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[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] We2PPwe 'll3MDwill hear4VVhear argument5NNargument this6DTthis morning7NNmorning in8INin Case9NPCase 18-132310CD@card@ ,11,, June12NPJune Medical13NPMedical Services14NPSServices versus15CCversus Russo16NPRusso ,17,, and18CCand the19DTthe cross-petition20NNcross-petition ,21,, 18-146022CD@card@ ,23,, Russo24NPRusso versus25CCversus June26NPJune Medical27NPMedical Services28NPSServices .29SENT. Ms30NNMs .31SENT. Rikelman32NPRikelman .33SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]34LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Mr35NPMr .36SENT. Chief37NPChief Justice38NPJustice ,39,, and40CCand may41MDmay it42PPit please43VVplease the44DTthe Court45NPCourt :46:: This47DTthis case48NNcase is49VBZbe about50RBabout respect51NNrespect for52INfor the53DTthe Court54NPCourt 's55POS's precedent56NNprecedent .57SENT. Just58RBjust four59CDfour years60NNSyear ago61RBago ,62,, the63DTthe Court64NPCourt held65VVDhold in66INin Whole67JJwhole Woman68NPWoman 's69POS's Health70NNhealth that71IN/thatthat the72DTthe Texas73NPTexas admitting74VVGadmit privileges75NNSprivilege law76NNlaw imposed77VVDimpose an78DTan undue79JJundue burden80NNburden on81INon women82NNSwoman seeking83VVGseek abortions84NNSabortion .85SENT. The86DTthe Louisiana87NPLouisiana law88NNlaw at89INat issue90NNissue here91RBhere ,92,, Act93NPAct 62094CD@card@ ,95,, is96VBZbe identical97JJidentical to98TOto the99DTthe Texas100NPTexas law101NNlaw and102CCand was103VBDbe expressly104RBexpressly modeled105VVNmodel on106INon it107PPit .108SENT. After109INafter a110DTa trial111NNtrial ,112,, the113DTthe district114NNdistrict court115NNcourt ruled116VVNrule Act117NPAct 620118CD@card@ unconstitutional119JJunconstitutional ,120,, finding121VVGfind no122DTno material123NNmaterial differences124NNSdifference between125INbetween this126DTthis case127NNcase and128CCand Whole129JJwhole Woman130NPWoman 's131POS's Health132NPHealth .133SENT. On134INon burdens135NNSburden ,136,, it137PPit found138VVDfind that139IN/thatthat Act140NPAct 620141CD@card@ would142MDwould leave143VVleave Louisiana144NPLouisiana with145INwith just146RBjust one147CDone clinic148NNclinic and149CCand one150CDone doctor151NNdoctor providing152VVGprovide abortions153NNSabortion .154SENT. At155INat the156DTthe same157JJsame time158NNtime ,159,, it160PPit found161VVDfind that162IN/thatthat Act163NPAct would164MDwould do165VVdo nothing166NNnothing for167INfor women168NNSwoman 's169POS's health170NNhealth .171SENT. In172INin reversing173VVGreverse the174DTthe district175NNdistrict court176NNcourt 's177POS's decision178NNdecision ,179,, the180DTthe Fifth181NPFifth Circuit182NPCircuit committed183VVDcommit two184CDtwo fundamental185JJfundamental errors186NNSerror .187SENT. First188RBfirst ,189,, it190PPit usurped191VVDusurp the192DTthe role193NNrole of194INof the195DTthe district196NNdistrict court197NNcourt and198CCand disregarded199VVDdisregard nearly200RBnearly all201RBall of202INof its203PP$its factual204JJfactual findings205NNSfinding .206SENT. Second207RBsecond ,208,, the209DTthe Fifth210NPFifth Circuit211NPCircuit accepted212VVDaccept legal213JJlegal arguments214NNSargument that215IN/thatthat this216DTthis Court217NPCourt rejected218VVDreject four219CDfour years220NNSyear ago221RBago .222SENT. Nothing223NNnothing ,224,, however225RBhowever ,226,, has227VHZhave changed228VVNchange that229IN/thatthat would230MDwould justify231VVjustify such232PDTsuch a233DTa legal234JJlegal about-face235NNabout-face .236SENT. In237INin fact238NNfact ,239,, even240RBeven more241RBRmore medical242JJmedical organizations243NNSorganization have244VHPhave joined245VVNjoin the246DTthe AMA247NPAMA and248CCand ACOG249NPACOG to250TOto say251VVsay that252IN/thatthat admitting253VVGadmit privileges254NNSprivilege impose255VVimpose barriers256NNSbarrier to257TOto abortion258NNabortion with259INwith no260DTno benefit261NNbenefit to262TOto patients263NNSpatient and264CCand that265IN/thatthat this266DTthis impact267NNimpact is268VBZbe not269RBnot state270NNstate dependent271JJdependent .272SENT. Finally273RBfinally ,274,, the275DTthe state276NNstate 's277POS's eleventh-hour278NNeleventh-hour objection279NNobjection to280TOto third-party281JJthird-party standing282NNstanding runs283VVZrun up284RPup against285INagainst still286RBstill more287JJRmore binding288JJbinding precedent289NNprecedent .290SENT. The291DTthe Court292NPCourt squarely293RBsquarely held294VVDhold in295INin Craig296NPCraig versus297CCversus Boren298NPBoren that299IN/thatthat such300JJsuch objections301NNSobjection are302VBPbe waiveable303JJwaiveable ,304,, and305CCand the306DTthe state307NNstate deliberately308RBdeliberately and309CCand strategically310RBstrategically waived311VVDwaive the312DTthe issue313NNissue in314INin the315DTthe district316NNdistrict court317NNcourt .318SENT. And319CCand even320RBeven if321INif the322DTthe state323NNstate could324MDcould get325VVget past326JJpast waiver327NNwaiver ,328,, denying329VVGdeny standing330NNstanding here331RBhere would332MDwould contradict333VVcontradict decades334NNSdecade of335INof this336DTthis Court337NPCourt 's338POS's precedent339NNprecedent in340INin numerous341JJnumerous areas342NNSarea of343INof the344DTthe law345NNlaw .346SENT. In347INin short348JJshort ,349,, Petitioners350NNSpetitioner have351VHPhave third-party352JJthird-party standing353NNstanding ,354,, especially355RBespecially because356INbecause Act357NPAct 620358CD@card@ restricts359VVZrestrict abortion360NNabortion by361INby regulating362VVGregulate them363PPthem ,364,, rather365RBrather than366INthan their367PP$their patients368NNSpatient .369SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]370LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Would371MDwould you372PPyou have373VHPhave done374VVNdo anything375NNanything different376JJdifferent if377INif it378PPit had379VHDhave been380VBNbe ...381:... if382INif the383DTthe third-party384JJthird-party standing385NNstanding had386VHDhave been387VBNbe timely388JJtimely raised389VVDraise ?390SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]391LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your392PP$your Honor393NPHonor ,394,, we395PPwe certainly396RBcertainly could397MDcould have398VHhave submitted399VVNsubmit additional400JJadditional evidence401NNevidence in402INin the403DTthe court404NNcourt ,405,, but406CCbut we407PPwe believe408VVPbelieve that409IN/thatthat the410DTthe evidence411NNevidence that412WDTthat is413VBZbe already414RBalready there415EXthere is416VBZbe sufficient417JJsufficient to418TOto find419VVfind third-party420JJthird-party standing421NNstanding .422SENT. This423DTthis Court424NPCourt has425VHZhave squarely426RBsquarely found427VVNfind third-party428JJthird-party standing429NNstanding in430INin at431INat least432JJSleast four433CDfour abortion434NNabortion cases435NNScase that436WDTthat are437VBPbe on438INon point439NNpoint ,440,, as441RBas well442RBwell as443INas a444DTa number445NNnumber of446INof other447JJother cases448NNScase such449JJsuch as450INas Meyer451NPMeyer ,452,, Craig453NPCraig ,454,, Carey455NPCarey ,456,, and457CCand the458DTthe Court459NPCourt 's460POS's cases461NNScase have462VHPhave been463VBNbe consistent464JJconsistent in465INin saying466VVGsay that467IN/thatthat a468DTa plaintiff469NNplaintiff who470WPwho is471VBZbe directly472RBdirectly regulated473VVNregulate by474INby a475DTa law476NNlaw has477VHZhave third-party478JJthird-party standing479NNstanding .480SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]481LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Would482MDwould you483PPyou agree484VVagree with485INwith the486DTthe general487JJgeneral proposition488NNproposition that489IN/thatthat a490DTa party491NNparty should492MDshould not493RBnot be494VBbe able495JJable to496TOto sue497VVsue ostensibly498RBostensibly to499TOto protect500VVprotect the501DTthe rights502NNSright of503INof other504JJother people505NNSpeople ,506,, if507INif there508EXthere is509VBZbe a510DTa real511JJreal conflict512NNconflict of513INof interest514NNinterest between515INbetween the516DTthe party517NNparty who518WPwho is519VBZbe suing520VVGsue and521CCand those522NNSthose whose523WP$whose rights524NNSright the525DTthe party526NNparty claims527VVZclaim to528TOto be529VBbe attempting530VVGattempt to531TOto defend532VVdefend ?533SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]534LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No535NPNo ,536,, Your537PP$your Honor538NPHonor ,539,, not540RBnot if541INif that542DTthat party543NNparty is544VBZbe directly545RBdirectly regulated546VVNregulate by547INby the548DTthe law549NNlaw in550INin question551NNquestion .552SENT. And553CCand ,554,, in555INin fact556NNfact ,557,, this558DTthis Court559NPCourt has560VHZhave allowed561VVNallow third-party562JJthird-party standing563NNstanding in564INin cases565NNScase where566WRBwhere the567DTthe state568NNstate argued569VVDargue that570IN/thatthat the571DTthe third572JJthird parties573NNSparty were574VBDbe protected575VVNprotect by576INby the577DTthe law578NNlaw and579CCand in580INin a581DTa sense582NNsense protected583VVNprotect from584INfrom the585DTthe plaintiffs586NNSplaintiff .587SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]588LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Really589RBreally ?590SENT? That591DTthat 's592VBZbe amazing593JJamazing .594SENT. You595PPyou think596VVPthink that597IN/thatthat if598INif the599DTthe plaintiff600NNplaintiff actually601RBactually has602VHZhave interests603NNSinterest that604WDTthat are605VBPbe directly606RBdirectly contrary607JJcontrary to608TOto those609DTthose of610INof the611DTthe ...612:... those613DTthose individuals614NNSindividual on615INon whose616WP$whose behalf617NNbehalf the618DTthe plaintiff619NNplaintiff is620VBZbe claiming621VVGclaim to622TOto sue623VVsue ,624,, nevertheless625RBnevertheless that626DTthat plaintiff627NNplaintiff can628MDcan have629VHhave standing630NNstanding ?631SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]632LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] If633INif the634DTthe plaintiff635NNplaintiff is636VBZbe directly637RBdirectly regulated638VVNregulate by639INby the640DTthe law641NNlaw .642SENT. This643DTthis Court644NPCourt has645VHZhave allowed646VVNallow an647DTan attorney648NNattorney to649TOto bring650VVbring third-party651JJthird-party claims652NNSclaim against653INagainst a654DTa statute655NNstatute that656WDTthat capped657VVDcap attorneys658NNSattorney '659POS' fees660NNSfee in661INin favor662NNfavor of663INof clients664NNSclient .665SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]666LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well667UHWell ,668,, that669WDTthat 's670VBZbe amazing671JJamazing .672SENT. Let673NNlet 's674VBZbe ...675:... I676PPI mean677VVPmean ...678:... I679PPI ...680:... I681PPI ...682:... suppose683VVPsuppose ...684:... I685PPI know686VVPknow you687PPyou think688VVPthink that689IN/thatthat the690DTthe admitting691VVGadmit privileges692NNSprivilege requirement693NNrequirement serves694VVZserve no695DTno safety696NNsafety purpose697NNpurpose ,698,, but699CCbut suppose700VVPsuppose that701IN/thatthat the702DTthe regulation703NNregulation that704WDTthat was705VBDbe being706VBGbe challenged707VVNchallenge was708VBDbe one709CDone that710IN/thatthat a711DTa lot712NNlot of713INof people714NNSpeople might715MDmight think716VVthink really717RBreally did718VVDdo serve719VVserve a720DTa safety721NNsafety purpose722NNpurpose .723SENT. Let724NPLet 's725POS's say726VVPsay we727PPwe 're728VBPbe in729INin a730DTa state731NNstate where732WRBwhere physicians733NNSphysician '734POS' assistants735NNSassistant can736MDcan perform737VVperform abortions738NNSabortion ,739,, and740CCand a741DTa ...742:... an743DTan abortion744NNabortion clinic745NNclinic wants746VVZwant to747TOto challenge748VVchallenge the749DTthe training750NNtraining requirements751NNSrequirement for752INfor physicians753NNSphysician '754POS' assistants755NNSassistant .756SENT. It757PPit just758RBjust thinks759VVZthink those760DTthose are761VBPbe too762RBtoo onerous763JJonerous and764CCand there765EXthere 's766VBZbe no767DTno justification768NNjustification for769INfor them770PPthem .771SENT. Now772RBnow ,773,, if774INif they775PPthey 're776VBPbe wrong777JJwrong about778INabout that779DTthat ,780,, it781PPit implicates782VVZimplicate the783DTthe interests784NNSinterest of785INof the786DTthe women787NNSwoman who788WPwho may789MDmay want790VVwant to791TOto get792VVget an793DTan abortion794NNabortion ,795,, but796CCbut you797PPyou would798MDwould say799VVsay the800DTthe clinic801NNclinic nevertheless802RBnevertheless can803MDcan sue804VVsue on805INon behalf806NNbehalf of807INof those808DTthose women809NNSwoman ?810SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]811LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] This812NPThis Court813NPCourt has814VHZhave squarely815RBsquarely held816VVNhold in817INin many818JJmany cases819NNScase that820IN/thatthat a821DTa plaintiff822NNplaintiff directly823RBdirectly regulated824VVNregulate by825INby the826DTthe law827NNlaw can828MDcan sue829VVsue ,830,, and831CCand those832DTthose cases833NNScase make834VVPmake sense835NNsense for836INfor at837INat least838JJSleast two839CDtwo reasons840NNSreason ,841,, Your842PP$your Honor843NPHonor .844SENT. First845RBfirst ,846,, because847INbecause a848DTa plaintiff849NNplaintiff should850MDshould not851RBnot be852VBbe subject853JJsubject to854TOto severe855JJsevere penalties856NNSpenalty under857INunder an858DTan unconstitutional859JJunconstitutional rule860NNrule .861SENT. And862CCand ,863,, second864RBsecond ,865,, if866INif the867DTthe plaintiff868NNplaintiff is869VBZbe the870DTthe one871CDone directly872RBdirectly regulated873VVNregulate ,874,, then875RBthen they876PPthey 're877VBPbe ...878:... it879PPit makes880VVZmake sense881NNsense that882IN/thatthat they883PPthey are884VBPbe the885DTthe appropriate886JJappropriate plaintiff887NNplaintiff .888SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]889LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] And890CCand that891DTthat ...892:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]893LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] And894CCand that895DTthat 's896VBZbe clearly897RBclearly true898JJtrue ...899:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]900LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] That901DTthat sounds902NNSsound ...903:... that904WDTthat sounds905VVZsound like906INlike a907DTa direct908JJdirect standing909NNstanding ,910,, not911RBnot third-party912JJthird-party standing913NNstanding .914SENT. But915CCbut in916INin this917DTthis case918NNcase ,919,, is920VBZbe there921RBthere anything922NNanything like923INlike the924DTthe conflict925NNconflict that926IN/thatthat Justice927NPJustice Alito928NPAlito had929VHDhave mentioned930VVNmention ?931SENT? Is932VBZbe there933RBthere a934DTa conflict935NNconflict ?936SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]937LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No938NPNo ,939,, Your940PP$your Honor941NPHonor ,942,, there943EXthere is944VBZbe not945RBnot even946RBeven a947DTa plausible948JJplausible conflict949NNconflict in950INin this951DTthis case952NNcase because953INbecause this954DTthis Court955NPCourt already956RBalready held957VVDhold that958IN/thatthat admitting959VVGadmit privileges960NNSprivilege served961VVDserve no962DTno medical963JJmedical benefit964NNbenefit ,965,, and966CCand the967DTthe district968NNdistrict court969NNcourt here970RBhere ,971,, after972INafter a973DTa trial974NNtrial ,975,, specifically976RBspecifically found977VVDfind that978IN/thatthat this979DTthis law980NNlaw would981MDwould serve982VVserve no983DTno benefit984NNbenefit and985CCand ,986,, in987INin fact988NNfact ,989,, would990MDwould harm991VVharm the992DTthe health993NNhealth of994INof women995NNSwoman in996INin Louisiana997NPLouisiana .998SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]999LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But1000CCbut ,1001,, you1002PPyou know1003VVPknow ,1004,, your1005PP$your argument1006NNargument is1007VBZbe using1008VVGuse the1009DTthe merits1010NNSmerit to1011TOto defeat1012VVdefeat ...1013:... to1014TOto ...1015:... to1016TOto support1017VVsupport standing1018NNstanding .1019SENT. There1020EXthere 's1021VBZbe a1022DTa serious1023JJserious problem1024NNproblem with1025INwith that1026DTthat .1027SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]1028LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No1029NPNo ,1030,, Your1031PP$your Honor1032NPHonor .1033SENT. I1034PPI believe1035VVPbelieve it1036PPit 's1037VBZbe the1038DTthe state1039NNstate that1040WDTthat 's1041VBZbe collapsing1042VVGcollapse standing1043NNstanding and1044CCand merits1045NNSmerit .1046SENT. And1047CCand ,1048,, again1049RBagain ,1050,, this1051DTthis Court1052NPCourt has1053VHZhave allowed1054VVNallow third-party1055JJthird-party standing1056NNstanding in1057INin cases1058NNScase where1059WRBwhere one1060PPone could1061MDcould argue1062VVargue that1063IN/thatthat the1064DTthe state1065NNstate law1066NNlaw in1067INin question1068NNquestion was1069VBDbe protecting1070VVGprotect third1071JJthird parties1072NNSparty from1073INfrom the1074DTthe plaintiffs1075NNSplaintiff .1076SENT. In1077INin addition1078NNaddition to1079TOto Triplett1080NPTriplett ,1081,, that1082WDTthat was1083VBDbe the1084DTthe issue1085NNissue in1086INin Craig1087NPCraig versus1088CCversus Boren1089NPBoren .1090SENT. The1091DTthe law1092NNlaw there1093EXthere was1094VBDbe a1095DTa state1096NNstate law1097NNlaw in1098INin Oklahoma1099NPOklahoma ,1100,, and1101CCand the1102DTthe state1103NNstate claimed1104VVDclaim that1105IN/thatthat it1106PPit was1107VBDbe designed1108VVNdesign to1109TOto protect1110VVprotect young1111JJyoung men1112NNSman from1113INfrom buying1114VVGbuy beer1115NNbeer in1116INin order1117NNorder to1118TOto make1119VVmake sure1120JJsure that1121IN/thatthat they1122PPthey were1123VBDbe safe1124JJsafe and1125CCand did1126VVDdo n't1127RBn't get1128VVget into1129INinto traffic1130NNtraffic accidents1131NNSaccident .1132SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1133LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Counsel1134NPCounsel ...1135:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]1136LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That1137DTthat ...1138:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1139LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...1140:... is1141VBZbe this1142DTthis ...1143:... I1144PPI ...1145:... I1146PPI 'm1147VBPbe just1148RBjust wondering1149VVGwonder ,1150,, are1151VBPbe these1152DTthese doctors1153NNSdoctor in1154INin any1155DTany different1156JJdifferent position1157NNposition than1158INthan potential1159JJpotential plaintiffs1160NNSplaintiff ,1161,, women1162NNSwoman ,1163,, who1164WPwho feel1165VVPfeel burdened1166VVNburden by1167INby this1168DTthis law1169NNlaw ?1170SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1171LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No1172NPNo ,1173,, Your1174PP$your Honor1175NPHonor .1176SENT. And1177CCand ,1178,, in1179INin fact1180NNfact ,1181,, the1182DTthe state1183NNstate has1184VHZhave not1185RBnot pointed1186VVNpoint to1187TOto a1188DTa single1189JJsingle thing1190NNthing that1191WDTthat would1192MDwould have1193VHhave been1194VBNbe different1195JJdifferent if1196INif one1197CDone woman1198NNwoman had1199VHDhave been1200VBNbe joined1201VVNjoin in1202INin this1203DTthis lawsuit1204NNlawsuit .1205SENT. To1206TOTo the1207DTthe contrary1208NNcontrary ,1209,, the1210DTthe issues1211NNSissue that1212IN/thatthat the1213DTthe state1214NNstate says1215VVZsay are1216VBPbe the1217DTthe key1218JJkey issues1219NNSissue in1220INin this1221DTthis case1222NNcase ,1223,, whether1224INwhether this1225DTthis law1226NNlaw serves1227VVZserve health1228NNhealth and1229CCand safety1230NNsafety benefits1231NNSbenefit and1232CCand how1233WRBhow difficult1234JJdifficult it1235PPit is1236VBZbe for1237INfor physicians1238NNSphysician to1239TOto obtain1240VVobtain privileges1241NNSprivilege ,1242,, are1243VBPbe issues1244NNSissue that1245IN/thatthat the1246DTthe physicians1247NNSphysician are1248VBPbe particularly1249RBparticularly well1250RBwell suited1251VVNsuit to1252TOto litigate1253VVlitigate .1254SENT. And1255CCand ,1256,, again1257RBagain ,1258,, this1259DTthis is1260VBZbe a1261DTa law1262NNlaw ...1263:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1264LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So1265INso the1266DTthe point1267NNpoint is1268VBZbe you1269PPyou have1270VHPhave standing1271NNstanding on1272INon behalf1273NNbehalf of1274INof those1275DTthose women1276NNSwoman who1277WPwho feel1278VVPfeel burdened1279VVNburden ?1280SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1281LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes1282NPYes ,1283,, Your1284PP$your Honor1285NPHonor .1286SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]1287LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] To1288TOTo the1289DTthe extent1290NNextent that1291IN/thatthat other1292JJother women1293NNSwoman may1294MDmay not1295RBnot have1296VHhave brought1297VVNbring a1298DTa suit1299NNsuit ,1300,, that1301WDTthat 's1302VBZbe irrelevant1303JJirrelevant to1304TOto the1305DTthe fact1306NNfact that1307IN/thatthat there1308EXthere are1309VBPbe some1310DTsome ,1311,, those1312DTthose burdened1313VVNburden ,1314,, who1315WPwho could1316MDcould have1317VHhave and1318CCand would1319MDwould have1320VHhave ,1321,, if1322INif situations1323NNSsituation had1324VHDhave permitted1325VVNpermit them1326PPthem to1327TOto ?1328SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1329LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That1330DTthat 's1331VBZbe absolutely1332RBabsolutely right1333JJright ...1334:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]1335LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1336UHwell ,1337,, then1338RBthen ...1339:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]1340LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...1341:... Your1342PP$your Honor1343NPHonor .1344SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]1345LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...1346:... why1347WRBwhy can1348MDcan 't1349RB't ...1350:... why1351WRBwhy should1352MDshould n't1353RBn't they1354PPthey be1355VBbe the1356DTthe ones1357NNSone to1358TOto bring1359VVbring suit1360NNsuit ?1361SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1362LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your1363PP$your Honor1364NPHonor ,1365,, this1366DTthis is1367VBZbe a1368DTa law1369NNlaw that1370WDTthat restricts1371VVZrestrict abortion1372NNabortion by1373INby regulating1374VVGregulate the1375DTthe physicians1376NNSphysician ,1377,, rather1378RBrather than1379INthan their1380PP$their patients1381NNSpatient .1382SENT. And1383CCand so1384RBso it1385PPit 's1386VBZbe appropriate1387JJappropriate for1388INfor them1389PPthem to1390TOto be1391VBbe the1392DTthe plaintiffs1393NNSplaintiff here1394RBhere .1395SENT. Again1396RBagain ,1397,, the1398DTthe ...1399:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]1400LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1401UHWell ,1402,, but1403CCbut ...1404:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]1405LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...1406:... state1407NNstate has1408VHZhave pointed1409VVNpoint to1410TOto ...1411:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]1412LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...1413:... the1414DTthe ...1415:... the1416DTthe constitutional1417JJconstitutional right1418NNright at1419INat issue1420NNissue is1421VBZbe not1422RBnot a1423DTa constitutional1424JJconstitutional right1425NNright of1426INof abortion1427NNabortion clinics1428NNSclinic ,1429,, is1430VBZbe it1431PPit ?1432SENT? It1433PPit 's1434VBZbe a1435DTa right1436NNright of1437INof women1438NNSwoman .1439SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]1440LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That1441DTthat 's1442VBZbe correct1443JJcorrect ,1444,, Your1445PP$your Honor1446NPHonor ,1447,, but1448CCbut in1449INin order1450NNorder for1451INfor women1452NNSwoman to1453TOto access1454VVaccess their1455PP$their right1456NNright to1457TOto abortion1458NNabortion ,1459,, they1460PPthey need1461VVPneed to1462TOto be1463VBbe able1464JJable to1465TOto access1466VVaccess those1467DTthose services1468NNSservice .1469SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]1470LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Do1471VVPdo ...1472:... do1473VVPdo you1474PPyou think1475VVPthink a1476DTa party1477NNparty can1478MDcan have1479VHhave third-party1480JJthird-party ...1481:... there1482EXthere can1483MDcan be1484VBbe third-party1485JJthird-party standing1486NNstanding if1487INif there1488EXthere is1489VBZbe no1490DTno hindrance1491NNhindrance whatsoever1492RBwhatsoever to1493TOto the1494DTthe bringing1495NNbringing of1496INof suit1497NNsuit by1498INby the1499DTthe people1500NNSpeople whose1501WP$whose rights1502NNSright are1503VBPbe at1504INat stake1505NNstake ?1506SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1507LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] This1508NPThis Court1509NPCourt has1510VHZhave allowed1511VVNallow third-party1512JJthird-party standing1513NNstanding in1514INin cases1515NNScase where1516WRBwhere the1517DTthe law1518NNlaw directly1519RBdirectly regulates1520VVZregulate the1521DTthe plaintiff1522NNplaintiff without1523INwithout a1524DTa showing1525NNshowing of1526INof hindrance1527NNhindrance .1528SENT. For1529INfor instance1530NNinstance ,1531,, in1532INin Craig1533NPCraig versus1534CCversus Boren1535NPBoren ,1536,, there1537EXthere was1538VBDbe clearly1539RBclearly no1540DTno hindrance1541NNhindrance .1542SENT. But1543CCbut I1544PPI would1545MDwould also1546RBalso say1547VVsay that1548IN/thatthat the1549DTthe Court1550NPCourt does1551VVZdo n't1552RBn't need1553VVneed to1554TOto reach1555VVreach these1556DTthese issues1557NNSissue here1558RBhere because1559INbecause the1560DTthe state1561NNstate strategically1562RBstrategically and1563CCand deliberately1564RBdeliberately waived1565VVNwaive third-party1566JJthird-party standing1567NNstanding .1568SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]1569LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1570UHwell ,1571,, I1572PPI think1573VVPthink that1574WDTthat 's1575VBZbe highly1576RBhighly debatable1577JJdebatable that1578IN/thatthat they1579PPthey waived1580VVDwaive it1581PPit .1582SENT. They1583PPthey certainly1584RBcertainly did1585VVDdo n't1586RBn't raise1587VVraise it1588PPit in1589INin the1590DTthe district1591NNdistrict court1592NNcourt ,1593,, but1594CCbut whether1595INwhether they1596PPthey ...1597:... they1598PPthey affirmatively1599RBaffirmatively waived1600VVDwaive it1601PPit is1602VBZbe quite1603RBquite debatable1604JJdebatable .1605SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]1606LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your1607PP$your Honor1608NPHonor at1609INat JA1610NPJa 451611CD@card@ ,1612,, the1613DTthe state1614NNstate explicitly1615RBexplicitly conceded1616VVDconcede third-party1617JJthird-party standing1618NNstanding and1619CCand urged1620VVDurge the1621DTthe district1622NNdistrict court1623NNcourt to1624TOto reach1625VVreach the1626DTthe undue1627JJundue burden1628NNburden claim1629NNclaim ,1630,, saying1631VVGsay that1632IN/thatthat it1633PPit had1634VHDhave a1635DTa keen1636JJkeen interest1637NNinterest in1638INin removing1639VVGremove any1640DTany cloud1641NNcloud upon1642INupon the1643DTthe validity1644NNvalidity of1645INof its1646PP$its law1647NNlaw ,1648,, that1649IN/thatthat this1650DTthis case1651NNcase was1652VBDbe the1653DTthe proper1654JJproper vehicle1655NNvehicle for1656INfor doing1657VVGdo so1658RBso .1659SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]1660LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] It1661PPit 's1662VBZbe a1663DTa ...1664:... it1665PPit 's1666VBZbe a1667DTa highly1668RBhighly debatable1669JJdebatable interpretation1670NNinterpretation of1671INof that1672DTthat passage1673NNpassage ,1674,, which1675WDTwhich I1676PPI 've1677VHPhave read1678VVNread numerous1679JJnumerous times1680NNStime .1681SENT. What1682WPWhat the1683DTthe state1684NNstate was1685VBDbe saying1686VVGsay was1687VBDbe that1688IN/thatthat the1689DTthe ...1690:... while1691INwhile the1692DTthe temp1693NNtemp ...1694:... if1695INif a1696DTa temporary1697JJtemporary restraining1698NNrestraining order1699NNorder was1700VBDbe issued1701VVNissue ,1702,, the1703DTthe lawsuit1704NNlawsuit should1705MDshould continue1706VVcontinue to1707TOto go1708VVgo forward1709RBforward .1710SENT. And1711CCand they1712PPthey said1713VVDsay there1714EXthere would1715MDwould n't1716RBn't be1717VBbe an1718DTan impediment1719NNimpediment to1720TOto the1721DTthe lawsuit1722NNlawsuit going1723VVGgo forward1724RBforward ,1725,, because1726INbecause the1727DTthe doctors1728NNSdoctor would1729MDwould have1730VHhave standing1731NNstanding .1732SENT. And1733CCand what1734WPwhat I1735PPI think1736VVPthink they1737PPthey may1738MDmay have1739VHhave been1740VBNbe saying1741VVGsay in1742INin that1743DTthat instance1744NNinstance is1745VBZbe that1746IN/thatthat they1747PPthey would1748MDwould have1749VHhave standing1750NNstanding under1751INunder the1752DTthe law1753NNlaw that1754WDTthat was1755VBDbe applicable1756JJapplicable at1757INat that1758DTthat time1759NNtime .1760SENT. We1761PPwe ...1762:... and1763CCand we1764PPwe could1765MDcould debate1766VVdebate what1767WPwhat was1768VBDbe actually1769RBactually said1770VVNsay ,1771,, but1772CCbut I1773PPI think1774VVPthink it1775PPit 's1776VBZbe quite1777RBquite a1778DTa stretch1779NNstretch of1780INof the1781DTthe record1782NNrecord for1783INfor you1784PPyou to1785TOto say1786VVsay there1787EXthere was1788VBDbe an1789DTan affirmative1790JJaffirmative waiver1791NNwaiver .1792SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]1793LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your1794PP$your Honor1795NPHonor ,1796,, at1797INat JA1798NPJa 451799CD@card@ there1800EXthere was1801VBDbe a1802DTa deliberate1803JJdeliberate waiver1804NNwaiver .1805SENT. And1806CCand the1807DTthe ...1808:... and1809CCand the1810DTthe state1811NNstate did1812VVDdo it1813PPit strategically1814RBstrategically because1815INbecause it1816PPit was1817VBDbe attempting1818VVGattempt to1819TOto take1820VVtake advantage1821NNadvantage of1822INof favorable1823JJfavorable Fifth1824NPFifth Circuit1825NPCircuit precedent1826NNprecedent at1827INat the1828DTthe time1829NNtime because1830INbecause the1831DTthe Fifth1832NPFifth Circuit1833NPCircuit had1834VHDhave just1835RBjust upheld1836VVNuphold the1837DTthe Texas1838NPTexas admitting1839VVGadmit privileges1840NNSprivilege law1841NNlaw .1842SENT. Again1843RBagain ,1844,, the1845DTthe state1846NNstate specifically1847RBspecifically urged1848VVDurge the1849DTthe district1850NNdistrict court1851NNcourt to1852TOto decide1853VVdecide the1854DTthe undue1855JJundue burden1856NNburden claim1857NNclaim ,1858,, saying1859VVGsay that1860IN/thatthat this1861DTthis case1862NNcase was1863VBDbe the1864DTthe proper1865JJproper ...1866:... proper1867JJproper vehicle1868NNvehicle for1869INfor resolving1870VVGresolve the1871DTthe constitutional1872JJconstitutional issues1873NNSissue and1874CCand that1875IN/thatthat any1876DTany delay1877NNdelay would1878MDwould n't1879RBn't serve1880VVserve judicial1881JJjudicial efficiency1882NNefficiency .1883SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]1884LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] It1885PPit was1886VBDbe n't1887RBn't raised1888VVNraise in1889INin ...1890:... in1891INin the1892DTthe district1893NNdistrict court1894NNcourt or1895CCor in1896INin the1897DTthe court1898NNcourt of1899INof appeals1900NNSappeal .1901SENT. It1902PPit was1903VBDbe ...1904:... it1905PPit cropped1906VVDcrop up1907RPup in1908INin a1909DTa ...1910:... was1911VBDbe n't1912RBn't it1913PPit a1914DTa cross-petition1915NNcross-petition for1916INfor cert1917NNcert ?1918SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1919LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That1920DTthat 's1921VBZbe correct1922JJcorrect ,1923,, Your1924PP$your Honor1925NPHonor .1926SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]1927LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] And1928CCand might1929MDmight you1930PPyou have1931VHPhave ,1932,, if1933INif you1934PPyou had1935VHDhave a1936DTa timely1937JJtimely notice1938NNnotice ,1939,, just1940RBjust as1941INas insurance1942NNinsurance ,1943,, joined1944VVDjoin a1945DTa patient1946NNpatient or1947CCor two1948CDtwo ?1949SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]1950LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes1951NPYes ,1952,, Your1953PP$your Honor1954NPHonor .1955SENT. And1956CCand ,1957,, in1958INin fact1959NNfact ,1960,, it1961PPit would1962MDwould be1963VBbe profoundly1964RBprofoundly unfair1965JJunfair to1966TOto allow1967VVallow the1968DTthe state1969NNstate to1970TOto raise1971VVraise the1972DTthe objection1973NNobjection for1974INfor the1975DTthe first1976JJfirst time1977NNtime five1978CDfive years1979NNSyear into1980INinto this1981DTthis litigation1982NNlitigation after1983INafter it1984PPit urged1985VVDurge the1986DTthe district1987NNdistrict court1988NNcourt to1989TOto decide1990VVdecide the1991DTthe undue1992JJundue burden1993NNburden claim1994NNclaim and1995CCand then1996RBthen pursued1997VVDpursue the1998DTthe undue1999JJundue burden2000NNburden claim2001NNclaim through2002INthrough multiple2003JJmultiple rounds2004NNSround of2005INof appeals2006NNSappeal .2007SENT. It2008PPit did2009VVDdo n't2010RBn't even2011RBeven raise2012VVraise the2013DTthe issue2014NNissue when2015WRBwhen this2016DTthis case2017NNcase came2018VVDcome before2019INbefore the2020DTthe Court2021NPCourt in2022INin 20162023CD@card@ on2024INon the2025DTthe stay2026NNstay .2027SENT. The2028DTthe first2029JJfirst time2030NNtime that2031IN/thatthat it2032PPit raised2033VVDraise an2034DTan objection2035NNobjection was2036VBDbe when2037WRBwhen it2038PPit filed2039VVDfile its2040PP$its cross-petition2041NNcross-petition for2042INfor cert2043NNcert .2044SENT. And2045CCand ,2046,, again2047RBagain ,2048,, at2049INat JA2050NPJa 452051CD@card@ ,2052,, it2053PPit deliberately2054RBdeliberately and2055CCand strategically2056RBstrategically waived2057VVDwaive this2058DTthis issue2059NNissue .2060SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]2061LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] How2062WRBHow many2063JJmany abortion2064NNabortion cases2065NNScase has2066VHZhave ...2067:... has2068VHZhave the2069DTthe Court2070NPCourt either2071CCeither expressly2072RBexpressly or2073CCor silently2074RBsilently allowed2075VVDallow the2076DTthe doctors2077NNSdoctor to2078TOto sue2079VVsue on2080INon behalf2081NNbehalf of2082INof the2083DTthe women2084NNSwoman ?2085SENT? I2086PPI ...2087:... I2088PPI counted2089VVDcount eight2090CDeight ,2091,, but2092CCbut maybe2093RBmaybe that2094WDTthat 's2095VBZbe overstating2096VVGoverstate it2097PPit .2098SENT. How2099WRBHow many2100JJmany abortion2101NNabortion cases2102NNScase in2103INin this2104DTthis Court2105NPCourt ?2106SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2107LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] At2108INat least2109JJSleast eight2110CDeight ,2111,, Your2112PP$your Honor2113NPHonor .2114SENT. And2115CCand I2116PPI believe2117VVPbelieve at2118INat least2119JJSleast four2120CDfour of2121INof them2122PPthem squarely2123RBsquarely allowed2124VVDallow standing2125VVGstand in2126INin precisely2127RBprecisely these2128DTthese circumstances2129NNScircumstance .2130SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]2131LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] So2132RBso if2133INif we2134PPwe did2135VVDdo n't2136RBn't in2137INin this2138DTthis case2139NNcase ,2140,, it2141PPit would2142MDwould require2143VVrequire either2144RBeither directly2145RBdirectly or2146CCor indirectly2147RBindirectly overruling2148VVGoverrule eight2149CDeight cases2150NNScase of2151INof this2152DTthis Court2153NPCourt ?2154SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2155LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That2156DTthat 's2157VBZbe correct2158JJcorrect .2159SENT. And2160CCand ,2161,, in2162INin fact2163NNfact ,2164,, in2165INin Danforth2166NPDanforth and2167CCand Akron2168NPAkron the2169DTthe same2170JJsame type2171NNtype of2172INof law2173NNlaw was2174VBDbe at2175INat issue2176NNissue .2177SENT. It2178PPit was2179VBDbe a2180DTa law2181NNlaw that2182IN/thatthat the2183DTthe state2184NNstate claimed2185VVDclaim was2186VBDbe designed2187VVNdesign to2188TOto protect2189VVprotect the2190DTthe health2191NNhealth and2192CCand safety2193NNsafety of2194INof women2195NNSwoman but2196CCbut the2197DTthe Court2198NPCourt allowed2199VVDallow the2200DTthe physicians2201NNSphysician to2202TOto bring2203VVbring the2204DTthe claim2205NNclaim and2206CCand to2207TOto show2208VVshow that2209IN/thatthat ,2210,, in2211INin fact2212NNfact ,2213,, the2214DTthe law2215NNlaw did2216VVDdo n't2217RBn't further2218JJRfurther health2219NNhealth and2220CCand safety2221NNsafety .2222SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]2223LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] In2224INin how2225WRBhow many2226JJmany of2227INof those2228DTthose cases2229NNScase did2230VVDdo the2231DTthe Court2232NPCourt discuss2233VVdiscuss the2234DTthe issue2235NNissue of2236INof conflict2237NNconflict of2238INof interest2239NNinterest ?2240SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2241LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] The2242DTthe Court2243NPCourt in2244INin Danforth2245NPDanforth specifically2246RBspecifically said2247VVDsay that2248IN/thatthat the2249DTthe plaintiffs2250NNSplaintiff had2251VHDhave standing2252NNstanding .2253SENT. It2254PPit was2255VBDbe n't2256RBn't discussed2257VVNdiscuss in2258INin terms2259NNSterm of2260INof the2261DTthe words2262NNSword conflict2263NNconflict ,2264,, Your2265PP$your Honor2266NPHonor ,2267,, but2268CCbut ,2269,, again2270RBagain ,2271,, the2272DTthe same2273JJsame types2274NNStype of2275INof arguments2276NNSargument were2277VBDbe in2278INin front2279NNfront of2280INof the2281DTthe Court2282NPCourt ...2283:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]2284LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Was2285VBDbe it2286PPit ...2287:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]2288LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...2289:... because2290INbecause the2291DTthe state2292NNstate ...2293:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]2294LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Was2295VBDbe it2296PPit a2297DTa footnote2298NNfootnote in2299INin Danforth2300NPDanforth ?2301SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2302LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] I2303PPI do2304VVPdo n't2305RBn't believe2306VVbelieve so2307RBso ,2308,, Your2309PP$your Honor2310NPHonor .2311SENT. I2312PPI believe2313VVPbelieve it2314PPit was2315VBDbe a2316DTa foot2317NNfoot ...2318:... footnote2319NNfootnote in2320INin Akron2321NPAkron but2322CCbut in2323INin Danforth2324NPDanforth it2325PPit was2326VBDbe ...2327:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]2328LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Yeah2329NPYeah ,2330,, but2331CCbut ...2332:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]2333LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] You2334PPyou made2335VVDmake a2336DTa point2337NNpoint about2338INabout Craig2339NPCraig against2340INagainst Boren2341NPBoren ,2342,, that2343IN/thatthat the2344DTthe ostensible2345JJostensible purpose2346NNpurpose of2347INof the2348DTthe law2349NNlaw was2350VBDbe to2351TOto save2352VVsave the2353DTthe vulnerable2354JJvulnerable young2355JJyoung men2356NNSman from2357INfrom the2358DTthe evils2359NNSevil of2360INof 32361CD3 .2362SENT. 22363CD2 beer2364NNbeer ?2365SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2366LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That2367DTthat 's2368VBZbe correct2369JJcorrect ,2370,, Your2371PP$your Honor2372NPHonor ,2373,, and2374CCand the2375DTthe Court2376NPCourt allowed2377VVDallow the2378DTthe saloon2379NNsaloon keeper2380NNkeeper to2381TOto bring2382VVbring the2383DTthe third-party2384JJthird-party standing2385NNstanding claim2386NNclaim .2387SENT. Again2388RBagain ,2389,, in2390INin Triplet2391NPTriplet the2392DTthe Court2393NPCourt allowed2394VVDallow an2395DTan attorney2396NNattorney to2397TOto challenge2398VVchallenge a2399DTa law2400NNlaw designed2401VVNdesign to2402TOto cap2403VVcap attorneys2404NNSattorney '2405POS' fees2406NNSfee .2407SENT. And2408CCand in2409INin Carey2410NPCarey the2411DTthe Court2412NPCourt allowed2413VVDallow a2414DTa mail2415NNmail order2416NNorder contraceptive2417JJcontraceptive company2418NNcompany to2419TOto challenge2420VVchallenge a2421DTa law2422NNlaw that2423WDTthat was2424VBDbe designed2425VVNdesign to2426TOto limit2427VVlimit the2428DTthe prescription2429NNprescription of2430INof contraceptives2431NNScontraceptive to2432TOto pharmacists2433NNSpharmacist ,2434,, again2435RBagain ,2436,, claiming2437VVGclaim that2438IN/thatthat that2439DTthat was2440VBDbe about2441RBabout protecting2442VVGprotect the2443DTthe health2444NNhealth and2445CCand safety2446NNsafety of2447INof people2448NNSpeople .2449SENT. So2450INso the2451DTthe Court2452NPCourt has2453VHZhave allowed2454VVNallow third-party2455JJthird-party standing2456NNstanding in2457INin many2458JJmany cases2459NNScase that2460WDTthat are2461VBPbe squarely2462RBsquarely on2463INon point2464NNpoint .2465SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2466LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Counsel2467NPCounsel ,2468,, do2469VVPdo you2470PPyou agree2471VVPagree that2472IN/thatthat the2473DTthe inquiry2474NNinquiry under2475INunder Hellerstedt2476NPHellerstedt is2477VBZbe a2478DTa factual2479JJfactual one2480CDone that2481WDTthat has2482VHZhave to2483TOto proceed2484VVproceed state-by-state2485NNstate-by-state ?2486SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2487LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your2488PP$your Honor2489NPHonor ,2490,, I2491PPI think2492VVPthink that2493IN/thatthat facts2494NNSfact may2495MDmay vary2496VVvary ,2497,, but2498CCbut what2499WPwhat we2500PPwe know2501VVPknow is2502VBZbe that2503IN/thatthat the2504DTthe district2505NNdistrict court2506NNcourt held2507VVDhold a2508DTa trial2509NNtrial here2510RBhere and2511CCand found2512VVDfind that2513IN/thatthat there2514EXthere were2515VBDbe no2516DTno material2517NNmaterial differences2518NNSdifference between2519INbetween this2520DTthis case2521NNcase and2522CCand ...2523:...

