[MR. ALI]20LOC[MR. ALI] Thank21VVthank you22PPyou ,23,, Mr24NPMr .25SENT. Chief26NPChief Justice27NPJustice ,28,, and29CCand may30MDmay it31PPit please32VVplease the33DTthe Court34NPCourt :35:: In36INin Flores-Ortega37NPFlores-Ortega ,38,, a39DTa unanimous40JJunanimous Court41NPCourt held42VVDhold that43IN/thatthat where44WRBwhere ...45:... excuse46VVexcuse me47PPme ...48:... a49DTa unanimous50JJunanimous Court51NNcourt held52VVNhold where53WRBwhere ...54:... that55IN/thatthat where56WRBwhere a57DTa defendant58NNdefendant pleads59VVZplead guilty60JJguilty and61CCand instructs62VVZinstruct his63PP$his trial64NNtrial counsel65NNcounsel to66TOto notice67VVnotice an68DTan appeal69NNappeal ,70,, disregarding71VVGdisregard that72IN/thatthat instruction73NNinstruction renders74VVZrender ineffective75JJineffective assistance76NNassistance in77INin which78WDTwhich prejudice79NNprejudice is80VBZbe presumed81VVNpresume .82SENT. The83DTthe Court84NPCourt reached85VVDreach that86DTthat conclusion87NNconclusion even88RBeven though89INthough pleading90VVGplead guilty91JJguilty waives92VVZwaive the93DTthe vast94JJvast majority95NNmajority of96INof claims97NNSclaim that98WDTthat could99MDcould be100VBbe raised101VVNraise on102INon appeal103NNappeal and104CCand even105RBeven though106INthough most107JJSmost defendants108NNSdefendant who109WPwho plead110VVPplead guilty111RBguilty do112VVdo not113RBnot ultimately114RBultimately succeed115VVsucceed in116INin their117PP$their direct118JJdirect appeal119NNappeal .120SENT. The121DTthe Court122NPCourt correctly123RBcorrectly concluded124VVDconclude that125IN/thatthat prejudice126NNprejudice is127VBZbe presumed128VVNpresume ,129,, both130CCboth because131INbecause a132DTa defendant133NNdefendant 's134POS's disregard135NNdisregard for136INfor the137DTthe instruction138NNinstruction to139TOto notice140VVnotice of141INof an142DTan appeal143NNappeal forfeits144VVZforfeit the145DTthe entire146JJentire direct147JJdirect appeal148NNappeal and149CCand because150INbecause the151DTthe attorney152NNattorney then153RBthen usurps154VVZusurp a155DTa fundamental156JJfundamental decision157NNdecision that158WDTthat rests159VVZrest with160INwith the161DTthe client162NNclient alone163RBalone .164SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]165LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Mr166NPMr .167SENT. Ali168NPAli ,169,, when170WRBwhen you171PPyou just172RBjust described173VVDdescribe the174DTthe relief175NNrelief that176IN/thatthat you177PPyou seek178VVPseek ,179,, am180VBPbe I181PPI right182JJright that183IN/thatthat you184PPyou ...185:... what186WPwhat you187PPyou 're188VBPbe seeking189VVGseek is190VBZbe reinstatement191NNreinstatement of192INof the193DTthe right194NNright to195TOto appeal196VVappeal ?197SENT? [MR. ALI]198LOC[MR. ALI] That199DTthat 's200VBZbe correct201JJcorrect ,202,, Your203PP$your Honor204NPHonor .205SENT. I206PPI think207VVPthink it208PPit ...209:... I210PPI think211VVPthink that212DTthat 's213VBZbe a214DTa really215RBreally critical216JJcritical point217NNpoint because218INbecause it219PPit shows220VVZshow that221IN/thatthat what222WPwhat Mr223NPMr .224SENT. Garza225NPGarza is226VBZbe requesting227VVGrequest here228RBhere ,229,, what230WPwhat Petitioner231NNpetitioner is232VBZbe requesting233VVGrequest ,234,, is235VBZbe simply236RBsimply to237TOto restore238VVrestore the239DTthe bargain240NNbargain that241IN/thatthat the242DTthe parties243NNSparty struck244VVNstrike before245INbefore his246PP$his trial247NNtrial counsel248NNcounsel usurped249VVDusurp his250PP$his fundamental251JJfundamental decision252NNdecision to253TOto appeal254VVappeal .255SENT. So256RBso all257RBall he258PPhe is259VBZbe seeking260VVGseek ...261:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]262LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But263CCbut what264WPwhat ...265:... but266CCbut what267WPwhat happens268VVZhappen ...269:... what270WPwhat happens271VVZhappen to272TOto the273DTthe plea274NNplea ...275:... plea276NNplea bargain277NNbargain ?278SENT? The279DTthe plea280NNplea bargain281NNbargain was282VBDbe conditioned283VVNcondition on284INon waiving285VVGwaive the286DTthe right287NNright to288TOto appeal289VVappeal .290SENT. So291RBso I292PPI could293MDcould see294VVsee one295CDone argument296NNargument that297WDTthat says298VVZsay all299RBall we300PPwe 're301VBPbe seeking302VVGseek is303VBZbe right304JJright to305TOto appeal306VVappeal ,307,, we308PPwe recognize309VVPrecognize that310IN/thatthat the311DTthe plea312NNplea bargain313NNbargain goes314VVZgo by315INby the316DTthe boards317NNSboard because318INbecause it319PPit was320VBDbe conditioned321VVNcondition on322INon no323DTno appeal324NNappeal .325SENT. [MR. ALI]326LOC[MR. ALI] So327RBso ,328,, no329UHno ,330,, that331WDTthat is332VBZbe not333RBnot Mr334NPMr .335SENT. Garza336NPGarza 's337POS's argument338NNargument .339SENT. The340DTthe argument341NNargument would342MDwould be343VBbe that344IN/thatthat the345DTthe appeal346NNappeal will347MDwill be348VBbe reinstatement349NNreinstatement .350SENT. All351PDTAll the352DTthe parties353NNSparty before354INbefore the355DTthe Court356NPCourt agree357VVPagree that358IN/thatthat ,359,, even360RBeven though361INthough Mr362NPMr .363SENT. Garza364NPGarza signed365VVDsign an366DTan appeal367NNappeal waiver368NNwaiver ,369,, that370DTthat certain371JJcertain fundamental372JJfundamental claims373NNSclaim survive374VVPsurvive that375IN/thatthat appeal376NNappeal waiver377NNwaiver .378SENT. So379RBso ,380,, when381WRBwhen the382DTthe appeal383NNappeal is384VBZbe reinstated385VVNreinstate ,386,, the387DTthe plea388NNplea agreement389NNagreement will390MDwill remain391VVremain intact392JJintact .393SENT. The394DTthe appeal395NNappeal waiver396NNwaiver will397MDwill remain398VVremain intact399JJintact .400SENT. To401TOTo succeed402VVsucceed on403INon an404DTan issue405NNissue that406WDTthat is407VBZbe waived408VVNwaive ,409,, Mr410NPMr .411SENT. Garza412NPGarza would413MDwould have414VHhave to415TOto ,416,, and417CCand we418PPwe think419VVPthink he420PPhe actually421RBactually has422VHZhave ,423,, a424DTa colorable425JJcolorable claim426NNclaim in427INin this428DTthis record429NNrecord that430IN/thatthat his431PP$his appeal432NNappeal waiver433NNwaiver was434VBDbe involuntary435JJinvoluntary .436SENT. And437CCand so438RBso all439RBall he440PPhe is441VBZbe seeking442VVGseek to443TOto do444VVdo ...445:... maybe446RBmaybe this447DTthis is448VBZbe the449DTthe better450JJRgood way451NNway to452TOto describe453VVdescribe this454DTthis .455SENT. Consider456VVconsider two457CDtwo similarly458RBsimilarly situated459VVNsituate defendants460NNSdefendant ,461,, okay462JJokay ?463SENT? Both464DTboth sign465NNsign a466DTa plea467NNplea agreement468NNagreement .469SENT. Both470CCboth plea471NNplea agreements472NNSagreement contain473VVPcontain an474DTan appeal475NNappeal waiver476NNwaiver .477SENT. Both478DTboth defendants479NNSdefendant instruct480VVPinstruct their481PP$their counsel482NNcounsel to483TOto go484VVgo ahead485RBahead and486CCand perfect487JJperfect ...488:... to489TOto notice490VVnotice an491DTan appeal492NNappeal .493SENT. In494INin the495DTthe first496JJfirst defendant497NNdefendant 's498POS's situation499NNsituation ,500,, counsel501NNcounsel follows502VVZfollow that503DTthat client504NNclient 's505POS's autonomous506JJautonomous choice507NNchoice .508SENT. He509PPhe files510VVZfile a511DTa notice512NNnotice of513INof appeal514NNappeal .515SENT. All516DTall parties517NNSparty before518INbefore the519DTthe court520NNcourt agree521VVPagree that522IN/thatthat an523DTan appeal524NNappeal would525MDwould be526VBbe perfected527VVNperfect ,528,, he529PPhe will530MDwill be531VBbe appointed532VVNappoint counsel533NNcounsel ,534,, he535PPhe will536MDwill get537VVget access538NNaccess to539TOto the540DTthe record541NNrecord ,542,, which543WDTwhich would544MDwould be545VBbe required546VVNrequire to547TOto identify548VVidentify issues549NNSissue for550INfor appeal551NNappeal and552CCand make553VVmake sure554JJsure that555IN/thatthat the556DTthe plea557NNplea proceedings558NNSproceeding proceeded559VVDproceed in560INin a561DTa way562NNway that563WDTthat is564VBZbe lawful565JJlawful and566CCand ...567:... and568CCand ...569:... and570CCand legal571JJlegal and572CCand that573IN/thatthat the574DTthe plea575NNplea is576VBZbe valid577JJvalid ,578,, and579CCand then580RBthen there581EXthere will582MDwill be583VBbe judicial584JJjudicial review585NNreview ,586,, either587CCeither of588INof the589DTthe merits590NNSmerit of591INof the592DTthe claims593NNSclaim raised594VVDraise ,595,, or596CCor if597INif counsel's598NNScounsel's ...599:... appellate600JJappellate counsel601NNcounsel believes602VVZbelieve that603IN/thatthat there604EXthere is605VBZbe no606DTno meritorious607JJmeritorious issues608NNSissue ,609,, the610DTthe process611NNprocess in612INin Anders613NPAnders will614MDwill be615VBbe followed616VVNfollow and617CCand there618EXthere will619MDwill still620RBstill be621VBbe judicial622JJjudicial review623NNreview .624SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]625LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well626UHwell ,627,, I628PPI thought629VVDthink that630DTthat ...631:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]632LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But633CCbut he634PPhe ...635:... he636PPhe gets637VVZget keep638VVkeep the639DTthe ...640:... I641PPI mean642VVPmean ,643,, this644RBthis ...645:... this646DTthis was647VBDbe a648DTa plea649NNplea agreement650NNagreement that651WDTthat gave652VVDgive him653PPhim fewer654JJRfew years655NNSyear than656INthan he657PPhe could658MDcould have659VHhave been660VBNbe subjected661VVNsubject to662TOto under663INunder the664DTthe law665NNlaw .666SENT. And667CCand so668RBso you669PPyou 're670VBPbe ...671:... you672PPyou 're673VBPbe ...674:... you675PPyou say676VVPsay ...677:... there678EXthere was679VBDbe one680CDone judge681NNjudge who682WPwho said683VVDsay he684PPhe wants685VVZwant his686PP$his cake687NNcake and688CCand eat689VVeat it690PPit too691RBtoo .692SENT. That693DTthat is694VBZbe ,695,, he696PPhe keeps697VVZkeep what698WPwhat 's699VBZbe good700JJgood about701INabout the702DTthe plea703NNplea bargain704NNbargain and705CCand discards706VVZdiscard what707WPwhat 's708VBZbe not709RBnot good710JJgood ;711:; that712WDTthat is713VBZbe ,714,, no715DTno right716NNright to717TOto appeal718VVappeal .719SENT. [MR. ALI]720LOC[MR. ALI] Well721UHwell ...722:... so723RBso ,724,, Your725PP$your Honor726NPHonor ,727,, I728PPI think729VVPthink a730DTa couple731NNcouple points732NNSpoint in733INin response734NNresponse .735SENT. It's736NNSIt's ...737:... it738PPit 's739VBZbe important740JJimportant to741TOto recognize742VVrecognize that743IN/thatthat simply744RBsimply noticing745VVGnotice an746DTan appeal747NNappeal or748CCor ,749,, in750INin this751DTthis case752NNcase ,753,, reinstating754VVGreinstate an755DTan appeal756NNappeal ,757,, it758PPit 's759VBZbe hard760JJhard to761TOto see762VVsee how763WRBhow that764DTthat alone765RBalone breaches766VVZbreach the767DTthe plea768NNplea agreement769NNagreement .770SENT. And771CCand so772RBso the773DTthe way774NNway this775DTthis happens776VVZhappen in777INin practice778NNpractice is779VBZbe that780IN/thatthat when781WRBwhen an782DTan ...783:... an784DTan appeal785NNappeal waiver786NNwaiver is787VBZbe signed788VVNsign ,789,, the790DTthe government791NNgovernment gains792VVZgain what793WPwhat is794VBZbe effectively795RBeffectively an796DTan affirmative797JJaffirmative defense798NNdefense that799IN/thatthat it800PPit can801MDcan raise802VVraise on803INon appeal804NNappeal .805SENT. It806PPit can807MDcan choose808VVchoose to809TOto raise810VVraise it811PPit .812SENT. It813PPit 's814VBZbe not815RBnot jurisdictional816JJjurisdictional .817SENT. It818PPit 's819VBZbe not820RBnot self-executing821JJself-executing .822SENT. The823DTthe government824NNgovernment chooses825VVZchoose to826TOto raise827VVraise it828PPit and829CCand satisfies830VVZsatisfy the831DTthe court832NNcourt of833INof appeals834NNSappeal that835IN/thatthat the836DTthe issue837NNissue that838IN/thatthat appellate839JJappellate counsel840NNcounsel has841VHZhave actually842RBactually raised843VVNraise on844INon appeal845NNappeal is846VBZbe ,847,, in848INin fact849NNfact ,850,, within851INwithin the852DTthe appeal853NNappeal waiver854NNwaiver ,855,, then856RBthen