[MR. SHANMUGAM]24LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Thank25VVthank you26PPyou ,27,, Mr28NPMr .29SENT. Chief30NPChief Justice31NPJustice ,32,, and33CCand may34MDmay it35PPit please36VVplease the37DTthe Court38NPCourt :39:: The40DTthe Federal41NPFederal Arbitration42NPArbitration Act43NPAct requires44VVZrequire courts45NNScourt to46TOto enforce47VVenforce arbitration48NNarbitration agreements49NNSagreement according50VVGaccord to51TOto their52PP$their terms53NNSterm .54SENT. This55DTthis case56NNcase involves57VVZinvolve a58DTa straightforward59JJstraightforward application60NNapplication of61INof that62DTthat principle63NNprinciple in64INin the65DTthe context66NNcontext of67INof arbitrability68NNarbitrability ,69,, specifically70RBspecifically where71WRBwhere the72DTthe parties73NNSparty have74VHPhave agreed75VVNagree to76TOto delegate77VVdelegate to78TOto the79DTthe arbitrator80NNarbitrator the81DTthe authority82NNauthority to83TOto decide84VVdecide whether85INwhether claims86NNSclaim are87VBPbe subject88JJsubject to89TOto arbitration90NNarbitration .91SENT. Where92WRBwhere the93DTthe parties94NNSparty have95VHPhave so96RBso agreed97VVNagree ,98,, the99DTthe Arbitration100NPArbitration Act101NPAct requires102VVZrequire a103DTa court104NNcourt to105TOto honor106VVhonor that107DTthat agreement108NNagreement .109SENT. A110DTa court111NNcourt does112VVZdo not113RBnot have114VHhave the115DTthe power116NNpower to117TOto decide118VVdecide the119DTthe issue120NNissue of121INof arbitrability122NNarbitrability for123INfor itself124PPitself and125CCand to126TOto short-circuit127VVshort-circuit the128DTthe arbitrator129NNarbitrator 's130POS's ability131NNability to132TOto do133VVdo so134RBso .135SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]136LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Mr137NPMr .138SENT. Shanmugam139NPShanmugam ,140,, can141MDcan we142PPwe back143VVback up144RBup and145CCand have146VHhave you147PPyou explain148VVexplain why149WRBwhy we150PPwe even151RBeven get152VVPget to153TOto a154DTa question155NNquestion ,156,, the157DTthe question158NNquestion presented159VVDpresent ,160,, because161INbecause Schein162NPSchein has163VHZhave no164DTno arbitration165NNarbitration agreement166NNagreement with167INwith Archer168NPArcher ,169,, so170RBso how171WRBhow ...172:... what173WPwhat is174VBZbe this175DTthis agreement176NNagreement ?177SENT? It178PPit 's179VBZbe not180RBnot between181INbetween Archer182NPArcher and183CCand Schein184NPSchein .185SENT. How186WRBHow does187VVZdo Schein188NPSchein get189VVget to190TOto claim191VVclaim the192DTthe benefit193NNbenefit of194INof an195DTan agreement196NNagreement Schein197NPSchein did198VVDdo not199RBnot make200VVmake ?201SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]202LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Justice203NPJustice Ginsburg204NPGinsburg ,205,, there206EXthere is207VBZbe a208DTa question209NNquestion in210INin the211DTthe case212NNcase concerning213VVGconcern non-parties214NNSnon-parties .215SENT. The216DTthe agreements217NNSagreement in218INin question219NNquestion are220VBPbe agreements221NNSagreement with222INwith some223DTsome of224INof the225DTthe defendants226NNSdefendant ,227,, not228RBnot all229RBall of230INof them231PPthem .232SENT. And233CCand so234RBso ,235,, therefore236RBtherefore ,237,, as238RBas to239TOto the240DTthe non-signatory241JJnon-signatory defendants242NNSdefendant ,243,, there244EXthere is245VBZbe a246DTa question247NNquestion reserved248VVNreserve by249INby the250DTthe court251NNcourt of252INof appeals253NNSappeal about254INabout the255DTthe doctrine256NNdoctrine of257INof equitable258JJequitable estoppel259NNestoppel ,260,, and261CCand that262WDTthat would263MDwould be264VBbe an265DTan issue266NNissue for267INfor the268DTthe court269NNcourt of270INof appeals271NNSappeal to272TOto address273VVaddress on274INon remand275NNremand if276INif this277DTthis Court278NPCourt agrees279VVZagree with280INwith us281PPus on282INon the283DTthe question284NNquestion presented285VVDpresent .286SENT. That287DTthat is288VBZbe obviously289RBobviously a290DTa discrete291JJdiscrete issue292NNissue ,293,, not294RBnot reached295VVNreach by296INby the297DTthe court298NNcourt of299INof appeals300NNSappeal in301INin the302DTthe decision303NNdecision below304RBbelow ,305,, and306CCand ,307,, again308RBagain ,309,, an310DTan issue311NNissue that312WDTthat would313MDwould be314VBbe open315JJopen on316INon remand317NNremand .318SENT. But319CCbut ,320,, on321INon the322DTthe question323NNquestion presented324VVDpresent ,325,, I326PPI think327VVPthink our328PP$our submission329NNsubmission is330VBZbe quite331RBquite straightforward332JJstraightforward .333SENT. The334DTthe "335``" wholly336RBwholly groundless337JJgroundless "338''" exception339NNexception on340INon which341WDTwhich the342DTthe court343NNcourt of344INof appeals345NNSappeal relied346VVDrely has347VHZhave no348DTno footing349NNfooting in350INin the351DTthe text352NNtext of353INof the354DTthe Arbitration355NPArbitration Act356NPAct .357SENT. Where358WRBwhere the359DTthe parties360NNSparty have361VHPhave agreed362VVNagree to363TOto delegate364VVdelegate the365DTthe issue366NNissue of367INof arbitrability368NNarbitrability to369TOto the370DTthe arbitrator371NNarbitrator ,372,, the373DTthe merits374NNSmerit of375INof that376DTthat issue377NNissue are378VBPbe for379INfor the380DTthe arbitrator381NNarbitrator and382CCand wholly383RBwholly for384INfor the385DTthe arbitrator386NNarbitrator to387TOto decide388VVdecide .389SENT. Sections390NNSsection 2391CD2 ,392,, 3393CD3 ,394,, and395CCand 4396CD4 of397INof the398DTthe Arbitration399NPArbitration Act400NPAct all401DTall point402NNpoint in403INin the404DTthe same405JJsame direction406NNdirection :407:: Where408WRBwhere you409PPyou have410VHPhave a411DTa valid412JJvalid delegation413NNdelegation ,414,, that415WDTthat is416VBZbe treated417VVNtreat ,418,, as419INas this420DTthis Court421NPCourt has422VHZhave indicated423VVNindicate ,424,, like425INlike an426DTan antecedent427JJantecedent agreement428NNagreement to429TOto arbitrate430VVarbitrate ,431,, and432CCand all433RBall there434EXthere is435VBZbe for436INfor a437DTa court438NNcourt to439TOto do440VVdo is441VBZbe to442TOto determine443VVdetermine ,444,, first445RBfirst ,446,, that447IN/thatthat that448DTthat provision449NNprovision is450VBZbe itself451PPitself valid452JJvalid and453CCand ,454,, second455RBsecond ,456,, to457TOto determine458VVdetermine whether459INwhether the460DTthe opposing461JJopposing party462NNparty is463VBZbe ,464,, in465INin fact466NNfact ,467,, resisting468VVGresist the469DTthe enforcement470NNenforcement of471INof that472DTthat provision473NNprovision .474SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]475LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] How476WRBHow do477VVPdo we478PPwe take479VVtake this480DTthis ...481:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]482LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] I483PPI 'm484VBPbe not485RBnot sure486RBsure your487PP$your answer488NNanswer to489TOto Justice490NPJustice Ginsburg491NPGinsburg is492VBZbe totally493RBtotally responsive494JJresponsive .495SENT. The496DTthe ...497:... the498DTthe question499NNquestion of500INof whether501INwhether or502CCor not503RBnot there504EXthere is505VBZbe a506DTa valid507JJvalid arbitration508NNarbitration agreement509NNagreement between510INbetween the511DTthe parties512NNSparty is513VBZbe antecedent514JJantecedent to515TOto an516DTan order517NNorder compelling518JJcompelling arbitration519NNarbitration .520SENT. The521DTthe court522NNcourt makes523VVZmake that524DTthat decision525NNdecision .526SENT. And527CCand I528PPI wonder529VVPwonder why530WRBwhy this531DTthis is532VBZbe n't533RBn't a534DTa ...535:... a536DTa similar537JJsimilar question538NNquestion .539SENT. I540PPI mean541VVPmean ,542,, your543PP$your friend544NNfriend on545INon the546DTthe other547JJother side548NNside makes549VVZmake the550DTthe argument551NNargument that552IN/thatthat ,553,, well554RBwell ,555,, parties556NNSparty would557MDwould not558RBnot have559VHhave agreed560VVNagree to561TOto submit562VVsubmit wholly563RBwholly groundless564JJgroundless questions565NNSquestion to566TOto the567DTthe arbitrator568NNarbitrator .569SENT. And570CCand so571RBso you572PPyou should573MDshould seek574VVseek ...575:... treat576VVtreat it577PPit as578INas the579DTthe same580JJsame type581NNtype of582INof question583NNquestion .584SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]585LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] So586RBso ,587,, Mr588NPMr .589SENT. Chief590NPChief Justice591NPJustice ,592,, I593PPI think594VVPthink there595EXthere are596VBPbe two597CDtwo parts598NNSpart to599TOto your600PP$your question601NNquestion .602SENT. First603RBfirst ,604,, to605TOto pick606VVpick up607RPup on608INon my609PP$my response610NNresponse to611TOto Justice612NPJustice Ginsburg613NPGinsburg ,614,, we615PPwe are616VBPbe certainly617RBcertainly not618RBnot disputing619VVGdispute that620IN/thatthat the621DTthe issue622NNissue of623INof equitable624JJequitable estoppel625NNestoppel ,626,, the627DTthe issue628NNissue of629INof which630WDTwhich parties631NNSparty are632VBPbe bound633VVNbind ,634,, is635VBZbe an636DTan issue637NNissue that638WDTthat goes639VVZgo to640TOto validity641NNvalidity .642SENT. It643PPit 's644VBZbe an645DTan issue646NNissue for647INfor the648DTthe court649NNcourt to650TOto decide651VVdecide .652SENT. So653RBso ,654,, again655RBagain ,656,, on657INon remand658NNremand ,659,, that660WDTthat would661MDwould be662VBbe a663DTa question664NNquestion for665INfor the666DTthe court667NNcourt of668INof appeals669NNSappeal in670INin the671DTthe first672JJfirst instance673NNinstance .674SENT. The675DTthe court676NNcourt of677INof appeals678NNSappeal explicitly679RBexplicitly did680VVDdo not681RBnot reach682VVreach that683DTthat question684NNquestion because685INbecause of686INof its687PP$its holding688NNholding on689INon the690DTthe "691``" wholly692RBwholly groundless693JJgroundless "694''" exception695NNexception .696SENT. It697PPit said698VVDsay that699IN/thatthat the700DTthe ...701:... a702DTa ...703:... a704DTa requirement705NNrequirement that706IN/thatthat arbitrability707NNarbitrability goes708VVZgo to709TOto the710DTthe arbitrator711NNarbitrator was712VBDbe not713RBnot enforceable714JJenforceable as715RBas to716TOto anyone717NNanyone ,718,, even719RBeven as720INas to721TOto the722DTthe signatories723NNSsignatory to724TOto the725DTthe agreement726NNagreement .727SENT. I728PPI think729VVPthink ,730,, as731RBas to732TOto the733DTthe second734JJsecond part735NNpart of736INof your737PP$your question738NNquestion ,739,, again740RBagain ,741,, we742PPwe think743VVPthink that744IN/thatthat the745DTthe question746NNquestion of747INof whether748INwhether