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2524LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] No2525UHNo ,2526,, no2527UHno ,2528,, I2529PPI know2530VVPknow ,2531,, but2532CCbut if2533INif ...2534:... if2535INif the2536DTthe issue2537NNissue ,2538,, the2539DTthe statutes2540NNSstatute are2541VBPbe on2542INon the2543DTthe books2544NNSbook in2545INin other2546JJother states2547NNSstate ,2548,, and2549CCand if2550INif the2551DTthe issues2552NNSissue are2553VBPbe raised2554VVNraise there2555RBthere ,2556,, is2557VBZbe the2558DTthe same2559JJsame inquiry2560NNinquiry required2561VVNrequire in2562INin each2563DTeach case2564NNcase ?2565SENT? You2566PPyou have2567VHPhave to2568TOto have2569VHhave the2570DTthe district2571NNdistrict court2572NNcourt examine2573VVexamine the2574DTthe availability2575NNavailability of2576INof specific2577JJspecific clinics2578NNSclinic and2579CCand the2580DTthe admitting2581VVGadmit privileges2582NNSprivilege of2583INof doctors2584NNSdoctor so2585RBso that2586IN/thatthat the2587DTthe litigation2588NNlitigation could2589MDcould be2590VBbe ...2591:... the2592DTthe results2593NNSresult could2594MDcould be2595VBbe different2596JJdifferent in2597INin different2598JJdifferent states2599NNSstate ?2600SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2601LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Two2602CDTwo points2603NNSpoint ,2604,, if2605INif I2606PPI may2607MDmay ,2608,, Your2609PP$your Honor2610NPHonor .2611SENT. This2612DTthis Court2613NPCourt held2614VVDhold in2615INin Whole2616JJwhole Woman2617NPWoman 's2618POS's Health2619NNhealth that2620IN/thatthat the2621DTthe Texas2622NPTexas admitting2623VVGadmit privileges2624NNSprivilege law2625NNlaw was2626VBDbe medically2627RBmedically unnecessary2628JJunnecessary and2629CCand its2630PP$its burdens2631NNSburden were2632VBDbe undue2633JJundue .2634SENT. That2635DTthat holding2636NNholding should2637MDshould clearly2638RBclearly apply2639VVapply to2640TOto Louisiana2641NPLouisiana 's2642POS's identical2643JJidentical law2644NNlaw ,2645,, and2646CCand certainly2647RBcertainly the2648DTthe Court2649NPCourt 's2650POS's reasoning2651NNreasoning is2652VBZbe applicable2653JJapplicable in2654INin Louisiana2655NPLouisiana .2656SENT. Now2657RBnow ,2658,, the2659DTthe burdens2660NNSburden of2661INof a2662DTa law2663NNlaw may2664MDmay vary2665VVvary ,2666,, but2667CCbut a2668DTa law2669NNlaw that2670WDTthat has2671VHZhave no2672DTno benefits2673NNSbenefit and2674CCand does2675VVZdo n't2676RBn't serve2677VVserve any2678DTany valid2679JJvalid state2680NNstate interest2681NNinterest is2682VBZbe much2683RBmuch more2684RBRmore likely2685JJlikely to2686TOto impose2687VVimpose an2688DTan undue2689JJundue burden2690NNburden .2691SENT. And2692CCand ...2693:...

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2694LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] If2695INif a2696DTa ...2697:... if2698INif a2699DTa state2700NNstate passed2701VVDpass an2702DTan admitting2703VVGadmit privileges2704NNSprivilege law2705NNlaw therefor2706RBtherefor ,2707,, and2708CCand suppose2709VVPsuppose a2710DTa state2711NNstate had2712VHDhave ten2713CDten clinics2714NNSclinic and2715CCand two2716CDtwo doctors2717NNSdoctor for2718INfor each2719DTeach clinic2720NNclinic ,2721,, but2722CCbut all2723DTall 202724CD@card@ doctors2725NNSdoctor could2726MDcould easily2727RBeasily get2728VVget the2729DTthe admitting2730VVGadmit privileges2731NNSprivilege ,2732,, so2733RBso that2734IN/thatthat there2735EXthere 'd2736MDwould be2737VBbe no2738DTno effect2739NNeffect on2740INon the2741DTthe clinics2742NNSclinic ,2743,, no2744DTno effect2745NNeffect on2746INon the2747DTthe doctors2748NNSdoctor who2749WPwho perform2750VVPperform abortions2751NNSabortion ,2752,, and2753CCand ,2754,, therefore2755RBtherefore ,2756,, no2757DTno effect2758NNeffect on2759INon the2760DTthe women2761NNSwoman who2762WPwho obtain2763VVPobtain abortions2764NNSabortion ,2765,, would2766MDwould a2767DTa law2768NNlaw be2769VBbe constitutional2770JJconstitutional in2771INin that2772DTthat state2773NNstate ?2774SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2775LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That2776DTthat law2777NNlaw may2778MDmay still2779RBstill be2780VBbe unconstitutional2781JJunconstitutional if2782INif it2783PPit 's2784VBZbe restricting2785VVGrestrict access2786NNaccess because2787INbecause of2788INof the2789DTthe 30-mile2790JJ30-mile limit2791NNlimit ,2792,, Your2793PP$your Honor2794NPHonor ,2795,, but2796CCbut that2797DTthat 's2798VBZbe very2799RBvery different2800JJdifferent from2801INfrom the2802DTthe situation2803NNsituation here2804RBhere where2805WRBwhere the2806DTthe district2807NNdistrict court2808NNcourt concluded2809VVDconclude ...2810:...

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]2811LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] If2812INif it2813PPit did2814VVDdo n't2815RBn't ...2816:... I2817PPI 'm2818VBPbe sorry2819JJsorry to2820TOto interrupt2821VVinterrupt ...2822:... if2823INif it2824PPit did2825VVDdo n't2826RBn't ,2827,, though2828RBthough ,2829,, put2830VVput aside2831RPaside the2832DTthe 30-mile2833JJ30-mile ,2834,, assume2835VVassume all2836PDTall the2837DTthe doctors2838NNSdoctor who2839WPwho currently2840RBcurrently perform2841VVPperform abortions2842NNSabortion can2843MDcan obtain2844VVobtain admitting2845VVGadmit privileges2846NNSprivilege ,2847,, could2848MDcould you2849PPyou say2850VVPsay that2851IN/thatthat the2852DTthe law2853NNlaw still2854RBstill imposes2855VVZimpose an2856DTan undue2857JJundue burden2858NNburden ,2859,, even2860RBeven if2861INif there2862EXthere were2863VBDbe no2864DTno effect2865NNeffect ?2866SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2867LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That2868DTthat law2869NNlaw would2870MDwould have2871VHhave no2872DTno benefit2873NNbenefit ,2874,, Your2875PP$your Honor2876NPHonor ,2877,, and2878CCand it2879PPit may2880MDmay pose2881VVpose a2882DTa much2883RBmuch harder2884JJRhard question2885NNquestion than2886INthan this2887DTthis case2888NNcase .2889SENT. But2890CCbut in2891INin this2892DTthis case2893NNcase the2894DTthe district2895NNdistrict court2896NNcourt after2897INafter a2898DTa trial2899NNtrial explicitly2900RBexplicitly found2901VVDfind that2902IN/thatthat the2903DTthe burdens2904NNSburden of2905INof this2906DTthis law2907NNlaw would2908MDwould be2909VBbe severe2910JJsevere ,2911,, and2912CCand it2913PPit would2914MDwould leave2915VVleave only2916RBonly one2917CDone physician2918NNphysician to2919TOto serve2920VVserve 10,0002921CD@card@ people2922NNSpeople per2923INper year2924NNyear in2925INin the2926DTthe entire2927JJentire state2928NNstate .2929SENT. And2930CCand the2931DTthe ...2932:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]2933LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well2934UHWell ,2935,, the2936DTthe Fifth2937NPFifth Circuit2938NPCircuit went2939VVDgo through2940INthrough what2941WPwhat the2942DTthe district2943NNdistrict court2944NNcourt had2945VHDhave said2946VVNsay about2947INabout the2948DTthe various2949JJvarious doctors2950NNSdoctor .2951SENT. And2952CCand it2953PPit was2954VBDbe proper2955JJproper for2956INfor the2957DTthe Fifth2958NPFifth Circuit2959NPCircuit to2960TOto review2961VVreview the2962DTthe district2963NNdistrict court2964NNcourt 's2965POS's findings2966NNSfinding for2967INfor clear2968JJclear error2969NNerror ,2970,, was2971VBDbe it2972PPit not2973RBnot ?2974SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]2975LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes2976NPYes ,2977,, Your2978PP$your Honor2979NPHonor .2980SENT. Clear2981JJclear error2982NNerror is2983VBZbe the2984DTthe standard2985NNstandard .2986SENT. And2987CCand we2988PPwe believe2989VVPbelieve that2990IN/thatthat the2991DTthe district2992NNdistrict court2993NNcourt 's2994POS's findings2995NNSfinding are2996VBPbe more2997JJRmore than2998INthan plausible2999JJplausible under3000INunder the3001DTthe standard3002NNstandard here3003RBhere .3004SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3005LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well3006UHwell ,3007,, let3008VVlet 's3009VBZbe take3010VVtake one3011CDone example3012NNexample .3013SENT. Let3014VVlet 's3015VBZbe take3016VVtake Doe3017NPDoe Number3018NPNumber 23019CD2 .3020SENT. Doe3021NPDoe Number3022NPNumber 23023CD2 is3024VBZbe a3025DTa plaintiff3026NNplaintiff in3027INin this3028DTthis case3029NNcase ,3030,, right3031RBright ?3032SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3033LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes3034NPYes ,3035,, Your3036PP$your Honor3037NPHonor .3038SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3039LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So3040INso he3041PPhe had3042VHDhave ...3043:... he3044PPhe did3045VVDdo n't3046RBn't have3047VHhave ...3048:... it3049PPit would3050MDwould be3051VBbe counter3052JJcounter to3053TOto his3054PP$his own3055JJown interests3056NNSinterest for3057INfor him3058PPhim to3059TOto make3060VVmake a3061DTa super3062JJsuper effort3063NNeffort to3064TOto get3065VVget admitting3066VVGadmit privileges3067NNSprivilege ,3068,, would3069MDwould n't3070RBn't it3071PPit ,3072,, because3073INbecause he3074PPhe 'd3075MDwould be3076VBbe defeating3077VVGdefeat his3078PP$his own3079JJown claim3080NNclaim ?3081SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3082LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No3083NPNo ,3084,, Your3085PP$your Honor3086NPHonor .3087SENT. Doe3088NPDoe 23089CD2 's3090POS's ...3091:... brought3092VVDbring this3093DTthis lawsuit3094NNlawsuit to3095TOto protect3096VVprotect the3097DTthe rights3098NNSright of3099INof his3100PP$his patients3101NNSpatient .3102SENT. And3103CCand the3104DTthe district3105NNdistrict court3106NNcourt found3107VVDfind that3108IN/thatthat he3109PPhe was3110VBDbe competent3111JJcompetent and3112CCand qualified3113JJqualified and3114CCand that3115IN/thatthat he3116PPhe made3117VVDmake good3118JJgood faith3119NNfaith efforts3120NNSeffort to3121TOto obtain3122VVobtain ...3123:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]3124LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All3125DTall right3126NNright .3127SENT. So3128RBso if3129INif ...3130:... all3131DTall right3132NNright .3133SENT. We3134PPwe can3135MDcan argue3136VVargue about3137RBabout whether3138INwhether he3139PPhe had3140VHDhave a3141DTa conflict3142NNconflict of3143INof interest3144NNinterest or3145CCor not3146RBnot .3147SENT. He3148PPhe previously3149RBpreviously had3150VHDhave admitting3151VVGadmit privileges3152NNSprivilege at3153INat a3154DTa hospital3155NNhospital in3156INin the3157DTthe Shreveport3158NPShreveport area3159NNarea ,3160,, did3161VVDdo he3162PPhe not3163RBnot ?3164SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3165LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes3166NPYes ,3167,, Your3168PP$your Honor3169NPHonor .3170SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3171LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] A3172DTa predecessor3173NNpredecessor of3174INof Christus3175NPChristus Schumpert3176NPSchumpert ?3177SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3178LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes3179NPYes ,3180,, Your3181PP$your Honor3182NPHonor .3183SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3184LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] He3185PPhe testified3186VVDtestify that3187IN/thatthat he3188PPhe did3189VVDdo n't3190RBn't apply3191VVapply for3192INfor admitting3193VVGadmit privileges3194NNSprivilege there3195RBthere because3196INbecause it3197PPit 's3198VBZbe a3199DTa Catholic3200JJCatholic hospital3201NNhospital ;3202:; is3203VBZbe n't3204RBn't that3205DTthat right3206NNright ?3207SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3208LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3209DTthat was3210VBDbe part3211NNpart of3212INof the3213DTthe testimony3214NNtestimony .3215SENT. But3216CCbut ,3217,, in3218INin addition3219NNaddition ,3220,, the3221DTthe bylaws3222NNSbylaw of3223INof that3224DTthat hospital3225NNhospital showed3226VVDshow that3227IN/thatthat there3228EXthere would3229MDwould be3230VBbe admissions3231NNSadmission requirements3232NNSrequirement that3233IN/thatthat Doe3234NPDoe 23235CD2 could3236MDcould n't3237RBn't meet3238VVmeet .3239SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3240LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All3241DTall right3242NNright .3243SENT. Well3244UHwell ,3245,, he3246PPhe testified3247VVDtestify directly3248RBdirectly :3249:: I3250PPI did3251VVDdo not3252RBnot apply3253VVapply there3254RBthere because3255INbecause it3256PPit 's3257VBZbe a3258DTa Catholic3259JJCatholic hospital3260NNhospital .3261SENT. Is3262VBZbe that3263IN/thatthat not3264RBnot correct3265JJcorrect ?3266SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3267LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3268DTthat 's3269VBZbe correct3270JJcorrect ,3271,, Your3272PP$your Honor3273NPHonor .3274SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3275LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] All3276DTall right3277NNright .3278SENT. Doe3279NPDoe Number3280NPNumber performs3281VVZperform abortions3282NNSabortion ,3283,, does3284VVZdo he3285PPhe not3286RBnot ?3287SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3288LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes3289NPYes .3290SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3291LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Doe3292NPDoe Number3293NPNumber 33294CD3 has3295VHZhave admitting3296VVGadmit privileges3297NNSprivilege there3298RBthere ?3299SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3300LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] He3301PPhe has3302VHZhave admitting3303VVGadmit privileges3304NNSprivilege that3305WDTthat require3306VVPrequire 503307CD@card@ admissions3308NNSadmission per3309INper year3310NNyear which3311WDTwhich he3312PPhe is3313VBZbe able3314JJable to3315TOto satisfy3316VVsatisfy because3317INbecause he3318PPhe has3319VHZhave an3320DTan obstetrics3321NNobstetrics practice3322NNpractice .3323SENT. And3324CCand that3325DTthat 's3326VBZbe why3327WRBwhy he3328PPhe was3329VBDbe the3330DTthe only3331JJonly physician3332NNphysician with3333INwith privileges3334NNSprivilege .3335SENT. The3336DTthe state3337NNstate 's3338POS's own3339JJown credentialing3340NNcredentialing expert3341NNexpert in3342INin this3343DTthis case3344NNcase conceded3345VVDconcede that3346IN/thatthat outpatient3347NNoutpatient physicians3348NNSphysician like3349INlike these3350DTthese who3351WPwho never3352RBnever intend3353VVPintend to3354TOto treat3355VVtreat patients3356NNSpatient in3357INin the3358DTthe hospital3359NNhospital will3360MDwill not3361RBnot be3362VBbe able3363JJable to3364TOto get3365VVget privileges3366NNSprivilege ,3367,, and3368CCand the3369DTthe hospital3370NNhospital bylaws3371NNSbylaw included3372VVDinclude many3373JJmany criteria3374NNScriterion that3375IN/thatthat these3376DTthese physicians3377NNSphysician could3378MDcould never3379RBnever satisfy3380VVsatisfy ...3381:...

