[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
We2PPwe
'll3MDwill
hear4VVhear
argument5NNargument
first6RBfirst
this7DTthis
term8NNterm
in9INin
Case10NPCase
Number11NPNumber
18-613512CD@card@
,13,,
Kahler14NPKahler
versus15CCversus
Kansas16NPKansas
.17SENT.
Ms18NNMs
.19SENT.
Schrup20NPSchrup
.21SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]22LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Mr23NPMr
.24SENT.
Chief25NPChief
Justice26NPJustice
,27,,
and28CCand
may29MDmay
it30PPit
please31VVplease
the32DTthe
Court33NPCourt
:34::
For35INfor
centuries36NNScentury
,37,,
criminal38JJcriminal
culpability39NNculpability
has40VHZhave
hinged41VVNhinge
on42INon
the43DTthe
capacity44NNcapacity
for45INfor
moral46JJmoral
judgment47NNjudgment
,48,,
to49TOto
discern50VVdiscern
and51CCand
to52TOto
choose53VVchoose
between54INbetween
right55NNright
and56CCand
wrong57JJwrong
.58SENT.
The59DTthe
insane60JJinsane
lack61NNlack
that62DTthat
capacity63NNcapacity
.64SENT.
This65DTthis
understanding66NNunderstanding
of67INof
insanity68NNinsanity
has69VHZhave
persisted70VVNpersist
since71INsince
the72DTthe
1500s73JJ1500s
and74CCand
remains75VVZremain
the76DTthe
rule77NNrule
in78INin
4879CD@card@
jurisdictions80NNSjurisdiction
today81NNtoday
.82SENT.
But83CCbut
Kansas84NPKansas
scrubs85VVZscrub
moral86JJmoral
capacity87NNcapacity
from88INfrom
its89PP$its
criminal90JJcriminal
law91NNlaw
and92CCand
runs93VVZrun
afoul94RBafoul
of95INof
the96DTthe
Fourteenth97NNfourteenth
and98CCand
the99DTthe
Eighth100JJeighth
Amendments101NNSamendment
.102SENT.
Kansas103NPKansas
rewrites104VVZrewrite
history105NNhistory
in106INin
two107CDtwo
ways108NNSway
,109,,
first110JJfirst
by111INby
elevating112VVGelevate
the113DTthe
wild114JJwild
beast115NNbeast
test116NNtest
,117,,
one118CDone
that119WDTthat
was120VBDbe
never121RBnever
used122VVNuse
in123INin
this124DTthis
country125NNcountry
and126CCand
only127RBonly
rarely128RBrarely
in129INin
England130NPEngland
,131,,
and132CCand
secondly133RBsecondly
by134INby
conflating135VVGconflate
common136JJcommon
law137NNlaw
intent138NNintent
,139,,
which140WDTwhich
required141VVDrequire
a142DTa
vicious143JJvicious
will144NNwill
and145CCand
was146VBDbe
bound147VVNbind
up148RPup
in149INin
moral150JJmoral
capacity151NNcapacity
,152,,
with153INwith
the154DTthe
...155:...
what156WPwhat
it157PPit
applies158VVZapply
today159NNtoday
,160,,
a161DTa
morality-free162JJmorality-free
modern163JJmodern
mens164NPmens
rea165NPrea
.166SENT.
As167INas
such168JJsuch
,169,,
Kansas170NPKansas
uproots171VVZuproot
the172DTthe
deeply173RBdeeply
rooted174VVNroot
by175INby
eliminating176VVGeliminate
any177DTany
mechanism178NNmechanism
to179TOto
assess180VVassess
whether181INwhether
a182DTa
defendant183NNdefendant
's184POS's
capacity185NNcapacity
for186INfor
moral187JJmoral
judgment188NNjudgment
was189VBDbe
intact190JJintact
or191CCor
was192VBDbe
irretrievably193RBirretrievably
compromised194VVNcompromise
by195INby
mental196JJmental
illness197NNillness
.198SENT.
Now199RBnow
,200,,
I201PPI
'd202MDwould
like203VVlike
to204TOto
turn205VVturn
briefly206RBbriefly
to207TOto
due208JJdue
process209NNprocess
first210RBfirst
and211CCand
explain212VVexplain
why213WRBwhy
the214DTthe
moral215JJmoral
capacity216NNcapacity
notion217NNnotion
is218VBZbe
and219CCand
always220RBalways
has221VHZhave
been222VBNbe
fundamental223JJfundamental
in224INin
our225PP$our
system226NNsystem
.227SENT.
The228DTthe
model229NNmodel
penal230JJpenal
code231NNcode
is232VBZbe
an233DTan
excellent234JJexcellent
example235NNexample
.236SENT.
As237INas
criminal238JJcriminal
law239NNlaw
evolved240VVDevolve
,241,,
the242DTthe
drafters243NNSdrafter
moved244VVDmove
to245TOto
more246JJRmore
precise247JJprecise
mental248JJmental
states249NNSstate
.250SENT.
When251WRBwhen
they252PPthey
did253VVDdo
that254IN/thatthat
,255,,
though256RBthough
,257,,
they258PPthey
retained259VVDretain
the260DTthe
compelling261JJcompelling
mechanism262NNmechanism
to263TOto
show264VVshow
insanity265NNinsanity
.266SENT.
We267PPwe
could268MDcould
do269VVdo
that270IN/thatthat
,271,,
the272DTthe
drafters273NNSdrafter
said274VVDsay
,275,,
because276INbecause
we277PPwe
kept278VVDkeep
this279DTthis
,280,,
this281DTthis
narrow282JJnarrow
remnant283NNremnant
of284INof
common285JJcommon
law286NNlaw
criminality287NNcriminality
.288SENT.
In289INin
Clark290NPClark
,291,,
too292RBtoo
,293,,
this294DTthis
Court295NPCourt
recognized296VVNrecognize
both297CCboth
the298DTthe
presumption299NNpresumption
of300INof
sanity301NNsanity
and302CCand
that303DTthat
evidence304NNevidence
of305INof
insanity306NNinsanity
trumps307VVZtrump
mens308NPmens
rea309NPrea
.310SENT.
This311DTthis
demonstrates312VVZdemonstrate
the313DTthe
continued314JJcontinued
need315NNneed
for316INfor
a317DTa
mechanism318NNmechanism
to319TOto
rebut320VVrebut
the321DTthe
presumption322NNpresumption
of323INof
sanity324NNsanity
,325,,
even326RBeven
when327WRBwhen
...328:...
even329RBeven
though330INthough
a331DTa
defendant332NNdefendant
harbors333VVZharbor
the334DTthe
requisite335JJrequisite
mental336JJmental
state337NNstate
.338SENT.
And339CCand
it340PPit
was341VBDbe
not342RBnot
only343RBonly
the344DTthe
mechanism345NNmechanism
that346WDTthat
was347VBDbe
important348JJimportant
in349INin
Clark350NPClark
;351:;
the352DTthe
substance353NNsubstance
was354VBDbe
too355RBtoo
.356SENT.
This357DTthis
Court358NPCourt
said359VVDsay
Arizona360NPArizona
could361MDcould
do362VVdo
that363IN/thatthat
,364,,
it365PPit
could366MDcould
eliminate367VVeliminate
the368DTthe
first369JJfirst
part370NNpart
of371INof
the372DTthe
M'Naghten373JJM'Naghten
test374NNtest
,375,,
because376INbecause
it377PPit
kept378VVDkeep
this379DTthis
,380,,
the381DTthe
right382NNright
and383CCand
wrong384JJwrong
principle385NNprinciple
that386WDTthat
subsumes387VVZsubsume
it388PPit
.389SENT.
So390RBso
I391PPI
'd392MDwould
like393VVlike
to394TOto
now395RBnow
turn396VVturn
back397RBback
to398TOto
history399NNhistory
because400INbecause
it401PPit
can402MDcan
be403VBbe
...404:...
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]405LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
Well406UHWell
,407,,
before408INbefore
you409PPyou
do410VVPdo
that411IN/thatthat
,412,,
you413PPyou
're414VBPbe
relying415VVGrely
on416INon
due417JJdue
process418NNprocess
.419SENT.
And420CCand
suppose421VVPsuppose
a422DTa
state423NNstate
decides424VVZdecide
it425PPit
wants426VVZwant
to427TOto
rethink428VVrethink
the429DTthe
insanity430NNinsanity
defense431NNdefense
.432SENT.
It433PPit
looks434VVZlook
to435TOto
other436JJother
nations437NNSnation
for438INfor
models439NNSmodel
.440SENT.
And441CCand
one442PPone
is443VBZbe
what444WPwhat
's445VBZbe
known446VVNknow
as447INas
a448DTa
...449:...
as450INas
a451DTa
judgment452NNjudgment
of453INof
guilty454JJguilty
but455CCbut
insane456JJinsane
;457:;
that458WDTthat
is459VBZbe
,460,,
two461CDtwo
determinants462NNSdeterminant
are463VBPbe
made464VVNmake
.465SENT.
Did466VVDdo
the467DTthe
defendant468NNdefendant
do469VVPdo
the470DTthe
act471NNact
with472INwith
which473WDTwhich
he474PPhe
is475VBZbe
charged476VVNcharge
?477SENT?
That478DTthat
's479VBZbe
the480DTthe
first481JJfirst
question482NNquestion
.483SENT.
And484CCand
the485DTthe
second486JJsecond
question487NNquestion
is488VBZbe
,489,,
what490WPwhat
is491VBZbe
the492DTthe
proper493JJproper
incapacitation494NNincapacitation
?495SENT?
So496RBso
guilty497JJguilty
but498CCbut
insane499JJinsane
would500MDwould
lead501VVlead
to502TOto
incapacitation503NNincapacitation
in504INin
a505DTa
mental506JJmental
institution507NNinstitution
.508SENT.
Guilty509JJguilty
and510CCand
not511RBnot
insane512JJinsane
would513MDwould
lead514VVlead
to515TOto
incarceration516NNincarceration
in517INin
prison518NNprison
.519SENT.
Would520MDwould
such521JJsuch
a522DTa
scheme523NNscheme
,524,,
if525INif
adopted526VVNadopt
by527INby
a528DTa
state529NNstate
of530INof
the531DTthe
United532NPUnited
States533NPStates
,534,,
violate535VVPviolate
due536JJdue
process537NNprocess
?538SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]539LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Yes540NPYes
,541,,
it542PPit
would543MDwould
,544,,
Justice545NPJustice
Ginsburg546NPGinsburg
.547SENT.
And548CCand
I549PPI
think550VVPthink
it551PPit
would552MDwould
because553INbecause
the554DTthe
conviction555NNconviction
itself556PPitself
carries557VVZcarry
collateral558NNcollateral
consequences559NNSconsequence
that560RBthat
...561:...
and562CCand
we563PPwe
have564VHPhave
never565RBnever
,566,,
as567INas
a568DTa
country569NNcountry
,570,,
treated571VVDtreat
the572DTthe
insane573NNinsane
as574INas
culpable575JJculpable
.576SENT.
And577CCand
that578DTthat
conviction579NNconviction
would580MDwould
...581:...
would582MDwould
impose583VVimpose
collateral584NNcollateral
consequences585NNSconsequence
on586INon
the587DTthe
insane588JJinsane
person589NNperson
who590WPwho
really591RBreally
should592MDshould
be593VBbe
excused594VVNexcuse
.595SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]596LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
But597CCbut
I598PPI
...599:...
I600PPI
would601MDwould
have602VHhave
thought603VVNthink
you604PPyou
would605MDwould
want606VVwant
collateral607NNcollateral
consequences608NNSconsequence
imposed609VVDimpose
,610,,
as611INas
I612PPI
understood613VVDunderstand
your614PP$your
submission615NNsubmission
,616,,
because617INbecause
the618DTthe
idea619NNidea
is620VBZbe
that621IN/thatthat
someone622NNsomeone
acquitted623VVNacquit
by624INby
reason625NNreason
of626INof
insanity627NNinsanity
would628MDwould
not629RBnot
go630VVgo
free631JJfree
but632CCbut
would633MDwould
instead634RBinstead
be635VBbe
committed636VVNcommit
to637TOto
mental638JJmental
care639NNcare
.640SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]641LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Yes642NPYes
,643,,
that644WDTthat
's645VBZbe
right646JJright
,647,,
Your648PP$your
Honor649NPHonor
.650SENT.
But651CCbut
...652:...
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]653LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Well654UHWell
,655,,
why656WRBwhy
would657MDwould
n't658RBn't
that659RBthat
...660:...
if661INif
that662WDTthat
's663VBZbe
the664DTthe
consequence665NNconsequence
of666INof
the667DTthe
system668NNsystem
Justice669NPJustice
Ginsburg670NPGinsburg
was671VBDbe
talking672VVGtalk
about673RBabout
,674,,
guilty675JJguilty
but676CCbut
insane677JJinsane
,678,,
I679PPI
do680VVPdo
n't681RBn't
understand682VVunderstand
why683WRBwhy
that684DTthat
's685VBZbe
not686RBnot
exactly687RBexactly
the688DTthe
sort689NNsort
of690INof
course691NNcourse
you692PPyou
're693VBPbe
looking694VVGlook
for695INfor
.696SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]697LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well698UHwell
,699,,
I700PPI
want701VVPwant
to702TOto
rewind703VVrewind
a704DTa
little705JJlittle
bit706NNbit
,707,,
Your708PP$your
Honor709NPHonor
,710,,
because711INbecause
really712RBreally
what713WPwhat
we714PPwe
're715VBPbe
talking716VVGtalk
about717RBabout
is718VBZbe
the719DTthe
mechanism720NNmechanism
to721TOto
be722VBbe
able723JJable
to724TOto
show725VVshow
that726IN/thatthat
you727PPyou
lack728VVPlack
moral729JJmoral
capacity730NNcapacity
.731SENT.
The732DTthe
back733JJback
end734NNend
of735INof
it736PPit
,737,,
as738RBas
long739RBlong
as740INas
you741PPyou
have742VHPhave
the743DTthe
mechanism744NNmechanism
to745TOto
show746VVshow
that747IN/thatthat
you748PPyou
lack749VVPlack
moral750JJmoral
capacity751NNcapacity
,752,,
that753WDTthat
you754PPyou
can755MDcan
choose756VVchoose
right757RBright
from758INfrom
wrong759JJwrong
or760CCor
can761MDcan
't762RB't
do763VVPdo
that764IN/thatthat
,765,,
then766RBthen
the767DTthe
ultimate768JJultimate
result769NNresult
is770VBZbe
not771RBnot
all772PDTall
that773DTthat
determinative774NNdeterminative
.775SENT.
If776INif
guilty777JJguilty
but778CCbut
insane779JJinsane
means780NNSmean
that781WDTthat
you782PPyou
...783:...
if784INif
...785:...
if786INif
you787PPyou
end788VVPend
up789RPup
in790INin
exactly791RBexactly
the792DTthe
same793JJsame
place794NNplace
,795,,
then796RBthen
I797PPI
suppose798VVPsuppose
the799DTthe
label800NNlabel
does801VVZdo
n't802RBn't
matter803VVmatter
,804,,
but805CCbut
what806WPwhat
I807PPI
'm808VBPbe
nervous809JJnervous
about810RBabout
,811,,
actually812RBactually
,813,,
is814VBZbe
if815INif
you816PPyou
have817VHPhave
a818DTa
guilty819JJguilty
but820CCbut
insane821JJinsane
,822,,
some823DTsome
of824INof
those825DTthose
statutes826NNSstatute
in827INin
some828DTsome
jurisdictions829NNSjurisdiction
are830VBPbe
you831PPyou
're832VBPbe
guilty833JJguilty
,834,,
you835PPyou
go836VVPgo
and837CCand
get838VVPget
treatment839NNtreatment
,840,,
and841CCand
then842RBthen
once843RBonce
you844PPyou
are845VBPbe
...846:...
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]847LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
My848NPMy
...849:...
[MS. SCHRUP]850LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...851:...
well852RBwell
...853:...
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]854LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
My855PP$my
hypothetical856JJhypothetical
is857VBZbe
the858DTthe
question859NNquestion
of860INof
where861WRBwhere
the862DTthe
person863NNperson
is864VBZbe
incarcerated865VVNincarcerate
is866VBZbe
determined867VVNdetermine
second868JJsecond
.869SENT.
It870PPit
has871VHZhave
no872DTno
collateral873NNcollateral
consequences874NNSconsequence
.875SENT.
You876PPyou
're877VBPbe
found878VVNfind
to879TOto
have880VHhave
committed881VVNcommit
the882DTthe
conduct883NNconduct
charged884VVDcharge
,885,,
but886CCbut
because887INbecause
you888PPyou
are889VBPbe
insane890JJinsane
,891,,
you892PPyou
go893VVPgo
to894TOto
a895DTa
mental896JJmental
institution897NNinstitution
.898SENT.
So899RBso
it900PPit
would901MDwould
take902VVtake
out903RPout
any904DTany
collateral905NNcollateral
consequences906NNSconsequence
that907WDTthat
would908MDwould
label909VVlabel
you910PPyou
on911INon
the912DTthe
criminal913JJcriminal
side914NNside
.915SENT.
It916PPit
's917VBZbe
just918RBjust
you919PPyou
have920VHPhave
committed921VVNcommit
the922DTthe
deed923NNdeed
that924IN/thatthat
you925PPyou
were926VBDbe
charged927VVNcharge
with928INwith
,929,,
but930CCbut
you931PPyou
were932VBDbe
insane933JJinsane
;934:;
therefore935RBtherefore
,936,,
you937PPyou
go938VVPgo
to939TOto
mental940JJmental
institution941NNinstitution
.942SENT.
That943RBthat
,944,,
you945PPyou
think946VVPthink
,947,,
would948MDwould
violate949VVviolate
due950JJdue
process951NNprocess
?952SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]953LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well954UHWell
,955,,
Your956PP$your
Honor957NPHonor
,958,,
I959PPI
...960:...
you961PPyou
know962VVPknow
,963,,
to964TOto
the965DTthe
extent966NNextent
...967:...
so968RBso
I969PPI
guess970VVPguess
I971PPI
would972MDwould
go973VVgo
back974RBback
to975TOto
history976NNhistory
on977INon
this978DTthis
.979SENT.
And980CCand
what981WPwhat
we982PPwe
know983VVPknow
is984VBZbe
that985IN/thatthat
these986DTthese
people987NNSpeople
were988VBDbe
not989RBnot
even990RBeven
subject991JJsubject
to992TOto
prosecution993NNprosecution
at994INat
all995DTall
.996SENT.
Hawkins997NPHawkins
,998,,
in999INin
his1000PP$his
Plea1001NNplea
of1002INof
the1003DTthe
Crown1004NPCrown
,1005,,
said1006VVDsay
so1007RBso
.1008SENT.
But1009CCbut
as1010RBas
long1011RBlong
as1012RBas
...1013:...
the1014DTthe
mechanism1015NNmechanism
...1016:...
as1017RBas
long1018RBlong
as1019INas
the1020DTthe
mechanism1021NNmechanism
for1022INfor
the1023DTthe
defendant1024NNdefendant
to1025TOto
present1026VVpresent
his1027PP$his
lack1028NNlack
of1029INof
moral1030JJmoral
capability1031NNcapability
at1032INat
the1033DTthe
back1034JJback
end1035NNend
,1036,,
if1037INif
the1038DTthe
regime1039NNregime
protects1040VVZprotect
him1041PPhim
in1042INin
that1043DTthat
way1044NNway
.1045SENT.
But1046CCbut
I1047PPI
also1048RBalso
disagree1049VVPdisagree
,1050,,
Your1051PP$your
Honor1052NPHonor
,1053,,
that1054IN/thatthat
the1055DTthe
conviction1056NNconviction
does1057VVZdo
n't1058RBn't
stigmatize1059VVstigmatize
or1060CCor
show1061VVshow
that1062IN/thatthat
he1063PPhe
is1064VBZbe
guilty1065JJguilty
.1066SENT.
I1067PPI
mean1068VVPmean
,1069,,
if1070INif
you1071PPyou
're1072VBPbe
found1073VVNfind
guilty1074JJguilty
,1075,,
you1076PPyou
have1077VHPhave
that1078DTthat
conviction1079NNconviction
.1080SENT.
I1081PPI
do1082VVPdo
think1083VVthink
that1084IN/thatthat
the1085DTthe
insane1086JJinsane
need1087NNneed
mental1088JJmental
treatment1089NNtreatment
.1090SENT.
They1091PPthey
need1092VVPneed
commitment1093NNcommitment
.1094SENT.
So1095RBso
I1096PPI
guess1097VVPguess
I1098PPI
'm1099VBPbe
not1100RBnot
...1101:...
unless1102INunless
I1103PPI
'm1104VBPbe
missing1105VVGmiss
your1106PP$your
point1107NNpoint
,1108,,
I1109PPI
believe1110VVPbelieve
it1111PPit
's1112VBZbe
more1113JJRmore
about1114INabout
the1115DTthe
mechanism1116NNmechanism
and1117CCand
not1118RBnot
allowing1119VVGallow
a1120DTa
conviction1121NNconviction
of1122INof
an1123DTan
insane1124JJinsane
person1125NNperson
.1126SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]1127LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
You1128PPyou
're1129VBPbe
talking1130VVGtalk
about1131INabout
lack1132NNlack
of1133INof
moral1134JJmoral
capacity1135NNcapacity
.1136SENT.
Would1137MDwould
it1138PPit
be1139VBbe
unconstitutional1140JJunconstitutional
if1141INif
a1142DTa
state1143NNstate
said1144VVDsay
that1145IN/thatthat
a1146DTa
person1147NNperson
is1148VBZbe
sane1149JJsane
if1150INif
the1151DTthe
person1152NNperson
knows1153VVZknow
that1154IN/thatthat
the1155DTthe
act1156NNact
is1157VBZbe
illegal1158JJillegal
,1159,,
even1160RBeven
if1161INif
the1162DTthe
person1163NNperson
thinks1164VVZthink
that1165IN/thatthat
the1166DTthe
act1167NNact
is1168VBZbe
moral1169JJmoral
?1170SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]1171LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
So1172INso
the1173DTthe
right-and-wrong1174NNright-and-wrong
principle1175NNprinciple
,1176,,
Your1177PP$your
Honor1178NPHonor
,1179,,
includes1180VVZinclude
both1181DTboth
knowledge1182NNknowledge
of1183INof
legal1184JJlegal
wrong1185JJwrong
and1186CCand
knowledge1187NNknowledge
of1188INof
moral1189JJmoral
wrong1190NNwrong
.1191SENT.
There1192EXthere
's1193VBZbe
very1194RBvery
little1195JJlittle
light1196NNlight
between1197INbetween
the1198DTthe
two1199CDtwo
.1200SENT.
61201CD6
So1202RBso
...1203:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]1204LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well1205UHwell
,1206,,
I1207PPI
do1208VVPdo
n't1209RBn't
know1210VVknow
that1211IN/thatthat
that1212DTthat
's1213VBZbe
the1214DTthe
case1215NNcase
.1216SENT.
Someone1217NNsomeone
can1218MDcan
know1219VVknow
that1220DTthat
something1221NNsomething
is1222VBZbe
illegal1223JJillegal
but1224CCbut
feel1225VVPfeel
very1226RBvery
strongly1227RBstrongly
that1228IN/thatthat
it1229PPit
is1230VBZbe
moral1231JJmoral
.1232SENT.
So1233RBso
what1234WPwhat
...1235:...
what1236WPwhat
's1237VBZbe
the1238DTthe
answer1239NNanswer
to1240TOto
my1241PP$my
question1242NNquestion
?1243SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]1244LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Justice1245NPJustice
Alito1246NPAlito
,1247,,
it1248PPit
's1249VBZbe
not1250RBnot
about1251INabout
a1252DTa
belief1253NNbelief
.1254SENT.
It1255PPit
's1256VBZbe
about1257RBabout
a1258DTa
capacity1259NNcapacity
fueled1260VVNfuel
by1261INby
mental1262JJmental
illness1263NNillness
.1264SENT.
So1265RBso
if1266INif
a1267DTa
person1268NNperson
justifies1269VVZjustify
or1270CCor
believes1271VVZbelieve
that1272IN/thatthat
they1273PPthey
are1274VBPbe
justified1275VVNjustify
in1276INin
acting1277VVGact
in1278INin
that1279DTthat
way1280NNway
,1281,,
they1282PPthey
are1283VBPbe
not1284RBnot
covered1285VVNcover
by1286INby
this1287DTthis
baseline1288JJbaseline
standard1289NNstandard
.1290SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]1291LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
If1292INif
the1293DTthe
...1294:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]1295LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
What1296WPWhat
's1297VBZbe
the1298DTthe
answer1299NNanswer
...1300:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]1301LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...1302:...
person1303NNperson
...1304:...
I1305PPI
...1306:...
if1307INif
the1308DTthe
person1309NNperson
has1310VHZhave
the1311DTthe
capacity1312NNcapacity
to1313TOto
know1314VVknow
that1315IN/thatthat
what1316WPwhat
he1317PPhe
did1318VVDdo
was1319VBDbe
a1320DTa
violation1321NNviolation
of1322INof
the1323DTthe
criminal1324JJcriminal
law1325NNlaw
,1326,,
and1327CCand
that1328DTthat
's1329VBZbe
the1330DTthe
defense1331NNdefense
that1332WDTthat
is1333VBZbe
provided1334VVNprovide
by1335INby
a1336DTa
state1337NNstate
,1338,,
is1339VBZbe
that1340IN/thatthat
unconstitutional1341JJunconstitutional
?1342SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]1343LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
No1344NPNo
.1345SENT.
So1346RBso
long1347RBlong
as1348INas
it1349PPit
encompasses1350VVZencompass
...1351:...
it1352PPit
can1353MDcan
't1354RB't
just1355RBjust
be1356VBbe
that1357IN/thatthat
you1358PPyou
are1359VBPbe
...1360:...
that1361WDTthat
you1362PPyou
...1363:...
you1364PPyou
forget1365VVPforget
what1366WPwhat
criminal1367JJcriminal
law1368NNlaw
is1369VBZbe
.1370SENT.
What1371WPWhat
Justice1372NPJustice
Breyer1373NPBreyer
said1374VVDsay
in1375INin
the1376DTthe
dissent1377NNdissent
from1378INfrom
the1379DTthe
denial1380NNdenial
of1381INof
cert1382NNcert
in1383INin
Delling1384NPDelling
was1385VBDbe
that1386IN/thatthat
what1387WPwhat
legally1388RBlegally
wrong1389JJwrong
means1390NNSmean
...1391:...
and1392CCand
it1393PPit
still1394RBstill
falls1395VVZfall
within1396INwithin
the1397DTthe
right-and-wrong1398NNright-and-wrong
principle1399NNprinciple
,1400,,
what1401WPwhat
legally1402RBlegally
wrong1403JJwrong
means1404NNmeans
is1405VBZbe
that1406IN/thatthat
you1407PPyou
are1408VBPbe
unable1409JJunable
to1410TOto
comprehend1411VVcomprehend
the1412DTthe
actual1413JJactual
nature1414NNnature
of1415INof
...1416:...
of1417INof
the1418DTthe
act1419NNact
such1420JJsuch
that1421IN/thatthat
you1422PPyou
believe1423VVPbelieve
,1424,,
for1425INfor
example1426NNexample
,1427,,
that1428WDTthat
you1429PPyou
're1430VBPbe
falling1431VVGfall
into1432INinto
a1433DTa
defense1434NNdefense
.1435SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]1436LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well1437UHwell
,1438,,
there1439EXthere
are1440VBPbe
many1441JJmany
,1442,,
many1443JJmany
people1444NNSpeople
who1445WPwho
believe1446VVPbelieve
,1447,,
maybe1448RBmaybe
not1449RBnot
so1450RBso
much1451JJmuch
for1452INfor
murder1453NNmurder
,1454,,
but1455CCbut
certainly1456RBcertainly
for1457INfor
a1458DTa
lot1459NNlot
of1460INof
other1461JJother
offenses1462NNSoffense
,1463,,
that1464DTthat
things1465NNSthing
that1466WDTthat
are1467VBPbe
violations1468NNSviolation
of1469INof
the1470DTthe
law1471NNlaw
are1472VBPbe
nevertheless1473RBnevertheless
moral1474JJmoral
.1475SENT.
