[MR. CHAITEN]21LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Thank22VVthank you23PPyou ,24,, Mr25NPMr .26SENT. Chief27NPChief Justice28NPJustice ,29,, and30CCand may31MDmay it32PPit please33VVplease the34DTthe Court35NPCourt :36:: The37DTthe separate38JJseparate sovereigns39NNSsovereign exception40NNexception to41TOto the42DTthe Double43NPDouble Jeopardy44NNjeopardy Clause45NNclause is46VBZbe inconsistent47JJinconsistent with48INwith the49DTthe text50NNtext and51CCand original52JJoriginal meaning53NNmeaning of54INof the55DTthe Double56NPDouble Jeopardy57NNjeopardy Clause58NNclause .59SENT. There60EXthere is61VBZbe no62DTno dispute63NNdispute that64IN/thatthat the65DTthe text66NNtext of67INof the68DTthe clause69NNclause was70VBDbe understood71VVNunderstand to72TOto incorporate73VVincorporate English74JJEnglish practice75NNpractice .76SENT. And77CCand there78EXthere was79VBDbe no80DTno practice81NNpractice of82INof intersovereign83JJintersovereign successive84JJsuccessive prosecutions85NNSprosecution in86INin all87DTall of88INof English89JJEnglish history90NNhistory or91CCor in92INin American93JJAmerican history94NNhistory for95INfor the96DTthe first97JJfirst century98NNcentury of99INof this100DTthis republic101NNrepublic after102INafter the103DTthe framing104NNframing .105SENT. There106EXthere 's107VBZbe also108RBalso a109DTa mountain110NNmountain of111INof affirmative112JJaffirmative evidence113NNevidence that114IN/thatthat in115INin England116NPEngland ,117,, even118RBeven a119DTa foreign120JJforeign acquittal121NNacquittal by122INby a123DTa court124NNcourt of125INof competent126JJcompetent and127CCand current128JJcurrent ...129:... concurrent130JJconcurrent jurisdiction131NNjurisdiction bars132VVZbar a133DTa subsequent134JJsubsequent prosecution135NNprosecution in136INin England137NPEngland for138INfor the139DTthe ...140:... for141INfor the142DTthe same143JJsame offense144NNoffense .145SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]146LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] You147PPyou think148VVPthink that149WDTthat 's150VBZbe fair151JJfair 3152CD3 to153TOto ...154:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]155LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well156UHWell ,157,, your158PP$your ...159:... [JUSTICE ALITO]160LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Excuse161NNexcuse me162PPme ,163,, Chief164NPChief .165SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]166LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Your167PP$your leading168VVGlead authority169NNauthority is170VBZbe a171DTa foreign172JJforeign prosecution173NNprosecution in174INin England175NPEngland of176INof the177DTthe ...178:... the179DTthe ...180:... in181INin ...182:... in183INin the184DTthe Spanish185JJSpanish case186NNcase .187SENT. And188CCand the189DTthe argument190NNargument on191INon the192DTthe other193JJother side194NNside ,195,, which196WDTwhich has197VHZhave some198DTsome traction199NNtraction ,200,, I201PPI think202VVPthink ,203,, is204VBZbe that205IN/thatthat it206PPit would207MDwould be208VBbe quite209RBquite unusual210JJunusual or211CCor surprising212JJsurprising for213INfor the214DTthe new215JJnew American216JJAmerican republic217NNrepublic to218TOto look219VVlook to220TOto Europe221NPEurope in222INin a223DTa question224NNquestion like225INlike that226DTthat because227INbecause the228DTthe one229CDone concern230NNconcern ,231,, and232CCand applies233VVZapply both234DTboth in235INin the236DTthe English237JJEnglish situation238NNsituation as239INas well240RBwell ,241,, is242VBZbe that243IN/thatthat it244PPit would245MDwould be246VBbe a247DTa significant248JJsignificant intrusion249NNintrusion on250INon sovereignty251NNsovereignty ,252,, a253DTa particular254JJparticular concern255NNconcern of256INof the257DTthe new258JJnew ...259:... new260JJnew American261JJAmerican republic262NNrepublic ,263,, to264TOto allow265VVallow a266DTa foreign267JJforeign prosecution268NNprosecution to269TOto limit270VVlimit the271DTthe authority272NNauthority of273INof ...274:... of275INof the276DTthe ...277:... the278DTthe United279NPUnited States280NPSStates .281SENT. It's282NNSIt's ...283:... and284CCand ,285,, frankly286RBfrankly ,287,, it288PPit 's289VBZbe ...290:... would291MDwould be292VBbe surprising293JJsurprising even294RBeven in295INin the296DTthe ...297:... the298DTthe English299JJEnglish case300NNcase .301SENT. I302PPI mean303VVPmean ,304,, the305DTthe ...306:... the307DTthe relations308NNSrelation between309INbetween Spain310NPSpain and311CCand England312NPEngland were313VBDbe not314RBnot exactly315RBexactly the316DTthe ...317:... the318DTthe best319JJSgood .320SENT. And321CCand why322WRBwhy ...323:... I324PPI mean325VVPmean ,326,, if327INif it328PPit ...329:... if330INif it331PPit were332VBDbe a333DTa Spanish334JJSpanish case335NNcase involving336VVGinvolve the337DTthe murder338NNmurder of339INof Englishmen340NNSEnglishman ,341,, would342MDwould the343DTthe English344JJEnglish court345NNcourt really346RBreally have347VHPhave said348VVNsay ,349,, well350RBwell ,351,, he352PPhe was353VBDbe tried354VVNtry in355INin Spain356NPSpain ,357,, so358RBso we're359JJwe're ...360:... our361PP$our hands362NNShand are363VBPbe tied364VVNtie ?365SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]366LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well367UHwell ,368,, there369EXthere 's370VBZbe overwhelming371JJoverwhelming evidence372NNevidence ,373,, as374INas I375PPI said376VVDsay ,377,, that378IN/thatthat that379DTthat is380VBZbe the381DTthe English382JJEnglish rule383NNrule ,384,, and385CCand there386EXthere 's387VBZbe no388DTno dispute389NNdispute that390IN/thatthat the391DTthe framers392NNSframer were393VBDbe incorporating394VVGincorporate English395JJEnglish practice396NNpractice into397INinto the398DTthe Double399NPDouble Jeopardy400NNjeopardy Clause401NNclause .402SENT. And403CCand ...404:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]405LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Any406DTany ...407:... any408DTany country409NNcountry in410INin the411DTthe world412NNworld ?413SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]414LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Any415DTany country416NNcountry in417INin the418DTthe world419NNworld ?420SENT? [JUSTICE GINSBURG]421LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Yes422NPYes .423SENT. If424INif there425EXthere 's426VBZbe ...427:... [MR. CHAITEN]428LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well429UHwell ,430,, it431PPit ...432:... I'm433NNI'm ...434:... I435PPI 'm436VBPbe sorry437JJsorry .438SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]439LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] If440INif there441EXthere 's442VBZbe a443DTa ...444:... a445DTa prior446JJprior criminal447JJcriminal proceeding448NNproceeding ,449,, either450CCeither an451DTan acquittal452NNacquittal or453CCor a454DTa conviction455NNconviction ,456,, any457DTany country458NNcountry in459INin the460DTthe world461NNworld ,462,, that463WDTthat would464MDwould count465VVcount ?466SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]467LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So468RBso ...469:... so470RBso there471EXthere are472VBPbe a473DTa few474JJfew requirements475NNSrequirement .476SENT. One477CDOne ,478,, it479PPit would480MDwould have481VHhave to482TOto be483VBbe the484DTthe same485JJsame offense486NNoffense ,487,, so488RBso you489PPyou would490MDwould have491VHhave to492TOto meet493VVmeet the494DTthe English495JJEnglish standard496NNstandard ,497,, which498WDTwhich is499VBZbe ,500,, in501INin fact502NNfact ,503,, the504DTthe standard505NNstandard of506INof this507DTthis Court508NPCourt today509NNtoday .510SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]511LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] It512PPit is513VBZbe n't514RBn't clear515JJclear .516SENT. I517PPI mean518VVPmean ,519,, I520PPI thought521VVDthink when522WRBwhen I523PPI read524VVPread your525PP$your brief526NNbrief ,527,, well528RBwell ,529,, you530PPyou 're531VBPbe absolutely532RBabsolutely right533JJright .534SENT. But535CCbut then536RBthen I537PPI read538VVPread the539DTthe other540JJother side541NNside on542INon the543DTthe practice544NNpractice .545SENT. [546SYM[ LAUGHTER547NNlaughter ]548SYM] [JUSTICE BREYER]549LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And550CCand now551RBnow I552PPI 'm553VBPbe not554RBnot going555VVGgo to556TOto say557VVsay you558PPyou 're559VBPbe absolutely560RBabsolutely wrong561JJwrong ,562,, but563CCbut three564CDthree times565NNStime the566DTthe Court567NPCourt has568VHZhave considered569VVNconsider your570PP$your arguments571NNSargument ,572,, looked573VVNlook at574INat those575DTthose cases576NNScase ,577,, the578DTthe English579JJEnglish case580NNcase ,581,, Hutchinson582NPHutchinson ,583,, no584DTno report585NNreport .586SENT. Later587JJRlater cases588NNScase refer589VVPrefer to590TOto it591PPit .592SENT. There593EXthere was594VBDbe a595DTa complexity596NNcomplexity involving597VVGinvolve a598DTa special599JJspecial commission600NNcommission designed601VVNdesign to602TOto try603VVtry people604NNSpeople who605WPwho had606VHDhave committed607VVNcommit murder608NNmurder outside609INoutside the610DTthe country611NNcountry .612SENT. The613DTthe King614NPKing 's615POS's Bench616NPBench did617VVDdo n't618RBn't have619VHhave authority620NNauthority .621SENT. The622DTthe King623NPKing 's624POS's Bench625NPBench referred626VVDrefer it627PPit to628TOto that629DTthat commission630NNcommission ,631,, and632CCand that633DTthat commission634NNcommission said635VVDsay :636:: Well637UHwell ,638,, he639PPhe was640VBDbe acquitted641VVNacquit in642INin Portugal643NPPortugal and644CCand ,645,, therefore646RBtherefore ,647,, we648PPwe will649MDwill not650RBnot try651VVtry him652PPhim in653INin this654DTthis special655JJspecial commission656NNcommission designed657VVNdesign to658TOto ,659,, dah-dah660NNdah-dah .661SENT. And662CCand does663NNSdoe that664WDTthat reflect665VVPreflect a666DTa principle667NNprinciple of668INof law669NNlaw ?670SENT? Does671VVZdo it672PPit reflect673VVreflect something674NNsomething about675INabout the676DTthe commission677NNcommission ?678SENT? Does679VVZdo it680PPit reflect681VVreflect something682NNsomething about683INabout the684DTthe individual685JJindividual circumstances686NNScircumstance ?687SENT? So688RBso far689RBfar ,690,, it691PPit seems692VVZseem to693TOto me694PPme ,695,, no696DTno one697CDone has698VHZhave any699DTany idea700NNidea .701SENT. If702INif you703PPyou read704VVPread Gage705NPGage ,706,, you707PPyou 'll708MDwill discover709VVdiscover the710DTthe other711JJother side712NNside 's713POS's argument714NNargument .715SENT. And716CCand the717DTthe same718JJsame is719VBZbe true720JJtrue of721INof the722DTthe early723JJearly cases724NNScase .725SENT. I726PPI won727MDwill 't728RB't go729VVgo through730INthrough all731DTall of732INof them733PPthem here734RBhere .735SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]736LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So737RBso ...738:... so739RBso ...740:... [JUSTICE BREYER]741LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] But742CCbut the743DTthe early744JJearly cases745NNScase ,746,, we747PPwe find748VVPfind some749DTsome ...750:... [MR. CHAITEN]751LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So752RBso ...753:... so754RBso ...755:... [JUSTICE BREYER]756LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...757:... you758PPyou know759VVPknow ,760,, that761DTthat support762NNsupport you763PPyou and764CCand some765DTsome that766WDTthat do767VVPdo n't768RBn't .769SENT. What770WPWhat do771VVPdo we772PPwe do773VVPdo ?774SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]775LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So776INso I777PPI ...778:... I779PPI do780VVPdo think781VVthink they782PPthey all783RBall support784VVsupport us785PPus .786SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]787LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] They788PPthey all789RBall support790VVsupport you791PPyou ?792SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]793LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yes794NPYes ,795,, I796PPI do797VVPdo believe798VVbelieve they799PPthey all800RBall support801VVsupport us802PPus .803SENT. And804CCand the805DTthe one806CDone ...807:... the808DTthe one809CDone case810NNcase you811PPyou mentioned812VVDmention that813WDTthat is814VBZbe ...815:... potentially816RBpotentially leans817VVZlean the818DTthe other819JJother way820NNway is821VBZbe Gage822NPGage ,823,, but824CCbut it825PPit 's826VBZbe a827DTa civil828JJcivil case829NNcase and830CCand it831PPit 's832VBZbe analogizing833VVGanalogize to834TOto Hutchinson835NPHutchinson for836INfor the837DTthe purposes838NNSpurpose of839INof ...840:... of841INof ...842:... of843INof how844WRBhow ...845:... a846DTa rule847NNrule about848INabout recognition849NNrecognition of850INof civil851JJcivil judgments852NNSjudgment .853SENT. And854CCand there855EXthere is856VBZbe no857DTno ancient858JJancient rule859NNrule rooted860VVNroot in861INin Talmud862NNTalmud ,863,, in864INin Roman865NPRoman law866NNlaw ,867,, in868INin Greek869JJGreek law870NNlaw ,871,, in872INin canon873NNcanon law874NNlaw ,875,, in876INin ancient877JJancient English878JJEnglish common879JJcommon law880NNlaw to881TOto have882VHhave your883PP$your civil884JJcivil judgments885NNSjudgment recognized886VVNrecognize by887INby another888DTanother court889NNcourt .890SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]891LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] No892NPNo ,893,, I894PPI ...895:... I896PPI ...897:... I898PPI accept899VVPaccept that900RBthat .901SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]902LOC[MR. CHAITEN] There903EXthere is904VBZbe not905RBnot to906TOto be907VBbe prosecuted908VVNprosecute by909INby ...910:... for911INfor ...912:... for913INfor a914DTa successive915JJsuccessive prosecution916NNprosecution .917SENT. And918CCand the919DTthe point920NNpoint is921VBZbe not922RBnot ...923:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]924LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] May925MDmay I926PPI ask927VVask you928PPyou to929TOto just930RBjust step931VVstep back932RBback and933CCand so934RBso you935PPyou can936MDcan complete937VVcomplete your938PP$your answer939NNanswer to940TOto my941PP$my question942NNquestion ?943SENT? I944PPI had945VHDhave asked946VVNask you947PPyou any948DTany country949NNcountry in950INin the951DTthe world952NNworld ,953,, the954DTthe judgment955NNjudgment from956INfrom any957DTany country958NNcountry in959INin ...960:... in961INin the962DTthe world963NNworld .964SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]965LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So966RBso ...967:... so968RBso ,969,, if970INif ...971:... if972INif you973PPyou 're974VBPbe asking975VVGask me976PPme what977WPwhat the978DTthe English979JJEnglish rule980NNrule was981VBDbe ,982,, I983PPI would984MDwould say985VVsay yes986UHyes ,987,, that988WDTthat is989VBZbe ,990,, but991CCbut there992EXthere are993VBPbe three994CDthree important995JJimportant qualifications996NNSqualification on997INon the998DTthe rule999NNrule .1000SENT. First1001RBfirst ,1002,, it1003PPit ...1004:... it1005PPit does1006VVZdo have1007VHPhave to1008TOto be1009VBbe the1010DTthe same1011JJsame offense1012NNoffense ,1013,, so1014INso there1015EXthere is1016VBZbe no1017DTno dispute1018NNdispute in1019INin ...1020:... in1021INin ...1022:... in1023INin the1024DTthe case1025NNcase of1026INof the1027DTthe murder1028NNmurder in1029INin Portugal1030NPPortugal and1031CCand the1032DTthe trial1033NNtrial in1034INin England1035NPEngland or1036CCor the1037DTthe murder1038NNmurder in1039INin ...1040:... in1041INin the1042DTthe Cape1043NPCape of1044INof Good1045NPGood Hope1046NPHope and1047CCand the1048DTthe trial1049NNtrial in1050INin England1051NPEngland that1052IN/thatthat those1053DTthose were1054VBDbe the1055DTthe same1056JJsame offense1057NNoffense .1058SENT. They1059PPthey were1060VBDbe both1061DTboth murder1062NNmurder .1063SENT. But1064CCbut sometimes1065RBsometimes that1066WDTthat 's1067VBZbe a1068DTa little1069RBlittle more1070RBRmore complicated1071JJcomplicated because1072INbecause it1073PPit has1074VHZhave to1075TOto be1076VBbe the1077DTthe same1078JJsame elements1079NNSelement .1080SENT. That1081DTthat 's1082VBZbe the1083DTthe ...1084:... that1085WDTthat 's1086VBZbe the1087DTthe meaning1088NNmeaning