[JUSTICE ALITO]3382LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] When3383WRBwhen Doe3384NPDoe ...3385:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]3386LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...3387:... including3388VVGinclude residency3389NNresidency .3390SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3391LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...3392:... Number3393NNnumber 23394CD2 explained3395VVDexplain why3396WRBwhy he3397PPhe did3398VVDdo n't3399RBn't apply3400VVapply to3401TOto this3402DTthis hospital3403NNhospital ,3404,, he3405PPhe said3406VVDsay ,3407,, in3408INin part3409NNpart ,3410,, because3411INbecause it3412PPit 's3413VBZbe not3414RBnot a3415DTa place3416NNplace where3417WRBwhere I3418PPI would3419MDwould feel3420VVfeel comfortable3421JJcomfortable .3422SENT. did3423VVDdo n't3424RBn't he3425PPhe say3426VVPsay that3427RBthat ?3428SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3429LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] He3430PPhe did3431VVDdo ,3432,, Your3433PP$your Honor3434NPHonor .3435SENT. Doe3436NPDoe 23437CD2 focused3438VVDfocus his3439PP$his efforts3440NNSeffort on3441INon hospitals3442NNShospital where3443WRBwhere he3444PPhe thought3445VVDthink he3446PPhe had3447VHDhave the3448DTthe best3449JJSgood chance3450NNchance of3451INof obtaining3452VVGobtain privileges3453NNSprivilege .3454SENT. He3455PPhe had3456VHDhave had3457VHNhave privileges3458NNSprivilege at3459INat LSU3460NPLSU and3461CCand was3462VBDbe n't3463RBn't even3464RBeven able3465JJable to3466TOto get3467VVget privileges3468NNSprivilege there3469RBthere .3470SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]3471LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Did3472VVDdo the3473DTthe district3474NNdistrict court3475NNcourt mention3476VVmention any3477DTany of3478INof these3479DTthese facts3480NNSfact ?3481SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]3482LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes3483NPYes ,3484,, Your3485PP$your Honor3486NPHonor .3487SENT. The3488DTthe district3489NNdistrict court3490NNcourt 's3491POS's opinion3492NNopinion was3493VBDbe very3494RBvery careful3495JJcareful ,3496,, and3497CCand its3498PP$its ...3499:... its3500PP$its decision3501NNdecision and3502CCand finding3503VVGfind that3504IN/thatthat these3505DTthese physicians3506NNSphysician would3507MDwould not3508RBnot be3509VBbe able3510JJable to3511TOto get3512VVget privileges3513NNSprivilege was3514VBDbe based3515VVNbase on3516INon at3517INat least3518JJSleast four3519CDfour points3520NNSpoint .3521SENT. One3522CDOne ,3523,, the3524DTthe fact3525NNfact that3526IN/thatthat they3527PPthey applied3528VVDapply and3529CCand attempted3530VVDattempt to3531TOto get3532VVget privileges3533NNSprivilege at3534INat 153535CD@card@ hospitals3536NNShospital over3537INover one-and-a-half3538NNone-and-a-half years3539NNSyear .3540SENT. Two3541CDTwo ,3542,, that3543IN/thatthat the3544DTthe state3545NNstate 's3546POS's key3547JJkey credentialing3548NNcredentialing expert3549NNexpert conceded3550VVDconcede that3551IN/thatthat physicians3552NNSphysician who3553WPwho never3554RBnever intended3555VVDintend to3556TOto treat3557VVtreat patients3558NNSpatient in3559INin the3560DTthe hospital3561NNhospital will3562MDwill not3563RBnot get3564VVget privileges3565NNSprivilege .3566SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3567LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Footnote3568NNfootnote :3569:: That3570WDTthat 's3571VBZbe Doctor3572NPDoctor Number3573NPNumber 63574CD6 .3575SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]3576LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] All3577NPAll of3578INof these3579DTthese physicians3580NNSphysician are3581VBPbe outpatient3582NNoutpatient physicians3583NNSphysician ,3584,, Your3585PP$your Honor3586NPHonor .3587SENT. I3588PPI think3589VVPthink ...3590:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3591LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No3592NPNo ,3593,, but3594CCbut Number3595NPNumber 63596CD6 is3597VBZbe only3598RBonly a3599DTa medical3600JJmedical doctor3601NNdoctor .3602SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]3603LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3604DTthat 's3605VBZbe correct3606JJcorrect .3607SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3608LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] He3609PPhe has3610VHZhave n't3611RBn't done3612VVNdo any3613DTany surgical3614JJsurgical procedures3615NNSprocedure since3616INsince 20043617CD@card@ and3618CCand 20053619CD@card@ .3620SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]3621LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3622DTthat 's3623VBZbe correct3624JJcorrect .3625SENT. And3626CCand the3627DTthe state3628NNstate 's3629POS's expert3630NNexpert also3631RBalso conceded3632VVDconcede that3633IN/thatthat a3634DTa physician3635NNphysician who3636WPwho provides3637VVZprovide only3638JJonly medication3639NNmedication and3640CCand counseling3641NNcounseling would3642MDwould never3643RBnever be3644VBbe able3645JJable to3646TOto get3647VVget privileges3648NNSprivilege .3649SENT. In3650INin addition3651NNaddition ,3652,, the3653DTthe district3654NNdistrict court3655NNcourt 's3656POS's burdens3657NNSburden findings3658NNSfinding were3659VBDbe supported3660VVNsupport by3661INby what3662WPwhat happened3663VVDhappen when3664WRBwhen this3665DTthis law3666NNlaw actually3667RBactually took3668VVDtake effect3669NNeffect for3670INfor a3671DTa brief3672JJbrief time3673NNtime in3674INin 20163675CD@card@ and3676CCand abortion3677NNabortion access3678NNaccess in3679INin Louisiana3680NPLouisiana was3681VBDbe devastated3682VVNdevastate .3683SENT. And3684CCand ,3685,, of3686INof course3687NNcourse ,3688,, the3689DTthe finding3690NNfinding of3691INof every3692DTevery district3693NNdistrict court3694NNcourt that3695WDTthat has3696VHZhave held3697VVNhold a3698DTa trial3699NNtrial on3700INon a3701DTa similar3702JJsimilar law3703NNlaw has3704VHZhave been3705VBNbe that3706IN/thatthat these3707DTthese laws3708NNSlaw will3709MDwill restrict3710VVrestrict access3711NNaccess to3712TOto abortion3713NNabortion .3714SENT. And3715CCand here3716RBhere the3717DTthe district3718NNdistrict court3719NNcourt found3720VVDfind that3721IN/thatthat this3722DTthis law3723NNlaw would3724MDwould leave3725VVleave Louisiana3726NPLouisiana with3727INwith just3728RBjust one3729CDone clinic3730NNclinic in3731INin one3732CDone state3733NNstate to3734TOto serve3735VVserve about3736RBabout 10,0003737CD@card@ people3738NNSpeople per3739INper year3740NNyear .3741SENT. And3742CCand that3743WDTthat would3744MDwould mean3745VVmean that3746IN/thatthat hundreds3747NNShundred of3748INof thousands3749NNSthousand of3750INof women3751NNSwoman would3752MDwould now3753RBnow live3754VVlive more3755JJRmore than3756INthan 1503757CD@card@ miles3758NNSmile from3759INfrom the3760DTthe closest3761JJSclose provider3762NNprovider .3763SENT. And3764CCand the3765DTthe burdens3766NNSburden were3767VBDbe actually3768RBactually more3769RBRmore severe3770JJsevere than3771INthan this3772DTthis Court3773NPCourt found3774VVDfind in3775INin Whole3776JJwhole Woman3777NPWoman 's3778POS's Health3779NPHealth .3780SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3781LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Can3782MDcan we3783PPwe go3784VVgo to3785TOto Doe3786NPDoe 33787CD3 ,3788,, the3789DTthe doctor3790NNdoctor who3791WPwho had3792VHDhave the3793DTthe active3794JJactive OB-GYN3795NPOB-GYN practice3796NNpractice ?3797SENT? He3798PPhe 's3799VBZbe only3800RBonly a3801DTa part-time3802JJpart-time doctor3803NNdoctor in3804INin Hope3805NPHope .3806SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]3807LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3808DTthat 's3809VBZbe correct3810JJcorrect .3811SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]3812LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] There3813EXthere 's3814VHZhave been3815VBNbe much3816JJmuch talk3817NNtalk about3818INabout his3819PP$his statement3820NNstatement or3821CCor findings3822NNSfinding by3823INby the3824DTthe district3825NNdistrict court3826NNcourt that3827IN/thatthat he3828PPhe was3829VBDbe a3830DTa superseding3831VVGsupersede cause3832NNcause to3833TOto the3834DTthe Act3835NPAct because3836INbecause he3837PPhe ,3838,, on3839INon his3840PP$his own3841JJown ,3842,, will3843MDwill not3844RBnot practice3845VVpractice in3846INin that3847DTthat ...3848:... in3849INin Hope3850NPHope if3851INif this3852DTthis law3853NNlaw goes3854VVZgo into3855INinto effect3856NNeffect because3857INbecause he3858PPhe would3859MDwould be3860VBbe the3861DTthe only3862JJonly doctor3863NNdoctor .3864SENT. But3865CCbut putting3866VVGput that3867IN/thatthat aside3868RBaside ,3869,, he3870PPhe also3871RBalso testified3872VVDtestify ...3873:... I3874PPI 'm3875VBPbe sorry3876JJsorry ...3877:... the3878DTthe Hope3879NPHope manager3880NNmanager testified3881VVDtestify that3882IN/thatthat he3883PPhe only3884RBonly does3885VVZdo a3886DTa limited3887JJlimited number3888NNnumber of3889INof abortions3890NNSabortion ,3891,, and3892CCand without3893INwithout the3894DTthe other3895JJother doctor3896NNdoctor ,3897,, that3898DTthat clinic3899NNclinic would3900MDwould have3901VHhave to3902TOto close3903VVclose .3904SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]3905LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That3906DTthat 's3907VBZbe absolutely3908RBabsolutely right3909RBright ,3910,, Your3911PP$your Honor3912NPHonor .3913SENT. The3914DTthe district3915NNdistrict court3916NNcourt found3917VVDfind that3918IN/thatthat without3919INwithout Doe3920NPDoe 13921CD1 ,3922,, the3923DTthe primary3924JJprimary provider3925NNprovider at3926INat Hope3927NPHope ,3928,, Hope3929NPHope would3930MDwould not3931RBnot be3932VBbe a3933DTa viable3934JJviable going3935VVGgo concern3936NNconcern .3937SENT. So3938RBso regardless3939RBregardless of3940INof Doe3941NPDoe 33942CD3 's3943POS's testimony3944NNtestimony ,3945,, Hope3946NPHope would3947MDwould have3948VHhave to3949TOto close3950VVclose because3951INbecause Doe3952NPDoe 33953CD3 was3954VBDbe providing3955VVGprovide fewer3956JJRfew than3957INthan 303958CD@card@ percent3959NNpercent of3960INof the3961DTthe abortion3962NNabortion services3963NNSservice of3964INof that3965DTthat clinic3966NNclinic .3967SENT. The3968DTthe primary3969JJprimary provider3970NNprovider was3971VBDbe unable3972JJunable to3973TOto get3974VVget privileges3975NNSprivilege ,3976,, and3977CCand Hope3978NPHope would3979MDwould close3980VVclose ,3981,, meaning3982VVGmean that3983IN/thatthat women3984NNSwoman living3985VVGlive in3986INin northern3987JJnorthern Louisiana3988NPLouisiana would3989MDwould now3990RBnow have3991VHhave to3992TOto travel3993VVtravel hundreds3994NNShundred of3995INof additional3996JJadditional miles3997NNSmile ,3998,, for3999INfor a4000DTa law4001NNlaw that4002WDTthat has4003VHZhave no4004DTno benefit4005NNbenefit ,4006,, in4007INin order4008NNorder to4009TOto access4010VVaccess abortion4011NNabortion services4012NNSservice .4013SENT.

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4014LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Could4015MDcould I4016PPI ...4017:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4018LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] There4019EXthere 's4020VBZbe no4021DTno dispute4022NNdispute here4023RBhere about4024INabout Doe4025NPDoe 14026CD1 .4027SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]4028LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That4029DTthat 's4030VBZbe correct4031JJcorrect .4032SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4033LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] The4034DTthe other4035JJother side4036NNside ,4037,, that4038DTthat finding4039NNfinding it4040PPit says4041VVZsay it4042PPit 's4043VBZbe right4044JJright .4045SENT. Now4046RBnow Doe4047NPDoe 34048CD3 ,4049,, whether4050INwhether or4051CCor not4052RBnot he4053PPhe would4054MDwould quit4055VVquit or4056CCor not4057RBnot ,4058,, the4059DTthe clinic4060NNclinic would4061MDwould have4062VHhave to4063TOto close4064VVclose because4065INbecause it4066PPit would4067MDwould n't4068RBn't have4069VHhave a4070DTa Doe4071NPDoe 14072CD1 ?4073SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4074LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Correct4075JJcorrect .4076SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4077LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] So4078RBso ,4079,, at4080INat least4081JJSleast with4082INwith respect4083NNrespect to4084TOto that4085DTthat .4086SENT. With4087INwith respect4088NNrespect to4089TOto Doe4090NPDoe 64091CD6 ,4092,, that4093WDTthat 's4094VBZbe a4095DTa medical4096JJmedical doctor4097NNdoctor only4098RBonly who4099WPwho has4100VHZhave n't4101RBn't been4102VBNbe in4103INin a4104DTa hospital4105NNhospital for4106INfor over4107RBover ten4108CDten years4109NNSyear .4110SENT. So4111RBso it4112PPit seems4113VVZseem implausible4114JJimplausible ,4115,, given4116VVNgive that4117IN/thatthat every4118DTevery single4119JJsingle hospital4120NNhospital mentioned4121VVNmention by4122INby the4123DTthe district4124NNdistrict court4125NNcourt in4126INin that4127DTthat area4128NNarea has4129VHZhave requirements4130NNSrequirement of4131INof in-patient4132NNin-patient ...4133:... of4134INof receiving4135VVGreceive patients4136NNSpatient by4137INby the4138DTthe doctor4139NNdoctor ,4140,, and4141CCand he4142PPhe can4143MDcan 't4144RB't fulfill4145VVfulfill that4146IN/thatthat under4147INunder any4148DTany circumstances4149NNScircumstance ,4150,, correct4151JJcorrect ?4152SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4153LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That4154DTthat 's4155VBZbe correct4156JJcorrect .4157SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4158LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All4159DTall right4160NNright .4161SENT.

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4162LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Can4163MDcan I4164PPI follow4165VVfollow up4166RPup on4167INon the4168DTthe Chief4169NPChief Justice4170NPJustice 's4171POS's earlier4172JJRearly question4173NNquestion and4174CCand mine4175NNmine as4176INas well4177RBwell ?4178SENT? Are4179VBPbe you4180PPyou saying4181VVGsay that4182IN/thatthat admitting4183VVGadmit privileges4184NNSprivilege laws4185NNSlaw are4186VBPbe always4187RBalways unconstitutional4188JJunconstitutional ,4189,, such4190JJsuch that4191IN/thatthat we4192PPwe do4193VVPdo n't4194RBn't have4195VHhave to4196TOto look4197VVlook at4198INat the4199DTthe facts4200NNSfact in4201INin ...4202:... state4203NNstate by4204INby state4205NNstate ?4206SENT? Or4207CCor are4208VBPbe you4209PPyou saying4210VVGsay that4211IN/thatthat actually4212RBactually you4213PPyou do4214VVPdo look4215NNlook at4216INat the4217DTthe facts4218NNSfact state4219NNstate by4220INby state4221NNstate ,4222,, and4223CCand in4224INin some4225DTsome states4226NNSstate ,4227,, admitting4228VVGadmit privileges4229NNSprivilege laws4230NNSlaw could4231MDcould be4232VBbe constitutional4233JJconstitutional ,4234,, if4235INif they4236PPthey impose4237VVimpose no4238DTno burdens4239NNSburden ?4240SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4241LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your4242PP$your Honor4243NPHonor ,4244,, the4245DTthe burdens4246NNSburden may4247MDmay vary4248VVvary ,4249,, but4250CCbut a4251DTa law4252NNlaw that4253WDTthat has4254VHZhave no4255DTno benefit4256NNbenefit and4257CCand serves4258VVZserve no4259DTno valid4260JJvalid state4261NNstate interest4262NNinterest ,4263,, which4264WDTwhich is4265VBZbe what4266WPwhat this4267DTthis Court4268NNcourt held4269VVNhold in4270INin Whole4271JJwhole Woman4272NPWoman 's4273POS's Health4274NPHealth ,4275,, is4276VBZbe much4277RBmuch more4278RBRmore likely4279JJlikely to4280TOto be4281VBbe an4282DTan undue4283JJundue burden4284NNburden .4285SENT.

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4286LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Could4287MDcould an4288DTan admitting4289VVGadmit privileges4290NNSprivilege law4291NNlaw of4292INof this4293DTthis kind4294NNkind ever4295RBever have4296VHPhave a4297DTa valid4298JJvalid purpose4299NNpurpose ,4300,, in4301INin your4302PP$your view4303NNview ?4304SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4305LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] No4306NPNo ,4307,, Your4308PP$your Honor4309NPHonor .4310SENT. The4311DTthe medical4312JJmedical consensus4313NNconsensus against4314INagainst these4315DTthese laws4316NNSlaw is4317VBZbe clear4318JJclear .4319SENT.

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4320LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] So4321INso your4322PP$your view4323NNview is4324VBZbe that4325IN/thatthat they4326PPthey 're4327VBPbe unconstitutional4328JJunconstitutional in4329INin any4330DTany state4331NNstate ,4332,, regardless4333RBregardless of4334INof the4335DTthe facts4336NNSfact ?4337SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4338LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] They4339PPthey certainly4340RBcertainly serve4341VVPserve no4342DTno valid4343JJvalid state4344NNstate interest4345NNinterest .4346SENT. And4347CCand ,4348,, in4349INin fact4350NNfact ,4351,, the4352DTthe district4353NNdistrict court4354NNcourt here4355RBhere found4356VVDfind that4357IN/thatthat this4358DTthis law4359NNlaw was4360VBDbe a4361DTa solution4362NNsolution for4363INfor a4364DTa problem4365NNproblem that4366WDTthat did4367VVDdo n't4368RBn't exist4369VVexist and4370CCand would4371MDwould actually4372RBactually jeopardize4373VVjeopardize this4374DTthis ...4375:... health4376NNhealth and4377CCand safety4378NNsafety of4379INof people4380NNSpeople ...4381:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4382LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Would4383MDwould this4384RBthis be4385VBbe ...4386:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]4387LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...4388:... in4389INin Louisiana4390NPLouisiana .4391SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4392LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...4393:... different4394JJdifferent if4395INif ...4396:... if4397INif they4398PPthey did4399VVDdo something4400NNsomething as4401INas limited4402JJlimited as4403RBas ,4404,, for4405INfor example4406NNexample ,4407,, you4408PPyou have4409VHPhave to4410TOto be4411VBbe admitted4412VVNadmit somewhere4413RBsomewhere ,4414,, because4415INbecause some4416DTsome ...4417:... being4418VBGbe admitted4419VVNadmit somewhere4420RBsomewhere does4421VVZdo further4422JJRfurther credentialing4423NNcredentialing benefits4424NNSbenefit ?4425SENT? But4426CCbut this4427DTthis was4428VBDbe you4429PPyou have4430VHPhave to4431TOto be4432VBbe admitted4433VVNadmit within4434INwithin 304435CD@card@ miles4436NNSmile .4437SENT. Some4438DTsome of4439INof these4440DTthese doctors4441NNSdoctor were4442VBDbe admitted4443VVNadmit further4444RBRfurther away4445RBaway ,4446,, but4447CCbut they4448PPthey still4449RBstill were4450VBDbe credentialed4451JJcredentialed by4452INby someone4453NNsomeone ,4454,, correct4455JJcorrect ?4456SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4457LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That4458DTthat 's4459VBZbe correct4460JJcorrect ,4461,, Your4462PP$your Honor4463NPHonor .4464SENT. If4465INif credentialing4466NNcredentialing were4467VBDbe the4468DTthe true4469JJtrue goal4470NNgoal of4471INof this4472DTthis law4473NNlaw ,4474,, the4475DTthe 30-mile4476JJ30-mile limit4477NNlimit would4478MDwould make4479VVmake no4480DTno sense4481NNsense .4482SENT. And4483CCand one4484CDone of4485INof the4486DTthe practical4487JJpractical real-world4488NNreal-world impacts4489NNSimpact ,4490,, if4491INif this4492DTthis law4493NNlaw were4494VBDbe to4495TOto take4496VVtake effect4497NNeffect ,4498,, is4499VBZbe that4500IN/thatthat women4501NNSwoman in4502INin the4503DTthe Baton4504NPBaton Rouge4505NPRouge area4506NNarea would4507MDwould now4508RBnow have4509VHhave to4510TOto travel4511VVtravel miles4512NNSmile back4513RBback and4514CCand forth4515RBforth to4516TOto New4517NPNew Orleans4518NPOrleans to4519TOto see4520VVsee the4521DTthe same4522JJsame exact4523JJexact physician4524NNphysician that4525IN/thatthat they4526PPthey previously4527RBpreviously could4528MDcould have4529VHhave seen4530VVNsee ...4531:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4532LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] How4533WRBHow many4534JJmany ...4535:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]4536LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] ...4537:... in4538INin Baton4539NPBaton Rouge4540NPRouge .4541SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]4542LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...4543:... miles4544NNSmile from4545INfrom the4546DTthe northern4547JJnorthern ...4548:... from4549INfrom the4550DTthe Hope4551NPHope area4552NNarea ?4553SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]4554LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] It4555PPit 's4556VBZbe 3204557CD@card@ miles4558NNSmile ,4559,, Your4560PP$your Honor4561NPHonor ,4562,, from4563INfrom Shreveport4564NPShreveport to4565TOto New4566NPNew Orleans4567NPOrleans .4568SENT. And4569CCand from4570INfrom Baton4571NPBaton Rouge4572NPRouge back4573RBback and4574CCand forth4575RBforth ,4576,, because4577INbecause of4578INof the4579DTthe two-trip4580NNtwo-trip law4581NNlaw ,4582,, it4583PPit 's4584VBZbe 3204585CD@card@ miles4586NNSmile .4587SENT. And4588CCand ,4589,, again4590RBagain ,4591,, they4592PPthey would4593MDwould be4594VBbe making4595VVGmake that4596DTthat trip4597NNtrip to4598TOto see4599VVsee the4600DTthe same4601JJsame exact4602JJexact physician4603NNphysician who4604WPwho had4605VHDhave been4606VBNbe previously4607RBpreviously providing4608VVGprovide services4609NNSservice in4610INin Baton4611NPBaton Rouge4612NPRouge .4613SENT. And4614CCand that4615WDTthat has4616VHZhave no4617DTno benefit4618NNbenefit to4619TOto women4620NNSwoman 's4621POS's health4622NNhealth .4623SENT. It4624PPit will4625MDwill only4626RBonly hurt4627VVhurt their4628PP$their health4629NNhealth ,4630,, which4631WDTwhich is4632VBZbe exactly4633RBexactly what4634WPwhat the4635DTthe district4636NNdistrict court4637NNcourt found4638VVDfind here4639RBhere .4640SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]4641LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] You4642PPyou have4643VHPhave n't4644RBn't mentioned4645VVNmention ,4646,, and4647CCand it4648PPit 's4649VBZbe odd4650JJodd ,4651,, the4652DTthe 304653CD@card@ mile4654NNmile from4655INfrom the4656DTthe clinic4657NNclinic ,4658,, when4659WRBwhen most4660JJSmost of4661INof these4662DTthese abortions4663NNSabortion do4664VVPdo n't4665RBn't have4666VHhave any4667DTany complications4668NNScomplication and4669CCand the4670DTthe patient4671NNpatient never4672RBnever gets4673VVZget near4674INnear a4675DTa hospital4676NNhospital ,4677,, but4678CCbut if4679INif she4680PPshe needs4681VVZneed a4682DTa hospital4683NNhospital ,4684,, it4685PPit 's4686VBZbe certainly4687RBcertainly not4688RBnot going4689VVGgo to4690TOto be4691VBbe the4692DTthe one4693CDone near4694INnear the4695DTthe clinic4696NNclinic .4697SENT. She4698PPshe will4699MDwill be4700VBbe home4701NNhome .4702SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]4703LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That4704DTthat ...4705:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]4706LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] And4707CCand so4708RBso ...4709:...