And1476CCand
so1477RBso
if1478INif
that1479DTthat
were1480VBDbe
the1481DTthe
general1482JJgeneral
rule1483NNrule
in1484INin
criminal1485JJcriminal
law1486NNlaw
,1487,,
that1488WDTthat
you1489PPyou
cannot1490MDcan
be1491VBbe
convicted1492VVNconvict
if1493INif
you1494PPyou
...1495:...
if1496INif
you1497PPyou
know1498VVPknow
that1499DTthat
...1500:...
if1501INif
you1502PPyou
believe1503VVPbelieve
that1504IN/thatthat
what1505WPwhat
you1506PPyou
've1507VHPhave
done1508VVNdo
is1509VBZbe
moral1510JJmoral
,1511,,
that1512WDTthat
would1513MDwould
revolutionize1514VVrevolutionize
criminal1515JJcriminal
law1516NNlaw
.1517SENT.
And1518CCand
the1519DTthe
only1520JJonly
element1521NNelement
that1522IN/thatthat
you1523PPyou
are1524VBPbe
adding1525VVGadd
to1526TOto
that1527DTthat
is1528VBZbe
that1529IN/thatthat
this1530DTthis
is1531VBZbe
caused1532VVNcause
by1533INby
a1534DTa
mental1535JJmental
disorder1536NNdisorder
.1537SENT.
So1538RBso
it1539PPit
becomes1540VVZbecome
important1541JJimportant
to1542TOto
understand1543VVunderstand
what1544WPwhat
you1545PPyou
mean1546VVPmean
by1547INby
mental1548JJmental
disorder1549NNdisorder
.1550SENT.
And1551CCand
what1552WPwhat
do1553VVPdo
you1554PPyou
mean1555VVmean
by1556INby
a1557DTa
mental1558JJmental
disorder1559NNdisorder
?1560SENT?
Do1561VVdo
you1562PPyou
mean1563VVmean
everything1564NNeverything
that1565WDTthat
is1566VBZbe
listed1567VVNlist
as1568INas
a1569DTa
mental1570JJmental
disorder1571NNdisorder
in1572INin
the1573DTthe
latest1574JJSlate
edition1575NNedition
of1576INof
the1577DTthe
DSM1578NPDSM
?1579SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]1580LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Your1581PP$your
Honor1582NPHonor
,1583,,
it1584PPit
's1585VBZbe
not1586RBnot
about1587INabout
the1588DTthe
diagnosis1589NNdiagnosis
.1590SENT.
And1591CCand
you1592PPyou
asked1593VVDask
what1594WPwhat
mental1595JJmental
capacity1596NNcapacity
means1597NNSmean
and1598CCand
...1599:...
and1600CCand
what1601WPwhat
mental1602JJmental
illness1603NNillness
means1604NNSmean
.1605SENT.
I1606PPI
can1607MDcan
put1608VVput
it1609PPit
this1610DTthis
way1611NNway
:1612::
It1613PPit
is1614VBZbe
as1615RBas
if1616INif
a1617DTa
person1618NNperson
...1619:...
it1620PPit
's1621VBZbe
...1622:...
again1623RBagain
,1624,,
it1625PPit
's1626VBZbe
not1627RBnot
about1628INabout
a1629DTa
belief1630NNbelief
.1631SENT.
It1632PPit
's1633VBZbe
not1634RBnot
about1635RBabout
justifying1636VVGjustify
.1637SENT.
It1638PPit
's1639VBZbe
about1640RBabout
you1641PPyou
actually1642RBactually
can1643MDcan
't1644RB't
tap1645VVtap
in1646INin
to1647TOto
the1648DTthe
part1649NNpart
of1650INof
your1651PP$your
brain1652NNbrain
that1653WDTthat
allows1654VVZallow
you1655PPyou
to1656TOto
choose1657VVchoose
right1658JJright
versus1659CCversus
wrong1660JJwrong
.1661SENT.
And1662CCand
juries1663NNSjury
have1664VHPhave
,1665,,
in1666INin
481667CD@card@
jurisdictions1668NNSjurisdiction
,1669,,
been1670VBNbe
able1671JJable
to1672TOto
make1673VVmake
this1674DTthis
distinction1675NNdistinction
regardless1676RBregardless
of1677INof
what1678WPwhat
the1679DTthe
diagnosis1680NNdiagnosis
is1681VBZbe
.1682SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]1683LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well1684UHWell
,1685,,
what1686WPwhat
is1687VBZbe
the1688DTthe
answer1689NNanswer
to1690TOto
my1691PP$my
question1692NNquestion
?1693SENT?
Is1694VBZbe
it1695PPit
sufficient1696JJsufficient
if1697INif
the1698DTthe
person1699NNperson
has1700VHZhave
something1701NNsomething
that1702WDTthat
is1703VBZbe
considered1704VVNconsider
to1705TOto
be1706VBbe
a1707DTa
mental1708JJmental
disorder1709NNdisorder
in1710INin
the1711DTthe
DSM1712NPDSM
?1713SENT?
And1714CCand
it1715PPit
has1716VHZhave
been1717VBNbe
calculated1718VVNcalculate
that1719IN/thatthat
one1720CDone
in1721INin
five1722CDfive
people1723NNSpeople
in1724INin
the1725DTthe
United1726NPUnited
States1727NPSStates
has1728VHZhave
some1729DTsome
mental1730JJmental
disorder1731NNdisorder
.1732SENT.
So1733RBso
we1734PPwe
're1735VBPbe
talking1736VVGtalk
about1737RBabout
601738CD@card@
plus1739NNplus
...1740:...
601741CD@card@
million1742CDmillion
plus1743INplus
people1744NNSpeople
.1745SENT.
All1746DTall
of1747INof
them1748PPthem
could1749MDcould
go1750VVgo
to1751TOto
the1752DTthe
jury1753NNjury
on1754INon
the1755DTthe
question1756NNquestion
of1757INof
whether1758INwhether
they1759PPthey
had1760VHDhave
the1761DTthe
capacity1762NNcapacity
to1763TOto
know1764VVknow
that1765IN/thatthat
what1766WPwhat
they1767PPthey
were1768VBDbe
doing1769VVGdo
when1770WRBwhen
they1771PPthey
committed1772VVDcommit
the1773DTthe
crime1774NNcrime
was1775VBDbe
morally1776RBmorally
wrong1777JJwrong
.1778SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]1779LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Justice1780NPJustice
Alito1781NPAlito
,1782,,
they1783PPthey
should1784MDshould
be1785VBbe
given1786VVNgive
the1787DTthe
opportunity1788NNopportunity
to1789TOto
at1790INat
least1791JJSleast
try1792VVtry
.1793SENT.
This1794DTthis
should1795MDshould
n't1796RBn't
be1797VBbe
legislatively1798RBlegislatively
cut1799VVNcut
off1800RPoff
at1801INat
the1802DTthe
knees1803NNSknee
.1804SENT.
There1805EXthere
are1806VBPbe
many1807JJmany
mechanisms1808NNSmechanism
in1809INin
place1810NNplace
in1811INin
our1812PP$our
trial1813NNtrial
system1814NNsystem
,1815,,
many1816JJmany
hoops1817NNShoop
that1818IN/thatthat
they1819PPthey
would1820MDwould
have1821VHhave
to1822TOto
jump1823VVjump
through1824RPthrough
.1825SENT.
But1826CCbut
if1827INif
they1828PPthey
have1829VHPhave
a1830DTa
mental1831JJmental
disease1832NNdisease
that1833WDTthat
's1834VBZbe
diagnosed1835VVNdiagnose
,1836,,
then1837RBthen
they1838PPthey
should1839MDshould
at1840INat
least1841JJSleast
be1842VBbe
able1843JJable
to1844TOto
get1845VVget
in1846INin
the1847DTthe
door1848NNdoor
and1849CCand
get1850VVget
evaluated1851VVNevaluate
and1852CCand
then1853RBthen
proceed1854VVproceed
...1855:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]1856LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms1857NNMs
...1858:...
.1859SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]1860LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...1861:...
and1862CCand
...1863:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]1864LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms1865NNMs
.1866SENT.
Schrup1867NPSchrup
...1868:...
[MS. SCHRUP]1869LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Yes1870NPYes
?1871SENT?
[JUSTICE KAGAN]1872LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Can1873MDcan
I1874PPI
ask1875VVask
you1876PPyou
about1877INabout
a1878DTa
premise1879NNpremise
of1880INof
your1881PP$your
argument1882NNargument
?1883SENT?
And1884CCand
it1885PPit
's1886VBZbe
that1887IN/thatthat
if1888INif
we1889PPwe
look1890VVPlook
to1891TOto
history1892NNhistory
,1893,,
and1894CCand
if1895INif
history1896NNhistory
supports1897VVZsupport
what1898WPwhat
you1899PPyou
say1900VVPsay
,1901,,
then1902RBthen
we1903PPwe
're1904VBPbe
obligated1905VVNobligate
to1906TOto
go1907VVgo
with1908INwith
it1909PPit
now1910RBnow
.1911SENT.
And1912CCand
I1913PPI
...1914:...
I1915PPI
just1916RBjust
want1917VVPwant
to1918TOto
ask1919VVask
how1920WRBhow
and1921CCand
why1922WRBwhy
that1923DTthat
's1924VBZbe
so1925RBso
,1926,,
because1927INbecause
there1928EXthere
are1929VBPbe
many1930JJmany
ways1931NNSway
in1932INin
which1933WDTwhich
understandings1934NNSunderstanding
of1935INof
criminal1936JJcriminal
culpability1937NNculpability
change1938NNchange
over1939INover
the1940DTthe
years1941NNSyear
.1942SENT.
And1943CCand
...1944:...
and1945CCand
...1946:...
and1947CCand
how1948WRBhow
do1949VVPdo
we1950PPwe
figure1951VVPfigure
out1952INout
which1953WDTwhich
are1954VBPbe
the1955DTthe
ones1956NNSone
that1957IN/thatthat
the1958DTthe
Constitution1959NPConstitution
requires1960VVZrequire
stay1961VVstay
the1962DTthe
same1963JJsame
now1964RBnow
as1965INas
they1966PPthey
were1967VBDbe
back1968RBback
in1969INin
the1970DTthe
common1971JJcommon
law1972NNlaw
or1973CCor
back1974RBback
at1975INat
the1976DTthe
founding1977NNfounding
or1978CCor
back1979RBback
in1980INin
18681981CD@card@
,1982,,
depending1983VVGdepend
on1984INon
which1985WDTwhich
date1986NNdate
you1987PPyou
're1988VBPbe
using1989VVGuse
,1990,,
and1991CCand
...1992:...
and1993CCand
...1994:...
and1995CCand
which1996WDTwhich
ones1997NNSone
can1998MDcan
change1999VVchange
?2000SENT?
What2001WPWhat
...2002:...
what2003WPwhat
...2004:...
what2005WPwhat
do2006VVPdo
we2007PPwe
do2008VVPdo
?2009SENT?
We2010PPwe
're2011VBPbe
not2012RBnot
stuck2013VVNstick
with2014INwith
all2015DTall
of2016INof
history2017NNhistory
,2018,,
are2019VBPbe
we2020PPwe
?2021SENT?
So2022RBso
if2023INif
we're2024NNwe're
...2025:...
if2026INif
we2027PPwe
're2028VBPbe
not2029RBnot
stuck2030VVNstick
with2031INwith
all2032DTall
of2033INof
history2034NNhistory
,2035,,
why2036WRBwhy
are2037VBPbe
we2038PPwe
obligated2039VVNobligate
to2040TOto
keep2041VVkeep
this2042DTthis
part2043NNpart
of2044INof
it2045PPit
?2046SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]2047LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well2048UHWell
,2049,,
Your2050PP$your
Honor2051NPHonor
,2052,,
because2053INbecause
that2054WDTthat
's2055VBZbe
the2056DTthe
test2057NNtest
that2058IN/thatthat
this2059DTthis
Court2060NPCourt
has2061VHZhave
set2062VVNset
out2063RPout
for2064INfor
due2065JJdue
process2066NNprocess
.2067SENT.
And2068CCand
you2069PPyou
could2070MDcould
go2071VVgo
back2072RBback
as2073RBas
far2074RBfar
as2075INas
you2076PPyou
want2077VVPwant
,2078,,
but2079CCbut
by2080INby
the2081DTthe
1500s2082JJ1500s
,2083,,
we2084PPwe
know2085VVPknow
that2086IN/thatthat
this2087DTthis
was2088VBDbe
an2089DTan
intact2090JJintact
principle2091NNprinciple
.2092SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]2093LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Well2094UHWell
,2095,,
the2096DTthe
...2097:...
I2098PPI
mean2099VVPmean
,2100,,
the2101DTthe
test2102NNtest
that2103WDTthat
was2104VBDbe
set2105VVNset
out2106RPout
by2107INby
this2108DTthis
Court2109NPCourt
for2110INfor
due2111JJdue
process2112NNprocess
,2113,,
I2114PPI
mean2115VVPmean
,2116,,
I2117PPI
could2118MDcould
give2119VVgive
you2120PPyou
some2121DTsome
ways2122NNSway
in2123INin
which2124WDTwhich
the2125DTthe
criminal2126JJcriminal
law2127NNlaw
of2128INof
olden2129JJolden
times2130NNStime
seems2131VVZseem
remarkably2132RBremarkably
archaic2133JJarchaic
to2134TOto
us2135PPus
now2136RBnow
,2137,,
marital2138JJmarital
rape2139NNrape
exception2140NNexception
,2141,,
maybe2142RBmaybe
sodomy2143NNsodomy
laws2144NNSlaw
.2145SENT.
I2146PPI
'm2147VBPbe
sure2148JJsure
that2149IN/thatthat
there2150EXthere
are2151VBPbe
others2152NNSother
that2153IN/thatthat
I2154PPI
could2155MDcould
list2156VVlist
.2157SENT.
You2158PPyou
know2159VVPknow
,2160,,
what2161WPwhat
does2162VVZdo
due2163JJdue
process2164NNprocess
require2165VVrequire
we2166PPwe
hang2167VVhang
onto2168INonto
notwithstanding2169RBnotwithstanding
changing2170VVGchange
times2171NNStime
?2172SENT?
And2173CCand
...2174:...
and2175CCand
I2176PPI
guess2177VVPguess
what2178WPwhat
is2179VBZbe
criminal2180JJcriminal
...2181:...
not2182RBnot
...2183:...
what2184WPwhat
...2185:...
what2186WPwhat
is2187VBZbe
...2188:...
what2189WPwhat
does2190VVZdo
the2191DTthe
Due2192JJdue
Process2193NNprocess
Clause2194NNclause
require2195VVPrequire
that2196IN/thatthat
we2197PPwe
hang2198VVPhang
onto2199INonto
,2200,,
notwithstanding2201INnotwithstanding
the2202DTthe
judgments2203NNSjudgment
of2204INof
some2205DTsome
states2206NNSstate
that2207IN/thatthat
the2208DTthe
time2209NNtime
for2210INfor
this2211DTthis
has2212VHZhave
come2213VVNcome
and2214CCand
gone2215VVNgo
?2216SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]2217LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well2218UHwell
,2219,,
we2220PPwe
are2221VBPbe
...2222:...
we2223PPwe
actually2224RBactually
have2225VHPhave
sort2226NNsort
of2227INof
a2228DTa
perfect2229JJperfect
complements2230NNScomplement
,2231,,
Justice2232NPJustice
Kagan2233NPKagan
,2234,,
because2235INbecause
we2236PPwe
have2237VHPhave
not2238RBnot
only2239RBonly
the2240DTthe
history2241NNhistory
that2242WDTthat
goes2243VVZgo
back2244RBback
maybe2245RBmaybe
a2246DTa
thousand2247CDthousand
years2248NNSyear
,2249,,
and2250CCand
certainly2251RBcertainly
since2252INsince
the2253DTthe
mid2254JJmid
1500s2255NN1500s
,2256,,
but2257CCbut
we2258PPwe
also2259RBalso
have2260VHPhave
the2261DTthe
modern2262JJmodern
practice2263NNpractice
,2264,,
a2265DTa
fundamental2266JJfundamental
...2267:...
a2268DTa
rule2269NNrule
of2270INof
fundamental2271JJfundamental
fairness2272NNfairness
currently2273RBcurrently
in2274INin
operation2275NNoperation
in2276INin
482277CD@card@
of2278INof
532279CD@card@
U2280NPU
.2281SENT.
S2282NPS
.2283SENT.
jurisdictions2284NNSjurisdiction
.2285SENT.
So2286RBso
it2287PPit
's2288VBZbe
not2289RBnot
just2290RBjust
the2291DTthe
history2292NNhistory
.2293SENT.
It2294PPit
's2295VBZbe
the2296DTthe
fact2297NNfact
that2298IN/thatthat
we2299PPwe
look2300VVPlook
and2301CCand
everyone2302NNeveryone
has2303VHZhave
retained2304VVNretain
it2305PPit
or2306CCor
nearly2307RBnearly
everyone2308NNeveryone
has2309VHZhave
retained2310VVNretain
it2311PPit
.2312SENT.
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]2313LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
With2314INwith
respect2315NNrespect
to2316TOto
history2317NNhistory
,2318,,
can2319MDcan
we2320PPwe
take2321VVtake
into2322INinto
account2323NNaccount
the2324DTthe
reality2325NNreality
,2326,,
in2327INin
the2328DTthe
old2329JJold
days2330NNSday
at2331INat
common2332JJcommon
law2333NNlaw
,2334,,
the2335DTthe
result2336NNresult
of2337INof
the2338DTthe
insanity2339NNinsanity
defense2340NNdefense
would2341MDwould
be2342VBbe
you2343PPyou
were2344VBDbe
sent2345VVNsend
to2346TOto
bedlam2347NNbedlam
,2348,,
where2349WRBwhere
the2350DTthe
conditions2351NNScondition
were2352VBDbe
often2353RBoften
far2354RBfar
worse2355JJRbad
than2356INthan
in2357INin
prison2358NNprison
?2359SENT?
So2360RBso
someone2361NNsomeone
might2362MDmight
decide2363VVdecide
,2364,,
no2365UHno
,2366,,
I2367PPI
'm2368VBPbe
not2369RBnot
going2370VVGgo
to2371TOto
plead2372VVplead
insanity2373NNinsanity
,2374,,
because2375INbecause
then2376RBthen
I2377PPI
'll2378MDwill
end2379VVend
up2380RPup
with2381INwith
an2382DTan
incarceration2383NNincarceration
worse2384JJRbad
than2385INthan
prison2386NNprison
.2387SENT.
Do2388VVdo
we2389PPwe
take2390VVtake
that2391IN/thatthat
into2392INinto
account2393NNaccount
in2394INin
deciding2395VVGdecide
the2396DTthe
function2397NNfunction
of2398INof
the2399DTthe
insanity2400NNinsanity
defense2401NNdefense
?2402SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]2403LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
I2404PPI
do2405VVPdo
n't2406RBn't
think2407VVthink
you2408PPyou
need2409VVPneed
to2410TOto
take2411VVtake
it2412PPit
into2413INinto
account2414NNaccount
.2415SENT.
I2416PPI
think2417VVPthink
what2418WPwhat
the2419DTthe
fundamental2420JJfundamental
principle2421NNprinciple
is2422VBZbe
,2423,,
is2424VBZbe
that2425IN/thatthat
the2426DTthe
good2427JJgood
and2428CCand
evil2429JJevil
principle2430NNprinciple
or2431CCor
the2432DTthe
right2433NNright
and2434CCand
wrong2435JJwrong
principle2436NNprinciple
as2437INas
applied2438VVNapply
to2439TOto
the2440DTthe
insane2441JJinsane
,2442,,
it2443PPit
's2444VBZbe
...2445:...
it2446PPit
's2447VBZbe
the2448DTthe
application2449NNapplication
to2450TOto
the2451DTthe
insane2452NNinsane
that2453WDTthat
has2454VHZhave
...2455:...
is2456VBZbe
deeply2457RBdeeply
rooted2458VVNroot
in2459INin
our2460PP$our
country2461NNcountry
.2462SENT.
And2463CCand
where2464WRBwhere
those2465DTthose
people2466NNSpeople
...2467:...
I2468PPI
mean2469VVPmean
,2470,,
in2471INin
today2472NNtoday
's2473POS's
time2474NNtime
,2475,,
those2476DTthose
people2477NNSpeople
would2478MDwould
n't2479RBn't
be2480VBbe
sent2481VVNsend
there2482RBthere
,2483,,
right2484RBright
?2485SENT?
We2486PPwe
know2487VVPknow
after2488INafter
Foucha2489NPFoucha
that2490IN/thatthat
this2491DTthis
...2492:...
those2493DTthose
people2494NNSpeople
are2495VBPbe
sent2496VVNsend
to2497TOto
an2498DTan
institution2499NNinstitution
.2500SENT.
So2501RBso
,2502,,
no2503UHno
,2504,,
I2505PPI
do2506VVPdo
n't2507RBn't
think2508VVthink
it2509PPit
's2510VBZbe
...2511:...
it2512PPit
's2513VBZbe
how2514WRBhow
they2515PPthey
were2516VBDbe
historically2517RBhistorically
...2518:...
where2519WRBwhere
they2520PPthey
ended2521VVDend
up2522RPup
.2523SENT.
They2524PPthey
ended2525VVDend
up2526RPup
in2527INin
a2528DTa
lot2529NNlot
of2530INof
places2531NNSplace
,2532,,
Justice2533NPJustice
Ginsburg2534NPGinsburg
.2535SENT.
Sometimes2536RBsometimes
they2537PPthey
ended2538VVDend
up2539RPup
there2540RBthere
.2541SENT.
Sometimes2542RBsometimes
they2543PPthey
were2544VBDbe
released2545VVNrelease
to2546TOto
their2547PP$their
families2548NNSfamily
.2549SENT.
So2550RBso
...2551:...
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2552LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
The2553DTthe
things2554NNSthing
that2555WDTthat
I2556PPI
...2557:...
I2558PPI
think2559VVPthink
is2560VBZbe
underlying2561VVGunderlie
a2562DTa
lot2563NNlot
of2564INof
the2565DTthe
debate2566NNdebate
is2567VBZbe
the2568DTthe
expansive2569JJexpansive
notion2570NNnotion
of2571INof
what2572WPwhat
counts2573VVZcount
as2574INas
evidence2575NNevidence
.2576SENT.
In2577RBin
...2578:...
in2579INin
...2580:...
in2581INin
your2582PP$your
brief2583NNbrief
,2584,,
you2585PPyou
say2586VVPsay
the2587DTthe
defendant2588NNdefendant
in2589INin
this2590DTthis
case2591NNcase
was2592VBDbe
...2593:...
this2594DTthis
is2595VBZbe
evidence2596NNevidence
to2597TOto
support2598VVsupport
his2599PP$his
insanity2600NNinsanity
claim2601NNclaim
,2602,,
was2603VBDbe
described2604VVNdescribe
by2605INby
some2606DTsome
as2607INas
a2608DTa
tightwad2609NNtightwad
who2610WPwho
would2611MDwould
,2612,,
for2613INfor
example2614NNexample
,2615,,
borrow2616VVborrow
rather2617RBrather
than2618INthan
purchase2619NNpurchase
tools2620NNStool
.2621SENT.
And2622CCand
...2623:...
and2624CCand
in2625INin
the2626DTthe
same2627JJsame
page2628NNpage
,2629,,
again2630RBagain
,2631,,
this2632DTthis
is2633VBZbe
evidence2634NNevidence
that2635IN/thatthat
you2636PPyou
selected2637VVDselect
in2638INin
the2639DTthe
...2640:...
to2641TOto
put2642VVput
in2643INin
your2644PP$your
brief2645NNbrief
of2646INof
his2647PP$his
mental2648JJmental
disorder2649NNdisorder
,2650,,
that2651WDTthat
he2652PPhe
thrived2653VVDthrive
on2654INon
self-importance2655NNself-importance
,2656,,
community2657NNcommunity
prestige2658NNprestige
,2659,,
and2660CCand
being2661VBGbe
perceived2662VVNperceive
as2663INas
having2664VHGhave
an2665DTan
ideal2666JJideal
or2667CCor
perfect2668JJperfect
marriage2669NNmarriage
.2670SENT.
Now2671RBnow
,2672,,
maybe2673RBmaybe
that2674DTthat
's2675VBZbe
not2676RBnot
the2677DTthe
best2678JJSgood
way2679NNway
to2680TOto
order2681VVorder
your2682PP$your
life2683NNlife
,2684,,
but2685CCbut
if2686INif
that2687DTthat
's2688VBZbe
what2689WPwhat
you2690PPyou
mean2691VVPmean
by2692INby
insanity2693NNinsanity
,2694,,
you2695PPyou
can2696MDcan
understand2697VVunderstand
why2698WRBwhy
that2699DTthat
might2700MDmight
cause2701VVcause
some2702DTsome
reservations2703NNSreservation
.2704SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]2705LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Your2706PP$your
Honor2707NPHonor
,2708,,
Mr2709NPMr
...2710:...
.2711SENT.
Mr2712NPMr
.2713SENT.
Chief2714NPChief
Justice2715NPJustice
,2716,,
let2717VVDlet
me2718PPme
just2719RBjust
tell2720VVtell
you2721PPyou
why2722WRBwhy
those2723DTthose
facts2724NNSfact
are2725VBPbe
in2726INin
there2727RBthere
and2728CCand
why2729WRBwhy
they2730PPthey
're2731VBPbe
not2732RBnot
...2733:...
why2734WRBwhy
they2735PPthey
're2736VBPbe
there2737RBthere
and2738CCand
that2739IN/thatthat
will2740MDwill
shed2741VVshed
light2742JJlight
on2743INon
it2744PPit
.2745SENT.
What2746WPWhat
we2747PPwe
know2748VVPknow
is2749VBZbe
that2750IN/thatthat
Mr2751NPMr
.2752SENT.
Kahler2753NPKahler
had2754VHDhave
a2755DTa
major2756JJmajor
depressive2757JJdepressive
disorder2758NNdisorder
.2759SENT.
He2760PPhe
had2761VHDhave
a2762DTa
qualifying2763VVGqualify
mental2764JJmental
illness2765NNillness
.2766SENT.
Those2767DTthose
facts2768NNSfact
are2769VBPbe
in2770INin
there2771EXthere
to2772TOto
show2773VVshow
that2774IN/thatthat
there2775EXthere
was2776VBDbe
an2777DTan
entire2778JJentire
other2779JJother
category2780NNcategory
of2781INof
evidence2782NNevidence
that2783IN/thatthat
,2784,,
in2785INin
combination2786NNcombination
with2787INwith
that2788DTthat
major2789JJmajor
depressive2790JJdepressive
disorder2791NNdisorder
,2792,,
could2793MDcould
have2794VHhave
been2795VBNbe
been2796VBNbe
developed2797VVNdevelop
.2798SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2799LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
But2800CCbut
that2801WDTthat
he2802PPhe
...2803:...
[MS. SCHRUP]2804LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
But2805CCbut
it2806PPit
does2807VVZdo
n't2808RBn't
...2809:...
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2810LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
...2811:...
borrows2812VVZborrow
tools2813NNStool
instead2814RBinstead
of2815INof
purchasing2816VVGpurchase
them2817PPthem
?2818SENT?
That2819DTthat
sounds2820NNSsound
like2821INlike
the2822DTthe
reasonable2823JJreasonable
option2824NNoption
.2825SENT.
[2826SYM[
LAUGHTER2827NNlaughter
]2828SYM]
[MS. SCHRUP]2829LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well2830UHwell
,2831,,
you2832PPyou
can2833MDcan
't2834RB't
...2835:...
Mr2836NPMr
.2837SENT.
Chief2838NPChief
Justice2839NPJustice
,2840,,
you2841PPyou
can2842MDcan
't2843RB't
take2844VVtake
that2845IN/thatthat
one2846CDone
fact2847NNfact
out2848RPout
of2849INof
context2850NNcontext
.2851SENT.
But2852CCbut
the2853DTthe
most2854RBSmost
important2855JJimportant
thing2856NNthing
is2857VBZbe
,2858,,
is2859VBZbe
that2860IN/thatthat
juries2861NNSjury
are2862VBPbe
able2863JJable
to2864TOto
take2865VVtake
the2866DTthe
collection2867NNcollection
of2868INof
evidence2869NNevidence
and2870CCand
...2871:...
that2872WDTthat
is2873VBZbe
presented2874VVNpresent
to2875TOto
them2876PPthem
,2877,,
and2878CCand
decide2879VVdecide
,2880,,
they2881PPthey
decide2882VVPdecide
whether2883INwhether
the2884DTthe
person2885NNperson
is2886VBZbe
insane2887JJinsane
,2888,,
whether2889INwhether
they2890PPthey
have2891VHPhave
the2892DTthe
capacity2893NNcapacity
for2894INfor
moral2895JJmoral
judgment2896NNjudgment
or2897CCor
not2898RBnot
.2899SENT.