the857DTthe government858NNgovernment will859MDwill succeed860VVsucceed and861CCand there862EXthere will863MDwill be864VBbe consequences865NNSconsequence ,866,, potentially867RBpotentially ,868,, depending869VVGdepend on870INon what871WPwhat the872DTthe ...873:... the874DTthe plea875NNplea agreement876NNagreement says877VVZsay the878DTthe consequences879NNSconsequence should880MDshould be881VBbe .882SENT. All883DTall of884INof that885WDTthat is886VBZbe what887WPwhat we888PPwe 're889VBPbe saying890VVGsay this891DTthis direct892JJdirect appeal893NNappeal is894VBZbe required895VVNrequire to896TOto do897VVdo .898SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]899LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah900NPYeah ,901,, and902CCand if903INif it904PPit 's905VBZbe determined906VVNdetermine ...907:... I908PPI ...909:... I910PPI think911VVPthink this912DTthis ...913:... I914PPI thought915VVDthink this916DTthis was917VBDbe the918DTthe thrust919NNthrust of920INof Justice921NPJustice Ginsburg922NPGinsburg 's923POS's question924NNquestion .925SENT. If926INif it927PPit is928VBZbe ultimately929RBultimately determined930VVNdetermine that931IN/thatthat the932DTthe appeal933NNappeal was934VBDbe in935INin violation936NNviolation of937INof the938DTthe appeal939NNappeal waiver940NNwaiver ,941,, then942RBthen the943DTthe plea944NNplea bargain945NNbargain has946VHZhave been947VBNbe broken948VVNbreak by949INby the950DTthe defendant951NNdefendant .952SENT. [MR. ALI]953LOC[MR. ALI] That's954NPThat's ...955:... that956WDTthat 's957VBZbe correct958JJcorrect ,959,, Your960PP$your Honor961NPHonor ,962,, yes963UHyes .964SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]965LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And966CCand ...967:... and968CCand it969PPit may970MDmay be971VBbe void972JJvoid .973SENT. [MR. ALI]974LOC[MR. ALI] That975DTthat 's976VBZbe right977JJright .978SENT. And979CCand ...980:... and981CCand ...982:... and983CCand ...984:... and985CCand let986VVlet me987PPme just988RBjust make989VVPmake a990DTa ...991:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]992LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And993CCand what994WPwhat ...995:... what996WPwhat ...997:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]998LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Whose999WP$whose choice1000NNchoice is1001VBZbe that1002RBthat ?1003SENT? I1004PPI 'm1005VBPbe sorry1006JJsorry .1007SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]1008LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...1009:... what1010WPwhat breaches1011VVZbreach the1012DTthe appeal1013NNappeal waiver1014NNwaiver ?1015SENT? In1016INin other1017JJother words1018NNSword ,1019,, you1020PPyou said1021VVDsay it1022PPit 's1023VBZbe not1024RBnot the1025DTthe notice1026NNnotice .1027SENT. What1028WPWhat is1029VBZbe it1030PPit ?1031SENT? [MR. ALI]1032LOC[MR. ALI] It1033PPit is1034VBZbe raising1035VVGraise an1036DTan issue1037NNissue that1038WDTthat is1039VBZbe ,1040,, in1041INin fact1042NNfact ,1043,, within1044INwithin the1045DTthe scope1046NNscope of1047INof the1048DTthe appeal1049NNappeal waiver1050NNwaiver .1051SENT. So1052RBso everyone1053NNeveryone agrees1054VVZagree ...1055:... I1056PPI believe1057VVPbelieve that1058IN/thatthat it1059PPit was1060VBDbe never1061RBnever disputed1062VVNdispute ...1063:... that1064IN/thatthat there1065EXthere are1066VBPbe certain1067JJcertain claims1068NNSclaim that1069WDTthat survive1070VVPsurvive ,1071,, those1072DTthose going1073VVGgo to1074TOto the1075DTthe validity1076NNvalidity of1077INof the1078DTthe plea1079NNplea and1080CCand enforceability1081NNenforceability of1082INof the1083DTthe plea1084NNplea .1085SENT. There1086EXthere are1087VBPbe certain1088JJcertain constitutional1089JJconstitutional limitations1090NNSlimitation on1091INon the1092DTthe circumstances1093NNScircumstance in1094INin which1095WDTwhich the1096DTthe plea1097NNplea will1098MDwill or1099CCor will1100MDwill not1101RBnot be1102VBbe enforced1103VVNenforce by1104INby a1105DTa court1106NNcourt of1107INof appeals1108NNSappeal :1109:: for1110INfor instance1111NNinstance ,1112,, if1113INif the1114DTthe defendant1115NNdefendant is1116VBZbe challenging1117VVGchallenge the1118DTthe ...1119:... that1120IN/thatthat the1121DTthe sentence1122NNsentence was1123VBDbe imposed1124VVNimpose on1125INon certain1126JJcertain unconstitutional1127JJunconstitutional considerations1128NNSconsideration .1129SENT. And1130CCand then1131RBthen ,1132,, of1133INof course1134NNcourse ,1135,, there1136EXthere are1137VBPbe the1138DTthe issues1139NNSissue that1140WDTthat are1141VBPbe outside1142INoutside the1143DTthe scope1144NNscope of1145INof the1146DTthe appeal1147NNappeal waiver1148NNwaiver ,1149,, which1150WDTwhich can1151MDcan be1152VBbe certainly1153RBcertainly raised1154VVNraise by1155INby the1156DTthe defendant1157NNdefendant without1158INwithout any1159DTany sort1160NNsort of1161INof consequence1162NNconsequence .1163SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1164LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] What1165WPWhat if1166INif the1167DTthe ...1168:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1169LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Are1170VBPbe there1171RBthere any1172DTany states1173NNSstate ...1174:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1175LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...1176:... what1177WPwhat if1178INif the1179DTthe issue1180NNissue that1181IN/thatthat the1182DTthe defendant1183NNdefendant wants1184VVZwant to1185TOto raise1186VVraise is1187VBZbe clearly1188RBclearly within1189INwithin the1190DTthe scope1191NNscope of1192INof the1193DTthe appeal1194NNappeal waiver1195NNwaiver ?1196SENT? You1197PPyou know1198VVPknow ,1199,, he1200PPhe comes1201VVZcome to1202TOto a1203DTa lawyer1204NNlawyer and1205CCand says1206VVZsay ,1207,, I1208PPI want1209VVPwant to1210TOto appeal1211VVappeal because1212INbecause I1213PPI 'm1214VBPbe not1215RBnot guilty1216JJguilty .1217SENT. [MR. ALI]1218LOC[MR. ALI] So1219RBso ...1220:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1221LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] In1222INin other1223JJother words1224NNSword ,1225,, I1226PPI ...1227:... I1228PPI think1229VVPthink ,1230,, you1231PPyou know1232VVPknow ,1233,, it1234PPit was1235VBDbe voluntary1236JJvoluntary and1237CCand all1238RBall that1239IN/thatthat ,1240,, and1241CCand the1242DTthe ...1243:... it1244PPit 's1245VBZbe not1246RBnot beyond1247INbeyond the1248DTthe constitutional1249JJconstitutional limits1250NNSlimit .1251SENT. I1252PPI just1253RBjust am1254VBPbe not1255RBnot guilty1256JJguilty .1257SENT. So1258INso I1259PPI ...1260:... I1261PPI want1262VVPwant to1263TOto appeal1264VVappeal .1265SENT. [MR. ALI]1266LOC[MR. ALI] So1267RBso ,1268,, Your1269PP$your Honor1270NPHonor ,1271,, a1272DTa few1273JJfew responses1274NNSresponse .1275SENT. I1276PPI think1277VVPthink the1278DTthe ...1279:... the1280DTthe first1281JJfirst response1282NNresponse I1283PPI have1284VHPhave is1285VBZbe ,1286,, clear1287JJclear in1288INin whose1289WP$whose view1290NNview ?1291SENT? This1292DTthis Court1293NPCourt has1294VHZhave always1295RBalways recognized1296VVNrecognize that1297IN/thatthat there1298EXthere 's1299VBZbe a1300DTa role1301NNrole for1302INfor the1303DTthe court1304NNcourt in1305INin that1306DTthat sort1307NNsort of1308INof distinction1309NNdistinction .1310SENT. And1311CCand that1312DTthat 's1313VBZbe always1314RBalways been1315VBNbe a1316DTa possibility1317NNpossibility whether1318INwhether there1319EXthere 's1320VBZbe an1321DTan appeal1322NNappeal waiver1323NNwaiver ,1324,, whether1325INwhether it1326PPit 's1327POS's Flores-Ortega1328NPFlores-Ortega and1329CCand it1330PPit 's1331VBZbe just1332RBjust a1333DTa guilty1334JJguilty plea1335NNplea .1336SENT. The1337DTthe guilty1338JJguilty plea1339NNplea waives1340VVZwaive all1341DTall non-jurisdictional1342JJnon-jurisdictional claims1343NNSclaim .1344SENT. So1345RBso it1346PPit 's1347VBZbe ...1348:... that1349WDTthat 's1350VBZbe always1351RBalways a1352DTa possibility1353NNpossibility ,1354,, and1355CCand courts1356NNScourt have1357VHPhave dealt1358VVNdeal with1359INwith that1360DTthat ,1361,, you1362PPyou know1363VVPknow ,1364,, for1365INfor over1366INover 501367CD@card@ years1368NNSyear under1369INunder Anders1370NPAnders .1371SENT. And1372CCand it1373PPit has1374VHZhave n't1375RBn't been1376VBNbe a1377DTa problem1378NNproblem ,1379,, and1380CCand what1381WPwhat it1382PPit 's1383VBZbe provided1384VVNprovide is1385VBZbe the1386DTthe protections1387NNSprotection that1388IN/thatthat that1389DTthat decision1390NNdecision was1391VBDbe all1392RBall about1393RBabout and1394CCand has1395VHZhave been1396VBNbe applied1397VVNapply by1398INby this1399DTthis Court1400NPCourt several1401JJseveral times1402NNStime since1403RBsince .1404SENT. The1405DTthe ...1406:... the1407DTthe second1408JJsecond response1409NNresponse I1410PPI have1411VHPhave is1412VBZbe ...1413:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1414LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I1415PPI think1416VVPthink you1417PPyou 're1418VBPbe ...1419:... you1420PPyou 're1421VBPbe going1422VVGgo a1423DTa little1424JJlittle too1425RBtoo fast1426RBfast ...1427:... [MR. ALI]1428LOC[MR. ALI] Okay1429NPOkay .1430SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1431LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1432:... because1433INbecause I1434PPI 'm1435VBPbe breaking1436VVGbreak that1437IN/thatthat down1438RBdown .1439SENT. [MR. ALI]1440LOC[MR. ALI] Okay1441NPOkay .1442SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1443LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All1444DTall right1445NNright ?1446SENT? A1447DTa defendant1448NNdefendant comes1449VVZcome to1450TOto you1451PPyou ,1452,, you1453PPyou 're1454VBPbe a1455DTa competent1456JJcompetent attorney1457NNattorney ,1458,, and1459CCand says1460VVZsay I1461PPI want1462VVPwant to1463TOto appeal1464VVappeal .1465SENT. What1466WPWhat does1467VVZdo a1468DTa defense1469NNdefense attorney1470NNattorney generally1471RBgenerally do1472VVPdo first1473JJfirst ?1474SENT? He1475PPhe consults1476VVZconsult ,1477,, correct1478VVcorrect ?1479SENT? He1480PPhe tells1481VVZtell the1482DTthe client1483NNclient :1484:: You1485PPyou ...1486:... this1487DTthis is1488VBZbe what1489WPwhat the1490DTthe law1491NNlaw says1492VVZsay .1493SENT. You1494PPyou have1495VHPhave a1496DTa waiver1497NNwaiver in1498INin here1499RBhere .1500SENT. You1501PPyou should1502MDshould n't1503RBn't appeal1504VVappeal .1505SENT. You1506PPyou run1507VVPrun the1508DTthe risk1509NNrisk of1510INof breaching1511VVGbreach the1512DTthe agreement1513NNagreement ,1514,, and1515CCand the1516DTthe government1517NNgovernment could1518MDcould go1519VVgo back1520RBback and1521CCand rescind1522VVrescind the1523DTthe agreement1524NNagreement and1525CCand put1526VVput you1527PPyou into1528INinto jail1529NNjail for1530INfor a1531DTa lot1532NNlot longer1533RBRlonger .1534SENT. Do1535VVdo you1536PPyou really1537RBreally want1538VVPwant to1539TOto do1540VVdo this1541DTthis ?1542SENT? Now1543RBnow the1544DTthe client1545NNclient ...1546:... is1547VBZbe n't1548RBn't the1549DTthe client1550NNclient the1551DTthe one1552CDone who1553WPwho has1554VHZhave the1555DTthe right1556NNright to1557TOto appeal1558VVappeal ?1559SENT? Is1560VBZbe n't1561RBn't that1562IN/thatthat what1563WPwhat we1564PPwe 've1565VHPhave said1566VVNsay for1567INfor dozens1568NNSdozen of1569INof cases1570NNScase ?1571SENT? [MR. ALI]1572LOC[MR. ALI] That1573DTthat 's1574VBZbe correct1575JJcorrect ,1576,, Your1577PP$your Honor1578NPHonor .1579SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1580LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] The1581DTthe attorney1582NNattorney can1583MDcan decide1584VVdecide what1585WPwhat to1586TOto appeal1587VVappeal .1588SENT. And1589CCand so1590RBso ,1591,, if1592INif the1593DTthe client1594NNclient tells1595VVZtell you1596PPyou appeal1597VVPappeal ,1598,, you1599PPyou put1600VVDput in1601INin your1602PP$your notice1603NNnotice of1604INof appeal1605NNappeal .1606SENT. And1607CCand if1608INif you1609PPyou do1610VVPdo n't1611RBn't think1612VVthink there1613EXthere 's1614VBZbe a1615DTa viable1616JJviable issue1617NNissue ,1618,, you1619PPyou file1620VVPfile an1621DTan Anders1622NPAnders brief1623NNbrief and1624CCand you1625PPyou tell1626VVPtell