[MS. RIKELMAN]4710LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] That4711DTthat 's4712VBZbe exactly4713RBexactly right4714RBright ,4715,, Your4716PP$your Honor4717NPHonor .4718SENT. That4719DTthat 's4720VBZbe what4721WPwhat this4722DTthis Court4723NNcourt recognized4724VVNrecognize in4725INin Whole4726JJwhole Woman4727NPWoman 's4728POS's Health4729NPHealth and4730CCand one4731CDone of4732INof the4733DTthe reasons4734NNSreason why4735WRBwhy it4736PPit concluded4737VVDconclude the4738DTthe law4739NNlaw is4740VBZbe medically4741RBmedically unnecessary4742JJunnecessary ,4743,, because4744INbecause the4745DTthe ...4746:... the4747DTthe complication4748NNcomplication rate4749NNrate is4750VBZbe extremely4751RBextremely small4752JJsmall to4753TOto begin4754VVbegin with4755INwith ,4756,, but4757CCbut when4758WRBwhen complications4759NNScomplication do4760VVPdo occur4761VVoccur ,4762,, it4763PPit 's4764VBZbe almost4765RBalmost always4766RBalways after4767INafter the4768DTthe woman4769NNwoman has4770VHZhave been4771VBNbe left4772VVNleave the4773DTthe clinic4774NNclinic .4775SENT. And4776CCand the4777DTthe standard4778NNstandard of4779INof care4780NNcare at4781INat that4782DTthat point4783NNpoint is4784VBZbe for4785INfor her4786PPher to4787TOto go4788VVgo to4789TOto the4790DTthe hospital4791NNhospital closest4792JJSclose to4793TOto her4794PP$her home4795NNhome .4796SENT. And4797CCand ,4798,, of4799INof course4800NNcourse ,4801,, about4802RBabout 404803CD@card@ percent4804NNpercent of4805INof abortions4806NNSabortion in4807INin Louisiana4808NPLouisiana are4809VBPbe medication4810NNmedication abortions4811NNSabortion ,4812,, and4813CCand any4814DTany complication4815NNcomplication from4816INfrom those4817DTthose abortions4818NNSabortion will4819MDwill always4820RBalways happen4821VVhappen when4822WRBwhen the4823DTthe patient4824NNpatient is4825VBZbe at4826INat home4827NNhome ,4828,, which4829WDTwhich ,4830,, again4831RBagain ,4832,, is4833VBZbe what4834WPwhat this4835DTthis Court4836NNcourt recognized4837VVNrecognize in4838INin Whole4839JJwhole Woman4840NPWoman 's4841POS's Health4842NPHealth .4843SENT. And4844CCand that4845DTthat is4846VBZbe one4847CDone of4848INof the4849DTthe reasons4850NNSreason why4851WRBwhy the4852DTthe AMA4853NPAMA and4854CCand ACOG4855NPACOG are4856VBPbe clear4857JJclear that4858IN/thatthat these4859DTthese laws4860NNSlaw have4861VHPhave no4862DTno medical4863JJmedical benefits4864NNSbenefit whatsoever4865RBwhatsoever and4866CCand only4867RBonly impose4868VVimpose barriers4869NNSbarrier to4870TOto abortion4871NNabortion .4872SENT. And4873CCand that4874DTthat is4875VBZbe true4876JJtrue in4877INin every4878DTevery state4879NNstate ,4880,, regardless4881RBregardless of4882INof the4883DTthe state4884NNstate circumstances4885NNScircumstance .4886SENT. These4887DTthese laws4888NNSlaw will4889MDwill always4890RBalways put4891VVput barriers4892NNSbarrier to4893TOto abortion4894NNabortion while4895INwhile serving4896VVGserve no4897DTno health4898NNhealth and4899CCand safety4900NNsafety benefits4901NNSbenefit .4902SENT. And4903CCand ,4904,, in4905INin fact4906NNfact ,4907,, the4908DTthe district4909NNdistrict court4910NNcourt here4911RBhere found4912VVDfind that4913DTthat abortion4914NNabortion in4915INin Louisiana4916NPLouisiana in4917INin the4918DTthe years4919NNSyear before4920INbefore the4921DTthe law4922NNlaw was4923VBDbe extremely4924RBextremely safe4925JJsafe ,4926,, with4927INwith a4928DTa very4929RBvery low4930JJlow rate4931NNrate of4932INof complications4933NNScomplication ,4934,, that4935WDTthat Hope4936NPHope had4937VHDhave an4938DTan excellent4939JJexcellent safety4940NNsafety record4941NNrecord ,4942,, and4943CCand that4944IN/thatthat its4945PP$its physicians4946NNSphysician were4947VBDbe competent4948JJcompetent and4949CCand qualified4950VVNqualify to4951TOto provide4952VVprovide abortion4953NNabortion services4954NNSservice .4955SENT. And4956CCand ,4957,, again4958RBagain ,4959,, it4960PPit concluded4961VVDconclude that4962IN/thatthat there4963EXthere is4964VBZbe no4965DTno basis4966NNbasis to4967TOto distinguish4968VVdistinguish this4969DTthis case4970NNcase from4971INfrom Whole4972JJwhole Woman4973NPWoman 's4974POS's Health4975NPHealth and4976CCand instead4977RBinstead the4978DTthe burdens4979NNSburden of4980INof this4981DTthis law4982NNlaw would4983MDwould be4984VBbe even4985RBeven more4986RBRmore severe4987JJsevere than4988INthan the4989DTthe Texas4990NPTexas law4991NNlaw that4992IN/thatthat this4993DTthis Court4994NPCourt struck4995VVDstrike down4996RPdown in4997INin Whole4998JJwhole Woman4999NPWoman 's5000POS's Health5001NPHealth .5002SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]5003LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Hope5004NPHope is5005VBZbe the5006DTthe ...5007:... the5008DTthe name5009NNname under5010INunder which5011WDTwhich June5012NPJune Medical5013NPMedical does5014VVZdo business5015NNbusiness ;5016:; is5017VBZbe that5018IN/thatthat correct5019JJcorrect ?5020SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]5021LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Yes5022NPYes ,5023,, Your5024PP$your Honor5025NPHonor .5026SENT.

[JUSTICE ALITO]5027LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Was5028VBDbe ...5029:... was5030VBDbe June5031NPJune Medical5032NPMedical 's5033POS's license5034NNlicense suspended5035VVDsuspend for5036INfor regulatory5037JJregulatory violations5038NNSviolation ?5039SENT?

[MS. RIKELMAN]5040LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] It5041PPit was5042VBDbe briefly5043RBbriefly ,5044,, Your5045PP$your Honor5046NPHonor ,5047,, in5048INin 20105049CD@card@ .5050SENT. And5051CCand the5052DTthe court5053NNcourt heard5054VVDhear testimony5055NNtestimony about5056INabout that5057WDTthat and5058CCand rejected5059VVDreject the5060DTthe state5061NNstate 's5062POS's allegations5063NNSallegation after5064INafter listening5065VVGlisten to5066TOto the5067DTthe clinic5068NNclinic 's5069POS's administrator5070NNadministrator and5071CCand looking5072VVGlook at5073INat the5074DTthe evidence5075NNevidence in5076INin the5077DTthe record5078NNrecord .5079SENT. It5080PPit concluded5081VVDconclude that5082IN/thatthat Hope5083NPHope has5084VHZhave an5085DTan excellent5086JJexcellent safety5087NNsafety record5088NNrecord and5089CCand that5090IN/thatthat its5091PP$its physicians5092NNSphysician are5093VBPbe qualified5094JJqualified and5095CCand competent5096JJcompetent .5097SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5098LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5099VVthank you5100PPyou ,5101,, counsel5102NNcounsel .5103SENT. General5104NPGeneral Murrill5105NPMurrill .5106SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]5107LOC[MS. MURRILL] Thank5108VVthank you5109PPyou ,5110,, Mr5111NPMr .5112SENT. Chief5113NPChief Justice5114NPJustice ,5115,, and5116CCand may5117MDmay it5118PPit please5119VVplease the5120DTthe Court5121NPCourt :5122:: The5123DTthe Fifth5124NPFifth Circuit5125NPCircuit correctly5126RBcorrectly held5127VVDhold that5128IN/thatthat the5129DTthe plaintiffs5130NNSplaintiff in5131INin this5132DTthis case5133NNcase failed5134VVDfail to5135TOto carry5136VVcarry their5137PP$their burden5138NNburden ...5139:... their5140PP$their heavy5141JJheavy burden5142NNburden of5143INof proof5144NNproof that5145WDTthat is5146VBZbe required5147VVNrequire to5148TOto facially5149RBfacially invalidate5150VVinvalidate a5151DTa state5152NNstate law5153NNlaw .5154SENT. Louisiana5155NPLouisiana 's5156POS's decision5157NNdecision to5158TOto require5159VVrequire abortion5160NNabortion providers5161NNSprovider to5162TOto have5163VHhave admitting5164VVGadmit privileges5165NNSprivilege was5166VBDbe justified5167VVNjustify by5168INby abundant5169JJabundant evidence5170NNevidence of5171INof life-threatening5172JJlife-threatening health5173NNhealth and5174CCand safety5175NNsafety violations5176NNSviolation ,5177,, malpractice5178NNmalpractice ,5179,, noncompliance5180NNnoncompliance with5181INwith professional5182JJprofessional licensing5183NNlicensing rules5184NNSrule ,5185,, legislative5186JJlegislative testimony5187NNtestimony from5188INfrom post-abortive5189JJpost-abortive women5190NNSwoman ,5191,, testimony5192NNtestimony from5193INfrom doctors5194NNSdoctor who5195WPwho took5196VVDtake care5197NNcare of5198INof abortion5199NNabortion providers5200NNSprovider '5201POS' abandoned5202VVNabandon patients5203NNSpatient .5204SENT. The5205DTthe substantive5206JJsubstantive due5207JJdue process5208NNprocess claim5209VVPclaim that5210IN/thatthat plaintiffs5211NNSplaintiff assert5212VVPassert on5213INon their5214PP$their patients5215NNSpatient '5216POS' behalf5217NNbehalf hinged5218VVDhinge upon5219INupon their5220PP$their assertion5221NNassertion that5222IN/thatthat they5223PPthey would5224MDwould not5225RBnot be5226VBbe able5227JJable to5228TOto get5229VVget privileges5230NNSprivilege ,5231,, but5232CCbut they5233PPthey can5234MDcan and5235CCand they5236PPthey did5237VVDdo .5238SENT. Their5239PP$their claims5240NNSclaim also5241RBalso fail5242VVPfail for5243INfor an5244DTan independent5245JJindependent reason5246NNreason .5247SENT. So5248RBso they5249PPthey do5250VVPdo not5251RBnot meet5252VVmeet the5253DTthe modern5254JJmodern ,5255,, rigorous5256JJrigorous rule5257NNrule for5258INfor third-party5259JJthird-party standing5260NNstanding .5261SENT. So5262RBso ,5263,, instead5264RBinstead ,5265,, they5266PPthey invite5267VVPinvite this5268DTthis Court5269NPCourt to5270TOto exempt5271VVexempt them5272PPthem from5273INfrom the5274DTthe rule5275NNrule .5276SENT. This5277DTthis Court5278NPCourt should5279MDshould decline5280VVdecline to5281TOto make5282VVmake abortion5283NNabortion providers5284NNSprovider unique5285JJunique among5286INamong federal5287JJfederal plaintiffs5288NNSplaintiff and5289CCand reaffirm5290VVreaffirm that5291DTthat even5292JJeven abortion5293NNabortion providers5294NNSprovider must5295MDmust comply5296VVcomply with5297INwith the5298DTthe same5299JJsame rules5300NNSrule as5301INas all5302PDTall the5303DTthe other5304JJother litigants5305NNSlitigant .5306SENT. Doctors5307NNSdoctor and5308CCand healthcare5309NNhealthcare providers5310NNSprovider and5311CCand healthcare5312NNhealthcare facilities5313NNSfacility are5314VBPbe heavily5315RBheavily regulated5316VVNregulate for5317INfor ethics5318NNSethic reasons5319NNSreason and5320CCand for5321INfor consumer5322NNconsumer protection5323NNprotection .5324SENT. And5325CCand in5326INin this5327DTthis context5328NNcontext ,5329,, the5330DTthe conflict5331NNconflict between5332INbetween the5333DTthe plaintiffs5334NNSplaintiff and5335CCand the5336DTthe individuals5337NNSindividual that5338IN/thatthat the5339DTthe law5340NNlaw seeks5341VVZseek to5342TOto protect5343VVprotect should5344MDshould defeat5345VVdefeat the5346DTthe close5347JJclose relationship5348NNrelationship prong5349NNprong of5350INof third-party5351JJthird-party standing5352NNstanding .5353SENT. Apart5354RBapart from5355INfrom that5356DTthat conflict5357NNconflict ,5358,, the5359DTthe record5360NNrecord shows5361VVZshow that5362IN/thatthat they5363PPthey do5364VVPdo not5365RBnot have5366VHhave a5367DTa close5368JJclose relationship5369NNrelationship with5370INwith their5371PP$their patients5372NNSpatient and5373CCand individual5374JJindividual women5375NNSwoman have5376VHPhave litigated5377VVNlitigate abortion5378NNabortion cases5379NNScase on5380INon their5381PP$their own5382JJown for5383INfor decades5384NNSdecade .5385SENT. I5386PPI 'd5387MDwould like5388VVlike to5389TOto first5390RBfirst address5391VVaddress why5392WRBwhy this5393DTthis case5394NNcase is5395VBZbe different5396JJdifferent from5397INfrom Hellerstedt5398NPHellerstedt and5399CCand then5400RBthen address5401VVaddress standing5402NNstanding and5403CCand waiver5404NNwaiver .5405SENT. The5406DTthe ...5407:... the5408DTthe ...5409:... the5410DTthe state5411NNstate presented5412VVDpresent abundant5413JJabundant evidence5414NNevidence of5415INof how5416WRBhow this5417DTthis case5418NNcase is5419VBZbe different5420JJdifferent .5421SENT. The5422DTthe law5423NNlaw was5424VBDbe different5425JJdifferent ,5426,, the5427DTthe facts5428NNSfact are5429VBPbe different5430JJdifferent .5431SENT. The5432DTthe regulatory5433JJregulatory structure5434NNstructure is5435VBZbe different5436JJdifferent .5437SENT. And5438CCand the5439DTthe record5440NNrecord is5441VBZbe different5442JJdifferent .5443SENT. And5444CCand all5445DTall of5446INof those5447DTthose things5448NNSthing dictated5449VVDdictate a5450DTa different5451JJdifferent result5452NNresult .5453SENT. So5454INso the5455DTthe Fifth5456NPFifth Circuit5457NPCircuit focused5458VVDfocus on5459RPon ...5460:... one5461CDone of5462INof the5463DTthe things5464NNSthing that5465IN/thatthat the5466DTthe Fifth5467NPFifth Circuit5468NPCircuit focused5469VVDfocus on5470INon was5471VBDbe credentialing5472VVGcredentialing .5473SENT. The5474DTthe record5475NNrecord in5476INin this5477DTthis case5478NNcase demonstrates5479VVZdemonstrate that5480IN/thatthat there5481EXthere is5482VBZbe no5483DTno credentialing5484NNcredentialing that5485WDTthat is5486VBZbe performed5487VVNperform by5488INby these5489DTthese facilities5490NNSfacility .5491SENT. They5492PPthey alleged5493VVDallege that5494IN/thatthat they5495PPthey had5496VHDhave robust5497JJrobust policies5498NNSpolicy ,5499,, but5500CCbut they5501PPthey do5502VVPdo n't5503RBn't read5504VVread them5505PPthem and5506CCand they5507PPthey do5508VVPdo n't5509RBn't follow5510VVfollow them5511PPthem .5512SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5513LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] What5514WDTwhat ...5515:...

[MS. MURRILL]5516LOC[MS. MURRILL] They5517PPthey ...5518:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5519LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...5520:... sense5521NNsense does5522VVZdo the5523DTthe 30-mile5524JJ30-mile limit5525NNlimit make5526VVmake ,5527,, considering5528VVGconsider that5529DTthat ...5530:... certainly5531RBcertainly for5532INfor medication5533NNmedication abortions5534NNSabortion and5535CCand for5536INfor the5537DTthe overwhelming5538JJoverwhelming number5539NNnumber of5540INof other5541JJother abortions5542NNSabortion ?5543SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]5544LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice5545NPJustice Ginsburg5546NPGinsburg ...5547:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5548LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] If5549INif the5550DTthe woman5551NNwoman has5552VHZhave a5553DTa problem5554NNproblem ,5555,, it5556PPit will5557MDwill be5558VBbe her5559PP$her local5560JJlocal hospital5561NNhospital that5562WDTthat will5563MDwill ...5564:... she5565PPshe will5566MDwill need5567VVneed to5568TOto go5569VVgo to5570TOto for5571INfor the5572DTthe care5573NNcare ,5574,, not5575RBnot something5576NNsomething 305577CD@card@ miles5578NNSmile from5579INfrom the5580DTthe clinic5581NNclinic ,5582,, which5583WDTwhich does5584VVZdo have5585VHhave no5586DTno necessary5587JJnecessary relationship5588NNrelationship to5589TOto where5590WRBwhere she5591PPshe lives5592VVZlive .5593SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]5594LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice5595NPJustice Ginsburg5596NPGinsburg ,5597,, that5598DTthat regulation5599NNregulation is5600VBZbe consistent5601JJconsistent with5602INwith the5603DTthe regulation5604NNregulation that5605IN/thatthat we5606PPwe have5607VHPhave in5608INin our5609PP$our office5610NNoffice surgery5611NNsurgery regulations5612NNSregulation and5613CCand our5614PP$our ambulatory5615JJambulatory surgery5616NNsurgery regulations5617NNSregulation ,5618,, so5619RBso it5620PPit is5621VBZbe consistent5622JJconsistent with5623INwith our5624PP$our regulatory5625JJregulatory structure5626NNstructure .5627SENT. We5628PPwe also5629RBalso had5630VHDhave evidence5631NNevidence in5632INin the5633DTthe record5634NNrecord of5635INof women5636NNSwoman who5637WPwho did5638VVDdo require5639VVrequire transfers5640NNStransfer .5641SENT. I5642PPI think5643VVPthink there5644EXthere is5645VBZbe at5646INat least5647JJSleast ...5648:... Doe5649NPDoe 35650CD3 testified5651VVDtestify unambiguously5652RBunambiguously that5653IN/thatthat he5654PPhe had5655VHDhave to5656TOto transfer5657VVtransfer four5658CDfour patients5659NNSpatient who5660WPwho had5661VHDhave punctured5662VVNpuncture uteruses5663NNSuteruses and5664CCand were5665VBDbe hemorrhaging5666VVGhemorrhage ...5667:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5668LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] What5669WPWhat about5670RBabout ...5671:...

[MS. MURRILL]5672LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...5673:... and5674CCand he5675PPhe took5676VVDtake care5677NNcare of5678INof them5679PPthem .5680SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5681LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] What5682WPWhat about5683INabout a5684DTa D5685NPD &5686CC& C5687NPC after5688INafter a5689DTa miscarriage5690NNmiscarriage ?5691SENT? As5692INas I5693PPI understand5694VVPunderstand it5695PPit ,5696,, these5697DTthese two5698CDtwo procedures5699NNSprocedure are5700VBPbe very5701RBvery much5702RBmuch alike5703RBalike .5704SENT. Are5705VBPbe similar5706JJsimilar regulations5707NNSregulation ,5708,, about5709RBabout 305710CD@card@ miles5711NNSmile ,5712,, and5713CCand admitting5714VVGadmit privileges5715NNSprivilege applicable5716JJapplicable to5717TOto a5718DTa D5719NPD &5720CC& C5721NPC following5722VVGfollow a5723DTa miscarriage5724NNmiscarriage ?5725SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]5726LOC[MS. MURRILL] Under5727INunder the5728DTthe ambulatory5729JJambulatory surgery5730NNsurgery center5731NNcenter regs5732NNSregs ,5733,, yes5734UHyes .5735SENT. Under5736INunder the5737DTthe office5738NNoffice practice5739NNpractice regs5740NNSregs which5741WDTwhich do5742VVPdo not5743RBnot regulate5744VVregulate abortion5745NNabortion clinics5746NNSclinic ,5747,, a5748DTa doctor5749NNdoctor who5750WPwho does5751VVZdo n't5752RBn't have5753VHhave a5754DTa ...5755:... have5756VHPhave a5757DTa residency5758NNresidency in5759INin the5760DTthe proper5761JJproper scope5762NNscope of5763INof care5764NNcare would5765MDwould have5766VHhave to5767TOto have5768VHhave admitting5769VVGadmit privileges5770NNSprivilege and5771CCand would5772MDwould have5773VHhave to5774TOto have5775VHhave them5776PPthem within5777INwithin a5778DTa 30-mile5779JJ30-mile radius5780NNradius of5781INof ...5782:... of5783INof the5784DTthe clinic5785NNclinic .5786SENT. So5787RBso it5788PPit 's5789VBZbe the5790DTthe same5791JJsame requirement5792NNrequirement .5793SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5794LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] It5795PPit is5796VBZbe the5797DTthe same5798JJsame .5799SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]5800LOC[MS. MURRILL] Yes5801NPYes .5802SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]5803LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] I5804PPI thought5805VVDthink there5806EXthere was5807VBDbe something5808NNsomething in5809INin the5810DTthe record5811NNrecord suggesting5812VVGsuggest there5813EXthere was5814VBDbe no5815DTno such5816JJsuch requirement5817NNrequirement for5818INfor D5819NPD &5820CC& C5821NPC following5822VVGfollow a5823DTa miscarriage5824NNmiscarriage .5825SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]5826LOC[MS. MURRILL] The5827DTthe office5828NNoffice practice5829NNpractice regulations5830NNSregulation are5831VBPbe not5832RBnot as5833RBas tightly5834RBtightly regulated5835VVNregulate as5836INas ambulatory5837JJambulatory surgery5838NNsurgery centers5839NNScenter ,5840,, which5841WDTwhich are5842VBPbe facility5843NNfacility licensing5844NNlicensing .5845SENT. These5846DTthese are5847VBPbe separate5848JJseparate licensing5849NNlicensing constructs5850NNSconstruct .5851SENT. Facilities5852NNSfacility are5853VBPbe licensed5854VVNlicense by5855INby the5856DTthe Louisiana5857NPLouisiana Department5858NPDepartment of5859INof Health5860NPHealth ,5861,, as5862RBas are5863VBPbe ambulatory5864JJambulatory surgery5865NNsurgery centers5866NNScenter .5867SENT. And5868CCand both5869CCboth require5870VVrequire all5871PDTall the5872DTthe medical5873JJmedical staff5874NNstaff to5875TOto have5876VHhave admitting5877VVGadmit privileges5878NNSprivilege .5879SENT. The5880DTthe ...5881:... the5882DTthe requirement5883NNrequirement under5884INunder ASC5885NPASC says5886VVZsay geographically5887RBgeographically close5888VVclose ,5889,, and5890CCand it5891PPit is5892VBZbe interpreted5893VVNinterpret under5894INunder the5895DTthe regs5896NNSregs as5897INas the5898DTthe same5899JJsame way5900NNway .5901SENT. So5902RBso we5903PPwe do5904VVPdo n't5905RBn't interpret5906VVinterpret it5907PPit differently5908RBdifferently .5909SENT. We5910PPwe 're5911VBPbe applying5912VVGapply them5913PPthem consistently5914RBconsistently and5915CCand we5916PPwe 're5917VBPbe reading5918VVGread those5919DTthose regulations5920NNSregulation the5921DTthe same5922JJsame .5923SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5924LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Do5925VVPdo you5926PPyou agree5927VVPagree that5928IN/thatthat the5929DTthe benefits5930NNSbenefit inquiry5931NNinquiry under5932INunder the5933DTthe law5934NNlaw is5935VBZbe going5936VVGgo to5937TOto be5938VBbe the5939DTthe same5940JJsame in5941INin every5942DTevery case5943NNcase ,5944,, regardless5945RBregardless of5946INof which5947WDTwhich state5948NNstate we5949PPwe 're5950VBPbe talking5951VVGtalk about5952RBabout ?5953SENT? I5954PPI mean5955VVPmean ,5956,, I5957PPI understand5958VVPunderstand the5959DTthe idea5960NNidea that5961IN/thatthat the5962DTthe impact5963NNimpact might5964MDmight be5965VBbe different5966JJdifferent in5967INin different5968JJdifferent places5969NNSplace ,5970,, but5971CCbut as5972RBas far5973RBfar as5974INas the5975DTthe benefits5976NNSbenefit of5977INof the5978DTthe law5979NNlaw ,5980,, that5981WDTthat 's5982VBZbe going5983VVGgo to5984TOto be5985VBbe the5986DTthe same5987JJsame in5988INin each5989DTeach state5990NNstate ,5991,, is5992VBZbe n't5993RBn't it5994PPit ?5995SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]5996LOC[MS. MURRILL] No5997NPNo .5998SENT. I5999PPI do6000VVPdo n't6001RBn't think6002VVthink the6003DTthe benefit6004NNbenefit ...6005:... I6006PPI mean6007VVPmean ,6008,, I6009PPI think6010VVPthink that6011IN/thatthat a6012DTa state6013NNstate could6014MDcould certainly6015RBcertainly show6016VVshow greater6017JJRgreat benefits6018NNSbenefit ,6019,, depending6020VVGdepend on6021INon what6022WPwhat their6023PP$their regulatory6024JJregulatory structure6025NNstructure is6026VBZbe and6027CCand what6028WPwhat the6029DTthe facts6030NNSfact are6031VBPbe on6032INon the6033DTthe ground6034NNground in6035INin that6036DTthat state6037NNstate .6038SENT. I6039PPI think6040VVPthink we6041PPwe absolutely6042RBabsolutely could6043MDcould show6044VVshow that6045IN/thatthat we6046PPwe ...6047:... that6048IN/thatthat it6049PPit serves6050VVZserve a6051DTa greater6052JJRgreat benefit6053NNbenefit .6054SENT. In6055INin our6056PP$our situation6057NNsituation ,6058,, for6059INfor example6060NNexample ,6061,, we6062PPwe 've6063VHPhave demonstrated6064VVNdemonstrate that6065IN/thatthat the6066DTthe doctors6067NNSdoctor do6068VVPdo n't6069RBn't do6070VVdo credentialing6071VVGcredentialing ,6072,, that6073IN/thatthat the6074DTthe ...6075:... the6076DTthe LSBME6077NPLSBME testimony6078NNtestimony from6079INfrom the6080DTthe executive6081JJexecutive director6082NNdirector from6083INfrom Dr6084NPDr .6085SENT. Mutah6086NNMutah in6087INin the6088DTthe record6089NNrecord ,6090,, at6091INat JA6092NPJa 13736093CD@card@ ,6094,, she6095PPshe testified6096VVDtestify specifically6097RBspecifically that6098IN/thatthat the6099DTthe LSBME6100NPLSBME does6101VVZdo n't6102RBn't do6103VVdo credentialing6104NNcredentialing for6105INfor procedures6106NNSprocedure .6107SENT. That6108DTthat 's6109VBZbe what6110WPwhat the6111DTthe hospital6112NNhospital would6113MDwould do6114VVdo .6115SENT. And6116CCand that6117DTthat 's6118VBZbe what6119WPwhat ,6120,, if6121INif the6122DTthe clinic6123NNclinic had6124VHDhave ...6125:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6126LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I6127PPI 'm6128VBPbe sorry6129JJsorry .6130SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]6131LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6132:... robust6133JJrobust policies6134NNSpolicy ,6135,, it6136PPit would6137MDwould do6138VVdo .6139SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6140LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I6141PPI 'm6142VBPbe sorry6143JJsorry .6144SENT. There6145EXthere are6146VBPbe laws6147NNSlaw that6148WDTthat require6149VVPrequire credentialing6150VVGcredentialing to6151TOto be6152VBbe done6153VVNdo by6154INby the6155DTthe state6156NNstate with6157INwith respect6158NNrespect to6159TOto these6160DTthese doctors6161NNSdoctor ,6162,, correct6163JJcorrect ?6164SENT? They6165PPthey have6166VHPhave to6167TOto get6168VVget a6169DTa license6170NNlicense and6171CCand they6172PPthey have6173VHPhave to6174TOto have6175VHhave certain6176JJcertain competencies6177NNScompetency to6178TOto get6179VVget the6180DTthe license6181NNlicense .6182SENT. And6183CCand they6184PPthey also6185RBalso ...6186:... the6187DTthe license6188NNlicense is6189VBZbe suspended6190VVNsuspend if6191INif they6192PPthey 're6193VBPbe committed6194VVNcommit ...6195:... if6196INif they6197PPthey are6198VBPbe convicted6199VVNconvict of6200INof a6201DTa criminal6202JJcriminal act6203NNact .6204SENT. You6205PPyou 're6206VBPbe ...6207:... you6208PPyou 're6209VBPbe making6210VVGmake it6211PPit sound6212JJsound like6213INlike there6214EXthere is6215VBZbe no6216DTno state6217NNstate licensing6218NNlicensing of6219INof these6220DTthese doctors6221NNSdoctor .6222SENT. They6223PPthey are6224VBPbe licensed6225VVNlicense .6226SENT. They6227PPthey are6228VBPbe ...6229:...