or749CCor not750RBnot there751EXthere is752VBZbe a753DTa valid754JJvalid agreement755NNagreement more756RBRmore generally757RBgenerally is758VBZbe a759DTa question760NNquestion for761INfor the762DTthe court763NNcourt .764SENT. And765CCand so766RBso ,767,, if768INif ,769,, for770INfor instance771NNinstance ,772,, there773EXthere were774VBDbe some775DTsome question776NNquestion about777INabout the778DTthe validity779NNvalidity of780INof the781DTthe delegation782NNdelegation provision783NNprovision ,784,, say785VVPsay a786DTa question787NNquestion about788RBabout whether789INwhether the790DTthe delegation791NNdelegation provision792NNprovision is793VBZbe itself794PPitself unconscionable795JJunconscionable ,796,, that797WDTthat would798MDwould again799RBagain be800VBbe a801DTa question802NNquestion for803INfor the804DTthe court805NNcourt to806TOto decide807VVdecide .808SENT. But809CCbut I810PPI think811VVPthink that812IN/thatthat ,813,, on814INon the815DTthe issue816NNissue of817INof arbitrability818NNarbitrability ,819,, this820DTthis Court821NPCourt has822VHZhave said823VVNsay time824NNtime and825CCand again826RBagain ,827,, most828RBSmost recently829RBrecently in830INin the831DTthe First832NPFirst Options833NPSOptions case834NNcase ,835,, that836DTthat arbitrability837NNarbitrability can838MDcan be839VBbe delegated840VVNdelegate where841WRBwhere there842EXthere is843VBZbe a844DTa sufficiently845RBsufficiently clear846JJclear delegation847NNdelegation ,848,, and849CCand once850RBonce the851DTthe issue852NNissue is853VBZbe delegated854VVNdelegate ,855,, it856PPit is857VBZbe for858INfor the859DTthe arbitrator860NNarbitrator .861SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]862LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well863UHwell the864DTthe question865NNquestion ...866:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]867LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But868CCbut clear869JJclear ...870:... clear871JJclear and872CCand unmistakable873JJunmistakable delegation874NNdelegation ,875,, why876WRBwhy can877MDcan 't878RB't it879PPit be880VBbe both881DTboth ;882:; that883WDTthat is884VBZbe ,885,, that886IN/thatthat the887DTthe arbitrator888NNarbitrator has889VHZhave this890DTthis authority891NNauthority to892TOto decide893VVdecide questions894NNSquestion of895INof arbitrability896NNarbitrability ,897,, but898CCbut it899PPit is900VBZbe not901RBnot exclusive902JJexclusive of903INof the904DTthe court905NNcourt ?906SENT? We907PPwe have908VHPhave one909CDone brief910NNbrief saying911VVGsay that912IN/thatthat that913DTthat is914VBZbe indeed915RBindeed the916DTthe position917NNposition that918IN/thatthat the919DTthe Restatement920NNrestatement has921VHZhave taken922VVNtake .923SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]924LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] So925INso all926DTall of927INof the928DTthe courts929NNScourt of930INof appeals931NNSappeal to932TOto have933VHhave considered934VVNconsider the935DTthe issue936NNissue have937VHPhave held938VVNhold that939IN/thatthat this940DTthis type941NNtype of942INof incorporated943JJincorporated delegation944NNdelegation meets945VVZmeet this946DTthis Court947NPCourt 's948POS's requirements949NNSrequirement ,950,, and951CCand let952VVlet me953PPme explain954VVexplain why955WRBwhy that956DTthat 's957VBZbe true958JJtrue ,959,, even960RBeven though961RBthough ,962,, again963RBagain ,964,, that965WDTthat 's966VBZbe an967DTan issue968NNissue outside969INoutside the970DTthe scope971NNscope of972INof the973DTthe question974NNquestion presented975VVDpresent .976SENT. We977PPwe certainly978RBcertainly think979VVPthink it980PPit would981MDwould be982VBbe appropriate983JJappropriate for984INfor this985DTthis Court986NPCourt to987TOto provide988VVprovide guidance989NNguidance on990INon that991DTthat issue992NNissue ,993,, but994CCbut the995DTthe Court996NPCourt certainly997RBcertainly does998VVZdo not999RBnot have1000VHhave to1001TOto reach1002VVreach it1003PPit if1004INif it1005PPit so1006RBso chooses1007VVZchoose .1008SENT. What1009WPWhat is1010VBZbe going1011VVGgo on1012INon in1013INin this1014DTthis case1015NNcase ,1016,, if1017INif you1018PPyou look1019VVPlook at1020INat the1021DTthe four1022CDfour corners1023NNScorner of1024INof the1025DTthe delegation1026NNdelegation ...1027:... of1028INof ...1029:... of1030INof the1031DTthe arbitration1032NNarbitration agreement1033NNagreement ...1034:... and1035CCand I1036PPI would1037MDwould point1038VVpoint the1039DTthe Court1040NNcourt in1041INin particular1042JJparticular to1043TOto page1044VVpage 581045CD@card@ of1046INof the1047DTthe Joint1048NPJoint Appendix1049NPAppendix or1050CCor to1051TOto page1052VVpage 81053CD8 of1054INof our1055PP$our brief1056NNbrief ...1057:... is1058VBZbe that1059IN/thatthat the1060DTthe arbitration1061NNarbitration agreement1062NNagreement by1063INby its1064PP$its terms1065NNSterm incorporates1066VVZincorporate the1067DTthe rules1068NNSrule of1069INof the1070DTthe American1071NPAmerican Arbitration1072NPArbitration Association1073NPAssociation and1074CCand it1075PPit does1076VVZdo so1077RBso very1078RBvery clearly1079RBclearly .1080SENT. That1081DTthat is1082VBZbe a1083DTa quite1084RBquite common1085JJcommon arrangement1086NNarrangement ,1087,, particularly1088RBparticularly in1089INin commercial1090JJcommercial arbitrations1091NNSarbitration like1092INlike the1093DTthe one1094CDone at1095INat issue1096NNissue here1097RBhere .1098SENT. Then1099RBthen ,1100,, if1101INif you1102PPyou take1103VVPtake a1104DTa look1105NNlook at1106INat the1107DTthe rules1108NNSrule of1109INof the1110DTthe American1111NPAmerican Arbitration1112NPArbitration Association1113NPAssociation ,1114,, those1115DTthose rules1116NNSrule ,1117,, and1118CCand ,1119,, in1120INin particular1121JJparticular ,1122,, Rule1123NPRule 71124CD7 (1125(( a1126DTa )1127)) ,1128,, clearly1129RBclearly give1130VVgive the1131DTthe arbitrator1132NNarbitrator the1133DTthe authority1134NNauthority to1135TOto decide1136VVdecide arbitrability1137NNarbitrability .1138SENT. And1139CCand under1140INunder this1141DTthis Court1142NPCourt 's1143POS's decision1144NNdecision in1145INin First1146NPFirst Options1147NPSOptions ,1148,, the1149DTthe relevant1150JJrelevant inquiry1151NNinquiry is1152VBZbe whether1153INwhether or1154CCor not1155RBnot the1156DTthe parties1157NNSparty were1158VBDbe willing1159JJwilling to1160TOto be1161VBbe bound1162VVNbind by1163INby the1164DTthe arbitrator1165NNarbitrator 's1166POS's determination1167NNdetermination on1168INon the1169DTthe issue1170NNissue in1171INin question1172NNquestion .1173SENT. And1174CCand so1175RBso ,1176,, with1177INwith all1178DTall due1179JJdue respect1180NNrespect to1181TOto Professor1182NPProfessor Bermann1183NPBermann in1184INin his1185PP$his amicus1186NNamicus brief1187NNbrief ,1188,, the1189DTthe position1190NNposition that1191IN/thatthat he1192PPhe propounds1193VVZpropound has1194VHZhave been1195VBNbe rejected1196VVNreject by1197INby every1198DTevery court1199NNcourt of1200INof appeals1201NNSappeal to1202TOto have1203VHhave considered1204VVNconsider this1205DTthis issue1206NNissue .1207SENT. And1208CCand if1209INif the1210DTthe Court1211NPCourt has1212VHZhave any1213DTany interest1214NNinterest in1215INin this1216DTthis issue1217NNissue ,1218,, I1219PPI would1220MDwould refer1221VVrefer the1222DTthe Court1223NNcourt to1224TOto the1225DTthe very1226RBvery thoughtful1227JJthoughtful opinion1228NNopinion of1229INof the1230DTthe Tenth1231JJtenth Circuit1232NNcircuit in1233INin the1234DTthe Belnap1235NPBelnap case1236NNcase ,1237,, which1238WDTwhich discusses1239VVZdiscuss this1240DTthis issue1241NNissue in1242INin some1243DTsome detail1244NNdetail .1245SENT. Again1246RBagain ,1247,, the1248DTthe Fifth1249NPFifth Circuit1250NPCircuit ,1251,, in1252INin the1253DTthe decision1254NNdecision under1255INunder review1256NNreview ,1257,, ultimately1258RBultimately did1259VVDdo not1260RBnot decide1261VVdecide that1262DTthat question1263NNquestion .1264SENT. It1265PPit did1266VVDdo discuss1267VVdiscuss that1268DTthat question1269NNquestion ,1270,, and1271CCand I1272PPI would1273MDwould respectfully1274RBrespectfully submit1275VVsubmit that1276IN/thatthat its1277PP$its discussion1278NNdiscussion on1279INon that1280DTthat issue1281NNissue was1282VBDbe somewhat1283RBsomewhat confused1284VVNconfuse .1285SENT. The1286DTthe Fifth1287NPFifth Circuit1288NPCircuit seemed1289VVDseem to1290TOto think1291VVthink that1292IN/thatthat because1293INbecause there1294EXthere was1295VBDbe a1296DTa substantive1297JJsubstantive carve-out1298JJcarve-out from1299INfrom the1300DTthe scope1301NNscope of1302INof arbitration1303NNarbitration here1304RBhere ,1305,, that1306WDTthat 's1307VBZbe the1308DTthe very1309RBvery carve-out1310JJcarve-out that1311WDTthat 's1312VBZbe in1313INin dispute1314NNdispute for1315INfor actions1316NNSaction for1317INfor injunctive1318JJinjunctive relief1319NNrelief ,1320,, that1321IN/thatthat that1322DTthat ...1323:... that1324WDTthat somehow1325RBsomehow had1326VHDhave a1327DTa bearing1328NNbearing on1329INon the1330DTthe validity1331NNvalidity of1332INof the1333DTthe delegation1334NNdelegation here1335RBhere .1336SENT. But1337CCbut I1338PPI think1339VVPthink with1340INwith all1341DTall due1342JJdue respect1343NNrespect ...1344:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]1345LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But1346CCbut the1347DTthe district1348NNdistrict court1349NNcourt ...1350:... the1351DTthe district1352NNdistrict court1353NNcourt made1354VVNmake ...1355:... decided1356VVNdecide on1357INon alternative1358JJalternative grounds1359NNSground ,1360,, and1361CCand was1362VBDbe n't1363RBn't the1364DTthe district1365NNdistrict court1366NNcourt 's1367POS's first1368JJfirst decision1369NNdecision that1370IN/thatthat this1371DTthis contract1372NNcontract did1373VVDdo not1374RBnot have1375VHhave a1376DTa sufficiently1377RBsufficiently clear1378JJclear and1379CCand unmistakable1380JJunmistakable delegation1381NNdelegation ?1382SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]1383LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Yes1384NPYes ,1385,, that1386WDTthat is1387VBZbe correct1388JJcorrect .1389SENT. And1390CCand the1391DTthe Fifth1392NPFifth Circuit1393NPCircuit then1394RBthen discussed1395VVDdiscuss the1396DTthe issue1397NNissue but1398CCbut ultimately1399RBultimately did1400VVDdo not1401RBnot rest1402VVrest on1403INon it1404PPit .1405SENT. And1406CCand once1407RBonce again1408RBagain ,1409,, this1410DTthis is1411VBZbe a1412DTa discrete1413JJdiscrete question1414NNquestion .1415SENT. It1416PPit 's1417VBZbe outside1418INoutside the1419DTthe scope1420NNscope of1421INof the1422DTthe question1423NNquestion presented1424VVDpresent .1425SENT. But1426CCbut I1427PPI would1428MDwould respectfully1429RBrespectfully submit1430VVsubmit