the1627DTthe court1628NNcourt there1629EXthere is1630VBZbe n't1631RBn't .1632SENT. The1633DTthe defendant1634NNdefendant then1635RBthen has1636VHZhave ...1637:... is1638VBZbe invited1639VVNinvite to1640TOto tell1641VVtell the1642DTthe court1643NNcourt what1644WPwhat it1645PPit thinks1646VVZthink ,1647,, right1648RBright ?1649SENT? [MR. ALI]1650LOC[MR. ALI] That1651DTthat 's1652VBZbe right1653JJright .1654SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1655LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] And1656CCand then1657RBthen the1658DTthe court1659NNcourt makes1660VVZmake the1661DTthe decision1662NNdecision ,1663,, correct1664JJcorrect ?1665SENT? [MR. ALI]1666LOC[MR. ALI] That1667DTthat 's1668VBZbe correct1669JJcorrect .1670SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1671LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I1672PPI ...1673:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1674LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] With1675INwith the1676DTthe client1677NNclient deciding1678VVGdecide whether1679INwhether he1680PPhe wants1681VVZwant to1682TOto rescind1683VVrescind the1684DTthe plea1685NNplea agreement1686NNagreement ?1687SENT? Nothing1688NNnothing prohibits1689VVZprohibit a1690DTa defendant1691NNdefendant from1692INfrom rescinding1693VVGrescind a1694DTa contract1695NNcontract ,1696,, correct1697JJcorrect ?1698SENT? [MR. ALI]1699LOC[MR. ALI] That1700DTthat 's1701VBZbe right1702JJright ,1703,, Your1704PP$your Honor1705NPHonor ,1706,, although1707INalthough I1708PPI do1709VVPdo n't1710RBn't think1711VVthink that1712IN/thatthat our1713PP$our argument1714NNargument ...1715:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1716LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You1717PPyou suffer1718VVPsuffer consequences1719NNSconsequence ...1720:... [MR. ALI]1721LOC[MR. ALI] ...1722:... is1723VBZbe contingent1724JJcontingent on1725INon that1726IN/thatthat ,1727,, that1728WDTthat ...1729:... this1730DTthis idea1731NNidea of1732INof ...1733:... of1734INof autonomous1735JJautonomous right1736NNright to1737TOto breach1738VVbreach .1739SENT. I1740PPI think1741VVPthink that1742WDTthat is1743VBZbe correct1744JJcorrect ,1745,, though1746RBthough .1747SENT. And1748CCand ...1749:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1750LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I1751PPI ...1752:... I1753PPI understood1754VVDunderstand that1755IN/thatthat to1756TOto be1757VBbe your1758PP$your position1759NNposition .1760SENT. You1761PPyou said1762VVDsay you1763PPyou had1764VHDhave two1765CDtwo answers1766NNSanswer to1767TOto my1768PP$my question1769NNquestion .1770SENT. [MR. ALI]1771LOC[MR. ALI] Yeah1772NPYeah ,1773,, and1774CCand ...1775:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1776LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] What1777WPWhat was1778VBDbe the1779DTthe second1780JJsecond one1781CDone ?1782SENT? [MR. ALI]1783LOC[MR. ALI] Sure1784NPSure .1785SENT. And1786CCand ...1787:... and1788CCand Justice1789NPJustice Sotomayor1790NPSotomayor touched1791VVDtouch on1792INon them1793PPthem ,1794,, but1795CCbut let1796VVlet me1797PPme just1798RBjust repeat1799VVrepeat them1800PPthem .1801SENT. So1802RBso ...1803:... in1804INin a1805DTa slightly1806RBslightly different1807JJdifferent way1808NNway .1809SENT. So1810INso the1811DTthe second1812JJsecond answer1813NNanswer is1814VBZbe why1815WRBwhy what1816WPwhat the1817DTthe defendant1818NNdefendant has1819VHZhave identified1820VVNidentify as1821INas the1822DTthe issue1823NNissue matters1824NNSmatter ,1825,, because1826INbecause a1827DTa defendant1828NNdefendant does1829VVZdo n't1830RBn't make1831VVmake the1832DTthe decision1833NNdecision what1834WDTwhat issues1835NNSissue will1836MDwill be1837VBbe raised1838VVNraise on1839INon appeal1840NNappeal .1841SENT. He1842PPhe makes1843VVZmake the1844DTthe decision1845NNdecision whether1846INwhether his1847PP$his objective1848NNobjective is1849VBZbe to1850TOto appeal1851VVappeal .1852SENT. And1853CCand so1854INso what1855WPwhat we1856PPwe would1857MDwould say1858VVsay is1859VBZbe that1860IN/thatthat when1861WRBwhen a1862DTa defendant1863NNdefendant articulates1864VVZarticulate to1865TOto his1866PP$his attorney1867NNattorney ,1868,, his1869PP$his agent1870NNagent ,1871,, if1872INif you1873PPyou will1874MDwill ,1875,, that1876IN/thatthat his1877PP$his objective1878NNobjective is1879VBZbe to1880TOto show1881VVshow that1882IN/thatthat the1883DTthe plea1884NNplea proceedings1885NNSproceeding that1886WDTthat just1887RBjust took1888VVDtake place1889NNplace were1890VBDbe unlawful1891JJunlawful ,1892,, the1893DTthe attorney1894NNattorney has1895VHZhave no1896DTno place1897NNplace telling1898VVGtell that1899DTthat defendant1900NNdefendant that1901IN/thatthat he1902PPhe would1903MDwould prefer1904VVprefer to1905TOto just1906RBjust substitute1907VVsubstitute his1908PP$his own1909JJown view1910NNview that1911IN/thatthat the1912DTthe defendant1913NNdefendant go1914VVgo off1915RPoff ,1916,, cede1917VVcede defeat1918NNdefeat ,1919,, and1920CCand go1921VVgo to1922TOto prison1923NNprison .1924SENT. That1925DTthat is1926VBZbe our1927PP$our position1928NNposition .1929SENT. And1930CCand ...1931:... and1932CCand that1933DTthat 's1934VBZbe why1935WRBwhy ,1936,, as1937INas the1938DTthe Court1939NNcourt recognized1940VVNrecognize in1941INin Jones1942NPJones v1943NNv .1944SENT. Barnes1945NPBarnes ,1946,, the1947DTthe person1948NNperson who1949WPwho makes1950VVZmake the1951DTthe decisions1952NNSdecision as1953INas to1954TOto what1955WPwhat issues1956NNSissue will1957MDwill be1958VBbe raised1959VVNraise is1960VBZbe the1961DTthe appellate1962JJappellate attorney1963NNattorney .1964SENT. And1965CCand so1966RBso it1967PPit would1968MDwould be1969VBbe illogical1970JJillogical to1971TOto say1972VVsay that1973IN/thatthat a1974DTa defendant1975NNdefendant 's1976POS's right1977NNright to1978TOto appeal1979VVappeal ,1980,, as1981INas the1982DTthe United1983NPUnited States1984NPSStates '1985POS' argument1986NNargument ...1987:... argues1988VVZargue here1989RBhere ,1990,, turns1991VVZturn on1992INon his1993PP$his ability1994NNability to1995TOto articulate1996VVarticulate certain1997JJcertain issues1998NNSissue .1999SENT. And2000CCand ...2001:... and2002CCand remember2003VVremember ,2004,, Your2005PP$your Honor2006NPHonor ,2007,, we2008PPwe 're2009VBPbe talking2010VVGtalk about2011INabout the2012DTthe notice2013NNnotice of2014INof appeal2015NNappeal stage2016NNstage here2017RBhere ,2018,, so2019RBso the2020DTthe record2021NNrecord typically2022RBtypically has2023VHZhave n't2024RBn't been2025VBNbe ordered2026VVNorder here2027RBhere .2028SENT. It2029PPit certainly2030RBcertainly would2031MDwould n't2032RBn't have2033VHhave been2034VBNbe ordered2035VVNorder in2036INin Idaho2037NPIdaho because2038INbecause that2039WDTthat 's2040VBZbe triggered2041VVNtrigger by2042INby the2043DTthe notice2044NNnotice of2045INof appeal2046NNappeal .2047SENT. So2048RBso you2049PPyou 're2050VBPbe asking2051VVGask an2052DTan ...2053:... generally2054RBgenerally a2055DTa ...2056:... a2057DTa defendant2058NNdefendant with2059INwith limited2060JJlimited education2061NNeducation ,2062,, his2063PP$his exposure2064NNexposure to2065TOto the2066DTthe legal2067JJlegal system2068NNsystem might2069MDmight be2070VBbe minutes2071NNSminute ,2072,, maybe2073RBmaybe hours2074NNShour ,2075,, to2076TOto potentially2077RBpotentially specify2078VVspecify certain2079JJcertain issues2080NNSissue that2081WDTthat might2082MDmight be2083VBbe in2084INin or2085CCor outside2086INoutside the2087DTthe scope2088NNscope of2089INof his2090PP$his waiver2091NNwaiver ,2092,, and2093CCand then2094RBthen you2095PPyou 're2096VBPbe asking2097VVGask his2098PP$his agent2099NNagent to2100TOto basically2101RBbasically play2102VVplay judge2103NNjudge and2104CCand forfeit2105VVforfeit his2106PP$his appeal2107NNappeal if2108INif he2109PPhe alone2110RBalone thinks2111VVZthink that2112IN/thatthat the2113DTthe words2114NNSword that2115WDTthat came2116VVDcome out2117RPout of2118INof the2119DTthe defendant2120NNdefendant 's2121POS's mouth2122NNmouth happen2123VVhappen to2124TOto fall2125VVfall within2126INwithin the2127DTthe waiver2128NNwaiver .2129SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2130LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But2131CCbut I2132PPI think2133VVPthink your2134PP$your argument2135NNargument does2136VVZdo ultimately2137RBultimately depend2138VVdepend on2139INon the2140DTthe proposition2141NNproposition that2142IN/thatthat the2143DTthe defendant2144NNdefendant has2145VHZhave this2146DTthis categorical2147JJcategorical right2148NNright based2149VVNbase on2150INon autonomy2151NNautonomy to2152TOto insist2153VVinsist on2154INon an2155DTan appeal2156NNappeal and2157CCand have2158VHhave an2159DTan attorney2160NNattorney perfect2161JJperfect the2162DTthe appeal2163NNappeal ,2164,, file2165VVfile the2166DTthe notice2167NNnotice of2168INof appeal2169NNappeal ,2170,, even2171RBeven if2172INif there2173EXthere is2174VBZbe zero2175CDzero chance2176NNchance that2177IN/thatthat the2178DTthe appeal2179NNappeal will2180MDwill be2181VBbe found2182VVNfind not2183RBnot to2184TOto have2185VHhave been2186VBNbe waived2187VVNwaive .2188SENT. I2189PPI ...2190:... I2191PPI think2192VVPthink ...2193:... and2194CCand maybe2195RBmaybe that2196WDTthat 's2197VBZbe right2198JJright ,2199,, but2200CCbut I2201PPI ...2202:... I2203PPI do2204VVPdo think2205VVthink your2206PP$your argument2207NNargument depends2208VVZdepend on2209INon that2210DTthat .2211SENT. And2212CCand I2213PPI ...2214:... I2215PPI wonder2216VVPwonder how2217WRBhow that2218DTthat is2219VBZbe consistent2220JJconsistent with2221INwith the2222DTthe way2223NNway Flores-Ortega2224NPFlores-Ortega analyzed2225VVDanalyze the2226DTthe question2227NNquestion of2228INof whether2229INwhether the2230DTthe attorney2231NNattorney was2232VBDbe deficient2233JJdeficient in2234INin that2235DTthat situation2236NNsituation .2237SENT. If2238INif there2239EXthere is2240VBZbe such2241PDTsuch a2242DTa right2243NNright ,2244,, then2245RBthen why2246WRBwhy would2247MDwould n't2248RBn't the2249DTthe attorney2250NNattorney have2251VHhave the2252DTthe right2253NNright to2254TOto ...2255:... have2256VHPhave the2257DTthe obligation2258NNobligation to2259TOto consult2260VVconsult with2261INwith the2262DTthe ...2263:... with2264INwith the2265DTthe client2266NNclient and2267CCand to2268TOto tell2269VVtell the2270DTthe client2271NNclient that2272IN/thatthat the2273DTthe client2274NNclient has2275VHZhave that2276DTthat right2277NNright ?2278SENT? But2279CCbut ,2280,, instead2281RBinstead ,2282,, it2283PPit went2284VVDgo through2285INthrough a2286DTa very2287RBvery complicated2288VVNcomplicate fact-bound2289JJfact-bound inquiry2290NNinquiry into2291INinto whether2292INwhether what2293WPwhat the2294DTthe attorney2295NNattorney did2296VVDdo or2297CCor called2298VVDcall for2299INfor such2300PDTsuch an2301DTan inquiry2302NNinquiry into2303INinto whether2304INwhether what2305WPwhat the2306DTthe attorney2307NNattorney did2308VVDdo was2309VBDbe deficient2310JJdeficient .2311SENT. [MR. ALI]2312LOC[MR. ALI] So2313INso I2314PPI think2315VVPthink there2316EXthere are2317VBPbe two2318CDtwo parts2319NNSpart to2320TOto your2321PP$your question2322NNquestion .2323SENT. So2324RBso ,2325,, first2326RBfirst ,2327,, as2328INas to2329TOto whether2330INwhether our2331PP$our position2332NNposition is2333VBZbe that2334DTthat ...2335:... so2336RBso let2337VVlet me2338PPme answer2339VVanswer this2340DTthis way2341NNway .2342SENT. Our2343PP$our position2344NNposition is2345VBZbe that2346IN/thatthat the2347DTthe determination2348NNdetermination of2349INof whether2350INwhether there2351EXthere are2352VBPbe non-frivolous2353JJnon-frivolous or2354CCor meritorious2355JJmeritorious decisions2356NNSdecision does2357VVZdo n't2358RBn't take2359VVtake place2360NNplace .2361SENT. It2362PPit may2363MDmay take2364VVtake place2365NNplace in2366INin a2367DTa preliminary2368JJpreliminary fashion2369NNfashion during2370INduring the2371DTthe notice2372NNnotice of2373INof appeal2374NNappeal phase2375NNphase ,2376,, but2377CCbut that2378DTthat 's2379VBZbe an2380DTan issue2381NNissue for2382INfor appellate2383JJappellate counsel2384NNcounsel .2385SENT. And2386CCand that2387DTthat ...2388:... and2389CCand that2390DTthat risk2391NNrisk ,2392,, as2393INas I2394PPI mentioned2395VVDmention ,2396,, that2397IN/thatthat there2398EXthere would2399MDwould be2400VBbe no2401DTno meritorious2402JJmeritorious issue2403NNissue that2404WDTthat is2405VBZbe to2406TOto be2407VBbe raised2408VVNraise on2409INon appeal2410NNappeal was2411VBDbe ,2412,, of2413INof course2414NNcourse ,2415,, present2416JJpresent in2417INin Flores-Ortega2418NPFlores-Ortega as2419INas well2420RBwell .2421SENT. Mr2422NPMr .2423SENT. Flores-Ortega2424NPFlores-Ortega had2425VHDhave waived2426VVNwaive all2427DTall non-jurisdictional2428JJnon-jurisdictional claims2429NNSclaim that2430IN/thatthat he2431PPhe had2432VHDhave ,2433,, and2434CCand so2435RBso there2436EXthere was2437VBDbe very2438RBvery much2439RBmuch a2440DTa possibility2441NNpossibility of2442INof that2443WDTthat there2444EXthere as2445RBas well2446RBwell .2447SENT. And2448CCand ...2449:... and2450CCand to2451TOto answer2452VVanswer the2453DTthe second2454JJsecond part2455NNpart of2456INof your2457PP$your question2458NNquestion about2459INabout what2460WPwhat the2461DTthe Court2462NPCourt said2463VVDsay in2464INin Flores-Ortega2465NPFlores-Ortega ,2466,, the2467DTthe Court2468NPCourt specifically2469RBspecifically acknowledged2470VVDacknowledge there2471RBthere that2472IN/thatthat pleading2473VVGplead guilty2474RBguilty substantially2475RBsubstantially reduced2476VVNreduce the2477DTthe number2478NNnumber of2479INof claims2480NNSclaim that2481IN/thatthat Mr2482NPMr .2483SENT. Flores-Ortega2484NPFlores-Ortega could2485MDcould bring2486VVbring .2487SENT. And2488CCand in2489INin the2490DTthe very2491RBvery next2492JJnext sentence2493NNsentence ,2494,, it2495PPit acknowledged2496VVDacknowledge the2497DTthe possibility2498NNpossibility of2499INof what2500WPwhat we2501PPwe have2502VHPhave here2503RBhere .2504SENT. It2505PPit said2506VVDsay that2507IN/thatthat a2508DTa defendant2509NNdefendant may2510MDmay also2511RBalso expressly2512RBexpressly waive2513VVwaive some2514DTsome claims2515NNSclaim in2516INin addition2517NNaddition to2518TOto that2519DTthat .2520SENT. And2521CCand the2522DTthe relevance2523NNrelevance that2524IN/thatthat it2525PPit recognizes2526VVZrecognize ,2527,, what2528WPwhat we2529PPwe believe2530VVPbelieve the2531DTthe relevance2532NNrelevance should2533MDshould be2534VBbe here2535RBhere ,2536,, which2537WDTwhich is2538VBZbe that2539IN/thatthat the2540DTthe act2541NNact of2542INof signing2543NNsigning ...2544:... of2545INof pleading2546VVGplead guilty2547JJguilty and2548CCand of2549INof signing2550VVGsign an2551DTan appeal2552NNappeal waiver2553NNwaiver represents2554VVZrepresent a2555DTa ...2556:... a2557DTa ...2558:... a2559DTa ...2560:... a2561DTa ...2562:... an2563DTan indication2564NNindication of2565INof finality2566NNfinality ,2567,, an2568DTan interest2569NNinterest in2570INin finality2571NNfinality on2572INon the2573DTthe part2574NNpart of2575INof the2576DTthe defendant2577NNdefendant .2578SENT. And2579CCand that2580DTthat 's2581VBZbe why2582WRBwhy few2583JJfew defendants2584NNSdefendant will2585MDwill plead2586VVplead guilty2587JJguilty ,2588,, sign2589VVsign an2590DTan appeal2591NNappeal waiver2592NNwaiver ,2593,, and2594CCand then2595RBthen instruct2596VVinstruct their2597PP$their attorney2598NNattorney to2599TOto appeal2600VVappeal in2601INin the2602DTthe first2603JJfirst place2604NNplace .2605SENT. And2606CCand on2607INon top2608NNtop of2609INof that2610WDTthat ,2611,, in2612INin addition2613NNaddition to2614TOto acting2615VVGact as2616INas a2617DTa ...2618:... an2619DTan indication2620NNindication of2621INof finality2622NNfinality on2623INon the2624DTthe part2625NNpart of2626INof the2627DTthe defendant2628NNdefendant ,2629,, as2630INas the2631DTthe State2632NPState and2633CCand the2634DTthe United2635NPUnited States2636NPSStates acknowledge2637VVPacknowledge and2638CCand ,2639,, in2640INin fact2641NNfact ,2642,, represent2643VVPrepresent throughout2644INthroughout their2645PP$their briefs2646NNSbrief ,2647,, pleading2648VVGplead guilty2649JJguilty ,2650,, signing2651VVGsign an2652DTan appeal2653NNappeal waiver2654NNwaiver ,2655,, and2656CCand then2657RBthen having2658VHGhave appellate2659JJappellate counsel2660NNcounsel raise2661VVraise an2662DTan issue2663NNissue that2664WDTthat even2665RBeven might2666MDmight fall2667VVfall within2668INwithin the2669DTthe appeal2670NNappeal waiver2671NNwaiver can2672MDcan have2673VHhave serious2674JJserious consequences2675NNSconsequence for2676INfor a2677DTa defendant2678NNdefendant .2679SENT. And2680CCand so2681RBso it2682PPit acts2683VVZact and2684CCand has2685VHZhave acted2686VVNact as2687INas a2688DTa sort2689NNsort of2690INof natural2691JJnatural check2692NNcheck .2693SENT. And2694CCand ...2695:... and2696CCand that2697DTthat 's2698VBZbe why2699WRBwhy there2700EXthere really2701RBreally is2702VBZbe no2703DTno evidence2704NNevidence or2705CCor ...2706:... or2707CCor certainly2708RBcertainly we2709PPwe would2710MDwould have2711VHhave expected2712VVNexpect the2713DTthe United2714NPUnited States2715NPSStates to2716TOto provide2717VVprovide evidence2718NNevidence to2719TOto support2720VVsupport its2721PP$its idea2722NNidea that2723IN/thatthat there2724EXthere would2725MDwould be2726VBbe frivolous2727JJfrivolous appeals2728NNSappeal ,2729,, for2730INfor instance2731NNinstance ,2732,, following2733VVGfollow a2734DTa trial2735NNtrial .2736SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]2737LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I2738PPI think2739VVPthink we2740PPwe have2741VHPhave to2742TOto ...2743:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2744LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr2745NPMr .2746SENT. Ali2747NPAli ...2748:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2749LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...2750:... understand2751VVunderstand the2752DTthe nature2753NNnature of2754INof the2755DTthe right2756NNright that2757IN/thatthat you2758PPyou 're2759VBPbe asserting2760VVGassert ,2761,, if2762INif I2763PPI could2764MDcould just2765RBjust come2766VVcome back2767RBback to2768TOto the2769DTthe ...2770:... the2771DTthe Chief2772NPChief Justice2773NPJustice 's2774POS's question2775NNquestion and2776CCand perhaps2777RBperhaps embellish2778VVembellish it2779PPit a2780DTa little2781JJlittle .2782SENT. So2783RBso you2784PPyou have2785VHPhave the2786DTthe ...2787:... you2788PPyou have2789VHPhave a2790DTa ...2791:... a2792DTa defendant2793NNdefendant who2794WPwho is2795VBZbe an2796DTan expert2797NNexpert on2798INon plea2799NNplea bargains2800NNSbargain and2801CCand plea2802NNplea waivers2803NNSwaiver and2804CCand knows2805VVZknow everything2806NNeverything about2807INabout it2808PPit .2809SENT. This2810DTthis is2811VBZbe a2812DTa highly2813RBhighly intelligent2814JJintelligent ,2815,, educated2816JJeducated person2817NNperson ,2818,, and2819CCand signs2820VVZsign a2821DTa plea2822NNplea ...2823:... a2824DTa ...2825:... a2826DTa plea2827NNplea agreement2828NNagreement waiving2829VVGwaive Issue2830NPIssue A2831NPA and2832CCand then2833RBthen ,2834,, as2835RBas soon2836RBsoon as2837INas the2838DTthe defendant2839NNdefendant is2840VBZbe sentenced2841VVNsentence ,2842,, says2843VVZsay to2844TOto his2845PP$his attorney2846NNattorney :2847:: I2848PPI want2849VVPwant to2850TOto appeal2851VVappeal Issue2852NPIssue A2853NPA .2854SENT. And2855CCand ...2856:... and2857CCand I2858PPI think2859VVPthink your2860PP$your answer2861NNanswer has2862VHZhave to2863TOto be2864VBbe that2865IN/thatthat the2866DTthe ...2867:... that2868IN/thatthat that2869DTthat is2870VBZbe the2871DTthe right2872NNright of2873INof the2874DTthe defendant2875NNdefendant and2876CCand the2877DTthe obligation2878NNobligation of2879INof the2880DTthe attorney2881NNattorney to2882TOto carry2883VVcarry out2884RPout that2885DTthat ...2886:... the2887DTthe client2888NNclient 's2889POS's wishes2890NNSwish .2891SENT. Am2892VBPbe I2893PPI right2894JJright ?2895SENT? [MR. ALI]2896LOC[MR. ALI] I2897PPI think2898VVPthink that2899WDTthat 's2900VBZbe ...2901:... [JUSTICE ALITO]2902LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] That2903DTthat has2904VHZhave to2905TOto be2906VBbe your2907PP$your position2908NNposition .2909SENT. [MR. ALI]2910LOC[MR. ALI] ...2911:... I2912PPI think2913VVPthink that2914WDTthat 's2915VBZbe right2916JJright ,2917,, Your2918PP$your Honor2919NPHonor .2920SENT. I2921PPI think2922VVPthink it2923PPit 's2924VBZbe largely2925RBlargely an2926DTan unrealistic2927JJunrealistic scenario2928NNscenario for2929INfor most2930JJSmost defendants2931NNSdefendant .2932SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2933LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr2934NPMr .2935SENT. Ali2936NPAli ,2937,, what2938WPwhat do2939VVPdo you2940PPyou do2941VVPdo with2942INwith the2943DTthe jurisdictions2944NNSjurisdiction that2945WDTthat permit2946VVPpermit a2947DTa defense2948NNdefense attorney2949NNattorney to2950TOto tell2951VVtell a2952DTa client2953NNclient :2954:: I2955PPI do2956VVPdo n't2957RBn't see2958VVsee there2959EXthere 's2960VBZbe a2961DTa meritorious2962JJmeritorious issue2963NNissue ,2964,, but2965CCbut I2966PPI 'm2967VBPbe going2968VVGgo to2969TOto give2970VVgive you2971PPyou the2972DTthe instructions2973NNSinstruction on2974INon how2975WRBhow to2976TOto file2977VVfile your2978PP$your own2979JJown notice2980NNnotice of2981INof appeal2982NNappeal ?2983SENT? There2984EXthere are2985VBPbe other2986JJother jurisdictions2987NNSjurisdiction ...2988:... I2989PPI think2990VVPthink the2991DTthe majority2992NNmajority ...2993:... who2994WPwho require2995VVPrequire the2996DTthe attorney2997NNattorney to2998TOto file2999VVfile the3000DTthe notice3001NNnotice of3002INof appeal3003NNappeal and3004CCand then3005RBthen an3006DTan Anders3007NPAnders brief3008NNbrief .3009SENT. But3010CCbut what3011WPwhat do3012VVPdo we3013PPwe do3014VVPdo with3015INwith those3016DTthose that3017WDTthat say3018VVPsay :3019:: When3020WRBwhen you3021PPyou 're3022VBPbe instructed3023VVNinstruct by3024INby your3025PP$your client3026NNclient to3027TOto file3028VVfile a3029DTa notice3030NNnotice of3031INof appeal3032NNappeal and3033CCand you3034PPyou can3035MDcan 't3036RB't do3037VVPdo it3038PPit because3039INbecause it3040PPit 's3041VBZbe an3042DTan ethical3043JJethical obligation3044NNobligation ...3045:... an3046DTan ethical3047JJethical violation3048NNviolation ,3049,, you3050PPyou tell3051VVPtell the3052DTthe client3053NNclient how3054WRBhow to3055TOto do3056VVdo it3057PPit .3058SENT. [MR. ALI]3059LOC[MR. ALI] Right3060RBright .3061SENT. So3062RBso let3063VVlet me3064PPme just3065RBjust ...3066:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3067LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Is3068VBZbe that3069IN/thatthat enough3070RBenough for3071INfor you3072PPyou ?3073SENT? [MR. ALI]3074LOC[MR. ALI] Can3075MDcan I3076PPI just3077RBjust clarify3078VVclarify ,3079,, this3080DTthis particular3081JJparticular record3082NNrecord ,3083,, Idaho3084NPIdaho does3085VVZdo specifically3086RBspecifically provide3087VVprovide that3088IN/thatthat if3089INif a3090DTa attorney3091NNattorney withdraws3092VVZwithdraw before3093INbefore the3094DTthe notice3095NNnotice of3096INof appeal3097NNappeal is3098VBZbe ...3099:... is3100VBZbe filed3101VVNfile ,3102,, that3103IN/thatthat the3104DTthe defendant3105NNdefendant will3106MDwill be3107VBbe provided3108VVNprovide with3109INwith new3110JJnew counsel3111NNcounsel .3112SENT. And3113CCand ,3114,, of3115INof course3116NNcourse ,3117,, it3118PPit was3119VBDbe the3120DTthe very3121JJvery representation3122NNrepresentation of3123INof the3124DTthe defendant3125NNdefendant here3126RBhere that3127IN/thatthat prevented3128VVNprevent the3129DTthe defendant3130NNdefendant under3131INunder ...3132:... under3133INunder procedural3134JJprocedural rules3135NNSrule from3136INfrom filing3137VVGfile a3138DTa notice3139NNnotice of3140INof appeal3141NNappeal himself3142PPhimself .3143SENT. And3144CCand so3145RBso that3146DTthat 's3147VBZbe why3148WRBwhy we3149PPwe know3150VVPknow it3151PPit caused3152VVDcause a3153DTa ...3154:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3155LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Yeah3156NPYeah ,3157,, the3158DTthe error3159NNerror here3160RBhere was3161VBDbe the3162DTthe attorney3163NNattorney did3164VVDdo nothing3165NNnothing and3166CCand ignored3167VVNignore ...3168:... claims3169VVZclaim to3170TOto have3171VHhave done3172VVNdo nothing3173NNnothing ...3174:... [MR. ALI]3175LOC[MR. ALI] That3176DTthat 