[MS. MURRILL]6230LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice6231NPJustice ...6232:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6233LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6234:... regulated6235VVNregulate .6236SENT. You6237PPyou ...6238:...

[MS. MURRILL]6239LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6240:... Sotomayor6241NPSotomayor ,6242,, they6243PPthey are6244VBPbe ...6245:... they6246PPthey are6247VBPbe licensed6248VVNlicense by6249INby the6250DTthe state6251NNstate as6252RBas ...6253:... and6254CCand Doctor6255NPDoctor ...6256:... Dr6257NPDr .6258SENT. Cecllia6259NPCecllia Mouton6260NPMouton testified6261VVDtestify specifically6262RBspecifically at6263INat JA6264NPJa 13736265CD@card@ that6266IN/thatthat the6267DTthe Board6268NPBoard does6269VVZdo not6270RBnot do6271VVdo credentialing6272NNcredentialing .6273SENT. That6274DTthat is6275VBZbe not6276RBnot our6277PP$our role6278NNrole .6279SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6280LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6281CCbut did6282VVDdo n't6283RBn't ...6284:...

[MS. MURRILL]6285LOC[MS. MURRILL] Our6286PP$our role6287NNrole is6288VBZbe ...6289:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6290LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6291:... they6292PPthey also6293RBalso ...6294:...

[MS. MURRILL]6295LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6296:... to6297TOto licensing6298VVGlicense generally6299RBgenerally .6300SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6301LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6302:... testify6303VVtestify that6304WDTthat they6305PPthey ...6306:... but6307CCbut they6308PPthey did6309VVDdo ensure6310VVensure that6311IN/thatthat each6312DTeach of6313INof these6314DTthese doctors6315NNSdoctor was6316VBDbe skilled6317JJskilled in6318INin the6319DTthe procedures6320NNSprocedure that6321IN/thatthat they6322PPthey were6323VBDbe performing6324VVGperform ?6325SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]6326LOC[MS. MURRILL] No6327NPNo .6328SENT. In6329INin fact6330NNfact ,6331,, Doe6332NPDoe 36333CD3 hired6334VVDhire a6335DTa radiologist6336NNradiologist and6337CCand an6338DTan ophthalmologist6339NNophthalmologist to6340TOto perform6341VVperform abortions6342NNSabortion at6343INat one6344CDone point6345NNpoint in6346INin time6347NNtime .6348SENT. So6349RBso they6350PPthey clearly6351RBclearly were6352VBDbe not6353RBnot ...6354:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6355LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But6356CCbut he6357PPhe was6358VBDbe ...6359:...

[MS. MURRILL]6360LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6361:... complying6362VVGcomply .6363SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6364LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6365:... supervising6366VVGsupervise what6367WPwhat they6368PPthey were6369VBDbe doing6370VVGdo .6371SENT. That6372DTthat 's6373VBZbe what6374WPwhat he6375PPhe testified6376VVDtestify to6377TOto .6378SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]6379LOC[MS. MURRILL] That6380DTthat is6381VBZbe not6382RBnot within6383INwithin the6384DTthe scope6385NNscope of6386INof care6387NNcare .6388SENT. And6389CCand our6390PP$our record6391NNrecord clearly6392RBclearly demonstrates6393VVZdemonstrate that6394IN/thatthat you6395PPyou should6396MDshould have6397VHhave a6398DTa residency6399NNresidency and6400CCand you6401PPyou should6402MDshould have6403VHhave training6404NNtraining in6405INin the6406DTthe area6407NNarea in6408INin which6409WDTwhich you6410PPyou are6411VBPbe performing6412VVGperform surgical6413JJsurgical procedures6414NNSprocedure .6415SENT. So6416RBso it6417PPit would6418MDwould not6419RBnot comply6420VVcomply even6421RBeven with6422INwith our6423PP$our office6424NNoffice practice6425NNpractice regs6426NNSregs for6427INfor a6428DTa doctor6429NNdoctor to6430TOto ...6431:... a6432DTa radiologist6433NNradiologist to6434TOto perform6435VVperform abortions6436NNSabortion .6437SENT. That6438DTthat would6439MDwould not6440RBnot comply6441VVcomply ...6442:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6443LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Was6444VBDbe he6445PPhe doing6446VVGdo ...6447:...

[MS. MURRILL]6448LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6449:... with6450INwith our6451PP$our standard6452NNstandard of6453INof care6454NNcare .6455SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6456LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6457:... a6458DTa surgical6459JJsurgical procedure6460NNprocedure or6461CCor was6462VBDbe he6463PPhe doing6464VVGdo a6465DTa medical6466JJmedical abortion6467NNabortion ?6468SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]6469LOC[MS. MURRILL] He6470PPhe was6471VBDbe performing6472VVGperform surgical6473JJsurgical abortions6474NNSabortion ,6475,, to6476TOto the6477DTthe best6478JJSgood of6479INof my6480PP$my knowledge6481NNknowledge .6482SENT. There6483EXthere is6484VBZbe no6485DTno indication6486NNindication that6487IN/thatthat he6488PPhe was6489VBDbe n't6490RBn't .6491SENT. I6492PPI believe6493VVPbelieve that6494IN/thatthat the6495DTthe testimony6496NNtestimony is6497VBZbe that6498IN/thatthat he6499PPhe was6500VBDbe performing6501VVGperform all6502DTall ...6503:... there6504RBthere ...6505:... he6506PPhe was6507VBDbe n't6508RBn't restricting6509VVGrestrict his6510PP$his practice6511NNpractice .6512SENT. There6513EXthere 's6514VBZbe not6515RBnot a6516DTa lot6517NNlot of6518INof testimony6519NNtestimony in6520INin the6521DTthe record6522NNrecord about6523INabout what6524WPwhat he6525PPhe ...6526:... those6527DTthose doctors6528NNSdoctor were6529VBDbe doing6530VVGdo ,6531,, other6532JJother than6533INthan he6534PPhe hired6535VVDhire them6536PPthem .6537SENT. But6538CCbut to6539TOto your6540PP$your ...6541:... to6542TOto your6543PP$your question6544NNquestion ...6545:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6546LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] We6547PPwe 're6548VBPbe not6549RBnot even6550RBeven talking6551VVGtalk about6552INabout them6553PPthem .6554SENT. We6555PPwe 're6556VBPbe talking6557VVGtalk about6558INabout these6559DTthese doctors6560NNSdoctor and6561CCand their6562PP$their credentials6563NNScredential .6564SENT. And6565CCand ...6566:...

[MS. MURRILL]6567LOC[MS. MURRILL] Oh6568NPOh .6569SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6570LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] And6571CCand I6572PPI do6573VVPdo n't6574RBn't ...6575:... and6576CCand I6577PPI 'm6578VBPbe sort6579RBsort of6580INof still6581RBstill at6582INat a6583DTa mystery6584NNmystery to6585TOto me6586PPme why6587WRBwhy ,6588,, if6589INif what6590WPwhat 's6591VBZbe important6592JJimportant to6593TOto you6594PPyou is6595VBZbe the6596DTthe credentialing6597NNcredentialing ,6598,, why6599WRBwhy the6600DTthe 30-mile6601JJ30-mile limit6602NNlimit has6603VHZhave significance6604NNsignificance ?6605SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]6606LOC[MS. MURRILL] Because6607INbecause it6608PPit 's6609VBZbe not6610RBnot just6611RBjust credentialing6612JJcredentialing .6613SENT. It6614PPit is6615VBZbe all6616RBall of6617INof the6618DTthe other6619JJother factors6620NNSfactor that6621WDTthat also6622RBalso play6623VVPplay into6624INinto it6625PPit .6626SENT. It6627PPit does6628VVZdo provide6629VVprovide continuity6630NNcontinuity of6631INof care6632NNcare .6633SENT. It6634PPit does6635VVZdo cover6636VVcover for6637INfor ...6638:... it6639PPit does6640VVZdo address6641NNaddress ...6642:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6643LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] How6644WRBHow can6645MDcan the6646DTthe ...6647:...

[MS. MURRILL]6648LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6649:... the6650DTthe non-compliance6651NNnon-compliance with6652INwith health6653NNhealth ...6654:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6655LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] If6656INif there6657EXthere is6658VBZbe no6659DTno ...6660:...

[MS. MURRILL]6661LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6662:... and6663CCand safety6664NNsafety regulations6665NNSregulation .6666SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6667LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6668:... continuity6669NNcontinuity of6670INof care6671NNcare ,6672,, this6673DTthis law6674NNlaw itself6675PPitself permits6676VVZpermit a6677DTa doctor6678NNdoctor to6679TOto either6680DTeither have6681VHPhave admitting6682VVGadmit privileges6683NNSprivilege or6684CCor to6685TOto be6686VBbe in6687INin contract6688NNcontract with6689INwith someone6690NNsomeone who6691WPwho does6692VVZdo .6693SENT. So6694RBso it6695PPit 's6696VBZbe not6697RBnot necessary6698JJnecessary that6699IN/thatthat there6700EXthere be6701VBbe continuity6702NNcontinuity of6703INof care6704NNcare in6705INin a6706DTa hospital6707NNhospital .6708SENT. The6709DTthe ...6710:... the6711DTthe only6712JJonly thing6713NNthing is6714VBZbe the6715DTthe credential6716NNcredential ,6717,, you6718PPyou said6719VVDsay ,6720,, is6721VBZbe to6722TOto make6723VVmake sure6724JJsure that6725IN/thatthat they6726PPthey have6727VHPhave the6728DTthe skill6729NNskill level6730NNlevel .6731SENT. But6732CCbut if6733INif they6734PPthey 're6735VBPbe credentialed6736JJcredentialed somewhere6737RBsomewhere else6738RBelse ,6739,, they6740PPthey have6741VHPhave the6742DTthe skill6743NNskill level6744NNlevel .6745SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]6746LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice6747NPJustice Sotomayor6748NPSotomayor ,6749,, they6750PPthey did6751VVDdo not6752RBnot even6753RBeven comply6754VVcomply with6755INwith the6756DTthe transfer6757NNtransfer requirement6758NNrequirement .6759SENT. They6760PPthey did6761VVDdo not6762RBnot comply6763VVcomply with6764INwith multiple6765JJmultiple health6766NNhealth ...6767:... health6768NNhealth and6769CCand safety6770NNsafety requirements6771NNSrequirement in6772INin the6773DTthe state6774NNstate .6775SENT. So6776INso part6777NNpart of6778INof what6779WPwhat the6780DTthe credentialing6781NNcredentialing ...6782:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6783LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Was6784VBDbe this6785DTthis all6786RBall ...6787:...

[MS. MURRILL]6788LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6789:... part6790NNpart of6791INof what6792WPwhat ...6793:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6794LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6795:... before6796INbefore the6797DTthe district6798NNdistrict court6799NNcourt ?6800SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]6801LOC[MS. MURRILL] Yes6802NPYes .6803SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6804LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All6805DTall right6806NNright .6807SENT. And6808CCand the6809DTthe district6810NNdistrict court6811NNcourt looked6812VVDlook at6813INat it6814PPit and6815CCand found6816VVDfind explanations6817NNSexplanation that6818WDTthat were6819VBDbe adequate6820JJadequate for6821INfor each6822DTeach and6823CCand did6824VVDdo n't6825RBn't come6826VVcome to6827TOto the6828DTthe conclusions6829NNSconclusion you6830PPyou did6831VVDdo or6832CCor the6833DTthe legislature6834NNlegislature did6835VVDdo .6836SENT. I6837PPI thought6838VVDthink the6839DTthe standard6840NNstandard of6841INof review6842NNreview for6843INfor the6844DTthe Fifth6845NPFifth Circuit6846NPCircuit here6847RBhere was6848VBDbe whether6849INwhether there6850EXthere was6851VBDbe a6852DTa plausible6853JJplausible basis6854NNbasis in6855INin the6856DTthe record6857NNrecord for6858INfor the6859DTthe conclusions6860NNSconclusion the6861DTthe district6862NNdistrict court6863NNcourt reached6864VVDreach ?6865SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]6866LOC[MS. MURRILL] The6867DTthe district6868NNdistrict court6869NNcourt judge6870NNjudge ignored6871VVDignore all6872RBall of6873INof the6874DTthe health6875NNhealth and6876CCand safety6877NNsafety violations6878NNSviolation .6879SENT. He6880PPhe ignored6881VVDignore an6882DTan entire6883JJentire category6884NNcategory of6885INof courtesy6886NNcourtesy privileges6887NNSprivilege if6888INif we6889PPwe 're6890VBPbe talking6891VVGtalk about6892INabout compliance6893NNcompliance .6894SENT. I6895PPI mean6896VVPmean ,6897,, I6898PPI would6899MDwould ...6900:... I6901PPI would6902MDwould like6903VVlike to6904TOto take6905VVtake us6906PPus back6907RBback to6908TOto the6909DTthe point6910NNpoint that6911IN/thatthat they6912PPthey could6913MDcould and6914CCand did6915VVDdo get6916VVget privileges6917NNSprivilege .6918SENT. And6919CCand their6920PP$their primary6921NNprimary ...6922:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]6923LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] General6924NPGeneral Murrill6925NPMurrill ,6926,, before6927INbefore you6928PPyou ...6929:...

[MS. MURRILL]6930LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...6931:... assumption6932NNassumption from6933INfrom the6934DTthe beginning6935NNbeginning was6936VBDbe ...6937:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]6938LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...6939:... do6940VVPdo that6941DTthat ...6942:... before6943INbefore you6944PPyou do6945VVPdo that6946IN/thatthat ,6947,, please6948UHplease .6949SENT. On6950INon this6951DTthis credentialing6952JJcredentialing point6953NNpoint ,6954,, which6955WDTwhich you6956PPyou 've6957VHPhave mentioned6958VVNmention several6959JJseveral times6960NNStime ,6961,, and6962CCand of6963INof course6964NNcourse Whole6965JJwhole Woman6966NPWoman 's6967POS's Health6968NPHealth discussed6969VVDdiscuss that6970IN/thatthat and6971CCand said6972VVDsay a6973DTa state6974NNstate can6975MDcan 't6976RB't say6977VVPsay it6978PPit 's6979VBZbe doing6980VVGdo this6981DTthis for6982INfor credentialing6983VVGcredentialing purposes6984NNSpurpose if6985INif the6986DTthe hospital6987NNhospital 's6988POS's reasons6989NNSreason for6990INfor denying6991VVGdeny admitting6992VVGadmit privileges6993NNSprivilege have6994VHPhave nothing6995NNnothing to6996TOto do6997VVdo with6998INwith the6999DTthe doctor7000NNdoctor 's7001POS's quality7002NNquality .7003SENT. And7004CCand that7005DTthat was7006VBDbe true7007JJtrue in7008INin Whole7009JJwhole Woman7010NPWoman 's7011POS's Health7012NPHealth and7013CCand it7014PPit 's7015VBZbe true7016JJtrue here7017RBhere ,7018,, too7019RBtoo ,7020,, that7021IN/thatthat there7022EXthere 's7023VBZbe a7024DTa great7025JJgreat deal7026NNdeal of7027INof evidence7028NNevidence in7029INin the7030DTthe record7031NNrecord that7032WDTthat indicates7033VVZindicate that7034IN/thatthat admissions7035NNSadmission privileges7036NNSprivilege rest7037NNrest on7038INon many7039JJmany things7040NNSthing .7041SENT. It7042PPit could7043MDcould rest7044VVrest on7045INon qualifications7046NNSqualification ,7047,, but7048CCbut it7049PPit could7050MDcould rest7051VVrest on7052INon the7053DTthe number7054NNnumber of7055INof patients7056NNSpatient a7057DTa doctor7058NNdoctor has7059VHZhave .7060SENT. It7061PPit could7062MDcould rest7063VVrest on7064INon whether7065INwhether a7066DTa doctor7067NNdoctor ...7068:... whether7069INwhether a7070DTa particular7071JJparticular hospital7072NNhospital needs7073VVZneed more7074JJRmore providers7075NNSprovider .7076SENT. It7077PPit could7078MDcould rest7079VVrest ,7080,, too7081RBtoo ,7082,, it7083PPit could7084MDcould rest7085VVrest on7086INon a7087DTa general7088JJgeneral view7089NNview that7090IN/thatthat they7091PPthey do7092VVPdo n't7093RBn't want7094VVwant abortion7095NNabortion providers7096NNSprovider in7097INin that7098DTthat hospital7099NNhospital .7100SENT. So7101RBso given7102VVNgive that7103IN/thatthat that7104DTthat 's7105VBZbe all7106DTall true7107JJtrue ,7108,, it7109PPit was7110VBDbe true7111JJtrue in7112INin Texas7113NPTexas and7114CCand it7115PPit 's7116VBZbe true7117JJtrue here7118RBhere ,7119,, it7120PPit seems7121VVZseem that7122IN/thatthat Whole7123JJwhole Woman7124NPWoman 's7125POS's Health7126NPHealth precludes7127VVZpreclude you7128PPyou from7129INfrom making7130VVGmake this7131DTthis credentialing7132NNcredentialing argument7133NNargument ,7134,, does7135VVZdo n't7136RBn't it7137PPit ?7138SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7139LOC[MS. MURRILL] No7140NPNo ,7141,, I7142PPI do7143VVPdo n't7144RBn't think7145VVthink that7146IN/thatthat it7147PPit does7148VVZdo at7149INat all7150DTall .7151SENT. I7152PPI mean7153VVPmean ,7154,, in7155INin our7156PP$our case7157NNcase it7158PPit was7159VBDbe demonstrably7160RBdemonstrably different7161JJdifferent .7162SENT. They7163PPthey could7164MDcould and7165CCand did7166VVDdo get7167VVget privileges7168NNSprivilege .7169SENT. So7170RBso all7171RBall of7172INof the7173DTthe ...7174:... the7175DTthe ...7176:... the7177DTthe conjecture7178NNconjecture and7179CCand the7180DTthe speculation7181NNspeculation about7182INabout the7183DTthe reasons7184NNSreason why7185WRBwhy they7186PPthey might7187MDmight be7188VBbe denied7189VVNdeny privileges7190NNSprivilege were7191VBDbe proved7192VVNprove to7193TOto be7194VBbe untrue7195JJuntrue .7196SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7197LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is7198VBZbe it7199PPit not7200RBnot ...7201:...

[MS. MURRILL]7202LOC[MS. MURRILL] They7203PPthey were7204VBDbe able7205JJable to7206TOto get7207VVget privileges7208NNSprivilege .7209SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7210LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is7211VBZbe it7212PPit not7213RBnot the7214DTthe fact7215NNfact that7216IN/thatthat most7217JJSmost hospitals7218NNShospital in7219INin Louisiana7220NPLouisiana ,7221,, in7222INin order7223NNorder to7224TOto get7225VVget admitting7226VVGadmit privileges7227NNSprivilege ,7228,, you7229PPyou have7230VHPhave to7231TOto admit7232VVadmit a7233DTa certain7234JJcertain number7235NNnumber of7236INof patients7237NNSpatient ?7238SENT? Abortion7239NNabortion providers7240NNSprovider will7241MDwill never7242RBnever ,7243,, if7244INif that7245WDTthat 's7246VBZbe ...7247:... if7248INif they7249PPthey 're7250VBPbe not7251RBnot also7252RBalso doing7253VVGdo obstetrics7254NNSobstetrics and7255CCand gynecology7256NNgynecology ,7257,, they7258PPthey will7259MDwill never7260RBnever qualify7261VVqualify because7262INbecause their7263PP$their patients7264NNSpatient do7265VVPdo n't7266RBn't go7267VVgo to7268TOto the7269DTthe hospital7270NNhospital .7271SENT. There7272EXthere 's7273VBZbe one7274CDone finding7275NNfinding in7276INin that7277DTthat respect7278NNrespect ,7279,, and7280CCand you7281PPyou can7282MDcan tell7283VVtell me7284PPme if7285INif there7286EXthere 's7287VBZbe any7288DTany dispute7289NNdispute about7290INabout it7291PPit ,7292,, but7293CCbut this7294DTthis circuit7295NNcircuit did7296VVDdo n't7297RBn't seem7298VVseem to7299TOto contest7300VVcontest this7301DTthis finding7302NNfinding of7303INof the7304DTthe district7305NNdistrict court7306NNcourt ,7307,, that7308IN/thatthat a7309DTa hospital7310NNhospital transfer7311NNtransfer was7312VBDbe required7313VVNrequire far7314RBfar less7315RBRless than7316INthan once7317RBonce a7318DTa year7319NNyear or7320CCor less7321JJRless than7322INthan one7323CDone per7324INper several7325JJseveral thousand7326CDthousand patients7327NNSpatient .7328SENT. Most7329JJSmost of7330INof the7331DTthe people7332NNSpeople who7333WPwho get7334VVPget abortions7335NNSabortion never7336RBnever have7337VHPhave any7338DTany need7339NNneed to7340TOto go7341VVgo to7342TOto a7343DTa hospital7344NNhospital .7345SENT. Is7346VBZbe n't7347RBn't that7348IN/thatthat so7349RBso ?7350SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7351LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice7352NPJustice Ginsburg7353NPGinsburg ,7354,, to7355TOto your7356PP$your first7357JJfirst point7358NNpoint about7359INabout the7360DTthe ...7361:... the7362DTthe privileging7363VVGprivilege and7364CCand the7365DTthe minimum7366JJminimum requirements7367NNSrequirement ,7368,, every7369DTevery ...7370:... every7371DTevery set7372NNset of7373INof bylaws7374NNSbylaw in7375INin our7376PP$our record7377NNrecord shows7378VVZshow that7379IN/thatthat there7380EXthere is7381VBZbe a7382DTa category7383NNcategory of7384INof courtesy7385NNcourtesy privileges7386NNSprivilege that7387WDTthat permits7388VVZpermit low7389RBlow admit7390VVadmit from7391INfrom anywhere7392RBanywhere ...7393:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7394LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] My7395PP$my question7396NNquestion is7397VBZbe ...7398:... I7399PPI ...7400:... I7401PPI ...7402:...

[MS. MURRILL]7403LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...7404:... from7405INfrom zero7406CDzero to7407TOto a7408DTa dozen7409NNdozen .7410SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7411LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...7412:... is7413VBZbe there7414RBthere anything7415NNanything inaccurate7416JJinaccurate about7417INabout this7418DTthis determination7419NNdetermination that7420IN/thatthat access7421NNaccess to7422TOto a7423DTa hospital7424NNhospital ...7425:...

[MS. MURRILL]7426LOC[MS. MURRILL] I7427PPI think7428VVPthink ,7429,, yes7430UHyes .7431SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7432LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...7433:... was7434VBDbe required7435VVNrequire far7436RBfar less7437RBRless than7438INthan once7439RBonce a7440DTa year7441NNyear ,7442,, less7443JJRless than7444INthan one7445CDone per7446INper several7447JJseveral thousand7448CDthousand patients7449NNSpatient ?7450SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7451LOC[MS. MURRILL] Yes7452NPYes .7453SENT. It7454PPit is7455VBZbe inaccurate7456JJinaccurate because7457INbecause what7458WPwhat the7459DTthe record7460NNrecord demonstrated7461VVNdemonstrate is7462VBZbe that7463IN/thatthat they7464PPthey do7465VVPdo n't7466RBn't know7467VVknow what7468WPwhat their7469PP$their qualification7470NNqualification ...7471:... what7472WPwhat their7473PP$their complication7474NNcomplication rates7475NNSrate are7476VBPbe .7477SENT. They7478PPthey all7479RBall testified7480VVDtestify that7481IN/thatthat they7482PPthey do7483VVPdo n't7484RBn't know7485VVknow because7486INbecause women7487NNSwoman do7488VVPdo n't7489RBn't follow7490VVfollow up7491RPup with7492INwith them7493PPthem or7494CCor they7495PPthey do7496VVPdo n't7497RBn't follow7498VVfollow up7499RPup with7500INwith women7501NNSwoman .7502SENT. So7503RBso they7504PPthey really7505RBreally do7506VVPdo n't7507RBn't know7508VVknow what7509WPwhat their7510PP$their complication7511NNcomplication rates7512NNSrate are7513VBPbe .7514SENT. And7515CCand they7516PPthey did7517VVDdo testify7518VVtestify that7519IN/thatthat they7520PPthey had7521VHDhave direct7522JJdirect transfers7523NNStransfer that7524WDTthat resulted7525VVDresult in7526INin women7527NNSwoman having7528VHGhave hysterectomies7529NNShysterectomy ...7530:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]7531LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well7532UHwell is7533VBZbe it7534PPit right7535JJright ...7536:...

[MS. MURRILL]7537LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...7538:... and7539CCand hemorrhaging7540NNhemorrhaging .7541SENT.

[JUSTICE KAGAN]7542LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Is7543VBZbe it7544PPit ...7545:... is7546VBZbe it7547PPit right7548JJright that7549IN/thatthat there7550EXthere is7551VBZbe evidence7552NNevidence in7553INin the7554DTthe record7555NNrecord that7556IN/thatthat Hope7557NPHope Clinic7558NPClinic has7559VHZhave served7560VVNserve over7561INover 3,0007562CD@card@ women7563NNSwoman annually7564RBannually for7565INfor years7566NNSyear ,7567,, so7568INso that7569WDTthat 's7570VBZbe around7571RBaround 70,0007572CD@card@ women7573NNSwoman ,7574,, and7575CCand has7576VHZhave transferred7577VVNtransfer only7578RBonly four7579CDfour patients7580NNSpatient ever7581RBever to7582TOto a7583DTa hospital7584NNhospital ?7585SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7586LOC[MS. MURRILL] And7587CCand there7588EXthere is7589VBZbe evidence7590NNevidence in7591INin the7592DTthe record7593NNrecord that7594IN/thatthat they7595PPthey really7596RBreally do7597VVPdo n't7598RBn't know7599VVknow that7600IN/thatthat that7601DTthat 's7602VBZbe an7603DTan accurate7604JJaccurate rate7605NNrate because7606INbecause they7607PPthey do7608VVPdo n't7609RBn't track7610VVtrack their7611PP$their complications7612NNScomplication .7613SENT. They7614PPthey really7615RBreally do7616VVPdo n't7617RBn't know7618VVknow what7619WPwhat their7620PP$their numbers7621NNSnumber are7622VBPbe .7623SENT.

[JUSTICE KAGAN]7624LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well7625UHwell ,7626,, they7627PPthey know7628VVPknow ...7629:...

[MS. MURRILL]7630LOC[MS. MURRILL] So7631INso they7632PPthey testified7633VVDtestify ...7634:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]7635LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] They7636PPthey know7637VVPknow whether7638INwhether they7639PPthey 've7640VHPhave transferred7641VVNtransfer women7642NNSwoman to7643TOto a7644DTa hospital7645NNhospital ,7646,, and7647CCand it7648PPit 's7649VBZbe four7650CDfour .7651SENT. I7652PPI mean7653VVPmean ,7654,, I7655PPI do7656VVPdo n't7657RBn't know7658VVknow of7659INof a7660DTa medical7661JJmedical procedure7662NNprocedure where7663WRBwhere it7664PPit 's7665VBZbe lower7666JJRlow than7667INthan that7668DTthat of7669INof any7670DTany kind7671NNkind .7672SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]7673LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice7674NPJustice Kagan7675NPKagan ,7676,, it7677PPit 's7678VBZbe four7679CDfour that7680IN/thatthat they7681PPthey know7682VVPknow of7683INof ...7684:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7685LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] You7686PPyou do7687VVPdo n't7688RBn't ...7689:... you7690PPyou do7691VVPdo n't7692RBn't ...7693:...