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]2900LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
What2901WDTwhat
...2902:...
what2903WPwhat
would2904MDwould
be2905VBbe
put2906VVNput
before2907INbefore
the2908DTthe
jury2909NNjury
,2910,,
that2911WDTthat
is2912VBZbe
,2913,,
what2914WPwhat
now2915RBnow
,2916,,
what2917WPwhat
evidence2918NNevidence
in2919INin
this2920DTthis
record2921NNrecord
would2922MDwould
you2923PPyou
point2924VVPpoint
to2925TOto
to2926TOto
show2927VVshow
that2928IN/thatthat
Kahler2929NPKahler
was2930VBDbe
unable2931JJunable
to2932TOto
tell2933VVtell
right2934NNright
from2935INfrom
wrong2936JJwrong
?2937SENT?
What2938WPWhat
evidence2939NNevidence
is2940VBZbe
there2941RBthere
that2942IN/thatthat
he2943PPhe
was2944VBDbe
unable2945JJunable
to2946TOto
make2947VVmake
that2948DTthat
distinction2949NNdistinction
?2950SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]2951LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
On2952INon
the2953DTthe
current2954JJcurrent
record2955NNrecord
...2956:...
which2957WDTwhich
,2958,,
of2959INof
course2960NNcourse
,2961,,
was2962VBDbe
not2963RBnot
developed2964VVNdevelop
with2965INwith
a2966DTa
right2967NNright
and2968CCand
wrong2969JJwrong
principle2970NNprinciple
...2971:...
I2972PPI
would2973MDwould
point2974VVpoint
you2975PPyou
to2976TOto
the2977DTthe
Joint2978NPJoint
Appendix2979NPAppendix
at2980INat
872981CD@card@
where2982WRBwhere
his2983PP$his
expert2984NNexpert
said2985VVDsay
that2986IN/thatthat
he2987PPhe
...2988:...
he2989PPhe
could2990MDcould
n't2991RBn't
rule2992VVrule
out2993RPout
short-term2994JJshort-term
disassociation2995NNdisassociation
.2996SENT.
If2997INif
you2998PPyou
are2999VBPbe
off-line3000NNoff-line
in3001INin
that3002DTthat
way3003NNway
,3004,,
he3005PPhe
could3006MDcould
n't3007RBn't
appreciate3008VVappreciate
right3009JJright
versus3010CCversus
wrong3011JJwrong
.3012SENT.
But3013CCbut
,3014,,
again3015RBagain
,3016,,
I3017PPI
'd3018MDwould
like3019VVlike
to3020TOto
point3021VVpoint
out3022RPout
that3023IN/thatthat
he3024PPhe
was3025VBDbe
...3026:...
he3027PPhe
was3028VBDbe
not3029RBnot
even3030RBeven
given3031VVNgive
the3032DTthe
opportunity3033NNopportunity
to3034TOto
put3035VVput
forth3036RBforth
that3037IN/thatthat
and3038CCand
to3039TOto
develop3040VVdevelop
other3041JJother
evidence3042NNevidence
that3043WDTthat
would3044MDwould
have3045VHhave
shown3046VVNshow
more3047RBRmore
forcefully3048RBforcefully
that3049IN/thatthat
he3050PPhe
did3051VVDdo
n't3052RBn't
.3053SENT.
And3054CCand
that3055WDTthat
's3056VBZbe
...3057:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]3058LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well3059UHwell
,3060,,
he3061PPhe
had3062VHDhave
the3063DTthe
...3064:...
[MS. SCHRUP]3065LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...3066:...
the3067DTthe
same3068JJsame
for3069INfor
every3070DTevery
defendant3071NNdefendant
.3072SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]3073LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
He3074PPhe
had3075VHDhave
the3076DTthe
opportunity3077NNopportunity
and3078CCand
every3079DTevery
incentive3080NNincentive
to3081TOto
do3082VVdo
that3083IN/thatthat
at3084INat
the3085DTthe
penalty3086NNpenalty
phase3087NNphase
.3088SENT.
At3089INat
the3090DTthe
penalty3091NNpenalty
phase3092NNphase
,3093,,
he3094PPhe
was3095VBDbe
able3096JJable
to3097TOto
...3098:...
to3099TOto
argue3100VVargue
I3101PPI
should3102MDshould
n't3103RBn't
get3104VVget
a3105DTa
death3106NNdeath
sentence3107NNsentence
because3108INbecause
I3109PPI
did3110VVDdo
n't3111RBn't
know3112VVknow
that3113IN/thatthat
what3114WPwhat
I3115PPI
was3116VBDbe
doing3117VVGdo
was3118VBDbe
morally3119RBmorally
wrong3120JJwrong
.3121SENT.
And3122CCand
you3123PPyou
'd3124MDwould
think3125VVthink
that3126IN/thatthat
,3127,,
if3128INif
the3129DTthe
jury3130NNjury
believed3131VVDbelieve
that3132IN/thatthat
,3133,,
they3134PPthey
would3135MDwould
n't3136RBn't
have3137VHhave
imposed3138VVNimpose
the3139DTthe
death3140NNdeath
penalty3141NNpenalty
.3142SENT.
But3143CCbut
they3144PPthey
did3145VVDdo
.3146SENT.
And3147CCand
you3148PPyou
have3149VHPhave
to3150TOto
keep3151VVkeep
in3152INin
mind3153NNmind
what3154WPwhat
he3155PPhe
did3156VVDdo
.3157SENT.
And3158CCand
this3159DTthis
is3160VBZbe
an3161DTan
intelligent3162JJintelligent
man3163NNman
,3164,,
and3165CCand
he3166PPhe
sneaked3167VVDsneak
up3168RPup
on3169INon
the3170DTthe
house3171NNhouse
,3172,,
where3173WRBwhere
his3174PP$his
wife3175NNwife
and3176CCand
her3177PP$her
mother3178NNmother
and3179CCand
his3180PP$his
children3181NNSchild
were3182VBDbe
staying3183VVGstay
.3184SENT.
He3185PPhe
killed3186VVDkill
his3187PP$his
ex-wife3188NNex-wife
.3189SENT.
He3190PPhe
killed3191VVDkill
his3192PP$his
ex3193FWex
...3194:...
her3195PP$her
mother3196NNmother
.3197SENT.
He3198PPhe
executed3199VVDexecute
his3200PP$his
two3201CDtwo
teenage3202JJteenage
daughters3203NNSdaughter
.3204SENT.
One3205CDOne
of3206INof
them3207PPthem
is3208VBZbe
heard3209VVNhear
on3210INon
the3211DTthe
tape3212NNtape
crying3213VVGcry
.3214SENT.
He3215PPhe
,3216,,
nevertheless3217RBnevertheless
,3218,,
shot3219VVDshoot
her3220PPher
to3221TOto
death3222NNdeath
.3223SENT.
He3224PPhe
spared3225VVDspare
the3226DTthe
son3227NNson
,3228,,
because3229INbecause
he3230PPhe
did3231VVDdo
n't3232RBn't
think3233VVthink
the3234DTthe
son3235NNson
was3236VBDbe
siding3237VVGside
with3238INwith
the3239DTthe
mother3240NNmother
.3241SENT.
And3242CCand
then3243RBthen
he3244PPhe
ran3245VVDrun
away3246RBaway
and3247CCand
turned3248VVDturn
himself3249PPhimself
in3250INin
the3251DTthe
next3252JJnext
day3253NNday
.3254SENT.
Now3255RBnow
,3256,,
this3257DTthis
is3258VBZbe
the3259DTthe
stuff3260NNstuff
from3261INfrom
which3262WDTwhich
you3263PPyou
're3264VBPbe
going3265VVGgo
to3266TOto
make3267VVmake
a3268DTa
defense3269NNdefense
he3270PPhe
did3271VVDdo
n't3272RBn't
know3273VVknow
that3274IN/thatthat
what3275WPwhat
he3276PPhe
was3277VBDbe
doing3278VVGdo
was3279VBDbe
morally3280RBmorally
wrong3281JJwrong
,3282,,
much3283JJmuch
less3284CCless
he3285PPhe
did3286VVDdo
n't3287RBn't
know3288VVknow
what3289WPwhat
he3290PPhe
was3291VBDbe
doing3292VVGdo
was3293VBDbe
legally3294RBlegally
wrong3295JJwrong
?3296SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]3297LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Justice3298NPJustice
Alito3299NPAlito
,3300,,
I3301PPI
'll3302MDwill
answer3303VVanswer
the3304DTthe
first3305JJfirst
part3306NNpart
.3307SENT.
Sentencing3308NNsentencing
is3309VBZbe
not3310RBnot
a3311DTa
substitute3312NNsubstitute
because3313INbecause
we3314PPwe
know3315VVPknow
from3316INfrom
the3317DTthe
briefs3318NNSbrief
that3319WDTthat
jurors3320NNSjuror
make3321VVPmake
up3322RPup
their3323PP$their
mind3324NNmind
at3325INat
the3326DTthe
guilt3327NNguilt
phase3328NNphase
.3329SENT.
And3330CCand
,3331,,
In3332INin
fact3333NNfact
,3334,,
a3335DTa
dissenting3336JJdissenting
Justice3337NNjustice
in3338INin
the3339DTthe
opinion3340NNopinion
below3341RBbelow
said3342VVDsay
we3343PPwe
should3344MDshould
not3345RBnot
let3346VVlet
what3347WPwhat
happens3348VVZhappen
at3349INat
guilt3350NNguilt
indicate3351VVPindicate
what3352WPwhat
happens3353VVZhappen
at3354INat
sentencing3355NNsentencing
.3356SENT.
And3357CCand
because3358INbecause
that3359WDTthat
he3360PPhe
lacked3361VVDlack
that3362IN/thatthat
,3363,,
the3364DTthe
jury3365NNjury
lacked3366VVDlack
that3367DTthat
lens3368NNlens
to3369TOto
consider3370VVconsider
the3371DTthe
moral3372JJmoral
capacity3373NNcapacity
principle3374NNprinciple
,3375,,
you3376PPyou
can3377MDcan
't3378RB't
draw3379VVdraw
any3380DTany
...3381:...
it3382PPit
would3383MDwould
be3384VBbe
speculative3385JJspeculative
to3386TOto
say3387VVsay
what3388WPwhat
the3389DTthe
capital3390NNcapital
jury3391NNjury
would3392MDwould
have3393VHhave
decided3394VVNdecide
.3395SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]3396LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
But3397CCbut
is3398VBZbe
that3399IN/thatthat
realistic3400JJrealistic
?3401SENT?
I3402PPI
'm3403VBPbe
on3404INon
a3405DTa
jury3406NNjury
and3407CCand
I3408PPI
say3409VVPsay
:3410::
Well3411UHWell
,3412,,
now3413RBnow
I3414PPI
...3415:...
I3416PPI
've3417VHPhave
convicted3418VVNconvict
this3419DTthis
guy3420NNguy
.3421SENT.
I3422PPI
found3423VVDfind
him3424PPhim
guilty3425JJguilty
.3426SENT.
Having3427VHGhave
done3428VVNdo
that3429IN/thatthat
,3430,,
even3431RBeven
though3432INthough
I3433PPI
think3434VVPthink
that3435IN/thatthat
he3436PPhe
did3437VVDdo
n't3438RBn't
know3439VVknow
that3440IN/thatthat
what3441WPwhat
he3442PPhe
was3443VBDbe
doing3444VVGdo
was3445VBDbe
morally3446RBmorally
wrong3447JJwrong
,3448,,
I3449PPI
'm3450VBPbe
going3451VVGgo
to3452TOto
vote3453VVvote
to3454TOto
impose3455VVimpose
the3456DTthe
death3457NNdeath
penalty3458NNpenalty
.3459SENT.
Is3460VBZbe
that3461IN/thatthat
realistic3462JJrealistic
?3463SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]3464LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
It3465PPit
is3466VBZbe
realistic3467JJrealistic
because3468INbecause
we3469PPwe
know3470VVPknow
from3471INfrom
the3472DTthe
briefs3473NNSbrief
that3474WDTthat
they3475PPthey
...3476:...
that3477IN/thatthat
jurors3478NNSjuror
are3479VBPbe
swayed3480VVNsway
by3481INby
what3482WPwhat
they3483PPthey
decide3484VVPdecide
at3485INat
the3486DTthe
guilt3487NNguilt
phase3488NNphase
.3489SENT.
And3490CCand
if3491INif
they3492PPthey
have3493VHPhave
lacked3494VVNlack
the3495DTthe
mechanism3496NNmechanism
and3497CCand
the3498DTthe
opportunity3499NNopportunity
to3500TOto
look3501VVlook
through3502INthrough
the3503DTthe
lens3504NNlens
of3505INof
capacity3506NNcapacity
for3507INfor
moral3508JJmoral
judgment3509NNjudgment
,3510,,
then3511RBthen
...3512:...
then3513RBthen
we3514PPwe
can3515MDcan
't3516RB't
draw3517VVdraw
any3518DTany
conclusions3519NNSconclusion
about3520INabout
that3521DTthat
.3522SENT.
Now3523RBnow
,3524,,
the3525DTthe
facts3526NNSfact
are3527VBPbe
hard3528JJhard
in3529INin
every3530DTevery
case3531NNcase
and3532CCand
they3533PPthey
are3534VBPbe
hard3535JJhard
in3536INin
this3537DTthis
case3538NNcase
.3539SENT.
But3540CCbut
what3541WPwhat
we3542PPwe
're3543VBPbe
talking3544VVGtalk
about3545RBabout
is3546VBZbe
an3547DTan
opportunity3548NNopportunity
,3549,,
a3550DTa
mechanism3551NNmechanism
for3552INfor
all3553DTall
defendants3554NNSdefendant
,3555,,
to3556TOto
be3557VBbe
able3558JJable
to3559TOto
get3560VVget
into3561INinto
the3562DTthe
threshold3563NNthreshold
and3564CCand
let3565VVlet
a3566DTa
jury3567NNjury
decide3568VVdecide
...3569:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3570LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
You3571PPyou
've3572VHPhave
referred3573VVNrefer
several3574JJseveral
times3575NNStime
to3576TOto
the3577DTthe
jury3578NNjury
.3579SENT.
And3580CCand
one3581CDone
of3582INof
the3583DTthe
debates3584NNSdebate
that3585WDTthat
has3586VHZhave
occurred3587VVNoccur
over3588INover
the3589DTthe
last3590JJlast
several3591JJseveral
decades3592NNSdecade
is3593VBZbe
the3594DTthe
capacity3595NNcapacity
of3596INof
juries3597NNSjury
to3598TOto
be3599VBbe
able3600JJable
to3601TOto
parse3602VVparse
these3603DTthese
fine3604JJfine
concepts3605NNSconcept
.3606SENT.
And3607CCand
one3608CDone
of3609INof
the3610DTthe
things3611NNSthing
that3612IN/thatthat
leading3613VVGlead
scholars3614NNSscholar
have3615VHPhave
said3616VVNsay
is3617VBZbe
that3618IN/thatthat
this3619DTthis
may3620MDmay
be3621VBbe
beyond3622INbeyond
the3623DTthe
capacity3624NNcapacity
of3625INof
jurors3626NNSjuror
to3627TOto
do3628VVdo
in3629INin
a3630DTa
principled3631JJprincipled
way3632NNway
.3633SENT.
So3634RBso
why3635WRBwhy
can3636MDcan
't3637RB't
a3638DTa
state3639NNstate
say3640VVPsay
,3641,,
as3642INas
Justice3643NPJustice
Alito3644NPAlito
points3645VVZpoint
out3646RPout
,3647,,
we3648PPwe
're3649VBPbe
going3650VVGgo
to3651TOto
take3652VVtake
this3653DTthis
away3654RBaway
from3655INfrom
the3656DTthe
jury3657NNjury
as3658INas
a3659DTa
separate3660JJseparate
defense3661NNdefense
,3662,,
put3663VVDput
it3664PPit
into3665INinto
mens3666NPmens
rea3667NPrea
,3668,,
and3669CCand
then3670RBthen
,3671,,
as3672INas
Justice3673NPJustice
Ginsburg3674NPGinsburg
points3675VVZpoint
out3676RPout
,3677,,
have3678VHPhave
it3679PPit
considered3680VVNconsider
at3681INat
sentencing3682NNsentencing
?3683SENT?
Why3684WRBwhy
is3685VBZbe
that3686IN/thatthat
an3687DTan
unreasonable3688JJunreasonable
policy3689NNpolicy
judgment3690NNjudgment
,3691,,
so3692RBso
unreasonable3693JJunreasonable
as3694RBas
to3695TOto
violate3696VVviolate
due3697JJdue
process3698NNprocess
?3699SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]3700LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well3701UHWell
,3702,,
two3703CDtwo
points3704NNSpoint
,3705,,
Justice3706NPJustice
Kavanaugh3707NPKavanaugh
.3708SENT.
First3709JJfirst
of3710INof
all3711DTall
,3712,,
the3713DTthe
critiques3714NNScritique
or3715CCor
the3716DTthe
debates3717NNSdebate
were3718VBDbe
not3719RBnot
about3720INabout
abolition3721NNabolition
.3722SENT.
They3723PPthey
were3724VBDbe
not3725RBnot
about3726RBabout
scrapping3727VVGscrap
the3728DTthe
defense3729NNdefense
entirely3730RBentirely
.3731SENT.
Those3732DTthose
should3733MDshould
be3734VBbe
handled3735VVNhandle
through3736INthrough
instructional3737JJinstructional
or3738CCor
...3739:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3740LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Well3741UHWell
...3742:...
[MS. SCHRUP]3743LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...3744:...
evidentiary3745JJevidentiary
mechanisms3746NNSmechanism
.3747SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3748LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Sorry3749JJsorry
to3750TOto
interrupt3751VVinterrupt
,3752,,
but3753CCbut
I3754PPI
think3755VVPthink
one3756PPone
of3757INof
the3758DTthe
debates3759NNSdebate
was3760VBDbe
,3761,,
in3762INin
fact3763NNfact
,3764,,
about3765RBabout
putting3766VVGput
it3767PPit
into3768INinto
a3769DTa
mens3770NPmens
rea3771NPrea
defense3772NNdefense
as3773INas
Kansas3774NPKansas
has3775VHZhave
done3776VVNdo
,3777,,
in3778INin
part3779NNpart
because3780INbecause
the3781DTthe
concept3782NNconcept
as3783INas
a3784DTa
separate3785JJseparate
defense3786NNdefense
was3787VBDbe
too3788RBtoo
confusing3789JJconfusing
for3790INfor
jurors3791NNSjuror
.3792SENT.
And3793CCand
Professor3794NPProfessor
Goldstein3795NPGoldstein
pointed3796VVDpoint
that3797IN/thatthat
out3798INout
in3799INin
his3800PP$his
book3801NNbook
and3802CCand
that3803WDTthat
has3804VHZhave
been3805VBNbe
part3806NNpart
of3807INof
the3808DTthe
debate3809NNdebate
.3810SENT.
So3811RBso
they3812PPthey
have3813VHPhave
n't3814RBn't
necessarily3815RBnecessarily
abolished3816VVNabolish
the3817DTthe
insanity3818NNinsanity
defense3819NNdefense
.3820SENT.
I3821PPI
think3822VVPthink
that3823DTthat
's3824VBZbe
a3825DTa
bit3826NNbit
of3827INof
a3828DTa
misnomer3829NNmisnomer
.3830SENT.
They3831PPthey
have3832VHPhave
funneled3833VVNfunnel
it3834PPit
into3835INinto
mens3836NPmens
rea3837NPrea
and3838CCand
then3839RBthen
said3840VVDsay
that3841IN/thatthat
it3842PPit
can3843MDcan
be3844VBbe
considered3845VVNconsider
at3846INat
sentencing3847VVGsentence
as3848RBas
well3849RBwell
.3850SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]3851LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Justice3852NPJustice
Kavanaugh3853NPKavanaugh
,3854,,
they3855PPthey
have3856VHPhave
abolished3857VVNabolish
.3858SENT.
I3859PPI
mean3860VVPmean
,3861,,
they3862PPthey
...3863:...
they3864PPthey
've3865VHPhave
acknowledged3866VVNacknowledge
they3867PPthey
've3868VHPhave
abolished3869VVNabolish
.3870SENT.
And3871CCand
what3872WPwhat
is3873VBZbe
present3874JJpresent
in3875INin
the3876DTthe
mens3877NPmens
rea3878NPrea
approach3879NNapproach
is3880VBZbe
nothing3881RBnothing
more3882JJRmore
than3883INthan
what3884WPwhat
Winship3885NPWinship
requires3886VVZrequire
.3887SENT.
And3888CCand
we3889PPwe
know3890VVPknow
that3891IN/thatthat
it3892PPit
is3893VBZbe
not3894RBnot
sufficient3895JJsufficient
because3896INbecause
it3897PPit
does3898VVZdo
n't3899RBn't
allow3900VVallow
...3901:...
it3902PPit
does3903VVZdo
n't3904RBn't
allow3905VVallow
a3906DTa
jury3907NNjury
or3908CCor
...3909:...
or3910CCor
the3911DTthe
defendant3912NNdefendant
to3913TOto
raise3914VVraise
his3915PP$his
capacity3916NNcapacity
for3917INfor
moral3918JJmoral
judgment3919NNjudgment
,3920,,
which3921WDTwhich
,3922,,
if3923INif
you3924PPyou
go3925VVPgo
back3926RBback
through3927INthrough
history3928NNhistory
,3929,,
was3930VBDbe
an3931DTan
important3932JJimportant
component3933NNcomponent
...3934:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]3935LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms3936NNMs
...3937:...
.3938SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]3939LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...3940:...
of3941INof
criminal3942JJcriminal
culpability3943NNculpability
.3944SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]3945LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms3946NNMs
.3947SENT.
Schrup3948NPSchrup
,3949,,
do3950VVPdo
you3951PPyou
have3952VHPhave
any3953DTany
information3954NNinformation
about3955INabout
how3956WRBhow
this3957DTthis
works3958NNSwork
in3959INin
the3960DTthe
states3961NNSstate
that3962WDTthat
have3963VHPhave
the3964DTthe
rule3965NNrule
that3966IN/thatthat
you3967PPyou
prefer3968VVPprefer
?3969SENT?
In3970INin
other3971JJother
words3972NNSword
,3973,,
how3974WRBhow
often3975RBoften
do3976VVPdo
people3977NNSpeople
raise3978VVraise
insanity3979NNinsanity
defenses3980NNSdefense
?3981SENT?
How3982WRBHow
often3983RBoften
do3984VVdo
juries3985NNSjury
actually3986RBactually
find3987VVPfind
insanity3988NNinsanity
?3989SENT?
If3990INif
this3991DTthis
were3992VBDbe
in3993INin
one3994CDone
of3995INof
the3996DTthe
other3997JJother
463998CD@card@
states3999NNSstate
,4000,,
how4001WRBhow
would4002MDwould
it4003PPit
operate4004VVoperate
?4005SENT?
But4006CCbut
...4007:...
or4008CCor
...4009:...
or4010CCor
not4011RBnot
if4012INif
this4013DTthis
case4014NNcase
was4015VBDbe
.4016SENT.
I4017PPI
mean4018VVPmean
,4019,,
honestly4020RBhonestly
,4021,,
you4022PPyou
can4023MDcan
't4024RB't
say4025VVPsay
this4026DTthis
,4027,,
but4028CCbut
I4029PPI
can4030MDcan
.4031SENT.
This4032DTthis
...4033:...
in4034INin
none4035NNnone
of4036INof
these4037DTthese
464038CD@card@
states4039NNSstate
,4040,,
I'm4041NPI'm
...4042:...
I'm4043NNI'm
...4044:...
I4045PPI
'm4046VBPbe
guessing4047VVGguess
,4048,,
would4049MDwould
your4050PP$your
client4051NNclient
be4052VBbe
found4053VVNfind
insane4054JJinsane
.4055SENT.
But4056CCbut
what4057WPwhat
happens4058VVZhappen
in4059INin
these4060DTthese
464061CD@card@
states4062NNSstate
?4063SENT?
How4064WRBHow
often4065RBoften
are4066VBPbe
people4067NNSpeople
found4068VVDfind
insane4069JJinsane
?4070SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]4071LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
So4072RBso
,4073,,
Justice4074NPJustice
Kagan4075NPKagan
,4076,,
it4077PPit
's4078VBZbe
not4079RBnot
in4080INin
the4081DTthe
record4082NNrecord
.4083SENT.
I4084PPI
have4085VHPhave
done4086VVNdo
some4087DTsome
research4088NNresearch
.4089SENT.
I4090PPI
could4091MDcould
let4092VVlet
you4093PPyou
know4094VVknow
what4095WPwhat
I4096PPI
found4097VVDfind
out4098RPout
if4099INif
you4100PPyou
'd4101MDwould
like4102VVlike
me4103PPme
to4104TOto
,4105,,
but4106CCbut
it4107PPit
's4108VBZbe
not4109RBnot
contained4110VVNcontain
in4111INin
the4112DTthe
record4113NNrecord
.4114SENT.
But4115CCbut
I4116PPI
do4117VVPdo
know4118VVknow
that4119IN/thatthat
it4120PPit
is4121VBZbe
raised4122VVNraise
in4123INin
the4124DTthe
right-and-wrong4125NNright-and-wrong
states4126NNSstate
and4127CCand
that4128IN/thatthat
there4129EXthere
are4130VBPbe
acquittals4131NNSacquittal
every4132DTevery
year4133NNyear
.4134SENT.
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]4135LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
And4136CCand
,4137,,
counsel4138NNcounsel
,4139,,
can4140MDcan
I4141PPI
just4142RBjust
...4143:...
one4144CDone
other4145JJother
question4146NNquestion
about4147INabout
the4148DTthe
extent4149NNextent
of4150INof
how4151WRBhow
far4152RBfar
this4153DTthis
goes4154VVZgo
.4155SENT.
Obviously4156RBobviously
,4157,,
this4158DTthis
is4159VBZbe
a4160DTa
capital4161NNcapital
case4162NNcase
,4163,,
but4164CCbut
how4165WRBhow
...4166:...
how4167WRBhow
far4168RBfar
down4169RBdown
the4170DTthe
road4171NNroad
would4172MDwould
you4173PPyou
say4174VVsay
this4175DTthis
defense4176NNdefense
must4177MDmust
be4178VBbe
extended4179VVNextend
as4180INas
a4181DTa
matter4182NNmatter
of4183INof
due4184JJdue
process4185NNprocess
?4186SENT?
To4187TOTo
all4188DTall
homicides4189NNShomicide
?4190SENT?
To4191TOTo
all4192DTall
felonies4193NNSfelony
?4194SENT?
Where4195WRBwhere
do4196VVPdo
you4197PPyou
think4198VVPthink
the4199DTthe
line4200NNline
would4201MDwould
be4202VBbe
drawn4203VVNdraw
?4204SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]4205LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
I4206PPI
do4207VVPdo
n't4208RBn't
think4209VVthink
that4210IN/thatthat
you4211PPyou
draw4212VVPdraw
the4213DTthe
line4214NNline
,4215,,
Justice4216NPJustice
Gorsuch4217NPGorsuch
,4218,,
at4219INat
punishment4220NNpunishment
.4221SENT.
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]4222LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
So4223INso
an4224DTan
insanity4225NNinsanity
defense4226NNdefense
is4227VBZbe
required4228VVNrequire
with4229INwith
respect4230NNrespect
to4231TOto
any4232DTany
criminal4233JJcriminal
complaint4234NNcomplaint
,4235,,
even4236RBeven
a4237DTa
regulatory4238JJregulatory
strict4239JJstrict
liability4240NNliability
misdemeanor4241NNmisdemeanor
?4242SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]4243LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
This4244NPThis
Court4245NPCourt
has4246VHZhave
never4247RBnever
...4248:...
well4249RBwell
,4250,,
so4251RBso
it4252PPit
's4253VBZbe
our4254PP$our
position4255NNposition
...4256:...
we4257PPwe
're4258VBPbe
making4259VVGmake
a4260DTa
facial4261JJfacial
challenge4262NNchallenge
,4263,,
so4264RBso
it4265PPit
's4266VBZbe
our4267PP$our
position4268NNposition
it4269PPit
should4270MDshould
be4271VBbe
applied4272VVNapply
everywhere4273RBeverywhere
.4274SENT.
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]4275LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
Okay4276NPOkay
.4277SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]4278LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
But4279CCbut
this4280DTthis
Court4281NPCourt
has4282VHZhave
never4283RBnever
definitively4284RBdefinitively
ruled4285VVNrule
on4286INon
the4287DTthe
extent4288NNextent
of4289INof
strict4290JJstrict
liability4291NNliability
crimes4292NNScrime
.4293SENT.
I4294PPI
think4295VVPthink
it4296PPit
could4297MDcould
carve4298VVcarve
that4299IN/thatthat
out4300RBout
.4301SENT.