of1089INof "1090``" same1091JJsame offense1092NNoffense "1093''" under1094INunder this1095DTthis Court1096NPCourt 's1097POS's jurisprudence1098NNjurisprudence and1099CCand under1100INunder the1101DTthe original1102JJoriginal meaning1103NNmeaning .1104SENT. Secondly1105RBsecondly ,1106,, and1107CCand ...1108:... and1109CCand ...1110:... and1111CCand this1112DTthis is1113VBZbe very1114RBvery important1115JJimportant ,1116,, the1117DTthe second1118JJsecond court1119NNcourt has1120VHZhave to1121TOto recognize1122VVrecognize the1123DTthe competent1124JJcompetent and1125CCand concurrent1126JJconcurrent ...1127:... concurrent1128JJconcurrent jurisdiction1129NNjurisdiction of1130INof the1131DTthe first1132JJfirst court1133NNcourt .1134SENT. That1135DTthat ...1136:... that1137WDTthat 's1138VBZbe part1139NNpart of1140INof the1141DTthe English1142JJEnglish rule1143NNrule .1144SENT. And1145CCand there1146EXthere 's1147VBZbe no1148DTno dispute1149NNdispute ...1150:... whatever1151WDTwhatever may1152MDmay arise1153VVarise in1154INin the1155DTthe international1156JJinternational context1157NNcontext ,1158,, there1159EXthere 's1160VBZbe no1161DTno dispute1162NNdispute that1163IN/thatthat Alabama1164NPAlabama and1165CCand this1166DTthis ...1167:... the1168DTthe federal1169JJfederal government1170NNgovernment have1171VHPhave competent1172JJcompetent and1173CCand concurrent1174JJconcurrent jurisdiction1175NNjurisdiction over1176INover the1177DTthe offense1178NNoffense of1179INof being1180VBGbe a1181DTa felon1182NNfelon in1183INin possession1184NNpossession .1185SENT. So1186RBso ,1187,, at1188INat least1189JJSleast in1190INin this1191DTthis country1192NNcountry ,1193,, the1194DTthe answer1195NNanswer seems1196VVZseem pretty1197RBpretty clear1198JJclear ,1199,, because1200INbecause the1201DTthe rule1202NNrule was1203VBDbe a1204DTa concurrent1205JJconcurrent jurisdiction1206NNjurisdiction rule1207NNrule ,1208,, and1209CCand there1210EXthere 's1211VBZbe no1212DTno doubt1213NNdoubt that1214IN/thatthat there1215EXthere is1216VBZbe concurrent1217JJconcurrent jurisdiction1218NNjurisdiction .1219SENT. I1220PPI do1221VVPdo n't1222RBn't think1223VVthink the1224DTthe idea1225NNidea ,1226,, even1227RBeven at1228INat the1229DTthe framing1230NNframing ,1231,, that1232WDTthat you1233PPyou would1234MDwould recognize1235VVrecognize a1236DTa ...1237:... an1238DTan acquittal1239NNacquittal in1240INin another1241DTanother country1242NNcountry as1243INas a1244DTa bar1245NNbar to1246TOto prosecution1247NNprosecution could1248MDcould possibly1249RBpossibly be1250VBbe so1251RBso shocking1252JJshocking because1253INbecause it1254PPit was1255VBDbe mentioned1256VVNmention in1257INin Furlong1258NPFurlong .1259SENT. It1260PPit was1261VBDbe discussed1262VVNdiscuss in1263INin Furlong1264NPFurlong .1265SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1266LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] How1267NPHow ...1268:... how1269WRBhow ...1270:... how1271WRBhow ...1272:... [MR. CHAITEN]1273LOC[MR. CHAITEN] And1274CCand the1275DTthe only1276JJonly ...1277:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1278LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] What1279WPWhat 's1280VBZbe the1281DTthe third1282JJthird ...1283:... what1284WPwhat 's1285VBZbe the1286DTthe third1287JJthird requirement1288NNrequirement ?1289SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]1290LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The1291DTthe third1292JJthird requirement1293NNrequirement is1294VBZbe that1295IN/thatthat it1296PPit can1297MDcan 't1298RB't be1299VBbe a1300DTa sham1301JJsham prosecution1302NNprosecution or1303CCor a1304DTa collusive1305JJcollusive prosecution1306NNprosecution .1307SENT. But1308CCbut then1309RBthen you1310PPyou 're1311VBPbe never1312RBnever really1313RBreally ...1314:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1315LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All1316DTall right1317NNright ,1318,, it1319PPit can1320MDcan 't1321RB't be1322VBbe a1323DTa sham1324NNsham .1325SENT. So1326RBso ,1327,, today1328NNtoday ,1329,, let1330VVlet 's1331VBZbe say1332VVsay a1333DTa group1334NNgroup of1335INof American1336JJAmerican tourists1337NNStourist are1338VBPbe murdered1339VVNmurder by1340INby terrorists1341NNSterrorist in1342INin a1343DTa foreign1344JJforeign country1345NNcountry ,1346,, and1347CCand there1348EXthere is1349VBZbe a1350DTa prosecution1351NNprosecution in1352INin the1353DTthe foreign1354JJforeign country1355NNcountry for1356INfor murder1357NNmurder ,1358,, the1359DTthe same1360JJsame offense1361NNoffense in1362INin a1363DTa court1364NNcourt of1365INof competent1366JJcompetent jurisdiction1367NNjurisdiction there1368RBthere ,1369,, and1370CCand it1371PPit 's1372VBZbe not1373RBnot a1374DTa sham1375JJsham prosecution1376NNprosecution ,1377,, but1378CCbut it1379PPit 's1380VBZbe a1381DTa fairly1382RBfairly inept1383JJinept prosecution1384NNprosecution ,1385,, lack1386NNlack of1387INof prosecutorial1388JJprosecutorial investigative1389JJinvestigative resources1390NNSresource in1391INin a1392DTa poor1393JJpoor country1394NNcountry ,1395,, and1396CCand it1397PPit results1398VVZresult in1399INin an1400DTan acquittal1401NNacquittal or1402CCor a1403DTa conviction1404NNconviction with1405INwith a1406DTa very1407RBvery light1408JJlight sentence1409NNsentence .1410SENT. And1411CCand your1412PP$your position1413NNposition is1414VBZbe that1415IN/thatthat there1416EXthere could1417MDcould not1418RBnot be1419VBbe a1420DTa prosecution1421NNprosecution here1422RBhere in1423INin the1424DTthe United1425NPUnited States1426NPSStates under1427INunder the1428DTthe statute1429NNstatute enacted1430VVNenact by1431INby Congress1432NPCongress to1433TOto permit1434VVpermit the1435DTthe prosecution1436NNprosecution of1437INof individuals1438NNSindividual who1439WPwho murder1440VVPmurder Americans1441NPSAmericans abroad1442RBabroad ?1443SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]1444LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So1445RBso ...1446:... so1447RBso let1448VVlet me1449PPme address1450VVaddress that1451IN/thatthat in1452INin a1453DTa few1454JJfew different1455JJdifferent ways1456NNSway .1457SENT. One1458CDOne ,1459,, the1460DTthe original1461JJoriginal understanding1462NNunderstanding was1463VBDbe that1464IN/thatthat it1465PPit applied1466VVDapply between1467INbetween countries1468NNScountry .1469SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1470LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah1471UHYeah ,1472,, well1473UHwell ...1474:... [MR. CHAITEN]1475LOC[MR. CHAITEN] But1476CCbut that1477DTthat ...1478:... and1479CCand that1480WDTthat 's1481VBZbe ...1482:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1483LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...1484:... could1485MDcould you1486PPyou just1487RBjust answer1488VVanswer whether1489INwhether that1490WDTthat 's1491VBZbe correct1492JJcorrect or1493CCor not1494RBnot ?1495SENT? And1496CCand if1497INif it1498PPit 's1499VBZbe not1500RBnot correct1501JJcorrect ,1502,, why1503WRBwhy is1504VBZbe it1505PPit not1506RBnot correct1507JJcorrect ?1508SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]1509LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Under1510INunder the1511DTthe original1512JJoriginal understanding1513NNunderstanding ,1514,, it1515PPit would1516MDwould be1517VBbe up1518RBup to1519TOto the1520DTthe U1521NPU .1522SENT. S1523NPS .1524SENT. court1525NNcourt to1526TOto determine1527VVdetermine whether1528INwhether it1529PPit 's1530VBZbe going1531VVGgo to1532TOto recognize1533VVrecognize the1534DTthe competent1535JJcompetent and1536CCand concurrent1537JJconcurrent jurisdiction1538NNjurisdiction of1539INof that1540DTthat other1541JJother country1542NNcountry .1543SENT. What1544WPWhat I1545PPI 'm1546VBPbe saying1547VVGsay is1548VBZbe ,1549,, in1550INin the1551DTthe case1552NNcase of1553INof federal1554JJfederal and1555CCand state1556NNstate relations1557NNSrelation ,1558,, there1559EXthere is1560VBZbe no1561DTno dispute1562NNdispute about1563INabout that1564DTthat .1565SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1566LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But1567CCbut I1568PPI really1569RBreally do1570VVPdo n't1571RBn't think1572VVthink you1573PPyou 're1574VBPbe ...1575:... [MR. CHAITEN]1576LOC[MR. CHAITEN] There1577EXthere 's1578VBZbe binding1579JJbinding law1580NNlaw on1581INon that1582DTthat .1583SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1584LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I1585PPI mean1586VVPmean ,1587,, I1588PPI do1589VVPdo n't1590RBn't think1591VVthink this1592DTthis is1593VBZbe in1594INin ...1595:... a1596DTa surprise1597NNsurprise question1598NNquestion or1599CCor a1600DTa particularly1601RBparticularly difficult1602JJdifficult one1603CDone .1604SENT. It1605PPit is1606VBZbe a1607DTa court1608NNcourt of1609INof competent1610JJcompetent jurisdiction1611NNjurisdiction .1612SENT. It1613PPit is1614VBZbe the1615DTthe court1616NNcourt that1617IN/thatthat ,1618,, in1619INin that1620DTthat case1621NNcase ...1622:... in1623INin that1624DTthat country1625NNcountry has1626VHZhave jurisdiction1627NNjurisdiction to1628TOto try1629VVtry offenses1630NNSoffense for1631INfor murder1632NNmurder .1633SENT. No1634DTno question1635NNquestion about1636INabout that1637DTthat .1638SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]1639LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well1640UHwell ,1641,, it1642PPit 's1643VBZbe not1644RBnot ...1645:... it1646PPit 's1647VBZbe ...1648:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1649LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So1650INso your1651PP$your answer1652NNanswer is1653VBZbe ?1654SENT? Can1655MDcan they1656PPthey be1657VBbe prosecuted1658VVNprosecute here1659RBhere or1660CCor can1661MDcan they1662PPthey not1663RBnot be1664VBbe prosecuted1665VVNprosecute here1666RBhere ?1667SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]1668LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The1669NPThe ...1670:... the1671DTthe ...1672:... the1673DTthe answer1674NNanswer ,1675,, it1676PPit 's1677VBZbe not1678RBnot just1679RBjust that1680IN/thatthat the1681DTthe particular1682JJparticular court1683NNcourt is1684VBZbe competent1685JJcompetent jurisdiction1686NNjurisdiction ;1687:; it1688PPit 's1689VBZbe that1690IN/thatthat we1691PPwe 're1692VBPbe going1693VVGgo to1694TOto recognize1695VVrecognize the1696DTthe jurisdiction1697NNjurisdiction of1698INof the1699DTthe other1700JJother country1701NNcountry over1702INover the1703DTthe crime1704NNcrime .1705SENT. This1706DTthis was1707VBDbe the1708DTthe point1709NNpoint that1710IN/thatthat Furlong1711NPFurlong was1712VBDbe making1713VVGmake about1714INabout the1715DTthe ...1716:... the1717DTthe murder1718NNmurder of1719INof a1720DTa British1721JJBritish subject1722NNsubject by1723INby a1724DTa British1725JJBritish subject1726NNsubject on1727INon a1728DTa British1729JJBritish ship1730NNship ,1731,, and1732CCand Furlong1733NPFurlong says1734VVZsay it1735PPit 's1736VBZbe pretty1737RBpretty doubtful1738JJdoubtful that1739IN/thatthat England1740NPEngland would1741MDwould actually1742RBactually recognize1743VVrecognize a1744DTa U1745NPU .1746SENT. S1747NPS .1748SENT. acquittal1749NNacquittal in1750INin that1751DTthat case1752NNcase because1753INbecause England1754NPEngland would1755MDwould say1756VVsay you1757PPyou have1758VHPhave no1759DTno basis1760NNbasis for1761INfor concurrent1762JJconcurrent jurisdiction1763NNjurisdiction over1764INover that1765DTthat crime1766NNcrime .1767SENT. So1768RBso that1769DTthat 's1770VBZbe the1771DTthe determination1772NNdetermination the1773DTthe U1774NPU .1775SENT. S1776NPS .1777SENT. court1778NNcourt would1779MDwould make1780VVmake .1781SENT. You1782PPyou do1783VVPdo n't1784RBn't have1785VHhave to1786TOto reach1787VVreach that1788DTthat question1789NNquestion in1790INin this1791DTthis case1792NNcase .1793SENT. Our1794PP$our point1795NNpoint is1796VBZbe that1797IN/thatthat if1798INif that1799WDTthat was1800VBDbe the1801DTthe rule1802NNrule at1803INat the1804DTthe ...1805:... at1806INat the1807DTthe ...1808:... if1809INif that1810WDTthat was1811VBDbe the1812DTthe original1813JJoriginal understanding1814NNunderstanding at1815INat the1816DTthe time1817NNtime of1818INof the1819DTthe framing1820NNframing ...1821:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]1822LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well1823UHwell ...1824:... well1825UHwell ,1826,, we1827PPwe do1828VVPdo have1829VHhave to1830TOto reach1831VVreach ...1832:... [MR. CHAITEN]1833LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...1834:... if1835INif the1836DTthe rule1837NNrule ...1838:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]1839LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...1840:... we1841PPwe do1842VVPdo have1843VHhave to1844TOto reach1845VVreach that1846DTthat question1847NNquestion because1848INbecause your1849PP$your position1850NNposition logically1851RBlogically would1852MDwould extend1853VVextend to1854TOto Justice1855NPJustice Alito1856NPAlito 's1857POS's hypothetical1858JJhypothetical ,1859,, and1860CCand if1861INif prosecution1862NNprosecution is1863VBZbe part1864NNpart of1865INof the1866DTthe national1867JJnational security1868NNsecurity efforts1869NNSeffort of1870INof the1871DTthe United1872NPUnited States1873NPStates ,1874,, federal1875JJfederal prosecution1876NNprosecution ,1877,, and1878CCand your1879PP$your position1880NNposition would1881MDwould substantially1882RBsubstantially hamper1883VVhamper those1884DTthose national1885JJnational security1886NNsecurity efforts1887NNSeffort .1888SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]1889LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So1890RBso ...1891:... so1892INso I1893PPI ...1894:... I1895PPI 'm1896VBPbe saying1897VVGsay the1898DTthe reason1899NNreason you1900PPyou do1901VVPdo n't1902RBn't have1903VHhave to1904TOto reach1905VVreach the1906DTthe questions1907NNSquestion ,1908,, obviously1909RBobviously ,1910,, this1911DTthis is1912VBZbe a1913DTa case1914NNcase involving1915VVGinvolve an1916DTan Alabama1917NPAlabama crime1918NNcrime and1919CCand ...1920:... and1921CCand ...1922:... and1923CCand a1924DTa federal1925JJfederal crime1926NNcrime ,1927,, and1928CCand there1929EXthere is1930VBZbe ...1931:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]1932LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But1933CCbut the1934DTthe logic1935NNlogic of1936INof your1937PP$your position1938NNposition ...1939:... [MR. CHAITEN]1940LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The1941DTthe logic1942NNlogic of1943INof our1944PP$our position1945NNposition ,1946,, though1947RBthough ...1948:... but1949RBbut ...1950:... but1951CCbut the1952DTthe point1953NNpoint is1954VBZbe whatever1955JJwhatever ...1956:... whatever1957WDTwhatever the1958DTthe court1959NNcourt 's1960POS's ruling1961NNruling in1962INin that1963DTthat case1964NNcase ,1965,, were1966VBDbe it1967PPit ever1968RBever to1969TOto come1970VVcome up1971RPup ,1972,, which1973WDTwhich I1974PPI think1975VVPthink is1976VBZbe exceedingly1977RBexceedingly unlikely1978JJunlikely ,1979,, this1980DTthis is1981VBZbe a1982DTa different1983JJdifferent case1984NNcase because1985INbecause it1986PPit 's1987VBZbe so1988RBso much1989RBmuch stronger1990JJRstrong .1991SENT. If1992INif the1993DTthe ...1994:... if1995INif the1996DTthe original1997JJoriginal understanding1998NNunderstanding was1999VBDbe the2000DTthe rule2001NNrule applied2002VVNapply between2003INbetween foreign2004JJforeign countries2005NNScountry ,2006,, then2007RBthen ,2008,, a2009DTa fortiori2010NNfortiori ,2011,, it2012PPit should2013MDshould apply2014VVapply between2015INbetween a2016DTa state2017NNstate and2018CCand federal2019JJfederal government2020NNgovernment that2021WDTthat ...2022:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2023LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah2024NPYeah ,2025,, a2026DTa fortiori2027NNfortiori ,2028,, but2029CCbut ...2030:... but2031CCbut your2032PP$your ...2033:... your2034PP$your ...2035:... you2036PPyou say2037VVPsay ...2038:... I2039PPI ...2040:... I2041PPI wonder2042VVPwonder whether2043INwhether you2044PPyou have2045VHPhave perhaps2046RBperhaps exaggerated2047VVNexaggerate in2048INin saying2049VVGsay there2050EXthere 's2051VBZbe a2052DTa mountain2053NNmountain of2054INof support2055NNsupport for2056INfor your2057PP$your position2058NNposition .2059SENT. But2060CCbut your2061PP$your main2062JJmain support2063NNsupport is2064VBZbe a2065DTa ...2066:... a2067DTa rumor2068NNrumor of2069INof a2070DTa decision2071NNdecision involving2072VVGinvolve a2073DTa prior2074JJprior prosecution2075NNprosecution in2076INin Portugal2077NPPortugal and2078CCand then2079RBthen the2080DTthe possibility2081NNpossibility of2082INof a2083DTa subsequent2084JJsubsequent prosecution2085NNprosecution in2086INin England2087NPEngland .2088SENT. So2089RBso it2090PPit 's2091VBZbe a2092DTa foreign2093JJforeign prosecution2094NNprosecution .2095SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]2096LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So2097RBso ...2098:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2099LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] It2100PPit ...2101:... it2102PPit 's2103VBZbe true2104JJtrue ,2105,, that2106WDTthat 's2107VBZbe not2108RBnot what2109WPwhat 's2110VBZbe involved2111VVNinvolve here2112RBhere ,2113,, but2114CCbut your2115PP$your ...2116:... your2117PP$your argument2118NNargument is2119VBZbe based2120VVNbase on2121INon foreign2122JJforeign prosecutions2123NNSprosecution .2124SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]2125LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The2126DTthe original2127JJoriginal understanding2128NNunderstanding was2129VBDbe based2130VVNbase on2131INon foreign2132JJforeign prosecutions2133NNSprosecution .2134SENT. The2135DTthe point2136NNpoint is2137VBZbe ,2138,, in2139RBin ...2140:... on2141INon the2142DTthe question2143NNquestion presented2144VVDpresent here2145RBhere ,2146,, a2147DTa fortiori2148NNfortiori ,2149,, it2150PPit should2151MDshould apply2152VVapply between2153INbetween federal2154JJfederal and2155CCand state2156NNstate government2157NNgovernment .2158SENT. There2159EXthere is2160VBZbe a2161DTa principled2162JJprincipled basis2163NNbasis for2164INfor limiting2165VVGlimit this2166DTthis to2167TOto governments2168NNSgovernment bound2169VVNbind by2170INby the2171DTthe Double2172NPDouble Jeopardy2173NNjeopardy Clause2174NNclause if2175INif the2176DTthe Court2177NPCourt ...2178:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2179LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But2180CCbut ...2181:... [MR. CHAITEN]2182LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...2183:... wanted2184VVDwant to2185TOto do2186VVdo that2187DTthat .2188SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2189LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...2190:... but2191CCbut ,2192,, Mr2193NPMr .2194SENT. Chaiten2195RBChaiten ,2196,, I2197PPI think2198VVPthink ...2199:... [MR. CHAITEN]2200LOC[MR. CHAITEN] It2201PPit did2202VVDdo that2203IN/thatthat in2204INin ...2205:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2206LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...2207:... I2208PPI think2209VVPthink the2210DTthe point2211NNpoint is2212VBZbe that2213IN/thatthat you2214PPyou 're2215VBPbe asking2216VVGask us2217PPus to2218TOto write2219VVwrite an2220DTan opinion2221NNopinion which2222WDTwhich is2223VBZbe based2224VVNbase on2225INon this2226DTthis original2227JJoriginal understanding2228NNunderstanding ,2229,, and2230CCand the2231DTthe original2232JJoriginal understanding2233NNunderstanding ,2234,, as2235INas you2236PPyou put2237VVPput it2238PPit ,2239,, applies2240VVZapply between2241INbetween foreign2242JJforeign countries2243NNScountry ,2244,, and2245CCand ,2246,, a2247DTa fortiori2248NNfortiori ,2249,, it2250PPit must2251MDmust be2252VBbe that2253IN/thatthat our2254PP$our decision2255NNdecision would2256MDwould apply2257VVapply between2258INbetween foreign2259JJforeign countries2260NNScountry .2261SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]2262LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The2263NPThe ...2264:... the2265DTthe original2266JJoriginal understanding2267NNunderstanding is2268VBZbe it2269PPit would2270MDwould .2271SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2272LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And2273CCand that2274DTthat 's2275VBZbe what2276WPwhat ...2277:... [MR. CHAITEN]2278LOC[MR. CHAITEN] In2279INin Murphy2280NPMurphy v2281NNv .2282SENT. Waterfront2283NNwaterfront Commission2284NPCommission ...2285:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2286LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] That's2287NPThat's ...2288:... that2289WDTthat 's2290VBZbe ...2291:... that2292WDTthat 's2293VBZbe what2294WPwhat your2295PP$your brief2296NNbrief is2297VBZbe all2298RBall about2299RBabout .2300SENT. That2301DTthat 's2302VBZbe what2303WPwhat you2304PPyou 're2305VBPbe asking2306VVGask us2307PPus to2308TOto say2309VVsay ,2310,, that2311IN/thatthat the2312DTthe original2313JJoriginal understanding2314NNunderstanding was2315VBDbe that2316IN/thatthat there2317EXthere would2318MDwould be2319VBbe no2320DTno double2321JJdouble jeopardy2322NNjeopardy bar2323NNbar between2324INbetween different2325JJdifferent sovereigns2326NNSsovereign when2327WRBwhen those2328DTthose sovereigns2329NNSsovereign are2330VBPbe foreign2331JJforeign countries2332NNScountry .2333SENT. So2334RBso how2335WRBhow could2336MDcould we2337PPwe avoid2338VVavoid that2339DTthat consequence2340NNconsequence ?2341SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]2342LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well2343UHWell ,2344,, first2345JJfirst of2346INof all2347DTall ,2348,, I2349PPI 'm2350VBPbe not2351RBnot sure2352JJsure the2353DTthe case2354NNcase is2355VBZbe ever2356RBever going2357VVGgo to2358TOto arise2359VVarise ,2360,, but2361CCbut ...2362:... and2363CCand this2364DTthis is2365VBZbe State2366NNstate of2367INof Alabama2368NPAlabama and2369CCand federal2370JJfederal government2371NNgovernment and2372CCand its2373PP$its undisputed2374JJundisputed concurrent2375JJconcurrent jurisdiction2376NNjurisdiction .2377SENT. The2378DTthe rule2379NNrule is2380VBZbe a2381DTa rule2382NNrule of2383INof concurrent2384JJconcurrent jurisdiction2385NNjurisdiction .2386SENT. So2387RBso it2388PPit 's2389VBZbe when2390WRBwhen is2391VBZbe the2392DTthe U2393NPU .2394SENT. S2395NPS .2396SENT. going2397VVGgo to2398TOto recognize2399VVrecognize the2400DTthe current2401JJcurrent ...2402:... concurrent2403JJconcurrent jurisdiction2404NNjurisdiction of2405INof another2406DTanother country2407NNcountry .2408SENT. And2409CCand ,2410,, again2411RBagain ,2412,, I2413PPI want2414VVPwant ...2415:... just2416RBjust wanted2417VVDwant to2418TOto say2419VVsay that2420DTthat Murphy2421NPMurphy v2422NNv .2423SENT. Waterfront2424NNwaterfront Commission2425NPCommission is2426VBZbe a2427DTa case2428NNcase where2429WRBwhere the2430DTthe court2431NNcourt held2432VVDhold that2433IN/thatthat the2434DTthe self-incrimination2435NNself-incrimination privilege2436NNprivilege applies2437VVZapply cross-jurisdictionally2438RBcross-jurisdictionally .2439SENT. The2440DTthe Court2441NPCourt subsequently2442RBsubsequently limited2443VVDlimit that2444IN/thatthat to2445TOto parties2446NNSparty bound2447VVNbind by2448INby the2449DTthe Double2450NPDouble Jeopardy2451NNjeopardy Clause2452NNclause .2453SENT. So2454RBso there2455EXthere is2456VBZbe a2457DTa principled2458JJprincipled way2459NNway of2460INof doing2461VVGdo this2462DTthis if2463INif the2464DTthe Court2465NPCourt ever2466RBever gets2467VVZget such2468PDTsuch a2469DTa case2470NNcase and2471CCand wants2472VVZwant to2473TOto do2474VVdo that2475DTthat .2476SENT. And2477CCand I2478PPI would2479MDwould like2480VVlike to2481TOto emphasize2482VVemphasize that2483WDTthat is2484VBZbe ...2485:... it2486PPit would2487MDwould be2488VBbe ...2489:... no2490RBno one2491CDone in2492INin any2493DTany of2494INof these2495DTthese briefs2496NNSbrief has2497VHZhave pointed2498VVNpoint to2499TOto a2500DTa pattern2501NNpattern of2502INof intersovereign2503JJintersovereign successive2504JJsuccessive prosecutions2505NNSprosecution between2506INbetween nations2507NNSnation that2508WDTthat is2509VBZbe going2510VVGgo to2511TOto be2512VBbe disrupted2513VVNdisrupt by2514INby our2515PP$our rule2516NNrule ,2517,, even2518RBeven if2519INif the2520DTthe Court2521NPCourt were2522VBDbe to2523TOto suggest2524VVsuggest that2525IN/thatthat it2526PPit 's2527VBZbe ...2528:... it2529PPit would2530MDwould also2531RBalso apply2532VVapply between2533INbetween foreign2534JJforeign nations2535NNSnation .2536SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2537LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well2538UHWell ,2539,, can2540MDcan I2541PPI ask2542VVask you2543PPyou a2544DTa different2545JJdifferent ...2546:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2547LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] We2548PPwe 've2549VHPhave been2550VBNbe through2551INthrough ...2552:... we2553PPwe 've2554VHPhave been2555VBNbe through2556INthrough all2557PDTall this2558DTthis in2559INin Bartkus2560NPBartkus ,2561,, right2562RBright ?2563SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]2564LOC[MR. CHAITEN] I2565PPI do2566VVPdo n't2567RBn't think2568VVthink the2569DTthe Court2570NPCourt has2571VHZhave been2572VBNbe ...2573:... ever2574RBever given2575VVNgive this2576DTthis question2577NNquestion a2578DTa full2579JJfull and2580CCand fair2581JJfair opportunity2582NNopportunity ,2583,, certainly2584RBcertainly post-incorporation2585NNpost-incorporation ,2586,, and2587CCand it2588PPit 's2589VBZbe important2590JJimportant to2591TOto understand2592VVunderstand how2593WRBhow the2594DTthe holding2595NNholding of2596INof this2597DTthis Court2598NPCourt arose2599VVDarise .2600SENT. There2601EXthere was2602VBDbe ,2603,, of2604INof course2605NNcourse ,2606,, a2607DTa suggestion2608NNsuggestion in2609INin Fox2610NPFox v2611NNv .2612SENT. Ohio2613NPOhio in2614INin 18472615CD@card@ that2616IN/thatthat there2617EXthere might2618MDmight be2619VBbe a2620DTa separate2621JJseparate sovereigns2622NNSsovereign exception2623NNexception .2624SENT. It2625PPit was2626VBDbe based2627VVNbase on2628INon a2629DTa non-incorporation2630NNnon-incorporation rationale2631NNrationale ,2632,, but2633CCbut no2634DTno one2635CDone actually2636RBactually ...2637:... it2638PPit 's2639POS's dicta2640NNdicta .2641SENT. It2642PPit 's2643VBZbe the2644DTthe purest2645JJSpure dicta2646NNdicta ,2647,, because2648INbecause there2649EXthere were2650VBDbe no2651DTno intersovereign2652JJintersovereign successive2653JJsuccessive prosecutions2654NNSprosecution ,2655,, not2656RBnot only2657RBonly not2658RBnot in2659INin that2660DTthat case2661NNcase but2662CCbut no2663DTno practice2664NNpractice of2665INof them2666PPthem .2667SENT. The2668DTthe first2669JJfirst time2670NNtime this2671DTthis Court2672NPCourt had2673VHDhave a2674DTa chance2675NNchance to2676TOto actually2677RBactually hold2678VVhold whether2679INwhether that2680WDTthat 's2681VBZbe permissible2682NNpermissible was2683VBDbe Lanza2684NPLanza .2685SENT. And2686CCand I2687PPI think2688VVPthink it2689PPit 's2690VBZbe worth2691JJworth reading2692VVGread the2693DTthe respondent2694NNrespondent 's2695POS's brief2696NNbrief in2697INin ...2698:... in2699INin Lanza2700NPLanza ,2701,, Lanza2702NPLanza 's2703POS's brief2704NNbrief .2705SENT. There2706EXthere was2707VBDbe no2708DTno representation2709NNrepresentation ,2710,, the2711DTthe position2712NNposition we2713PPwe 're2714VBPbe presenting2715VVGpresent here2716RBhere .2717SENT. The2718DTthe brief2719NNbrief was2720VBDbe incoherent2721JJincoherent ,2722,, and2723CCand the2724DTthe Court2725NPCourt said2726VVDsay I2727PPI think2728VVPthink what2729WPwhat counsel2730NNcounsel is2731VBZbe arguing2732VVGargue is2733VBZbe that2734IN/thatthat the2735DTthe separate2736JJseparate sovereigns2737NNSsovereign exception2738NNexception does2739VVZdo n't2740RBn't apply2741VVapply in2742INin the2743DTthe particular2744JJparticular context2745NNcontext of2746INof the2747DTthe Eighteenth2748JJeighteenth Amendment2749NPAmendment ,2750,, given2751VVNgive the2752DTthe concurrent2753JJconcurrent powers2754NNSpower of2755INof the2756DTthe states2757NNSstate and2758CCand the2759DTthe federal2760JJfederal government2761NNgovernment .2762SENT. But2763CCbut the2764DTthe ...2765:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2766LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] None2767NNnone of2768INof these2769DTthese concerns2770NNSconcern were2771VBDbe presented2772VVNpresent in2773INin Bartkus2774NPBartkus ,2775,, though2776RBthough ,2777,, right2778RBright ?2779SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]2780LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Excuse2781NNexcuse me2782PPme ?2783SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2784LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] None2785NNnone of2786INof the2787DTthe concerns2788NNSconcern you2789PPyou 've2790VHPhave been2791VBNbe talking2792VVGtalk about2793INabout there2794EXthere were2795VBDbe presented2796VVNpresent in2797INin Bartkus2798NPBartkus ?2799SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]2800LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So2801RBso ...2802:... so2803INso I2804PPI ...2805:... I2806PPI 'm2807VBPbe just2808RBjust ...2809:... I2810PPI ...2811:... Bartkus2812NPBartkus was2813VBDbe decided2814VVNdecide at2815INat the2816DTthe same2817JJsame time2818NNtime as2819INas Abbate2820NPAbbate .2821SENT. Abbate2822NPAbbate is2823VBZbe the2824DTthe case2825NNcase that2826WDTthat answers2827VVZanswer this2828DTthis particular2829JJparticular question2830NNquestion .2831SENT. Abbate2832NPAbbate remarkably2833RBremarkably says2834VVZsay we2835PPwe 're2836VBPbe just2837RBjust going2838VVGgo to2839TOto adhere2840VVadhere to2841TOto Lanza2842NPLanza because2843INbecause none2844NNnone of2845INof the2846DTthe issues2847NNSissue that2848WDTthat are2849VBPbe presented2850VVNpresent today2851NNtoday are2852VBPbe different2853JJdifferent from2854INfrom what2855WPwhat was2856VBDbe presented2857VVNpresent in2858INin Lanza2859NPLanza ,2860,, which2861WDTwhich is2862VBZbe a2863DTa really2864RBreally remarkable2865JJremarkable statement2866NNstatement .2867SENT. And2868CCand Abbate2869NPAbbate is2870VBZbe also2871RBalso pre-incorporation2872NNpre-incorporation .2873SENT. Bartkus2874NPBartkus obviously2875RBobviously is2876VBZbe a2877DTa due2878JJdue process2879NNprocess case2880NNcase under2881INunder the2882DTthe burden2883NNburden of2884INof Palko2885NPPalko v2886NNv .2887SENT. Connecticut2888NPConnecticut ,2889,, and2890CCand the2891DTthe ...2892:... the2893DTthe evidence2894NNevidence that2895IN/thatthat we2896PPwe 're2897VBPbe presenting2898VVGpresent here2899RBhere was2900VBDbe not2901RBnot fully2902RBfully presented2903VVNpresent in2904INin Bartkus2905NPBartkus .2906SENT. The2907DTthe Court2908NPCourt in2909INin ...2910:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2911LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could2912MDcould you2913PPyou say2914VVsay a2915DTa little2916JJlittle bit2917NNbit more2918RBRmore about2919RBabout why2920WRBwhy you2921PPyou think2922VVPthink incorporation2923NNincorporation or2924CCor the2925DTthe lack2926NNlack of2927INof incorporation2928NNincorporation had2929VHDhave anything2930NNanything to2931TOto do2932VVdo with2933INwith this2934DTthis question2935NNquestion ?2936SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]2937LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yeah2938NPYeah ,2939,, so2940INso I2941PPI ...2942:... I2943PPI ...2944:... Fox2945NPFox v2946NNv .2947SENT. Ohio2948NPOhio ,2949,, it2950PPit ...2951:... its2952PP$its lead2953JJlead rationale2954NNrationale is2955VBZbe non-incorporation2956NNnon-incorporation .2957SENT. And2958CCand ,2959,, I2960PPI mean2961VVPmean ,2962,, I2963PPI think2964VVPthink it2965PPit 's2966VBZbe wrong2967JJwrong ,2968,, but2969CCbut it2970PPit clearly2971RBclearly said2972VVDsay that2973IN/thatthat and2974CCand then2975RBthen Lanza2976NPLanza picked2977VVDpick it2978PPit up2979RPup and2980CCand then2981RBthen Abbate2982NPAbbate picked2983VVDpick it2984PPit up2985RPup .2986SENT. And2987CCand I2988PPI think2989VVPthink what2990WPwhat the2991DTthe Court2992NPCourt ...2993:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2994LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I2995PPI mean2996VVPmean ,2997,, there2998EXthere is2999VBZbe that3000DTthat reference3001NNreference in3002INin Fox3003NPFox ,3004,, but3005CCbut it3006PPit honestly3007RBhonestly makes3008VVZmake no3009DTno sense3010NNsense that3011IN/thatthat incorporation3012NNincorporation would3013MDwould be3014VBbe the3015DTthe basis3016NNbasis of3017INof the3018DTthe doctrine3019NNdoctrine ,3020,, because3021RBbecause ,3022,, if3023INif incorporation3024NNincorporation