that1431IN/thatthat I1432PPI think1433VVPthink that1434IN/thatthat the1435DTthe law1436NNlaw on1437INon this1438DTthis issue1439NNissue is1440VBZbe quite1441RBquite clear1442JJclear and1443CCand that1444IN/thatthat ,1445,, in1446INin particular1447JJparticular ,1448,, to1449TOto the1450DTthe extent1451NNextent that1452IN/thatthat the1453DTthe district1454NNdistrict court1455NNcourt discussed1456VVDdiscuss this1457DTthis issue1458NNissue ,1459,, Justice1460NPJustice Ginsburg1461NPGinsburg ,1462,, its1463PP$its reliance1464NNreliance and1465CCand Respondent1466NNrespondent 's1467POS's reliance1468NNreliance on1469INon the1470DTthe substantive1471JJsubstantive carve-out1472JJcarve-out cannot1473MDcan be1474VBbe correct1475JJcorrect .1476SENT. In1477INin other1478JJother words1479NNSword ,1480,, the1481DTthe Respondent1482NNrespondent 's1483POS's submission1484NNsubmission below1485RBbelow ,1486,, and1487CCand really1488RBreally ,1489,, I1490PPI think1491VVPthink ,1492,, Respondent1493NNrespondent 's1494POS's only1495JJonly submission1496NNsubmission on1497INon this1498DTthis issue1499NNissue was1500VBDbe that1501IN/thatthat because1502INbecause there1503EXthere is1504VBZbe a1505DTa carve-out1506JJcarve-out from1507INfrom the1508DTthe scope1509NNscope of1510INof arbitration1511NNarbitration ,1512,, that1513WDTthat somehow1514RBsomehow defeats1515VVZdefeat the1516DTthe incorporation1517NNincorporation of1518INof the1519DTthe AAA1520NPAAA rules1521NNSrule ,1522,, which1523WDTwhich provide1524VVPprovide that1525DTthat arbitrability1526NNarbitrability can1527MDcan be1528VBbe decided1529VVNdecide by1530INby the1531DTthe arbitrator1532NNarbitrator .1533SENT. But1534CCbut that1535DTthat is1536VBZbe the1537DTthe very1538JJvery issue1539NNissue that1540IN/thatthat the1541DTthe parties1542NNSparty agreed1543VVDagree for1544INfor the1545DTthe arbitrator1546NNarbitrator to1547TOto decide1548VVdecide .1549SENT. And1550CCand I1551PPI think1552VVPthink it1553PPit would1554MDwould improperly1555RBimproperly conflate1556VVconflate the1557DTthe question1558NNquestion of1559INof what1560WPwhat is1561VBZbe subject1562JJsubject to1563TOto arbitration1564NNarbitration ...1565:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1566LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Could1567MDcould I1568PPI ...1569:... could1570MDcould 91571CD9 I1572PPI ...1573:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]1574LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...1575:... with1576INwith the1577DTthe question1578NNquestion of1579INof who1580WPwho decides1581VVZdecide to1582TOto say1583VVsay that1584IN/thatthat that1585DTthat defeats1586NNSdefeat arbitrability1587NNarbitrability here1588RBhere .1589SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1590LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] You1591PPyou just1592RBjust said1593VVDsay the1594DTthe parties1595NNSparty agreed1596VVDagree to1597TOto have1598VHhave the1599DTthe arbitrator1600NNarbitrator decide1601VVdecide this1602DTthis issue1603NNissue .1604SENT. Assume1605VVassume the1606DTthe Douglas1607NPDouglas ...1608:... facts1609NNSfact of1610INof the1611DTthe Douglas1612NPDouglas case1613NNcase .1614SENT. Plaintiff1615NNplaintiff ,1616,, or1617CCor Petitioner1618NNpetitioner ,1619,, signed1620VVDsign a1621DTa arbitration1622NNarbitration agreement1623NNagreement over1624INover an1625DTan account1626NNaccount and1627CCand the1628DTthe account1629NNaccount was1630VBDbe closed1631VVNclose within1632INwithin a1633DTa year1634NNyear ,1635,, and1636CCand years1637NNSyear later1638RBRlater sues1639VVZsue the1640DTthe bank1641NNbank for1642INfor ...1643:... for1644INfor some1645DTsome malfeasance1646NNmalfeasance by1647INby a1648DTa ...1649:... a1650DTa lawyer1651NNlawyer who1652WPwho took1653VVDtake money1654NNmoney from1655INfrom a1656DTa different1657JJdifferent account1658NNaccount or1659CCor something1660NNsomething like1661INlike it1662PPit .1663SENT. I1664PPI think1665VVPthink I1666PPI 'm1667VBPbe getting1668VVGget the1669DTthe facts1670NNSfact of1671INof Douglas1672NPDouglas .1673SENT. And1674CCand the1675DTthe court1676NNcourt ...1677:... and1678CCand the1679DTthe arbitrator1680NNarbitrator there1681RBthere improperly1682RBimproperly assumes1683VVZassume jurisdiction1684NNjurisdiction .1685SENT. There1686EXthere 's1687VHZhave been1688VBNbe a1689DTa delegation1690NNdelegation .1691SENT. What1692WPWhat are1693VBPbe the1694DTthe ...1695:... what1696WPwhat are1697VBPbe the1698DTthe potential1699JJpotential outs1700NNSout for1701INfor the1702DTthe party1703NNparty who1704WPwho 's1705VHZhave now1706RBnow been1707VBNbe stuck1708VVNstick in1709INin an1710DTan arbitration1711NNarbitration that1712WDTthat legally1713RBlegally is1714VBZbe wholly1715RBwholly groundless1716JJgroundless ?1717SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]1718LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Sure1719NPSure .1720SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1721LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] The1722DTthe arbitrator1723NNarbitrator made1724VVDmake a1725DTa mistake1726NNmistake .1727SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]1728LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] So1729RBso ,1730,, Justice1731NPJustice Sotomayor1732NPSotomayor ,1733,, let1734VVDlet me1735PPme address1736VVaddress ,1737,, you1738PPyou know1739VVPknow ,1740,, both1741CCboth that1742IN/thatthat and1743CCand the1744DTthe related1745JJrelated question1746NNquestion of1747INof what1748WPwhat remedies1749NNSremedy are1750VBPbe available1751JJavailable to1752TOto the1753DTthe arbitrator1754NNarbitrator and1755CCand ...1756:... and1757CCand to1758TOto the1759DTthe opposing1760VVGoppose party1761NNparty more1762RBRmore generally1763RBgenerally in1764INin the1765DTthe event1766NNevent that1767IN/thatthat a1768DTa truly1769RBtruly frivolous1770JJfrivolous claim1771NNclaim of1772INof arbitrability1773NNarbitrability is1774VBZbe raised1775VVNraise .1776SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1777LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Exactly1778RBexactly .1779SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]1780LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] I1781PPI think1782VVPthink ,1783,, to1784TOto address1785VVaddress your1786PP$your question1787NNquestion directly1788RBdirectly first1789JJfirst ,1790,, I1791PPI think1792VVPthink in1793INin a1794DTa case1795NNcase where1796WRBwhere an1797DTan arbitrator1798NNarbitrator reaches1799VVZreach an1800DTan improper1801JJimproper conclusion1802NNconclusion on1803INon arbitrability1804NNarbitrability ,1805,, the1806DTthe remedies1807NNSremedy ,1808,, if1809INif any1810DTany ,1811,, would1812MDwould be1813VBbe those1814DTthose provided1815VVNprovide for1816INfor review1817NNreview of1818INof arbitral1819JJarbitral decisions1820NNSdecision more1821RBRmore generally1822RBgenerally .1823SENT. And1824CCand as1825INas this1826DTthis Court1827NPCourt is1828VBZbe well1829RBwell aware1830JJaware ,1831,, there1832EXthere is1833VBZbe a1834DTa very1835RBvery live1836JJlive dispute1837NNdispute in1838INin the1839DTthe lower1840JJRlow courts1841NNScourt about1842INabout the1843DTthe extent1844NNextent to1845TOto which1846WDTwhich courts1847NNScourt can1848MDcan review1849VVreview the1850DTthe merits1851NNSmerit of1852INof arbitrators1853NNSarbitrator '1854POS' decisions1855NNSdecision and1856CCand whether1857INwhether they1858PPthey can1859MDcan be1860VBbe reviewed1861VVNreview for1862INfor a1863DTa ...1864:... a1865DTa ...1866:... manifest1867JJmanifest disregard1868NNdisregard .1869SENT. That1870DTthat is1871VBZbe an1872DTan issue1873NNissue that1874IN/thatthat this1875DTthis Court1876NPCourt has1877VHZhave left1878VVNleave open1879RPopen .1880SENT. But1881CCbut I1882PPI think1883VVPthink that1884IN/thatthat that1885WDTthat would1886MDwould potentially1887RBpotentially be1888VBbe available1889JJavailable .1890SENT. And1891CCand lower1892JJRlow courts1893NNScourt have1894VHPhave said1895VVNsay that1896IN/thatthat that1897DTthat is1898VBZbe available1899JJavailable where1900WRBwhere an1901DTan arbitrator1902NNarbitrator reaches1903VVZreach a1904DTa wildly1905RBwildly incorrect1906JJincorrect decision1907NNdecision on1908INon arbitrability1909NNarbitrability .1910SENT. I1911PPI think1912VVPthink that1913IN/thatthat ,1914,, to1915TOto the1916DTthe extent1917NNextent that1918IN/thatthat the1919DTthe other1920JJother side1921NNside points1922NNSpoint to1923TOto the1924DTthe Douglas1925NPDouglas case1926NNcase as1927INas sort1928NNsort of1929INof the1930DTthe flagship1931JJflagship example1932NNexample of1933INof a1934DTa meritless1935NNmeritless claim1936NNclaim of1937INof arbitrability1938NNarbitrability being1939VBGbe raised1940VVNraise and1941CCand the1942DTthe dangers1943NNSdanger of1944INof getting1945VVGget ...1946:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1947LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Basically1948RBbasically ,1949,, you1950PPyou 're1951VBPbe telling1952VVGtell me1953PPme at1954INat least1955JJSleast on1956INon the1957DTthe express1958JJexpress terms1959NNSterm of1960INof enforcing1961VVGenforce an1962DTan arbitration1963NNarbitration award1964NNaward under1965INunder the1966DTthe statute1967NNstatute ,1968,, there1969EXthere is1970VBZbe no1971DTno remedy1972NNremedy for1973INfor that1974DTthat Douglas1975NPDouglas party1976NNparty ?1977SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]1978LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well1979UHwell ,1980,, there1981EXthere is1982VBZbe potentially1983RBpotentially review1984NNreview ...1985:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1986LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] If1987INif ...1988:... if1989INif ...1990:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]1991LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...1992:... for1993INfor manifest1994JJmanifest disregard1995NNdisregard .1996SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1997LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] If1998INif we1999PPwe ...2000:... if2001INif we2002PPwe accept2003VVPaccept manifest2004JJmanifest disregard2005NNdisregard .2006SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2007LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Yes2008NPYes .2009SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2010LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] We2011PPwe have2012VHPhave n't2013RBn't done2014VVNdo that2015IN/thatthat yet2016RByet .2017SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2018LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Which2019WDTwhich is2020VBZbe to2021TOto say2022VVsay ...2023:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2024LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But2025CCbut