But4302CCbut
I4303PPI
think4304VVPthink
what4305WPwhat
's4306VBZbe
important4307JJimportant
are4308VBPbe
two4309CDtwo
things4310NNSthing
,4311,,
Justice4312NPJustice
Gorsuch4313NPGorsuch
.4314SENT.
First4315JJfirst
of4316INof
all4317DTall
,4318,,
this4319DTthis
is4320VBZbe
a4321DTa
rarely4322RBrarely
used4323VVNuse
defense4324NNdefense
.4325SENT.
It4326PPit
's4327VBZbe
invoked4328VVNinvoke
in4329INin
less4330JJRless
than4331INthan
one4332CDone
percent4333NNpercent
of4334INof
the4335DTthe
cases4336NNScase
and4337CCand
successful4338JJsuccessful
in4339INin
only4340RBonly
a4341DTa
quarter4342NNquarter
of4343INof
that4344DTthat
.4345SENT.
We4346PPwe
're4347VBPbe
not4348RBnot
talking4349VVGtalk
about4350INabout
a4351DTa
huge4352JJhuge
number4353NNnumber
of4354INof
people4355NNSpeople
.4356SENT.
But4357CCbut
for4358INfor
the4359DTthe
people4360NNSpeople
that4361IN/thatthat
it4362PPit
really4363RBreally
matters4364VVZmatter
,4365,,
there4366EXthere
is4367VBZbe
no4368DTno
mechanism4369NNmechanism
in4370INin
these4371DTthese
states4372NNSstate
to4373TOto
protect4374VVprotect
them4375PPthem
,4376,,
to4377TOto
let4378VVlet
them4379PPthem
be4380VBbe
excused4381VVNexcuse
or4382CCor
to4383TOto
let4384VVlet
the4385DTthe
...4386:...
a4387DTa
jury4388NNjury
consider4389VVconsider
their4390PP$their
actual4391JJactual
culpability4392NNculpability
when4393WRBwhen
they4394PPthey
can4395MDcan
't4396RB't
tap4397VVtap
into4398INinto
their4399PP$their
brains4400NNSbrain
in4401INin
the4402DTthe
way4403NNway
other4404JJother
people's4405NNSpeople's
...4406:...
people4407NNSpeople
can4408MDcan
.4409SENT.
And4410CCand
I4411PPI
think4412VVPthink
jurors4413NNSjuror
are4414VBPbe
able4415JJable
to4416TOto
decide4417VVdecide
that4418DTthat
.4419SENT.
They4420PPthey
decide4421VVPdecide
the4422DTthe
term4423NNterm
"4424``"
reasonableness4425NNreasonableness
"4426''"
all4427PDTall
the4428DTthe
time4429NNtime
.4430SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]4431LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
If4432INif
a4433DTa
state4434NNstate
adopted4435VVDadopt
the4436DTthe
irresistible4437JJirresistible
impulse4438NNimpulse
defense4439NNdefense
,4440,,
would4441MDwould
that4442RBthat
be4443VBbe
unconstitutional4444JJunconstitutional
?4445SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]4446LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
This4447NPThis
Court4448NPCourt
in4449INin
Leland4450NPLeland
said4451VVDsay
that4452IN/thatthat
it4453PPit
is4454VBZbe
not4455RBnot
a4456DTa
constitutional4457JJconstitutional
floor4458NNfloor
.4459SENT.
So4460RBso
,4461,,
no4462UHno
.4463SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]4464LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
No4465NPNo
,4466,,
not4467RBnot
whether4468INwhether
it4469PPit
's4470VBZbe
required4471VVNrequire
,4472,,
but4473CCbut
would4474MDwould
that4475RBthat
be4476VBbe
unconstitutional4477JJunconstitutional
because4478INbecause
it4479PPit
does4480VVZdo
not4481RBnot
ask4482VVask
whether4483INwhether
the4484DTthe
person4485NNperson
knew4486VVDknow
right4487RBright
from4488INfrom
wrong4489JJwrong
?4490SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]4491LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
I4492PPI
think4493VVPthink
,4494,,
yes4495UHyes
,4496,,
it4497PPit
would4498MDwould
...4499:...
it4500PPit
would4501MDwould
also4502RBalso
have4503VHhave
to4504TOto
include4505VVinclude
the4506DTthe
right-and-wrong4507NNright-and-wrong
principle4508NNprinciple
.4509SENT.
I4510PPI
'd4511MDwould
like4512VVlike
to4513TOto
turn4514VVturn
briefly4515RBbriefly
to4516TOto
the4517DTthe
Eighth4518JJeighth
Amendment4519NPAmendment
.4520SENT.
The4521DTthe
original4522JJoriginal
public4523JJpublic
meaning4524NNmeaning
of4525INof
that4526DTthat
term4527NNterm
was4528VBDbe
that4529IN/thatthat
it4530PPit
would4531MDwould
be4532VBbe
cruel4533JJcruel
and4534CCand
unusual4535JJunusual
to4536TOto
punish4537VVpunish
the4538DTthe
insane4539NNinsane
.4540SENT.
In4541INin
18684542CD@card@
,4543,,
with4544INwith
the4545DTthe
Reconstruction4546NNreconstruction
,4547,,
amendments4548NNSamendment
were4549VBDbe
adopted4550VVNadopt
.4551SENT.
Every4552DTevery
single4553JJsingle
jurisdiction4554NNjurisdiction
had4555VHDhave
an4556DTan
insanity4557NNinsanity
defense4558NNdefense
.4559SENT.
And4560CCand
even4561RBeven
if4562INif
you4563PPyou
rewind4564VVPrewind
back4565RBback
to4566TOto
17914567CD@card@
,4568,,
it4569PPit
would4570MDwould
have4571VHhave
been4572VBNbe
cruel4573JJcruel
and4574CCand
unusual4575JJunusual
to4576TOto
punish4577VVpunish
the4578DTthe
insane4579NNinsane
.4580SENT.
They4581PPthey
were4582VBDbe
either4583RBeither
handled4584VVNhandle
outside4585INoutside
of4586INof
the4587DTthe
legal4588JJlegal
process4589NNprocess
or4590CCor
they4591PPthey
were4592VBDbe
allowed4593VVNallow
to4594TOto
come4595VVcome
in4596RPin
and4597CCand
plead4598VVplead
and4599CCand
prove4600VVprove
insanity4601NNinsanity
.4602SENT.
Because4603INbecause
the4604DTthe
Eighth4605JJeighth
Amendment4606NPAmendment
was4607VBDbe
...4608:...
was4609VBDbe
intended4610VVNintend
as4611INas
a4612DTa
check4613NNcheck
on4614INon
sovereign4615JJsovereign
power4616NNpower
,4617,,
states4618NNSstate
are4619VBPbe
simply4620RBsimply
not4621RBnot
free4622JJfree
to4623TOto
legislatively4624RBlegislatively
redefine4625VVredefine
culpability4626NNculpability
in4627INin
a4628DTa
way4629NNway
that4630WDTthat
is4631VBZbe
inconsistent4632JJinconsistent
with4633INwith
history4634NNhistory
and4635CCand
long-standing4636JJlong-standing
practice4637NNpractice
.4638SENT.
But4639CCbut
that4640DTthat
is4641VBZbe
what4642WPwhat
Kansas4643NPKansas
has4644VHZhave
done4645VVNdo
here4646RBhere
.4647SENT.
It4648PPit
is4649VBZbe
an4650DTan
outlier4651NNoutlier
.4652SENT.
It4653PPit
prevents4654VVZprevent
people4655NNSpeople
from4656INfrom
...4657:...
it4658PPit
...4659:...
well4660RBwell
,4661,,
by4662INby
taking4663VVGtake
away4664RPaway
the4665DTthe
mechanism4666NNmechanism
,4667,,
they4668PPthey
ensure4669VVPensure
that4670IN/thatthat
insane4671JJinsane
people4672NNSpeople
will4673MDwill
be4674VBbe
punished4675VVNpunish
in4676INin
their4677PP$their
borders4678NNSborder
.4679SENT.
[JUSTICE GINSBURG]4680LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG]
The4681DTthe
Kansas4682NPKansas
Supreme4683NPSupreme
Court4684NPCourt
did4685VVDdo
n't4686RBn't
reach4687VVreach
that4688DTthat
question4689NNquestion
,4690,,
so4691RBso
you4692PPyou
are4693VBPbe
asking4694VVGask
to4695TOto
...4696:...
us4697PPus
to4698TOto
decide4699VVdecide
it4700PPit
as4701INas
a4702DTa
matter4703NNmatter
of4704INof
first4705JJfirst
impression4706NNimpression
.4707SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]4708LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
No4709NPNo
,4710,,
Justice4711NPJustice
Ginsburg4712NPGinsburg
.4713SENT.
And4714CCand
this4715DTthis
...4716:...
you4717PPyou
know4718VVPknow
,4719,,
was4720VBDbe
vetted4721VVNvet
at4722INat
the4723DTthe
cert4724NNcert
stage4725NNstage
,4726,,
and4727CCand
I4728PPI
would4729MDwould
point4730VVpoint
this4731DTthis
Court4732NNcourt
to4733TOto
the4734DTthe
addendum4735NNaddendum
to4736TOto
...4737:...
at4738INat
our4739PP$our
cert4740NNcert
reply4741NNreply
at4742INat
page4743NNpage
184744CD@card@
and4745CCand
194746CD@card@
,4747,,
because4748INbecause
there4749RBthere
it4750PPit
's4751VBZbe
clear4752JJclear
that4753IN/thatthat
this4754DTthis
notion4755NNnotion
of4756INof
applying4757VVGapply
wrongfulness4758NNwrongfulness
to4759TOto
the4760DTthe
insanity4761NNinsanity
defense4762NNdefense
came4763VVDcome
up4764RPup
at4765INat
oral4766JJoral
argument4767NNargument
,4768,,
was4769VBDbe
argued4770VVNargue
,4771,,
and4772CCand
in4773INin
that4774DTthat
post-argument4775NNpost-argument
memo4776NNmemo
,4777,,
counsel4778NNcounsel
said4779VVDsay
we4780PPwe
believe4781VVPbelieve
that4782IN/thatthat
this4783DTthis
issue4784NNissue
is4785VBZbe
presented4786VVNpresent
.4787SENT.
We4788PPwe
're4789VBPbe
going4790VVGgo
to4791TOto
...4792:...
if4793INif
you4794PPyou
want4795VVPwant
supplemental4796JJsupplemental
briefing4797NNbriefing
,4798,,
we4799PPwe
'll4800MDwill
provide4801VVprovide
it4802PPit
,4803,,
but4804CCbut
we4805PPwe
believe4806VVPbelieve
it4807PPit
is4808VBZbe
an4809DTan
issue4810NNissue
that4811WDTthat
is4812VBZbe
implicit4813JJimplicit
in4814INin
this4815DTthis
Court4816NPCourt
's4817POS's
ruling4818NNruling
.4819SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4820LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
What4821WPWhat
do4822VVPdo
you4823PPyou
do4824VVPdo
with4825INwith
the4826DTthe
statement4827NNstatement
of4828INof
Justice4829NPJustice
Marshall4830NPMarshall
for4831INfor
a4832DTa
plurality4833NNplurality
in4834INin
Powell4835NPPowell
versus4836CCversus
Texas4837NPTexas
?4838SENT?
"4839``"
Nothing4840NNnothing
could4841MDcould
be4842VBbe
less4843RBRless
fruitful4844JJfruitful
than4845INthan
for4846INfor
this4847DTthis
Court4848NPCourt
to4849TOto
be4850VBbe
impelled4851VVNimpel
into4852INinto
defining4853VVGdefine
some4854DTsome
sort4855NNsort
of4856INof
insanity4857NNinsanity
defense4858NNdefense
...4859:...
or4860CCor
insanity4861NNinsanity
test4862NNtest
in4863INin
constitutional4864JJconstitutional
terms4865NNSterm
.4866SENT.
"4867``"
I4868PPI
think4869VVPthink
pointing4870VVGpoint
out4871RPout
the4872DTthe
difficulty4873NNdifficulty
of4874INof
us4875PPus
,4876,,
through4877INthrough
the4878DTthe
Due4879JJdue
Process4880NNprocess
Clause4881NNclause
,4882,,
wading4883VVGwade
into4884INinto
this4885DTthis
policy4886NNpolicy
debate4887NNdebate
and4888CCand
figuring4889VVGfigure
out4890RPout
what4891WPwhat
the4892DTthe
line4893NNline
is4894VBZbe
.4895SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]4896LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Justice4897NPJustice
Kavanaugh4898NPKavanaugh
,4899,,
that4900WDTthat
...4901:...
and4902CCand
Powell4903NPPowell
was4904VBDbe
not4905RBnot
an4906DTan
abolition4907NNabolition
case4908NNcase
,4909,,
first4910JJfirst
of4911INof
all4912DTall
.4913SENT.
But4914CCbut
,4915,,
secondly4916RBsecondly
,4917,,
what4918WPwhat
Justice4919NPJustice
Powell4920NPPowell
said4921VVDsay
there4922EXthere
was4923VBDbe
a4924DTa
reflection4925NNreflection
of4926INof
the4927DTthe
facts4928NNSfact
of4929INof
that4930DTthat
case4931NNcase
.4932SENT.
That4933DTthat
case4934NNcase
had4935VHDhave
to4936TOto
grapple4937VVgrapple
with4938INwith
Leland4939NPLeland
,4940,,
and4941CCand
the4942DTthe
only4943JJonly
mechanism4944NNmechanism
or4945CCor
the4946DTthe
only4947JJonly
test4948NNtest
that4949WDTthat
would4950MDwould
have4951VHhave
applied4952VVNapply
in4953INin
Powell4954NPPowell
is4955VBZbe
an4956DTan
irresistible4957JJirresistible
or4958CCor
compulsion-based4959JJcompulsion-based
test4960NNtest
.4961SENT.
So4962INso
our4963PP$our
standard4964NNstandard
,4965,,
the4966DTthe
right-and-wrong4967NNright-and-wrong
standard4968NNstandard
,4969,,
is4970VBZbe
below4971INbelow
that4972DTthat
.4973SENT.
And4974CCand
it4975PPit
's4976VBZbe
not4977RBnot
a4978DTa
...4979:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4980LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
But4981CCbut
Leland4982NPLeland
in4983INin
turn4984NNturn
said4985VVDsay
...4986:...
noted4987VVDnote
the4988DTthe
wide4989JJwide
disagreement4990NNdisagreement
among4991INamong
different4992JJdifferent
tests4993NNStest
and4994CCand
said4995VVDsay
choice4996NNchoice
of4997INof
a4998DTa
test4999NNtest
involves5000VVZinvolve
not5001RBnot
only5002RBonly
scientific5003JJscientific
knowledge5004NNknowledge
but5005CCbut
questions5006NNSquestion
of5007INof
basic5008JJbasic
policy5009NNpolicy
.5010SENT.
The5011DTthe
whole5012JJwhole
problem5013NNproblem
has5014VHZhave
evoked5015VVNevoke
wide5016JJwide
disagreement5017NNdisagreement
among5018INamong
those5019DTthose
who5020WPwho
have5021VHPhave
studied5022VVNstudy
it5023PPit
,5024,,
which5025WDTwhich
is5026VBZbe
true5027JJtrue
as5028RBas
to5029TOto
this5030DTthis
...5031:...
as5032RBas
to5033TOto
the5034DTthe
Kansas5035NPKansas
approach5036NNapproach
as5037INas
well5038RBwell
.5039SENT.
There5040EXthere
's5041VBZbe
wide5042JJwide
disagreement5043NNdisagreement
,5044,,
but5045CCbut
some5046DTsome
have5047VHPhave
advocated5048VVNadvocate
for5049INfor
that5050DTthat
as5051RBas
well5052RBwell
.5053SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]5054LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Well5055UHWell
,5056,,
Leland5057NPLeland
also5058RBalso
recognized5059VVDrecognize
the5060DTthe
right-and-wrong5061NNright-and-wrong
principle5062NNprinciple
was5063VBDbe
the5064DTthe
majority5065NNmajority
test5066NNtest
in5067INin
the5068DTthe
majority5069NNmajority
of5070INof
jurisdictions5071NNSjurisdiction
.5072SENT.
And5073CCand
that5074WDTthat
holds5075VVZhold
true5076JJtrue
today5077NNtoday
because5078INbecause
485079CD@card@
jurisdictions5080NNSjurisdiction
have5081VHPhave
retained5082VVNretain
this5083DTthis
baseline5084JJbaseline
principle5085NNprinciple
.5086SENT.
And5087CCand
we5088PPwe
're5089VBPbe
not5090RBnot
...5091:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5092LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Are5093NPAre
...5094:...
are5095VBPbe
all5096DTall
485097CD@card@
constitutional5098JJconstitutional
?5099SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]5100LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
If5101INif
they5102PPthey
have5103VHPhave
the5104DTthe
right-and-wrong5105NNright-and-wrong
principle5106NNprinciple
,5107,,
they5108PPthey
are5109VBPbe
.5110SENT.
Yes5111UHyes
.5112SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5113LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Is5114VBZbe
that5115IN/thatthat
a5116DTa
yes5117NNyes
?5118SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]5119LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Yes5120NPYes
,5121,,
I5122PPI
'm5123VBPbe
sorry5124JJsorry
.5125SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5126LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
All5127DTall
485128CD@card@
are5129VBPbe
constitutional5130JJconstitutional
?5131SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]5132LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Yes5133NPYes
.5134SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]5135LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Justice5136NPJustice
Marshall's5137NPMarshall's
...5138:...
Justice5139NPJustice
Marshall5140NPMarshall
's5141POS's
statement5142NNstatement
in5143INin
Powell5144NPPowell
was5145VBDbe
not5146RBnot
limited5147VVNlimit
in5148INin
the5149DTthe
way5150NNway
that5151IN/thatthat
you5152PPyou
suggest5153VVPsuggest
.5154SENT.
It5155PPit
was5156VBDbe
categorical5157JJcategorical
.5158SENT.
And5159CCand
he5160PPhe
was5161VBDbe
joined5162VVNjoin
by5163INby
Chief5164NPChief
Justice5165NPJustice
Warren5166NPWarren
,5167,,
Justice5168NPJustice
Black5169NPBlack
,5170,,
and5171CCand
Justice5172NPJustice
Harlan5173NPHarlan
in5174INin
saying5175VVGsay
that5176DTthat
.5177SENT.
So5178RBso
they5179PPthey
were5180VBDbe
all5181RBall
wrong5182JJwrong
at5183INat
that5184DTthat
time5185NNtime
?5186SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]5187LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Mr5188NPMr
.5189SENT.
Chief5190NPChief
Justice5191NPJustice
?5192SENT?
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5193LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Briefly5194NNbriefly
.5195SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]5196LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Okay5197NPOkay
.5198SENT.
Justice5199NPJustice
Alito5200NPAlito
,5201,,
it5202PPit
's5203VBZbe
not5204RBnot
that5205IN/thatthat
they5206PPthey
were5207VBDbe
wrong5208JJwrong
;5209:;
it5210PPit
's5211VBZbe
just5212RBjust
they5213PPthey
were5214VBDbe
talking5215VVGtalk
about5216INabout
a5217DTa
different5218JJdifferent
scenario5219NNscenario
,5220,,
a5221DTa
non-abolition5222NNnon-abolition
case5223NNcase
dealing5224VVGdeal
with5225INwith
a5226DTa
test5227NNtest
that5228WDTthat
is5229VBZbe
north5230RBnorth
of5231INof
our5232PP$our
standard5233NNstandard
.5234SENT.
Thank5235VVthank
you5236PPyou
.5237SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5238LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Thank5239VVthank
you5240PPyou
,5241,,
counsel5242NNcounsel
.5243SENT.
Mr5244NPMr
.5245SENT.
Crouse5246NPCrouse
.5247SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]5248LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Mr5249NPMr
.5250SENT.
Chief5251NPChief
Justice5252NPJustice
,5253,,
and5254CCand
may5255MDmay
it5256PPit
please5257VVplease
the5258DTthe
Court5259NPCourt
:5260::
Petitioner5261NNpetitioner
asked5262VVDask
this5263DTthis
Court5264NPCourt
to5265TOto
define5266VVdefine
a5267DTa
rule5268NNrule
of5269INof
insanity5270NNinsanity
and5271CCand
to5272TOto
require5273VVrequire
the5274DTthe
states5275NNSstate
to5276TOto
implement5277VVimplement
that5278DTthat
rule5279NNrule
in5280INin
its5281PP$its
criminal5282JJcriminal
justice5283NNjustice
proceedings5284NNSproceeding
.5285SENT.
But5286CCbut
,5287,,
as5288INas
this5289DTthis
Court5290NPCourt
indicated5291VVDindicate
in5292INin
Powell5293NPPowell
,5294,,
nearly5295RBnearly
505296CD@card@
years5297NNSyear
ago5298RBago
,5299,,
nothing5300NNnothing
would5301MDwould
be5302VBbe
less5303RBRless
fruitful5304JJfruitful
than5305INthan
for5306INfor
this5307DTthis
Court5308NPCourt
to5309TOto
select5310VVselect
a5311DTa
rigid5312JJrigid
rule5313NNrule
of5314INof
constitutional5315JJconstitutional
law5316NNlaw
of5317INof
insanity5318NNinsanity
.5319SENT.
And5320CCand
that5321DTthat
admonition5322NNadmonition
rings5323VVZring
as5324INas
true5325JJtrue
today5326NNtoday
as5327INas
it5328PPit
did5329VVDdo
505330CD@card@
years5331NNSyear
ago5332RBago
.5333SENT.
The5334DTthe
first5335JJfirst
thing5336NNthing
I5337PPI
'd5338MDwould
like5339VVlike
to5340TOto
talk5341VVtalk
about5342RBabout
is5343VBZbe
that5344IN/thatthat
it5345PPit
's5346VBZbe
not5347RBnot
deeply5348RBdeeply
rooted5349VVNroot
.5350SENT.
The5351DTthe
right5352NNright
versus5353INversus
wrong5354JJwrong
test5355NNtest
is5356VBZbe
a5357DTa
relatively5358RBrelatively
recent5359JJrecent
vintage5360NNvintage
.5361SENT.
The5362DTthe
historical5363JJhistorical
basis5364NNbasis
for5365INfor
it5366PPit
started5367VVDstart
somewhere5368RBsomewhere
around5369INaround
the5370DTthe
1800s5371JJ1800s
;5372:;
and5373CCand
,5374,,
therefore5375RBtherefore
,5376,,
it5377PPit
's5378VBZbe
not5379RBnot
deeply5380RBdeeply
rooted5381VVNroot
.5382SENT.
In5383INin
addition5384NNaddition
,5385,,
the5386DTthe
states5387NNSstate
have5388VHPhave
had5389VHNhave
historical5390JJhistorical
and5391CCand
traditional5392JJtraditional
discretion5393NNdiscretion
to5394TOto
both5395CCboth
define5396VVdefine
the5397DTthe
elements5398NNSelement
of5399INof
the5400DTthe
criminal5401JJcriminal
law5402NNlaw
,5403,,
the5404DTthe
defenses5405NNSdefense
that5406WDTthat
are5407VBPbe
available5408JJavailable
in5409INin
those5410DTthose
criminal5411JJcriminal
justice5412NNjustice
proceedings5413NNSproceeding
,5414,,
and5415CCand
the5416DTthe
substantive5417JJsubstantive
rules5418NNSrule
at5419INat
which5420WDTwhich
those5421DTthose
defenses5422NNSdefense
and5423CCand
elements5424NNSelement
are5425VBPbe
met5426VVNmeet
.5427SENT.
And5428CCand
consistent5429JJconsistent
with5430INwith
that5431DTthat
discretion5432NNdiscretion
,5433,,
the5434DTthe
State5435NPState
of5436INof
Kansas5437NPKansas
has5438VHZhave
a5439DTa
holistic5440JJholistic
approach5441NNapproach
to5442TOto
the5443DTthe
mental5444JJmental
illness5445NNillness
problem5446NNproblem
starting5447VVGstart
at5448INat
the5449DTthe
time5450NNtime
the5451DTthe
criminal5452JJcriminal
justice5453NNjustice
proceeding5454NNproceeding
is5455VBZbe
initiated5456VVNinitiate
,5457,,
throughout5458INthroughout
the5459DTthe
guilt5460NNguilt
phase5461NNphase
,5462,,
as5463RBas
well5464RBwell
as5465INas
in5466INin
the5467DTthe
punishment5468NNpunishment
phase5469NNphase
,5470,,
and5471CCand
continuing5472VVGcontinue
on5473RPon
even5474RBeven
with5475INwith
regard5476NNregard
to5477TOto
the5478DTthe
sentence5479NNsentence
as5480INas
it5481PPit
's5482VBZbe
carried5483VVNcarry
out5484RPout
,5485,,
whether5486INwhether
being5487VBGbe
in5488INin
a5489DTa
prison5490NNprison
or5491CCor
in5492INin
a5493DTa
mental5494JJmental
hospital5495NNhospital
.5496SENT.
These5497DTthese
factors5498NNSfactor
confirm5499VVPconfirm
that5500IN/thatthat
Petitioner5501NNpetitioner
has5502VHZhave
not5503RBnot
carried5504VVNcarry
the5505DTthe
heavy5506JJheavy
burden5507NNburden
to5508TOto
identify5509VVidentify
a5510DTa
single5511JJsingle
rule5512NNrule
that5513WDTthat
is5514VBZbe
clearly5515RBclearly
established5516VVNestablish
and5517CCand
required5518VVNrequire
by5519INby
the5520DTthe
fundamental5521JJfundamental
elements5522NNSelement
of5523INof
due5524JJdue
process5525NNprocess
.5526SENT.
And5527CCand
for5528INfor
that5529DTthat
reason5530NNreason
,5531,,
we5532PPwe
believe5533VVPbelieve
that5534IN/thatthat
the5535DTthe
state5536NNstate
supreme5537JJsupreme
court5538NNcourt
judgment5539NNjudgment
in5540INin
Kansas5541NPKansas
should5542MDshould
be5543VBbe
affirmed5544VVNaffirm
.5545SENT.
And5546CCand
so5547RBso
unless5548INunless
there5549EXthere
are5550VBPbe
additional5551JJadditional
questions5552NNSquestion
this5553DTthis
Court5554NPCourt
would5555MDwould
have5556VHhave
,5557,,
I'd5558NPI'd
...5559:...
I5560PPI
'd5561MDwould
like5562VVlike
to5563TOto
first5564RBfirst
turn5565VVturn
to5566TOto
the5567DTthe
answer5568NNanswer
of5569INof
Justice5570NPJustice
Alito5571NPAlito
's5572POS's
question5573NNquestion
,5574,,
and5575CCand
the5576DTthe
answer5577NNanswer
is5578VBZbe
the5579DTthe
right-and-wrong5580NNright-and-wrong
test5581NNtest
has5582VHZhave
multiple5583JJmultiple
components5584NNScomponent
.5585SENT.
There5586EXthere
is5587VBZbe
no5588DTno
consistent5589JJconsistent
element5590NNelement
or5591CCor
definition5592NNdefinition
of5593INof
how5594WRBhow
that5595DTthat
's5596VBZbe
applied5597VVNapply
in5598INin
any5599DTany
of5600INof
the5601DTthe
465602CD@card@
jurisdictions5603NNSjurisdiction
.5604SENT.
As5605INas
our5606PP$our
brief5607JJbrief
points5608NNSpoint
out5609RBout
,5610,,
there5611EXthere
are5612VBPbe
a5613DTa
host5614NNhost
of5615INof
different5616JJdifferent
factions5617NNSfaction
and5618CCand
different5619JJdifferent
ways5620NNSway
in5621INin
which5622WDTwhich
those5623DTthose
elements5624NNSelement
would5625MDwould
be5626VBbe
met5627VVNmeet
,5628,,
and5629CCand
we5630PPwe
think5631VVPthink
that5632IN/thatthat
,5633,,
in5634INin
and5635CCand
of5636INof
itself5637PPitself
,5638,,
undermines5639VVZundermine
the5640DTthe
constitutional5641JJconstitutional
floor5642NNfloor
that5643IN/thatthat
Petitioner5644NNpetitioner
seeks5645VVZseek
...5646:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5647LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
Mr5648NPMr
.5649SENT.
Crouse5650NPCrouse
...5651:...
[MR. CROUSE]5652LOC[MR. CROUSE]
...5653:...
to5654TOto
have5655VHhave
US5656NPUS
...5657:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5658LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
I5659PPI
...5660:...