's3177VBZbe right3178JJright .3179SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3180LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...3181:... and3182CCand ignored3183VVDignore ...3184:... [MR. ALI]3185LOC[MR. ALI] And3186CCand so3187RBso ...3188:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3189LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...3190:... repeated3191VVNrepeat inquiries3192NNSinquiry about3193INabout the3194DTthe appeal3195NNappeal .3196SENT. [MR. ALI]3197LOC[MR. ALI] And3198CCand ,3199,, of3200INof course3201NNcourse ,3202,, we3203PPwe agree3204VVPagree that3205IN/thatthat counsel3206NNcounsel should3207MDshould have3208VHhave a3209DTa conversation3210NNconversation with3211INwith the3212DTthe defendant3213NNdefendant and3214CCand say3215VVPsay :3216:: We3217PPwe think3218VVPthink ...3219:... you3220PPyou know3221VVPknow ,3222,, I3223PPI believe3224VVPbelieve ...3225:... I3226PPI do3227VVPdo n't3228RBn't have3229VHhave the3230DTthe record3231NNrecord yet3232RByet ,3233,, he3234PPhe should3235MDshould caveat3236NNcaveat it3237PPit ,3238,, I3239PPI do3240VVPdo n't3241RBn't have3242VHhave the3243DTthe record3244NNrecord yet3245RByet ,3246,, this3247DTthis is3248VBZbe a3249DTa preliminary3250JJpreliminary assessment3251NNassessment during3252INduring the3253DTthe short3254JJshort window3255NNwindow ,3256,, but3257CCbut I3258PPI think3259VVPthink it3260PPit 's3261VBZbe going3262VVGgo to3263TOto be3264VBbe very3265RBvery difficult3266JJdifficult for3267INfor you3268PPyou to3269TOto argue3270VVargue around3271RParound your3272PP$your appeal3273NNappeal waiver3274NNwaiver to3275TOto raise3276VVraise this3277DTthis issue3278NNissue that3279IN/thatthat Justice3280NPJustice Alito3281NPAlito was3282VBDbe describing3283VVGdescribe ,3284,, but3285CCbut he3286PPhe should3287MDshould still3288RBstill perfect3289VVperfect the3290DTthe appeal3291NNappeal ,3292,, because3293INbecause what3294WPwhat we3295PPwe 're3296VBPbe asking3297VVGask the3298DTthe attorney3299NNattorney to3300TOto do3301VVdo is3302VBZbe a3303DTa ministerial3304JJministerial task3305NNtask here3306RBhere once3307RBonce the3308DTthe defendant3309NNdefendant has3310VHZhave made3311VVNmake its3312PP$its decision3313NNdecision .3314SENT. And3315CCand we3316PPwe know3317VVPknow that3318DTthat ...3319:... the3320DTthe United3321NPUnited States3322NPStates knows3323VVZknow that3324IN/thatthat better3325JJRgood than3326INthan anybody3327NNanybody .3328SENT. Title3329NNtitle 23330CD2 of3331INof the3332DTthe U3333NPU .3334SENT. S3335NPS .3336SENT. Attorney3337NPAttorney 's3338POS's manual3339NNmanual tells3340VVZtell U3341NPU .3342SENT. S3343NPS .3344SENT. Attorneys3345NNSattorney :3346:: Line3347NPLine Attorney3348NPAttorney ,3349,, if3350INif you3351PPyou have3352VHPhave not3353RBnot heard3354VVNhear back3355RBback from3356INfrom the3357DTthe Solicitor3358NPSolicitor General3359NPGeneral 's3360POS's office3361NNoffice ,3362,, you3363PPyou may3364MDmay have3365VHhave recommended3366VVNrecommend that3367IN/thatthat there3368EXthere is3369VBZbe no3370DTno plausible3371JJplausible ground3372NNground for3373INfor appealing3374VVGappeal in3375INin this3376DTthis case3377NNcase ,3378,, but3379CCbut if3380INif you3381PPyou do3382VVPdo n't3383RBn't hear3384VVhear back3385RBback from3386INfrom the3387DTthe appellate3388JJappellate section3389NNsection or3390CCor the3391DTthe Solicitor3392NPSolicitor General3393NPGeneral 's3394POS's office3395NNoffice ,3396,, file3397VVfile that3398DTthat protective3399JJprotective notice3400NNnotice of3401INof appeal3402NNappeal .3403SENT. And3404CCand ...3405:... and3406CCand the3407DTthe reason3408NNreason is3409VBZbe ...3410:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3411LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But3412CCbut what3413WPwhat are3414VBPbe the3415DTthe practical3416JJpractical differences3417NNSdifference between3418INbetween the3419DTthe consequences3420NNSconsequence of3421INof the3422DTthe position3423NNposition you3424PPyou 're3425VBPbe advocating3426VVGadvocate and3427CCand what3428WPwhat would3429MDwould happen3430VVhappen if3431INif you3432PPyou were3433VBDbe to3434TOto lose3435VVlose this3436DTthis case3437NNcase ?3438SENT? If3439INif you3440PPyou win3441VVPwin in3442INin the3443DTthe situation3444NNsituation where3445WRBwhere the3446DTthe attorney3447NNattorney thinks3448VVZthink there3449EXthere 's3450VBZbe no3451DTno non-frivolous3452JJnon-frivolous claim3453NNclaim to3454TOto be3455VBbe raised3456VVNraise on3457INon appeal3458NNappeal ,3459,, after3460INafter the3461DTthe plea3462NNplea waiver3463NNwaiver ,3464,, the3465DTthe attorney3466NNattorney ,3467,, you3468PPyou say3469VVPsay ,3470,, will3471MDwill file3472VVfile an3473DTan Anders3474NPAnders brief3475NNbrief ,3476,, right3477RBright ?3478SENT? [MR. ALI]3479LOC[MR. ALI] That3480DTthat 's3481VBZbe right3482JJright .3483SENT. So3484RBso ...3485:... so3486RBso ...3487:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3488LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Okay3489NPOkay .3490SENT. That's3491NPThat's ...3492:... that3493WDTthat 's3494VBZbe one3495CDone side3496NNside of3497INof it3498PPit .3499SENT. And3500CCand then3501RBthen the3502DTthe other3503JJother side3504NNside ,3505,, if3506INif you3507PPyou were3508VBDbe to3509TOto lose3510VVlose ,3511,, then3512RBthen the3513DTthe defendant3514NNdefendant would3515MDwould not3516RBnot be3517VBbe entirely3518RBentirely precluded3519VVNpreclude from3520INfrom trying3521VVGtry to3522TOto take3523VVtake an3524DTan appeal3525NNappeal with3526INwith respect3527NNrespect to3528TOto issues3529NNSissue that3530IN/thatthat the3531DTthe defendant3532NNdefendant thinks3533NNSthink are3534VBPbe outside3535JJoutside of3536INof the3537DTthe plea3538NNplea waiver3539NNwaiver ,3540,, the3541DTthe defendant3542NNdefendant could3543MDcould bring3544VVbring a3545DTa collateral3546NNcollateral proceeding3547NNproceeding and3548CCand argue3549VVPargue that3550IN/thatthat his3551PP$his attorney3552NNattorney was3553VBDbe ineffective3554JJineffective for3555INfor failing3556VVGfail to3557TOto take3558VVtake an3559DTan appeal3560NNappeal based3561VVNbase on3562INon a3563DTa plea3564NNplea waiver3565NNwaiver that3566WDTthat did3567VVDdo n't3568RBn't cover3569VVcover the3570DTthe issue3571NNissue .3572SENT. And3573CCand the3574DTthe only3575JJonly difference3576NNdifference I3577PPI can3578MDcan see3579VVsee depends3580VVZdepend on3581INon state3582NNstate law3583NNlaw ;3584:; namely3585RBnamely ,3586,, whether3587CCwhether ...3588:... and3589CCand maybe3590RBmaybe there3591EXthere are3592VBPbe other3593JJother differences3594NNSdifference and3595CCand you3596PPyou 'll3597MDwill tell3598VVtell me3599PPme if3600INif I3601PPI 'm3602VBPbe overlooking3603VVGoverlook something3604NNsomething ...3605:... whether3606INwhether an3607DTan attorney3608NNattorney will3609MDwill be3610VBbe appointed3611VVNappoint for3612INfor the3613DTthe defendant3614NNdefendant in3615INin the3616DTthe post-conviction3617NNpost-conviction proceeding3618NNproceeding and3619CCand whether3620INwhether there3621EXthere will3622MDwill be3623VBbe a3624DTa more3625RBRmore stringent3626JJstringent standard3627NNstandard of3628INof review3629NNreview .3630SENT. But3631CCbut if3632INif state3633NNstate law3634NNlaw did3635VVDdo n't3636RBn't ...3637:... if3638INif state3639NNstate law3640NNlaw provided3641VVDprovide an3642DTan attorney3643NNattorney and3644CCand did3645VVDdo n't3646RBn't provide3647VVprovide a3648DTa more3649RBRmore stringent3650JJstringent standard3651NNstandard of3652INof review3653NNreview ,3654,, what3655WPwhat is3656VBZbe the3657DTthe practical3658JJpractical difference3659NNdifference ?3660SENT? [MR. ALI]3661LOC[MR. ALI] So3662RBso ,3663,, Your3664PP$your Honor3665NPHonor ,3666,, of3667INof course3668NNcourse ,3669,, percent3670NNpercent of3671INof post-conviction3672NNpost-conviction defendants3673NNSdefendant across3674INacross the3675DTthe country3676NNcountry do3677VVPdo n't3678RBn't get3679VVget counsel3680NNcounsel on3681INon post-conviction3682NNpost-conviction review3683NNreview .3684SENT. But3685CCbut I3686PPI think3687VVPthink that3688IN/thatthat one3689PPone very3690RBvery important3691JJimportant collateral3692NNcollateral consequence3693NNconsequence was3694VBDbe left3695VVNleave out3696RPout ,3697,, in3698INin addition3699NNaddition to3700TOto ...3701:... I3702PPI ...3703:... I3704PPI think3705VVPthink the3706DTthe difference3707NNdifference in3708INin ...3709:... in3710INin burdens3711NNSburden is3712VBZbe a3713DTa significant3714JJsignificant one3715CDone here3716RBhere .3717SENT. We3718PPwe 're3719VBPbe talking3720VVGtalk about3721RBabout not3722RBnot just3723RBjust civil3724JJcivil burdens3725NNSburden ,3726,, but3727CCbut this3728DTthis Court3729NPCourt 's3730POS's well3731RBwell aware3732JJaware of3733INof the3734DTthe added3735JJadded hurdles3736NNShurdle that3737WDTthat goes3738VVZgo along3739RPalong with3740INwith habeas3741NNShabea proceedings3742NNSproceeding that3743IN/thatthat a3744DTa defendant3745NNdefendant would3746MDwould now3747RBnow have3748VHhave to3749TOto go3750VVgo through3751RPthrough ,3752,, not3753RBnot because3754INbecause he3755PPhe made3756VVDmake any3757DTany mistake3758NNmistake ,3759,, but3760CCbut because3761INbecause his3762PP$his agent3763NNagent failed3764VVDfail to3765TOto undertake3766VVundertake a3767DTa ministerial3768JJministerial task3769NNtask .3770SENT. But3771CCbut ,3772,, sorry3773RBsorry ,3774,, to3775TOto get3776VVget to3777TOto the3778DTthe other3779JJother very3780JJvery significant3781JJsignificant consequence3782NNconsequence ,3783,, the3784DTthe failure3785NNfailure to3786TOto preserve3787VVpreserve issues3788NNSissue in3789INin ...3790:... before3791INbefore a3792DTa conviction3793NNconviction becomes3794VVZbecome final3795JJfinal by3796INby raising3797VVGraise them3798PPthem on3799INon direct3800JJdirect appeal3801NNappeal can3802MDcan forever3803RBforever prevent3804VVprevent a3805DTa defendant3806NNdefendant from3807INfrom raising3808VVGraise those3809DTthose issues3810NNSissue collaterally3811RBcollaterally .3812SENT. So3813RBso ,3814,, in3815INin the3816DTthe federal3817JJfederal system3818NNsystem ,3819,, as3820INas this3821DTthis Court3822NPCourt decided3823VVDdecide in3824INin Bousley3825NPBousley ,3826,, to3827TOto raise3828VVraise a3829DTa voluntariness3830NNvoluntariness claim3831NNclaim in3832INin a3833DTa 22553834CD@card@ position3835NNposition ,3836,, you3837PPyou have3838VHPhave to3839TOto have3840VHhave first3841RBfirst asserted3842VVDassert that3843IN/thatthat on3844INon direct3845JJdirect appeal3846NNappeal .3847SENT. So3848RBso ,3849,, I3850PPI mean3851VVPmean ,3852,, to3853TOto make3854VVmake a3855DTa very3856RBvery blunt3857JJblunt example3858NNexample ,3859,, if3860INif a3861DTa defendant3862NNdefendant believes3863VVZbelieve he3864PPhe has3865VHZhave evidence3866NNevidence that3867IN/thatthat he3868PPhe could3869MDcould introduce3870VVintroduce on3871INon habeas3872NNShabea to3873TOto show3874VVshow involuntariness3875NNinvoluntariness ,3876,, okay3877RBokay ,3878,, to3879TOto show3880VVshow that3881IN/thatthat his3882PP$his counsel3883NNcounsel misled3884VVDmislead him3885PPhim ,3886,, et3887CCet cetera3888NPcetera ,3889,, outside3890JJoutside of3891INof the3892DTthe direct3893JJdirect appeal3894NNappeal record3895NNrecord ,3896,, if3897INif he3898PPhe does3899VVZdo n't3900RBn't get3901VVget the3902DTthe direct3903JJdirect appeal3904NNappeal in3905INin order3906NNorder to3907TOto preserve3908VVpreserve that3909DTthat issue3910NNissue ,3911,, he3912PPhe will3913MDwill be3914VBbe prevented3915VVNprevent ,3916,, unless3917INunless he3918PPhe can3919MDcan prove3920VVprove actual3921JJactual innocence3922NNinnocence ...3923:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3924LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well3925UHwell ,3926,, I3927PPI guess3928VVPguess what3929WPwhat I3930PPI left3931VVDleave out3932RPout is3933VBZbe that3934IN/thatthat the3935DTthe issue3936NNissue ...3937:... the3938DTthe claim3939NNclaim in3940INin the3941DTthe ...3942:... in3943INin the3944DTthe collateral3945NNcollateral proceeding3946NNproceeding would3947MDwould be3948VBbe ineffective3949JJineffective assistance3950NNassistance of3951INof counsel3952NNcounsel .3953SENT. [MR. ALI]3954LOC[MR. ALI] Well3955UHWell ,3956,, so3957RBso then3958RBthen we3959PPwe 're3960VBPbe attaching3961VVGattach an3962DTan additional3963JJadditional burden3964NNburden .3965SENT. Just3966RBjust for3967INfor him3968PPhim to3969TOto assert3970VVassert his3971PP$his ...3972:... his3973PP$his ...3974:... his3975PP$his involuntariness3976NNinvoluntariness claim3977NNclaim ,3978,, he3979PPhe 's3980VBZbe now3981RBnow going3982VVGgo to3983TOto have3984VHhave to3985TOto show3986VVshow that3987IN/thatthat it3988PPit would3989MDwould have3990VHhave been3991VBNbe ...3992:... I3993PPI take3994VVPtake it3995PPit to3996TOto ...3997:... you3998PPyou to3999TOto be4000VBbe saying4001VVGsay that4002IN/thatthat he4003PPhe could4004MDcould assert4005VVassert that4006IN/thatthat it4007PPit was4008VBDbe ineffective4009JJineffective not4010RBnot to4011TOto raise4012VVraise involuntariness4013NNinvoluntariness in4014INin the4015DTthe direct4016JJdirect appeal4017NNappeal .4018SENT. So4019RBso now4020RBnow he4021PPhe has4022VHZhave to4023TOto show4024VVshow that4025IN/thatthat it4026PPit was4027VBDbe unreasonable4028JJunreasonable for4029INfor counsel4030NNcounsel not4031RBnot to4032TOto file4033VVfile it4034PPit in4035INin the4036DTthe direct4037JJdirect appeal4038NNappeal ,4039,, and4040CCand then4041RBthen it4042PPit would4043MDwould have4044VHhave prejudiced4045VVNprejudice him4046PPhim ,4047,, and4048CCand we4049PPwe suddenly4050RBsuddenly are4051VBPbe back4052RBback to4053TOto getting4054VVGget to4055TOto the4056DTthe ...4057:... all4058DTall of4059INof the4060DTthe merits4061NNSmerit ,4062,, all4063DTall of4064INof what4065WPwhat should4066MDshould have4067VHhave happened4068VVNhappen in4069INin the4070DTthe direct4071JJdirect appeal4072NNappeal in4073INin the4074DTthe first4075JJfirst instance4076NNinstance ,4077,, and4078CCand should4079MDshould n't4080RBn't have4081VHhave prevented4082VVNprevent the4083DTthe defendant4084NNdefendant from4085INfrom simply4086RBsimply arguing4087VVGargue these4088DTthese issues4089NNSissue in4090INin his4091PP$his post-conviction4092NNpost-conviction petition4093NNpetition without4094INwithout having4095VHGhave procedurally4096RBprocedurally defaulted4097VVNdefault it4098PPit simply4099RBsimply because4100INbecause his4101PP$his state-appointed4102JJstate-appointed counsel4103NNcounsel ,4104,, his4105PP$his agent4106NNagent ,4107,, did4108VVDdo n't4109RBn't undertake4110VVundertake a4111DTa ministerial4112JJministerial task4113NNtask .4114SENT. And4115CCand ...4116:... and4117CCand ...4118:... and4119CCand that4120WDTthat is4121VBZbe ...4122:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4123LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] I4124PPI would4125MDwould like4126VVlike to4127TOto understand4128VVunderstand better4129RBRwell what4130WPwhat happens4131VVZhappen ,4132,, what4133WPwhat are4134VBPbe the4135DTthe ...4136:... so4137RBso the4138DTthe ...4139:... so4140RBso the4141DTthe attorney4142NNattorney is4143VBZbe obliged4144VVNoblige to4145TOto file4146VVfile the4147DTthe notice4148NNnotice of4149INof appeal4150NNappeal .4151SENT. Then4152RBthen ,4153,, as4154INas you4155PPyou said4156VVDsay ,4157,, in4158INin most4159JJSmost states4160NNSstate ,4161,, there4162EXthere is4163VBZbe no4164DTno right4165NNright to4166TOto an4167DTan attorney4168NNattorney on4169INon appeal4170NNappeal .4171SENT. So4172RBso that4173DTthat 's4174VBZbe it4175PPit .4176SENT. The4177DTthe attorney4178NNattorney files4179VVZfile the4180DTthe notice4181NNnotice of4182INof appeal4183NNappeal ,4184,, and4185CCand then4186RBthen the4187DTthe defendant4188NNdefendant is4189VBZbe just4190RBjust left4191VVNleave there4192RBthere unrepresented4193JJunrepresented ?4194SENT? [MR. ALI]4195LOC[MR. ALI] Oh4196NPOh ,4197,, I'm4198NPI'm ...4199:... I4200PPI 'm4201VBPbe sorry4202JJsorry ,4203,, no4204RBno ,4205,, Your4206PP$your Honor4207NPHonor .4208SENT. An4209DTan attorney4210NNattorney has4211VHZhave a4212DTa constitutional4213JJconstitutional right4214NNright to4215TOto counsel4216NNcounsel on4217INon direct4218JJdirect appeal4219NNappeal .4220SENT. In4221INin virtually4222RBvirtually all4223DTall instances4224NNSinstance ,4225,, when4226WRBwhen he4227PPhe 's4228VBZbe sent4229VVNsend to4230TOto post-conviction4231NNpost-conviction by4232INby virtue4233NNvirtue of4234INof his4235PP$his counsel4236NNcounsel 's4237POS's failure4238NNfailure to4239TOto notice4240VVnotice the4241DTthe appeal4242NNappeal ,4243,, he4244PPhe will4245MDwill not4246RBnot have4247VHhave counsel4248NNcounsel .4249SENT. So4250RBso that4251DTthat 's4252VBZbe very4253RBvery much4254RBmuch a4255DTa direct4256JJdirect consequence4257NNconsequence of4258INof not4259RBnot filing4260VVGfile the4261DTthe appeal4262NNappeal .4263SENT. If4264INif ,4265,, as4266INas we4267PPwe think4268VVPthink the4269DTthe Court4270NPCourt should4271MDshould ,4272,, the4273DTthe ...4274:... the4275DTthe ...4276:... the4277DTthe bargain4278NNbargain struck4279VVDstrike by4280INby the4281DTthe parties4282NNSparty here4283RBhere is4284VBZbe restored4285VVNrestore and4286CCand Mr4287NPMr .4288SENT. Garza4289NPGarza 's4290POS's appeal4291NNappeal is4292VBZbe reinstated4293VVNreinstate ,4294,, he4295PPhe will4296MDwill be4297VBbe appointed4298VVNappoint counsel4299NNcounsel under4300INunder state4301NNstate law4302NNlaw and4303CCand as4304RBas is4305VBZbe required4306VVNrequire by4307INby the4308DTthe federal4309JJfederal constitution4310NNconstitution ,4311,, and4312CCand counsel4313NNcounsel will4314MDwill put4315VVput forward4316JJforward arguments4317NNSargument .4318SENT. And4319CCand we4320PPwe think4321VVPthink in4322INin this4323DTthis record4324NNrecord that4325IN/thatthat there4326EXthere are4327VBPbe ...4328:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4329LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But4330CCbut you4331PPyou ...4332:... you4333PPyou want4334VVPwant to4335TOto ...4336:... this4337DTthis is4338VBZbe a4339DTa question4340NNquestion I4341PPI started4342VVDstart out4343RPout with4344INwith .4345SENT. You4346PPyou want4347VVPwant to4348TOto reinstate4349VVreinstate his4350PP$his right4351NNright to4352TOto appeal4353VVappeal and4354CCand you4355PPyou still4356RBstill ...4357:... it4358PPit 's4359VBZbe still4360RBstill not4361RBnot clear4362JJclear to4363TOto me4364PPme what4365WPwhat remains4366VVZremain of4367INof the4368DTthe plea4369NNplea bargain4370NNbargain .4371SENT. [MR. ALI]4372LOC[MR. ALI] So4373RBso ...4374:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4375LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Because4376INbecause if4377INif ...4378:... if4379INif he4380PPhe had4381VHDhave a4382DTa right4383NNright to4384TOto appeal4385VVappeal ,4386,, he4387PPhe would4388MDwould not4389RBnot have4390VHhave had4391VHNhave a4392DTa ...4393:... a4394DTa plea4395NNplea bargain4396NNbargain that4397WDTthat says4398VVZsay I4399PPI 'm4400VBPbe not4401RBnot going4402VVGgo to4403TOto appeal4404VVappeal .4405SENT. [MR. ALI]4406LOC[MR. ALI] So4407RBso ,4408,, Your4409PP$your Honor4410NPHonor ,4411,, when4412WRBwhen Mr4413NPMr .4414SENT. Garza4415NPGarza signed4416VVDsign this4417DTthis plea4418NNplea bargain4419NNbargain with4420INwith the4421DTthe State4422NPState of4423INof Idaho4424NPIdaho ,4425,, all4426RBall ...4427:... both4428CCboth parties4429NNSparty understood4430VVDunderstand that4431IN/thatthat Mr4432NPMr .4433SENT. Garza4434NPGarza was4435VBDbe waiving4436VVGwaive his4437PP$his right4438NNright to4439TOto raise4440VVraise certain4441JJcertain issues4442NNSissue ,4443,, you4444PPyou know4445VVPknow ,4446,, a4447DTa scope4448NNscope defined4449VVNdefine by4450INby the4451DTthe language4452NNlanguage in4453INin the4454DTthe plea4455NNplea waiver4456NNwaiver ...4457:... the4458DTthe appeal4459NNappeal waiver4460NNwaiver ,4461,, but4462CCbut was4463VBDbe ...4464:... could4465MDcould still4466RBstill raise4467VVraise several4468JJseveral issues4469NNSissue which4470WDTwhich my4471PP$my friends4472NNSfriend do4473VVPdo not4474RBnot contest4475VVcontest he4476PPhe can4477MDcan raise4478VVraise on4479INon direct4480JJdirect appeal4481NNappeal .4482SENT. So4483RBso he4484PPhe would4485MDwould notice4486VVnotice the4487DTthe appeal4488NNappeal .4489SENT. He4490PPhe would4491MDwould still4492RBstill be4493VBbe bound4494VVNbind by4495INby the4496DTthe terms4497NNSterm of4498INof his4499PP$his plea4500NNplea bargain4501NNbargain ,4502,, meaning4503VVGmean the4504DTthe appeal4505NNappeal waiver4506NNwaiver would4507MDwould still4508RBstill apply4509VVapply in4510INin that4511DTthat appellate4512JJappellate proceeding4513NNproceeding ,4514,, but4515CCbut he4516PPhe can4517MDcan still4518RBstill raise4519VVraise ,4520,, of4521INof course4522NNcourse ,4523,, any4524DTany claim4525NNclaim outside4526INoutside the4527DTthe scope4528NNscope of4529INof the4530DTthe waiver4531NNwaiver ,4532,, and4533CCand that4534WDTthat would4535MDwould be4536VBbe a4537DTa determination4538NNdetermination for4539INfor the4540DTthe court4541NNcourt with4542INwith the4543DTthe assistance4544NNassistance of4545INof appellate4546JJappellate counsel4547NNcounsel .4548SENT. And4549CCand he4550PPhe can4551MDcan challenge4552VVchallenge ,4553,, for4554INfor instance4555NNinstance ,4556,, the4557DTthe voluntariness4558NNvoluntariness of4559INof it4560PPit ,4561,, whether4562INwhether the4563DTthe government4564NNgovernment honored4565VVDhonor its4566PP$its ...4567:... its4568PP$its commitments4569NNScommitment under4570INunder the4571DTthe plea4572NNplea agreement4573NNagreement .4574SENT. All4575DTall of4576INof those4577DTthose are4578VBPbe issues4579NNSissue that4580IN/thatthat Idaho4581NPIdaho ,4582,, all4583PDTall the4584DTthe federal4585JJfederal courts4586NNScourt conclude4587VVPconclude can4588MDcan be4589VBbe raised4590VVNraise in4591INin a4592DTa direct4593JJdirect appeal4594NNappeal proceeding4595NNproceeding ,4596,, even4597RBeven when4598WRBwhen you4599PPyou have4600VHPhave signed4601VVNsign an4602DTan appeal4603NNappeal waiver4604NNwaiver .4605SENT. His4606PP$his ...4607:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4608LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Because4609INbecause the4610DTthe appeal4611NNappeal would4612MDwould ...4613:... an4614DTan appeal4615NNappeal waiver4616NNwaiver never4617RBnever precludes4618VVZpreclude any4619DTany and4620CCand all4621DTall possible4622JJpossible appeals4623NNSappeal ?4624SENT? [MR. ALI]4625LOC[MR. ALI] That4626DTthat is4627VBZbe what4628WPwhat is4629VBZbe undisputed4630JJundisputed on4631INon this4632DTthis record4633NNrecord .4634SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4635LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Right4636NPRight .4637SENT. [MR. ALI]4638LOC[MR. ALI] And4639CCand that4640DTthat ...4641:... that4642DTthat ...4643:... that4644WDTthat 's4645VBZbe what4646WPwhat the4647DTthe federal4648JJfederal courts4649NNScourt have4650VHPhave concluded4651VVNconclude ,4652,, that4653IN/thatthat they4654PPthey 're4655VBPbe not4656RBnot categorical4657JJcategorical .4658SENT. And4659CCand ...4660:... and4661CCand I4662PPI think4663VVPthink it4664PPit 's4665VBZbe important4666JJimportant to4667TOto recognize4668VVrecognize that4669DTthat ...4670:... to4671TOto ...4672:... to4673TOto think4674VVthink about4675RBabout how4676WRBhow unrecognizable4677JJunrecognizable the4678DTthe conception4679NNconception of4680INof trial4681NNtrial counsel4682NNcounsel we4683PPwe 're4684VBPbe dealing4685VVGdeal with4686INwith when4687WRBwhen we4688PPwe apply4689VVPapply the4690DTthe United4691NPUnited States4692NPSStates or4693CCor the4694DTthe State4695NPState 's4696POS's test4697NNtest here4698RBhere .4699SENT. Essentially4700RBessentially ,4701,, what4702WPwhat their4703PP$their tests4704NNStest would4705MDwould have4706VHhave trial4707NNtrial counsel4708NNcounsel do4709VVdo is4710VBZbe listen4711VVlisten to4712TOto the4713DTthe words4714NNSword of4715INof the4716DTthe client4717NNclient and4718CCand determine4719VVdetermine whether4720INwhether the4721DTthe words4722NNSword were4723VBDbe the4724DTthe right4725JJright words4726NNSword to4727TOto be4728VBbe outside4729INoutside the4730DTthe scope4731NNscope of4732INof the4733DTthe waiver4734NNwaiver ,4735,, and4736CCand give4737VVgive up4738RPup that4739DTthat client4740NNclient 's4741POS's best4742JJSgood chance4743NNchance ,4744,, simply4745RBsimply because4746INbecause during4747INduring