[MS. MURRILL]7694LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...7695:... and7696CCand that7697IN/thatthat they7698PPthey do7699VVPdo n't7700RBn't track7701VVtrack the7702DTthe numbers7703NNSnumber .7704SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]7705LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] You7706PPyou do7707VVPdo n't7708RBn't dispute7709VVdispute that7710IN/thatthat ,7711,, among7712INamong medical7713JJmedical procedures7714NNSprocedure ,7715,, first7716JJfirst trimester7717NNtrimester abortion7718NNabortion is7719VBZbe among7720INamong the7721DTthe safest7722JJSsafe ,7723,, far7724RBfar safer7725JJRsafe than7726INthan childbirth7727NNchildbirth ?7728SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7729LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice7730NPJustice Ginsburg7731NPGinsburg ,7732,, a7733DTa first-trimester7734NNfirst-trimester abortion7735NNabortion can7736MDcan be7737VBbe either7738RBeither medical7739JJmedical or7740CCor surgical7741JJsurgical .7742SENT. And7743CCand even7744RBeven if7745INif it7746PPit 's7747VBZbe medical7748JJmedical ,7749,, the7750DTthe doctor7751NNdoctor should7752MDshould have7753VHhave the7754DTthe qualifications7755NNSqualification to7756TOto ...7757:... to7758TOto be7759VBbe able7760JJable to7761TOto handle7762VVhandle the7763DTthe most7764RBSmost likely7765JJlikely complication7766NNcomplication of7767INof that7768DTthat procedure7769NNprocedure ,7770,, which7771WDTwhich is7772VBZbe a7773DTa surgical7774JJsurgical abortion7775NNabortion .7776SENT. So7777RBso under7778INunder the7779DTthe standard7780NNstandard of7781INof care7782NNcare in7783INin Louisiana7784NPLouisiana ,7785,, even7786RBeven if7787INif it7788PPit 's7789VBZbe a7790DTa medical7791JJmedical ...7792:... even7793RBeven if7794INif it7795PPit 's7796VBZbe a7797DTa medication7798NNmedication abortion7799NNabortion ,7800,, the7801DTthe doctor7802NNdoctor should7803MDshould be7804VBbe able7805JJable to7806TOto handle7807VVhandle a7808DTa surgical7809JJsurgical abortion7810NNabortion and7811CCand be7812VBbe qualified7813VVNqualify to7814TOto do7815VVdo that7816DTthat .7817SENT. I7818PPI think7819VVPthink the7820DTthe record7821NNrecord is7822VBZbe questionable7823JJquestionable about7824RBabout whether7825INwhether Doe7826NPDoe 17827CD1 can7828MDcan even7829RBeven do7830VVdo that7831IN/thatthat because7832INbecause ...7833:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]7834LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Oh7835NPOh ,7836,, Doe7837NPDoe 17838CD1 ,7839,, everybody7840NNeverybody agreed7841VVDagree ,7842,, including7843VVGinclude the7844DTthe Fifth7845NPFifth Circuit7846NPCircuit ,7847,, that7848DTthat Doe7849NPDoe 17850CD1 is7851VBZbe barred7852VVNbar by7853INby this7854DTthis new7855JJnew law7856NNlaw .7857SENT. The7858DTthe old7859JJold law7860NNlaw said7861VVDsay that7862IN/thatthat you7863PPyou have7864VHPhave to7865TOto have7866VHhave admitting7867VVGadmit privileges7868NNSprivilege or7869CCor a7870DTa written7871JJwritten transfer7872NNtransfer agreement7873NNagreement .7874SENT. So7875RBso it7876PPit 's7877VBZbe a7878DTa little7879RBlittle hard7880JJhard to7881TOto see7882VVsee how7883WRBhow this7884DTthis improves7885VVZimprove anything7886NNanything since7887INsince you7888PPyou had7889VHDhave to7890TOto have7891VHhave a7892DTa written7893JJwritten transfer7894NNtransfer agreement7895NNagreement anyway7896RBanyway ;7897:; is7898VBZbe n't7899RBn't that7900DTthat true7901JJtrue or7902CCor not7903RBnot ?7904SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]7905LOC[MS. MURRILL] Which7906WDTwhich Doe7907NPDoe 17908CD1 did7909VVDdo not7910RBnot comply7911VVcomply with7912INwith .7913SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]7914LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Well7915UHWell ,7916,, well7917RBwell ...7918:... all7919DTall right7920NNright .7921SENT. But7922CCbut then7923RBthen I7924PPI do7925VVPdo n't7926RBn't know7927VVknow why7928WRBwhy the7929DTthe Fifth7930NPFifth Circuit7931NPCircuit court7932NNcourt of7933INof appeals7934NNSappeal ,7935,, which7936WDTwhich seemed7937VVDseem to7938TOto have7939VHhave problems7940NNSproblem with7941INwith the7942DTthe district7943NNdistrict court7944NNcourt ,7945,, agreed7946VVNagree with7947INwith the7948DTthe district7949NNdistrict court7950NNcourt as7951RBas to7952TOto Doe7953NPDoe 17954CD1 ,7955,, but7956CCbut that7957DTthat is7958VBZbe n't7959RBn't my7960PP$my question7961NNquestion .7962SENT. My7963PP$my question7964NNquestion is7965VBZbe we7966PPwe 're7967VBPbe not7968RBnot going7969VVGgo to7970TOto solve7971VVsolve this7972DTthis at7973INat oral7974JJoral argument7975NNargument .7976SENT. I7977PPI mean7978VVPmean ,7979,, what7980WPwhat I7981PPI 've7982VHPhave done7983VVNdo ,7984,, and7985CCand I7986PPI 'm7987VBPbe sure7988RBsure the7989DTthe others7990NNSother have7991VHPhave ,7992,, is7993VBZbe I7994PPI 've7995VHPhave gone7996VVNgo through7997INthrough the7998DTthe district7999NNdistrict court8000NNcourt findings8001NNSfinding and8002CCand I8003PPI have8004VHPhave gone8005VVNgo through8006INthrough the8007DTthe court8008NNcourt of8009INof appeals8010NNSappeal findings8011NNSfinding ,8012,, and8013CCand I8014PPI have8015VHPhave looked8016VVNlook at8017INat the8018DTthe relevant8019JJrelevant bits8020NNSbit of8021INof the8022DTthe record8023NNrecord through8024INthrough my8025PP$my office8026NNoffice and8027CCand will8028MDwill do8029VVdo more8030JJRmore of8031INof that8032DTthat .8033SENT. So8034RBso I8035PPI think8036VVPthink Doe8037NPDoe 28038CD2 is8039VBZbe your8040PP$your weakest8041JJSweak case8042NNcase .8043SENT. I8044PPI think8045VVPthink there8046EXthere are8047VBPbe others8048NNSother that8049WDTthat are8050VBPbe stronger8051JJRstrong .8052SENT. But8053CCbut I8054PPI 'd8055MDwould like8056VVlike your8057PP$your opinion8058NNopinion ,8059,, your8060PP$your opinion8061NNopinion ,8062,, about8063INabout which8064WDTwhich of8065INof these8066DTthese Does8067NPDoes is8068VBZbe your8069PP$your strongest8070JJSstrong ?8071SENT? And8072CCand I8073PPI 'll8074MDwill be8075VBbe sure8076JJsure to8077TOto look8078VVlook very8079RBvery carefully8080RBcarefully at8081INat that8082DTthat .8083SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]8084LOC[MS. MURRILL] My8085NPMy ...8086:... Justice8087NPJustice Breyer8088NPBreyer ,8089,, I8090PPI just8091RBjust want8092VVPwant to8093TOto understand8094VVunderstand your8095PP$your question8096NNquestion .8097SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]8098LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You8099PPyou do8100VVPdo n't8101RBn't understand8102VVunderstand ...8103:...

[MS. MURRILL]8104LOC[MS. MURRILL] My8105PP$my strongest8106JJSstrong ...8107:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8108LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I8109PPI 'm8110VBPbe saying8111VVGsay which8112WDTwhich is8113VBZbe strongest8114JJSstrong ...8115:... by8116INby the8117DTthe strongest8118JJSstrong ,8119,, I8120PPI mean8121VVPmean you8122PPyou 're8123VBPbe trying8124VVGtry to8125TOto make8126VVmake an8127DTan argument8128NNargument ,8129,, and8130CCand you8131PPyou have8132VHPhave four8133CDfour Does8134VVZdo that8135IN/thatthat you8136PPyou have8137VHPhave to8138TOto deal8139VVdeal with8140INwith .8141SENT. Okay8142JJokay ?8143SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]8144LOC[MS. MURRILL] So8145RBso ...8146:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8147LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And8148CCand so8149RBso I8150PPI want8151VVPwant to8152TOto know8153VVknow ,8154,, of8155INof your8156PP$your opinion8157NNopinion ,8158,, in8159INin respect8160NNrespect to8161TOto which8162WDTwhich Doe8163NPDoe is8164VBZbe your8165PP$your argument8166NNargument the8167DTthe strongest8168JJSstrong .8169SENT. Your8170PP$your argument8171NNargument is8172VBZbe that8173IN/thatthat the8174DTthe Fifth8175NPFifth Circuit8176NPCircuit was8177VBDbe right8178JJright to8179TOto overturn8180VVoverturn a8181DTa fact8182NNfact finding8183NNfinding and8184CCand ,8185,, with8186INwith Doe8187NPDoe 38188CD3 ,8189,, a8190DTa credibility8191NNcredibility finding8192VVGfind of8193INof the8194DTthe district8195NNdistrict court8196NNcourt .8197SENT. That8198DTthat 's8199VBZbe your8200PP$your argument8201NNargument .8202SENT. Now8203RBnow ,8204,, you8205PPyou have8206VHPhave to8207TOto support8208VVsupport that8209DTthat .8210SENT. And8211CCand I8212PPI want8213VVPwant to8214TOto know8215VVknow in8216INin respect8217NNrespect to8218TOto which8219WDTwhich Doe8220NPDoe you8221PPyou feel8222VVPfeel it8223PPit 's8224VBZbe the8225DTthe strongest8226JJSstrong support8227NNsupport for8228INfor you8229PPyou ?8230SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]8231LOC[MS. MURRILL] And8232CCand I8233PPI go8234VVPgo in8235INin order8236NNorder ?8237SENT?

[JUSTICE BREYER]8238LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Yeah8239NPYeah ...8240:...

[MS. MURRILL]8241LOC[MS. MURRILL] Can8242MDcan I8243PPI give8244VVgive you8245PPyou more8246JJRmore than8247INthan one8248CDone ?8249SENT?

[JUSTICE BREYER]8250LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...8251:... you8252PPyou can8253MDcan give8254VVgive me8255PPme all8256RBall of8257INof them8258PPthem if8259INif you8260PPyou want8261VVPwant ,8262,, but8263CCbut you8264PPyou do8265VVPdo n't8266RBn't have8267VHhave that8268DTthat much8269JJmuch time8270NNtime .8271SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]8272LOC[MS. MURRILL] All8273DTall right8274NNright .8275SENT. So8276RBso ...8277:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8278LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] And8279CCand if8280INif you8281PPyou have8282VHPhave a8283DTa ...8284:... if8285INif you8286PPyou want8287VVPwant to8288TOto say8289VVsay they8290PPthey 're8291VBPbe all8292RBall equally8293RBequally strong8294JJstrong ,8295,, fine8296JJfine .8297SENT. That8298DTthat 's8299VBZbe okay8300JJokay ,8301,, you8302PPyou can8303MDcan say8304VVsay that8305IN/thatthat because8306INbecause I8307PPI have8308VHPhave an8309DTan opinion8310NNopinion about8311INabout Doe8312NPDoe 28313CD2 ,8314,, at8315INat least8316JJSleast ,8317,, and8318CCand ...8319:... and8320CCand you8321PPyou can8322MDcan say8323VVsay what8324WPwhat you8325PPyou want8326VVPwant .8327SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]8328LOC[MS. MURRILL] Well8329UHwell ,8330,, I8331PPI mean8332VVPmean ...8333:... I8334PPI think8335VVPthink that8336IN/thatthat there8337EXthere 's8338VBZbe evidence8339NNevidence in8340INin virtually8341RBvirtually all8342RBall of8343INof them8344PPthem that8345IN/thatthat they8346PPthey sabotaged8347VVDsabotage their8348PP$their own8349JJown applications8350NNSapplication and8351CCand that8352DTthat Doe8353NPDoe 58354CD5 was8355VBDbe ...8356:... and8357CCand Doe8358NPDoe ...8359:... Doe8360NPDoe 58361CD5 obtained8362VVNobtain privileges8363NNSprivilege in8364INin Baton8365NPBaton Rouge8366NPRouge and8367CCand New8368NPNew Orleans8369NPOrleans ,8370,, asked8371VVDask only8372RBonly one8373CDone doctor8374NNdoctor to8375TOto back8376VVback him8377PPhim up8378RPup in8379INin Baton8380NPBaton Rouge8381NPRouge ,8382,, and8383CCand all8384DTall of8385INof the8386DTthe doctors8387NNSdoctor agreed8388VVDagree that8389WDTthat is8390VBZbe not8391RBnot difficult8392JJdifficult to8393TOto satisfy8394VVsatisfy .8395SENT. Doe8396NNSdoe 28397CD2 simply8398RBsimply ...8399:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8400LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] They8401PPthey do8402VVPdo n't8403RBn't all8404RBall agree8405VVagree .8406SENT. I8407PPI mean8408VVPmean ,8409,, that8410WDTthat 's8411VBZbe ...8412:... I8413PPI do8414VVPdo n't8415RBn't think8416VVthink .8417SENT. But8418CCbut we8419PPwe 're8420VBPbe not8421RBnot going8422VVGgo to8423TOto get8424VVget ...8425:... all8426RBall I8427PPI want8428VVPwant to8429TOto know8430VVknow is8431VBZbe a8432DTa number8433NNnumber .8434SENT. And8435CCand the8436DTthe reason8437NNreason is8438VBZbe we8439PPwe have8440VHPhave limited8441VVNlimit time8442NNtime and8443CCand I8444PPI could8445MDcould spend8446VVspend two8447CDtwo hours8448NNShour ...8449:...

[MS. MURRILL]8450LOC[MS. MURRILL] Well8451UHWell ,8452,, I8453PPI ...8454:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8455LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...8456:... discussing8457VVGdiscuss with8458INwith you8459PPyou Doe8460NPDoe 28461CD2 ,8462,, 38463CD3 ,8464,, 48465CD4 .8466SENT. All8467RBall I8468PPI want8469VVPwant to8470TOto know8471VVknow is8472VBZbe which8473WDTwhich should8474MDshould I8475PPI look8476VVlook at8477INat specially8478RBspecially hard8479JJhard ?8480SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]8481LOC[MS. MURRILL] I8482PPI would8483MDwould look8484VVlook at8485INat Doe8486NPDoe ...8487:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8488LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All8489DTall right8490NNright .8491SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]8492LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...8493:... who8494WPwho applied8495VVDapply to8496TOto one8497CDone out8498INout of8499INof nine8500CDnine hospitals8501NNShospital in8502INin New8503NPNew Orleans8504NPOrleans .8505SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]8506LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] That8507DTthat 's8508VBZbe what8509WPwhat I8510PPI think8511VVPthink .8512SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]8513LOC[MS. MURRILL] That8514DTthat 's8515VBZbe a8516DTa ...8517:... that8518WDTthat 's8519VBZbe a8520DTa good8521JJgood example8522NNexample .8523SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]8524LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] All8525DTall right8526NNright .8527SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8528LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] That8529DTthat ...8530:... that8531WDTthat 's8532VBZbe a8533DTa great8534JJgreat example8535NNexample ,8536,, because8537INbecause he8538PPhe 's8539VBZbe the8540DTthe doctor8541NNdoctor who8542WPwho does8543VVZdo only8544RBonly medical8545JJmedical abortions8546NNSabortion ,8547,, not8548RBnot surgical8549JJsurgical .8550SENT. He8551PPhe had8552VHDhave n't8553RBn't done8554VVNdo a8555DTa surgical8556JJsurgical procedure8557NNprocedure for8558INfor over8559RBover 128560CD@card@ years8561NNSyear .8562SENT. And8563CCand your8564PP$your state8565NNstate 's8566POS's own8567JJown expert8568NNexpert testified8569VVDtestify that8570IN/thatthat it8571PPit was8572VBDbe not8573RBnot likely8574JJlikely that8575IN/thatthat he8576PPhe was8577VBDbe going8578VVGgo to8579TOto get8580VVget privileges8581NNSprivilege anywhere8582RBanywhere because8583INbecause he8584PPhe only8585RBonly did8586VVDdo medical8587JJmedical procedures8588NNSprocedure ,8589,, never8590RBnever saw8591VVDsee a8592DTa patient8593NNpatient .8594SENT. In8595INin virtually8596RBvirtually all8597DTall of8598INof the8599DTthe hospitals8600NNShospital ,8601,, if8602INif not8603RBnot all8604RBall of8605INof them8606PPthem ,8607,, even8608RBeven if8609INif there8610EXthere was8611VBDbe n't8612RBn't ...8613:... like8614INlike in8615INin Tulane8616NPTulane ,8617,, even8618RBeven if8619INif there8620EXthere was8621VBDbe n't8622RBn't a8623DTa minimum8624JJminimum number8625NNnumber of8626INof patients8627NNSpatient that8628WDTthat had8629VHDhave to8630TOto be8631VBbe admitted8632VVNadmit before8633INbefore you8634PPyou got8635VVDget privileges8636NNSprivilege ,8637,, you8638PPyou had8639VHDhave to8640TOto see8641VVsee a8642DTa certain8643JJcertain number8644NNnumber of8645INof patients8646NNSpatient in8647INin the8648DTthe hospital8649NNhospital per8650INper year8651NNyear to8652TOto maintain8653VVmaintain your8654PP$your privileges8655NNSprivilege .8656SENT. And8657CCand he8658PPhe could8659MDcould n't8660RBn't meet8661VVmeet that8662DTthat requirement8663NNrequirement .8664SENT. So8665RBso you8666PPyou talk8667VVPtalk about8668INabout him8669PPhim applying8670VVGapply to8671TOto only8672RBonly one8673CDone hospital8674NNhospital in8675INin a8676DTa situation8677NNsituation where8678WRBwhere it8679PPit was8680VBDbe guaranteed8681VVNguarantee that8682IN/thatthat he8683PPhe could8684MDcould n't8685RBn't meet8686VVmeet the8687DTthe requirements8688NNSrequirement of8689INof any8690DTany hospital8691NNhospital .8692SENT. My8693PP$my understanding8694NNunderstanding of8695INof hospital8696NNhospital practice8697NNpractice today8698NNtoday is8699VBZbe you8700PPyou got8701VVDget to8702TOto stay8703VVstay alive8704RBalive only8705RBonly if8706INif somebody8707NNsomebody sees8708VVZsee patients8709NNSpatient ...8710:...

[MS. MURRILL]8711LOC[MS. MURRILL] If8712INif ...8713:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8714LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...8715:... because8716INbecause if8717INif they8718PPthey do8719VVPdo n't8720RBn't see8721VVsee patients8722NNSpatient ,8723,, they8724PPthey 're8725VBPbe of8726INof no8727DTno value8728NNvalue to8729TOto the8730DTthe hospital8731NNhospital .8732SENT. If8733INif the8734DTthe patients8735NNSpatient are8736VBPbe n't8737RBn't admitted8738VVNadmit and8739CCand there8740EXthere 's8741VBZbe no8742DTno circumstance8743NNcircumstance in8744INin which8745WDTwhich this8746DTthis doctor8747NNdoctor is8748VBZbe going8749VVGgo to8750TOto admit8751VVadmit a8752DTa patient8753NNpatient because8754INbecause he8755PPhe does8756VVZdo no8757DTno surgical8758JJsurgical procedures8759NNSprocedure ...8760:...

[MS. MURRILL]8761LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice8762NPJustice Sotomayor8763NPSotomayor ,8764,, I8765PPI think8766VVPthink the8767DTthe record8768NNrecord shows8769VVZshow that8770IN/thatthat the8771DTthe ...8772:... that8773IN/thatthat they8774PPthey can8775MDcan get8776VVget privileges8777NNSprivilege ,8778,, they8779PPthey did8780VVDdo get8781VVget privileges8782NNSprivilege ,8783,, and8784CCand there8785EXthere 's8786VBZbe nothing8787NNnothing in8788INin the8789DTthe bylaws8790NNSbylaw that8791WDTthat prohibits8792VVZprohibit them8793PPthem from8794INfrom being8795NNbeing ...8796:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]8797LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Your8798PP$your ...8799:... your8800PP$your own8801JJown expert8802NNexpert ,8803,, Dr8804NPDr .8805SENT. Marier8806NPMarier ,8807,, testified8808VVDtestify ,8809,, it8810PPit is8811VBZbe unlikely8812JJunlikely that8813IN/thatthat a8814DTa doctor8815NNdoctor who8816WPwho ,8817,, like8818INlike Doe8819NPDoe 68820CD6 does8821VVZdo ...8822:... does8823VVZdo what8824WPwhat Justice8825NPJustice Sotomayor8826NPSotomayor said8827VVDsay ,8828,, would8829MDwould "8830``" probably8831RBprobably not8832RBnot "8833''" be8834VBbe able8835JJable to8836TOto obtain8837VVobtain "8838``" active8839JJactive admitting8840VVGadmit and8841CCand surgical8842JJsurgical privileges8843NNSprivilege .8844SENT. "8845''" Now8846RBnow ,8847,, that8848WDTthat was8849VBDbe your8850PP$your expert8851NNexpert .8852SENT. And8853CCand the8854DTthe basis8855NNbasis of8856INof that8857DTthat ...8858:... and8859CCand various8860JJvarious other8861JJother things8862NNSthing ...8863:... the8864DTthe district8865NNdistrict court8866NNcourt finds8867VVZfind that8868IN/thatthat he8869PPhe did8870VVDdo n't8871RBn't have8872VHhave to8873TOto apply8874VVapply to8875TOto all8876PDTall the8877DTthe hospitals8878NNShospital because8879INbecause there8880EXthere was8881VBDbe no8882DTno point8883NNpoint because8884INbecause your8885PP$your expert8886NNexpert said8887VVDsay he8888PPhe probably8889RBprobably could8890MDcould not8891RBnot get8892VVget them8893PPthem .8894SENT. And8895CCand it8896PPit 's8897VBZbe on8898INon the8899DTthe basis8900NNbasis of8901INof that8902DTthat kind8903NNkind of8904INof thing8905NNthing that8906IN/thatthat the8907DTthe district8908NNdistrict court8909NNcourt held8910VVDhold that8911IN/thatthat he8912PPhe was8913VBDbe likely8914JJlikely not8915RBnot to8916TOto be8917VBbe able8918JJable to8919TOto practice8920VVpractice .8921SENT. Where8922WRBwhere does8923VVZdo the8924DTthe Fifth8925NPFifth Circuit8926NPCircuit able8927JJable to8928TOto say8929VVsay that8930IN/thatthat that8931DTthat was8932VBDbe clearly8933RBclearly wrong8934JJwrong ?8935SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]8936LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice8937NPJustice Breyer8938NPBreyer ,8939,, the8940DTthe Fifth8941NPFifth Circuit8942NPCircuit did8943VVDdo a8944DTa searching8945VVGsearch review8946NNreview of8947INof the8948DTthe record8949NNrecord just8950RBjust as8951RBas is8952VBZbe ...8953:... it8954PPit is8955VBZbe instructed8956VVNinstruct to8957TOto do8958VVdo by8959INby Whole8960JJwhole Woman8961NPWoman 's8962POS's Health8963NPHealth .8964SENT. And8965CCand ...8966:... and8967CCand ...8968:... in8969INin the8970DTthe brief8971JJbrief amount8972NNamount of8973INof time8974NNtime that8975IN/thatthat I8976PPI have8977VHPhave left8978VVNleave ,8979,, I8980PPI would8981MDwould like8982VVlike to8983TOto say8984VVsay just8985RBjust one8986CDone thing8987NNthing about8988INabout standing8989NNstanding .8990SENT. I8991PPI think8992VVPthink that8993IN/thatthat the8994DTthe record8995NNrecord is8996VBZbe ...8997:... the8998DTthe reason8999NNreason why9000WRBwhy it9001PPit demonstrates9002VVZdemonstrate that9003IN/thatthat these9004DTthese doctors9005NNSdoctor should9006MDshould not9007RBnot be9008VBbe able9009JJable to9010TOto challenge9011VVchallenge a9012DTa regulation9013NNregulation that9014WDTthat protects9015VVZprotect people9016NNSpeople ...9017:... that9018DTthat ...9019:... that9020WDTthat is9021VBZbe intended9022VVNintend to9023TOto protect9024VVprotect a9025DTa class9026NNclass of9027INof people9028NNSpeople from9029INfrom a9030DTa certain9031JJcertain type9032NNtype of9033INof activity9034NNactivity .9035SENT. It9036PPit 's9037VBZbe health9038NNhealth and9039CCand safety9040NNsafety regulations9041NNSregulation .9042SENT. As9043INas a9044DTa practical9045JJpractical matter9046NNmatter and9047CCand ...9048:... and9049CCand even9050RBeven yesterday9051RByesterday this9052DTthis Court9053NPCourt was9054VBDbe talking9055VVGtalk about9056INabout the9057DTthe fact9058NNfact that9059IN/thatthat consumers9060NNSconsumer are9061VBPbe protected9062VVNprotect by9063INby certain9064JJcertain body9065NNbody of9066INof laws9067NNSlaw .9068SENT. That9069DTthat 's9070VBZbe what9071WPwhat we9072PPwe are9073VBPbe doing9074VVGdo with9075INwith health9076NNhealth and9077CCand safety9078NNsafety regulations9079NNSregulation .9080SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9081LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] How9082NPHow does9083VVZdo that9084RBthat differ9085VVdiffer from9086INfrom Craig9087NPCraig against9088INagainst Boren9089NPBoren ?9090SENT?

[MS. MURRILL]9091LOC[MS. MURRILL] Craig9092NPCraig against9093INagainst Boren9094NPBoren and9095CCand ...9096:... first9097RBfirst of9098INof all9099DTall ,9100,, had9101VHDhave a9102DTa beer9103NNbeer buyer9104NNbuyer who9105WPwho was9106VBDbe a9107DTa first-party9108JJfirst-party plaintiff9109NNplaintiff in9110INin the9111DTthe beginning9112NNbeginning of9113INof the9114DTthe case9115NNcase all9116RBall the9117DTthe way9118NNway through9119INthrough until9120INuntil it9121PPit became9122VVDbecome ...9123:... got9124VVDget ...9125:... until9126INuntil it9127PPit was9128VBDbe on9129INon appeal9130NNappeal .9131SENT. In9132INin addition9133NNaddition to9134TOto that9135DTthat ,9136,, the9137DTthe state9138NNstate ...9139:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9140LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Yes9141NPYes ,9142,, but9143CCbut he9144PPhe did9145VVDdo n't9146RBn't count9147VVcount .9148SENT. The9149DTthe case9150NNcase rode9151VVDride on9152INon the9153DTthe owner9154NNowner of9155INof the9156DTthe Honk9157NNhonk '9158POS' n9159NNn Holler9160NPHoller 's9161POS's standing9162NNstanding .9163SENT. Craig9164NPCraig turned9165VVDturn 219166CD@card@ .9167SENT. He9168PPhe was9169VBDbe no9170RBno longer9171RBRlonger subject9172JJsubject to9173TOto the9174DTthe law9175NNlaw .9176SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]9177LOC[MS. MURRILL] Which9178WDTwhich is9179VBZbe why9180WRBwhy I9181PPI believe9182VVPbelieve it9183PPit 's9184VBZbe better9185RBRwell characterized9186VVNcharacterize as9187INas a9188DTa mootness9189NNmootness case9190NNcase ,9191,, but9192CCbut I9193PPI would9194MDwould also9195RBalso point9196VVpoint out9197RPout the9198DTthe law9199NNlaw at9200INat issue9201NNissue ...9202:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9203LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But9204CCbut the9205DTthe standing9206NNstanding ...9207:... the9208DTthe Court9209NPCourt went9210VVDgo on9211INon to9212TOto the9213DTthe merits9214NNSmerit solely9215RBsolely on9216INon the9217DTthe basis9218NNbasis of9219INof the9220DTthe beer9221NNbeer seller9222NNseller 's9223POS's standing9224NNstanding ,9225,, and9226CCand you9227PPyou 've9228VHPhave got9229VVNget a9230DTa state9231NNstate regulation9232NNregulation that9233WDTthat is9234VBZbe ...9235:... ostensibly9236RBostensibly was9237VBDbe designed9238VVNdesign to9239TOto protect9240VVprotect these9241DTthese vulnerable9242JJvulnerable boys9243NNSboy from9244INfrom drinking9245VVGdrink beer9246NNbeer and9247CCand getting9248VVGget into9249INinto accidents9250NNSaccident .9251SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]9252LOC[MS. MURRILL] May9253NPmay I9254PPI ?9255SENT?