I5661PPI
understand5662VVPunderstand
what5663WPwhat
you5664PPyou
're5665VBPbe
saying5666VVGsay
,5667,,
but5668CCbut
I5669PPI
have5670VHPhave
a5671DTa
problem5672NNproblem
because5673INbecause
,5674,,
as5675INas
I5676PPI
understand5677VVPunderstand
the5678DTthe
mens5679NPmens
rea5680NPrea
test5681NNtest
,5682,,
it5683PPit
takes5684VVZtake
away5685RBaway
excusing5686VVGexcuse
a5687DTa
person5688NNperson
who5689WPwho
,5690,,
from5691INfrom
the5692DTthe
155693CD@card@
...5694:...
1400s5695NP1400s
,5696,,
would5697MDwould
have5698VHhave
been5699VBNbe
considered5700VVNconsider
a5701DTa
lunatic5702NNlunatic
,5703,,
a5704DTa
person5705NNperson
who5706WPwho
hears5707VVZhear
voices5708NNSvoice
and5709CCand
the5710DTthe
voices5711NNSvoice
tell5712VVPtell
him5713PPhim
or5714CCor
her5715PPher
what5716WPwhat
to5717TOto
do5718VVdo
,5719,,
and5720CCand
they5721PPthey
have5722VHPhave
no5723DTno
volition5724NNvolition
to5725TOto
fight5726VVfight
back5727RBback
.5728SENT.
They5729PPthey
...5730:...
many5731JJmany
of5732INof
them5733PPthem
know5734VVPknow
they5735PPthey
're5736VBPbe
killing5737VVGkill
somebody5738NNsomebody
.5739SENT.
So5740INso
intent5741NNintent
under5742INunder
your5743PP$your
mens5744NPmens
rea5745NPrea
test5746NNtest
is5747VBZbe
met5748VVNmeet
.5749SENT.
They5750PPthey
absolutely5751RBabsolutely
know5752VVPknow
they5753PPthey
're5754VBPbe
killing5755VVGkill
someone5756NNsomeone
;5757:;
they5758PPthey
just5759RBjust
have5760VHPhave
no5761DTno
ability5762NNability
to5763TOto
say5764VVsay
no5765RBno
.5766SENT.
They5767PPthey
...5768:...
they5769PPthey
do5770VVPdo
n't5771RBn't
...5772:...
they5773PPthey
can5774MDcan
't5775RB't
because5776INbecause
of5777INof
their5778PP$their
either5779RBeither
mental5780JJmental
illness5781NNillness
...5782:...
lunacy5783NNlunacy
,5784,,
all5785RBall
of5786INof
the5787DTthe
wild5788JJwild
beast5789NNbeast
things5790NNSthing
,5791,,
all5792RBall
of5793INof
...5794:...
yes5795UHyes
,5796,,
they5797PPthey
have5798VHPhave
two5799CDtwo
components5800NNScomponent
,5801,,
some5802DTsome
volition5803NNvolition
and5804CCand
some5805DTsome
not5806RBnot
,5807,,
but5808CCbut
for5809INfor
centuries5810NNScentury
,5811,,
that5812DTthat
concept5813NNconcept
of5814INof
no5815DTno
volition5816NNvolition
,5817,,
the5818DTthe
true5819JJtrue
lunatic5820NNlunatic
,5821,,
would5822MDwould
get5823VVget
off5824RPoff
.5825SENT.
Your5826PP$your
test5827NNtest
does5828VVZdo
n't5829RBn't
do5830VVdo
that5831DTthat
.5832SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]5833LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Well5834UHwell
,5835,,
it5836PPit
...5837:...
it5838PPit
does5839VVZdo
.5840SENT.
And5841CCand
so5842INso
our5843PP$our
test5844NNtest
is5845VBZbe
...5846:...
is5847VBZbe
relatively5848RBrelatively
consistent5849JJconsistent
with5850INwith
the5851DTthe
cognitive5852JJcognitive
capacity5853NNcapacity
test5854NNtest
.5855SENT.
There5856EXthere
's5857VBZbe
a5858DTa
volitional5859JJvolitional
,5860,,
there5861EXthere
's5862VBZbe
a5863DTa
moral5864JJmoral
test5865NNtest
,5866,,
and5867CCand
then5868RBthen
there5869EXthere
's5870VBZbe
the5871DTthe
product5872NNproduct
test5873NNtest
.5874SENT.
And5875CCand
so5876INso
we5877PPwe
...5878:...
we5879PPwe
would5880MDwould
view5881VVview
our5882PP$our
test5883NNtest
as5884INas
consistent5885JJconsistent
with5886INwith
the5887DTthe
cognitive5888JJcognitive
test5889NNtest
.5890SENT.
And5891CCand
if5892INif
the5893DTthe
individual5894JJindividual
can5895MDcan
't5896RB't
formulate5897VVformulate
the5898DTthe
in5899RPin
...5900:...
criminal5901JJcriminal
intent5902NNintent
in5903INin
Kansas5904NPKansas
,5905,,
that5906WDTthat
...5907:...
that5908WDTthat
is5909VBZbe
a5910DTa
sufficient5911JJsufficient
defense5912NNdefense
.5913SENT.
And5914CCand
that5915WDTthat
has5916VHZhave
been5917VBNbe
...5918:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5919LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
But5920CCbut
that5921DTthat
's5922VBZbe
not5923RBnot
how5924WRBhow
I5925PPI
read5926VVPread
your5927PP$your
charge5928NNcharge
.5929SENT.
And5930CCand
when5931WRBwhen
I5932PPI
read5933VVPread
the5934DTthe
charge5935NNcharge
here5936RBhere
,5937,,
it5938PPit
does5939VVZdo
n't5940RBn't
talk5941VVtalk
...5942:...
you5943PPyou
're5944VBPbe
talking5945VVGtalk
the5946DTthe
very5947JJvery
language5948NNlanguage
that5949IN/thatthat
your5950PP$your
adversary5951NNadversary
is5952VBZbe
suggesting5953VVGsuggest
you5954PPyou
should5955MDshould
adopt5956VVadopt
.5957SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]5958LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Yeah5959NPYeah
.5960SENT.
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5961LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
But5962CCbut
it5963PPit
's5964VBZbe
not5965RBnot
part5966NNpart
of5967INof
the5968DTthe
mens5969NPmens
rea5970NPrea
test5971NNtest
.5972SENT.
The5973DTthe
strict5974JJstrict
mens5975NPmens
rea5976NPrea
test5977NNtest
now5978RBnow
is5979VBZbe
do5980VVdo
you5981PPyou
intend5982VVPintend
to5983TOto
...5984:...
do5985VVPdo
you5986PPyou
know5987VVPknow
what5988WPwhat
you5989PPyou
're5990VBPbe
doing5991VVGdo
?5992SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]5993LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Do5994VVPdo
you5995PPyou
have5996VHPhave
criminal5997JJcriminal
intent5998NNintent
,5999,,
that6000WDTthat
's6001VBZbe
right6002JJright
.6003SENT.
I6004PPI
...6005:...
I6006PPI
...6007:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6008LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
No6009NPNo
,6010,,
no6011RBno
...6012:...
[MR. CROUSE]6013LOC[MR. CROUSE]
What6014WPWhat
I6015PPI
...6016:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6017LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
...6018:...
there6019EXthere
's6020VBZbe
not6021RBnot
...6022:...
yes6023UHyes
,6024,,
you6025PPyou
're6026VBPbe
...6027:...
you6028PPyou
're6029VBPbe
adding6030VVGadd
a6031DTa
volition6032NNvolition
.6033SENT.
But6034CCbut
what6035WPwhat
I6036PPI
'm6037VBPbe
saying6038VVGsay
is6039VBZbe
your6040PP$your
...6041:...
this6042DTthis
test6043NNtest
standing6044NNstanding
alone6045RBalone
does6046VVZdo
n't6047RBn't
do6048VVdo
that6049DTthat
.6050SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]6051LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So6052RBso
,6053,,
as6054INas
I6055PPI
...6056:...
I6057PPI
understand6058VVPunderstand
Petitioner6059NNpetitioner
's6060POS's
test6061NNtest
,6062,,
is6063VBZbe
they6064PPthey
want6065VVPwant
to6066TOto
ask6067VVask
the6068DTthe
question6069NNquestion
of6070INof
whether6071INwhether
or6072CCor
not6073RBnot
the6074DTthe
individual6075NNindividual
knows6076VVZknow
that6077IN/thatthat
it6078PPit
's6079VBZbe
either6080RBeither
legally6081RBlegally
or6082CCor
morally6083RBmorally
right6084JJright
versus6085CCversus
wrong6086JJwrong
.6087SENT.
What6088WPWhat
Kansas6089NPKansas
does6090VVZdo
is6091VBZbe
,6092,,
if6093INif
you6094PPyou
have6095VHPhave
criminal6096JJcriminal
intent6097NNintent
,6098,,
you6099PPyou
are6100VBPbe
responsible6101JJresponsible
.6102SENT.
But6103CCbut
...6104:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6105LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
Well6106UHwell
,6107,,
I6108PPI
think6109VVPthink
there6110RBthere
...6111:...
[MR. CROUSE]6112LOC[MR. CROUSE]
...6113:...
after6114INafter
conviction6115NNconviction
then6116RBthen
you6117PPyou
have6118VHPhave
the6119DTthe
opportunity6120NNopportunity
to6121TOto
assert6122VVassert
a6123DTa
right6124NNright
versus6125INversus
wrong6126JJwrong
test6127NNtest
.6128SENT.
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6129LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
Well6130UHWell
,6131,,
but6132CCbut
that6133DTthat
's6134VBZbe
the6135DTthe
point6136NNpoint
,6137,,
which6138WDTwhich
is6139VBZbe
that6140DTthat
issue6141NNissue
,6142,,
which6143WDTwhich
is6144VBZbe
after6145INafter
conviction6146NNconviction
.6147SENT.
What6148WPWhat
she6149PPshe
's6150VHZhave
been6151VBNbe
arguing6152VVGargue
is6153VBZbe
that6154IN/thatthat
since6155INsince
the6156DTthe
beginning6157NNbeginning
of6158INof
time6159NNtime
,6160,,
both6161CCboth
under6162INunder
English6163JJEnglish
law6164NNlaw
and6165CCand
at6166INat
the6167DTthe
time6168NNtime
of6169INof
the6170DTthe
founding6171NNfounding
,6172,,
all6173PDTall
the6174DTthe
states6175NNSstate
then6176RBthen
...6177:...
and6178CCand
,6179,,
frankly6180RBfrankly
,6181,,
until6182INuntil
I6183PPI
think6184VVPthink
the6185DTthe
1970s6186NNS1970s
...6187:...
all6188DTall
506189CD@card@
states6190NNSstate
did6191VVDdo
n't6192RBn't
make6193VVmake
it6194PPit
a6195DTa
subject6196NNsubject
of6197INof
sentencing6198NNsentencing
.6199SENT.
They6200PPthey
made6201VVDmake
it6202PPit
a6203DTa
reason6204NNreason
for6205INfor
why6206WRBwhy
you6207PPyou
should6208MDshould
be6209VBbe
excused6210VVNexcuse
from6211INfrom
your6212PP$your
conduct6213NNconduct
...6214:...
for6215INfor
your6216PP$your
conduct6217NNconduct
.6218SENT.
You6219PPyou
're6220VBPbe
saying6221VVGsay
the6222DTthe
same6223JJsame
thing6224NNthing
with6225INwith
something6226NNsomething
like6227INlike
duress6228NNduress
:6229::
I6230PPI
intend6231VVPintend
to6232TOto
kill6233VVkill
someone6234NNsomeone
,6235,,
but6236CCbut
it6237PPit
's6238VBZbe
because6239INbecause
somebody6240NNsomebody
is6241VBZbe
holding6242VVGhold
a6243DTa
gun6244NNgun
to6245TOto
my6246PP$my
head6247NNhead
.6248SENT.
All6249DTall
506250CD@card@
states6251NNSstate
would6252MDwould
let6253VVlet
you6254PPyou
off6255RPoff
.6256SENT.
But6257CCbut
you6258PPyou
're6259VBPbe
now6260RBnow
saying6261VVGsay
it6262PPit
's6263VBZbe
okay6264JJokay
to6265TOto
stigmatize6266VVstigmatize
you6267PPyou
with6268INwith
a6269DTa
criminal6270JJcriminal
conviction6271NNconviction
even6272RBeven
though6273RBthough
,6274,,
in6275INin
fact6276NNfact
,6277,,
you6278PPyou
may6279MDmay
be6280VBbe
insane6281JJinsane
.6282SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]6283LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I6284PPI
'm6285VBPbe
saying6286VVGsay
what6287WPwhat
the6288DTthe
state6289NNstate
of6290INof
Kansas6291NPKansas
has6292VHZhave
done6293VVNdo
is6294VBZbe
it6295PPit
has6296VHZhave
defined6297VVNdefine
its6298PP$its
mental6299JJmental
illness6300NNillness
defense6301NNdefense
consistent6302JJconsistent
with6303INwith
what6304WPwhat
the6305DTthe
historical6306JJhistorical
teachings6307NNSteaching
are6308VBPbe
,6309,,
dating6310VVGdate
back6311RBback
to6312TOto
Blackstone6313NPBlackstone
,6314,,
going6315VVGgo
all6316PDTall
the6317DTthe
way6318NNway
up6319RBup
to6320TOto
the6321DTthe
19106322CD@card@
,6323,,
I6324PPI
believe6325VVPbelieve
it6326PPit
was6327VBDbe
Professor6328NPProfessor
...6329:...
Dean6330NPDean
Orville6331NPOrville
Morris6332NPMorris
indicated6333VVDindicate
that6334IN/thatthat
up6335RBup
until6336INuntil
the6337DTthe
19th6338JJ19th
Century6339NNcentury
,6340,,
that6341DTthat
being6342JJbeing
M'Naghten6343NNM'Naghten
,6344,,
criminal6345JJcriminal
intent6346NNintent
was6347VBDbe
what6348WPwhat
handled6349VVDhandle
everything6350NNeverything
with6351INwith
regard6352NNregard
to6353TOto
criminal6354JJcriminal
insanity6355NNinsanity
.6356SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]6357LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
So6358RBso
,6359,,
General6360NPGeneral
Crouse6361NPCrouse
,6362,,
could6363MDcould
you6364PPyou
assume6365VVassume
for6366INfor
a6367DTa
moment6368NNmoment
that6369IN/thatthat
I6370PPI
disagree6371VVPdisagree
with6372INwith
you6373PPyou
on6374INon
the6375DTthe
reading6376NNreading
of6377INof
the6378DTthe
historical6379JJhistorical
record6380NNrecord
?6381SENT?
And6382CCand
just6383RBjust
let6384VVlet
's6385VBZbe
say6386VVsay
that6387IN/thatthat
the6388DTthe
historical6389JJhistorical
record6390NNrecord
actually6391RBactually
...6392:...
that6393IN/thatthat
there6394EXthere
's6395VBZbe
much6396RBmuch
more6397JJRmore
evidence6398NNevidence
than6399INthan
you6400PPyou
are6401VBPbe
suggesting6402VVGsuggest
that6403IN/thatthat
a6404DTa
defendant6405NNdefendant
had6406VHDhave
to6407TOto
have6408VHhave
a6409DTa
guilty6410JJguilty
mind6411NNmind
,6412,,
meaning6413VVGmean
an6414DTan
understanding6415NNunderstanding
that6416IN/thatthat
what6417WPwhat
he6418PPhe
was6419VBDbe
doing6420VVGdo
was6421VBDbe
immoral6422JJimmoral
,6423,,
as6424RBas
well6425RBwell
as6426INas
the6427DTthe
inability6428NNinability
to6429TOto
form6430VVform
specific6431JJspecific
criminal6432JJcriminal
intent6433NNintent
.6434SENT.
And6435CCand
if6436INif
...6437:...
if6438INif
that6439WDTthat
's6440VBZbe
the6441DTthe
case6442NNcase
,6443,,
if6444INif
you6445PPyou
look6446VVPlook
at6447INat
the6448DTthe
...6449:...
all6450PDTall
the6451DTthe
cases6452NNScase
and6453CCand
say6454VVPsay
,6455,,
you6456PPyou
know6457VVPknow
,6458,,
case6459NNcase
after6460INafter
case6461NNcase
after6462INafter
case6463NNcase
what6464WPwhat
they6465PPthey
're6466VBPbe
talking6467VVGtalk
about6468RBabout
is6469VBZbe
something6470RBsomething
more6471JJRmore
than6472INthan
criminal6473JJcriminal
intent6474NNintent
,6475,,
what6476WPwhat
they6477PPthey
're6478VBPbe
talking6479VVGtalk
about6480RBabout
is6481VBZbe
some6482DTsome
kind6483NNkind
of6484INof
moral6485JJmoral
understanding6486NNunderstanding
,6487,,
if6488INif
that6489WDTthat
's6490VBZbe
the6491DTthe
case6492NNcase
what6493WDTwhat
's6494VBZbe
your6495PP$your
best6496JJSgood
argument6497NNargument
that6498IN/thatthat
you6499PPyou
should6500MDshould
win6501VVwin
?6502SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]6503LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So6504INso
I6505PPI
think6506VVPthink
I6507PPI
have6508VHPhave
three6509CDthree
.6510SENT.
The6511DTthe
first6512JJfirst
one6513CDone
is6514VBZbe
the6515DTthe
existence6516NNexistence
of6517INof
strict6518JJstrict
liability6519NNliability
.6520SENT.
The6521DTthe
second6522NNsecond
would6523MDwould
be6524VBbe
the6525DTthe
existence6526NNexistence
of6527INof
corporate6528JJcorporate
liability6529NNliability
.6530SENT.
And6531CCand
,6532,,
third6533JJthird
,6534,,
I6535PPI
think6536VVPthink
there6537EXthere
's6538VBZbe
just6539RBjust
the6540DTthe
general6541JJgeneral
understanding6542NNunderstanding
that6543IN/thatthat
criminal6544JJcriminal
intent6545NNintent
has6546VHZhave
always6547RBalways
been6548VBNbe
separated6549VVNseparate
from6550INfrom
moral6551NNmoral
and6552CCand
...6553:...
moral6554JJmoral
capacity6555NNcapacity
.6556SENT.
And6557CCand
even6558RBeven
with6559INwith
regard6560NNregard
to6561TOto
...6562:...
I6563PPI
think6564VVPthink
the6565DTthe
hypothetical6566JJhypothetical
you6567PPyou
have6568VHPhave
suggested6569VVNsuggest
,6570,,
I6571PPI
think6572VVPthink
we6573PPwe
would6574MDwould
have6575VHhave
to6576TOto
know6577VVknow
whether6578INwhether
or6579CCor
not6580RBnot
the6581DTthe
right6582NNright
versus6583INversus
wrong6584JJwrong
test6585NNtest
is6586VBZbe
being6587VBGbe
defined6588VVNdefine
in6589INin
a6590DTa
legal6591JJlegal
sense6592NNsense
or6593CCor
a6594DTa
moral6595JJmoral
sense6596NNsense
.6597SENT.
And6598CCand
even6599RBeven
if6600INif
so6601RBso
,6602,,
the6603DTthe
states6604NNSstate
that6605WDTthat
have6606VHPhave
adopted6607VVNadopt
the6608DTthe
right6609NNright
versus6610INversus
wrong6611JJwrong
test6612NNtest
have6613VHPhave
variations6614NNSvariation
within6615INwithin
them6616PPthem
.6617SENT.
Some6618RBsome
,6619,,
for6620INfor
example6621NNexample
,6622,,
like6623INlike
the6624DTthe
federal6625JJfederal
government6626NNgovernment
,6627,,
to6628TOto
my6629PP$my
understanding6630NNunderstanding
,6631,,
would6632MDwould
require6633VVrequire
a6634DTa
severe6635JJsevere
mental6636JJmental
illness6637NNillness
.6638SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]6639LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
You6640PPyou
know6641VVPknow
,6642,,
I6643PPI
guess6644VVPguess
I6645PPI
...6646:...
I6647PPI
understand6648VVPunderstand
that6649IN/thatthat
there6650EXthere
are6651VBPbe
some6652DTsome
variations6653NNSvariation
in6654INin
the6655DTthe
historical6656JJhistorical
record6657NNrecord
and6658CCand
even6659RBeven
in6660INin
states6661NNSstate
now6662RBnow
,6663,,
but6664CCbut
...6665:...
but6666CCbut
there6667EXthere
are6668VBPbe
some6669DTsome
number6670NNnumber
of6671INof
states6672NNSstate
,6673,,
a6674DTa
great6675JJgreat
number6676NNnumber
,6677,,
466678CD@card@
states6679NNSstate
,6680,,
486681CD@card@
states6682NNSstate
,6683,,
whatever6684WDTwhatever
it6685PPit
is6686VBZbe
,6687,,
that6688WDTthat
go6689VVPgo
further6690JJRfurther
than6691INthan
you6692PPyou
do6693VVPdo
in6694INin
terms6695NNSterm
of6696INof
saying6697VVGsay
something6698NNsomething
more6699JJRmore
is6700VBZbe
required6701VVNrequire
than6702INthan
the6703DTthe
mere6704JJmere
capacity6705NNcapacity
to6706TOto
...6707:...
to6708TOto
formulate6709VVformulate
criminal6710JJcriminal
intent6711NNintent
,6712,,
and6713CCand
that6714IN/thatthat
that6715DTthat
something6716NNsomething
more6717RBRmore
in6718INin
large6719JJlarge
measure6720NNmeasure
is6721VBZbe
some6722DTsome
ability6723NNability
to6724TOto
...6725:...
to6726TOto
...6727:...
to6728TOto
make6729VVmake
moral6730JJmoral
judgments6731NNSjudgment
and6732CCand
to6733TOto
distinguish6734VVdistinguish
between6735INbetween
right6736NNright
and6737CCand
wrong6738JJwrong
.6739SENT.
And6740CCand
,6741,,
again6742RBagain
,6743,,
let6744VVPlet
's6745VBZbe
just6746RBjust
assume6747VVassume
that6748DTthat
...6749:...
that6750IN/thatthat
that6751DTthat
's6752VBZbe
what6753WPwhat
the6754DTthe
historical6755JJhistorical
record6756NNrecord
said6757VVDsay
.6758SENT.
I6759PPI
know6760VVPknow
you6761PPyou
do6762VVPdo
n't6763RBn't
agree6764VVagree
with6765INwith
that6766DTthat
.6767SENT.
But6768CCbut
let6769VVlet
's6770VBZbe
assume6771VVassume
that6772IN/thatthat
that6773DTthat
's6774VBZbe
what6775WPwhat
the6776DTthe
historical6777JJhistorical
record6778NNrecord
indicated6779VVDindicate
.6780SENT.
Could6781MDcould
you6782PPyou
still6783RBstill
win6784VVwin
and6785CCand
why6786WRBwhy
?6787SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]6788LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I6789PPI
...6790:...
I6791PPI
could6792MDcould
because6793INbecause
of6794INof
the6795DTthe
nature6796NNnature
of6797INof
this6798DTthis
Court6799NPCourt
's6800POS's
inquiry6801NNinquiry
.6802SENT.
This6803DTthis
Court6804NPCourt
has6805VHZhave
to6806TOto
...6807:...
I6808PPI
'm6809VBPbe
sorry6810JJsorry
,6811,,
Petitioner6812NNpetitioner
has6813VHZhave
to6814TOto
satisfy6815VVsatisfy
a6816DTa
high6817JJhigh
burden6818NNburden
to6819TOto
identify6820VVidentify
a6821DTa
particular6822JJparticular
rule6823NNrule
that6824IN/thatthat
the6825DTthe
absence6826NNabsence
of6827INof
which6828WDTwhich
Kansas6829NPKansas
law6830NNlaw
would6831MDwould
constitute6832VVconstitute
a6833DTa
violation6834NNviolation
of6835INof
a6836DTa
deeply-rooted6837JJdeeply-rooted
rule6838NNrule
.6839SENT.
And6840CCand
that6841WDTthat
simply6842RBsimply
does6843VVZdo
n't6844RBn't
exist6845VVexist
based6846VVNbase
upon6847INupon
the6848DTthe
very6849JJvery
generalities6850NNSgenerality
that6851IN/thatthat
we6852PPwe
've6853VHPhave
talked6854VVNtalk
about6855INabout
today6856NNtoday
.6857SENT.
So6858RBso
...6859:...
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6860LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
But6861CCbut
it6862PPit
seems6863VVZseem
that6864IN/thatthat
by6865INby
its6866PP$its
nature6867NNnature
,6868,,
if6869INif
the6870DTthe
principle6871NNprinciple
is6872VBZbe
,6873,,
as6874INas
Justice6875NPJustice
Kagan6876NPKagan
suggests6877VVZsuggest
,6878,,
hypothetically6879RBhypothetically
,6880,,
if6881INif
it6882PPit
's6883VBZbe
historically6884RBhistorically
established6885VVNestablish
that6886IN/thatthat
you6887PPyou
cannot6888MDcan
punish6889VVpunish
people6890NNSpeople
who6891WPwho
do6892VVPdo
n't6893RBn't
know6894VVknow
the6895DTthe
difference6896NNdifference
between6897INbetween
right6898JJright
and6899CCand
wrong6900JJwrong
,6901,,
that6902WDTthat
certainly6903RBcertainly
sounds6904VVZsound
like6905INlike
something6906NNsomething
that6907WDTthat
is6908VBZbe
rooted6909VVNroot
in6910INin
the6911DTthe
conscience6912NNconscience
and6913CCand
would6914MDwould
be6915VBbe
ranked6916VVNrank
as6917INas
fundamental6918JJfundamental
.6919SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]6920LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Well6921UHWell
,6922,,
I6923PPI
...6924:...
I6925PPI
think6926VVPthink
what6927WPwhat
the6928DTthe
...6929:...
what6930WPwhat
the6931DTthe
...6932:...
and6933CCand
I6934PPI
do6935VVPdo
n't6936RBn't
mean6937VVmean
to6938TOto
fight6939VVfight
the6940DTthe
hypothetical6941JJhypothetical
here6942RBhere
...6943:...
but6944CCbut
my6945PP$my
understanding6946NNunderstanding
of6947INof
the6948DTthe
history6949NNhistory
is6950VBZbe
that6951IN/thatthat
what6952WPwhat
has6953VHZhave
been6954VBNbe
dealt6955VVNdeal
with6956INwith
throughout6957INthroughout
our6958PP$our
time6959NNtime
is6960VBZbe
how6961WRBhow
to6962TOto
resolve6963VVresolve
and6964CCand
handle6965VVhandle
mental6966JJmental
illness6967NNillness
within6968INwithin
the6969DTthe
criminal6970JJcriminal
capability6971NNcapability
system6972NNsystem
.6973SENT.
And6974CCand
what6975WPwhat
this6976DTthis
Court6977NPCourt
's6978POS's
decision6979NNdecision
,6980,,
Arizona6981NPArizona
versus6982CCversus
Clark6983NPClark
said6984VVDsay
,6985,,
is6986VBZbe
that6987IN/thatthat
there6988EXthere
is6989VBZbe
no6990RBno
fundamental6991JJfundamental
...6992:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]6993LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
You6994PPyou
're6995VBPbe
not6996RBnot
going6997VVGgo
to6998TOto
get6999VVget
it7000PPit
exactly7001RBexactly
.7002SENT.
I7003PPI
mean7004VVPmean
,7005,,
it7006PPit
is7007VBZbe
a7008DTa
...7009:...
it7010PPit
is7011VBZbe
a7012DTa
nightmare7013NNnightmare
trying7014VVGtry
to7015TOto
figure7016VVfigure
out7017RPout
exact7018JJexact
standards7019NNSstandard
.7020SENT.
I7021PPI
agree7022VVPagree
with7023INwith
that7024DTthat
.7025SENT.
But7026CCbut
my7027PP$my
question7028NNquestion
,7029,,
which7030WDTwhich
I7031PPI
just7032RBjust
hope7033VVPhope
you7034PPyou
would7035MDwould
clarify7036VVclarify
,7037,,
because7038INbecause
it7039PPit
's7040VBZbe
...7041:...
I7042PPI
'm7043VBPbe
stumbling7044VVGstumble
on7045INon
it7046PPit
,7047,,
imagine7048VVimagine
two7049CDtwo
defendants7050NNSdefendant
.7051SENT.
Both7052DTboth
defendants7053NNSdefendant
,7054,,
17055CD1
and7056CCand
27057CD2
,7058,,
are7059VBPbe
certified7060JJcertified
by7061INby
whatever7062WDTwhatever
board7063NNboard
of7064INof
psychiatrists7065NNSpsychiatrist
you7066PPyou
want7067VVPwant
as7068RBas
totally7069RBtotally
insane7070JJinsane
.7071SENT.
All7072DTall
right7073NNright
?7074SENT?