there2026EXthere 's2027VBZbe no2028DTno statutory2029JJstatutory provision2030NNprovision under2031INunder the2032DTthe Act2033NPAct ?2034SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]2035LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Which2036WDTwhich is2037VBZbe to2038TOto say2039VVsay that2040IN/thatthat it2041PPit 's2042VBZbe no2043RBno different2044JJdifferent from2045INfrom review2046NNreview where2047WRBwhere an2048DTan arbitrator2049NNarbitrator reaches2050VVZreach a2051DTa wildly2052RBwildly incorrect2053JJincorrect conclusion2054NNconclusion on2055INon the2056DTthe merits2057NNSmerit of2058INof an2059DTan arbitral2060JJarbitral award2061NNaward .2062SENT. In2063INin other2064JJother words2065NNSword ,2066,, arbitrability2067NNarbitrability is2068VBZbe in2069INin the2070DTthe same2071JJsame bucket2072NNbucket as2073INas any2074DTany other2075JJother issue2076NNissue that2077WDTthat is2078VBZbe properly2079RBproperly remitted2080VVNremit to2081TOto the2082DTthe arbitrator2083NNarbitrator .2084SENT. Review2085NNreview ...2086:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2087LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Do2088VVPdo you2089PPyou think2090VVPthink that2091DTthat ...2092:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]2093LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...2094:... if2095INif any2096DTany ,2097,, would2098MDwould be2099VBbe under2100INunder Section2101NPSection 102102CD@card@ of2103INof the2104DTthe Arbitration2105NPArbitration Act2106NPAct .2107SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2108LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Do2109VVPdo you2110PPyou think2111VVPthink that2112IN/thatthat it2113PPit could2114MDcould be2115VBbe the2116DTthe arbitrator2117NNarbitrator exceeding2118VVGexceed their2119PP$their powers2120NNSpower ?2121SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]2122LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well2123UHwell ,2124,, it2125PPit could2126MDcould be2127VBbe .2128SENT. And2129CCand I2130PPI think2131VVPthink that2132IN/thatthat if2133INif you2134PPyou look2135VVPlook at2136INat the2137DTthe lower2138JJRlow courts2139NNScourt that2140WDTthat have2141VHPhave reviewed2142VVNreview arbitrability2143NNarbitrability determinations2144NNSdetermination ,2145,, some2146DTsome of2147INof them2148PPthem have2149VHPhave located2150VVNlocate review2151NNreview in2152INin exceeds2153VVZexceed powers2154NNSpower in2155INin Section2156NPSection 102157CD@card@ (2158(( a2159DTa )2160)) (2161(( 42162LS4 )2163)) ,2164,, though2165RBthough even2166RBeven those2167DTthose courts2168NNScourt have2169VHPhave engaged2170VVNengage in2171INin pretty2172RBpretty deferential2173JJdeferential review2174NNreview .2175SENT. I2176PPI think2177VVPthink ,2178,, as2179INas a2180DTa practical2181JJpractical matter2182NNmatter ,2183,, it2184PPit 's2185VBZbe basically2186RBbasically the2187DTthe same2188JJsame review2189NNreview as2190INas manifest2191JJmanifest disregard2192NNdisregard review2193NNreview ,2194,, and2195CCand it2196PPit certainly2197RBcertainly is2198VBZbe not2199RBnot the2200DTthe sort2201NNsort of2202INof de2203NPde novo2204NPNovo review2205NNreview that2206IN/thatthat Respondent2207NNrespondent seems2208VVZseem to2209TOto contemplate2210VVcontemplate .2211SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2212LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Can2213MDcan ...2214:... can2215MDcan you2216PPyou understand2217VVunderstand the2218DTthe common2219JJcommon sense2220NNsense resistance2221NNresistance to2222TOto the2223DTthe idea2224NNidea that2225IN/thatthat ,2226,, if2227INif a2228DTa party2229NNparty has2230VHZhave not2231RBnot agreed2232VVNagree to2233TOto arbitrate2234VVarbitrate a2235DTa particular2236JJparticular issue2237NNissue because2238INbecause it2239PPit 's2240VBZbe wholly2241RBwholly groundless2242JJgroundless ,2243,, there2244EXthere is2245VBZbe no2246DTno way2247NNway that2248IN/thatthat an2249DTan arbitrator2250NNarbitrator could2251MDcould in2252INin good2253JJgood faith2254NNfaith and2255CCand without2256INwithout error2257NNerror reach2258VVPreach a2259DTa conclusion2260NNconclusion that2261IN/thatthat arbitration2262NNarbitration was2263VBDbe agreed2264VVNagree to2265TOto ?2266SENT? It2267PPit seems2268VVZseem counterintuitive2269JJcounterintuitive to2270TOto believe2271VVbelieve that2272IN/thatthat we2273PPwe 're2274VBPbe sending2275VVGsend a2276DTa party2277NNparty to2278TOto arbitration2279NNarbitration ,2280,, to2281TOto potentially2282RBpotentially go2283VVgo through2284INthrough the2285DTthe expense2286NNexpense of2287INof arbitration2288NNarbitration when2289WRBwhen something2290NNsomething 's2291VBZbe wholly2292RBwholly groundless2293JJgroundless ,2294,, and2295CCand then2296RBthen potentially2297RBpotentially not2298RBnot to2299TOto have2300VHhave an2301DTan avenue2302NNavenue of2303INof relief2304NNrelief when2305WRBwhen it2306PPit comes2307VVZcome to2308TOto enforcing2309VVGenforce the2310DTthe arbitration2311NNarbitration award2312NNaward .2313SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2314LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Justice2315NPJustice Sotomayor2316NPSotomayor ...2317:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]2318LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That2319DTthat 's2320VBZbe why2321WRBwhy ...2322:... I2323PPI 'm2324VBPbe sorry2325JJsorry ...2326:... that2327WDTthat 's2328VBZbe why2329WRBwhy I2330PPI think2331VVPthink one2332PPone of2333INof the2334DTthe amici2335NNamici said2336VVDsay the2337DTthe courts2338NNScourt are2339VBPbe not2340RBnot understanding2341VVGunderstand that2342IN/thatthat ,2343,, at2344INat the2345DTthe core2346NNcore ,2347,, this2348DTthis is2349VBZbe always2350RBalways about2351RBabout have2352VHPhave you2353PPyou agreed2354VVNagree to2355TOto arbitrate2356VVarbitrate an2357DTan issue2358NNissue ?2359SENT? And2360CCand ,2361,, if2362INif you2363PPyou have2364VHPhave n't2365RBn't ,2366,, you2367PPyou should2368MDshould n't2369RBn't be2370VBbe forced2371VVNforce to2372TOto .2373SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2374LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Justice2375NPJustice Sotomayor2376NPSotomayor ,2377,, I2378PPI 'm2379VBPbe sorry2380JJsorry to2381TOto have2382VHhave interrupted2383VVNinterrupt ,2384,, but2385CCbut two2386CDtwo points2387NNSpoint in2388INin response2389NNresponse to2390TOto that2391DTthat .2392SENT. First2393RBfirst ,2394,, I2395PPI think2396VVPthink it2397PPit 's2398VBZbe important2399JJimportant to2400TOto the2401DTthe extent2402NNextent that2403IN/thatthat we2404PPwe 're2405VBPbe talking2406VVGtalk about2407INabout the2408DTthe parties2409NNSparty '2410POS' intent2411NNintent to2412TOto recognize2413VVrecognize that2414IN/thatthat the2415DTthe parties2416NNSparty intended2417VVNintend for2418INfor the2419DTthe arbitrator2420NNarbitrator to2421TOto ...2422:... to2423TOto decide2424VVdecide arbitrability2425NNarbitrability .2426SENT. There2427EXthere was2428VBDbe no2429RBno carve-out2430JJcarve-out ,2431,, explicit2432JJexplicit or2433CCor implicit2434JJimplicit ,2435,, for2436INfor wholly2437RBwholly groundless2438JJgroundless claims2439NNSclaim ,2440,, which2441WDTwhich is2442VBZbe to2443TOto say2444VVsay that2445IN/thatthat where2446WRBwhere ,2447,, as2448INas here2449RBhere ,2450,, you2451PPyou have2452VHPhave a2453DTa dispute2454NNdispute of2455INof this2456DTthis variety2457NNvariety ,2458,, you2459PPyou have2460VHPhave one2461CDone party2462NNparty saying2463VVGsay that2464IN/thatthat the2465DTthe claim2466NNclaim of2467INof arbitrability2468NNarbitrability is2469VBZbe wholly2470RBwholly groundless2471JJgroundless .2472SENT. You2473PPyou have2474VHPhave the2475DTthe other2476JJother party2477NNparty saying2478VVGsay not2479RBnot only2480RBonly is2481VBZbe it2482PPit not2483RBnot wholly2484RBwholly groundless2485JJgroundless ,2486,, we2487PPwe believe2488VVPbelieve we2489PPwe have2490VHPhave a2491DTa valid2492JJvalid argument2493NNargument about2494INabout the2495DTthe construction2496NNconstruction of2497INof the2498DTthe carve-out2499JJcarve-out .2500SENT. The2501DTthe parties2502NNSparty agreed2503VVDagree to2504TOto have2505VHhave the2506DTthe arbitrator2507NNarbitrator be2508VBbe the2509DTthe decision-maker2510NNdecision-maker .2511SENT. And2512CCand I2513PPI do2514VVPdo n't2515RBn't think2516VVthink ,2517,, with2518INwith all2519DTall due2520JJdue respect2521NNrespect to2522TOto Respondent2523NNrespondent ,2524,, who2525WPwho faints2526VVZfaint in2527INin this2528DTthis direction2529NNdirection ,2530,, that2531IN/thatthat there2532EXthere 's2533VBZbe any2534DTany way2535NNway to2536TOto reform2537VVreform the2538DTthe incorporated2539JJincorporated delegation2540NNdelegation here2541RBhere to2542TOto create2543VVcreate a2544DTa carve-out2545JJcarve-out ,2546,, to2547TOto create2548VVcreate a2549DTa carve-out2550JJcarve-out for2551INfor wholly2552RBwholly groundless2553JJgroundless claims2554NNSclaim to2555TOto say2556VVsay that2557IN/thatthat the2558DTthe parties2559NNSparty somehow2560RBsomehow implicitly2561RBimplicitly agreed2562VVDagree that2563IN/thatthat the2564DTthe arbitrator2565NNarbitrator would2566MDwould decide2567VVdecide arbitrability2568NNarbitrability unless2569INunless the2570DTthe claim2571NNclaim was2572VBDbe somehow2573RBsomehow wholly2574RBwholly groundless2575JJgroundless or2576CCor that2577IN/thatthat there2578EXthere would2579MDwould be2580VBbe some2581DTsome preliminary2582JJpreliminary determination2583NNdetermination by2584INby the2585DTthe district2586NNdistrict court2587NNcourt .2588SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2589LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But2590CCbut why2591WRBwhy is2592VBZbe that2593DTthat ...2594:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]2595LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Now2596RBnow I2597PPI do2598VVPdo ...2599:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]2600LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...2601:... Mr2602NPMr .2603SENT. Shanmugam2604NPShanmugam ?2605SENT? I2606PPI mean2607VVPmean ,2608,, if2609INif you2610PPyou look2611VVPlook at2612INat First2613NPFirst Options2614NPSOptions ,2615,, First2616NPFirst Options2617NPSOptions is2618VBZbe a2619DTa case2620NNcase where2621WRBwhere we2622PPwe said2623VVDsay we2624PPwe 're2625VBPbe not2626RBnot going2627VVGgo to2628TOto treat2629VVtreat these2630DTthese delegation2631NNdelegation clauses2632NNSclause in2633INin exactly2634RBexactly the2635DTthe same2636JJsame way2637NNway as2638INas we2639PPwe treat2640VVPtreat other2641JJother clauses2642NNSclause .2643SENT. And2644CCand there2645EXthere was2646VBDbe an2647DTan idea2648NNidea that2649IN/thatthat people2650NNSpeople do2651VVPdo n't2652RBn't