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9256LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] It9257PPit 's9258VBZbe a9259DTa dangerous9260JJdangerous ...9261:...

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9262LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Very9263JJVery ...9264:... very9265RBvery ,9266,, very9267RBvery briefly9268RBbriefly ,9269,, counsel9270NNcounsel .9271SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]9272LOC[MS. MURRILL] Justice9273NPJustice Ginsburg9274NPGinsburg ,9275,, my9276PP$my ...9277:... my9278PP$my answer9279NNanswer to9280TOto that9281WDTthat is9282VBZbe that9283IN/thatthat the9284DTthe ...9285:... the9286DTthe buyer9287NNbuyer in9288INin that9289DTthat case9290NNcase was9291VBDbe much9292RBmuch more9293RBRmore just9294RBjust ...9295:... it9296PPit was9297VBDbe much9298RBmuch more9299RBRmore just9300RBjust a9301DTa financial9302JJfinancial transaction9303NNtransaction .9304SENT. Their9305PP$their interests9306NNSinterest were9307VBDbe better9308RBRwell aligned9309VVNalign because9310INbecause he9311PPhe was9312VBDbe not9313RBnot prohibited9314VVNprohibit from9315INfrom consuming9316VVGconsume or9317CCor possessing9318VVGpossess the9319DTthe alcohol9320NNalcohol .9321SENT. So9322INso it9323PPit ...9324:...

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9325LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank9326VVthank you9327PPyou .9328SENT.

[MS. MURRILL]9329LOC[MS. MURRILL] ...9330:... really9331RBreally was9332VBDbe n't9333RBn't a9334DTa health9335NNhealth ...9336:...

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9337LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank9338VVthank you9339PPyou ,9340,, counsel9341NNcounsel .9342SENT. General9343NPGeneral Wall9344NPWall .9345SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]9346LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Mr9347NPMr .9348SENT. Chief9349NPChief Justice9350NPJustice ,9351,, and9352CCand may9353MDmay it9354PPit please9355VVplease the9356DTthe Court9357NPCourt :9358:: Petitioners9359NNSpetitioner '9360POS' counsel9361NNcounsel began9362VVDbegin this9363DTthis morning9364NNmorning by9365INby saying9366VVGsay that9367IN/thatthat this9368DTthis case9369NNcase is9370VBZbe about9371RBabout respect9372NNrespect for9373INfor the9374DTthe Court9375NPCourt 's9376POS's precedents9377NNSprecedent ,9378,, but9379CCbut she9380PPshe went9381VVDgo on9382RPon to9383TOto acknowledge9384VVacknowledge two9385CDtwo rather9386RBrather remarkable9387JJremarkable propositions9388NNSproposition that9389WDTthat flow9390VVPflow from9391INfrom the9392DTthe logic9393NNlogic of9394INof Petitioners9395NNSpetitioner '9396POS' position9397NNposition and9398CCand that9399WDTthat are9400VBPbe nowhere9401RBnowhere to9402TOto be9403VBbe found9404VVNfind in9405INin the9406DTthe Court9407NPCourt 's9408POS's cases9409NNScase .9410SENT. To9411TOTo you9412PPyou ,9413,, Justice9414NPJustice Alito9415NPAlito ,9416,, that9417IN/thatthat the9418DTthe plaintiffs9419NNSplaintiff may9420MDmay bring9421VVbring this9422DTthis suit9423NNsuit even9424RBeven if9425INif there9426EXthere is9427VBZbe a9428DTa potential9429JJpotential or9430CCor actual9431JJactual conflict9432NNconflict of9433INof interest9434NNinterest with9435INwith Louisiana9436NPLouisiana women9437NNSwoman .9438SENT. And9439CCand to9440TOto you9441PPyou ,9442,, Justice9443NPJustice Kavanaugh9444NPKavanaugh ,9445,, that9446IN/thatthat this9447DTthis law9448NNlaw would9449MDwould be9450VBbe unconstitutional9451JJunconstitutional even9452RBeven if9453INif all9454DTall providers9455NNSprovider in9456INin Louisiana9457NPLouisiana already9458RBalready had9459VHDhave admitting9460VVGadmit privileges9461NNSprivilege or9462CCor could9463MDcould easily9464RBeasily get9465VVget them9466PPthem .9467SENT. I9468PPI do9469VVPdo think9470VVthink ,9471,, though9472RBthough ,9473,, Petitioners9474NNSpetitioner did9475VVDdo acknowledge9476VVacknowledge what9477WPwhat is9478VBZbe in9479INin the9480DTthe Court9481NPCourt 's9482POS's cases9483NNScase ,9484,, which9485WDTwhich is9486VBZbe ,9487,, to9488TOto your9489PP$your question9490NNquestion ,9491,, Mr9492NPMr .9493SENT. Chief9494NPChief Justice9495NPJustice ,9496,, that9497IN/thatthat the9498DTthe burdens9499NNSburden may9500MDmay vary9501VVvary by9502INby state9503NNstate .9504SENT. At9505INat that9506DTthat point9507NNpoint under9508INunder the9509DTthe substantial9510JJsubstantial obstacle9511NNobstacle test9512NNtest ,9513,, we9514PPwe ought9515MDought to9516TOto be9517VBbe talking9518VVGtalk about9519INabout Does9520NPDoes 29521CD2 ,9522,, 59523CD5 ,9524,, and9525CCand 69526CD6 ,9527,, and9528CCand how9529WRBhow much9530JJmuch of9531INof a9532DTa burden9533NNburden there9534EXthere actually9535RBactually was9536VBDbe on9537INon them9538PPthem ,9539,, instead9540RBinstead of9541INof pivoting9542VVGpivot to9543TOto the9544DTthe benefits9545NNSbenefit .9546SENT. And9547CCand to9548TOto ...9549:... to9550TOto you9551PPyou ,9552,, Justice9553NPJustice Alito9554NPAlito ,9555,, that9556WDTthat 's9557VBZbe not9558RBnot a9559DTa clear9560JJclear error9561NNerror question9562NNquestion .9563SENT. Nobody9564NNnobody disputes9565VVZdispute what9566WPwhat the9567DTthe doctors9568NNSdoctor did9569VVDdo .9570SENT. We9571PPwe 're9572VBPbe all9573RBall agreed9574VVNagree on9575INon the9576DTthe facts9577NNSfact .9578SENT. There9579EXthere 's9580VBZbe no9581DTno factual9582JJfactual dispute9583NNdispute about9584INabout what9585WPwhat the9586DTthe doctors9587NNSdoctor did9588VVDdo and9589CCand did9590VVDdo n't9591RBn't do9592VVdo .9593SENT. It9594PPit 's9595VBZbe about9596RBabout how9597WRBhow rigorously9598RBrigorously we9599PPwe ...9600:... we9601PPwe 're9602VBPbe going9603VVGgo to9604TOto ...9605:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9606LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But9607CCbut what9608WPwhat sense9609NNsense ...9610:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]9611LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...9612:... review9613VVreview their9614PP$their fairly9615RBfairly modest9616JJmodest efforts9617NNSeffort .9618SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9619LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] What9620WPWhat sense9621NNsense does9622VVZdo this9623DTthis 30-mile9624JJ30-mile ...9625:... that9626WDTthat 's9627VBZbe what9628WPwhat I9629PPI do9630VVPdo n't9631RBn't understand9632VVunderstand .9633SENT. I9634PPI think9635VVPthink everybody9636NNeverybody also9637RBalso agrees9638VVZagree that9639IN/thatthat the9640DTthe most9641RBSmost likely9642JJlikely place9643NNplace the9644DTthe woman9645NNwoman will9646MDwill be9647VBbe if9648INif she9649PPshe needs9650VVZneed to9651TOto be9652VBbe in9653INin a9654DTa hospital9655NNhospital ,9656,, she9657PPshe 'll9658MDwill be9659VBbe at9660INat home9661NNhome .9662SENT. She9663PPshe won9664MDwill 't9665RB't ...9666:... and9667CCand her9668PP$her home9669NNhome has9670VHZhave no9671DTno necessary9672JJnecessary relationship9673NNrelationship to9674TOto miles9675NNSmile from9676INfrom a9677DTa clinic9678NNclinic .9679SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]9680LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] So9681INso two9682CDtwo points9683NNSpoint ,9684,, Justice9685NPJustice Ginsburg9686NPGinsburg .9687SENT. Again9688RBagain ,9689,, that9690WDTthat 's9691VBZbe going9692VVGgo straight9693RBstraight to9694TOto the9695DTthe benefits9696NNSbenefit and9697CCand bypassing9698VVGbypass the9699DTthe burdens9700NNSburden ,9701,, not9702RBnot looking9703VVGlook first9704JJfirst to9705TOto whether9706INwhether there9707EXthere 's9708VBZbe a9709DTa substantial9710JJsubstantial obstacle9711NNobstacle .9712SENT. But9713CCbut to9714TOto go9715VVgo straight9716RBstraight to9717TOto your9718PP$your question9719NNquestion ,9720,, all9721DTall admitting9722VVGadmit privileges9723NNSprivilege requirements9724NNSrequirement of9725INof which9726WDTwhich I9727PPI am9728VBPbe aware9729JJaware ,9730,, and9731CCand they9732PPthey 're9733VBPbe fairly9734RBfairly uncontroversial9735JJuncontroversial in9736INin the9737DTthe medical9738JJmedical field9739NNfield ,9740,, have9741VHPhave some9742DTsome distance9743NNdistance limitation9744NNlimitation .9745SENT. And9746CCand I9747PPI think9748VVPthink the9749DTthe ...9750:... the9751DTthe benefits9752NNSbenefit that9753WDTthat they9754PPthey go9755VVPgo to9756TOto ,9757,, the9758DTthe most9759RBSmost obvious9760JJobvious is9761VBZbe the9762DTthe continuity9763NNcontinuity of9764INof care9765NNcare ,9766,, right9767RBright ,9768,, because9769INbecause you9770PPyou want9771VVPwant the9772DTthe doctor9773NNdoctor to9774TOto be9775VBbe able9776JJable to9777TOto admit9778VVadmit them9779PPthem at9780INat some9781DTsome nearby9782JJnearby hospital9783NNhospital ,9784,, and9785CCand at9786INat least9787JJSleast in9788INin some9789DTsome rural9790JJrural areas9791NNSarea ,9792,, there9793EXthere is9794VBZbe n't9795RBn't always9796RBalways a9797DTa hospital9798NNhospital right9799NNright around9800INaround the9801DTthe road9802NNroad ,9803,, so9804RBso whether9805INwhether you9806PPyou draw9807VVPdraw it9808PPit 159809CD@card@ or9810CCor 209811CD@card@ or9812CCor 309813CD@card@ miles9814NNSmile .9815SENT. And9816CCand with9817INwith respect9818NNrespect to9819TOto credentialing9820NNcredentialing ,9821,, it9822PPit makes9823VVZmake sense9824NNsense to9825TOto think9826VVthink ...9827:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9828LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But9829CCbut it9830PPit just9831RBjust ...9832:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]9833LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...9834:... that9835IN/thatthat the9836DTthe doctors9837NNSdoctor ...9838:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]9839LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] ...9840:... it9841PPit just9842RBjust supposed9843VVDsuppose starting9844VVGstart out9845RPout from9846INfrom the9847DTthe clinic9848NNclinic where9849WRBwhere she9850PPshe won9851MDwill 't9852RB't be9853VBbe .9854SENT. She9855PPshe 's9856VBZbe not9857RBnot going9858VVGgo to9859TOto be9860VBbe at9861INat the9862DTthe clinic9863NNclinic .9864SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]9865LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well9866UHWell ,9867,, that9868WDTthat 's9869VBZbe often9870RBoften true9871JJtrue ,9872,, Justice9873NPJustice Ginsburg9874NPGinsburg ,9875,, but9876CCbut the9877DTthe record9878NNrecord here9879RBhere ,9880,, unlike9881INunlike in9882INin Hellerstedt9883NPHellerstedt ,9884,, reveals9885VVZreveal that9886IN/thatthat sometimes9887RBsometimes it9888PPit 's9889VBZbe not9890RBnot true9891JJtrue ,9892,, that9893WDTthat sometimes9894RBsometimes women9895NNSwoman develop9896VVPdevelop complications9897NNScomplication in9898INin the9899DTthe clinic9900NNclinic and9901CCand ,9902,, in9903INin fact9904NNfact ,9905,, Doe9906NPDoe 39907CD3 ,9908,, who9909WPwho I9910PPI think9911VVPthink on9912INon this9913DTthis record9914NNrecord is9915VBZbe probably9916RBprobably the9917DTthe most9918RBSmost competent9919JJcompetent of9920INof the9921DTthe Does9922NPDoes and9923CCand is9924VBZbe the9925DTthe medical9926JJmedical director9927NNdirector at9928INat Hope9929NPHope ,9930,, said9931VVDsay that9932IN/thatthat he9933PPhe has9934VHZhave on9935INon occasion9936NNoccasion had9937VHDhave a9938DTa patient9939NNpatient who9940WPwho develops9941VVZdevelop a9942DTa problem9943NNproblem like9944INlike a9945DTa perforated9946JJperforated uterus9947NNuterus and9948CCand admitted9949VVNadmit into9950INinto the9951DTthe hospital9952NNhospital and9953CCand treated9954VVDtreat it9955PPit .9956SENT. So9957RBso even9958RBeven Doe9959NPDoe 39960CD3 thinks9961VVZthink of9962INof that9963DTthat as9964INas a9965DTa best9966RBSwell medical9967JJmedical practice9968NNpractice .9969SENT. Now9970RBnow ,9971,, granted9972VVDgrant ,9973,, we9974PPwe do9975VVPdo n't9976RBn't know9977VVknow how9978WRBhow often9979RBoften it9980PPit happens9981VVZhappen and9982CCand ,9983,, Justice9984NPJustice Kagan9985NPKagan ,9986,, I9987PPI 'm9988VBPbe prepared9989VVNprepare to9990TOto concede9991VVconcede that9992IN/thatthat it9993PPit may9994MDmay not9995RBnot happen9996VVhappen all9997PDTall that9998DTthat often9999RBoften .10000SENT. I10001PPI do10002VVPdo n't10003RBn't think10004VVthink anybody10005NNanybody knows10006VVZknow the10007DTthe real10008JJreal rate10009NNrate .10010SENT. But10011CCbut the10012DTthe point10013NNpoint is10014VBZbe that10015IN/thatthat it10016PPit does10017VVZdo happen10018VVhappen .10019SENT. And10020CCand when10021WRBwhen it10022PPit does10023VVZdo it10024PPit 's10025VBZbe very10026RBvery serious10027JJserious .10028SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]10029LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] But10030CCbut it10031PPit would10032MDwould ...10033:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]10034LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] And10035CCand Louisiana10036NPLouisiana ...10037:...

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]10038LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] It10039PPit would10040MDwould never10041RBnever happen10042VVhappen to10043TOto the10044DTthe ...10045:... when10046WRBwhen you10047PPyou go10048VVPgo to10049TOto the10050DTthe clinic10051NNclinic just10052RBjust to10053TOto take10054VVtake two10055CDtwo pills10056NNSpill and10057CCand go10058VVgo home10059NNhome .10060SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10061LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well10062UHWell ,10063,, if10064INif you10065PPyou develop10066VVPdevelop a10067DTa complication10068NNcomplication at10069INat home10070NNhome ,10071,, it10072PPit 's10073VBZbe not10074RBnot ...10075:... the10076DTthe ...10077:... it10078PPit 's10079VBZbe not10080RBnot clear10081JJclear that10082IN/thatthat you10083PPyou won10084MDwill 't10085RB't call10086VVcall the10087DTthe clinic10088NNclinic and10089CCand say10090VVPsay to10091TOto your10092PP$your doctor10093NNdoctor I10094PPI 'm10095VBPbe having10096VHGhave a10097DTa problem10098NNproblem ,10099,, and10100CCand your10101PP$your doctor10102NNdoctor will10103MDwill say10104VVsay then10105RBthen go10106VVgo to10107TOto the10108DTthe following10109VVGfollow hospital10110NNhospital where10111WRBwhere I10112PPI have10113VHPhave privileges10114NNSprivilege ,10115,, I10116PPI 'll10117MDwill meet10118VVmeet you10119PPyou there10120RBthere .10121SENT. Now10122RBnow ,10123,, that10124WDTthat 's10125VBZbe not10126RBnot to10127TOto say10128VVsay as10129INas a10130DTa patient10131NNpatient that10132WDTthat 's10133VBZbe necessarily10134RBnecessarily what10135WPwhat you10136PPyou would10137MDwould want10138VVwant .10139SENT. But10140CCbut it10141PPit 's10142VBZbe hard10143JJhard for10144INfor me10145PPme to10146TOto believe10147VVbelieve that10148IN/thatthat women10149NNSwoman in10150INin Louisiana10151NPLouisiana would10152MDwould n't10153RBn't at10154INat least10155JJSleast want10156VVwant the10157DTthe option10158NNoption to10159TOto be10160VBbe treated10161VVNtreat by10162INby the10163DTthe doctor10164NNdoctor ...10165:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10166LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr10167NPMr .10168SENT. Wall10169NPWall ...10170:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]10171LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...10172:... they10173PPthey saw10174VVDsee at10175INat the10176DTthe clinic10177NNclinic .10178SENT.

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10179LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...10180:... are10181VBPbe you10182PPyou taking10183VVGtake the10184DTthe position10185NNposition that10186IN/thatthat there10187EXthere is10188VBZbe no10189DTno woman10190NNwoman in10191INin Louisiana10192NPLouisiana who10193WPwho does10194VVZdo n't10195RBn't feel10196VVfeel burdened10197VVNburden by10198INby this10199DTthis law10200NNlaw ?10201SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]10202LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I10203PPI ...10204:... I10205PPI 'm10206VBPbe taking10207VVGtake the10208DTthe position10209NNposition that10210WDTthat ...10211:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10212LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No10213UHNo ,10214,, no10215UHno .10216SENT. Answer10217VVanswer that10218DTthat question10219NNquestion .10220SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10221LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well10222UHWell ...10223:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10224LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Is10225VBZbe there10226RBthere at10227INat least10228JJSleast one10229CDone potential10230JJpotential woman10231NNwoman you10232PPyou believe10233VVPbelieve that10234IN/thatthat could10235MDcould bring10236VVbring this10237DTthis lawsuit10238NNlawsuit ?10239SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]10240LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I10241PPI assume10242VVPassume that10243IN/thatthat there10244EXthere are10245VBPbe ...10246:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10247LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] All10248DTall right10249NNright .10250SENT. Now10251RBnow ...10252:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]10253LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...10254:... but10255CCbut they10256PPthey have10257VHPhave not10258RBnot sued10259VVNsue ...10260:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10261LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...10262:... stop10263VVstop a10264DTa moment10265NNmoment .10266SENT. Assuming10267VVGassume ...10268:... we10269PPwe assume10270VVPassume ,10271,, because10272INbecause it10273PPit 's10274VBZbe logical10275JJlogical ,10276,, okay10277JJokay ,10278,, the10279DTthe woman10280NNwoman who10281WPwho lives10282VVZlive 30010283CD@card@ ...10284:... there10285EXthere is10286VBZbe going10287VVGgo to10288TOto be10289VBbe some10290DTsome woman10291NNwoman who10292WPwho lives10293VVZlive 33010294CD@card@ miles10295NNSmile away10296RBaway ,10297,, who10298WPwho 's10299VBZbe going10300VVGgo to10301TOto say10302VVsay that10303DTthat 's10304VBZbe an10305DTan unusually10306RBunusually long10307JJlong period10308NNperiod of10309INof time10310NNtime for10311INfor me10312PPme to10313TOto have10314VHhave to10315TOto drive10316VVdrive and10317CCand then10318RBthen drive10319VVdrive back10320RBback the10321DTthe same10322JJsame day10323NNday .10324SENT. All10325DTall right10326NNright ?10327SENT? But10328CCbut putting10329VVGput or10330CCor ...10331:... or10332CCor the10333DTthe next10334JJnext day10335NNday .10336SENT. Putting10337VVGput that10338IN/thatthat aside10339RBaside ,10340,, where10341WRBwhere is10342VBZbe there10343RBthere a10344DTa conflict10345NNconflict between10346INbetween that10347DTthat woman10348NNwoman and10349CCand the10350DTthe doctor10351NNdoctor ?10352SENT? If10353INif that10354DTthat woman10355NNwoman is10356VBZbe going10357VVGgo to10358TOto take10359VVtake the10360DTthe position10361NNposition that10362IN/thatthat this10363DTthis law10364NNlaw unduly10365RBunduly burdens10366VVZburden me10367PPme ,10368,, what10369WPwhat 's10370VBZbe the10371DTthe potential10372JJpotential conflict10373NNconflict ?10374SENT? She10375PPshe 's10376VBZbe going10377VVGgo to10378TOto come10379VVcome in10380RPin and10381CCand say10382VVsay you10383PPyou doctors10384NNSdoctor could10385MDcould get10386VVget credentialing10387VVGcredentialing so10388INso I10389PPI really10390RBreally should10391MDshould n't10392RBn't sue10393VVsue ?10394SENT? You10395PPyou doctors10396NNSdoctor have10397VHPhave n't10398RBn't really10399RBreally made10400VVNmake an10401DTan effort10402NNeffort so10403INso I10404PPI really10405RBreally should10406MDshould n't10407RBn't sue10408VVsue ?10409SENT? What10410WPWhat sane10411JJsane woman10412NNwoman who10413WPwho 's10414VBZbe a10415DTa plaintiff10416NNplaintiff is10417VBZbe going10418VVGgo to10419TOto have10420VHhave a10421DTa conflict10422NNconflict with10423INwith a10424DTa doctor10425NNdoctor who10426WPwho wants10427VVZwant to10428TOto protect10429VVprotect her10430PP$her rights10431NNSright by10432INby doing10433VVGdo what10434WPwhat they10435PPthey can10436MDcan to10437TOto comply10438VVcomply with10439INwith the10440DTthe law10441NNlaw ,10442,, or10443CCor not10444RBnot ,10445,, but10446CCbut their10447PP$their interests10448NNSinterest are10449VBPbe not10450RBnot misaligned10451JJmisaligned ,10452,, they10453PPthey want10454VVPwant to10455TOto achieve10456VVachieve the10457DTthe same10458JJsame holding10459NNholding ,10460,, that10461IN/thatthat this10462DTthis law10463NNlaw unduly10464RBunduly burdens10465VVZburden her10466PP$her right10467NNright to10468TOto abortion10469NNabortion .10470SENT. The10471DTthe ...10472:... I10473PPI ...10474:... I10475PPI ...10476:... I10477PPI 'm10478VBPbe ...10479:... I10480PPI do10481VVPdo n't10482RBn't see10483VVsee a10484DTa conflict10485NNconflict with10486INwith that10487DTthat .10488SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10489LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well10490UHwell ,10491,, I10492PPI would10493MDwould say10494VVsay two10495CDtwo things10496NNSthing ,10497,, Justice10498NPJustice Sotomayor10499NPSotomayor :10500:: Their10501PP$their interests10502NNSinterest are10503VBPbe not10504RBnot necessarily10505RBnecessarily aligned10506VVNalign .10507SENT. One10508PPone is10509VBZbe the10510DTthe interest10511NNinterest of10512INof for-profit10513JJfor-profit providers10514NNSprovider and10515CCand not10516RBnot being10517VBGbe regulated10518VVNregulate in10519INin particular10520JJparticular ways10521NNSway .10522SENT. The10523DTthe other10524JJother is10525VBZbe the10526DTthe interest10527NNinterest of10528INof women10529NNSwoman in10530INin their10531PP$their own10532JJown health10533NNhealth and10534CCand safety10535NNsafety .10536SENT. Now10537RBnow ,10538,, I10539PPI do10540VVPdo n't10541RBn't know10542VVknow how10543WRBhow those10544DTthose would10545MDwould have10546VHhave played10547VVNplay out10548RPout if10549INif the10550DTthe women10551NNSwoman had10552VHDhave filed10553VVNfile suit10554NNsuit .10555SENT. I10556PPI do10557VVPdo n't10558RBn't know10559VVknow ...10560:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10561LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well10562UHWell ,10563,, please10564UHplease tell10565VVtell me10566PPme ...10567:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]10568LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...10569:... how10570WRBhow they10571PPthey would10572MDwould have10573VHhave ...10574:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10575LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...10576:... what10577WPwhat you10578PPyou imagine10579VVPimagine .10580SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10581LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] But10582CCbut to10583TOto give10584VVgive you10585PPyou a10586DTa couple10587NNcouple of10588INof examples10589NNSexample ...10590:...

[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]10591LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Okay10592NPOkay .10593SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10594LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] ...10595:... just10596RBjust to10597TOto give10598VVgive you10599PPyou ...10600:... it10601PPit 's10602VBZbe not10603RBnot clear10604JJclear to10605TOto me10606PPme that10607IN/thatthat women10608NNSwoman would10609MDwould have10610VHhave brought10611VVNbring facial10612JJfacial challenge10613NNchallenge .10614SENT. Maybe10615RBmaybe all10616RBall of10617INof the10618DTthe current10619JJcurrent providers10620NNSprovider in10621INin Louisiana10622NPLouisiana ...10623:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]10624LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] How10625WRBHow do10626VVPdo you10627PPyou deal10628VVdeal with10629INwith this10630DTthis ?10631SENT? I10632PPI mean10633VVPmean ,10634,, I10635PPI ...10636:... I10637PPI have10638VHPhave read10639VVNread the10640DTthe briefs10641NNSbrief .10642SENT. I10643PPI understand10644VVPunderstand there10645EXthere are10646VBPbe good10647JJgood arguments10648NNSargument on10649INon both10650DTboth sides10651NNSside .10652SENT. Indeed10653RBindeed ,10654,, in10655INin the10656DTthe country10657NNcountry people10658NNSpeople have10659VHPhave very10660RBvery strong10661JJstrong feelings10662NNSfeeling and10663CCand a10664DTa lot10665NNlot of10666INof people10667NNSpeople morally10668RBmorally think10669VVPthink it10670PPit 's10671VBZbe wrong10672JJwrong and10673CCand a10674DTa lot10675NNlot of10676INof people10677NNSpeople morally10678RBmorally think10679VVPthink the10680DTthe opposite10681NNopposite is10682VBZbe wrong10683JJwrong .10684SENT. And10685CCand in10686INin Casey10687NPCasey ,10688,, and10689CCand the10690DTthe later10691JJRlate cases10692NNScase ,10693,, I10694PPI think10695VVPthink personally10696RBpersonally the10697DTthe Court10698NPCourt is10699VBZbe struggling10700VVGstruggle with10701INwith the10702DTthe problem10703NNproblem of10704INof what10705WPwhat kind10706NNkind of10707INof rule10708NNrule of10709INof law10710NNlaw do10711VVPdo you10712PPyou have10713VHPhave in10714INin a10715DTa country10716NNcountry that10717WDTthat contains10718VVZcontain both10719DTboth sorts10720NNSsort of10721INof people10722NNSpeople .10723SENT. Not10724RBnot ...10725:... all10726DTall right10727NNright .10728SENT. So10729RBso ,10730,, therefore10731RBtherefore ,10732,, I10733PPI take10734VVPtake Casey10735NPCasey as10736RBas given10737VVNgive .10738SENT. And10739CCand I10740PPI think10741VVPthink eight10742CDeight cases10743NNScase where10744WRBwhere you10745PPyou 've10746VHPhave given10747VVNgive standing10748VVGstand ,10749,, I10750PPI mean10751VVPmean ,10752,, we10753PPwe could10754MDcould go10755VVgo back10756RBback and10757CCand reexamine10758VVreexamine Marbury10759NPMarbury versus10760CCversus Madison10761NPMadison ,10762,, but10763CCbut really10764RBreally we10765PPwe have10766VHPhave eight10767CDeight cases10768NNScase in10769INin the10770DTthe abortion10771NNabortion area10772NNarea ,10773,, we10774PPwe have10775VHPhave several10776JJseveral cases10777NNScase in10778INin other10779JJother areas10780NNSarea ,10781,, and10782CCand Whole10783JJwhole Woman10784NPWoman 's10785POS's Health10786NPHealth picks10787VVZpick that10788IN/thatthat up10789RBup .10790SENT. Casey10791NPCasey picks10792VVZpick that10793IN/thatthat up10794RBup .10795SENT. And10796CCand you10797PPyou really10798RBreally want10799VVPwant us10800PPus to10801TOto go10802VVgo back10803RBback and10804CCand reexamine10805VVreexamine this10806DTthis ,10807,, let10808VVlet 's10809VBZbe go10810VVgo back10811RBback and10812CCand reexamine10813VVreexamine Marbury10814NPMarbury versus10815CCversus Madison10816NPMadison .10817SENT. And10818CCand ...10819:... and10820CCand you10821PPyou have10822VHPhave good10823JJgood arguments10824NNSargument .10825SENT. But10826CCbut why10827WRBwhy depart10828VVPdepart from10829INfrom what10830WPwhat was10831VBDbe pretty10832RBpretty clear10833JJclear precedent10834NNprecedent ?10835SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]10836LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I10837PPI ...10838:... I10839PPI do10840VVPdo n't10841RBn't want10842VVwant to10843TOto go10844VVgo back10845RBback to10846TOto 178910847CD@card@ ,10848,, Justice10849NPJustice Breyer10850NPBreyer ,10851,, but10852CCbut I10853PPI ...10854:... I10855PPI do10856VVPdo ...10857:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]10858LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You10859PPyou want10860VVPwant to10861TOto go10862VVgo back10863RBback for10864INfor 4010865CD@card@ years10866NNSyear ?10867SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]10868LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well10869UHwell ,10870,, I10871PPI think10872VVPthink what10873WPwhat we10874PPwe want10875VVPwant to10876TOto say10877VVsay is10878VBZbe that10879IN/thatthat in10880INin none10881NNnone of10882INof those10883DTthose cases10884NNScase has10885VHZhave the10886DTthe Court10887NPCourt ever10888RBever considered10889VVDconsider and10890CCand ...10891:... and10892CCand signed10893VVDsign off10894RPoff in10895INin the10896DTthe face10897NNface of10898INof a10899DTa potential10900JJpotential or10901CCor actual10902JJactual conflict10903NNconflict of10904INof interest10905NNinterest .10906SENT. So10907RBso ,10908,, yes10909UHyes ,10910,, this10911DTthis is10912VBZbe an10913DTan argument10914NNargument that10915WDTthat has10916VHZhave never10917RBnever been10918VBNbe in10919INin front10920NNfront of10921INof Court10922NPCourt and10923CCand we10924PPwe do10925VVPdo n't10926RBn't think10927VVthink the10928DTthe Court10929NPCourt now10930RBnow faced10931VVDface with10932INwith it10933PPit should10934MDshould accept10935VVaccept it10936PPit .10937SENT. And10938CCand if10939INif ...10940:...