The7075DTthe
first7076JJfirst
defendant7077NNdefendant
shoots7078VVZshoot
and7079CCand
kills7080VVZkill
Smith7081NPSmith
.7082SENT.
The7083DTthe
second7084JJsecond
defendant7085NNdefendant
shoots7086VVZshoot
and7087CCand
kills7088VVZkill
Jones7089NPJones
.7090SENT.
The7091DTthe
first7092JJfirst
defendant7093NNdefendant
thinks7094VVZthink
that7095IN/thatthat
Smith7096NPSmith
is7097VBZbe
a7098DTa
dog7099NNdog
.7100SENT.
The7101DTthe
second7102JJsecond
defendant7103NNdefendant
knows7104VVZknow
it7105PPit
's7106VBZbe
a7107DTa
person7108NNperson
but7109CCbut
thinks7110VVZthink
the7111DTthe
dog7112NNdog
told7113VVDtell
him7114PPhim
to7115TOto
do7116VVdo
it7117PPit
.7118SENT.
Okay7119JJokay
?7120SENT?
What7121WPWhat
's7122VBZbe
the7123DTthe
difference7124NNdifference
?7125SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7126LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So7127INso
I7128PPI
think7129VVPthink
that7130WDTthat
's7131VBZbe
...7132:...
the7133DTthe
difference7134NNdifference
is7135VBZbe
criminal7136JJcriminal
intent7137NNintent
in7138INin
the7139DTthe
first7140JJfirst
situation7141NNsituation
because7142INbecause
,7143,,
as7144INas
I7145PPI
understand7146VVPunderstand
the7147DTthe
hypothetical7148JJhypothetical
,7149,,
the7150DTthe
individual7151NNindividual
intends7152VVZintend
to7153TOto
commit7154VVcommit
a7155DTa
crime7156NNcrime
against7157INagainst
a7158DTa
human7159NNhuman
being7160VBGbe
.7161SENT.
[JUSTICE BREYER]7162LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
I7163PPI
...7164:...
I7165PPI
...7166:...
I7167PPI
know7168VVPknow
these7169DTthese
are7170VBPbe
words7171NNSword
,7172,,
you7173PPyou
see7174VVPsee
,7175,,
I7176PPI
want7177VVPwant
it7178PPit
looking7179VVGlook
for7180INfor
something7181NNsomething
in7182INin
terms7183NNSterm
of7184INof
criminal7185JJcriminal
law7186NNlaw
or7187CCor
legal7188JJlegal
purpose7189NNpurpose
or7190CCor
human7191JJhuman
purpose7192NNpurpose
or7193CCor
whatever7194WDTwhatever
that7195DTthat
would7196MDwould
treat7197VVtreat
the7198DTthe
two7199CDtwo
...7200:...
why7201WRBwhy
treat7202VVtreat
them7203PPthem
differently7204RBdifferently
?7205SENT?
One7206PPone
answer7207VVPanswer
you7208PPyou
've7209VHPhave
given7210VVNgive
,7211,,
you7212PPyou
said7213VVDsay
it7214PPit
's7215VBZbe
so7216RBso
hard7217JJhard
to7218TOto
figure7219VVfigure
out7220RPout
.7221SENT.
I7222PPI
agree7223VVPagree
it7224PPit
's7225VBZbe
hard7226JJhard
to7227TOto
get7228VVget
a7229DTa
definition7230NNdefinition
.7231SENT.
That7232DTthat
's7233VBZbe
going7234VVGgo
to7235TOto
be7236VBbe
true7237JJtrue
in7238INin
both7239DTboth
cases7240NNScase
.7241SENT.
You7242PPyou
say7243VVPsay
criminal7244JJcriminal
,7245,,
corporate7246JJcorporate
criminal7247JJcriminal
liability7248NNliability
,7249,,
and7250CCand
regulatory7251JJregulatory
offenses7252NNSoffense
.7253SENT.
I7254PPI
agree7255VVPagree
with7256INwith
you7257PPyou
,7258,,
you7259PPyou
'd7260MDwould
have7261VHhave
to7262TOto
carve7263VVcarve
out7264RPout
exceptions7265NNSexception
and7266CCand
that7267DTthat
is7268VBZbe
not7269RBnot
easy7270JJeasy
to7271TOto
do7272VVdo
.7273SENT.
Okay7274JJokay
?7275SENT?
I7276PPI
've7277VHPhave
got7278VVNget
those7279DTthose
points7280NNSpoint
.7281SENT.
But7282CCbut
I7283PPI
'm7284VBPbe
looking7285VVGlook
for7286INfor
something7287NNsomething
different7288JJdifferent
between7289INbetween
the7290DTthe
two7291CDtwo
defendants7292NNSdefendant
.7293SENT.
The7294DTthe
dog7295NNdog
,7296,,
there7297RBthere
he7298PPhe
is7299VBZbe
,7300,,
the7301DTthe
dog7302NNdog
,7303,,
he7304PPhe
told7305VVDtell
me7306PPme
to7307TOto
do7308VVdo
it7309PPit
.7310SENT.
They7311PPthey
are7312VBPbe
both7313CCboth
crazy7314JJcrazy
.7315SENT.
And7316CCand
why7317WRBwhy
does7318VVZdo
Kansas7319NPKansas
say7320VVsay
one7321PPone
is7322VBZbe
guilty7323JJguilty
,7324,,
the7325DTthe
other7326JJother
is7327VBZbe
not7328RBnot
guilty7329JJguilty
?7330SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7331LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So7332INso
I7333PPI
...7334:...
I7335PPI
think7336VVPthink
that7337IN/thatthat
this7338DTthis
Court7339NPCourt
's7340POS's
cases7341NNScase
have7342VHPhave
historically7343RBhistorically
allowed7344VVNallow
legislative7345JJlegislative
...7346:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]7347LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
I7348PPI
do7349VVPdo
n't7350RBn't
care7351VVcare
...7352:...
[MR. CROUSE]7353LOC[MR. CROUSE]
...7354:...
bodies7355NNSbody
...7356:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]7357LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
...7358:...
what7359WPwhat
the7360DTthe
cases7361NNScase
say7362VVPsay
at7363INat
this7364DTthis
moment7365NNmoment
.7366SENT.
I7367PPI
've7368VHPhave
read7369VVNread
cases7370NNScase
,7371,,
my7372PP$my
law7373NNlaw
clerk7374NNclerk
has7375VHZhave
found7376VVNfind
407377CD@card@
instances7378NNSinstance
,7379,,
going7380VVGgo
back7381RBback
to7382TOto
Bracton7383NPBracton
,7384,,
you7385PPyou
know7386VVPknow
,7387,,
where7388WRBwhere
it7389PPit
seems7390VVZseem
to7391TOto
be7392VBbe
against7393INagainst
you7394PPyou
,7395,,
but7396CCbut
I7397PPI
'm7398VBPbe
not7399RBnot
interested7400JJinterested
in7401INin
that7402DTthat
.7403SENT.
I7404PPI
'm7405VBPbe
interested7406JJinterested
in7407INin
a7408DTa
practical7409JJpractical
,7410,,
pragmatic7411JJpragmatic
purpose7412NNpurpose
,7413,,
in7414INin
why7415WRBwhy
the7416DTthe
law7417NNlaw
should7418MDshould
treat7419VVtreat
those7420DTthose
two7421CDtwo
cases7422NNScase
differently7423RBdifferently
.7424SENT.
Same7425JJsame
question7426NNquestion
,7427,,
I7428PPI
've7429VHPhave
just7430RBjust
now7431RBnow
repeated7432VVDrepeat
it7433PPit
three7434CDthree
times7435NNStime
,7436,,
and7437CCand
I7438PPI
am7439VBPbe
listening7440VVGlisten
for7441INfor
your7442PP$your
answer7443NNanswer
.7444SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]7445LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So7446RBso
...7447:...
and7448CCand
I7449PPI
apologize7450VVPapologize
for7451INfor
not7452RBnot
getting7453VVGget
to7454TOto
the7455DTthe
answer7456NNanswer
of7457INof
your7458PP$your
question7459NNquestion
.7460SENT.
I7461PPI
think7462VVPthink
that7463IN/thatthat
the7464DTthe
problem7465NNproblem
is7466VBZbe
that7467IN/thatthat
states7468NNSstate
have7469VHPhave
grappled7470VVNgrapple
with7471INwith
this7472DTthis
and7473CCand
they7474PPthey
've7475VHPhave
made7476VVNmake
different7477JJdifferent
moral7478JJmoral
judgments7479NNSjudgment
as7480INas
to7481TOto
who7482WPwho
is7483VBZbe
morally7484RBmorally
responsible7485JJresponsible
or7486CCor
not7487RBnot
.7488SENT.
And7489CCand
this7490DTthis
Court7491NPCourt
's7492POS's
cases7493NNScase
allow7494VVPallow
the7495DTthe
state7496NNstate
legislatures7497NNSlegislature
or7498CCor
federal7499JJfederal
Congress7500NPCongress
to7501TOto
determine7502VVdetermine
whether7503INwhether
that7504DTthat
person7505NNperson
should7506MDshould
be7507VBbe
or7508CCor
should7509MDshould
not7510RBnot
be7511VBbe
held7512VVNhold
responsible7513JJresponsible
.7514SENT.
What7515WPWhat
Kansas7516NPKansas
does7517VVZdo
is7518VBZbe
it7519PPit
identifies7520VVZidentify
those7521DTthose
who7522WPwho
intend7523VVPintend
to7524TOto
commit7525VVcommit
a7526DTa
crime7527NNcrime
,7528,,
punishes7529VVZpunish
those7530DTthose
.7531SENT.
[JUSTICE BREYER]7532LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
You're7533NPYou're
...7534:...
you7535PPyou
're7536VBPbe
telling7537VVGtell
me7538PPme
...7539:...
[MR. CROUSE]7540LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Our7541NPOur
...7542:...
our7543PP$our
...7544:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]7545LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
...7546:...
that7547DTthat
states7548NNSstate
...7549:...
and7550CCand
you7551PPyou
're7552VBPbe
right7553JJright
,7554,,
particularly7555RBparticularly
Kansas7556NPKansas
,7557,,
do7558VVPdo
,7559,,
in7560INin
fact7561NNfact
,7562,,
treat7563VVPtreat
he7564PPhe
's7565VBZbe
a7566DTa
dog7567NNdog
,7568,,
the7569DTthe
dog7570NNdog
told7571VVDtell
me7572PPme
to7573TOto
do7574VVdo
it7575PPit
,7576,,
differently7577RBdifferently
.7578SENT.
But7579CCbut
my7580PP$my
question7581NNquestion
was7582VBDbe
why7583WRBwhy
?7584SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7585LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Well7586UHwell
,7587,,
I7588PPI
think7589VVPthink
it7590PPit
's7591VBZbe
a7592DTa
spectrum7593NNspectrum
as7594INas
to7595TOto
what7596WPwhat
the7597DTthe
states7598NNSstate
believe7599VVPbelieve
is7600VBZbe
appropriate7601JJappropriate
.7602SENT.
In7603INin
Delaware7604NPDelaware
,7605,,
for7606INfor
example7607NNexample
,7608,,
my7609PP$my
understanding7610NNunderstanding
is7611VBZbe
that7612IN/thatthat
individual7613NNindividual
would7614MDwould
not7615RBnot
be7616VBbe
convicted7617VVNconvict
,7618,,
whereas7619INwhereas
in7620INin
Illinois7621NPIllinois
that7622IN/thatthat
person7623NNperson
could7624MDcould
be7625VBbe
convicted7626VVNconvict
because7627INbecause
they7628PPthey
know7629VVPknow
that7630IN/thatthat
shooting7631VVGshoot
a7632DTa
human7633JJhuman
being7634NNbeing
is7635VBZbe
legally7636RBlegally
wrong7637JJwrong
.7638SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]7639LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Do7640VVPdo
you7641PPyou
think7642VVPthink
,7643,,
General7644NPGeneral
Crouse7645NPCrouse
,7646,,
that7647WDTthat
you7648PPyou
could7649MDcould
also7650RBalso
eliminate7651VVeliminate
consideration7652NNconsideration
of7653INof
the7654DTthe
moral7655JJmoral
understanding7656NNunderstanding
at7657INat
sentencing7658NNsentencing
,7659,,
in7660INin
other7661JJother
words7662NNSword
,7663,,
take7664VVtake
the7665DTthe
Justice7666NPJustice
Breyer7667NPBreyer
example7668NNexample
and7669CCand
the7670DTthe
dog7671NNdog
told7672VVDtell
me7673PPme
to7674TOto
do7675VVdo
it7676PPit
,7677,,
would7678MDwould
it7679PPit
be7680VBbe
unconstitutional7681JJunconstitutional
if7682INif
your7683PP$your
state7684NNstate
did7685VVDdo
not7686RBnot
have7687VHhave
a7688DTa
procedure7689NNprocedure
for7690INfor
considering7691VVGconsider
that7692IN/thatthat
at7693INat
sentencing7694NNsentencing
?7695SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7696LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So7697RBso
obviously7698RBobviously
a7699DTa
different7700JJdifferent
question7701NNquestion
and7702CCand
I7703PPI
think7704VVPthink
it7705PPit
also7706RBalso
engenders7707VVZengender
a7708DTa
different7709JJdifferent
test7710NNtest
.7711SENT.
I7712PPI
think7713VVPthink
that7714DTthat
...7715:...
that7716IN/thatthat
,7717,,
if7718INif
you7719PPyou
're7720VBPbe
considering7721VVGconsider
what7722WPwhat
is7723VBZbe
available7724JJavailable
at7725INat
the7726DTthe
sentencing7727NNsentencing
,7728,,
for7729INfor
whether7730INwhether
it7731PPit
violates7732VVZviolate
the7733DTthe
constitution7734NNconstitution
,7735,,
would7736MDwould
implicate7737VVimplicate
the7738DTthe
Eighth7739JJeighth
Amendment7740NPAmendment
.7741SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]7742LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Well7743UHWell
,7744,,
let7745NNlet
's7746VHZhave
put7747VVNput
the7748DTthe
Eighth7749JJeighth
Amendment7750NPAmendment
to7751TOto
the7752DTthe
side7753NNside
.7754SENT.
Let7755NPLet
's7756POS's
say7757VVPsay
that7758IN/thatthat
this7759DTthis
is7760VBZbe
n't7761RBn't
a7762DTa
capital7763NNcapital
case7764NNcase
.7765SENT.
All7766DTall
right7767NNright
?7768SENT?
Does7769VVZdo
a7770DTa
state7771NNstate
just7772RBjust
have7773VHPhave
to7774TOto
have7775VHhave
a7776DTa
way7777NNway
to7778TOto
consider7779VVconsider
at7780INat
sentencing7781NNsentencing
somebody7782NNsomebody
's7783POS's
complete7784JJcomplete
lack7785NNlack
of7786INof
understanding7787NNunderstanding
of7788INof
the7789DTthe
morality7790NNmorality
of7791INof
his7792PP$his
actions7793NNSaction
?7794SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7795LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I7796PPI
do7797VVPdo
n't7798RBn't
believe7799VVbelieve
that7800IN/thatthat
this7801DTthis
Court7802NPCourt
's7803POS's
cases7804NNScase
would7805MDwould
indicate7806VVindicate
that7807IN/thatthat
the7808DTthe
states7809NNSstate
have7810VHPhave
to7811TOto
consider7812VVconsider
the7813DTthe
morality7814NNmorality
at7815INat
sentencing7816NNsentencing
or7817CCor
any7818DTany
particular7819JJparticular
time7820NNtime
.7821SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]7822LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
But7823CCbut
the7824DTthe
...7825:...
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]7826LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
How7827WRBHow
about7828RBabout
...7829:...
how7830WRBhow
about7831RBabout
the7832DTthe
mens7833NPmens
rea7834NPrea
aspect7835NNaspect
of7836INof
that7837DTthat
?7838SENT?
I7839PPI
...7840:...
I7841PPI
...7842:...
I7843PPI
just7844RBjust
want7845VVPwant
to7846TOto
follow7847VVfollow
up7848RPup
on7849INon
Justice7850NPJustice
Breyer7851NPBreyer
's7852POS's
question7853NNquestion
as7854INas
well7855RBwell
,7856,,
and7857CCand
Justice7858NPJustice
Kagan7859NPKagan
.7860SENT.
If7861INif
...7862:...
would7863MDwould
you7864PPyou
...7865:...
would7866MDwould
you7867PPyou
accept7868VVaccept
that7869IN/thatthat
at7870INat
least7871JJSleast
that7872DTthat
is7873VBZbe
required7874VVNrequire
as7875INas
a7876DTa
matter7877NNmatter
of7878INof
due7879JJdue
process7880NNprocess
,7881,,
that7882IN/thatthat
some7883DTsome
inquiry7884NNinquiry
into7885INinto
mens7886NPmens
rea7887NPrea
is7888VBZbe
required7889VVNrequire
in7890INin
these7891DTthese
cases7892NNScase
?7893SENT?
And7894CCand
if7895INif
so7896RBso
,7897,,
why7898WRBwhy
?7899SENT?
And7900CCand
if7901INif
not7902RBnot
,7903,,
why7904WRBwhy
?7905SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7906LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Well7907UHWell
,7908,,
yes7909UHyes
,7910,,
I7911PPI
would7912MDwould
accept7913VVaccept
that7914IN/thatthat
carving7915VVGcarve
out7916RPout
strict7917JJstrict
liability7918NNliability
in7919INin
the7920DTthe
corporate7921JJcorporate
liability7922NNliability
context7923NNcontext
.7924SENT.
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]7925LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
Why7926NPWhy
?7927SENT?
And7928CCand
how7929WRBhow
do7930VVPdo
you7931PPyou
reconcile7932VVreconcile
that7933IN/thatthat
with7934INwith
our7935PP$our
strict7936JJstrict
liability7937NNliability
cases7938NNScase
?7939SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]7940LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Well7941UHWell
,7942,,
I7943PPI
...7944:...
I7945PPI
think7946VVPthink
what7947WPwhat
this7948DTthis
Court7949NPCourt
has7950VHZhave
done7951VVNdo
is7952VBZbe
historically7953RBhistorically
guarded7954VVNguard
mens7955NPmens
rea7956NPrea
because7957INbecause
that7958WDTthat
's7959VBZbe
what7960WPwhat
separates7961VVZseparate
innocent7962JJinnocent
conduct7963NNconduct
from7964INfrom
criminal7965JJcriminal
conduct7966NNconduct
.7967SENT.
And7968CCand
that7969DTthat
's7970VBZbe
what7971WPwhat
Kansas7972NPKansas
has7973VHZhave
done7974VVNdo
here7975RBhere
.7976SENT.
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]7977LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
So7978INso
you7979PPyou
...7980:...
you7981PPyou
accept7982VVPaccept
that7983IN/thatthat
there7984EXthere
is7985VBZbe
a7986DTa
constitutional7987JJconstitutional
minimum7988JJminimum
floor7989NNfloor
below7990INbelow
which7991WDTwhich
the7992DTthe
state7993NNstate
...7994:...
states7995NNSstate
cannot7996MDcan
proceed7997VVproceed
with7998INwith
respect7999NNrespect
to8000TOto
mental8001JJmental
capacity8002NNcapacity
and8003CCand
insanity8004NNinsanity
;8005:;
you8006PPyou
just8007RBjust
suggest8008VVPsuggest
that8009IN/thatthat
you8010PPyou
've8011VHPhave
met8012VVNmeet
that8013DTthat
standard8014NNstandard
.8015SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]8016LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I8017PPI
...8018:...
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]8019LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
Is8020VBZbe
that8021IN/thatthat
the8022DTthe
...8023:...
the8024DTthe
nub8025NNnub
of8026INof
the8027DTthe
argument8028NNargument
,8029,,
then8030RBthen
?8031SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8032LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I8033PPI
think8034VVPthink
I8035PPI
would8036MDwould
finely8037RBfinely
parse8038VVparse
that8039IN/thatthat
a8040DTa
little8041JJlittle
bit8042NNbit
.8043SENT.
I8044PPI
would8045MDwould
...8046:...
I8047PPI
admit8048VVPadmit
that8049IN/thatthat
there8050EXthere
is8051VBZbe
a8052DTa
mens8053NPmens
rea8054NPrea
requirement8055NNrequirement
with8056INwith
regard8057VVregard
to8058TOto
how8059WRBhow
one8060PPone
would8061MDwould
define8062VVdefine
insanity8063NNinsanity
.8064SENT.
I8065PPI
do8066VVPdo
n't8067RBn't
believe8068VVbelieve
that8069IN/thatthat
this8070DTthis
Court8071NPCourt
has8072VHZhave
identified8073VVNidentify
a8074DTa
floor8075NNfloor
and8076CCand
suggested8077VVDsuggest
that8078IN/thatthat
there8079EXthere
are8080VBPbe
variations8081NNSvariation
of8082INof
ways8083NNSway
to8084TOto
handle8085VVhandle
...8086:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8087LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
I8088PPI
'm8089VBPbe
not8090RBnot
sure8091JJsure
I8092PPI
understand8093VVPunderstand
.8094SENT.
You8095PPyou
accept8096VVPaccept
that8097IN/thatthat
states8098NNSstate
can8099MDcan
define8100VVdefine
strict8101JJstrict
liability8102NNliability
crimes8103NNScrime
.8104SENT.
I8105PPI
do8106VVPdo
n't8107RBn't
know8108VVknow
if8109INif
you8110PPyou
've8111VHPhave
answered8112VVNanswer
Justice8113NPJustice
Gorsuch8114NPGorsuch
's8115POS's
question8116NNquestion
...8117:...
[JUSTICE GORSUCH]8118LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH]
No8119NPNo
.8120SENT.
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8121LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
...8122:...
which8123WDTwhich
is8124VBZbe
could8125MDcould
...8126:...
could8127MDcould
you8128PPyou
do8129VVdo
away8130RBaway
with8131INwith
the8132DTthe
mens8133NPmens
rea8134NPrea
defense8135NNdefense
?8136SENT?
Could8137MDcould
you8138PPyou
simply8139RBsimply
say8140VVPsay
we8141PPwe
in8142INin
Kansas8143NPKansas
believe8144VVPbelieve
if8145INif
you8146PPyou
kill8147VVPkill
someone8148NNsomeone
,8149,,
regardless8150RBregardless
of8151INof
the8152DTthe
reasons8153NNSreason
,8154,,
if8155INif
you8156PPyou
've8157VHPhave
done8158VVNdo
the8159DTthe
act8160NNact
,8161,,
you8162PPyou
've8163VHPhave
committed8164VVNcommit
murder8165NNmurder
?8166SENT?
Period8167NNperiod
,8168,,
end8169NNend
of8170INof
story8171NNstory
.8172SENT.
No8173DTno
mens8174NPmens
rea8175NPrea
defense8176NNdefense
,8177,,
no8178DTno
nothing8179NNnothing
.8180SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]8181LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Again8182RBagain
,8183,,
I8184PPI
think8185VVPthink
that8186DTthat
is8187VBZbe
a8188DTa
much8189RBmuch
more8190RBRmore
difficult8191JJdifficult
situation8192NNsituation
,8193,,
and8194CCand
I8195PPI
...8196:...
I8197PPI
...8198:...
I8199PPI
think8200VVPthink
that8201IN/thatthat
would8202MDwould
present8203VVpresent
a8204DTa
...8205:...
a8206DTa
lot8207NNlot
of8208INof
additional8209JJadditional
problems8210NNSproblem
for8211INfor
the8212DTthe
State8213NPState
of8214INof
Kansas8215NPKansas
because8216INbecause
of8217INof
this8218DTthis
Court8219NPCourt
's8220POS's
requirement8221NNrequirement
of8222INof
having8223VHGhave
a8224DTa
mens8225NPmens
rea8226NPrea
baseline8227NNbaseline
.8228SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]8229LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Could8230MDcould
you8231PPyou
...8232:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]8233LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well8234UHWell
,8235,,
has8236VHZhave
that8237DTthat
...8238:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]8239LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
...8240:...
get8241VVget
rid8242JJrid
of8243INof
other8244JJother
defenses8245NNSdefense
...8246:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]8247LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...8248:...
ever8249RBever
been8250VBNbe
...8251:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]8252LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
...8253:...
General8254NPGeneral
Crouse8255NPCrouse
?8256SENT?
Could8257MDcould
you8258PPyou
get8259VVget
rid8260JJrid
of8261INof
other8262JJother
defenses8263NNSdefense
?8264SENT?
You8265PPyou
know8266VVPknow
,8267,,
duress8268NNduress
.8269SENT.
Could8270MDcould
you8271PPyou
get8272VVget
rid8273JJrid
of8274INof
the8275DTthe
duress8276NNduress
defense8277NNdefense
?8278SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8279LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Yeah8280NPYeah
,8281,,
so8282RBso
...8283:...
so8284INso
I8285PPI
...8286:...
I8287PPI
think8288VVPthink
the8289DTthe
same8290JJsame
historical8291JJhistorical
analysis8292NNanalysis
that8293IN/thatthat
we8294PPwe
have8295VHPhave
undergone8296VVNundergo
with8297INwith
regard8298NNregard
to8299TOto
the8300DTthe
insanity8301NNinsanity
test8302NNtest
is8303VBZbe
something8304NNsomething
that8305IN/thatthat
we8306PPwe
would8307MDwould
have8308VHhave
to8309TOto
look8310VVlook
at8311INat
.8312SENT.
I8313PPI
have8314VHPhave
n't8315RBn't
done8316VVNdo
the8317DTthe
...8318:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8319LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Well8320UHWell
,8321,,
on8322INon
the8323DTthe
...8324:...
[MR. CROUSE]8325LOC[MR. CROUSE]
...8326:...
individual8327JJindividual
research8328NNresearch
on8329INon
duress8330NNduress
...8331:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8332LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
...8333:...
the8334DTthe
history8335NNhistory
...8336:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]8337LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
You8338PPyou
seem8339VVPseem
very8340RBvery
reticent8341JJreticent
about8342INabout
answering8343VVGanswer
these8344DTthese
questions8345NNSquestion
.8346SENT.
Has8347VHZhave
there8348RBthere
ever8349RBever
been8350VBNbe
...8351:...
can8352MDcan
you8353PPyou
cite8354VVcite
any8355DTany
...8356:...
any8357DTany
state8358NNstate
or8359CCor
any8360DTany
legal8361JJlegal
system8362NNsystem
,8363,,
I8364PPI
'll8365MDwill
even8366RBeven
just8367RBjust
limit8368VVlimit
it8369PPit
to8370TOto
English-speaking8371JJEnglish-speaking
countries8372NNScountry
,8373,,
that8374WDTthat
have8375VHPhave
ever8376RBever
said8377VVNsay
that8378IN/thatthat
killing8379VVGkill
another8380DTanother
person8381NNperson
is8382VBZbe
a8383DTa
strict8384JJstrict
liability8385NNliability
offense8386NNoffense
?8387SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8388LOC[MR. CROUSE]
No8389NPNo
.8390SENT.
And8391CCand
...8392:...
and8393CCand
Kansas8394NPKansas
certainly8395RBcertainly
does8396VVZdo
n't8397RBn't
do8398VVdo
that8399DTthat
.8400SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8401LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
On8402INon
the8403DTthe
history8404NNhistory
that8405IN/thatthat
Justice8406NPJustice
Kagan8407NPKagan
was8408VBDbe
asking8409VVGask
about8410RBabout
,8411,,
I8412PPI
think8413VVPthink
your8414PP$your
primary8415JJprimary
answer8416NNanswer
was8417VBDbe
that8418IN/thatthat
there8419EXthere
's8420VHZhave
been8421VBNbe
no8422DTno
particular8423JJparticular
test8424NNtest
that8425WDTthat
is8426VBZbe
historically8427RBhistorically
rooted8428VVNroot
.8429SENT.
But8430CCbut
is8431VBZbe
n't8432RBn't
there8433RBthere
a8434DTa
baseline8435NNbaseline
that8436WDTthat
is8437VBZbe
historically8438RBhistorically
rooted8439VVNroot
,8440,,
above8441INabove
which8442WDTwhich
there8443EXthere
have8444VHPhave
been8445VBNbe
a8446DTa
variety8447NNvariety
of8448INof
tests8449NNStest
that8450WDTthat
have8451VHPhave
been8452VBNbe
accepted8453VVNaccept
by8454INby
the8455DTthe
states8456NNSstate
until8457INuntil
,8458,,
as8459INas
Justice8460NPJustice
Sotomayor8461NPSotomayor
said8462VVDsay
,8463,,
until8464INuntil
the8465DTthe
end8466NNend
of8467INof
the8468DTthe
20th8469JJ20th
century8470NNcentury
?8471SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8472LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I8473PPI
...8474:...
