever made7097VVNmake a7098DTa plea7099NNplea for7100INfor this7101DTthis kind7102NNkind of7103INof data7104NNSdatum .7105SENT. And7106CCand ...7107:... and7108CCand just7109RBjust the7110DTthe way7111NNway this7112DTthis went7113VVDgo back7114RBback and7115CCand forth7116RBforth ,7117,, I7118PPI guess7119VVPguess I7120PPI 'd7121MDwould like7122VVlike an7123DTan answer7124NNanswer to7125TOto that7126DTthat simple7127NNsimple ...7128:... [GENERAL FRANCISCO]7129LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] Yeah7130NPYeah .7131SENT. Sure7132JJsure .7133SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7134LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...7135:... question7136NNquestion .7137SENT. [GENERAL FRANCISCO]7138LOC[GENERAL FRANCISCO] And7139CCand I7140PPI have7141VHPhave two7142CDtwo responses7143NNSresponse ,7144,, Your7145PP$your Honor7146NPHonor .7147SENT. And7148CCand then7149RBthen ,7150,, if7151INif I7152PPI may7153MDmay ,7154,, I7155PPI 'd7156MDwould like7157VVlike to7158TOto reserve7159VVreserve the7160DTthe remainder7161NNremainder of7162INof my7163PP$my time7164NNtime for7165INfor rebuttal7166NNrebuttal .7167SENT. First7168RBfirst ,7169,, I7170PPI think7171VVPthink it7172PPit is7173VBZbe quite7174RBquite common7175JJcommon for7176INfor cabinet7177NNcabinet Secretaries7178NNSsecretary to7179TOto come7180VVcome into7181INinto office7182NNoffice with7183INwith ideas7184NNSidea and7185CCand inclinations7186NNSinclination to7187TOto discuss7188VVdiscuss with7189INwith their7190PP$their staff7191NNstaff and7192CCand discuss7193VVdiscuss with7194INwith their7195PP$their colleagues7196NNScolleague whether7197INwhether there7198EXthere is7199VBZbe a7200DTa legal7201JJlegal and7202CCand policy7203NNpolicy basis7204NNbasis for7205INfor that7206DTthat inclination7207NNinclination .7208SENT. Secondly7209RBsecondly ,7210,, there7211EXthere 's7212VBZbe no7213DTno evidence7214NNevidence in7215INin this7216DTthis record7217NNrecord that7218IN/thatthat the7219DTthe Secretary7220NPSecretary would7221MDwould have7222VHhave asked7223VVNask this7224DTthis question7225NNquestion had7226VHDhave the7227DTthe Department7228NPDepartment of7229INof Justice7230NPJustice not7231RBnot requested7232VVDrequest it7233PPit .7234SENT. And7235CCand there7236EXthere 's7237VBZbe no7238DTno evidence7239NNevidence in7240INin this7241DTthis record7242NNrecord that7243IN/thatthat the7244DTthe Secretary7245NPSecretary did7246VVDdo n't7247RBn't believe7248VVbelieve that7249IN/thatthat the7250DTthe Department7251NPDepartment of7252INof Justice7253NPJustice actually7254RBactually wanted7255VVDwant this7256DTthis information7257NNinformation to7258TOto improve7259VVimprove Voting7260NPVoting Rights7261NPSRights Act7262NPAct enforcement7263NNenforcement .7264SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]7265LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank7266VVthank you7267PPyou ,7268,, General7269NPGeneral .7270SENT. General7271NPGeneral Underwood7272NPUnderwood .7273SENT.