the4748DTthe notice4749NNnotice of4750INof appeal4751NNappeal window4752NNwindow ,4753,, trial4754NNtrial counsel4755NNcounsel can4756MDcan 't4757RB't come4758VVcome up4759RPup with4760INwith an4761DTan issue4762NNissue or4763CCor does4764VVZdo n't4765RBn't think4766VVthink the4767DTthe client4768NNclient said4769VVDsay the4770DTthe right4771JJright things4772NNSthing ,4773,, give4774VVgive up4775RPup his4776PP$his best4777JJSgood chance4778NNchance of4779INof proving4780VVGprove his4781PP$his conviction4782NNconviction unlawful4783JJunlawful ...4784:... is4785VBZbe unlawful4786JJunlawful ,4787,, which4788WDTwhich is4789VBZbe the4790DTthe implication4791NNimplication of4792INof him4793PPhim having4794VHGhave instructed4795VVNinstruct trial4796NNtrial counsel4797NNcounsel to4798TOto notice4799VVnotice the4800DTthe appeal4801NNappeal .4802SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4803LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could4804MDcould ...4805:... could4806MDcould I4807PPI ...4808:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4809LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr4810NPMr ...4811:... .4812SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]4813LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...4814:... get4815VVget your4816PP$your take4817NNtake on4818INon the4819DTthe question4820NNquestion of4821INof when4822WRBwhen you4823PPyou 're4824VBPbe in4825INin breach4826NNbreach .4827SENT. You4828PPyou said4829VVDsay you4830PPyou 're4831VBPbe not4832RBnot in4833INin breach4834VVbreach when4835WRBwhen the4836DTthe notice4837NNnotice of4838INof appeal4839NNappeal is4840VBZbe filed4841VVNfile .4842SENT. And4843CCand is4844VBZbe that4845RBthat true4846JJtrue no4847DTno matter4848NNmatter what4849WPwhat the4850DTthe notice4851NNnotice of4852INof appeal4853NNappeal says4854VVZsay ?4855SENT? In4856INin other4857JJother words4858NNSword ,4859,, suppose4860VVPsuppose the4861DTthe notice4862NNnotice of4863INof appeal4864NNappeal is4865VBZbe an4866DTan opportunity4867NNopportunity to4868TOto lay4869VVlay out4870RPout your4871PP$your claims4872NNSclaim and4873CCand you4874PPyou lay4875VVDlie out4876RPout claims4877NNSclaim that4878WDTthat are4879VBPbe within4880INwithin the4881DTthe waiver4882NNwaiver .4883SENT. Does4884VVZdo that4885IN/thatthat still4886RBstill ,4887,, in4888INin your4889PP$your view4890NNview ,4891,, not4892RBnot breach4893VVbreach the4894DTthe agreement4895NNagreement ?4896SENT? [MR. ALI]4897LOC[MR. ALI] Yes4898NPYes ,4899,, I4900PPI think4901VVPthink so4902RBso ,4903,, Your4904PP$your Honor4905NPHonor ,4906,, because4907RBbecause ,4908,, in4909INin Idaho4910NPIdaho ,4911,, for4912INfor instance4913NNinstance ,4914,, the4915DTthe rules4916NNSrule are4917VBPbe very4918RBvery clear4919JJclear that4920IN/thatthat even4921RBeven with4922INwith respect4923NNrespect to4924TOto the4925DTthe issues4926NNSissue you4927PPyou specify4928VVPspecify ...4929:... and4930CCand generally4931RBgenerally speaking4932VVGspeak ,4933,, in4934INin federal4935JJfederal court4936NNcourt ,4937,, we4938PPwe 're4939VBPbe talking4940VVGtalk about4941INabout identifying4942VVGidentify the4943DTthe order4944NNorder you4945PPyou 're4946VBPbe appealing4947VVGappeal from4948INfrom .4949SENT. Parties4950NNSparty are4951VBPbe n't4952RBn't required4953VVNrequire to4954TOto specify4955VVspecify issues4956NNSissue .4957SENT. In4958INin Idaho4959NPIdaho ,4960,, insofar4961RBinsofar as4962INas you4963PPyou specify4964VVspecify issues4965NNSissue ,4966,, it4967PPit 's4968VBZbe very4969RBvery clear4970JJclear that4971IN/thatthat you4972PPyou 're4973VBPbe not4974RBnot bound4975VVNbind once4976INonce the4977DTthe appeal4978NNappeal is4979VBZbe begun4980VVNbegin .4981SENT. So4982INso the4983DTthe way4984NNway that4985WDTthat would4986MDwould play4987VVplay out4988RPout is4989VBZbe that4990IN/thatthat a4991DTa notice4992NNnotice of4993INof appeal4994NNappeal would4995MDwould be4996VBbe filed4997VVNfile .4998SENT. There4999EXthere would5000MDwould n't5001RBn't be5002VBbe a5003DTa strong5004JJstrong claim5005NNclaim of5006INof breach5007NNbreach then5008RBthen because5009RBbecause ,5010,, as5011INas all5012DTall agree5013VVPagree ,5014,, there5015EXthere are5016VBPbe claims5017NNSclaim that5018WDTthat could5019MDcould be5020VBbe raised5021VVNraise which5022WDTwhich would5023MDwould not5024RBnot be5025VBbe breached5026VVNbreach ...5027:... breached5028VVDbreach even5029RBeven if5030INif they5031PPthey were5032VBDbe resolved5033VVNresolve on5034INon the5035DTthe merits5036NNSmerit ,5037,, and5038CCand the5039DTthe government5040NNgovernment would5041MDwould move5042VVmove to5043TOto dismiss5044VVdismiss the5045DTthe claim5046NNclaim with5047INwith the5048DTthe expedient5049JJexpedient procedures5050NNSprocedure that5051WDTthat are5052VBPbe available5053JJavailable in5054INin Idaho5055NPIdaho and5056CCand federal5057JJfederal courts5058NNScourt .5059SENT. And5060CCand if5061INif ,5062,, at5063INat that5064DTthat point5065NNpoint ,5066,, no5067DTno particular5068JJparticular issue5069NNissue can5070MDcan be5071VBbe raised5072VVNraise that5073WDTthat 's5074VBZbe outside5075INoutside the5076DTthe scope5077NNscope of5078INof the5079DTthe waiver5080NNwaiver ,5081,, what5082WPwhat happens5083VVZhappen in5084INin some5085DTsome of5086INof these5087DTthese cases5088NNScase is5089VBZbe the5090DTthe defendant5091NNdefendant just5092RBjust decides5093VVZdecide to5094TOto dismiss5095VVdismiss the5096DTthe appeal5097NNappeal altogether5098RBaltogether .5099SENT. So5100INso no5101DTno harm5102NNharm done5103VVNdo .5104SENT. But5105CCbut ,5106,, if5107INif the5108DTthe only5109JJonly issues5110NNSissue the5111DTthe defendant5112NNdefendant can5113MDcan identify5114VVidentify are5115VBPbe within5116INwithin the5117DTthe scope5118NNscope of5119INof the5120DTthe waiver5121NNwaiver ,5122,, you5123PPyou 've5124VHPhave got5125VVNget a5126DTa claim5127NNclaim of5128INof breach5129NNbreach .5130SENT. And5131CCand ...5132:... and5133CCand the5134DTthe next5135JJnext question5136NNquestion would5137MDwould be5138VBbe whether5139INwhether it5140PPit 's5141VBZbe ...5142:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]5143LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] In5144INin ...5145:... in5146INin other5147JJother words5148NNSword ,5149,, if5150INif ...5151:... if5152INif there5153EXthere 's5154VBZbe ...5155:... if5156INif the5157DTthe defendant5158NNdefendant files5159VVZfile a5160DTa brief5161NNbrief that5162WDTthat raises5163VVZraise issues5164NNSissue within5165INwithin the5166DTthe scope5167NNscope of5168INof the5169DTthe waiver5170NNwaiver ?5171SENT? [MR. ALI]5172LOC[MR. ALI] That5173DTthat 's5174VBZbe right5175JJright .5176SENT. And5177CCand that5178WDTthat would5179MDwould be5180VBbe determined5181VVNdetermine by5182INby the5183DTthe court5184NNcourt of5185INof appeals5186NNSappeal ,5187,, whether5188INwhether it5189PPit 's5190VBZbe within5191INwithin the5192DTthe scope5193NNscope of5194INof the5195DTthe waiver5196NNwaiver .5197SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]5198LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] And5199CCand how5200WRBhow about5201RBabout if5202INif there5203EXthere 's5204VBZbe an5205DTan Anders5206NPAnders brief5207NNbrief that5208WDTthat ...5209:... that5210WDTthat raises5211VVZraise issues5212NNSissue within5213INwithin the5214DTthe scope5215NNscope of5216INof the5217DTthe waiver5218NNwaiver ?5219SENT? Does5220VVZdo that5221DTthat breach5222NNbreach the5223DTthe defendant5224NNdefendant 's5225POS's bargain5226NNbargain ?5227SENT? [MR. ALI]5228LOC[MR. ALI] Well5229UHWell ,5230,, the5231DTthe way5232NNway that5233IN/thatthat Anders5234NPAnders plays5235VVZplay out5236RBout is5237VBZbe that5238IN/thatthat counsel5239NNcounsel is5240VBZbe required5241VVNrequire to5242TOto ...5243:... to5244TOto file5245VVfile a5246DTa brief5247NNbrief ,5248,, as5249RBas ...5250:... as5251INas I5252PPI think5253VVPthink Your5254PP$your Honor5255NPHonor 's5256POS's question5257NNquestion is5258VBZbe suggesting5259VVGsuggest ,5260,, and5261CCand ...5262:... and5263CCand the5264DTthe pro5265FWpro se5266FWse litigant5267NNlitigant is5268VBZbe also5269RBalso given5270VVNgive an5271DTan opportunity5272NNopportunity to5273TOto file5274VVfile a5275DTa brief5276NNbrief under5277INunder Anders5278NPAnders .5279SENT. And5280CCand those5281DTthose are5282VBPbe reviewed5283VVNreview by5284INby the5285DTthe court5286NNcourt .5287SENT. You5288PPyou know5289VVPknow ,5290,, I5291PPI think5292VVPthink it5293PPit 's5294VBZbe ...5295:... if5296INif ...5297:... if5298INif the5299DTthe pro5300FWpro se5301FWse litigant5302JJlitigant himself5303PPhimself in5304INin his5305PP$his brief5306NNbrief is5307VBZbe asserting5308VVGassert claims5309NNSclaim that5310WDTthat are5311VBPbe in5312INin the5313DTthe scope5314NNscope of5315INof the5316DTthe waiver5317NNwaiver ,5318,, I5319PPI think5320VVPthink there5321EXthere would5322MDwould be5323VBbe a5324DTa strong5325JJstrong claim5326NNclaim of5327INof breach5328NNbreach in5329INin that5330DTthat instance5331NNinstance .5332SENT. If5333INif counsel5334NNcounsel is5335VBZbe not5336RBnot actually5337RBactually pressing5338VVGpress claims5339NNSclaim within5340INwithin the5341DTthe scope5342NNscope of5343INof the5344DTthe waiver5345NNwaiver ,5346,, and5347CCand ...5348:... and5349CCand the5350DTthe government5351NNgovernment 's5352VBZbe generally5353RBgenerally not5354RBnot required5355VVNrequire to5356TOto respond5357VVrespond to5358TOto Anders5359NPAnders briefs5360NNSbrief ,5361,, right5362RBright ,5363,, so5364RBso it5365PPit 's5366VBZbe the5367DTthe attorney5368NNattorney raising5369VVGraise issues5370NNSissue that5371WDTthat are5372VBPbe pointing5373VVGpoint the5374DTthe court5375NNcourt in5376INin a5377DTa very5378RBvery important5379JJimportant way5380NNway to5381TOto potential5382JJpotential issues5383NNSissue in5384INin the5385DTthe case5386NNcase but5387CCbut is5388VBZbe n't5389RBn't actually5390RBactually asserting5391VVGassert issues5392NNSissue ,5393,, I5394PPI do5395VVPdo n't5396RBn't think5397VVthink that5398WDTthat would5399MDwould be5400VBbe a5401DTa breach5402NNbreach .5403SENT. I5404PPI ...5405:... I5406PPI do5407VVPdo n't5408RBn't think5409VVthink our5410PP$our position5411NNposition turns5412VVZturn one5413CDone way5414NNway or5415CCor the5416DTthe other5417JJother on5418INon that5419DTthat position5420NNposition .5421SENT. But5422CCbut ...5423:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5424LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Counsel5425NPCounsel ...5426:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5427LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Are5428VBPbe you5429PPyou ...5430:... I5431PPI 'm5432VBPbe sorry5433JJsorry .5434SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5435LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] No5436UHNo ,5437,, please5438UHplease ,5439,, go5440VVgo ahead5441RBahead .5442SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5443LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Are5444NPAre ...5445:... are5446VBPbe ...5447:... just5448RBjust to5449TOto go5450VVgo through5451INthrough this5452DTthis ,5453,, are5454VBPbe you5455PPyou aware5456JJaware of5457INof whether5458INwhether the5459DTthe federal5460JJfederal system5461NNsystem or5462CCor state5463NNstate system5464NNsystem would5465MDwould deny5466VVdeny a5467DTa defendant5468NNdefendant another5469DTanother attorney5470NNattorney if5471INif ,5472,, under5473INunder Flores-Ortega5474NPFlores-Ortega ,5475,, it5476PPit 's5477VBZbe found5478VVNfind that5479IN/thatthat an5480DTan attorney5481NNattorney was5482VBDbe directed5483VVNdirect to5484TOto file5485VVfile an5486DTan appeal5487NNappeal ,5488,, did5489VVDdo n't5490RBn't do5491VVdo it5492PPit ;5493:; hence5494RBhence ,5495,, he5496PPhe was5497VBDbe ineffective5498JJineffective under5499INunder Flores-Ortega5500NPFlores-Ortega ?5501SENT? When5502WRBwhen the5503DTthe defendant5504NNdefendant went5505VVDgo back5506RBback down5507RBdown ,5508,, would5509MDwould he5510PPhe or5511CCor would5512MDwould he5513PPhe not5514RBnot get5515VVPget another5516DTanother attorney5517NNattorney ?5518SENT? [MR. ALI]5519LOC[MR. ALI] I5520PPI think5521VVPthink he5522PPhe probably5523RBprobably would5524MDwould .5525SENT. In5526INin this5527DTthis case5528NNcase ,5529,, factually5530RBfactually