I8475PPI
think8476VVPthink
I8477PPI
would8478MDwould
agree8479VVagree
that8480IN/thatthat
the8481DTthe
states8482NNSstate
have8483VHPhave
...8484:...
organized8485VVNorganize
societies8486NNSsociety
have8487VHPhave
consistently8488RBconsistently
struggled8489VVNstruggle
with8490INwith
how8491WRBhow
to8492TOto
define8493VVdefine
and8494CCand
handle8495VVhandle
mental8496JJmental
illness8497NNillness
,8498,,
but8499CCbut
I8500PPI
do8501VVPdo
n't8502RBn't
believe8503VVbelieve
that8504IN/thatthat
there8505EXthere
has8506VHZhave
been8507VBNbe
a8508DTa
baseline8509NNbaseline
that8510WDTthat
has8511VHZhave
been8512VBNbe
established8513VVNestablish
beneath8514INbeneath
which8515WDTwhich
the8516DTthe
states8517NNSstate
could8518MDcould
go8519VVgo
.8520SENT.
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8521LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
Well8522UHWell
,8523,,
since8524INsince
the8525DTthe
early8526JJearly
1800s8527NN1800s
,8528,,
at8529INat
least8530JJSleast
,8531,,
to8532TOto
the8533DTthe
late8534JJlate
20th8535JJ20th
century8536NNcentury
in8537INin
the8538DTthe
United8539NPUnited
States8540NPSStates
,8541,,
did8542VVDdo
n't8543RBn't
every8544DTevery
state8545NNstate
allow8546VVallow
some8547DTsome
form8548NNform
of8549INof
a8550DTa
separate8551JJseparate
insanity8552NNinsanity
defense8553NNdefense
at8554INat
the8555DTthe
guilt8556NNguilt
phase8557NNphase
?8558SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8559LOC[MR. CROUSE]
My8560PP$my
understanding8561NNunderstanding
is8562VBZbe
that8563IN/thatthat
the8564DTthe
treatment8565NNtreatment
of8566INof
insanity8567NNinsanity
has8568VHZhave
varied8569VVNvary
within8570INwithin
particular8571JJparticular
parameters8572NNSparameter
.8573SENT.
For8574INfor
example8575NNexample
,8576,,
some8577DTsome
states8578NNSstate
would8579MDwould
require8580VVrequire
an8581DTan
affirmative8582JJaffirmative
defense8583NNdefense
.8584SENT.
Kansas8585NPKansas
,8586,,
for8587INfor
example8588NNexample
,8589,,
did8590VVDdo
n't8591RBn't
have8592VHhave
a8593DTa
separate8594JJseparate
defense8595NNdefense
.8596SENT.
It8597PPit
...8598:...
[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8599LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]
But8600CCbut
all8601DTall
separate8602JJseparate
...8603:...
let8604VVlet
me8605PPme
just8606RBjust
focus8607VVPfocus
on8608INon
my8609PP$my
question8610NNquestion
.8611SENT.
All8612DTall
...8613:...
all8614PDTall
the8615DTthe
states8616NNSstate
had8617VHDhave
something8618NNsomething
separate8619JJseparate
from8620INfrom
the8621DTthe
mens8622NPmens
rea8623NPrea
approach8624NNapproach
at8625INat
the8626DTthe
guilt8627NNguilt
phase8628NNphase
through8629INthrough
the8630DTthe
end8631NNend
of8632INof
the8633DTthe
20th8634JJ20th
century8635NNcentury
;8636:;
is8637VBZbe
n't8638RBn't
that8639IN/thatthat
correct8640JJcorrect
as8641INas
a8642DTa
matter8643NNmatter
of8644INof
historical8645JJhistorical
practice8646NNpractice
?8647SENT?
You8648PPyou
can8649MDcan
still8650RBstill
win8651VVwin
the8652DTthe
case8653NNcase
,8654,,
as8655INas
Justice8656NPJustice
Kagan8657NPKagan
noted8658VVDnote
,8659,,
but8660CCbut
just8661RBjust
to8662TOto
make8663VVmake
sure8664JJsure
we8665PPwe
're8666VBPbe
on8667INon
the8668DTthe
same8669JJsame
page8670NNpage
.8671SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]8672LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Yeah8673NPYeah
,8674,,
and8675CCand
I8676PPI
'm8677VBPbe
not8678RBnot
trying8679VVGtry
to8680TOto
...8681:...
to8682TOto
skip8683VVskip
the8684DTthe
answer8685NNanswer
,8686,,
because8687INbecause
I8688PPI
think8689VVPthink
Kansas8690NPKansas
actually8691RBactually
included8692VVDinclude
it8693PPit
as8694INas
part8695NNpart
of8696INof
the8697DTthe
guilt8698NNguilt
phase8699NNphase
.8700SENT.
It8701PPit
did8702VVDdo
n't8703RBn't
have8704VHhave
a8705DTa
separate8706JJseparate
insanity8707NNinsanity
defense8708NNdefense
.8709SENT.
So8710RBso
,8711,,
for8712INfor
example8713NNexample
,8714,,
it8715PPit
came8716VVDcome
in8717INin
with8718INwith
a8719DTa
different8720JJdifferent
definition8721NNdefinition
.8722SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]8723LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
I8724PPI
mean8725VVPmean
,8726,,
you8727PPyou
're8728VBPbe
saying8729VVGsay
all8730DTall
states8731NNSstate
had8732VHDhave
a8733DTa
separate8734JJseparate
insanity8735NNinsanity
defense8736NNdefense
in8737INin
58738CD5
17918739CD@card@
?8740SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8741LOC[MR. CROUSE]
I8742PPI
...8743:...
I8744PPI
...8745:...
I8746PPI
do8747VVPdo
n't8748RBn't
believe8749VVbelieve
I8750PPI
was8751VBDbe
saying8752VVGsay
that8753DTthat
...8754:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]8755LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
No8756NPNo
.8757SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]8758LOC[MR. CROUSE]
...8759:...
they8760PPthey
have8761VHPhave
separate8762JJseparate
defenses8763NNSdefense
.8764SENT.
I8765PPI
think8766VVPthink
they8767PPthey
handled8768VVDhandle
it8769PPit
differently8770RBdifferently
.8771SENT.
Some8772DTsome
of8773INof
them8774PPthem
defined8775VVDdefine
it8776PPit
as8777INas
an8778DTan
affirmative8779JJaffirmative
defense8780NNdefense
.8781SENT.
Some8782DTsome
of8783INof
them8784PPthem
put8785VVPput
it8786PPit
in8787INin
a8788DTa
separate8789JJseparate
proceeding8790NNproceeding
.8791SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]8792LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Some8793RBsome
of8794INof
them8795PPthem
handled8796VVDhandle
it8797PPit
through8798INthrough
mens8799NPmens
rea8800NPrea
,8801,,
did8802VVDdo
they8803PPthey
not8804RBnot
?8805SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8806LOC[MR. CROUSE]
They8807PPthey
have8808VHPhave
.8809SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]8810LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Does8811VVZdo
mens8812NPmens
rea8813NPrea
for8814INfor
murder8815NNmurder
or8816CCor
for8817INfor
any8818DTany
other8819JJother
criminal8820JJcriminal
defense8821NNdefense
vary8822VVPvary
from8823INfrom
case8824NNcase
to8825TOto
case8826NNcase
?8827SENT?
Is8828VBZbe
it8829PPit
not8830RBnot
the8831DTthe
same8832JJsame
in8833INin
every8834DTevery
case8835NNcase
regardless8836RBregardless
of8837INof
whether8838INwhether
the8839DTthe
person8840NNperson
claims8841VVZclaim
to8842TOto
be8843VBbe
mentally8844RBmentally
ill8845JJill
or8846CCor
not8847RBnot
?8848SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8849LOC[MR. CROUSE]
The8850DTthe
mens8851NPmens
rea8852NPrea
element8853NNelement
would8854MDwould
be8855VBbe
consistent8856JJconsistent
in8857INin
an8858DTan
attempt8859NNattempt
to8860TOto
commit8861VVcommit
a8862DTa
crime8863NNcrime
,8864,,
yes8865UHyes
.8866SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]8867LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
So8868RBso
if8869INif
the8870DTthe
mens8871NPmens
rea8872NPrea
element8873NNelement
traditionally8874RBtraditionally
incorporated8875VVDincorporate
a8876DTa
requirement8877NNrequirement
of8878INof
moral8879JJmoral
capability8880NNcapability
...8881:...
of8882INof
moral8883JJmoral
culpability8884NNculpability
,8885,,
that8886WDTthat
would8887MDwould
apply8888VVapply
across8889INacross
the8890DTthe
board8891NNboard
,8892,,
would8893MDwould
it8894PPit
not8895RBnot
?8896SENT?
Not8897RBnot
just8898RBjust
to8899TOto
cases8900NNScase
where8901WRBwhere
the8902DTthe
person8903NNperson
says8904VVZsay
this8905DTthis
is8906VBZbe
...8907:...
I8908PPI
...8909:...
I8910PPI
had8911VHDhave
this8912DTthis
lack8913NNlack
of8914INof
capacity8915NNcapacity
due8916JJdue
to8917TOto
mental8918JJmental
illness8919NNillness
,8920,,
but8921CCbut
I8922PPI
have8923VHPhave
it8924PPit
due8925JJdue
to8926TOto
political8927JJpolitical
brainwashing8928NNbrainwashing
or8929CCor
religious8930JJreligious
fanaticism8931NNfanaticism
or8932CCor
any8933DTany
other8934JJother
reason8935NNreason
?8936SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8937LOC[MR. CROUSE]
That8938DTthat
's8939VBZbe
correct8940JJcorrect
,8941,,
Justice8942NPJustice
Alito8943NPAlito
.8944SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]8945LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
I8946PPI
mean8947VVPmean
,8948,,
is8949VBZbe
that8950DTthat
...8951:...
was8952VBDbe
was8953VBDbe
that8954IN/thatthat
the8955DTthe
traditional8956JJtraditional
understanding8957NNunderstanding
of8958INof
mens8959NPmens
rea8960NPrea
?8961SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]8962LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So8963INso
I8964PPI
do8965VVPdo
n't8966RBn't
believe8967VVbelieve
that8968WDTthat
was8969VBDbe
consistent8970JJconsistent
with8971INwith
the8972DTthe
historical8973JJhistorical
understanding8974NNunderstanding
of8975INof
mens8976NPmens
rea8977NPrea
.8978SENT.
And8979CCand
I8980PPI
think8981VVPthink
it8982PPit
's8983VBZbe
also8984RBalso
inconsistent8985JJinconsistent
with8986INwith
general8987JJgeneral
criminal8988JJcriminal
principles8989NNSprinciple
in8990INin
which8991WDTwhich
we8992PPwe
do8993VVPdo
n't8994RBn't
look8995VVlook
at8996INat
the8997DTthe
motive8998NNmotive
of8999INof
the9000DTthe
individual9001NNindividual
committing9002VVGcommit
the9003DTthe
crime9004NNcrime
...9005:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]9006LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Would9007MDwould
...9008:...
would9009MDwould
you9010PPyou
agree9011VVagree
that9012IN/thatthat
historically9013RBhistorically
,9014,,
if9015INif
you9016PPyou
go9017VVPgo
back9018RBback
and9019CCand
you9020PPyou
look9021VVPlook
at9022INat
the9023DTthe
cases9024NNScase
,9025,,
you9026PPyou
see9027VVPsee
this9028DTthis
operating9029VVGoperate
in9030INin
two9031CDtwo
categories9032NNScategory
of9033INof
cases9034NNScase
.9035SENT.
One9036PPone
is9037VBZbe
for9038INfor
insane9039JJinsane
people9040NNSpeople
,9041,,
and9042CCand
one9043PPone
is9044VBZbe
for9045INfor
what9046WPwhat
were9047VBDbe
then9048RBthen
called9049VVNcall
idiots9050NNSidiot
,9051,,
right9052RBright
,9053,,
people9054NNSpeople
who9055WPwho
lacked9056VVDlack
mental9057JJmental
capacity9058NNcapacity
?9059SENT?
So9060RBso
,9061,,
I9062PPI
mean9063VVPmean
,9064,,
but9065CCbut
...9066:...
but9067CCbut
for9068INfor
those9069DTthose
people9070NNSpeople
,9071,,
it9072PPit
came9073VVDcome
up9074RPup
again9075RBagain
and9076CCand
again9077RBagain
that9078DTthat
,9079,,
yes9080UHyes
,9081,,
you9082PPyou
know9083VVPknow
,9084,,
you9085PPyou
lack9086VVPlack
the9087DTthe
moral9088JJmoral
capacity9089NNcapacity
to9090TOto
understand9091VVunderstand
what9092WPwhat
you9093PPyou
're9094VBPbe
doing9095VVGdo
and9096CCand
,9097,,
therefore9098RBtherefore
,9099,,
the9100DTthe
criminal9101JJcriminal
system9102NNsystem
ought9103MDought
to9104TOto
operate9105VVoperate
differently9106RBdifferently
on9107INon
you9108PPyou
.9109SENT.
Isn't9110NNIsn't
...9111:...
is9112VBZbe
n't9113RBn't
that9114DTthat
right9115NNright
?9116SENT?
[MR. CROUSE]9117LOC[MR. CROUSE]
So9118INso
I9119PPI
would9120MDwould
push9121VVpush
back9122RBback
only9123RBonly
in9124INin
...9125:...
in9126INin
regard9127NNregard
to9128TOto
whether9129INwhether
or9130CCor
not9131RBnot
it9132PPit
was9133VBDbe
a9134DTa
moral9135JJmoral
capability9136NNcapability
.9137SENT.
I9138PPI
think9139VVPthink
,9140,,
historically9141RBhistorically
,9142,,
it9143PPit
's9144VBZbe
looked9145VVNlook
at9146INat
a9147DTa
cognitive9148JJcognitive
capability9149NNcapability
as9150INas
to9151TOto
whether9152INwhether
we9153PPwe
could9154MDcould
...9155:...
can9156MDcan
take9157VVtake
intent9158NNintent
to9159TOto
commit9160VVcommit
a9161DTa
crime9162NNcrime
.9163SENT.
And9164CCand
I9165PPI
do9166VVPdo
n't9167RBn't
think9168VVthink
that9169IN/thatthat
the9170DTthe
moral9171JJmoral
capacity9172NNcapacity
came9173VVDcome
in9174INin
until9175INuntil
the9176DTthe
M'Naghten9177JJM'Naghten
era9178NNera
as9179INas
to9180TOto
...9181:...
we9182PPwe
asked9183VVDask
whether9184INwhether
or9185CCor
not9186RBnot
someone9187NNsomeone
knew9188VVDknow
it9189PPit
was9190VBDbe
right9191JJright
and9192CCand
wrong9193JJwrong
to9194TOto
commit9195VVcommit
a9196DTa
crime9197NNcrime
.9198SENT.
[JUSTICE BREYER]9199LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
But9200CCbut
it9201PPit
was9202VBDbe
n't9203RBn't
phrased9204VVNphrase
at9205INat
that9206DTthat
.9207SENT.
I9208PPI
mean9209VVPmean
,9210,,
it9211PPit
's9212VBZbe
quite9213RBquite
deep9214JJdeep
,9215,,
this9216DTthis
question9217NNquestion
.9218SENT.
It9219PPit
's9220VBZbe
like9221INlike
ethics9222NNSethic
and9223CCand
Aristotle9224NNAristotle
.9225SENT.
The9226DTthe
wind9227NNwind
blew9228VVDblow
my9229PP$my
hand9230NNhand
.9231SENT.
You9232PPyou
do9233VVPdo
n't9234RBn't
hold9235VVhold
him9236PPhim
...9237:...
well9238UHwell
,9239,,
I9240PPI
'll9241MDwill
save9242VVsave
my9243PP$my
depth9244NNdepth
for9245INfor
later9246RBRlater
.9247SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9248LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Finish9249VVfinish
your9250PP$your
question9251NNquestion
.9252SENT.
[JUSTICE BREYER]9253LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
I9254PPI
'm9255VBPbe
not9256RBnot
sure9257JJsure
I9258PPI
want9259VVPwant
to9260TOto
.9261SENT.
[9262SYM[
LAUGHTER9263NNlaughter
]9264SYM]
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9265LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Thank9266VVthank
you9267PPyou
,9268,,
counsel9269NNcounsel
.9270SENT.
[MR. CROUSE]9271LOC[MR. CROUSE]
Thank9272VVthank
you9273PPyou
.9274SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9275LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Ms9276NNMs
.9277SENT.
Prelogar9278NPPrelogar
.9279SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]9280LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
Mr9281NPMr
.9282SENT.
Chief9283NPChief
Justice9284NPJustice
,9285,,
and9286CCand
may9287MDmay
it9288PPit
please9289VVplease
the9290DTthe
Court9291NPCourt
:9292::
Petitioner9293NNpetitioner
bears9294VVZbear
the9295DTthe
burden9296NNburden
of9297INof
establishing9298VVGestablish
that9299IN/thatthat
substantive9300JJsubstantive
due9301JJdue
process9302NNprocess
principles9303NNSprinciple
override9304VVoverride
the9305DTthe
Kansas9306NPKansas
legislature9307NNlegislature
's9308POS's
judgment9309NNjudgment
in9310INin
this9311DTthis
case9312NNcase
in9313INin
adopting9314VVGadopt
a9315DTa
mens9316NPmens
rea9317NPrea
test9318NNtest
of9319INof
insanity9320NNinsanity
,9321,,
and9322CCand
he9323PPhe
has9324VHZhave
not9325RBnot
carried9326VVNcarry
that9327DTthat
burden9328NNburden
.9329SENT.
Petitioner9330NNpetitioner
suggests9331VVZsuggest
that9332IN/thatthat
this9333DTthis
Court9334NPCourt
should9335MDshould
recognize9336VVrecognize
a9337DTa
theory9338NNtheory
of9339INof
moral9340JJmoral
culpability9341NNculpability
and9342CCand
impose9343VVimpose
that9344IN/thatthat
uniformly9345RBuniformly
across9346INacross
the9347DTthe
states9348NNSstate
.9349SENT.
But9350CCbut
the9351DTthe
problem9352NNproblem
with9353INwith
that9354DTthat
approach9355NNapproach
is9356VBZbe
,9357,,
both9358CCboth
as9359INas
a9360DTa
matter9361NNmatter
of9362INof
history9363NNhistory
and9364CCand
in9365INin
contemporaneous9366JJcontemporaneous
practice9367NNpractice
,9368,,
there9369EXthere
has9370VHZhave
been9371VBNbe
no9372DTno
agreement9373NNagreement
on9374INon
the9375DTthe
precise9376JJprecise
circumstances9377NNScircumstance
when9378WRBwhen
mental9379JJmental
illness9380NNillness
should9381MDshould
excuse9382VVexcuse
criminal9383JJcriminal
responsibility9384NNresponsibility
.9385SENT.
And9386CCand
I9387PPI
'd9388MDwould
like9389VVlike
to9390TOto
begin9391VVbegin
,9392,,
actually9393RBactually
,9394,,
with9395INwith
the9396DTthe
hypotheticals9397NNShypotheticals
that9398IN/thatthat
Justice9399NPJustice
Sotomayor9400NPSotomayor
and9401CCand
Justice9402NPJustice
Breyer9403NPBreyer
brought9404VVDbring
up9405RPup
,9406,,
because9407INbecause
I9408PPI
think9409VVPthink
that9410IN/thatthat
this9411DTthis
actually9412RBactually
illustrates9413VVZillustrate
that9414IN/thatthat
even9415RBeven
in9416INin
contemporary9417JJcontemporary
jurisdictions9418NNSjurisdiction
today9419NNtoday
,9420,,
there9421EXthere
is9422VBZbe
a9423DTa
basic9424JJbasic
divide9425NNdivide
on9426INon
when9427WRBwhen
someone9428NNsomeone
should9429MDshould
be9430VBbe
entitled9431VVNentitle
to9432TOto
invoke9433VVinvoke
the9434DTthe
insanity9435NNinsanity
defense9436NNdefense
.9437SENT.
And9438CCand
this9439DTthis
gets9440VVZget
to9441TOto
the9442DTthe
...9443:...
the9444DTthe
difference9445NNdifference
between9446INbetween
legal9447JJlegal
wrong9448JJwrong
and9449CCand
moral9450JJmoral
wrong9451NNwrong
.9452SENT.
Even9453RBeven
in9454INin
those9455DTthose
jurisdictions9456NNSjurisdiction
that9457WDTthat
adopt9458VVPadopt
a9459DTa
wrongfulness9460NNwrongfulness
test9461NNtest
,9462,,
the9463DTthe
one9464CDone
that9465IN/thatthat
Petitioner9466NNpetitioner
is9467VBZbe
proposing9468VVGpropose
,9469,,
there9470EXthere
is9471VBZbe
differential9472JJdifferential
treatment9473NNtreatment
of9474INof
defendants9475NNSdefendant
based9476VVNbase
on9477INon
whether9478INwhether
they9479PPthey
could9480MDcould
appreciate9481VVappreciate
that9482IN/thatthat
their9483PP$their
conduct9484NNconduct
violated9485VVDviolate
the9486DTthe
law9487NNlaw
and9488CCand
constituted9489VVDconstitute
a9490DTa
crime9491NNcrime
or9492CCor
not9493RBnot
.9494SENT.
So9495RBso
imagine9496VVimagine
the9497DTthe
defendant9498NNdefendant
who9499WPwho
hears9500VVZhear
voices9501NNSvoice
that9502WDTthat
command9503VVPcommand
him9504PPhim
to9505TOto
kill9506VVkill
in9507INin
order9508NNorder
to9509TOto
save9510VVsave
the9511DTthe
human9512JJhuman
race9513NNrace
.9514SENT.
He9515PPhe
knows9516VVZknow
that9517IN/thatthat
murder9518NNmurder
is9519VBZbe
a9520DTa
crime9521NNcrime
and9522CCand
that9523IN/thatthat
he9524PPhe
'd9525MDwould
be9526VBbe
violating9527VVGviolate
the9528DTthe
law9529NNlaw
,9530,,
but9531CCbut
he9532PPhe
thinks9533VVZthink
the9534DTthe
action9535NNaction
is9536VBZbe
morally9537RBmorally
justified9538VVNjustify
because9539INbecause
of9540INof
his9541PP$his
mental9542JJmental
illness9543NNillness
.9544SENT.
In9545INin
a9546DTa
substantial9547JJsubstantial
number9548NNnumber
of9549INof
jurisdictions9550NNSjurisdiction
,9551,,
he9552PPhe
would9553MDwould
not9554RBnot
be9555VBbe
entitled9556VVNentitle
to9557TOto
invoke9558VVinvoke
the9559DTthe
insanity9560NNinsanity
defense9561NNdefense
.9562SENT.
And9563CCand
so9564RBso
to9565TOto
try9566VVtry
to9567TOto
recognize9568VVrecognize
or9569CCor
articulate9570VVarticulate
a9571DTa
theory9572NNtheory
of9573INof
moral9574JJmoral
culpability9575NNculpability
,9576,,
I9577PPI
think9578VVPthink
,9579,,
has9580VHZhave
...9581:...
has9582VHZhave
no9583DTno
roots9584NNSroot
in9585INin
history9586NNhistory
and9587CCand
would9588MDwould
actually9589RBactually
raise9590VVraise
the9591DTthe
possibility9592NNpossibility
of9593INof
challenging9594VVGchallenge
state9595NNstate
laws9596NNSlaw
across9597INacross
the9598DTthe
nation9599NNnation
.9600SENT.
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9601LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
Excuse9602NNexcuse
me9603PPme
.9604SENT.
We9605PPwe
have9606VHPhave
...9607:...
every9608DTevery
state9609NNstate
has9610VHZhave
a9611DTa
duress9612NNduress
defense9613NNdefense
.9614SENT.
They9615PPthey
all9616RBall
vary9617VVPvary
.9618SENT.
They9619PPthey
all9620RBall
have9621VHPhave
different9622JJdifferent
exceptions9623NNSexception
.9624SENT.
They9625PPthey
all9626RBall
have9627VHPhave
different9628JJdifferent
articulations9629NNSarticulation
.9630SENT.
There9631EXthere
's9632VBZbe
never9633RBnever
been9634VBNbe
a9635DTa
common9636JJcommon
one9637CDone
,9638,,
but9639CCbut
all9640DTall
509641CD@card@
have9642VHPhave
them9643PPthem
.9644SENT.
And9645CCand
the9646DTthe
essence9647NNessence
of9648INof
it9649PPit
is9650VBZbe
defined9651VVNdefine
very9652RBvery
simply9653RBsimply
as9654INas
duress9655NNduress
,9656,,
compulsion9657NNcompulsion
.9658SENT.
And9659CCand
we9660PPwe
give9661VVPgive
wide9662JJwide
,9663,,
wide9664JJwide
,9665,,
incredible9666JJincredible
latitude9667NNlatitude
to9668TOto
the9669DTthe
states9670NNSstate
to9671TOto
define9672VVdefine
those9673DTthose
circumstances9674NNScircumstance
.9675SENT.
I9676PPI
think9677VVPthink
what9678WPwhat
your9679PP$your
adversary9680NNadversary
is9681VBZbe
saying9682VVGsay
is9683VBZbe
that9684IN/thatthat
making9685VVGmake
this9686DTthis
go9687VVPgo
simply9688RBsimply
to9689TOto
intent9690NNintent
and9691CCand
taking9692VVGtake
out9693RPout
some9694DTsome
differentiation9695NNdifferentiation
from9696INfrom
the9697DTthe
true9698JJtrue
lunatic9699NNlunatic
who9700WPwho
knows9701VVZknow
it9702PPit
's9703VBZbe
wrong9704JJwrong
to9705TOto
kill9706VVkill
a9707DTa
person9708NNperson
but9709CCbut
the9710DTthe
TV9711NNTV
made9712VVDmake
him9713PPhim
do9714VVPdo
it9715PPit
,9716,,
no9717DTno
volition9718NNvolition
whatsoever9719RBwhatsoever
to9720TOto
conform9721VVconform
his9722PP$his
conduct9723NNconduct
to9724TOto
the9725DTthe
law9726NNlaw
,9727,,
no9728DTno
ability9729NNability
,9730,,
I9731PPI
think9732VVPthink
it9733PPit
's9734VBZbe
more9735RBRmore
moral9736JJmoral
incapacity9737NNincapacity
,9738,,
rather9739RBrather
than9740INthan
capacity9741NNcapacity
.9742SENT.
The9743DTthe
intent-based9744JJintent-based
defenses9745NNSdefense
do9746VVPdo
n't9747RBn't
encompass9748VVencompass
that9749IN/thatthat
in9750INin
any9751DTany
way9752NNway
.9753SENT.
This9754DTthis
is9755VBZbe
not9756RBnot
like9757INlike
Clark9758NPClark
where9759WRBwhere
we9760PPwe
found9761VVDfind
that9762IN/thatthat
the9763DTthe
two9764CDtwo
prongs9765NNSprong
of9766INof
the9767DTthe
M'Naghten9768JJM'Naghten
test9769NNtest
were9770VBDbe
really9771RBreally
encompassed9772VVNencompass
in9773INin
the9774DTthe
first9775JJfirst
.9776SENT.
That9777DTthat
's9778VBZbe
what9779WPwhat
the9780DTthe
problem9781NNproblem
is9782VBZbe
for9783INfor
me9784PPme
.9785SENT.
There9786EXthere
is9787VBZbe
an9788DTan
essence9789NNessence
,9790,,
just9791RBjust
as9792INas
there9793EXthere
is9794VBZbe
an9795DTan
essence9796NNessence
of9797INof
compulsion9798NNcompulsion
for9799INfor
duress9800NNduress
as9801INas
a9802DTa
defense9803NNdefense
mechanism9804NNmechanism
,9805,,
there9806EXthere
is9807VBZbe
some9808DTsome
minor9809JJminor
amount9810NNamount
that9811WDTthat
has9812VHZhave
to9813TOto
excuse9814VVexcuse
criminal9815JJcriminal
liability9816NNliability
.9817SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]9818LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
And9819CCand
,9820,,
Justice9821NPJustice
Sotomayor9822NPSotomayor
,9823,,
Kansas9824NPKansas
here9825RBhere
has9826VHZhave
recognized9827VVNrecognize
cognitive9828JJcognitive
incapacity9829NNincapacity
as9830INas
the9831DTthe
way9832NNway
that9833IN/thatthat
you9834PPyou
excuse9835VVexcuse
criminal9836JJcriminal
responsibility9837NNresponsibility
when9838WRBwhen
you9839PPyou
are9840VBPbe
assessing9841VVGassess
these9842DTthese
difficult9843JJdifficult
issues9844NNSissue
of9845INof
how9846WRBhow
mental9847JJmental
illness9848NNillness
should9849MDshould
function9850VVfunction
to9851TOto
excuse9852VVexcuse
criminal9853JJcriminal
culpability9854NNculpability
in9855INin
a9856DTa
criminal9857JJcriminal
justice9858NNjustice
system9859NNsystem
.9860SENT.