really2653RBreally think2654VVthink about2655INabout the2656DTthe question2657NNquestion of2658INof who2659WPwho decides2660VVZdecide ,2661,, and2662CCand so2663RBso we2664PPwe 're2665VBPbe going2666VVGgo to2667TOto hold2668VVhold parties2669NNSparty to2670TOto this2671DTthis higher2672JJRhigh standard2673NNstandard ,2674,, the2675DTthe clear2676JJclear and2677CCand unmistakable2678JJunmistakable intent2679NNintent standard2680NNstandard .2681SENT. And2682CCand would2683MDwould n't2684RBn't the2685DTthe same2686JJsame kind2687NNkind of2688INof argument2689NNargument be2690VBbe true2691JJtrue here2692RBhere ,2693,, that2694IN/thatthat the2695DTthe parties2696NNSparty never2697RBnever really2698RBreally considered2699VVNconsider who2700WPwho was2701VBDbe going2702VVGgo to2703TOto decide2704VVdecide these2705DTthese groundless2706JJgroundless claims2707NNSclaim of2708INof arbitrability2709NNarbitrability ,2710,, or2711CCor maybe2712RBmaybe ,2713,, if2714INif they2715PPthey did2716VVDdo consider2717VVconsider it2718PPit ,2719,, they2720PPthey would2721MDwould have2722VHhave thought2723VVNthink that2724IN/thatthat it2725PPit was2726VBDbe a2727DTa pretty2728RBpretty strange2729JJstrange system2730NNsystem to2731TOto send2732VVsend it2733PPit to2734TOto an2735DTan arbitrator2736NNarbitrator just2737RBjust so2738RBso that2739IN/thatthat the2740DTthe arbitrator2741NNarbitrator could2742MDcould send2743VVsend it2744PPit back2745RBback to2746TOto the2747DTthe court2748NNcourt ?2749SENT? So2750RBso that2751IN/thatthat we2752PPwe are2753VBPbe going2754VVGgo to2755TOto ...2756:... to2757TOto ...2758:... you2759PPyou know2760VVPknow ,2761,, to2762TOto ...2763:... to2764TOto say2765VVsay that2766IN/thatthat there2767EXthere 's2768VBZbe a2769DTa special2770JJspecial rule2771NNrule in2772INin interpreting2773VVGinterpret these2774DTthese kinds2775NNSkind of2776INof clauses2777NNSclause .2778SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2779LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Justice2780NPJustice Kagan2781NPKagan ,2782,, I2783PPI ...2784:... I2785PPI ...2786:... there2787EXthere is2788VBZbe obviously2789RBobviously an2790DTan interpretive2791JJinterpretive rule2792NNrule that2793WDTthat requires2794VVZrequire clear2795JJclear and2796CCand unmistakable2797JJunmistakable evidence2798NNevidence that2799IN/thatthat the2800DTthe parties2801NNSparty intended2802VVNintend to2803TOto delegate2804VVdelegate the2805DTthe issue2806NNissue .2807SENT. But2808CCbut I2809PPI would2810MDwould respectfully2811RBrespectfully submit2812VVsubmit that2813IN/thatthat ,2814,, once2815INonce you2816PPyou have2817VHPhave that2818DTthat evidence2819NNevidence ,2820,, that2821DTthat rule2822NNrule falls2823VVZfall out2824RPout of2825INof the2826DTthe equation2827NNequation .2828SENT. And2829CCand again2830RBagain ,2831,, with2832INwith ...2833:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2834LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Why2835WRBwhy ...2836:... why2837WRBwhy do2838VVPdo you2839PPyou have2840VHPhave the2841DTthe evidence2842NNevidence ?2843SENT? When2844WRBwhen the2845DTthe ...2846:... the2847DTthe ...2848:... the2849DTthe model2850NNmodel case2851NNcase is2852VBZbe this2853DTthis Court2854NPCourt 's2855POS's Rent-a-Car2856NNRent-a-Car decision2857NNdecision ,2858,, and2859CCand there2860RBthere the2861DTthe ...2862:... the2863DTthe clause2864NNclause said2865VVDsay the2866DTthe arbitrator2867NNarbitrator ,2868,, not2869RBnot the2870DTthe court2871NNcourt ,2872,, has2873VHZhave exclusive2874JJexclusive authority2875NNauthority .2876SENT. And2877CCand ,2878,, here2879RBhere ,2880,, we2881PPwe ...2882:... we2883PPwe 're2884VBPbe missing2885VVGmiss both2886CCboth the2887DTthe arbitrator2888NNarbitrator ,2889,, to2890TOto the2891DTthe exclusion2892NNexclusion of2893INof the2894DTthe court2895NNcourt ,2896,, and2897CCand the2898DTthe arbitrator2899NNarbitrator has2900VHZhave exclusive2901JJexclusive authority2902NNauthority .2903SENT. It2904PPit 's2905VBZbe nothing2906NNnothing like2907INlike that2908DTthat .2909SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]2910LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] I2911PPI think2912VVPthink ,2913,, Justice2914NPJustice Ginsburg2915NPGinsburg ,2916,, if2917INif you2918PPyou take2919VVPtake a2920DTa look2921NNlook at2922INat page2923NNpage 9462924CD@card@ of2925INof this2926DTthis Court2927NPCourt 's2928POS's opinion2929NNopinion in2930INin First2931NPFirst Options2932NPSOptions ,2933,, it2934PPit focuses2935VVZfocus on2936INon the2937DTthe willingness2938NNwillingness of2939INof the2940DTthe party2941NNparty to2942TOto be2943VBbe bound2944VVNbind by2945INby the2946DTthe arbitrator2947NNarbitrator 's2948POS's decision2949NNdecision .2950SENT. And2951CCand I2952PPI think2953VVPthink ,2954,, with2955INwith all2956DTall due2957JJdue respect2958NNrespect ,2959,, we2960PPwe have2961VHPhave that2962RBthat here2963RBhere .2964SENT. And2965CCand I2966PPI think2967VVPthink that2968IN/thatthat what2969WPwhat you2970PPyou ...2971:... what2972WPwhat you2973PPyou cannot2974MDcan do2975VVdo ,2976,, I2977PPI would2978MDwould respectfully2979RBrespectfully submit2980VVsubmit ,2981,, is2982VBZbe to2983TOto say2984VVsay that2985IN/thatthat the2986DTthe parties2987NNSparty implicitly2988RBimplicitly countenanced2989VVDcountenance a2990DTa regime2991NNregime where2992WRBwhere the2993DTthe district2994NNdistrict court2995NNcourt would2996MDwould make2997VVmake a2998DTa preliminary2999JJpreliminary determination3000NNdetermination .3001SENT. With3002INwith respect3003NNrespect ,3004,, Justice3005NPJustice Kagan3006NPKagan ,3007,, I3008PPI think3009VVPthink your3010PP$your question3011NNquestion assumes3012VVZassume that3013IN/thatthat the3014DTthe claim3015NNclaim of3016INof arbitrability3017NNarbitrability is3018VBZbe wholly3019RBwholly groundless3020JJgroundless .3021SENT. That3022DTthat is3023VBZbe the3024DTthe very3025JJvery merits3026NNSmerit dispute3027NNdispute between3028INbetween the3029DTthe parties3030NNSparty .3031SENT. We3032PPwe believe3033VVPbelieve that3034IN/thatthat we3035PPwe have3036VHPhave ...3037:... that3038IN/thatthat the3039DTthe claims3040NNSclaim at3041INat issue3042NNissue are3043VBPbe arbitrable3044JJarbitrable ,3045,, and3046CCand Respondent3047NNrespondent disagrees3048VVZdisagree with3049INwith that3050DTthat .3051SENT. And3052CCand ,3053,, once3054INonce that3055WDTthat is3056VBZbe true3057JJtrue ,3058,, this3059DTthis is3060VBZbe a3061DTa merits3062NNSmerit issue3063NNissue for3064INfor the3065DTthe arbitrator3066NNarbitrator to3067TOto decide3068VVdecide where3069WRBwhere the3070DTthe parties3071NNSparty ...3072:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3073LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] What3074WPWhat 's3075VBZbe wholly3076RBwholly groundless3077JJgroundless ?3078SENT? What3079WPWhat 's3080VBZbe wholly3081RBwholly groundless3082JJgroundless ?3083SENT? Is3084VBZbe ...3085:... is3086VBZbe he3087PPhe saying3088VVGsay what3089WPwhat 's3090VBZbe wholly3091RBwholly groundless3092JJgroundless is3093VBZbe the3094DTthe claim3095NNclaim that3096IN/thatthat arbitrability3097NNarbitrability is3098VBZbe to3099TOto be3100VBbe decided3101VVNdecide by3102INby the3103DTthe arbitrator3104NNarbitrator ?3105SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3106LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] No3107NPNo .3108SENT. It3109PPit 's3110VBZbe the3111DTthe claim3112NNclaim that3113IN/thatthat these3114DTthese substantive3115JJsubstantive claims3116NNSclaim are3117VBPbe subject3118JJsubject to3119TOto ...3120:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3121LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Substantive3122NPSubstantive .3123SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3124LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...3125:... arbitration3126NNarbitration .3127SENT. And3128CCand that3129DTthat is3130VBZbe an3131DTan issue3132NNissue on3133INon which3134WDTwhich the3135DTthe magistrate3136NNmagistrate judge3137NNjudge disagreed3138VVDdisagree .3139SENT. The3140DTthe magistrate3141NNmagistrate judge3142NNjudge concluded3143VVDconclude that3144IN/thatthat we3145PPwe had3146VHDhave a3147DTa plausible3148JJplausible construction3149NNconstruction of3150INof this3151DTthis agreement3152NNagreement ...3153:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3154LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay3155NPOkay .3156SENT. So3157RBso ...3158:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]3159LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...3160:... but3161CCbut notwithstanding3162RBnotwithstanding ...3163:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3164LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...3165:... so3166RBso you3167PPyou say3168VVPsay step3169NNstep 13170CD1 .3171SENT. Is3172VBZbe there3173RBthere clear3174JJclear and3175CCand unmistakable3176JJunmistakable evidence3177NNevidence that3178IN/thatthat an3179DTan arbitrator3180NNarbitrator is3181VBZbe to3182TOto decide3183VVdecide whether3184INwhether a3185DTa particular3186JJparticular matter3187NNmatter X3188NNX is3189VBZbe arbitrable3190JJarbitrable ?3191SENT? Is3192VBZbe that3193DTthat right3194NNright ?3195SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3196LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Yes3197NPYes .3198SENT. The3199DTthe ...3200:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3201LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And3202CCand step3203NNstep 23204CD2 ,3205,, the3206DTthe answer3207NNanswer to3208TOto the3209DTthe first3210JJfirst question3211NNquestion is3212VBZbe yes3213UHyes ,3214,, they3215PPthey did3216VVDdo decide3217VVdecide that3218IN/thatthat clearly3219RBclearly and3220CCand unmistakably3221RBunmistakably .3222SENT. And3223CCand now3224RBnow we3225PPwe see3226VVPsee if3227INif ,3228,, why3229WRBwhy not3230RBnot send3231VVsend it3232PPit to3233TOto them3234PPthem ,3235,, or3236CCor it3237PPit 's3238VBZbe totally3239RBtotally groundless3240JJgroundless ,3241,, we3242PPwe still3243RBstill won3244MDwill 't3245RB't send3246VVsend it3247PPit to3248TOto them3249PPthem .3250SENT. That3251DTthat 's3252VBZbe this3253DTthis case3254NNcase ,3255,, right3256RBright ?3257SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3258LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] That3259DTthat is3260VBZbe the3261DTthe regime3262NNregime ...3263:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3264LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay3265NPOkay .3266SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3267LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...3268:... that3269DTthat Respondent3270NNrespondent ...3271:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3272LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay3273NPOkay .3274SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3275LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...3276:... is3277VBZbe advocating3278VVGadvocate here3279RBhere .3280SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3281LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yes3282NPYes .3283SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3284LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] And3285CCand I3286PPI would3287MDwould like3288VVlike to3289TOto say3290VVsay a3291DTa little3292JJlittle bit3293NNbit about3294INabout why3295WRBwhy we3296PPwe think3297VVPthink that3298DTthat ...3299:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3300LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well3301UHwell ,3302,, I3303PPI have3304VHPhave a3305DTa question3306NNquestion about3307INabout it3308PPit .3309SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3310LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Sure3311NPSure .3312SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3313LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You3314PPyou say3315VVPsay when3316WRBwhen you3317PPyou get3318VVPget to3319TOto step3320VVstep 23321CD2 ,3322,, once3323RBonce we3324PPwe 're3325VBPbe there3326RBthere ,3327,, now3328RBnow there3329EXthere is3330VBZbe no3331DTno wholly3332RBwholly groundless3333JJgroundless exception3334NNexception ,3335,, go3336VVgo send3337VVsend it3338PPit to3339TOto the3340DTthe arbitrator3341NNarbitrator .3342SENT. Is3343VBZbe that3344DTthat right3345NNright ?3346SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3347LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] That3348DTthat is3349VBZbe correct3350JJcorrect .3351SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3352LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay3353NPOkay .3354SENT. Now3355RBnow suppose3356VVPsuppose it3357PPit 's3358VBZbe really3359RBreally weird3360JJweird .3361SENT. I3362PPI mean3363VVPmean ,3364,, you3365PPyou want3366VVPwant to3367TOto say3368VVsay no3369DTno exception3370NNexception at3371INat all3372DTall ?3373SENT? He3374PPhe says3375VVZsay ,3376,, my3377PP$my claim3378NNclaim here3379RBhere is3380VBZbe a3381DTa Martian3382NNMartian told3383VVDtell me3384PPme to3385TOto do3386VVdo it3387PPit .3388SENT. Okay3389JJokay ?3390SENT? [3391SYM[ LAUGHTER3392NNlaughter ]3393SYM] [JUSTICE BREYER]3394LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Are3395VBPbe you3396PPyou saying3397VVGsay no3398DTno matter3399NNmatter what3400WPwhat ,3401,, even3402RBeven if3403INif he3404PPhe has3405VHZhave to3406TOto read3407VVread the3408DTthe word3409NNword yes3410NNyes in3411INin the3412DTthe contract3413NNcontract to3414TOto mean3415VVmean no3416RBno ,3417,, never3418RBnever ,3419,, under3420INunder no3421DTno circumstances3422NNScircumstance ,3423,, is3424VBZbe there3425RBthere no3426DTno exception3427NNexception no3428RBno matter3429VVmatter what3430WPwhat ?3431SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3432LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Yes3433NPYes ,3434,, and3435CCand picking3436VVGpick up3437RPup on3438INon Justice3439NPJustice ...3440:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3441LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yes3442NPYes ?3443SENT? Yes3444UHyes ,3445,, no3446DTno exception3447NNexception no3448RBno matter3449VVmatter what3450WPwhat ?3451SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3452LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] There3453EXthere is3454VBZbe no3455DTno exception3456NNexception no3457DTno matter3458NNmatter what3459WPwhat ,3460,, but3461CCbut there3462EXthere are3463VBPbe remedies3464NNSremedy available3465JJavailable where3466WRBwhere a3467DTa party3468NNparty makes3469VVZmake a3470DTa truly3471RBtruly frivolous3472JJfrivolous claim3473NNclaim .3474SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3475LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] What3476WPWhat ?3477SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3478LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] First3479NPFirst ,3480,, it3481PPit is3482VBZbe agreed3483VVNagree that3484IN/thatthat the3485DTthe arbitrator3486NNarbitrator has3487VHZhave the3488DTthe ability3489NNability to3490TOto impose3491VVimpose a3492DTa wide3493JJwide range3494NNrange of3495INof sanctions3496NNSsanction on3497INon a3498DTa party3499NNparty that3500WDTthat is3501VBZbe making3502VVGmake a3503DTa frivolous3504JJfrivolous argument3505NNargument .3506SENT. Those3507DTthose sanctions3508NNSsanction are3509VBPbe comparable3510JJcomparable to3511TOto the3512DTthe sanctions3513NNSsanction that3514IN/thatthat a3515DTa court3516NNcourt can3517MDcan impose3518VVimpose in3519INin litigation3520NNlitigation .3521SENT. And3522CCand it3523PPit may3524MDmay also3525RBalso be3526VBbe true3527JJtrue that3528IN/thatthat a3529DTa court3530NNcourt ...3531:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3532LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] The3533DTthe arbitrator3534NNarbitrator ,3535,, by3536INby the3537DTthe way3538NNway ,3539,, loves3540VVZlove Martians3541NNSMartian .3542SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3543LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well3544UHWell ,3545,, what3546WPwhat we3547PPwe contend3548VVPcontend ...3549:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3550LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So3551RBso ...3552:... so3553RBso what3554WPwhat they3555PPthey 're3556VBPbe worried3557JJworried about3558RBabout is3559VBZbe they3560PPthey 're3561VBPbe going3562VVGgo to3563TOto get3564VVget a3565DTa bad3566JJbad decision3567NNdecision on3568INon this3569DTthis ridiculous3570JJridiculous claim3571NNclaim .3572SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3573LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] But3574CCbut going3575VVGgo back3576RBback to3577TOto the3578DTthe very3579RBvery early3580JJearly days3581NNSday or3582CCor the3583DTthe relatively3584RBrelatively early3585JJearly days3586NNSday of3587INof this3588DTthis Court's3589NPCourt's ...3590:... [JUSTICE BREYER]3591LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah3592NPYeah .3593SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]3594LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...3595:... FAA3596NPFAA jurisprudence3597NNjurisprudence ,3598,, this3599DTthis Court3600NPCourt made3601VVDmake clear3602JJclear in3603INin Shearson3604NPShearson Lehman3605NPLehman that3606IN/thatthat we3607PPwe presume3608VVPpresume that3609IN/thatthat arbitrators3610NNSarbitrator are3611VBPbe fair3612JJfair ,3613,, impartial3614JJimpartial decision-makers3615NNSdecision-maker .3616SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3617LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well3618UHwell ,3619,, they3620PPthey may3621MDmay not3622RBnot ...3623:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3624LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Mr3625NPMr .3626SENT. Shanmugam3627NNShanmugam ...3628:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3629LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] They3630PPthey may3631MDmay or3632CCor may3633MDmay not3634RBnot love3635VVlove Martians3636NNSMartian ,3637,, but3638CCbut do3639VVPdo you3640PPyou think3641VVPthink it3642PPit 's3643VBZbe fair3644JJfair to3645TOto say3646VVsay that3647IN/thatthat they3648PPthey love3649VVPlove arbitration3650NNarbitration ,3651,, so3652RBso they3653PPthey 're3654VBPbe not3655RBnot probably3656RBprobably very3657RBvery much3658RBmuch inclined3659VVNincline to3660TOto sanction3661VVsanction parties3662NNSparty who3663WPwho bring3664VVPbring suit3665NNsuit ...3666:... bring3667VVbring arbitrable3668JJarbitrable disputes3669NNSdispute to3670TOto them3671PPthem ?3672SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3673LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] They3674PPthey actually3675RBactually do3676VVPdo have3677VHhave specific3678JJspecific and3679CCand explicit3680JJexplicit remedies3681NNSremedy under3682INunder their3683PP$their rules3684NNSrule for3685INfor providing3686VVGprovide ...3687:... for3688INfor imposing3689VVGimpose sanctions3690NNSsanction ,3691,, including3692VVGinclude cost3693NNcost and3694CCand fee3695NNfee shifting3696VVGshift and3697CCand the3698DTthe like3699INlike .3700SENT. And3701CCand it3702PPit may3703MDmay very3704RBvery well3705RBwell be3706VBbe that3707IN/thatthat after3708INafter an3709DTan arbitrator3710NNarbitrator makes3711VVZmake his3712PP$his or3713CCor her3714PP$her determination3715NNdetermination that3716IN/thatthat a3717DTa district3718NNdistrict court3719NNcourt would3720MDwould have3721VHhave the3722DTthe ability3723NNability to3724TOto impose3725VVimpose sanctions3726NNSsanction under3727INunder Rule3728NPRule 113729CD@card@ where3730WRBwhere the3731DTthe requirements3732NNSrequirement of3733INof that3734DTthat rule3735NNrule have3736VHPhave been3737VBNbe met3738VVNmeet .3739SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3740LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well3741UHWell ,3742,, how3743WRBhow can3744MDcan it3745PPit do3746VVdo that3747DTthat ?3748SENT? If3749INif the3750DTthe court3751NNcourt can3752MDcan 't3753RB't even3754RBeven take3755VVtake a3756DTa peek3757NNpeek at3758INat the3759DTthe arbitrability3760NNarbitrability question3761NNquestion itself3762PPitself ,3763,, how3764WRBhow does3765VVZdo the3766DTthe court3767NNcourt all3768RBall of3769INof a3770DTa sudden3771JJsudden have3772VHPhave the3773DTthe power3774NNpower to3775TOto sanction3776VVsanction a3777DTa motion3778NNmotion to3779TOto compel3780VVcompel ?3781SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]3782LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] At3783INat least3784JJSleast before3785INbefore remitting3786VVGremit the3787DTthe issue3788NNissue to3789TOto arbitration3790NNarbitration ,3791,, I3792PPI think3793VVPthink there3794EXthere would3795MDwould be3796VBbe a3797DTa conflict3798NNconflict between3799INbetween Rule3800NPRule 113801CD@card@ and3802CCand the3803DTthe Arbitration3804NPArbitration Act3805NPAct if3806INif a3807DTa court3808NNcourt were3809VBDbe to3810TOto make3811VVmake a3812DTa merits3813NNSmerit determination3814NNdetermination first3815RBfirst .3816SENT. But3817CCbut I3818PPI think3819VVPthink ,3820,, after3821INafter an3822DTan arbitrator3823NNarbitrator makes3824VVZmake a3825DTa determination3826NNdetermination ,3827,, when3828WRBwhen the3829DTthe parties3830NNSparty are3831VBPbe back3832RBback before3833INbefore the3834DTthe district3835NNdistrict court3836NNcourt ,3837,, I3838PPI think3839VVPthink the3840DTthe district3841NNdistrict court3842NNcourt would3843MDwould have3844VHhave the3845DTthe