were3025VBDbe the3026DTthe basis3027NNbasis of3028INof the3029DTthe doctrine3030NNdoctrine ,3031,, you3032PPyou would3033MDwould have3034VHhave a3035DTa doctrine3036NNdoctrine that3037WDTthat only3038RBonly cuts3039VVZcut one3040CDone way3041NNway .3042SENT. In3043INin other3044JJother words3045NNSword ,3046,, it3047PPit would3048MDwould ...3049:... it3050PPit would3051MDwould ...3052:... the3053DTthe Court3054NPCourt would3055MDwould have3056VHhave held3057VVNhold that3058IN/thatthat the3059DTthe federal3060JJfederal government3061NNgovernment can3062MDcan 't3063RB't prosecute3064VVprosecute an3065DTan individual3066NNindividual for3067INfor the3068DTthe same3069JJsame offense3070NNoffense after3071INafter a3072DTa state3073NNstate prosecution3074NNprosecution ,3075,, but3076CCbut not3077RBnot the3078DTthe other3079JJother way3080NNway around3081RBaround .3082SENT. So3083INso the3084DTthe fact3085NNfact that3086IN/thatthat there3087EXthere 's3088VBZbe not3089RBnot a3090DTa one-way3091JJone-way ratchet3092NNratchet but3093CCbut that3094IN/thatthat ,3095,, in3096INin fact3097NNfact ,3098,, it3099PPit 's3100VBZbe a3101DTa symmetrical3102JJsymmetrical rule3103NNrule suggests3104VVZsuggest that3105IN/thatthat incorporation3106NNincorporation has3107VHZhave nothing3108NNnothing to3109TOto do3110VVdo with3111INwith it3112PPit at3113INat all3114DTall .3115SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]3116LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well3117UHwell I3118PPI think3119VVPthink what3120WPwhat the3121DTthe Court3122NPCourt was3123VBDbe getting3124VVGget at3125INat was3126VBDbe the3127DTthe ...3128:... I3129PPI think3130VVPthink the3131DTthe ...3132:... it3133PPit was3134VBDbe the3135DTthe ...3136:... the3137DTthe baronial3138JJbaronial logic3139NNlogic of3140INof it3141PPit was3142VBDbe that3143IN/thatthat "3144``" offense3145NNoffense "3146''" must3147MDmust mean3148VVmean federal3149JJfederal offense3150NNoffense because3151INbecause the3152DTthe Double3153NPDouble Jeopardy3154NNjeopardy Clause3155NNclause only3156RBonly applies3157VVZapply to3158TOto the3159DTthe federal3160JJfederal government3161NNgovernment .3162SENT. That3163DTthat 's3164VBZbe what3165WPwhat this3166DTthis Court3167NPCourt was3168VBDbe getting3169VVGget at3170INat .3171SENT. That3172DTthat 's3173VBZbe what3174WPwhat was3175VBDbe picked3176VVNpick up3177RPup in3178INin Abbate3179NPAbbate and3180CCand Lanza3181NPLanza ,3182,, and3183CCand that3184DTthat 's3185VBZbe what3186WPwhat 's3187VBZbe no3188RBno longer3189RBRlonger true3190JJtrue .3191SENT. So3192RBso as3193INas a3194DTa ...3195:... as3196INas a3197DTa pure3198JJpure ...3199:... I3200PPI ...3201:... I3202PPI do3203VVPdo n't3204RBn't think3205VVthink it3206PPit was3207VBDbe a3208DTa legitimate3209JJlegitimate rationale3210NNrationale to3211TOto begin3212VVbegin with3213INwith because3214INbecause it3215PPit conflates3216VVZconflate two3217CDtwo things3218NNSthing that3219WDTthat are3220VBPbe different3221JJdifferent :3222:: to3223TOto which3224WDTwhich government3225NNgovernment does3226VVZdo the3227DTthe clause3228NNclause apply3229VVapply and3230CCand what3231WPwhat prior3232JJprior offenses3233NNSoffense count3234VVPcount for3235INfor double3236JJdouble jeopardy3237NNjeopardy purposes3238NNSpurpose .3239SENT. That3240DTthat was3241VBDbe the3242DTthe rationale3243NNrationale .3244SENT. It3245PPit 's3246VBZbe interesting3247JJinteresting ,3248,, I3249PPI do3250VVPdo n't3251RBn't know3252VVknow that3253IN/thatthat the3254DTthe government3255NNgovernment is3256VBZbe defending3257VVGdefend that3258DTthat rationale3259NNrationale .3260SENT. They3261PPthey ...3262:... they3263PPthey ...3264:... they3265PPthey completely3266RBcompletely ignore3267VVPignore the3268DTthe non-incorporation3269NNnon-incorporation rationale3270NNrationale .3271SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3272LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I3273PPI ...3274:... I3275PPI guess3276VVPguess what3277WPwhat strikes3278VVZstrike me3279PPme ,3280,, Mr3281NPMr .3282SENT. Chaiten3283NPChaiten ,3284,, is3285VBZbe that3286IN/thatthat you3287PPyou can3288MDcan say3289VVsay ,3290,, well3291UHwell ,3292,, you3293PPyou know3294VVPknow ,3295,, this3296DTthis case3297NNcase was3298VBDbe a3299DTa little3300JJlittle bit3301NNbit different3302JJdifferent .3303SENT. And3304CCand this3305DTthis case3306NNcase ,3307,, the3308DTthe arguments3309NNSargument were3310VBDbe n't3311RBn't properly3312RBproperly presented3313VVNpresent .3314SENT. In3315INin this3316DTthis case3317NNcase ,3318,, there3319EXthere 's3320VBZbe something3321NNsomething else3322NNelse that3323WDTthat 's3324VBZbe the3325DTthe matter3326NNmatter .3327SENT. But3328CCbut ,3329,, you3330PPyou know3331VVPknow ,3332,, this3333DTthis is3334VBZbe an3335DTan 170-year-old3336JJ170-year-old rule3337NNrule ,3338,, and3339CCand it3340PPit 's3341VBZbe an3342DTan 170-year-old3343JJ170-year-old rule3344NNrule that3345WDTthat 's3346VHZhave been3347VBNbe relied3348VVNrely on3349INon by3350INby close3351NNclose on3352INon 303353CD@card@ Justices3354NPSJustices have3355VHPhave voted3356VVNvote at3357INat one3358CDone time3359NNtime or3360CCor another3361DTanother specifically3362RBspecifically for3363INfor this3364DTthis rule3365NNrule ,3366,, not3367RBnot an3368DTan application3369NNapplication of3370INof this3371DTthis ...3372:... but3373CCbut for3374INfor this3375DTthis rule3376NNrule .3377SENT. And3378CCand ,3379,, you3380PPyou know3381VVPknow ,3382,, part3383NNpart of3384INof what3385WPwhat stare3386VVPstare decisis3387NNdecisis is3388VBZbe ,3389,, is3390VBZbe a3391DTa kind3392NNkind of3393INof doctrine3394NNdoctrine of3395INof humility3396NNhumility where3397WRBwhere we3398PPwe say3399VVPsay we3400PPwe are3401VBPbe really3402RBreally uncomfortable3403JJuncomfortable throwing3404NNthrowing over3405INover 170-year-old3406JJ170-year-old rules3407NNSrule that3408IN/thatthat 303409CD@card@ Justices3410NPSJustices have3411VHPhave approved3412VVNapprove just3413RBjust because3414INbecause we3415PPwe think3416VVPthink we3417PPwe could3418MDcould kind3419RBkind of3420INof do3421VVdo it3422PPit better3423JJRgood .3424SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]3425LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well3426UHwell ,3427,, I3428PPI mean3429VVPmean ,3430,, I3431PPI disagree3432VVPdisagree with3433INwith the3434DTthe 1703435CD@card@ years3436NNSyear because3437RBbecause ,3438,, again3439RBagain ,3440,, it3441PPit 's3442VBZbe ...3443:... it3444PPit 's3445POS's dicta3446NNdicta in3447INin dicta3448NNdicta in3449INin Fox3450NPFox v3451NNv .3452SENT. Ohio3453NPOhio ,3454,, and3455CCand I3456PPI think3457VVPthink it3458PPit is3459VBZbe important3460JJimportant to3461TOto look3462VVlook at3463INat the3464DTthe rationale3465NNrationale when3466WRBwhen the3467DTthe Court3468NPCourt finally3469RBfinally had3470VHDhave an3471DTan opportunity3472NNopportunity to3473TOto decide3474VVdecide this3475DTthis and3476CCand make3477VVmake a3478DTa holding3479NNholding on3480INon it3481PPit ,3482,, and3483CCand that3484DTthat is3485VBZbe Lanza3486NPLanza .3487SENT. And3488CCand it3489PPit ...3490:... there3491EXthere 's3492VBZbe ...3493:... nothing3494NNnothing resembling3495VVGresemble an3496DTan argument3497NNargument for3498INfor the3499DTthe original3500JJoriginal understanding3501NNunderstanding the3502DTthe Double3503NPDouble Jeopardy3504NNjeopardy Clause3505NNclause was3506VBDbe presented3507VVNpresent in3508INin Lanza3509NPLanza .3510SENT. That3511DTthat was3512VBDbe picked3513VVNpick up3514RPup in3515INin Abbate3516NPAbbate .3517SENT. And3518CCand all3519PDTall these3520DTthese cases3521NNScase are3522VBPbe pre-incorporation3523NNpre-incorporation .3524SENT. The3525DTthe Court3526NPCourt has3527VHZhave held3528VVNhold repeatedly3529RBrepeatedly that3530IN/thatthat jurisprudential3531JJjurisprudential changes3532NNSchange are3533VBPbe a3534DTa reason3535NNreason to3536TOto revisit3537VVrevisit a3538DTa doctrine3539NNdoctrine and3540CCand incorporate3541VVincorporate ...3542:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3543LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But3544CCbut why3545WRBwhy is3546VBZbe the3547DTthe doctrine3548NNdoctrine wrong3549JJwrong ?3550SENT? The3551DTthe ...3552:... given3553VVNgive the3554DTthe uniqueness3555NNuniqueness of3556INof our3557PP$our system3558NNsystem of3559INof government3560NNgovernment ,3561,, because3562INbecause there3563EXthere was3564VBDbe n't3565RBn't and3566CCand is3567VBZbe n't3568RBn't a3569DTa comparable3570JJcomparable system3571NNsystem in3572INin England3573NPEngland at3574INat the3575DTthe time3576NNtime ,3577,, there3578EXthere were3579VBDbe not3580RBnot separate3581JJseparate sovereigns3582NNSsovereign ,3583,, there3584EXthere was3585VBDbe one3586CDone sovereign3587NNsovereign ,3588,, England3589NPEngland .3590SENT. And3591CCand one3592CDone of3593INof the3594DTthe cases3595NNScase you3596PPyou rely3597VVPrely on3598INon involved3599JJinvolved Wales3600NPWales ,3601,, and3602CCand so3603RBso the3604DTthe application3605NNapplication of3606INof the3607DTthe rule3608NNrule there3609RBthere makes3610VVZmake absolute3611JJabsolute sense3612NNsense in3613INin that3614DTthat context3615NNcontext .3616SENT. But3617CCbut the3618DTthe logic3619NNlogic of3620INof all3621DTall of3622INof our3623PP$our cases3624NNScase relied3625VVNrely on3626INon a3627DTa simple3628JJsimple theory3629NNtheory of3630INof ...3631:... of3632INof ...3633:... of3634INof what3635WPwhat the3636DTthe sovereignty3637NNsovereignty between3638INbetween the3639DTthe states3640NNSstate and3641CCand the3642DTthe ...3643:... and3644CCand the3645DTthe federal3646JJfederal government3647NNgovernment are3648VBPbe .3649SENT. And3650CCand you3651PPyou have3652VHPhave n't3653RBn't really3654RBreally explained3655VVNexplain why3656WRBwhy that3657DTthat logic3658NNlogic is3659VBZbe not3660RBnot sensical3661JJsensical .3662SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]3663LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well3664UHWell ,3665,, the3666DTthe ...3667:... the3668DTthe logic3669NNlogic of3670INof the3671DTthe English3672JJEnglish rule3673NNrule ,3674,, as3675RBas reported3676VVNreport in3677INin numerous3678JJnumerous treatises3679NNStreatise from3680INfrom the3681DTthe early3682JJearly 18th3683JJ18th Century3684NNcentury through3685INthrough the3686DTthe 20th3687JJ20th Century3688NNcentury ,3689,, it3690PPit 's3691VBZbe still3692RBstill the3693DTthe rule3694NNrule today3695NNtoday ,3696,, is3697VBZbe that3698IN/thatthat ,3699,, where3700WRBwhere there3701EXthere 's3702VBZbe a3703DTa court3704NNcourt of3705INof concurrent3706JJconcurrent jurisdiction3707NNjurisdiction ,3708,, even3709RBeven if3710INif it3711PPit 's3712VBZbe a3713DTa ...3714:... another3715DTanother government3716NNgovernment that3717WDTthat has3718VHZhave concurrent3719JJconcurrent jurisdiction3720NNjurisdiction ,3721,, then3722RBthen an3723DTan acquittal3724NNacquittal there3725RBthere bars3726VVZbar a3727DTa subsequent3728JJsubsequent prosecution3729NNprosecution .3730SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3731LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Do3732VVPdo you3733PPyou have3734VHPhave ...3735:... [MR. CHAITEN]3736LOC[MR. CHAITEN] And3737CCand the3738DTthe logic3739NNlogic for3740INfor ...3741:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3742LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...3743:... do3744VVPdo you3745PPyou have3746VHPhave any3747DTany current3748JJcurrent case3749NNcase that3750WDTthat describes3751VVZdescribe the3752DTthe English3753JJEnglish rule3754NNrule that3755DTthat way3756NNway ?3757SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]3758LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Current3759JJcurrent case3760NNcase ?3761SENT? [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3762LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] A3763DTa current3764JJcurrent case3765NNcase ,3766,, something3767NNsomething ...3768:... [MR. CHAITEN]3769LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So3770INso I3771PPI ...3772:... I3773PPI refer3774VVPrefer the3775DTthe Court3776NPCourt to3777TOto two3778CDtwo things3779NNSthing .3780SENT. One3781CDOne ,3782,, the3783DTthe famous3784JJfamous Professor3785NPProfessor Grant3786NPGrant article3787NNarticle ,3788,, Successive3789JJsuccessive Prosecutions3790NNSprosecution ,3791,, tracks3792VVZtrack the3793DTthe law3794NNlaw of3795INof England3796NPEngland and3797CCand the3798DTthe British3799JJBritish empire3800NNempire through3801INthrough ...3802:... through3803INthrough the3804DTthe ...3805:... into3806INinto the3807DTthe latter3808JJlatter half3809NNhalf of3810INof the3811DTthe 20th3812JJ20th Century3813NNcentury .3814SENT. There3815EXthere was3816VBDbe a3817DTa case3818NNcase in3819INin 19853820CD@card@ ,3821,, Regina3822NPRegina v3823NNv .3824SENT. Thomas3825NPThomas ,3826,, in3827INin which3828WDTwhich the3829DTthe Court3830NPCourt describes3831VVZdescribe and3832CCand applies3833VVZapply the3834DTthe rule3835NNrule .3836SENT. It3837PPit ...3838:... I3839PPI ...3840:... I3841PPI do3842VVPdo n't3843RBn't think3844VVthink the3845DTthe idea3846NNidea that3847IN/thatthat it3848PPit ...3849:... this3850DTthis is3851VBZbe not3852RBnot the3853DTthe English3854JJEnglish rule3855NNrule is3856VBZbe a3857DTa serious3858JJserious argument3859NNargument .3860SENT. I3861PPI ...3862:... I3863PPI ...3864:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]3865LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Do3866VVPdo you3867PPyou know3868VVknow how3869WRBhow the3870DTthe ...3871:... this3872DTthis rule3873NNrule applies3874VVZapply within3875INwithin the3876DTthe European3877NPEuropean Union3878NPUnion ?3879SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]3880LOC[MR. CHAITEN] It3881PPit ...3882:... it3883PPit applies3884VVZapply the3885DTthe same3886JJsame way3887NNway that3888IN/thatthat we3889PPwe are3890VBPbe urging3891VVGurge here3892RBhere .3893SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3894LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] What3895WDTwhat ...3896:... [MR. CHAITEN]3897LOC[MR. CHAITEN] That3898DTthat is3899VBZbe my3900PP$my understanding3901NNunderstanding .3902SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3903LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] The3904DTthe question3905NNquestion ,3906,, I3907PPI thought3908VVDthink ,3909,, perhaps3910RBperhaps Justice3911NPJustice Kagan3912NPKagan and3913CCand Justice3914NPJustice Ginsburg3915NPGinsburg and3916CCand Justice3917NPJustice Sotomayor3918NPSotomayor are3919VBPbe asking3920VVGask ,3921,, as3922INas I3923PPI understand3924VVPunderstand it3925PPit ...3926:... in3927INin any3928DTany case3929NNcase ,3930,, I3931PPI 'm3932VBPbe asking3933VVGask it3934PPit ...3935:... I3936PPI ...3937:... I3938PPI ...3939:... I3940PPI have3941VHPhave spent3942VVNspend a3943DTa certain3944JJcertain amount3945NNamount of3946INof time3947NNtime in3948INin these3949DTthese old3950JJold cases3951NNScase .3952SENT. I3953PPI think3954VVPthink that3955IN/thatthat Bartkus3956NPBartkus in3957INin this3958DTthis Court3959NPCourt says3960VVZsay there3961EXthere were3962VBDbe three3963CDthree with3964INwith you3965PPyou ,3966,, three3967CDthree against3968INagainst you3969PPyou ,3970,, two3971CDtwo undecided3972JJundecided .3973SENT. I3974PPI do3975VVPdo n't3976RBn't find3977VVfind it3978PPit quite3979RBquite as3980RBas clear3981JJclear ,3982,, but3983CCbut I3984PPI 'll3985MDwill go3986VVgo back3987RBback and3988CCand look3989VVlook at3990INat them3991PPthem again3992RBagain .3993SENT. But3994CCbut suppose3995VVPsuppose you3996PPyou 're3997VBPbe right3998JJright .3999SENT. Maybe4000RBmaybe Marbury4001NPMarbury versus4002CCversus Madison4003NPMadison was4004VBDbe wrong4005JJwrong .4006SENT. Maybe4007RBmaybe there4008EXthere are4009VBPbe mis-cites4010NNSmis-cites in4011INin all4012DTall kinds4013NNSkind of4014INof things4015NNSthing .4016SENT. Look4017VVlook at4018INat the4019DTthe door4020NNdoor we4021PPwe 're4022VBPbe opening4023VVGopen up4024RPup .4025SENT. And4026CCand ,4027,, here4028RBhere ,4029,, you4030PPyou 've4031VHPhave read4032VVNread the4033DTthe briefs4034NNSbrief .4035SENT. There4036EXthere are4037VBPbe ...4038:... there4039EXthere are4040VBPbe briefs4041NNSbrief that4042WDTthat say4043VVPsay remember4044VVremember the4045DTthe civil4046JJcivil rights4047NNSright world4048NNworld where4049WRBwhere people4050NNSpeople were4051VBDbe ,4052,, with4053INwith victims4054NNSvictim of4055INof a4056DTa different4057JJdifferent race4058NNrace ,4059,, simply4060RBsimply killing4061VVGkill them4062PPthem or4063CCor worse4064JJRbad ,4065,, and4066CCand the4067DTthe state4068NNstate would4069MDwould just4070RBjust ,4071,, ah4072NPah ,4073,, do4074VVPdo n't4075RBn't worry4076VVworry ,4077,, they4078PPthey 'll4079MDwill never4080RBnever convict4081VVconvict ,4082,, and4083CCand they4084PPthey did4085VVDdo n't4086RBn't .4087SENT. Or4088CCor think4089VVPthink of4090INof the4091DTthe brief4092NNbrief here4093RBhere with4094INwith the4095DTthe Indian4096JJIndian tribes4097NNStribe .4098SENT. We4099PPwe 're4100VBPbe saying4101VVGsay that4102IN/thatthat we4103PPwe need4104VVPneed this4105DTthis kind4106NNkind of4107INof thing4108NNthing for4109INfor abuse4110NNabuse of4111INof women4112NNSwoman .4113SENT. And4114CCand think4115VVPthink of4116INof the4117DTthe case4118NNcase of4119INof prohibition4120NNprohibition .4121SENT. And4122CCand think4123VVPthink of4124INof the4125DTthe cases4126NNScase that4127IN/thatthat you4128PPyou 've4129VHPhave seen4130VVNsee .4131SENT. Now4132RBnow what4133WPwhat I4134PPI looked4135VVDlook for4136INfor in4137INin your4138PP$your briefs4139NNSbrief which4140WDTwhich I4141PPI have4142VHPhave n't4143RBn't found4144VVNfind yet4145RByet but4146CCbut for4147INfor the4148DTthe military4149NNmilitary is4150VBZbe ,4151,, is4152VBZbe it4153PPit really4154RBreally the4155DTthe case4156NNcase or4157CCor not4158RBnot that4159IN/thatthat ,4160,, as4161INas a4162DTa practical4163JJpractical matter4164NNmatter ,4165,, if4166INif you4167PPyou go4168VVPgo back4169RBback the4170DTthe last4171JJlast 104172CD@card@ years4173NNSyear or4174CCor five4175CDfive or4176CCor whatever4177WDTwhatever it4178PPit is4179VBZbe ,4180,, you4181PPyou found4182VVDfind a4183DTa whole4184JJwhole lot4185NNlot of4186INof cases4187NNScase where4188WRBwhere people4189NNSpeople were4190VBDbe prosecuted4191VVNprosecute twice4192RBtwice by4193INby different4194JJdifferent sovereigns4195NNSsovereign for4196INfor what4197WPwhat was4198VBDbe the4199DTthe same4200JJsame thing4201NNthing .4202SENT. Because4203INbecause I4204PPI did4205VVDdo n't4206RBn't see4207VVsee them4208PPthem listed4209VVNlist here4210RBhere in4211INin any4212DTany brief4213NNbrief but4214CCbut for4215INfor the4216DTthe military4217NNmilitary .4218SENT. And4219CCand ...4220:... and4221CCand ,4222,, therefore4223RBtherefore ,4224,, to4225TOto me4226PPme ,4227,, that4228WDTthat 's4229VBZbe an4230DTan important4231JJimportant question4232NNquestion .4233SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]4234LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well4235UHwell ...4236:... well4237UHwell ,4238,, we4239PPwe can4240MDcan 't4241RB't know4242VVPknow for4243INfor sure4244RBsure how4245WRBhow many4246JJmany successive4247JJsuccessive prosecutions4248NNSprosecution there4249EXthere are4250VBPbe ...4251:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4252LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Of4253INof course4254NNcourse .4255SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]4256LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...4257:... because4258INbecause the4259DTthe federal4260JJfederal government4261NNgovernment and4262CCand the4263DTthe state4264NNstate ...4265:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4266LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I4267PPI do4268VVPdo n't4269RBn't expect4270VVexpect you4271PPyou to4272TOto know4273VVknow for4274INfor sure4275JJsure .4276SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]4277LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well4278UHWell ,4279,, and4280CCand I4281PPI ...4282:... and4283CCand I4284PPI ...4285:... well4286UHwell ,4287,, I4288PPI ...4289:... and4290CCand I4291PPI want4292VVPwant to4293TOto say4294VVsay the4295DTthe reason4296NNreason I4297PPI 'm4298VBPbe saying4299VVGsay we4300PPwe do4301VVPdo n't4302RBn't ...4303:... can4304MDcan 't4305RB't know4306VVknow for4307INfor sure4308JJsure is4309VBZbe because4310INbecause the4311DTthe government4312NNgovernment 's4313POS's Petite4314NPPetite policy4315NNpolicy is4316VBZbe a4317DTa secretive4318JJsecretive policy4319NNpolicy that4320IN/thatthat they4321PPthey implement4322VVimplement and4323CCand they4324PPthey do4325VVPdo n't4326RBn't really4327RBreally share4328NNshare data4329NNSdatum on4330INon it4331PPit ,4332,, other4333JJother than4334INthan the4335DTthe prosecutions4336NNSprosecution they4337PPthey decline4338VVPdecline to4339TOto make4340VVmake .4341SENT. Sources4342NNSsource from4343INfrom the4344DTthe early4345JJearly 2000s4346NNS2000s say4347VVPsay that4348IN/thatthat they4349PPthey 've4350VHPhave authorized4351VVNauthorize 1504352CD@card@ Petite4353NPPetite authorizations4354NNSauthorization per4355INper year4356NNyear .4357SENT. There4358EXthere 's4359VBZbe reason4360NNreason to4361TOto believe4362VVbelieve ,4363,, I4364PPI think4365VVPthink ...4366:... and4367CCand ,4368,, first4369RBfirst of4370INof all4371DTall ,4372,, let4373VVlet me4374PPme step4375VVstep back4376RBback and4377CCand say4378VVPsay I4379PPI do4380VVPdo n't4381RBn't think4382VVthink that4383WDTthat should4384MDshould dictate4385VVdictate what4386WPwhat the4387DTthe constitutional4388JJconstitutional rule4389NNrule is4390VBZbe .4391SENT. There4392EXthere 's4393VBZbe no4394DTno minimum4395JJminimum number4396NNnumber of4397INof constitutional4398JJconstitutional violations4399NNSviolation that4400WDTthat triggers4401VVZtrigger this4402DTthis Court4403NPCourt 's4404POS's duty4405NNduty to4406TOto enforce4407VVenforce the4408DTthe Constitution4409NPConstitution .4410SENT. But4411CCbut I4412PPI think4413VVPthink there4414EXthere 's4415VBZbe every4416DTevery reason4417NNreason to4418TOto believe4419VVbelieve that4420IN/thatthat the4421DTthe use4422NNuse of4423INof this4424DTthis intersovereign4425JJintersovereign prosecution4426NNprosecution ,4427,, particularly4428RBparticularly federal4429JJfederal after4430INafter state4431NNstate ,4432,, for4433INfor the4434DTthe same4435JJsame crime4436NNcrime is4437VBZbe increasing4438VVGincrease .4439SENT. You4440PPyou could4441MDcould just4442RBjust see4443VVsee the4444DTthe facts4445NNSfact of4446INof this4447DTthis case4448NNcase .4449SENT. It4450PPit is4451VBZbe really4452RBreally difficult4453JJdifficult ...4454:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4455LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] How4456WRBHow much4457RBmuch does4458VVZdo ...4459:... does4460VVZdo Blockburger4461NPBlockburger shrink4462VVshrink the4463DTthe significance4464NNsignificance ?4465SENT? Because4466RBbecause ...4467:... because4468INbecause with4469INwith ...4470:... if4471INif there4472EXthere 's4473VBZbe a4474DTa different4475JJdifferent element4476NNelement in4477INin one4478CDone ,4479,, that4480WDTthat 's4481VBZbe enough4482JJenough to4483TOto take4484VVtake it4485PPit out4486RPout of4487INof double4488JJdouble jeopardy4489NNjeopardy ?4490SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]4491LOC[MR. CHAITEN] If4492INif each4493DTeach has4494VHZhave a4495DTa different4496JJdifferent ...4497:... an4498DTan element4499NNelement the4500DTthe other4501JJother does4502VVZdo n't4503RBn't have4504VHhave ,4505,, then4506RBthen ,4507,, yes4508UHyes ,4509,, that4510WDTthat 's4511VBZbe enough4512JJenough to4513TOto take4514VVtake it4515PPit out4516RPout of4517INof double4518JJdouble jeopardy4519NNjeopardy .4520SENT. And4521CCand that4522DTthat ...4523:... that4524WDTthat 's4525VBZbe ...4526:... that4527WDTthat makes4528VVZmake sense4529NNsense when4530WRBwhen you4531PPyou 're4532VBPbe talking4533VVGtalk about4534RBabout federal4535JJfederal and4536CCand state4537NNstate government4538NNgovernment because4539INbecause ,4540,, if4541INif the4542DTthe federal4543JJfederal government4544NNgovernment has4545VHZhave made4546VVNmake a4547DTa considered4548VVNconsider decision4549NNdecision that4550IN/thatthat there4551EXthere 's4552VBZbe some4553DTsome substantial4554JJsubstantial federal4555JJfederal interest4556NNinterest here4557RBhere ,4558,, they4559PPthey can4560MDcan write4561VVwrite ...4562:... they4563PPthey can4564MDcan define4565VVdefine the4566DTthe crime4567NNcrime in4568INin a4569DTa way4570NNway that4571WDTthat 's4572VBZbe probably4573RBprobably going4574VVGgo to4575TOto be4576VBbe different4577JJdifferent than4578INthan ...4579:... than4580INthan ...4581:... than4582INthan crimes4583NNScrime that4584IN/thatthat states4585NNSstate prosecute4586VVprosecute which4587WDTwhich are4588VBPbe local4589JJlocal crimes4590NNScrime .4591SENT. I4592PPI think4593VVPthink it4594PPit ...4595:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4596LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I4597PPI think4598VVPthink that4599IN/thatthat it4600PPit would4601MDwould come4602VVcome under4603INunder ...4604:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4605LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Do4606VVPdo you4607PPyou know4608VVknow how4609WRBhow that4610DTthat would4611MDwould work4612VVwork for4613INfor the4614DTthe civil4615JJcivil rights4616NNSright cases4617NNScase ?4618SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]4619LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yeah4620NPYeah ...4621:... yes4622UHyes ,4623,, yes4624UHyes .4625SENT. So4626RBso ...4627:... so4628RBso ...4629:... so4630RBso ,4631,, one4632CDone ,4633,, I4634PPI want4635VVPwant to4636TOto note4637VVnote that4638IN/thatthat the4639DTthe ...4640:... the4641DTthe ...4642:... the4643DTthe ...4644:... on4645INon the4646DTthe civil4647JJcivil rights4648NNSright concern4649NNconcern ,4650,, the4651DTthe ACLU4652NPACLU supported4653VVDsupport us4654PPus .4655SENT. Other4656JJother progressive4657JJprogressive organizations4658NNSorganization have4659VHPhave supported4660VVNsupport us4661PPus .4662SENT. The4663DTthe Howard4664NPHoward Civil4665NPCivil Rights4666NPSRights Clinic4667NPClinic ,4668,, the4669DTthe Howard4670NPHoward University4671NPUniversity Thurgood4672NPThurgood Marshall4673NPMarshall Civil4674NPCivil Rights4675NPSRights Clinic4676NPClinic ,4677,, has4678VHZhave filed4679VVNfile a4680DTa brief4681NNbrief in4682INin support4683NNsupport of4684INof neither4685DTneither side4686NNside ,4687,, but4688CCbut I4689PPI believe4690VVPbelieve it4691PPit 's4692VBZbe quite4693RBquite helpful4694JJhelpful to4695TOto us4696PPus because4697INbecause it4698PPit explains4699VVZexplain why4700WRBwhy ,4701,, if4702INif the4703DTthe Court4704NPCourt adopts4705VVZadopt our4706PP$our rule4707NNrule ,4708,, it4709PPit is4710VBZbe not4711RBnot likely4712JJlikely to4713TOto be4714VBbe a4715DTa problem4716NNproblem for4717INfor civil4718JJcivil rights4719NNSright prosecutions4720NNSprosecution .4721SENT. The4722DTthe main4723JJmain tools4724NNStool for4725INfor federal4726JJfederal civil4727JJcivil rights4728NNSright prosecutions4729NNSprosecution are4730VBPbe 184731CD@card@ U4732NPU .4733SENT. S4734NPS .4735SENT. C4736LSc .4737SENT. 2414738CD@card@ and4739CCand 184740CD@card@ U4741NPU .4742SENT. S4743NPS .4744SENT. C4745LSc .4746SENT. 2424747CD@card@ .4748SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]4749LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well4750UHWell ,4751,, that4752WDTthat would4753MDwould be4754VBbe the4755DTthe case4756NNcase if4757INif the4758DTthe Blockburger4759NPBlockburger rule4760NNrule holds4761VVZhold ,4762,, but4763CCbut your4764PP$your interpretation4765NNinterpretation of4766INof the4767DTthe term4768NNterm "4769``" offence4770NNoffence "4771''" in4772INin the4773DTthe Fifth4774NPFifth Amendment4775NPAmendment is4776VBZbe perhaps4777RBperhaps inconsistent4778JJinconsistent with4779INwith the4780DTthe way4781NNway this4782DTthis Court4783NPCourt has4784VHZhave interpreted4785VVNinterpret that4786DTthat ...4787:... that4788DTthat concept4789NNconcept in4790INin Blockburger4791NPBlockburger cases4792NNScase .4793SENT. Is4794VBZbe n't4795RBn't that4796DTthat true4797JJtrue ?4798SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]4799LOC[MR. CHAITEN] I4800PPI ...4801:... I4802PPI do4803VVPdo n't4804RBn't think4805VVthink it4806PPit 's4807VBZbe the4808DTthe least4809JJSleast bit4810NNbit inconsistent4811JJinconsistent .4812SENT. I4813PPI think4814VVPthink if4815INif you4816PPyou look4817VVPlook at4818INat ...4819:... if4820INif you4821PPyou look4822VVPlook at4823INat ...4824:... so4825INso they4826PPthey ...4827:... the4828DTthe ...4829:... the4830DTthe current4831JJcurrent understanding4832NNunderstanding ,4833,, the4834DTthe Blockburger4835NPBlockburger rule4836NNrule derives4837VVZderive from4838INfrom Justice4839NPJustice Scalia4840NPScalia 's4841POS's dissent4842NNdissent in4843INin Grady4844NPGrady v4845NNv .4846SENT. Corbin4847NPCorbin ,4848,, which4849WDTwhich had4850VHDhave ...4851:... which4852WDTwhich was4853VBDbe adopted4854VVNadopt in4855INin Dixon4856NPDixon ,4857,, and4858CCand it4859PPit 's4860VBZbe exactly4861RBexactly what4862WPwhat we4863PPwe 're4864VBPbe saying4865VVGsay it4866PPit is4867VBZbe .4868SENT. It4869PPit 's4870VBZbe a4871DTa crime4872NNcrime defined4873VVNdefine by4874INby the4875DTthe same4876JJsame elements4877NNSelement or4878CCor ...4879:... or4880CCor a4881DTa lot4882NNlot lesser4883JJRlesser ...4884:... [JUSTICE ALITO]4885LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But4886CCbut did4887VVDdo n't4888RBn't he4889PPhe ...4890:... did4891VVDdo n't4892RBn't he4893PPhe say4894VVPsay it4895PPit is4896VBZbe the4897DTthe elements4898NNSelement defined4899VVNdefine by4900INby a4901DTa particular4902JJparticular sovereign4903NNsovereign ?4904SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]4905LOC[MR. CHAITEN] I4906PPI ...4907:... I4908PPI do4909VVPdo n't4910RBn't believe4911VVbelieve he4912PPhe actually4913RBactually said4914VVDsay that4915IN/thatthat in4916INin Grady4917NPGrady v4918NNv .4919SENT. Corbin4920NPCorbin ,4921,, and4922CCand I4923PPI do4924VVPdo n't4925RBn't think4926VVthink the4927DTthe Court4928NPCourt said4929VVDsay that4930IN/thatthat in4931INin Dixon4932NPDixon .4933SENT. There4934EXthere was4935VBDbe nothing4936NNnothing sovereign-specific4937JJsovereign-specific about4938INabout it4939PPit .4940SENT. The4941DTthe government4942NNgovernment tries4943VVZtry to4944TOto say4945VVsay that4946IN/thatthat it4947PPit 's4948VBZbe ...4949:... it4950PPit ...4951:... it4952PPit ...4953:... it4954PPit 's4955VBZbe necessarily4956RBnecessarily a4957DTa rule4958NNrule of4959INof legislative4960JJlegislative intent4961NNintent which4962WDTwhich makes4963VVZmake it4964PPit sovereign-specific4965JJsovereign-specific .4966SENT. But4967CCbut that4968DTthat ...4969:... that4970WDTthat is4971VBZbe not4972RBnot what4973WPwhat ...4974:... that4975WDTthat is4976VBZbe not4977RBnot what4978WPwhat the4979DTthe English4980JJEnglish authorities4981NNSauthority said4982VVDsay .4983SENT. Now4984RBnow the4985DTthe English4986JJEnglish ...4987:... [JUSTICE ALITO]4988LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Can4989MDcan I4990PPI go4991VVgo back4992RBback to4993TOto the4994DTthe way4995NNway you4996PPyou began4997VVDbegin ?4998SENT? I4999PPI mean5000VVPmean ,5001,, you5002PPyou told5003VVDtell us5004PPus that5005IN/thatthat there5006EXthere is5007VBZbe a5008DTa mountain5009NNmountain of5010INof evidence5011NNevidence supporting5012VVGsupport your5013PP$your interpretation5014NNinterpretation of5015INof the5016DTthe original5017JJoriginal meaning5018NNmeaning of5019INof the5020DTthe Double5021NPDouble Jeopardy5022NNjeopardy Clause5023NNclause .5024SENT. Put5025VVNput aside5026RPaside Hutchinson5027NPHutchinson and5028CCand put5029VVput aside5030RPaside the5031DTthe case5032NNcase involving5033VVGinvolve Welsh5034JJWelsh law5035NNlaw that5036IN/thatthat Justice5037NPJustice Sotomayor5038NPSotomayor referred5039VVDrefer to5040TOto .5041SENT. Can5042MDcan you5043PPyou cite5044VVcite any5045DTany 17th5046JJ17th ...5047:... any5048DTany 16th5049JJ16th or5050CCor 17th5051JJ17th or5052CCor 18th5053JJ18th Century5054NPCentury British5055JJBritish case5056NNcase in5057INin which5058WDTwhich a5059DTa foreign5060JJforeign judgment5061NNjudgment actually5062RBactually barred5063VVDbar a5064DTa prosecution5065NNprosecution in5066INin Great5067NPGreat Britain5068NPBritain ?5069SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5070LOC[MR. CHAITEN] In5071INin Great5072NPGreat Britain5073NPBritain ?5074SENT? Well5075UHwell ,5076,, it5077PPit ...5078:... it5079PPit 's5080VBZbe ...5081:... it5082PPit 's5083VBZbe