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]10941LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] General10942NPGeneral ,10943,, I10944PPI know10945VVPknow you10946PPyou have10947VHPhave limited10948VVNlimit time10949NNtime .10950SENT. And10951CCand I10952PPI understand10953VVPunderstand the10954DTthe point10955NNpoint that10956IN/thatthat the10957DTthe impact10958NNimpact of10959INof the10960DTthe ...10961:... the10962DTthe law10963NNlaw varies10964VVZvary from10965INfrom state10966NNstate to10967TOto state10968NNstate ,10969,, but10970CCbut why10971WRBwhy do10972VVPdo you10973PPyou look10974VVPlook at10975INat each10976DTeach state10977NNstate differently10978RBdifferently if10979INif the10980DTthe benefits10981NNSbenefit of10982INof the10983DTthe law10984NNlaw ...10985:... they10986PPthey 're10987VBPbe not10988RBnot going10989VVGgo to10990TOto change10991VVchange from10992INfrom state-to-state10993NNstate-to-state .10994SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]10995LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] So10996INso I10997PPI ...10998:... I10999PPI ...11000:... I11001PPI disagree11002VVPdisagree ,11003,, Mr11004NPMr .11005SENT. Chief11006NPChief Justice11007NPJustice .11008SENT. I11009PPI think11010VVPthink the11011DTthe variance11012NNvariance is11013VBZbe n't11014RBn't going11015VVGgo to11016TOto be11017VBbe as11018RBas wide11019JJwide as11020INas on11021INon the11022DTthe burden11023NNburden side11024NNside .11025SENT. But11026CCbut take11027VVtake credentialing11028NNcredentialing ,11029,, for11030INfor instance11031NNinstance .11032SENT. I11033PPI think11034VVPthink the11035DTthe Petitioners11036NNSpetitioner would11037MDwould have11038VHhave to11039TOto say11040VVsay that11041IN/thatthat if11042INif you11043PPyou had11044VHDhave a11045DTa state11046NNstate that11047WDTthat really11048RBreally did11049VVDdo focus11050NNfocus on11051INon competence11052NNcompetence and11053CCand the11054DTthe hospitals11055NNShospital really11056RBreally were11057VBDbe vetting11058VVGvet for11059INfor competence11060NNcompetence ...11061:... now11062RBnow ,11063,, they11064PPthey can11065MDcan dispute11066VVdispute whether11067INwhether that11068WDTthat happens11069VVZhappen here11070RBhere ...11071:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]11072LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] I11073PPI mean11074VVPmean ,11075,, that11076WDTthat was11077VBDbe n't11078RBn't this11079DTthis case11080NNcase ,11081,, right11082RBright ?11083SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]11084LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Well11085UHWell ,11086,, I11087PPI ...11088:... I11089PPI ...11090:... I11091PPI would11092MDwould say11093VVsay that11094DTthat competence11095NNcompetence is11096VBZbe ,11097,, I11098PPI think11099VVPthink ,11100,, a11101DTa pretty11102RBpretty key11103JJkey factor11104NNfactor in11105INin what11106WPwhat the11107DTthe hospitals11108NNShospital do11109VVPdo .11110SENT. And11111CCand if11112INif you11113PPyou look11114VVPlook at11115INat the11116DTthe joint11117JJjoint ...11118:...

[JUSTICE KAGAN]11119LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] On11120INon ...11121:... on11122INon this11123DTthis record11124NNrecord ?11125SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]11126LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] I11127PPI think11128VVPthink if11129INif you11130PPyou look11131VVPlook at11132INat the11133DTthe joint11134JJjoint commission11135NNcommission standards11136NNSstandard that11137WDTthat are11138VBPbe in11139INin the11140DTthe record11141NNrecord ,11142,, but11143CCbut my11144PP$my only11145JJonly point11146NNpoint to11147TOto the11148DTthe Chief11149NPChief Justice11150NPJustice was11151VBDbe that11152IN/thatthat however11153RBhowever we11154PPwe ...11155:... however11156RBhowever we11157PPwe think11158VVPthink about11159RBabout that11160RBthat ,11161,, they11162PPthey can11163MDcan vary11164VVvary depending11165VVGdepend on11166INon how11167WRBhow the11168DTthe credentialing11169NNcredentialing system11170NNsystem works11171VVZwork in11172INin a11173DTa particular11174JJparticular state11175NNstate .11176SENT. If11177INif I11178PPI can11179MDcan just11180RBjust make11181VVmake one11182CDone last11183JJlast point11184NNpoint on11185INon the11186DTthe merits11187NNSmerit .11188SENT. I11189PPI ...11190:... I11191PPI do11192VVPdo n't11193RBn't really11194RBreally think11195VVPthink it11196PPit 's11197VBZbe a11198DTa clear11199JJclear error11200NNerror standard11201NNstandard ,11202,, Justice11203NPJustice Alito11204NPAlito .11205SENT. It11206PPit 's11207VBZbe how11208WRBhow rigorously11209RBrigorously are11210VBPbe we11211PPwe going11212VVGgo to11213TOto review11214VVreview pretty11215RBpretty modest11216JJmodest efforts11217NNSeffort .11218SENT. Doe11219NPDoe 211220CD2 did11221VVDdo not11222RBnot apply11223VVapply to11224TOto a11225DTa hospital11226NNhospital where11227WRBwhere he11228PPhe used11229VVDuse to11230TOto have11231VHhave privileges11232NNSprivilege and11233CCand Doe11234NPDoe 311235CD3 currently11236RBcurrently has11237VHZhave privileges11238NNSprivilege .11239SENT. Doe11240NPDoe 511241CD5 got11242VVDget privileges11243NNSprivilege at11244INat Touro11245NPTouro Hospital11246NPHospital in11247INin New11248NPNew Orleans11249NPOrleans and11250CCand just11251RBjust needed11252VVNneed to11253TOto get11254VVget a11255DTa covering11256VVGcover doctor11257NNdoctor in11258INin Baton11259NPBaton Rouge11260NPRouge .11261SENT. And11262CCand Doe11263NPDoe 611264CD6 did11265VVDdo n't11266RBn't apply11267VVapply to11268TOto Touro11269NPTouro in11270INin New11271NPNew Orleans11272NPOrleans where11273WRBwhere Doe11274NPDoe 511275CD5 has11276VHZhave privileges11277NNSprivilege .11278SENT. So11279INso Doe11280NPDoe 511281CD5 did11282VVDdo the11283DTthe thing11284NNthing that11285IN/thatthat Petitioners11286NNSpetitioner are11287VBPbe here11288RBhere saying11289VVGsay can11290MDcan 't11291RB't be11292VBbe done11293VVNdo .11294SENT. And11295CCand it11296PPit 's11297VBZbe hard11298JJhard to11299TOto figure11300VVfigure out11301RPout what11302WPwhat the11303DTthe basis11304NNbasis for11305INfor distinction11306NNdistinction is11307VBZbe ,11308,, because11309INbecause the11310DTthe ...11311:... the11312DTthe cites11313VVZcite they11314PPthey give11315VVgive in11316INin their11317PP$their brief11318NNbrief ,11319,, and11320CCand it11321PPit 's11322VBZbe pretty11323RBpretty general11324JJgeneral and11325CCand pretty11326RBpretty thin11327JJthin ,11328,, to11329TOto be11330VBbe honest11331JJhonest ,11332,, but11333CCbut when11334WRBwhen you11335PPyou really11336RBreally trace11337VVtrace it11338PPit back11339RBback ,11340,, it11341PPit seems11342VVZseem to11343TOto be11344VBbe the11345DTthe hospital11346NNhospital bylaws11347NNSbylaw .11348SENT. And11349CCand Touro11350NPTouro ,11351,, as11352INas best11353JJSgood we11354PPwe can11355MDcan tell11356VVtell ,11357,, seems11358VVZseem to11359TOto have11360VHhave bylaws11361NNSbylaw that11362WDTthat look11363VVPlook like11364INlike the11365DTthe ones11366NNSone that11367WDTthat they11368PPthey say11369VVPsay would11370MDwould keep11371VVkeep people11372NNSpeople from11373INfrom getting11374VVGget privileges11375NNSprivilege .11376SENT.

[JUSTICE BREYER]11377LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] The11378DTthe answer11379NNanswer ...11380:... each11381DTeach of11382INof those11383DTthose has11384VHZhave an11385DTan answer11386NNanswer .11387SENT. I11388PPI mean11389VVPmean ,11390,, they11391PPthey say11392VVPsay ,11393,, look11394VVPlook ,11395,, the11396DTthe ones11397NNSone who11398WPwho did11399VVDdo n't11400RBn't get11401VVget the11402DTthe ...11403:... did11404VVDdo get11405VVget the11406DTthe privileges11407NNSprivilege practice11408NNpractice in11409INin OB-GYN11410NPOB-GYN practice11411NNpractice ,11412,, and11413CCand so11414RBso they11415PPthey had11416VHDhave women11417NNSwoman who11418WPwho ,11419,, in11420INin fact11421NNfact ,11422,, were11423VBDbe admitted11424VVNadmit to11425TOto hospitals11426NNShospital .11427SENT. And11428CCand the11429DTthe ones11430NNSone who11431WPwho do11432VVPdo n't11433RBn't are11434VBPbe the11435DTthe ones11436NNSone who11437WPwho do11438VVPdo medical11439JJmedical abortion11440NNabortion .11441SENT. You11442PPyou 've11443VHPhave heard11444VVNhear that11445RBthat .11446SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]11447LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] And11448CCand ...11449:... and11450CCand ...11451:...

[JUSTICE BREYER]11452LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] Okay11453NPOkay .11454SENT. And11455CCand on11456INon the11457DTthe other11458JJother one11459CDone ,11460,, as11461RBas far11462RBfar as11463RBas ,11464,, I11465PPI mean11466VVPmean ,11467,, Doe11468NPDoe 211469CD2 ,11470,, Doe11471NPDoe 211472CD2 says11473VVZsay I11474PPI ...11475:... I11476PPI ...11477:... I11478PPI tried11479VVDtry to11480TOto get11481VVget a11482DTa covering11483VVGcover doctor11484NNdoctor .11485SENT. He11486PPhe said11487VVDsay no11488RBno .11489SENT. The11490DTthe other11491JJother covering11492VVGcover doctors11493NNSdoctor ,11494,, there11495EXthere 's11496VBZbe no11497DTno point11498NNpoint because11499INbecause I11500PPI 'm11501VBPbe in11502INin Baton11503NPBaton Rouge11504NPRouge ...11505:... is11506VBZbe that11507IN/thatthat where11508WRBwhere he11509PPhe was11510VBDbe ,11511,, I11512PPI think11513VVPthink ,11514,, Doe11515NPDoe 211516CD2 ...11517:... and11518CCand he11519PPhe said11520VVDsay ,11521,, look11522VVPlook ,11523,, it11524PPit 's11525VBZbe a11526DTa tougher11527JJRtough climate11528NNclimate here11529RBhere .11530SENT. Really11531RBreally tough11532JJtough for11533INfor people11534NNSpeople who11535WPwho perform11536VVPperform abortions11537NNSabortion .11538SENT. Quite11539RBquite different11540JJdifferent from11541INfrom New11542NPNew Orleans11543NPOrleans .11544SENT. And11545CCand I11546PPI was11547VBDbe told11548VVNtell by11549INby one11550CDone that11551WDTthat do11552VVPdo n't11553RBn't do11554VVdo it11555PPit because11556INbecause you11557PPyou try11558VVPtry to11559TOto get11560VVget the11561DTthe covering11562VVGcover doctor11563NNdoctor and11564CCand that11565DTthat doctor11566NNdoctor would11567MDwould be11568VBbe subject11569JJsubject to11570TOto picketing11571NNpicketing ,11572,, dah-dah-dah11573NNdah-dah-dah .11574SENT. Okay11575JJokay .11576SENT. We11577PPwe have11578VHPhave all11579RBall seen11580VVNsee that11581DTthat .11582SENT. So11583RBso we11584PPwe have11585VHPhave gone11586VVNgo through11587INthrough it11588PPit .11589SENT. We11590PPwe 'll11591MDwill go11592VVgo through11593INthrough it11594PPit more11595RBRmore .11596SENT. What11597WPWhat do11598VVPdo you11599PPyou want11600VVPwant to11601TOto say11602VVsay ?11603SENT?

[MR. WALL J.B.]11604LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] So11605INso I11606PPI ...11607:... I11608PPI think11609VVPthink Doe11610NPDoe 211611CD2 's11612VBZbe in11613INin ...11614:... in11615INin Shreveport11616NPShreveport .11617SENT. But11618CCbut far11619RBfar more11620RBRmore importantly11621RBimportantly ,11622,, what11623WPwhat I11624PPI would11625MDwould say11626VVsay is11627VBZbe this11628DTthis :11629:: In11630INin a11631DTa pre-enforcement11632NNpre-enforcement setting11633NNsetting ,11634,, that11635DTthat sort11636NNsort of11637INof debate11638NNdebate back11639RBback and11640CCand forth11641RBforth is11642VBZbe n't11643RBn't enough11644JJenough to11645TOto carry11646VVcarry the11647DTthe burden11648NNburden .11649SENT. What11650WPWhat ought11651MDought to11652TOto have11653VHhave to11654TOto happen11655VVhappen is11656VBZbe these11657DTthese physicians11658NNSphysician ought11659MDought to11660TOto have11661VHhave to11662TOto put11663VVput their11664PP$their applications11665NNSapplication where11666WRBwhere their11667PP$their mouths11668NNSmouth are11669VBPbe and11670CCand then11671RBthen we11672PPwe 'll11673MDwill find11674VVfind out11675RPout ,11676,, once11677RBonce they11678PPthey have11679VHPhave applied11680VVNapply to11681TOto the11682DTthe full11683JJfull range11684NNrange of11685INof hospitals11686NNShospital ,11687,, whether11688INwhether they11689PPthey really11690RBreally can11691MDcan 't11692RB't ,11693,, whether11694INwhether Doe11695NPDoe 211696CD2 really11697RBreally can11698MDcan 't11699RB't at11700INat Christus11701NPChristus ,11702,, whether11703INwhether Doe11704NPDoe 511705CD5 really11706RBreally can11707MDcan 't11708RB't find11709VVfind a11710DTa covering11711VVGcover doctor11712NNdoctor in11713INin Baton11714NPBaton Rouge11715NPRouge ,11716,, whether11717INwhether Doe11718NPDoe 611719CD6 really11720RBreally can11721MDcan 't11722RB't at11723INat Touro11724NPTouro .11725SENT.

[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]11726LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Can11727MDcan that11728RBthat be11729VBbe done11730VVNdo ?11731SENT?

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]11732LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is11733VBZbe it11734PPit not11735RBnot ...11736:...

[MR. WALL J.B.]11737LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] But11738CCbut on11739INon this11740DTthis record11741NNrecord I11742PPI 'm11743VBPbe very11744RBvery skeptical11745JJskeptical that11746IN/thatthat they11747PPthey can11748MDcan 't11749RB't .11750SENT.

[JUSTICE GINSBURG]11751LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Is11752VBZbe it11753PPit not11754RBnot ...11755:... is11756VBZbe it11757PPit not11758RBnot a11759DTa reality11760NNreality ,11761,, is11762VBZbe it11763PPit not11764RBnot really11765RBreally the11766DTthe fact11767NNfact ,11768,, that11769WDTthat almost11770RBalmost all11771DTall hospitals11772NNShospital in11773INin the11774DTthe State11775NPState of11776INof Louisiana11777NPLouisiana do11778VVPdo have11779VHhave an11780DTan admission11781NNadmission ,11782,, you11783PPyou have11784VHPhave to11785TOto have11786VHhave an11787DTan admission11788NNadmission record11789NNrecord in11790INin order11791NNorder to11792TOto admit11793VVadmit patients11794NNSpatient ?11795SENT? There11796EXthere is11797VBZbe something11798NNsomething in11799INin the11800DTthe record11801NNrecord to11802TOto that11803DTthat effect11804NNeffect that11805IN/thatthat you11806PPyou ...11807:... you11808PPyou do11809VVPdo n't11810RBn't get11811VVget ...11812:... if11813INif you11814PPyou do11815VVPdo n't11816RBn't send11817VVsend patients11818NNSpatient to11819TOto the11820DTthe hospital11821NNhospital ,11822,, you11823PPyou do11824VVPdo n't11825RBn't get11826VVget admission11827NNadmission privileges11828NNSprivilege .11829SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11830LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You11831PPyou may11832MDmay answer11833VVanswer .11834SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]11835LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Justice11836NPJustice Ginsburg11837NPGinsburg ,11838,, I11839PPI think11840VVPthink that11841WDTthat 's11842VBZbe difficult11843JJdifficult to11844TOto square11845VVsquare with11846INwith the11847DTthe fact11848NNfact that11849IN/thatthat Doe11850NPDoe 511851CD5 ,11852,, who11853WPwho does11854VVZdo not11855RBnot have11856VHhave an11857DTan OB-GYN11858NPOB-GYN practice11859NNpractice ,11860,, got11861VVDget privileges11862NNSprivilege at11863INat Touro11864NPTouro .11865SENT. I11866PPI think11867VVPthink Petitioners11868NNSpetitioner acknowledge11869VVPacknowledge that11870IN/thatthat there11871EXthere are11872VBPbe not11873RBnot explicit11874JJexplicit patient11875NNpatient minimums11876NNSminimum .11877SENT. They11878PPthey call11879VVPcall them11880PPthem implicit11881JJimplicit .11882SENT. But11883CCbut the11884DTthe kinds11885NNSkind of11886INof requirements11887NNSrequirement that11888IN/thatthat they11889PPthey are11890VBPbe pointing11891VVGpoint to11892TOto are11893VBPbe the11894DTthe sorts11895NNSsort of11896INof things11897NNSthing that11898WDTthat look11899VVPlook like11900INlike they11901PPthey would11902MDwould have11903VHhave precluded11904VVNpreclude Doe11905NPDoe 511906CD5 and11907CCand did11908VVDdo n't11909RBn't .11910SENT. These11911DTthese ought11912MDought to11913TOto play11914VVplay themselves11915PPthemselves out11916RPout in11917INin a11918DTa post-enforcement11919NNpost-enforcement context11920NNcontext ,11921,, not11922RBnot as11923RBas here11924RBhere .11925SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11926LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank11927VVthank you11928PPyou ,11929,, General11930NPGeneral .11931SENT.

[MR. WALL J.B.]11932LOC[MR. WALL J.B.] Thank11933VVthank you11934PPyou .11935SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11936LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Five11937CDFive minutes11938NNSminute ,11939,, Ms11940NNMs .11941SENT. Rikelman11942NPRikelman .11943SENT.

[MS. RIKELMAN]11944LOC[MS. RIKELMAN] Your11945PP$your Honor11946NPHonor ,11947,, the11948DTthe lack11949NNlack of11950INof benefits11951NNSbenefit of11952INof these11953DTthese laws11954NNSlaw is11955VBZbe not11956RBnot state-dependent11957JJstate-dependent .11958SENT. The11959DTthe medical11960JJmedical consensus11961NNconsensus is11962VBZbe clear11963JJclear that11964IN/thatthat in11965INin no11966DTno state11967NNstate do11968VVPdo they11969PPthey serve11970VVserve health11971NNhealth and11972CCand safety11973NNsafety benefits11974NNSbenefit .11975SENT. And11976CCand ,11977,, in11978INin fact11979NNfact ,11980,, even11981RBeven the11982DTthe federal11983JJfederal government11984NNgovernment a11985DTa few11986JJfew months11987NNSmonth ago11988RBago removed11989VVDremove an11990DTan admitting11991VVGadmit privileges11992NNSprivilege requirement11993NNrequirement from11994INfrom its11995PP$its regulations11996NNSregulation of11997INof surgery11998NNsurgery centers11999NNScenter nationwide12000JJnationwide ,12001,, finding12002VVGfind that12003IN/thatthat the12004DTthe requirement12005NNrequirement is12006VBZbe medically12007RBmedically unnecessary12008JJunnecessary and12009CCand imposes12010VVZimpose burdens12011NNSburden .12012SENT. And12013CCand as12014INas Justice12015NPJustice Kagan12016NPKagan asked12017VVDask ,12018,, this12019DTthis Court12020NPCourt rejected12021VVDreject an12022DTan alleged12023JJalleged credentialing12024NNcredentialing benefit12025NNbenefit in12026INin Whole12027JJwhole Woman12028NPWoman 's12029POS's Health12030NPHealth .12031SENT. And12032CCand after12033INafter holding12034VVGhold a12035DTa trial12036NNtrial ,12037,, the12038DTthe district12039NNdistrict court12040NNcourt rejected12041VVDreject that12042IN/thatthat this12043DTthis law12044NNlaw would12045MDwould serve12046VVserve a12047DTa credentialing12048JJcredentialing benefit12049NNbenefit in12050INin Louisiana12051NPLouisiana .12052SENT. With12053INwith respect12054NNrespect to12055TOto burdens12056NNSburden ,12057,, the12058DTthe district12059NNdistrict court12060NNcourt found12061VVDfind that12062IN/thatthat this12063DTthis law12064NNlaw would12065MDwould be12066VBbe extremely12067RBextremely burdensome12068JJburdensome ,12069,, more12070RBRmore so12071RBso than12072INthan the12073DTthe Texas12074NPTexas law12075NNlaw in12076INin Whole12077JJwhole Woman12078NPWoman 's12079POS's Health12080NPHealth .12081SENT. And12082CCand its12083PP$its finding12084NNfinding that12085IN/thatthat these12086DTthese physicians12087NNSphysician would12088MDwould not12089RBnot be12090VBbe able12091JJable to12092TOto get12093VVget privileges12094NNSprivilege is12095VBZbe supported12096VVNsupport by12097INby at12098INat least12099JJSleast four12100CDfour aspects12101NNSaspect of12102INof the12103DTthe record12104NNrecord .12105SENT. The12106DTthe fact12107NNfact that12108IN/thatthat they12109PPthey tried12110VVDtry to12111TOto get12112VVget privileges12113NNSprivilege at12114INat 1512115CD@card@ hospitals12116NNShospital over12117INover one-and-a-half12118NNone-and-a-half years12119NNSyear under12120INunder the12121DTthe court12122NNcourt 's12123POS's supervision12124NNsupervision ;12125:; the12126DTthe fact12127NNfact that12128IN/thatthat the12129DTthe state12130NNstate 's12131POS's expert12132NNexpert conceded12133VVDconcede that12134IN/thatthat outpatient12135NNoutpatient physicians12136NNSphysician who12137WPwho do12138VVPdo n't12139RBn't have12140VHhave a12141DTa hospital-based12142JJhospital-based practice12143NNpractice are12144VBPbe unlikely12145JJunlikely to12146TOto get12147VVget privileges12148NNSprivilege ;12149:; the12150DTthe fact12151NNfact that12152IN/thatthat abortion12153NNabortion access12154NNaccess was12155VBDbe thrown12156VVNthrow into12157INinto chaos12158NNchaos when12159WRBwhen this12160DTthis law12161NNlaw actually12162RBactually took12163VVDtake effect12164NNeffect ;12165:; and12166CCand the12167DTthe hospital12168NNhospital bylaws12169NNSbylaw themselves12170PPthemselves ,12171,, which12172WDTwhich included12173VVDinclude a12174DTa variety12175NNvariety of12176INof criteria12177NNScriterion that12178IN/thatthat these12179DTthese physicians12180NNSphysician could12181MDcould never12182RBnever meet12183VVmeet ,12184,, including12185VVGinclude residency12186NNresidency requirements12187NNSrequirement .12188SENT. And12189CCand ,12190,, finally12191RBfinally ,12192,, I12193PPI 'd12194MDwould like12195VVlike to12196TOto point12197VVpoint out12198RPout that12199IN/thatthat this12200DTthis is12201VBZbe not12202RBnot ,12203,, in12204INin fact12205NNfact ,12206,, a12207DTa pre-enforcement12208NNpre-enforcement challenge12209NNchallenge .12210SENT. The12211DTthe state12212NNstate has12213VHZhave recognized12214VVNrecognize that12215IN/thatthat ,12216,, including12217VVGinclude in12218INin its12219PP$its state12220NNstate papers12221NNSpaper before12222INbefore this12223DTthis Court12224NPCourt .12225SENT. The12226DTthe district12227NNdistrict court12228NNcourt allowed12229VVDallow the12230DTthe law12231NNlaw to12232TOto take12233VVtake effect12234NNeffect but12235CCbut enjoined12236VVDenjoin its12237PP$its penalties12238NNSpenalty and12239CCand supervised12240VVDsupervise the12241DTthe physicians12242NNSphysician '12243POS' efforts12244NNSeffort to12245TOto get12246VVget privileges12247NNSprivilege over12248INover a12249DTa year12250NNyear and12251CCand a12252DTa half12253NNhalf .12254SENT. Again12255RBagain ,12256,, the12257DTthe state12258NNstate has12259VHZhave previously12260RBpreviously acknowledged12261VVNacknowledge that12262IN/thatthat this12263DTthis is12264VBZbe not12265RBnot a12266DTa pre-enforcement12267NNpre-enforcement challenge12268NNchallenge .12269SENT. If12270INif there12271EXthere are12272VBPbe no12273RBno further12274JJRfurther questions12275NNSquestion .12276SENT.

[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12277LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank12278VVthank you12279PPyou ,12280,, counsel12281NNcounsel .12282SENT. The12283DTthe case12284NNcase is12285VBZbe submitted12286VVNsubmit .12287SENT.