speaking5531VVGspeak ,5532,, he5533PPhe ...5534:... he5535PPhe would5536MDwould because5537RBbecause ,5538,, on5539INon appeal5540NNappeal ,5541,, Idaho5542NPIdaho provides5543VVZprovide that5544IN/thatthat the5545DTthe state5546NNstate appellate5547JJappellate defender5548NNdefender comes5549VVZcome in5550INin .5551SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5552LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I5553PPI ...5554:... I5555PPI 'm5556VBPbe just5557RBjust asking5558VVGask because5559INbecause I5560PPI 'm5561VBPbe not5562RBnot aware5563JJaware ,5564,, at5565INat least5566JJSleast from5567INfrom my5568PP$my old5569JJold circuit5570NNcircuit ...5571:... [MR. ALI]5572LOC[MR. ALI] Yeah5573NPYeah .5574SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5575LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...5576:... that5577IN/thatthat we5578PPwe would5579MDwould have5580VHhave not5581RBnot appointed5582VVNappoint a5583DTa new5584JJnew attorney5585NNattorney once5586INonce one5587CDone has5588VHZhave been5589VBNbe found5590VVNfind ineffective5591JJineffective .5592SENT. Now5593RBnow that5594DTthat new5595JJnew attorney5596NNattorney could5597MDcould file5598VVfile an5599DTan Anders5600NPAnders brief5601NNbrief ,5602,, could5603MDcould do5604VVdo anything5605NNanything permissible5606NNpermissible under5607INunder the5608DTthe rules5609NNSrule .5610SENT. But5611CCbut my5612PP$my point5613NNpoint is5614VBZbe I5615PPI do5616VVPdo n't5617RBn't know5618VVknow enough5619RBenough about5620INabout the5621DTthe other5622JJother jurisdictions5623NNSjurisdiction .5624SENT. I5625PPI 'd5626MDwould be5627VBbe sorely5628RBsorely surprised5629VVNsurprise that5630IN/thatthat most5631RBSmost would5632MDwould n't5633RBn't .5634SENT. [MR. ALI]5635LOC[MR. ALI] I5636PPI ...5637:... I5638PPI think5639VVPthink that5640WDTthat 's5641VBZbe right5642JJright .5643SENT. And5644CCand I5645PPI just5646RBjust would5647MDwould add5648VVadd one5649CDone thing5650NNthing ,5651,, which5652WDTwhich is5653VBZbe that5654IN/thatthat these5655DTthese claims5656NNSclaim actually5657RBactually could5658MDcould go5659VVgo very5660RBvery well5661RBwell to5662TOto that5663DTthat attorney5664NNattorney 's5665POS's conduct5666NNconduct ,5667,, the5668DTthe attorney5669NNattorney who5670WPwho is5671VBZbe usurping5672VVGusurp his5673PP$his client5674NNclient 's5675POS's decision5676NNdecision to5677TOto appeal5678VVappeal .5679SENT. So5680RBso ,5681,, if5682INif we5683PPwe 're5684VBPbe talking5685VVGtalk about5686INabout the5687DTthe voluntariness5688NNvoluntariness ,5689,, counsel5690NNcounsel 's5691POS's performance5692NNperformance at5693INat the5694DTthe plea5695NNplea hearing5696NNhearing ,5697,, et5698NPet cetera5699NPcetera ,5700,, could5701MDcould be5702VBbe tied5703VVNtie up5704RPup in5705INin those5706DTthose .5707SENT. And5708CCand that5709DTthat 's5710VBZbe all5711PDTall the5712DTthe more5713JJRmore reason5714NNreason in5715INin this5716DTthis instance5717NNinstance not5718RBnot to5719TOto allow5720VVallow an5721DTan attorney5722NNattorney to5723TOto override5724VVoverride his5725PP$his client5726NNclient 's5727POS's autonomous5728JJautonomous decision5729NNdecision to5730TOto appeal5731VVappeal .5732SENT. And5733CCand if5734INif I5735PPI could5736MDcould ,5737,, Mr5738NPMr .5739SENT. Chief5740NPChief Justice5741NPJustice ...5742:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5743LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Counsel5744NPCounsel ...5745:... if5746INif I5747PPI might5748MDmight .5749SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5750LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Sure5751NPSure .5752SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]5753LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Thank5754VVthank you5755PPyou .5756SENT. One5757CDOne quick5758JJquick question5759NNquestion .5760SENT. You5761PPyou rely5762VVPrely a5763DTa lot5764NNlot on5765INon the5766DTthe autonomy5767NNautonomy of5768INof the5769DTthe client5770NNclient ,5771,, and5772CCand we5773PPwe certainly5774RBcertainly have5775VHPhave a5776DTa lot5777NNlot of5778INof cases5779NNScase saying5780VVGsay ,5781,, you5782PPyou know5783VVPknow ,5784,, a5785DTa decision5786NNdecision whether5787INwhether to5788TOto appeal5789VVappeal or5790CCor make5791VVmake a5792DTa major5793JJmajor decision5794NNdecision like5795INlike that5796WDTthat belong5797VVPbelong to5798TOto the5799DTthe client5800NNclient .5801SENT. Here5802RBhere ,5803,, though5804RBthough ,5805,, we5806PPwe have5807VHPhave a5808DTa complicating5809VVGcomplicate factor5810NNfactor that5811IN/thatthat the5812DTthe autonomy5813NNautonomy 's5814VHZhave already5815RBalready been5816VBNbe expressed5817VVNexpress through5818INthrough the5819DTthe plea5820NNplea waiver5821NNwaiver and5822CCand it5823PPit 's5824VBZbe presumptively5825RBpresumptively correct5826JJcorrect given5827VVNgive that5828IN/thatthat it5829PPit 's5830VBZbe a5831DTa final5832JJfinal judgment5833NNjudgment of5834INof a5835DTa trial5836NNtrial court5837NNcourt at5838INat that5839DTthat moment5840NNmoment at5841INat least5842JJSleast .5843SENT. What5844WPWhat do5845VVPdo we5846PPwe do5847VVPdo about5848RBabout that5849RBthat ?5850SENT? So5851INso autonomy5852NNautonomy runs5853NNSrun both5854CCboth ways5855NNSway here5856RBhere in5857INin this5858DTthis particular5859JJparticular instance5860NNinstance ,5861,, and5862CCand presumed5863JJpresumed prejudice5864NNprejudice in5865INin this5866DTthis circumstance5867NNcircumstance ,5868,, is5869VBZbe there5870RBthere some5871DTsome tension5872NNtension between5873INbetween that5874WDTthat and5875CCand the5876DTthe fact5877NNfact that5878IN/thatthat we5879PPwe do5880VVPdo n't5881RBn't presume5882VVpresume prejudice5883NNprejudice even5884RBeven when5885WRBwhen lawyers5886NNSlawyer make5887VVPmake really5888RBreally bad5889JJbad ,5890,, obviously5891RBobviously wrong5892RBwrong strategic5893JJstrategic ,5894,, tactical5895JJtactical decisions5896NNSdecision in5897INin cases5898NNScase all5899RBall the5900DTthe time5901NNtime ?5902SENT? How5903WRBHow ...5904:... how5905WRBhow do5906VVPdo we5907PPwe reconcile5908VVreconcile that5909IN/thatthat where5910WRBwhere even5911RBeven ...5912:... even5913RBeven in5914INin obvious5915JJobvious circumstances5916NNScircumstance we5917PPwe do5918VVPdo n't5919RBn't presume5920VVpresume prejudice5921NNprejudice ?5922SENT? And5923CCand ,5924,, here5925RBhere ,5926,, most5927JJSmost of5928INof these5929DTthese cases5930NNScase are5931VBPbe going5932VVGgo to5933TOto be5934VBbe non-prejudicial5935JJnon-prejudicial ,5936,, right5937RBright ?5938SENT? So5939RBso what5940WPwhat do5941VVPdo we5942PPwe do5943VVPdo about5944INabout those5945DTthose problems5946NNSproblem ?5947SENT? [MR. ALI]5948LOC[MR. ALI] So5949RBso let5950VVDlet me5951PPme ...5952:... I5953PPI think5954VVPthink there5955EXthere are5956VBPbe two5957CDtwo separate5958JJseparate questions5959NNSquestion there5960RBthere .5961SENT. Let5962VVlet me5963PPme try5964VVtry to5965TOto answer5966VVanswer them5967PPthem .5968SENT. So5969INso the5970DTthe State5971NPState and5972CCand the5973DTthe United5974NPUnited States5975NPSStates make5976VVPmake the5977DTthe first5978JJfirst argument5979NNargument you5980PPyou suggested5981VVDsuggest ,5982,, which5983WDTwhich is5984VBZbe that5985IN/thatthat autonomy5986NNautonomy has5987VHZhave been5988VBNbe exercised5989VVNexercise at5990INat time5991NNtime 15992CD1 when5993WRBwhen the5994DTthe waiver5995NNwaiver of5996INof appeal5997NNappeal is5998VBZbe signed5999VVNsign .6000SENT. Now6001RBnow ,6002,, of6003INof course6004NNcourse ,6005,, one6006PPone can6007MDcan 't6008RB't claim6009NNclaim to6010TOto respect6011VVrespect autonomy6012NNautonomy without6013INwithout looking6014VVGlook at6015INat the6016DTthe actual6017JJactual autonomous6018JJautonomous decision6019NNdecision that6020WDTthat is6021VBZbe made6022VVNmake .6023SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6024LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] But6025CCbut looking6026VVGlook at6027INat it6028PPit as6029INas a6030DTa whole6031NNwhole ,6032,, we've6033NNwe've ...6034:... it6035PPit 's6036VBZbe complicated6037JJcomplicated .6038SENT. It6039PPit 's6040VBZbe muddled6041VVNmuddle ,6042,, right6043RBright ?6044SENT? [MR. ALI]6045LOC[MR. ALI] Well6046UHwell ,6047,, I6048PPI think6049VVPthink ...6050:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6051LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Time6052NPTime 16053CD1 and6054CCand time6055NNtime 26056CD2 are6057VBPbe complicated6058VVNcomplicate .6059SENT. [MR. ALI]6060LOC[MR. ALI] At6061INat time6062NNtime 16063CD1 ,6064,, the6065DTthe autonomous6066JJautonomous decision6067NNdecision is6068VBZbe to6069TOto waive6070VVwaive certain6071JJcertain claims6072NNSclaim .6073SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6074LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Yeah6075NPYeah .6076SENT. [MR. ALI]6077LOC[MR. ALI] At6078INat time6079NNtime 26080CD2 ,6081,, the6082DTthe decision6083NNdecision 46084CD4 is6085VBZbe ...6086:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]6087LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Yeah6088NPYeah .6089SENT. [MR. ALI]6090LOC[MR. ALI] ...6091:... go6092VVgo file6093VVfile a6094DTa notice6095NNnotice of6096INof appeal6097NNappeal because6098INbecause I6099PPI still6100RBstill have6101VHPhave other6102JJother claims6103NNSclaim .6104SENT. And6105CCand to6106TOto answer6107VVanswer the6108DTthe second6109JJsecond point6110NNpoint really6111RBreally quickly6112RBquickly ,6113,, when6114WRBwhen this6115DTthis Court6116NPCourt looks6117VVZlook at6118INat a6119DTa situation6120NNsituation in6121INin which6122WDTwhich a6123DTa proceeding6124NNproceeding has6125VHZhave been6126VBNbe provided6127VVNprovide to6128TOto the6129DTthe defendant6130NNdefendant and6131CCand there6132EXthere are6133VBPbe certain6134JJcertain errors6135NNSerror ,6136,, a6137DTa client6138NNclient 's6139VBZbe not6140RBnot entitled6141VVNentitle ...6142:... or6143CCor a6144DTa defendant6145NNdefendant is6146VBZbe not6147RBnot entitled6148VVNentitle to6149TOto a6150DTa perfect6151JJperfect proceeding6152NNproceeding ,6153,, then6154RBthen ,6155,, yes6156UHyes ,6157,, in6158INin that6159DTthat circumstance6160NNcircumstance ,6161,, to6162TOto presume6163VVpresume prejudice6164NNprejudice ,6165,, you6166PPyou look6167VVPlook for6168INfor those6169DTthose circumstances6170NNScircumstance where6171WRBwhere prejudice6172NNprejudice is6173VBZbe so6174RBso likely6175JJlikely that6176IN/thatthat ,6177,, you6178PPyou know6179VVPknow ,6180,, it6181PPit should6182MDshould be6183VBbe presumed6184VVNpresume .6185SENT. Now6186RBnow the6187DTthe United6188NPUnited States6189NPSStates all6190DTall but6191CCbut concedes6192VVZconcede that6193IN/thatthat that6194DTthat does6195VVZdo n't6196RBn't apply6197VVapply in6198INin this6199DTthis circumstance6200NNcircumstance .6201SENT. If6202INif you6203PPyou look6204VVPlook at6205INat the6206DTthe bottom6207NNbottom of6208INof page6209NNpage 126210CD@card@ ,6211,, top6212JJtop of6213INof page6214NNpage 136215CD@card@ ,6216,, after6217INafter they6218PPthey do6219VVPdo all6220DTall of6221INof the6222DTthe posturing6223NNposturing ,6224,, saying6225VVGsay you6226PPyou should6227MDshould be6228VBbe identifying6229VVGidentify the6230DTthe most6231RBSmost likely6232JJlikely circumstances6233NNScircumstance ,6234,, they6235PPthey say6236VVPsay :6237:: Oh6238UHoh ,6239,, but6240CCbut the6241DTthe Court6242NPCourt has6243VHZhave also6244RBalso recognized6245VVNrecognize that6246IN/thatthat when6247WRBwhen you6248PPyou forfeit6249VVforfeit an6250DTan entire6251JJentire proceeding6252NNproceeding ,6253,, a6254DTa proceeding6255NNproceeding which6256WDTwhich is6257VBZbe a6258DTa contingency6259NNcontingency ...6260:... or6261CCor ...6262:... or6263CCor is6264VBZbe an6265DTan important6266JJimportant part6267NNpart of6268INof reaching6269VVGreach finality6270NNfinality ,6271,, that6272IN/thatthat that6273DTthat 's6274VBZbe not6275RBnot the6276DTthe inquiry6277NNinquiry the6278DTthe court6279NNcourt goes6280VVZgo through6281RPthrough .6282SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6283LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank6284VVthank you6285PPyou ,6286,, counsel6287NNcounsel .6288SENT. Mr6289NPMr .6290SENT. Jorgensen6291NPJorgensen .6292SENT.