Hutchinson5084NPHutchinson .5085SENT. The5086DTthe actual5087JJactual holding5088NNholding of5089INof Roche5090NPRoche was5091VBDbe that5092IN/thatthat the5093DTthe plea5094NNplea of5095INof autrefois5096NNSautrefois acquit5097VVPacquit based5098VVNbase on5099INon foreign5100JJforeign acquittal5101NNacquittal would5102MDwould be5103VBbe a5104DTa bar5105NNbar because5106INbecause that5107DTthat ...5108:... if5109INif that5110WDTthat was5111VBDbe necessary5112JJnecessary to5113TOto the5114DTthe court5115NNcourt 's5116POS's decision5117NNdecision ,5118,, the5119DTthe court5120NNcourt was5121VBDbe deciding5122VVGdecide whether5123INwhether ...5124:... whether5125INwhether the5126DTthe defendant5127NNdefendant could5128MDcould plead5129VVplead that5130IN/thatthat and5131CCand innocence5132NNinnocence at5133INat the5134DTthe same5135JJsame time5136NNtime and5137CCand said5138VVDsay it5139PPit ...5140:... it5141PPit could5142MDcould n't5143RBn't because5144INbecause the5145DTthe plea5146NNplea of5147INof autrefois5148NNSautrefois acquit5149VVPacquit based5150VVNbase on5151INon foreign5152JJforeign conviction5153NNconviction would5154MDwould be5155VBbe a5156DTa bar5157NNbar .5158SENT. It5159PPit 's5160VBZbe true5161JJtrue that5162IN/thatthat the5163DTthe Hutchinson5164NPHutchinson ...5165:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5166LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well5167UHwell ,5168,, there5169EXthere 's5170VBZbe ...5171:... I5172PPI mean5173VVPmean ,5174,, there5175EXthere are5176VBPbe questions5177NNSquestion about5178INabout Roche5179NPRoche .5180SENT. What5181WPWhat ...5182:... in5183INin the5184DTthe version5185NNversion of5186INof the5187DTthe opinion5188NNopinion that5189WDTthat was5190VBDbe available5191JJavailable at5192INat the5193DTthe time5194NNtime of5195INof the5196DTthe founding5197NNfounding ,5198,, was5199VBDbe Hutchinson5200NPHutchinson even5201RBeven cited5202VVDcite ?5203SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5204LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Hutchinson5205NPHutchinson was5206VBDbe n't5207RBn't cited5208VVNcite ,5209,, but5210CCbut Roche5211NPRoche on5212INon its5213PP$its own5214JJown ...5215:... Roche5216NPRoche on5217INon its5218PP$its own5219JJown stood5220VVDstand for5221INfor that5222DTthat proposition5223NNproposition .5224SENT. And5225CCand then5226RBthen ,5227,, in5228INin 18005229CD@card@ ,5230,, the5231DTthe Hutchinson5232NPHutchinson explanation5233NNexplanation was5234VBDbe added5235VVNadd to5236TOto the5237DTthe opinion5238NNopinion .5239SENT. This5240DTthis Court5241NNcourt is5242VBZbe ...5243:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5244LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So5245CCso this5246DTthis is5247VBZbe the5248DTthe mount5249NNmount ...5250:... this5251DTthis is5252VBZbe a5253DTa mountain5254NNmountain ?5255SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5256LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The5257NPThe ...5258:... the5259DTthe mountain5260NNmountain ...5261:... I5262PPI would5263MDwould primarily5264RBprimarily start5265VVstart with5266INwith the5267DTthe treatises5268NNStreatise .5269SENT. And5270CCand ,5271,, by5272INby the5273DTthe way5274NNway ,5275,, in5276INin the5277DTthe ...5278:... in5279INin the5280DTthe Grady5281NPGrady v5282NNv .5283SENT. Corbin5284NPCorbin dissent5285NNdissent ,5286,, the5287DTthe entirety5288NNentirety of5289INof the5290DTthe English5291JJEnglish common5292JJcommon law5293NNlaw evidence5294NNevidence of5295INof that5296WDTthat the5297DTthe Court5298NPCourt ...5299:... that5300IN/thatthat Justice5301NPJustice Scalia5302NPScalia relied5303VVDrely on5304INon ,5305,, that5306WDTthat then5307RBthen became5308VVDbecome the5309DTthe opinion5310NNopinion of5311INof the5312DTthe Court5313NPCourt in5314INin Dixon5315NPDixon ,5316,, was5317VBDbe five5318CDfive treatises5319NNStreatise ,5320,, one5321CDone pre-ratification5322NNpre-ratification case5323NNcase that5324WDTthat was5325VBDbe dicta5326NNdicta ,5327,, and5328CCand one5329CDone post-ratification5330NNpost-ratification case5331NNcase that5332WDTthat adopted5333VVDadopt it5334PPit .5335SENT. So5336INso that5337WDTthat was5338VBDbe ...5339:... that5340WDTthat was5341VBDbe the5342DTthe way5343NNway the5344DTthe originalist5345NNoriginalist inquiry5346NNinquiry happened5347VVDhappen .5348SENT. If5349INif you5350PPyou want5351VVPwant to5352TOto know5353VVknow what5354WPwhat the5355DTthe public5356JJpublic understanding5357NNunderstanding of5358INof the5359DTthe rule5360NNrule was5361VBDbe ...5362:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5363LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Do5364VVPdo you5365PPyou have5366VHPhave any5367DTany evidence5368NNevidence that5369IN/thatthat most5370JJSmost of5371INof these5372DTthese treatises5373NNStreatise ...5374:... that5375IN/thatthat these5376DTthese treatises5377NNStreatise ...5378:... with5379INwith the5380DTthe exception5381NNexception of5382INof Blackstone5383NPBlackstone ,5384,, which5385WDTwhich was5386VBDbe every5387DTevery lawyer5388NNlawyer 's5389POS's bible5390NNbible at5391INat the5392DTthe time5393NNtime of5394INof the5395DTthe founding5396NNfounding .5397SENT. But5398CCbut there5399EXthere 's5400VBZbe almost5401RBalmost nothing5402NNnothing in5403INin Blackstone5404NPBlackstone about5405INabout this5406DTthis .5407SENT. These5408DTthese other5409JJother treatises5410NNStreatise were5411VBDbe well-known5412JJwell-known to5413TOto the5414DTthe members5415NNSmember of5416INof the5417DTthe first5418JJfirst Congress5419NPCongress and5420CCand to5421TOto the5422DTthe ...5423:... the5424DTthe members5425NNSmember of5426INof the5427DTthe state5428NNstate ratifying5429VVGratify conventions5430NNSconvention ?5431SENT? They5432PPthey had5433VHDhave these5434DTthese treatises5435NNStreatise on5436INon their5437PP$their bookshelves5438NNSbookshelve and5439CCand that5440DTthat was5441VBDbe what5442WPwhat they5443PPthey looked5444VVDlook to5445TOto ?5446SENT? Do5447VVdo you5448PPyou have5449VHPhave any5450DTany evidence5451NNevidence of5452INof that5453DTthat ?5454SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5455LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yeah5456NPYeah .5457SENT. Yes5458UHyes .5459SENT. These5460DTthese treatises5461NNStreatise were5462VBDbe all5463DTall ...5464:... all5465PDTall the5466DTthe treatises5467NNStreatise we5468PPwe cite5469VVPcite were5470VBDbe available5471JJavailable in5472INin America5473NPAmerica .5474SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5475LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] They5476PPthey were5477VBDbe ?5478SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5479LOC[MR. CHAITEN] They5480PPthey were5481VBDbe well-known5482JJwell-known treatises5483NNStreatise .5484SENT. The5485DTthe Buller5486NPBuller treatise5487NNtreatise ,5488,, which5489WDTwhich the5490DTthe government5491NNgovernment seems5492VVZseem to5493TOto enjoy5494VVenjoy taking5495VVGtake potshots5496NNSpotshot at5497INat ...5498:... the5499DTthe Buller5500NPBuller treatise5501NNtreatise was5502VBDbe written5503VVNwrite by5504INby Sir5505NPSir Francis5506NPFrancis Buller5507NPBuller ,5508,, who5509WPwho was5510VBDbe a5511DTa member5512NNmember of5513INof the5514DTthe King5515NPKing 's5516POS's Bench5517NPBench at5518INat the5519DTthe time5520NNtime of5521INof the5522DTthe framing5523NNframing .5524SENT. It5525PPit is5526VBZbe cited5527VVNcite in5528INin numerous5529JJnumerous cases5530NNScase in5531INin this5532DTthis country5533NNcountry ,5534,, pre-framing5535NNpre-framing and5536CCand post-framing5537NNpost-framing ,5538,, for5539INfor criminal5540JJcriminal law5541NNlaw principles5542NNSprinciple and5543CCand civil5544JJcivil law5545NNlaw principles5546NNSprinciple .5547SENT. So5548RBso three5549CDthree ...5550:... three5551CDthree of5552INof the5553DTthe five5554CDfive treatises5555NNStreatise that5556IN/thatthat Justice5557NPJustice Scalia5558NPScalia relied5559VVDrely on5560INon in5561INin Grady5562NPGrady v5563NNv .5564SENT. Corbin5565NPCorbin are5566VBPbe ...5567:... are5568VBPbe treatises5569NNStreatise we5570PPwe rely5571VVPrely on5572INon here5573RBhere ,5574,, Hawkins5575NPHawkins ,5576,, Starkie5577NPStarkie ,5578,, and5579CCand Chitty5580NPChitty .5581SENT. You5582PPyou know5583VVPknow ,5584,, this5585DTthis is5586VBZbe ...5587:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5588LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Those5589DTthose treatises5590NNStreatise do5591VVPdo n't5592RBn't cite5593VVcite any5594DTany actual5595JJactual authority5596NNauthority .5597SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]5598LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Those5599DTthose treatises5600NNStreatise ?5601SENT? [JUSTICE ALITO]5602LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] What5603WDTwhat ...5604:... what5605WPwhat actual5606JJactual authority5607NNauthority ?5608SENT? What5609WPWhat holdings5610NNSholding of5611INof pre-Fifth5612JJpre-Fifth Amendment-adoption5613NNAmendment-adoption courts5614NNScourt are5615VBPbe cited5616VVNcite in5617INin those5618DTthose ...5619:... can5620MDcan be5621VBbe cited5622VVNcite in5623INin those5624DTthose treatises5625NNStreatise ?5626SENT? You5627PPyou 're5628VBPbe just5629RBjust ...5630:... [MR. CHAITEN]5631LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yeah5632NPYeah ,5633,, MacNally5634NPMacNally ...5635:... MacNally5636NPMacNally cites5637VVZcite Hutchinson5638NPHutchinson and5639CCand cites5640VVZcite ...5641:... and5642CCand cites5643VVZcite Roche5644NPRoche .5645SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]5646LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Hutchinson5647NPHutchinson ?5648SENT? Do5649VVdo we5650PPwe have5651VHPhave the5652DTthe ...5653:... [MR. CHAITEN]5654LOC[MR. CHAITEN] It5655PPit just5656RBjust does5657VVZdo n't5658RBn't cite5659VVcite them5660PPthem .5661SENT. It5662PPit discusses5663VVZdiscuss them5664PPthem .5665SENT. And5666CCand it5667PPit says5668VVZsay ...5669:... [JUSTICE ALITO]5670LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Do5671VVPdo we5672PPwe have5673VHPhave ...5674:... do5675VVPdo we5676PPwe have5677VHPhave the5678DTthe opinion5679NNopinion in5680INin Hutchinson5681NPHutchinson ?5682SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5683LOC[MR. CHAITEN] There5684EXthere is5685VBZbe a5686DTa bail5687NNbail notation5688NNnotation ,5689,, and5690CCand that5691DTthat is5692VBZbe the5693DTthe only5694JJonly thing5695NNthing that5696WDTthat survived5697VVDsurvive ,5698,, and5699CCand the5700DTthe scholars5701NNSscholar have5702VHPhave ...5703:... scholarship5704NNscholarship has5705VHZhave long5706RBlong noted5707VVNnote that5708IN/thatthat that5709DTthat was5710VBDbe from5711INfrom one5712CDone phase5713NNphase of5714INof the5715DTthe case5716NNcase .5717SENT. But5718CCbut it5719PPit does5720VVZdo n't5721RBn't matter5722VVmatter .5723SENT. It5724PPit does5725VVZdo n't5726RBn't matter5727VVmatter because5728INbecause we5729PPwe have5730VHPhave the5731DTthe King5732NPKing 's5733POS's Bench5734NPBench repeatedly5735RBrepeatedly saying5736VVGsay this5737DTthis is5738VBZbe the5739DTthe rule5740NNrule ,5741,, this5742DTthis is5743VBZbe the5744DTthe rule5745NNrule .5746SENT. And5747CCand ...5748:... and5749CCand the5750DTthe government5751NNgovernment cites5752VVZcite not5753RBnot a5754DTa single5755JJsingle authority5756NNauthority to5757TOto the5758DTthe contrary5759NNcontrary ,5760,, stating5761VVGstate an5762DTan opposite5763JJopposite rule5764NNrule .5765SENT. There5766EXthere 's5767VBZbe no5768DTno ...5769:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5770LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Counsel5771NPCounsel ,5772,, I5773PPI apologize5774VVPapologize for5775INfor ping-ponging5776VVGping-ponging you5777PPyou from5778INfrom the5779DTthe ...5780:... from5781INfrom the5782DTthe framing5783NNframing back5784RBback to5785TOto the5786DTthe present5787NNpresent ,5788,, but5789CCbut I5790PPI 'd5791MDwould like5792VVlike to5793TOto return5794VVreturn you5795PPyou to5796TOto Justice5797NPJustice Breyer5798NPBreyer 's5799POS's question5800NNquestion about5801INabout the5802DTthe impact5803NNimpact this5804DTthis might5805MDmight have5806VHhave on5807INon civil5808JJcivil rights5809NNSright organizations5810NNSorganization and5811CCand ...5812:... and5813CCand others5814NNSother .5815SENT. You5816PPyou know5817VVPknow ,5818,, the5819DTthe stare5820NNstare decisis5821NNdecisis considerations5822NNSconsideration ,5823,, one5824CDone of5825INof which5826WDTwhich would5827MDwould be5828VBbe are5829VBPbe we5830PPwe upsetting5831VVGupset settled5832VVNsettle expectations5833NNSexpectation currently5834RBcurrently ?5835SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]5836LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well5837UHwell ,5838,, I5839PPI do5840VVPdo n't5841RBn't think5842VVthink it5843PPit would5844MDwould have5845VHhave an5846DTan impact5847NNimpact on5848INon civil5849JJcivil rights5850NNSright litigation5851NNlitigation .5852SENT. As5853INas I5854PPI was5855VBDbe ...5856:... as5857INas I5858PPI was5859VBDbe saying5860VVGsay ,5861,, I5862PPI think5863VVPthink the5864DTthe ...5865:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5866LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] You5867PPyou started5868VVDstart ,5869,, but5870CCbut I'm5871NPI'm ...5872:... I5873PPI 'd5874MDwould like5875VVlike you5876PPyou to5877TOto develop5878VVdevelop that5879IN/thatthat further5880RBRfurther .5881SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]5882LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yes5883NPYes ...5884:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5885LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I5886PPI did5887VVDdo n't5888RBn't get5889VVget a5890DTa complete5891JJcomplete answer5892NNanswer .5893SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]5894LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Sorry5895RBsorry .5896SENT. And5897CCand so5898RBso I5899PPI mentioned5900VVDmention that5901IN/thatthat the5902DTthe primary5903JJprimary tools5904NNStool of5905INof the5906DTthe federal5907JJfederal government5908NNgovernment in5909INin the5910DTthe area5911NNarea of5912INof civil5913JJcivil rights5914NNSright prosecution5915NNprosecution are5916VBPbe 185917CD@card@ U5918NPU .5919SENT. S5920NPS .5921SENT. C5922LSc .5923SENT. 2415924CD@card@ and5925CCand 2425926CD@card@ .5927SENT. 2415928CD@card@ is5929VBZbe conspiracy5930NNconspiracy to5931TOto deprive5932VVdeprive someone5933NNsomeone of5934INof their5935PP$their constitutional5936JJconstitutional rights5937NNSright under5938INunder color5939NNcolor of5940INof law5941NNlaw .5942SENT. 2425943CD@card@ is5944VBZbe actually5945RBactually doing5946VVGdo it5947PPit .5948SENT. Those5949DTthose are5950VBPbe n't5951RBn't going5952VVGgo to5953TOto be5954VBbe the5955DTthe same5956JJsame offenses5957NNSoffense as5958RBas ,5959,, say5960VVPsay ...5961:... [JUSTICE BREYER]5962LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Now5963RBnow .5964SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]5965LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...5966:... a5967DTa murder5968NNmurder or5969CCor an5970DTan assault5971NNassault .5972SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]5973LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Now5974RBnow .5975SENT. Now5976RBnow .5977SENT. But5978CCbut a5979DTa state5980NNstate ...5981:... well5982RBwell ,5983,, I5984PPI do5985VVPdo n't5986RBn't ...5987:... I5988PPI can5989MDcan 't5990RB't foresee5991VVPforesee the5992DTthe future5993NNfuture .5994SENT. And5995CCand it5996PPit would5997MDwould n't5998RBn't be5999VBbe that6000RBthat hard6001JJhard .6002SENT. It6003PPit would6004MDwould n't6005RBn't have6006VHhave been6007VBNbe ...6008:... [MR. CHAITEN]6009LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well6010UHWell ,6011,, in6012INin the6013DTthe federal6014JJfederal government6015NNgovernment ,6016,, if6017INif ...6018:... [JUSTICE BREYER]6019LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...6020:... for6021INfor a6022DTa state6023NNstate in6024INin the6025DTthe ...6026:... you6027PPyou see6028VVPsee ?6029SENT? Look6030NNlook ,6031,, what6032WPwhat 's6033VBZbe actually6034RBactually bothering6035VVGbother me6036PPme is6037VBZbe ,6038,, yes6039UHyes ,6040,, I6041PPI know6042VVPknow you6043PPyou 're6044VBPbe convinced6045VVNconvince on6046INon the6047DTthe history6048NNhistory .6049SENT. I6050PPI also6051RBalso know6052VVPknow that6053DTthat ...6054:... that6055IN/thatthat ,6056,, there6057RBthere ,6058,, it6059PPit may6060MDmay be6061VBbe less6062RBRless clear6063JJclear than6064INthan you6065PPyou think6066VVPthink ,6067,, but6068CCbut maybe6069RBmaybe not6070RBnot ,6071,, that6072IN/thatthat this6073DTthis Court6074NPCourt several6075JJseveral times6076NNStime has6077VHZhave looked6078VVNlook at6079INat the6080DTthe history6081NNhistory and6082CCand they6083PPthey 've6084VHPhave said6085VVNsay it6086PPit 's6087VBZbe inconclusive6088JJinconclusive and6089CCand ,6090,, therefore6091RBtherefore ...6092:... and6093CCand now6094RBnow we6095PPwe have6096VHPhave a6097DTa rule6098NNrule that6099WDTthat 's6100VHZhave been6101VBNbe there6102RBthere a6103DTa long6104JJlong ,6105,, long6106JJlong time6107NNtime .6108SENT. And6109CCand if6110INif we6111PPwe 're6112VBPbe going6113VVGgo to6114TOto go6115VVgo back6116RBback and6117CCand look6118VVlook to6119TOto whether6120INwhether this6121DTthis Court6122NPCourt got6123VVDget the6124DTthe history6125NNhistory right6126NNright in6127INin cases6128NNScase ,6129,, I6130PPI have6131VHPhave my6132PP$my own6133JJown candidates6134NNScandidate .6135SENT. Is6136VBZbe that6137DTthat ...6138:... [MR. CHAITEN]6139LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So6140RBso ...6141:... [JUSTICE BREYER]6142LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...6143:... okay6144JJokay ?6145SENT? So6146RBso ...6147:... so6148RBso ...6149:... so6150RBso now6151RBnow ...6152:... [MR. CHAITEN]6153LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...6154:... I6155PPI do6156VVPdo n't6157RBn't agree6158VVagree that6159IN/thatthat the6160DTthe Court6161NPCourt has6162VHZhave several6163JJseveral times6164NNStime looked6165VVDlook ...6166:... [JUSTICE BREYER]6167LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...6168:... my6169PP$my problem6170NNproblem is6171VBZbe that6172RBthat .6173SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]6174LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The6175NPThe Court6176NPCourt ...6177:... [JUSTICE BREYER]6178LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] My6179PP$my problem6180NNproblem is6181VBZbe ,6182,, is6183VBZbe this6184DTthis a6185DTa basis6186NNbasis for6187INfor going6188VVGgo back6189RBback ,6190,, the6191DTthe same6192JJsame one6193CDone that6194WDTthat ...6195:... the6196DTthe same6197JJsame question6198NNquestion .6199SENT. But6200CCbut I6201PPI have6202VHPhave n't6203RBn't heard6204VVNhear the6205DTthe answer6206NNanswer that6207IN/thatthat Justice6208NPJustice Kagan6209NPKagan started6210VVDstart with6211INwith .6212SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]6213LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So6214RBso ...6215:... so6216RBso ...6217:... so6218RBso two6219CDtwo ...6220:... two6221CDtwo responses6222NNSresponse .6223SENT. And6224CCand one6225CDone ,6226,, could6227MDcould I6228PPI ...6229:... if6230INif I6231PPI could6232MDcould finish6233VVfinish on6234INon the6235DTthe civil6236JJcivil rights6237NNSright issue6238NNissue .6239SENT. I6240PPI just6241RBjust wanted6242VVDwant to6243TOto add6244VVadd that6245IN/thatthat the6246DTthe federal6247JJfederal government6248NNgovernment can6249MDcan take6250VVtake control6251NNcontrol in6252INin all6253DTall manner6254NNmanner of6255INof ways6256NNSway .6257SENT. In6258INin a6259DTa particular6260JJparticular case6261NNcase ,6262,, they6263PPthey can6264MDcan take6265VVtake custody6266NNcustody of6267INof someone6268NNsomeone via6269INvia an6270DTan ad6271NNad prosequendum6272NNprosequendum writ6273NNwrit .6274SENT. If6275INif Congress6276NPCongress ...6277:... if6278INif ...6279:... if6280INif ...6281:... if6282INif states6283NNSstate were6284VBDbe becoming6285VVGbecome uncooperative6286JJuncooperative in6287INin the6288DTthe area6289NNarea of6290INof civil6291JJcivil rights6292NNSright ,6293,, and6294CCand this6295DTthis were6296VBDbe really6297RBreally a6298DTa problem6299NNproblem ,6300,, which6301WDTwhich it6302PPit does6303VVZdo n't6304RBn't seem6305VVseem to6306TOto be6307VBbe today6308NNtoday ,6309,, the6310DTthe federal6311JJfederal government6312NNgovernment could6313MDcould preempt6314VVpreempt certain6315JJcertain state6316NNstate crimes6317NNScrime .6318SENT. There6319EXthere are6320VBPbe any6321DTany number6322NNnumber of6323INof ways6324NNSway the6325DTthe ...6326:... the6327DTthe federal6328JJfederal government6329NNgovernment could6330MDcould take6331VVtake control6332NNcontrol if6333INif ,6334,, in6335INin the6336DTthe future6337NNfuture ,6338,, there6339EXthere were6340VBDbe these6341DTthese problems6342NNSproblem that6343IN/thatthat we6344PPwe can6345MDcan 't6346RB't foresee6347VVPforesee today6348NNtoday .6349SENT. And6350CCand then6351RBthen ,6352,, as6353RBas far6354RBfar as6355INas the6356DTthe ...6357:... the6358DTthe history6359NNhistory being6360VBGbe analyzed6361VVNanalyze in6362INin several6363JJseveral opinions6364NNSopinion of6365INof this6366DTthis Court6367NPCourt ,6368,, no6369RBno ,6370,, which6371WDTwhich ...6372:... respectfully6373RBrespectfully ,6374,, Your6375PP$your Honor6376NPHonor ,6377,, I6378PPI disagree6379VVPdisagree .6380SENT. It6381PPit is6382VBZbe one6383CDone footnote6384NNfootnote in6385INin one6386CDone opinion6387NNopinion .6388SENT. It6389PPit is6390VBZbe Footnote6391NNfootnote 96392CD9 of6393INof Bartkus6394NPBartkus .6395SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6396LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I6397PPI ...6398:... I6399PPI think6400VVPthink the6401DTthe question6402NNquestion ,6403,, though6404RBthough ,6405,, is6406VBZbe ,6407,, of6408INof all6409PDTall the6410DTthe errors6411NNSerror this6412DTthis Court6413NPCourt has6414VHZhave made6415VVNmake over6416INover the6417DTthe years6418NNSyear ...6419:... [6420SYM[ LAUGHTER6421NNlaughter ]6422SYM] [JUSTICE BREYER]6423LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] That6424DTthat 's6425VBZbe right6426JJright .6427SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6428LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] ...6429:... why6430WRBwhy this6431DTthis one6432CDone ?6433SENT? Why6434WRBwhy should6435MDshould we6436PPwe care6437VVcare about6438INabout this6439DTthis one6440CDone ?6441SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]6442LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well6443UHwell ...6444:... well6445UHwell ,6446,, we6447PPwe should6448MDshould care6449VVcare because6450INbecause there6451EXthere is6452VBZbe an6453DTan ancient6454JJancient right6455NNright not6456RBnot to6457TOto be6458VBbe tried6459VVNtry twice6460RBtwice for6461INfor the6462DTthe same6463JJsame crime6464NNcrime .6465SENT. And6466CCand the6467DTthe original6468JJoriginal understanding6469NNunderstanding of6470INof the6471DTthe Double6472NPDouble Jeopardy6473NNjeopardy Clause6474NNclause considers6475VVZconsider this6476DTthis the6477DTthe same6478JJsame crime6479NNcrime .6480SENT. It6481PPit would6482MDwould allow6483VVallow ...6484:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6485LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But6486CCbut ,6487,, Mr6488NPMr .6489SENT. Chaiten6490RBChaiten ,6491,, I6492PPI mean6493VVPmean ,6494,, one6495CDone of6496INof the6497DTthe ...6498:... [MR. CHAITEN]6499LOC[MR. CHAITEN] You6500PPyou should6501MDshould care6502VVcare ...6503:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6504LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I6505PPI 'm6506VBPbe sorry6507JJsorry .6508SENT. Please6509UHPlease .6510SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]6511LOC[MR. CHAITEN] You6512PPyou should6513MDshould ...6514:... you6515PPyou should6516MDshould care6517VVcare because6518INbecause we6519PPwe 've6520VHPhave cited6521VVNcite examples6522NNSexample of6523INof cases6524NNScase where6525WRBwhere a6526DTa state6527NNstate court6528NNcourt ...6529:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6530LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] I6531PPI ...6532:... I6533PPI ...6534:... I6535PPI ...6536:... I6537PPI ...6538:... [MR. CHAITEN]6539LOC[MR. CHAITEN] ...6540:... acquitted6541VVNacquit someone6542NNsomeone of6543INof murder6544NNmurder and6545CCand the6546DTthe federal6547JJfederal government6548NNgovernment convicted6549VVNconvict .6550SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6551LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Counsel6552NPCounsel ...6553:... counsel6554NNcounsel ,6555,, I6556PPI 'm6557VBPbe sorry6558JJsorry to6559TOto interrupt6560VVinterrupt ,6561,, but6562CCbut I6563PPI ...6564:... I6565PPI think6566VVPthink ...6567:... I6568PPI think6569VVPthink we6570PPwe 've6571VHPhave got6572VVNget that6573IN/thatthat ,6574,, okay6575JJokay ?6576SENT? I6577PPI think6578VVPthink it6579PPit ...6580:... it6581PPit 's6582VBZbe just6583RBjust a6584DTa practical6585JJpractical question6586NNquestion .6587SENT. It6588PPit took6589VVDtake until6590INuntil last6591JJlast year6592NNyear for6593INfor this6594DTthis Court6595NPCourt to6596TOto overrule6597VVoverrule Korematsu6598NPKorematsu .6599SENT. Why6600WRBwhy is6601VBZbe this6602DTthis case6603NNcase ,6604,, practically6605RBpractically ,6606,, today6607NNtoday important6608JJimportant ?6609SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]6610LOC[MR. CHAITEN] It6611PPit is6612VBZbe ...6613:... it6614PPit is6615VBZbe important6616JJimportant for6617INfor the6618DTthe ...6619:... it6620PPit is6621VBZbe important6622JJimportant because6623INbecause we6624PPwe currently6625RBcurrently have6626VHPhave a6627DTa rule6628NNrule that6629WDTthat allows6630VVZallow the6631DTthe federal6632JJfederal government6633NNgovernment to6634TOto come6635VVcome in6636INin decide6637VVPdecide they6638PPthey did6639VVDdo n't6640RBn't like6641INlike the6642DTthe way6643NNway a6644DTa state6645NNstate prosecuted6646VVDprosecute someone6647NNsomeone or6648CCor the6649DTthe result6650NNresult of6651INof the6652DTthe prosecution6653NNprosecution or6654CCor the6655DTthe sentence6656NNsentence they6657PPthey got6658VVDget and6659CCand re-6660NNSre- prosecute6661VVPprosecute them6662PPthem .6663SENT. It6664PPit 's6665VBZbe precisely6666RBprecisely what6667WPwhat happened6668VVDhappen in6669INin this6670DTthis case6671NNcase .6672SENT. There6673EXthere 's6674VBZbe every6675DTevery reason6676NNreason to6677TOto believe6678VVbelieve it6679PPit happens6680VVZhappen with6681INwith some6682DTsome regularity6683NNregularity .6684SENT. And6685CCand the6686DTthe Court6687NPCourt can6688MDcan put6689VVput an6690DTan end6691NNend to6692TOto it6693PPit .6694SENT. The6695DTthe scholars6696NNSscholar ...6697:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]6698LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well6699UHwell ,6700,, I6701PPI guess6702VVPguess ...6703:... I6704PPI guess6705VVPguess the6706DTthe ...6707:... the6708DTthe question6709NNquestion that6710WDTthat underlies6711VVZunderlie Justice6712NPJustice Breyer6713NPBreyer 's6714POS's question6715NNquestion about6716INabout civil6717JJcivil rights6718NNSright is6719VBZbe something6720NNsomething along6721INalong the6722DTthe lines6723NNSline of6724INof :6725:: You6726PPyou know6727VVPknow ,6728,, that6729WDTthat 's6730VBZbe consistent6731JJconsistent with6732INwith our6733PP$our structure6734NNstructure of6735INof government6736NNgovernment .6737SENT. We6738PPwe have6739VHPhave dual6740JJdual sovereigns6741NNSsovereign .6742SENT. That6743DTthat means6744VVZmean dual6745JJdual regulation6746NNregulation .6747SENT. And6748CCand dual6749JJdual regulation6750NNregulation often6751RBoften means6752VVZmean dual6753JJdual punishment6754NNpunishment .6755SENT. And6756CCand if6757INif we6758PPwe were6759VBDbe to6760TOto adopt6761VVadopt the6762DTthe rule6763NNrule that6764IN/thatthat you6765PPyou suggest6766VVPsuggest ,6767,, it6768PPit might6769MDmight very6770RBvery well6771RBwell be6772VBbe that6773IN/thatthat either6774RBeither the6775DTthe federal6776JJfederal government6777NNgovernment would6778MDwould have6779VHhave to6780TOto subordinate6781VVsubordinate its6782PP$its interests6783NNSinterest to6784TOto the6785DTthe states6786NNSstate or6787CCor that6788IN/thatthat the6789DTthe states6790NNSstate would6791MDwould have6792VHhave to6793TOto subordinate6794VVsubordinate their6795PP$their interests6796NNSinterest to6797TOto the6798DTthe federal6799JJfederal government6800NNgovernment .6801SENT. And6802CCand one6803CDone of6804INof the6805DTthe things6806NNSthing about6807INabout our6808PP$our constitutional6809JJconstitutional structure6810NNstructure makes6811VVZmake ...6812:... which6813WDTwhich makes6814VVZmake it6815PPit unusual6816JJunusual is6817VBZbe that6818DTthat ...6819:... is6820VBZbe that6821IN/thatthat both6822DTboth sovereigns6823NNSsovereign are6824VBPbe understood6825VVNunderstand to6826TOto have6827VHhave significant6828JJsignificant interests6829NNSinterest that6830IN/thatthat they6831PPthey have6832VHPhave the6833DTthe capacity6834NNcapacity to6835TOto pursue6836VVpursue .6837SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]6838LOC[MR. CHAITEN] But6839CCbut where6840WRBwhere they6841PPthey have6842VHPhave the6843DTthe concurrent6844JJconcurrent jurisdiction6845NNjurisdiction over6846INover something6847NNsomething that6848WDTthat is6849VBZbe the6850DTthe same6851JJsame offense6852NNoffense ,6853,, that6854WDTthat is6855VBZbe illegitimate6856JJillegitimate for6857INfor reasons6858NNSreason that6859WDTthat were6860VBDbe understood6861VVNunderstand at6862INat the6863DTthe framing6864NNframing .6865SENT. Take6866VVtake the6867DTthe cases6868NNScase of6869INof ...6870:... take6871VVtake ...6872:... take6873VVtake ...6874:... take6875VVtake Furlong6876NPFurlong .6877SENT. That6878DTthat 's6879VBZbe a6880DTa case6881NNcase where6882WRBwhere multiple6883JJmultiple sovereigns6884NNSsovereign have6885VHPhave concurrent6886JJconcurrent jurisdiction6887NNjurisdiction over6888INover robbery6889NNrobbery at6890INat sea6891NNsea ,6892,, and6893CCand it6894PPit was6895VBDbe well6896RBwell understood6897VVNunderstand that6898IN/thatthat a6899DTa prosecution6900NNprosecution by6901INby one6902CDone would6903MDwould bar6904VVbar a6905DTa prosecution6906NNprosecution by6907INby another6908DTanother .6909SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6910LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Yeah6911NPYeah .6912SENT. Well6913UHwell ,6914,, I6915PPI read6916VVDread Furlong6917NPFurlong a6918DTa little6919JJlittle bit6920NNbit differently6921RBdifferently ,6922,, as6923INas actually6924RBactually separating6925VVGseparate out6926RPout the6927DTthe offense6928NNoffense of6929INof piracy6930NNpiracy ,6931,, which6932WDTwhich was6933VBDbe an6934DTan offense6935NNoffense that6936IN/thatthat sort6937NNsort of6938INof was6939VBDbe in6940INin common6941JJcommon ,6942,, versus6943CCversus the6944DTthe offense6945NNoffense of6946INof murder6947NNmurder ,6948,, which6949WDTwhich Furlong6950NPFurlong says6951VVZsay ,6952,, yes6953UHyes ,6954,, each6955DTeach different6956JJdifferent jurisdiction6957NNjurisdiction can6958MDcan prosecute6959VVprosecute the6960DTthe offense6961NNoffense .6962SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]6963LOC[MR. CHAITEN] The6964DTthe murder6965NNmurder of6966INof a6967DTa British6968JJBritish subject6969NNsubject by6970INby a6971DTa British6972JJBritish subject6973NNsubject on6974INon a6975DTa British6976JJBritish ship6977NNship is6978VBZbe what6979WPwhat they6980PPthey were6981VBDbe saying6982VVGsay .6983SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6984LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I6985PPI guess6986VVPguess I6987PPI want6988VVPwant to6989TOto ask6990VVask ...6991:... [MR. CHAITEN]6992LOC[MR. CHAITEN] They6993PPthey were6994VBDbe n't6995RBn't ...6996:... they6997PPthey were6998VBDbe n't6999RBn't ...7000:... they7001PPthey were7002VBDbe n't7003RBn't drawing7004VVGdraw ...7005:... they7006PPthey were7007VBDbe ...7008:... they7009PPthey were7010VBDbe just7011RBjust applying7012VVGapply the7013DTthe concurrent7014JJconcurrent jurisdiction7015NNjurisdiction rule7016NNrule ,7017,, and7018CCand they7019PPthey were7020VBDbe saying7021VVGsay why7022WRBwhy would7023MDwould the7024DTthe U7025NPU .7026SENT. S7027NPS .7028SENT. have7029VHPhave concurrent7030JJconcurrent jurisdiction7031NNjurisdiction over7032INover that7033DTthat .7034SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7035LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I7036PPI