ability3846NNability to3847TOto make3848VVmake the3849DTthe determination3850NNdetermination that3851IN/thatthat the3852DTthe petition3853NNpetition to3854TOto compel3855VVcompel arbitration3856NNarbitration was3857VBDbe frivolous3858JJfrivolous or3859CCor brought3860VVNbring in3861INin bad3862JJbad faith3863NNfaith .3864SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]3865LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Now3866RBnow what3867WPwhat is3868VBZbe the3869DTthe advantage3870NNadvantage ...3871:... what3872WPwhat is3873VBZbe the3874DTthe advantage3875NNadvantage of3876INof this3877DTthis ?3878SENT? Because3879INbecause remember3880VVremember step3881NNstep 13882CD1 .3883SENT. Step3884NNstep 13885CD1 is3886VBZbe we3887PPwe have3888VHPhave to3889TOto decide3890VVdecide ...3891:... court3892NNcourt ,3893,, we3894PPwe 're3895VBPbe a3896DTa court3897NNcourt ...3898:... we3899PPwe have3900VHPhave to3901TOto decide3902VVdecide whether3903INwhether there3904EXthere is3905VBZbe a3906DTa clear3907JJclear and3908CCand unmistakable3909JJunmistakable commitment3910NNcommitment to3911TOto have3912VHhave this3913DTthis kind3914NNkind of3915INof matter3916NNmatter decided3917VVNdecide in3918INin arbitration3919NNarbitration .3920SENT. Now3921RBnow ,3922,, kind3923NNkind of3924INof matter3925NNmatter .3926SENT. Now3927RBnow you3928PPyou would3929MDwould have3930VHhave thought3931VVNthink if3932INif you3933PPyou really3934RBreally have3935VHPhave a3936DTa Martian3937JJMartian case3938NNcase ,3939,, the3940DTthe judge3941NNjudge would3942MDwould have3943VHhave found3944VVNfind some3945DTsome way3946NNway not3947RBnot to3948TOto send3949VVsend it3950PPit ,3951,, and3952CCand he3953PPhe would3954MDwould have3955VHhave said3956VVNsay kind3957NNkind of3958INof matter3959NNmatter .3960SENT. Well3961UHwell ,3962,, not3963RBnot the3964DTthe Martian3965JJMartian kind3966NNkind of3967INof matter3968NNmatter .3969SENT. There3970EXthere 's3971VBZbe no3972DTno clear3973JJclear and3974CCand unmistakable3975JJunmistakable commitment3976NNcommitment to3977TOto send3978VVsend that3979DTthat kind3980NNkind of3981INof matter3982NNmatter .3983SENT. In3984INin other3985JJother words3986NNSword ,3987,, if3988INif it3989PPit 's3990VBZbe weird3991JJweird enough3992RBenough ,3993,, you3994PPyou do3995VVPdo n't3996RBn't have3997VHhave to3998TOto get3999VVget beyond4000INbeyond step4001NNstep 14002CD1 because4003INbecause you4004PPyou can4005MDcan say4006VVsay there4007EXthere 's4008VBZbe no4009DTno commitment4010NNcommitment to4011TOto send4012VVsend this4013DTthis kind4014NNkind of4015INof matter4016NNmatter .4017SENT. And4018CCand now4019RBnow what4020WPwhat 's4021VBZbe the4022DTthe difference4023NNdifference between4024INbetween that4025WDTthat and4026CCand what4027WPwhat they4028PPthey did4029VVDdo say4030VVsay ,4031,, there4032EXthere 's4033VBZbe no4034DTno commitment4035NNcommitment to4036TOto send4037VVsend a4038DTa groundless4039JJgroundless matter4040NNmatter ?4041SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]4042LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] But4043CCbut the4044DTthe whole4045JJwhole point4046NNpoint of4047INof the4048DTthe principle4049NNprinciple that4050IN/thatthat the4051DTthe parties4052NNSparty can4053MDcan delegate4054VVdelegate arbitrability4055NNarbitrability to4056TOto the4057DTthe arbitrator4058NNarbitrator ...4059:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4060LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yes4061NPYes .4062SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4063LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...4064:... is4065VBZbe that4066IN/thatthat the4067DTthe parties4068NNSparty can4069MDcan make4070VVmake a4071DTa decision4072NNdecision about4073INabout who4074WPwho decides4075VVZdecide and4076CCand where4077WRBwhere ...4078:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4079LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] No4080RBno ,4081,, I4082PPI understand4083VVPunderstand that4084RBthat .4085SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4086LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...4087:... the4088DTthe parties4089NNSparty '4090POS' intent4091NNintent is4092VBZbe sufficiently4093RBsufficiently clear4094JJclear that4095IN/thatthat the4096DTthe arbitrator4097NNarbitrator ...4098:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4099LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yes4100NPYes .4101SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4102LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...4103:... decides4104VVZdecide ,4105,, it4106PPit 's4107VBZbe ...4108:... [JUSTICE BREYER]4109LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well4110UHwell ,4111,, it4112PPit 's4113VBZbe never4114RBnever sufficiently4115RBsufficiently clear4116JJclear if4117INif the4118DTthe matter4119NNmatter that4120IN/thatthat they4121PPthey 're4122VBPbe deciding4123VVGdecide to4124TOto arbitrate4125VVarbitrate is4126VBZbe a4127DTa Martian4128JJMartian matter4129NNmatter ,4130,, unless4131INunless they4132PPthey really4133RBreally said4134VVDsay Martians4135NNSMartian ,4136,, which4137WDTwhich I4138PPI do4139VVPdo n't4140RBn't think4141VVthink would4142MDwould ever4143RBever happen4144VVhappen .4145SENT. In4146INin other4147JJother words4148NNSword ,4149,, if4150INif it4151PPit is4152VBZbe a4153DTa totally4154RBtotally ridiculous4155JJridiculous claim4156NNclaim ,4157,, should4158MDshould n't4159RBn't you4160PPyou have4161VHPhave to4162TOto find4163VVfind a4164DTa clear4165JJclear and4166CCand definite4167JJdefinite commitment4168NNcommitment to4169TOto send4170VVsend a4171DTa wholly4172RBwholly ridiculous4173JJridiculous matter4174NNmatter to4175TOto the4176DTthe arbitrator4177NNarbitrator ?4178SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]4179LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] That4180DTthat goes4181VVZgo to4182TOto the4183DTthe merits4184NNSmerit ,4185,, and4186CCand wherever4187WRBwherever you4188PPyou set4189VVDset the4190DTthe bar4191NNbar ,4192,, the4193DTthe fact4194NNfact remains4195VVZremain that4196IN/thatthat it4197PPit is4198VBZbe still4199RBstill a4200DTa merits4201NNSmerit determination4202NNdetermination .4203SENT. And4204CCand to4205TOto the4206DTthe extent4207NNextent that4208IN/thatthat this4209DTthis Court4210NPCourt is4211VBZbe concerned4212VVNconcern about4213INabout this4214DTthis as4215INas a4216DTa policy4217NNpolicy matter4218NNmatter ...4219:... and4220CCand I4221PPI would4222MDwould respectfully4223RBrespectfully submit4224VVsubmit that4225IN/thatthat there4226EXthere is4227VBZbe not4228RBnot a4229DTa lot4230NNlot of4231INof evidence4232NNevidence to4233TOto indicate4234VVindicate that4235IN/thatthat this4236DTthis is4237VBZbe a4238DTa problem4239NNproblem ,4240,, perhaps4241RBperhaps not4242RBnot surprisingly4243RBsurprisingly ,4244,, because4245INbecause often4246RBoften the4247DTthe defendants4248NNSdefendant bear4249VVPbear the4250DTthe cost4251NNcost of4252INof arbitral4253JJarbitral proceedings4254NNSproceeding ...4255:... the4256DTthe regime4257NNregime that4258IN/thatthat we4259PPwe are4260VBPbe advocating4261VVGadvocate is4262VBZbe not4263RBnot only4264RBonly more4265RBRmore faithful4266JJfaithful to4267TOto the4268DTthe language4269NNlanguage of4270INof the4271DTthe Arbitration4272NPArbitration Act4273NPAct ...4274:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4275LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well4276UHWell ,4277,, what4278WPwhat about4279RBabout ...4280:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]4281LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...4282:... it4283PPit is4284VBZbe a4285DTa much4286RBmuch more4287RBRmore efficient4288JJefficient regime4289NNregime .4290SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4291LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...4292:... what4293WPwhat about4294INabout Section4295NPSection 44296CD4 of4297INof the4298DTthe Act4299NPAct ,4300,, which4301WDTwhich Respondent4302JJrespondent points4303NNSpoint to4304TOto as4305INas the4306DTthe front-end4307NNfront-end equivalent4308NNequivalent of4309INof what4310WPwhat you4311PPyou alluded4312VVDallude to4313TOto in4314INin response4315NNresponse to4316TOto Justice4317NPJustice Sotomayor4318NPSotomayor as4319INas the4320DTthe back-end4321JJback-end Section4322NPSection 104323CD@card@ review4324NNreview ?4325SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]4326LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] As4327INas ...4328:... as4329INas this4330DTthis Court4331NPCourt made4332VVDmake clear4333JJclear ...4334:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4335LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] The4336DTthe "4337``" failure4338NNfailure to4339TOto comply4340VVcomply therewith4341RBtherewith "4342''" language4343NNlanguage in4344INin particular4345JJparticular which4346WDTwhich they4347PPthey focus4348VVPfocus on4349RPon ,4350,, what4351WPwhat does4352VVZdo that4353IN/thatthat mean4354JJmean and4355CCand what4356WPwhat does4357VVZdo that4358RBthat do4359VVdo ?4360SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]4361LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Sure4362NPSure .4363SENT. As4364INas this4365DTthis Court4366NPCourt made4367VVDmake clear4368JJclear in4369INin Prima4370JJprima Paint4371NNpaint ,4372,, that4373DTthat language4374NNlanguage limits4375VVZlimit a4376DTa court4377NNcourt 's4378POS's role4379NNrole in4380INin ruling4381NNruling on4382INon a4383DTa petition4384NNpetition to4385TOto compel4386VVcompel arbitration4387NNarbitration to4388TOto reviewing4389VVGreview the4390DTthe making4391NNmaking and4392CCand the4393DTthe performance4394NNperformance of4395INof the4396DTthe agreement4397NNagreement .4398SENT. And4399CCand ,4400,, here4401RBhere ,4402,, the4403DTthe relevant4404JJrelevant agreement4405NNagreement is4406VBZbe the4407DTthe agreement4408NNagreement to4409TOto remit4410VVremit arbitrability4411NNarbitrability to4412TOto the4413DTthe arbitrator4414NNarbitrator .4415SENT. And4416CCand there4417EXthere is4418VBZbe a4419DTa failure4420NNfailure to4421TOto comply4422VVcomply when4423WRBwhen the4424DTthe opposing4425JJopposing party4426NNparty ,4427,, the4428DTthe party4429NNparty that4430WDTthat does4431VVZdo not4432RBnot want4433VVwant arbitration4434NNarbitration ,4435,, is4436VBZbe resisting4437VVGresist arbitration4438NNarbitration .4439SENT. That4440DTthat is4441VBZbe all4442PDTall that4443DTthat is4444VBZbe required4445VVNrequire .4446SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4447LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] So4448INso what4449WPwhat work4450VVPwork ...4451:... what4452WPwhat work4453NNwork does4454VVZdo that4455DTthat language4456NNlanguage do4457VVPdo ?4458SENT? [MR. SHANMUGAM]4459LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] All4460NPAll that4461WDTthat it4462PPit ...4463:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4464LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] On4465INon performance4466NNperformance .4467SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4468LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] ...4469:... requires4470VVZrequire ...4471:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4472LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] I4473PPI ...4474:... what4475WPwhat ...4476:... give4477VVgive me4478PPme an4479DTan example4480NNexample of4481INof when4482WRBwhen that4483DTthat would4484MDwould have4485VHhave some4486DTsome effect4487NNeffect ,4488,, if4489INif there4490EXthere is4491VBZbe one4492CDone .4493SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4494LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well4495UHWell ,4496,, I4497PPI ...4498:... I4499PPI think4500VVPthink that4501IN/thatthat all4502DTall it4503PPit requires4504VVZrequire a4505DTa court4506NNcourt to4507TOto do4508VVdo ...4509:... and4510CCand this4511DTthis is4512VBZbe a4513DTa pretty4514RBpretty minimal4515JJminimal function4516NNfunction ...4517:... is4518VBZbe to4519TOto determine4520VVdetermine that4521IN/thatthat you4522PPyou have4523VHPhave one4524CDone party4525NNparty that4526WDTthat wants4527VVZwant arbitration4528NNarbitration and4529CCand another4530DTanother party4531NNparty that4532WDTthat does4533VVZdo not4534RBnot .4535SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4536LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] So4537INso that4538DTthat ...4539:... that4540WDTthat 's4541VBZbe what4542WPwhat I4543PPI thought4544VVDthink you4545PPyou 'd4546MDwould say4547VVsay .4548SENT. And4549CCand that4550DTthat means4551NNSmean ,4552,, in4553INin essence4554NNessence ,4555,, I4556PPI think4557VVPthink ,4558,, that4559IN/thatthat that4560DTthat language4561NNlanguage in4562INin the4563DTthe statute4564NNstatute does4565VVZdo no4566DTno work4567NNwork .4568SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4569LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well4570UHwell ,4571,, there4572EXthere has4573VHZhave to4574TOto still4575RBstill be4576VBbe a4577DTa ...4578:... a4579DTa ...4580:... a4581DTa dispute4582NNdispute ,4583,, which4584WDTwhich is4585VBZbe to4586TOto say4587VVsay you4588PPyou 've4589VHPhave got4590VVNget to4591TOto have4592VHhave one4593CDone party4594NNparty ...4595:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4596LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] That4597DTthat 's4598VBZbe covered4599VVNcover by4600INby the4601DTthe beginning4602NNbeginning of4603INof the4604DTthe Section4605NPSection 44606CD4 ,4607,, though4608RBthough .4609SENT. That4610IN/thatthat there4611EXthere 's4612VBZbe a4613DTa dispute4614NNdispute .4615SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4616LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] Well4617UHWell ,4618,, I4619PPI ...4620:... I4621PPI do4622VVPdo n't4623RBn't think4624VVthink so4625RBso .4626SENT. I4627PPI mean4628VVPmean ,4629,, I4630PPI think4631VVPthink that4632IN/thatthat that4633DTthat is4634VBZbe the4635DTthe relevant4636JJrelevant ...4637:... the4638DTthe relevant4639JJrelevant failure4640NNfailure to4641TOto comply4642VVcomply .4643SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4644LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] A4645NPA ...4646:... a4647DTa party4648NNparty aggrieved4649VVNaggrieve by4650INby the4651DTthe alleged4652JJalleged failure4653NNfailure or4654CCor refusal4655NNrefusal to4656TOto arbitrate4657VVarbitrate .4658SENT. I'm4659NNI'm ...4660:... I4661PPI 'm4662VBPbe just4663RBjust trying4664VVGtry to4665TOto figure4666VVfigure out4667RPout what4668WPwhat "4669``" failure4670NNfailure to4671TOto comply4672VVcomply therewith4673RBtherewith "4674''" means4675NNSmean ...4676:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]4677LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] I4678PPI think4679VVPthink both4680DTboth sides4681NNSside agree4682VVPagree that4683IN/thatthat those4684DTthose two4685CDtwo things4686NNSthing are4687VBPbe essentially4688RBessentially reenforcing4689VVGreenforce ,4690,, which4691WDTwhich is4692VBZbe to4693TOto say4694VVsay that4695IN/thatthat when4696WRBwhen you4697PPyou have4698VHPhave a4699DTa party4700NNparty that4701WDTthat resists4702VVZresist arbitration4703NNarbitration ,4704,, the4705DTthe moving4706VVGmove party4707NNparty is4708VBZbe aggrieved4709VVNaggrieve .4710SENT. And4711CCand I4712PPI think4713VVPthink that4714IN/thatthat Respondent4715NNrespondent recognizes4716VVZrecognize in4717INin a4718DTa footnote4719NNfootnote in4720INin its4721PP$its brief4722NNbrief that4723IN/thatthat "4724``" aggrieved4725VVNaggrieve "4726''" does4727VVZdo no4728DTno independent4729JJindependent work4730NNwork beyond4731INbeyond that4732DTthat .4733SENT. But4734CCbut I4735PPI do4736VVPdo think4737VVthink that4738IN/thatthat the4739DTthe regime4740NNregime that4741IN/thatthat we4742PPwe 're4743VBPbe advocating4744VVGadvocate is4745VBZbe a4746DTa more4747RBRmore efficient4748JJefficient regime4749NNregime precisely4750RBprecisely because4751RBbecause ,4752,, under4753INunder Respondent4754NNrespondent 's4755POS's regime4756NNregime ,4757,, a4758DTa district4759NNdistrict court4760NNcourt is4761VBZbe supposedly4762RBsupposedly making4763VVGmake this4764DTthis threshold4765NNthreshold determination4766NNdetermination on4767INon whether4768INwhether or4769CCor not4770RBnot the4771DTthe claim4772NNclaim of4773INof arbitrability4774NNarbitrability is4775VBZbe wholly4776RBwholly groundless4777JJgroundless .4778SENT. If4779INif a4780DTa district4781NNdistrict court4782NNcourt concludes4783VVZconclude that4784IN/thatthat the4785DTthe claim4786NNclaim is4787VBZbe not4788RBnot wholly4789RBwholly groundless4790JJgroundless ,4791,, presumably4792RBpresumably ,4793,, the4794DTthe issue4795NNissue would4796MDwould then4797RBthen go4798VVgo to4799TOto the4800DTthe arbitrator4801NNarbitrator to4802TOto make4803VVmake a4804DTa plenary4805JJplenary determination4806NNdetermination on4807INon that4808DTthat issue4809NNissue ,4810,, and4811CCand if4812INif the4813DTthe district4814NNdistrict court4815NNcourt determines4816VVZdetermine that4817IN/thatthat the4818DTthe claim4819NNclaim is4820VBZbe wholly4821RBwholly groundless4822JJgroundless ,4823,, there4824EXthere will4825MDwill be4826VBbe appeals4827NNSappeal as4828INas of4829INof right4830NNright immediately4831RBimmediately under4832INunder Section4833NPSection 164834CD@card@ of4835INof the4836DTthe Arbitration4837NPArbitration Act4838NPAct .4839SENT. And4840CCand that4841WDTthat will4842MDwill lead4843VVlead to4844TOto the4845DTthe very4846JJvery inefficiency4847NNinefficiency that4848IN/thatthat we4849PPwe see4850VVPsee in4851INin this4852DTthis case4853NNcase .4854SENT. This4855DTthis case4856NNcase is4857VBZbe certainly4858RBcertainly an4859DTan outlier4860NNoutlier because4861INbecause it4862PPit has4863VHZhave taken4864VVNtake so4865RBso long4866RBlong ,4867,, but4868CCbut we4869PPwe are4870VBPbe now4871RBnow six4872CDsix years4873NNSyear down4874INdown the4875DTthe road4876NNroad ,4877,, still4878RBstill litigating4879VVGlitigate the4880DTthe issue4881NNissue of4882INof arbitrability4883NNarbitrability .4884SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4885LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But4886CCbut that4887WDTthat was4888VBDbe ...4889:... that4890WDTthat was4891VBDbe the4892DTthe court's4893NNScourt's ...4894:... for4895INfor the4896DTthe court4897NNcourt to4898TOto decide4899VVdecide whether4900INwhether the4901DTthe motion4902NNmotion was4903VBDbe for4904INfor the4905DTthe magistrate4906NNmagistrate judge4907NNjudge to4908TOto reconsider4909VVreconsider or4910CCor for4911INfor the4912DTthe district4913NNdistrict court4914NNcourt to4915TOto review4916VVreview .4917SENT. [MR. SHANMUGAM]4918LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] That4919DTthat explains4920VVZexplain three4921CDthree of4922INof the4923DTthe six4924CDsix years4925NNSyear of4926INof the4927DTthe delay4928NNdelay ,4929,, Justice4930NPJustice Ginsburg4931NPGinsburg .4932SENT. But4933CCbut I4934PPI really4935RBreally do4936VVPdo n't4937RBn't think4938VVthink it4939PPit can4940MDcan be4941VBbe reasonably4942RBreasonably disputed4943VVNdispute that4944IN/thatthat if4945INif the4946DTthe issue4947NNissue of4948INof arbitrability4949NNarbitrability had4950VHDhave gone4951VVNgo to4952TOto the4953DTthe arbitrator4954NNarbitrator in4955INin the4956DTthe first4957JJfirst instance4958NNinstance ,4959,, as4960INas it4961PPit should4962MDshould have4963VHhave ,4964,, that4965IN/thatthat we4966PPwe probably4967RBprobably would4968MDwould be4969VBbe entirely4970RBentirely done4971VVNdo with4972INwith this4973DTthis case4974NNcase .4975SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4976LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] They4977PPthey ...4978:... [MR. SHANMUGAM]4979LOC[MR. SHANMUGAM] And4980CCand ,4981,, of4982INof course4983NNcourse ,4984,, our4985PP$our fundamental4986JJfundamental submission4987NNsubmission is4988VBZbe that4989IN/thatthat there4990EXthere is4991VBZbe simply4992RBsimply no4993DTno footing4994NNfooting in4995INin the4996DTthe text4997NNtext of4998INof the4999DTthe Arbitration5000NPArbitration Act5001NPAct for5002INfor this5003DTthis exception5004NNexception .5005SENT. To5006TOTo the5007DTthe extent5008NNextent that5009IN/thatthat the5010DTthe Court5011NPCourt has5012VHZhave questions5013NNSquestion about5014INabout the5015DTthe delegation5016NNdelegation in5017INin this5018DTthis case5019NNcase ,5020,, that5021WDTthat is5022VBZbe a5023DTa discrete5024JJdiscrete question5025NNquestion that5026IN/thatthat the5027DTthe Court5028NPCourt need5029MDneed not5030RBnot reach5031VVreach here5032RBhere .5033SENT. And5034CCand so5035RBso we5036PPwe submit5037VVPsubmit that5038IN/thatthat on5039INon the5040DTthe question5041NNquestion presented5042VVDpresent ,5043,, the5044DTthe answer5045NNanswer is5046VBZbe quite5047RBquite simple5048JJsimple :5049:: The5050DTthe FAA5051NPFAA does5052VVZdo not5053RBnot permit5054VVpermit this5055DTthis exception5056NNexception and5057CCand ,5058,, therefore5059RBtherefore ,5060,, the5061DTthe judgment5062NNjudgment should5063MDshould be5064VBbe vacated5065VVNvacate .5066SENT. I5067PPI 'll5068MDwill reserve5069VVreserve the5070DTthe balance5071NNbalance of5072INof my5073PP$my time5074NNtime for5075INfor rebuttal5076NNrebuttal .5077SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5078LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5079VVthank you5080PPyou ,5081,, counsel5082NNcounsel .5083SENT. Mr5084NPMr .5085SENT. Geyser5086NNgeyser .5087SENT.