suppose7037VVPsuppose my7038PP$my ...7039:... my7040PP$my main7041JJmain question7042NNquestion ,7043,, which7044WDTwhich actually7045RBactually goes7046VVZgo back7047RBback to7048TOto Justice7049NPJustice Gorsuch7050NPGorsuch 's7051POS's question7052NNquestion ,7053,, because7054INbecause Justice7055NPJustice Gorsuch7056NPGorsuch has7057VHZhave been7058VBNbe trying7059VVGtry to7060TOto lead7061VVlead you7062PPyou away7063RPaway from7064INfrom something7065NNsomething ,7066,, and7067CCand I7068PPI 'm7069VBPbe a7070DTa little7071JJlittle bit7072NNbit also7073RBalso confused7074VVNconfuse as7075RBas ...7076:... as7077INas to7078TOto why7079WRBwhy your7080PP$your argument7081NNargument seems7082VVZseem ,7083,, frankly7084RBfrankly ,7085,, a7086DTa little7087JJlittle bit7088NNbit one7089CDone note7090NNnote .7091SENT. You7092PPyou know7093VVPknow ,7094,, your7095PP$your ...7096:... your7097PP$your brief7098NNbrief and7099CCand now7100RBnow your7101PP$your argument7102NNargument is7103VBZbe just7104RBjust all7105RBall about7106INabout the7107DTthe original7108JJoriginal jurisdiction7109NNjurisdiction .7110SENT. And7111CCand there7112EXthere are7113VBPbe some7114DTsome people7115NNSpeople on7116INon this7117DTthis bench7118NNbench that7119WDTthat think7120VVPthink that7121IN/thatthat that7122DTthat is7123VBZbe the7124DTthe Alpha7125NPAlpha and7126CCand Omega7127NPOmega of7128INof every7129DTevery constitutional7130JJconstitutional question7131NNquestion .7132SENT. But7133CCbut there7134EXthere are7135VBPbe other7136JJother people7137NNSpeople on7138INon this7139DTthis bench7140NNbench who7141WPwho do7142VVPdo not7143RBnot ,7144,, who7145WPwho think7146VVPthink that7147IN/thatthat 1707148CD@card@ years7149NNSyear of7150INof significant7151JJsignificant practice7152NNpractice where7153WRBwhere 307154CD@card@ Justices7155NPSJustices have7156VHPhave signed7157VVNsign on7158RPon to7159TOto a7160DTa rule7161NNrule ,7162,, that7163WDTthat you7164PPyou 're7165VBPbe going7166VVGgo to7167TOto have7168VHhave to7169TOto give7170VVgive me7171PPme more7172JJRmore than7173INthan the7174DTthe fact7175NNfact that7176WDTthat ,7177,, you7178PPyou know7179VVPknow ,7180,, actually7181RBactually ,7182,, pretty7183RBpretty early7184RBearly on7185INon in7186INin the7187DTthe republic7188NNrepublic they7189PPthey decided7190VVDdecide that7191IN/thatthat that7192WDTthat was7193VBDbe not7194RBnot what7195WPwhat the7196DTthe original7197JJoriginal understanding7198NNunderstanding was7199VBDbe ,7200,, even7201RBeven if7202INif they7203PPthey 're7204VBPbe wrong7205JJwrong .7206SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]7207LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well7208UHWell ...7209:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]7210LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And7211CCand so7212RBso this7213DTthis is7214VBZbe your7215PP$your opportunity7216NNopportunity to7217TOto give7218VVgive me7219PPme more7220JJRmore .7221SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]7222LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Okay7223NPOkay .7224SENT. 19227225CD@card@ ,7226,, I7227PPI would7228MDwould say7229VVsay .7230SENT. But7231CCbut my7232PP$my opportunity7233NNopportunity in7234INin response7235NNresponse to7236TOto your7237PP$your ...7238:... your7239PP$your offering7240VVGoffer me7241PPme an7242DTan opportunity7243NNopportunity to7244TOto give7245VVgive you7246PPyou more7247JJRmore ,7248,, I7249PPI will7250MDwill tell7251VVtell you7252PPyou incorporation7253NNincorporation .7254SENT. Incorporation7255NNincorporation ,7256,, incorporation7257NNincorporation ,7258,, incorporation7259NNincorporation .7260SENT. The7261DTthe Court7262NPCourt has7263VHZhave said7264VVNsay its7265PP$its own7266JJown precedents7267NNSprecedent are7268VBPbe that7269DTthat incorporation7270NNincorporation makes7271VVZmake a7272DTa big7273JJbig difference7274NNdifference for7275INfor purposes7276NNSpurpose of7277INof stare7278NNstare decisis7279NNdecisis .7280SENT. So7281RBso look7282VVlook at7283INat Elkins7284NPElkins and7285CCand look7286VVlook at7287INat ...7288:... look7289VVlook at7290INat Murphy7291NPMurphy v7292NNv .7293SENT. Waterfront7294NNwaterfront Commission7295NPCommission .7296SENT. After7297INafter incorporation7298NNincorporation ,7299,, the7300DTthe federal7301JJfederal government7302NNgovernment and7303CCand the7304DTthe state7305NNstate government7306NNgovernment should7307MDshould n't7308RBn't be7309VBbe able7310JJable to7311TOto combine7312VVcombine to7313TOto do7314VVdo that7315IN/thatthat which7316WDTwhich they7317PPthey can7318MDcan 't7319RB't do7320VVPdo alone7321RBalone .7322SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]7323LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Part7324NNpart of7325INof ...7326:... part7327NNpart of7328INof the7329DTthe original7330JJoriginal understanding7331NNunderstanding as7332INas well7333RBwell was7334VBDbe stare7335NNstare decisis7336NNdecisis ,7337,, and7338CCand stare7339NNstare decisis7340NNdecisis is7341VBZbe a7342DTa principle7343NNprinciple ,7344,, in7345INin my7346PP$my view7347NNview ,7348,, rooted7349VVNroot in7350INin Article7351NPArticle III7352NPIII ,7353,, as7354INas Federalist7355JJFederalist points7356NNSpoint out7357INout and7358CCand as7359INas Justice7360NPJustice Kagan7361NPKagan points7362VVZpoint out7363RPout .7364SENT. It7365PPit 's7366VBZbe a7367DTa doctrine7368NNdoctrine of7369INof stability7370NNstability and7371CCand humility7372NNhumility that7373IN/thatthat we7374PPwe take7375VVPtake very7376RBvery seriously7377RBseriously .7378SENT. And7379CCand the7380DTthe reason7381NNreason ...7382:... with7383INwith the7384DTthe bar7385NNbar that7386IN/thatthat you7387PPyou have7388VHPhave to7389TOto clear7390VVclear ,7391,, I7392PPI believe7393VVPbelieve ,7394,, is7395VBZbe not7396RBnot just7397RBjust to7398TOto show7399VVshow that7400IN/thatthat it7401PPit 's7402VBZbe wrong7403JJwrong but7404CCbut to7405TOto show7406VVshow that7407IN/thatthat it7408PPit 's7409VBZbe grievously7410RBgrievously wrong7411JJwrong ,7412,, egregiously7413RBegregiously wrong7414JJwrong ,7415,, something7416NNsomething meeting7417NNmeeting a7418DTa very7419RBvery high7420JJhigh bar7421NNbar because7422INbecause stare7423NNstare decisis7424NNdecisis is7425VBZbe itself7426PPitself a7427DTa constitutional7428JJconstitutional principle7429NNprinciple .7430SENT. And7431CCand given7432VVNgive ,7433,, as7434INas Justice7435NPJustice Alito7436NPAlito says7437VVZsay ,7438,, the7439DTthe uncertainty7440NNuncertainty about7441INabout the7442DTthe history7443NNhistory ,7444,, can7445MDcan you7446PPyou clear7447VVclear that7448DTthat bar7449NNbar ?7450SENT? So7451RBso two7452CDtwo questions7453NNSquestion .7454SENT. Is7455VBZbe that7456IN/thatthat the7457DTthe right7458JJright way7459NNway to7460TOto look7461VVlook at7462INat it7463PPit ,7464,, grievously7465RBgrievously wrong7466JJwrong ,7467,, and7468CCand ...7469:... and7470CCand ,7471,, two7472CDtwo ,7473,, how7474WRBhow can7475MDcan you7476PPyou clear7477VVclear that7478IN/thatthat given7479VVNgive some7480DTsome of7481INof the7482DTthe uncertain7483JJuncertain ?7484SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]7485LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Yeah7486NPYeah ,7487,, so7488INso I7489PPI ...7490:... I7491PPI 'm7492VBPbe not7493RBnot sure7494JJsure grievously7495RBgrievously wrong7496JJwrong is7497VBZbe the7498DTthe right7499JJright way7500NNway to7501TOto look7502VVlook at7503INat it7504PPit when7505WRBwhen you7506PPyou 're7507VBPbe talking7508VVGtalk about7509INabout an7510DTan unconstitutional7511JJunconstitutional law7512NNlaw enforcement7513NNenforcement practice7514NNpractice because7515INbecause this7516DTthis Court7517NPCourt has7518VHZhave never7519RBnever upheld7520VVNuphold an7521DTan unconstitutional7522JJunconstitutional ...7523:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]7524LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But7525CCbut that7526WDTthat 's7527VBZbe begging7528VVGbeg ...7529:... that7530WDTthat 's7531VBZbe begging7532VVGbeg the7533DTthe question7534NNquestion .7535SENT. The7536DTthe whole7537JJwhole point7538NNpoint is7539VBZbe that7540IN/thatthat there7541EXthere are7542VBPbe prior7543JJprior decisions7544NNSdecision going7545VVGgo back7546RBback ,7547,, as7548INas Justice7549NPJustice Kagan7550NPKagan says7551VVZsay ,7552,, many7553JJmany years7554NNSyear ,7555,, reaffirming7556VVGreaffirm this7557DTthis doctrine7558NNdoctrine .7559SENT. And7560CCand the7561DTthe question7562NNquestion is7563VBZbe ,7564,, when7565WRBwhen are7566VBPbe we7567PPwe going7568VVGgo to7569TOto upset7570VVupset that7571DTthat stability7572NNstability ,7573,, when7574WRBwhen are7575VBPbe we7576PPwe going7577VVGgo to7578TOto depart7579VVdepart from7580INfrom the7581DTthe humility7582NNhumility of7583INof respecting7584VVGrespect precedent7585NNprecedent and7586CCand overrule7587VVoverrule it7588PPit ?7589SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]7590LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So7591RBso ...7592:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]7593LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] And7594CCand usually7595RBusually it7596PPit has7597VHZhave to7598TOto be7599VBbe ...7600:... your7601PP$your ...7602:... your7603PP$your brief7604NNbrief uses7605VVZuse egregiously7606RBegregiously wrong7607JJwrong .7608SENT. I7609PPI ...7610:... I7611PPI use7612VVPuse the7613DTthe term7614NNterm grievously7615RBgrievously wrong7616JJwrong .7617SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]7618LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well7619UHWell ,7620,, I7621PPI ...7622:... and7623CCand I7624PPI agree7625VVPagree this7626DTthis ...7627:... this7628DTthis rule7629NNrule is7630VBZbe egregiously7631RBegregiously wrong7632JJwrong .7633SENT. If7634INif it7635PPit 's7636VBZbe a7637DTa rule7638NNrule that7639WDTthat ...7640:... there7641EXthere was7642VBDbe no7643DTno practice7644NNpractice for7645INfor all7646DTall of7647INof English7648JJEnglish history7649NNhistory ,7650,, no7651DTno practice7652NNpractice for7653INfor the7654DTthe first7655JJfirst century7656NNcentury of7657INof this7658DTthis republic7659NNrepublic .7660SENT. That7661IN/thatthat alone7662RBalone ,7663,, I7664PPI think7665VVPthink ,7666,, speaks7667VVZspeak volumes7668NNSvolume .7669SENT. And7670CCand the7671DTthe ...7672:... I7673PPI think7674VVPthink ,7675,, going7676VVGgo back7677RBback to7678TOto incorporation7679NNincorporation ,7680,, I7681PPI think7682VVPthink ,7683,, in7684INin addition7685NNaddition to7686TOto just7687RBjust how7688WRBhow wrong7689JJwrong the7690DTthe rule7691NNrule is7692VBZbe ,7693,, as7694RBas explained7695VVNexplain by7696INby many7697JJmany jurists7698NNSjurist and7699CCand many7700JJmany scholars7701NNSscholar over7702INover many7703JJmany decades7704NNSdecade ,7705,, I7706PPI think7707VVPthink incorporation7708NNincorporation ...7709:... the7710DTthe ...7711:... the7712DTthe Court7713NPCourt has7714VHZhave never7715RBnever had7716VHNhave a7717DTa full7718JJfull and7719CCand fair7720JJfair opportunity7721NNopportunity post-incorporation7722NNpost-incorporation to7723TOto revisit7724VVrevisit this7725DTthis rule7726NNrule .7727SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7728LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And7729CCand I7730PPI guess7731VVPguess ,7732,, counsel7733NNcounsel ...7734:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]7735LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] How7736NPHow ...7737:... how7738WRBhow does7739VVZdo it7740PPit work7741VVwork as7742INas a7743DTa practical7744JJpractical matter7745NNmatter ?7746SENT? Is7747VBZbe this7748DTthis ...7749:... is7750VBZbe it7751PPit a7752DTa race7753NNrace to7754TOto the7755DTthe courthouse7756NNcourthouse ?7757SENT? I7758PPI mean7759VVPmean ,7760,, if7761INif a7762DTa prosecution7763NNprosecution bars7764VVZbar a7765DTa subsequent7766JJsubsequent one7767CDone ,7768,, the7769DTthe state7770NNstate and7771CCand federal7772JJfederal government7773NNgovernment may7774MDmay have7775VHhave different7776JJdifferent perspectives7777NNSperspective ,7778,, is7779VBZbe it7780PPit whoever7781WPwhoever can7782MDcan empanel7783VVempanel a7784DTa jury7785NNjury first7786RBfirst is7787VBZbe going7788VVGgo to7789TOto block7790VVblock the7791DTthe others7792NNSother ?7793SENT? [MR. CHAITEN]7794LOC[MR. CHAITEN] So7795INso I7796PPI do7797VVPdo n't7798RBn't think7799VVthink so7800RBso .7801SENT. So7802RBso ,7803,, first7804JJfirst of7805INof all7806DTall ,7807,, the7808DTthe ...7809:... the7810DTthe norm7811NNnorm in7812INin the7813DTthe country7814NNcountry is7815VBZbe cooperation7816NNcooperation between7817INbetween federal7818JJfederal and7819CCand state7820NNstate authorities7821NNSauthority .7822SENT. There7823EXthere are7824VBPbe just7825RBjust ...7826:... speaking7827VVGspeak of7828INof one7829CDone agency7830NNagency in7831INin one7832CDone area7833NNarea of7834INof law7835NNlaw ,7836,, the7837DTthe DEA7838NPDEA ...7839:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]7840LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well7841UHWell ,7842,, it7843PPit sure7844RBsure was7845VBDbe n't7846RBn't at7847INat the7848DTthe ...7849:... entirely7850RBentirely true7851JJtrue at7852INat the7853DTthe time7854NNtime of7855INof the7856DTthe civil7857JJcivil rights7858NNSright actions7859NNSaction in7860INin the7861DTthe ...7862:... in7863INin the7864NPthe '7865POS' 60s7866JJ60s and7867NPand '7868POS' 70s7869NNS70s .7870SENT. It7871PPit was7872VBDbe n't7873RBn't true7874JJtrue at7875INat the7876DTthe time7877NNtime of7878INof the7879DTthe fugitive7880JJfugitive slave7881NNslave law7882NNlaw .7883SENT. [MR. CHAITEN]7884LOC[MR. CHAITEN] Well7885UHWell ,7886,, as7887INas a7888DTa practical7889JJpractical matter7890NNmatter ,7891,, I7892PPI think7893VVPthink it7894PPit is7895VBZbe true7896JJtrue today7897NNtoday .7898SENT. Secondly7899RBsecondly ,7900,, Blockburger7901NPBlockburger has7902VHZhave been7903VBNbe subject7904JJsubject to7905TOto enormous7906JJenormous criticism7907NNcriticism because7908INbecause it7909PPit is7910VBZbe n't7911RBn't defended7912VVNdefend ,7913,, frankly7914RBfrankly ,7915,, enough7916RBenough .7917SENT. When7918WRBwhen you7919PPyou apply7920VVPapply Blockburger7921NPBlockburger ,7922,, oftentimes7923NNSoftentime ,7924,, these7925DTthese are7926VBPbe n't7927RBn't going7928VVGgo to7929TOto be7930VBbe the7931DTthe same7932JJsame offenses7933NNSoffense .7934SENT. And7935CCand this7936DTthis is7937VBZbe a7938DTa critical7939JJcritical ,7940,, critical7941JJcritical point7942NNpoint .7943SENT. We7944PPwe have7945VHPhave had7946VHDhave an7947DTan experiment7948NNexperiment in7949INin this7950DTthis rule7951NNrule .7952SENT. The7953DTthe experiment7954NNexperiment is7955VBZbe that7956IN/thatthat between7957INbetween 207958CD@card@ and7959CCand 377960CD@card@ states7961NNSstate already7962RBalready bar7963VVbar successive7964JJsuccessive prosecutions7965NNSprosecution after7966INafter a7967DTa federal7968JJfederal prosecution7969NNprosecution or7970CCor by7971INby another7972DTanother state7973NNstate as7974INas a7975DTa matter7976NNmatter of7977INof state7978NNstate law7979NNlaw .7980SENT. And7981CCand where7982WRBwhere is7983VBZbe the7984DTthe race7985NNrace to7986TOto the7987DTthe courthouse7988NNcourthouse concerned7989VVNconcern in7990INin those7991DTthose states7992NNSstate ?7993SENT? Where7994WRBwhere are7995VBPbe the7996DTthe law7997NNlaw enforcement7998NNenforcement problems7999NNSproblem in8000INin those8001DTthose states8002NNSstate ?8003SENT? They8004PPthey do8005VVPdo n't8006RBn't exist8007VVexist .8008SENT. And8009CCand I8010PPI do8011VVPdo n't8012RBn't think8013VVthink Texas8014NPTexas and8015CCand the8016DTthe government8017NNgovernment have8018VHPhave ever8019RBever really8020RBreally ...8021:... ever8022RBever even8023RBeven really8024RBreally responded8025VVDrespond to8026TOto that8027DTthat point8028NNpoint .8029SENT. If8030INif I8031PPI may8032MDmay ,8033,, Mr8034NPMr .8035SENT. Chief8036NPChief Justice8037NPJustice ,8038,, I8039PPI 'd8040MDwould like8041VVlike to8042TOto reserve8043VVreserve the8044DTthe remainder8045NNremainder of8046INof my8047PP$my time8048NNtime .8049SENT. Thank8050VVthank you8051PPyou .8052SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]8053LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank8054VVthank you8055PPyou ,8056,, counsel8057NNcounsel .8058SENT. Mr8059NPMr .8060SENT. Feigin8061NPFeigin ?8062SENT?