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9861LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
But9862CCbut
that9863WDTthat
's9864VBZbe
...9865:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]9866LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
I9867PPI
think9868VVPthink
that9869DTthat
...9870:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9871LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
...9872:...
where9873WRBwhere
we9874PPwe
differ9875VVPdiffer
.9876SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]9877LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
But9878CCbut
to9879TOto
the9880DTthe
extent9881NNextent
that9882IN/thatthat
what9883WPwhat
...9884:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9885LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
Because9886INbecause
you9887PPyou
could9888MDcould
know9889VVknow
something9890NNsomething
is9891VBZbe
against9892INagainst
the9893DTthe
law9894NNlaw
and9895CCand
still9896RBstill
not9897RBnot
have9898VHhave
the9899DTthe
ability9900NNability
to9901TOto
conform9902VVconform
your9903PP$your
conduct9904NNconduct
.9905SENT.
If9906INif
I9907PPI
make9908VVPmake
a9909DTa
moral9910JJmoral
choice9911NNchoice
I9912PPI
could9913MDcould
say9914VVsay
,9915,,
if9916INif
it9917PPit
's9918VBZbe
only9919RBonly
a9920DTa
moral9921JJmoral
choice9922NNchoice
,9923,,
I9924PPI
could9925MDcould
say9926VVsay
I9927PPI
do9928VVPdo
n't9929RBn't
wish9930VVwish
to9931TOto
do9932VVdo
it9933PPit
because9934INbecause
of9935INof
my9936PP$my
morality9937NNmorality
.9938SENT.
Could9939MDcould
I9940PPI
physically9941RBphysically
stop9942VVstop
myself9943PPmyself
?9944SENT?
Yes9945UHyes
.9946SENT.
Someone9947NNsomeone
who9948WPwho
is9949VBZbe
insane9950JJinsane
can9951MDcan
't9952RB't
even9953RBeven
physically9954RBphysically
stop9955VVstop
themselves9956PPthemselves
.9957SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]9958LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
And9959CCand
our9960PP$our
...9961:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9962LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
But9963CCbut
that9964DTthat
's9965VBZbe
a9966DTa
different9967JJdifferent
,9968,,
sort9969NNsort
of9970INof
...9971:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]9972LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
I9973PPI
absolutely9974RBabsolutely
agree9975VVPagree
it9976PPit
's9977VBZbe
a9978DTa
different9979JJdifferent
test9980NNtest
of9981INof
insanity9982NNinsanity
.9983SENT.
As9984INas
this9985DTthis
Court9986NPCourt
has9987VHZhave
recognized9988VVNrecognize
,9989,,
jurisdictions9990NNSjurisdiction
have9991VHPhave
struggled9992VVNstruggle
with9993INwith
this9994DTthis
across9995INacross
time9996NNtime
and9997CCand
across9998INacross
different9999JJdifferent
places10000NNSplace
and10001CCand
they10002PPthey
've10003VHPhave
settled10004VVNsettle
on10005INon
different10006JJdifferent
variants10007NNSvariant
in10008INin
trying10009VVGtry
to10010TOto
identify10011VVidentify
the10012DTthe
precise10013JJprecise
circumstances10014NNScircumstance
...10015:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10016LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
But10017CCbut
,10018,,
Ms10019NNMs
...10020:...
.10021SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]10022LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
Which10023WDTwhich
would10024MDwould
pull10025VVpull
someone10026NNsomeone
totally10027RBtotally
outside10028INoutside
the10029DTthe
realm10030NNrealm
of10031INof
...10032:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10033LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms10034NNMs
.10035SENT.
Prelogar10036NNPrelogar
...10037:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]10038LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
...10039:...
criminal10040JJcriminal
culpability10041NNculpability
.10042SENT.
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10043LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
...10044:...
what10045WPwhat
you10046PPyou
are10047VBPbe
suggesting10048VVGsuggest
as10049INas
a10050DTa
test10051NNtest
for10052INfor
insanity10053NNinsanity
is10054VBZbe
not10055RBnot
a10056DTa
test10057NNtest
for10058INfor
insanity10059NNinsanity
.10060SENT.
It10061PPit
's10062VBZbe
just10063RBjust
the10064DTthe
usual10065JJusual
intent10066NNintent
requirement10067NNrequirement
that10068IN/thatthat
we10069PPwe
apply10070VVPapply
to10071TOto
all10072DTall
defendants10073NNSdefendant
.10074SENT.
If10075INif
the10076DTthe
defendant10077NNdefendant
does10078VVZdo
n't10079RBn't
have10080VHhave
the10081DTthe
intent10082NNintent
to10083TOto
kill10084VVkill
,10085,,
then10086RBthen
the10087DTthe
defendant10088NNdefendant
is10089VBZbe
not10090RBnot
culpable10091JJculpable
for10092INfor
that10093DTthat
act10094NNact
.10095SENT.
And10096CCand
it10097PPit
has10098VHZhave
nothing10099NNnothing
to10100TOto
do10101VVdo
with10102INwith
his10103PP$his
insanity10104NNinsanity
or10105CCor
not10106RBnot
.10107SENT.
And10108CCand
I10109PPI
think10110VVPthink
that10111IN/thatthat
the10112DTthe
question10113NNquestion
Ms10114NNMs
...10115:...
.10116SENT.
Justice10117NPJustice
Sotomayor10118NPSotomayor
is10119VBZbe
asking10120VVGask
is10121VBZbe
,10122,,
is10123VBZbe
there10124RBthere
something10125NNsomething
else10126NNelse
that10127WDTthat
's10128VBZbe
necessary10129JJnecessary
?10130SENT?
And10131CCand
we10132PPwe
would10133MDwould
leave10134VVleave
a10135DTa
lot10136NNlot
of10137INof
flexibility10138NNflexibility
to10139TOto
the10140DTthe
states10141NNSstate
,10142,,
but10143CCbut
that10144DTthat
something10145NNsomething
else10146RBelse
is10147VBZbe
...10148:...
is10149VBZbe
something10150NNsomething
that10151WDTthat
relates10152VVZrelate
particularly10153RBparticularly
to10154TOto
insane10155JJinsane
defendants10156NNSdefendant
,10157,,
to10158TOto
,10159,,
you10160PPyou
know10161VVPknow
,10162,,
their10163PP$their
ability10164NNability
to10165TOto
say10166VVsay
,10167,,
because10168INbecause
I10169PPI
have10170VHPhave
a10171DTa
mental10172JJmental
illness10173NNillness
,10174,,
there10175EXthere
has10176VHZhave
to10177TOto
be10178VBbe
something10179NNsomething
more10180RBRmore
.10181SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]10182LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
So10183INso
I10184PPI
do10185VVPdo
n't10186RBn't
think10187VVthink
that10188IN/thatthat
there10189EXthere
is10190VBZbe
something10191NNsomething
else10192RBelse
here10193RBhere
.10194SENT.
And10195CCand
as10196INas
this10197DTthis
Court10198NPCourt
has10199VHZhave
recognized10200VVNrecognize
,10201,,
the10202DTthe
guidepost10203NNguidepost
is10204VBZbe
history10205NNhistory
.10206SENT.
What10207WPWhat
Petitioner10208NNpetitioner
needs10209VVZneed
to10210TOto
do10211VVdo
is10212VBZbe
come10213VVcome
forward10214RBforward
with10215INwith
some10216DTsome
kind10217NNkind
of10218INof
historical10219JJhistorical
consensus10220NNconsensus
establishing10221VVGestablish
that10222IN/thatthat
there10223EXthere
's10224VBZbe
a10225DTa
fundamental10226JJfundamental
principle10227NNprinciple
that10228IN/thatthat
Kansas10229NPKansas
's10230POS's
mens10231NPmens
rea10232NPrea
approach10233NNapproach
is10234VBZbe
violating10235VVGviolate
.10236SENT.
And10237CCand
actually10238RBactually
the10239DTthe
mens10240NPmens
rea10241NPrea
approach10242NNapproach
is10243VBZbe
itself10244PPitself
one10245CDone
that10246WDTthat
was10247VBDbe
linked10248VVNlink
to10249TOto
the10250DTthe
common10251JJcommon
law10252NNlaw
early10253JJearly
articulations10254NNSarticulation
of10255INof
insanity10256NNinsanity
.10257SENT.
It10258PPit
was10259VBDbe
long10260RBlong
understood10261VVNunderstand
that10262IN/thatthat
one10263CDone
of10264INof
the10265DTthe
ways10266NNSway
you10267PPyou
might10268MDmight
try10269VVtry
to10270TOto
identify10271VVidentify
that10272DTthat
class10273NNclass
of10274INof
individuals10275NNSindividual
who10276WPwho
should10277MDshould
be10278VBbe
declared10279VVNdeclare
legally10280RBlegally
insane10281JJinsane
as10282INas
a10283DTa
legal10284JJlegal
concept10285NNconcept
was10286VBDbe
to10287TOto
look10288VVlook
at10289INat
those10290DTthose
who10291WPwho
did10292VVDdo
n't10293RBn't
have10294VHhave
capacity10295NNcapacity
to10296TOto
form10297VVform
criminal10298JJcriminal
intent10299NNintent
.10300SENT.
And10301CCand
I10302PPI
...10303:...
I10304PPI
want10305VVPwant
to10306TOto
pause10307VVpause
...10308:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10309LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
But10310CCbut
...10311:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]10312LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
...10313:...
for10314INfor
a10315DTa
moment10316NNmoment
...10317:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10318LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Ms10319NNMs
.10320SENT.
Prelogar10321NPPrelogar
,10322,,
let10323VVNlet
's10324POS's
just10325RBjust
say10326VVPsay
I10327PPI
disagree10328VVPdisagree
with10329INwith
this10330DTthis
,10331,,
that10332IN/thatthat
when10333WRBwhen
I10334PPI
look10335VVPlook
back10336RBback
at10337INat
the10338DTthe
history10339NNhistory
I10340PPI
see10341VVPsee
lots10342NNSlot
of10343INof
cases10344NNScase
,10345,,
Rex10346NPRex
v10347NNv
.10348SENT.
Arnold10349NPArnold
,10350,,
Billingham10351NPBillingham
,10352,,
a10353DTa
number10354NNnumber
of10355INof
others10356NNSother
,10357,,
which10358WDTwhich
make10359VVPmake
it10360PPit
quite10361RBquite
clear10362JJclear
,10363,,
I10364PPI
mean10365VVPmean
,10366,,
these10367DTthese
are10368VBPbe
all10369DTall
people10370NNSpeople
who10371WPwho
had10372VHDhave
an10373DTan
intent10374NNintent
to10375TOto
kill10376VVkill
.10377SENT.
And10378CCand
what10379WPwhat
the10380DTthe
common10381JJcommon
law10382NNlaw
was10383VBDbe
saying10384VVGsay
was10385VBDbe
that10386IN/thatthat
even10387RBeven
though10388INthough
they10389PPthey
had10390VHDhave
the10391DTthe
intent10392NNintent
to10393TOto
kill10394VVkill
,10395,,
there10396EXthere
was10397VBDbe
going10398VVGgo
to10399TOto
be10400VBbe
a10401DTa
further10402JJRfurther
inquiry10403NNinquiry
into10404INinto
how10405WRBhow
their10406PP$their
insanity10407NNinsanity
limited10408VVDlimit
their10409PP$their
moral10410JJmoral
understanding10411NNunderstanding
,10412,,
that10413WDTthat
...10414:...
their10415PP$their
understanding10416NNunderstanding
of10417INof
wrongfulness10418NNwrongfulness
of10419INof
their10420PP$their
act10421NNact
.10422SENT.
So10423RBso
if10424INif
I10425PPI
think10426VVPthink
that10427IN/thatthat
that10428DTthat
's10429VBZbe
kind10430NNkind
of10431INof
all10432DTall
over10433INover
the10434DTthe
history10435NNhistory
,10436,,
how10437WRBhow
do10438VVPdo
I10439PPI
find10440VVfind
for10441INfor
you10442PPyou
?10443SENT?
[MS. PRELOGAR]10444LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
Well10445UHwell
,10446,,
I10447PPI
want10448VVPwant
to10449TOto
make10450VVmake
clear10451JJclear
that10452IN/thatthat
even10453RBeven
if10454INif
you10455PPyou
thought10456VVDthink
this10457DTthis
was10458VBDbe
a10459DTa
novel10460NNnovel
approach10461NNapproach
that10462WDTthat
did10463VVDdo
n't10464RBn't
have10465VHhave
roots10466NNSroot
in10467INin
history10468NNhistory
,10469,,
the10470DTthe
Court10471NPCourt
has10472VHZhave
many10473JJmany
times10474NNStime
recognized10475VVDrecognize
that10476IN/thatthat
outlier10477NNoutlier
states10478NNSstate
are10479VBPbe
n't10480RBn't
necessarily10481RBnecessarily
violating10482VVGviolate
substantive10483JJsubstantive
due10484JJdue
process10485NNprocess
.10486SENT.
Leland10487NPLeland
versus10488FWversus
Oregon10489NPOregon
,10490,,
for10491INfor
example10492NNexample
,10493,,
was10494VBDbe
a10495DTa
case10496NNcase
where10497WRBwhere
Oregon10498NPOregon
was10499VBDbe
the10500DTthe
only10501JJonly
state10502NNstate
in10503INin
the10504DTthe
nation10505NNnation
that10506WDTthat
required10507VVDrequire
defendants10508NNSdefendant
to10509TOto
prove10510VVprove
their10511PP$their
insanity10512NNinsanity
beyond10513INbeyond
a10514DTa
reasonable10515JJreasonable
doubt10516NNdoubt
.10517SENT.
So10518RBso
I10519PPI
do10520VVPdo
n't10521RBn't
think10522VVthink
that10523IN/thatthat
that10524DTthat
's10525VBZbe
cause10526VVcause
alone10527RBalone
to10528TOto
think10529VVthink
that10530IN/thatthat
somehow10531RBsomehow
this10532DTthis
is10533VBZbe
violating10534VVGviolate
a10535DTa
fundamental10536JJfundamental
principle10537NNprinciple
.10538SENT.
And10539CCand
I10540PPI
think10541VVPthink
,10542,,
actually10543RBactually
,10544,,
looking10545VVGlook
at10546INat
the10547DTthe
jury10548NNjury
instructions10549NNSinstruction
in10550INin
some10551DTsome
of10552INof
the10553DTthe
cases10554NNScase
that10555IN/thatthat
you10556PPyou
mentioned10557VVDmention
,10558,,
Justice10559NPJustice
Kagan10560NPKagan
,10561,,
like10562INlike
Rex10563NPRex
versus10564CCversus
Arnold10565NPArnold
,10566,,
the10567DTthe
jury10568NNjury
was10569VBDbe
instructed10570VVNinstruct
there10571RBthere
that10572IN/thatthat
the10573DTthe
defendant10574NNdefendant
had10575VHDhave
to10576TOto
be10577VBbe
shown10578VVNshow
to10579TOto
have10580VHhave
no10581DTno
understanding10582NNunderstanding
or10583CCor
memory10584NNmemory
such10585JJsuch
that10586IN/thatthat
he10587PPhe
could10588MDcould
form10589VVform
no10590DTno
intent10591NNintent
whatsoever10592RBwhatsoever
.10593SENT.
That10594DTthat
is10595VBZbe
a10596DTa
restrictive10597JJrestrictive
test10598NNtest
of10599INof
insanity10600NNinsanity
.10601SENT.
It10602PPit
's10603VBZbe
focused10604VVNfocus
on10605INon
this10606DTthis
same10607JJsame
idea10608NNidea
of10609INof
cognitive10610JJcognitive
incapacity10611NNincapacity
...10612:...
[JUSTICE KAGAN]10613LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN]
Well10614UHwell
,10615,,
it10616PPit
's10617VBZbe
...10618:...
it10619PPit
's10620VBZbe
less10621RBRless
helpful10622JJhelpful
to10623TOto
me10624PPme
to10625TOto
go10626VVgo
over10627INover
each10628DTeach
case10629NNcase
one10630CDone
by10631INby
one10632CDone
than10633INthan
for10634INfor
you10635PPyou
to10636TOto
tell10637VVtell
me10638PPme
that10639IN/thatthat
if10640INif
,10641,,
you10642PPyou
know10643VVPknow
,10644,,
if10645INif
I10646PPI
...10647:...
what10648WPwhat
I10649PPI
think10650VVPthink
is10651VBZbe
true10652JJtrue
is10653VBZbe
that10654IN/thatthat
the10655DTthe
history10656NNhistory
,10657,,
there10658EXthere
's10659VBZbe
...10660:...
there10661EXthere
's10662VBZbe
...10663:...
there10664EXthere
's10665VBZbe
just10666RBjust
a10667DTa
ton10668NNton
that10669WDTthat
suggests10670VVZsuggest
that10671DTthat
...10672:...
that10673IN/thatthat
there10674EXthere
was10675VBDbe
something10676NNsomething
more10677JJRmore
than10678INthan
a10679DTa
requirement10680NNrequirement
that10681IN/thatthat
the10682DTthe
defendant10683NNdefendant
have10684VHPhave
...10685:...
be10686VBbe
able10687JJable
to10688TOto
form10689VVform
an10690DTan
intent10691NNintent
to10692TOto
kill10693VVkill
.10694SENT.
Does10695VVZdo
...10696:...
does10697VVZdo
Ms10698NNMs
.10699SENT.
Schrup10700NPSchrup
then10701RBthen
win10702VVwin
?10703SENT?
[MS. PRELOGAR]10704LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
I10705PPI
do10706VVPdo
n't10707RBn't
think10708VVthink
so10709RBso
,10710,,
because10711INbecause
Petitioner10712NNpetitioner
still10713RBstill
bears10714VVZbear
the10715DTthe
burden10716NNburden
of10717INof
trying10718VVGtry
to10719TOto
articulate10720VVarticulate
with10721INwith
precision10722NNprecision
what10723WPwhat
that10724DTthat
something10725NNsomething
more10726RBRmore
is10727VBZbe
.10728SENT.
And10729CCand
I10730PPI
...10731:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]10732LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
You10733PPyou
can10734MDcan
...10735:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]10736LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
...10737:...
think10738VVPthink
for10739INfor
this10740DTthis
here10741RBhere
...10742:...
[JUSTICE BREYER]10743LOC[JUSTICE BREYER]
You10744PPyou
can10745MDcan
,10746,,
I10747PPI
mean10748VVPmean
,10749,,
that10750WDTthat
was10751VBDbe
the10752DTthe
point10753NNpoint
of10754INof
my10755PP$my
question10756NNquestion
,10757,,
I10758PPI
think10759VVPthink
.10760SENT.
The10761DTthe
law10762NNlaw
has10763VHZhave
many10764JJmany
,10765,,
many10766JJmany
ways10767NNSway
of10768INof
,10769,,
in10770INin
different10771JJdifferent
circumstances10772NNScircumstance
,10773,,
trying10774VVGtry
to10775TOto
separate10776VVseparate
out10777RPout
individuals10778NNSindividual
for10779INfor
whom10780WPwhom
the10781DTthe
criminal10782JJcriminal
justice10783NNjustice
system10784NNsystem
is10785VBZbe
just10786RBjust
not10787RBnot
going10788VVGgo
to10789TOto
work10790VVwork
in10791INin
terms10792NNSterm
of10793INof
preventing10794VVGprevent
,10795,,
et10796CCet
cetera10797NPcetera
,10798,,
the10799DTthe
crimes10800NNScrime
.10801SENT.
One10802CDOne
,10803,,
the10804DTthe
wind10805NNwind
blew10806VVDblow
my10807PP$my
arm10808NNarm
.10809SENT.
Okay10810JJokay
?10811SENT?
Two10812CDTwo
,10813,,
duress10814NNduress
,10815,,
because10816INbecause
in10817INin
a10818DTa
duress10819NNduress
case10820NNcase
you10821PPyou
're10822VBPbe
looking10823VVGlook
to10824TOto
see10825VVsee
could10826MDcould
the10827DTthe
...10828:...
could10829MDcould
the10830DTthe
defendant10831NNdefendant
have10832VHPhave
done10833VVNdo
otherwise10834RBotherwise
.10835SENT.
With10836INwith
insanity10837NNinsanity
you10838PPyou
're10839VBPbe
close10840JJclose
to10841TOto
that10842DTthat
.10843SENT.
Often10844RBoften
it10845PPit
's10846VBZbe
a10847DTa
question10848NNquestion
of10849INof
could10850MDcould
the10851DTthe
defendant10852NNdefendant
have10853VHPhave
done10854VVNdo
otherwise10855RBotherwise
.10856SENT.
And10857CCand
even10858RBeven
where10859WRBwhere
not10860RBnot
,10861,,
it10862PPit
is10863VBZbe
is10864VBZbe
this10865DTthis
individual10866NNindividual
so10867RBso
different10868JJdifferent
from10869INfrom
an10870DTan
ordinary10871JJordinary
individual10872NNindividual
that10873IN/thatthat
it10874PPit
just10875RBjust
does10876VVZdo
n't10877RBn't
make10878VVmake
sense10879NNsense
to10880TOto
apply10881VVapply
the10882DTthe
law10883NNlaw
?10884SENT?
Now10885RBnow
,10886,,
if10887INif
some10888DTsome
something10889NNsomething
like10890INlike
that10891WDTthat
is10892VBZbe
going10893VVGgo
on10894RPon
,10895,,
then10896RBthen
my10897PP$my
question10898NNquestion
,10899,,
if10900INif
,10901,,
in10902INin
fact10903NNfact
,10904,,
he10905PPhe
's10906VBZbe
the10907DTthe
dog10908NNdog
,10909,,
out10910RBout
.10911SENT.
Why10912WRBwhy
is10913VBZbe
n't10914RBn't
it10915PPit
?10916SENT?
The10917DTthe
dog10918NNdog
told10919VVDtell
me10920PPme
to10921TOto
do10922VVdo
it10923PPit
.10924SENT.
Now10925RBnow
,10926,,
that10927WDTthat
's10928VBZbe
the10929DTthe
fourth10930JJfourth
time10931NNtime
I10932PPI
have10933VHPhave
asked10934VVNask
that10935RBthat
.10936SENT.
But10937CCbut
I10938PPI
would10939MDwould
like10940VVlike
to10941TOto
know10942VVknow
what10943WPwhat
you10944PPyou
think10945VVPthink
about10946INabout
it10947PPit
.10948SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]10949LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
So10950INso
these10951DTthese
are10952VBPbe
obviously10953RBobviously
difficult10954JJdifficult
questions10955NNSquestion
,10956,,
Justice10957NPJustice
Breyer10958NPBreyer
.10959SENT.
They10960PPthey
're10961VBPbe
ones10962NNSone
that10963IN/thatthat
societies10964NNSsociety
have10965VHPhave
wrestled10966VVNwrestle
with10967INwith
for10968INfor
centuries10969NNScentury
in10970INin
trying10971VVGtry
to10972TOto
balance10973VVbalance
the10974DTthe
medical10975JJmedical
and10976CCand
moral10977JJmoral
and10978CCand
legal10979JJlegal
judgments10980NNSjudgment
that10981WDTthat
go10982VVPgo
into10983INinto
crafting10984VVGcraft
an10985DTan
insanity10986NNinsanity
rule10987NNrule
.10988SENT.
This10989DTthis
Court10990NPCourt
has10991VHZhave
long10992RBlong
recognized10993VVNrecognize
that10994IN/thatthat
states10995NNSstate
have10996VHPhave
principal10997JJprincipal
responsibility10998NNresponsibility
to10999TOto
do11000VVdo
that11001DTthat
.11002SENT.
And11003CCand
I11004PPI
think11005VVPthink
that11006IN/thatthat
there11007EXthere
are11008VBPbe
various11009JJvarious
ways11010NNSway
states11011NNSstate
could11012MDcould
decide11013VVdecide
that11014IN/thatthat
they11015PPthey
want11016VVPwant
to11017TOto
distinguish11018VVdistinguish
between11019INbetween
those11020DTthose
two11021CDtwo
defendants11022NNSdefendant
.11023SENT.
For11024INfor
one11025CDone
thing11026NNthing
that11027DTthat
cognitive11028JJcognitive
incapacity11029NNincapacity
test11030NNtest
which11031WDTwhich
focuses11032VVZfocus
on11033INon
whether11034INwhether
the11035DTthe
individual11036NNindividual
thinks11037VVZthink
that11038IN/thatthat
the11039DTthe
person11040NNperson
he11041PPhe
shot11042VVDshoot
was11043VBDbe
a11044DTa
dog11045NNdog
,11046,,
might11047MDmight
be11048VBbe
an11049DTan
easier11050JJReasy
inquiry11051NNinquiry
for11052INfor
juries11053NNSjury
to11054TOto
undertake11055VVundertake
.11056SENT.
It11057PPit
might11058MDmight
be11059VBbe
a11060DTa
more11061RBRmore
readily-observable11062JJreadily-observable
sign11063NNsign
of11064INof
mental11065JJmental
illness11066NNillness
and11067CCand
less11068RBRless
likely11069JJlikely
to11070TOto
lead11071VVlead
to11072TOto
confusion11073NNconfusion
about11074INabout
what11075WPwhat
was11076VBDbe
actually11077RBactually
in11078INin
the11079DTthe
defendant11080NNdefendant
's11081POS's
mind11082NNmind
and11083CCand
whether11084INwhether
he11085PPhe
was11086VBDbe
considering11087VVGconsider
right11088JJright
versus11089CCversus
wrong11090JJwrong
.11091SENT.
A11092DTa
jurisdiction11093NNjurisdiction
might11094MDmight
also11095RBalso
think11096VVthink
that11097IN/thatthat
looking11098VVGlook
at11099INat
considerations11100NNSconsideration
of11101INof
individual11102JJindividual
culpability11103NNculpability
,11104,,
they11105PPthey
do11106VVPdo
n't11107RBn't
want11108VVwant
an11109DTan
on11110RBon
/11111SYM/
off11112JJoff
switch11113NNswitch
for11114INfor
criminal11115JJcriminal
responsibility11116NNresponsibility
but11117CCbut
,11118,,
rather11119RBrather
,11120,,
want11121VVPwant
to11122TOto
shift11123VVshift
those11124DTthose
considerations11125NNSconsideration
to11126TOto
the11127DTthe
sentencing11128NNsentencing
stage11129NNstage
where11130WRBwhere
a11131DTa
judge11132NNjudge
can11133MDcan
take11134VVtake
evidence11135NNevidence
and11136CCand
make11137VVmake
a11138DTa
more11139RBRmore
nuanced11140JJnuanced
determination11141NNdetermination
of11142INof
individual11143JJindividual
culpability11144NNculpability
.11145SENT.
Ultimately11146RBultimately
...11147:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]11148LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
How11149WRBHow
does11150VVZdo
that11151DTthat
stay11152NNstay
...11153:...
[MS. PRELOGAR]11154LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
...11155:...
I11156PPI
think11157VVPthink
that11158IN/thatthat
these11159DTthese
...11160:...
[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]11161LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]
...11162:...
consistent11163JJconsistent
with11164INwith
Apprendi11165NPApprendi
,11166,,
assuming11167VVGassume
we11168PPwe
find11169VVPfind
that11170IN/thatthat
since11171INsince
the11172DTthe
beginning11173NNbeginning
of11174INof
modern11175JJmodern
thought11176NNthought
that11177IN/thatthat
there11178EXthere
is11179VBZbe
an11180DTan
irreducible11181JJirreducible
minimum11182NNminimum
of11183INof
due11184JJdue
process11185NNprocess
that11186WDTthat
requires11187VVZrequire
the11188DTthe
insane11189NNinsane
to11190TOto
be11191VBbe
not11192RBnot
convicted11193VVNconvict
by11194INby
a11195DTa
judge11196NNjudge
or11197CCor
put11198VVput
in11199INin
a11200DTa
mental11201JJmental
institution11202NNinstitution
by11203INby
a11204DTa
judge11205NNjudge
but11206CCbut
by11207INby
a11208DTa
jury11209NNjury
?11210SENT?
[MS. PRELOGAR]11211LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
May11212MDmay
I11213PPI
answer11214VVanswer
,11215,,
Mr11216NPMr
.11217SENT.
Chief11218NPChief
Justice11219NPJustice
?11220SENT?
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11221LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Yes11222NPYes
.11223SENT.
[MS. PRELOGAR]11224LOC[MS. PRELOGAR]
There11225RBthere
would11226MDwould
still11227RBstill
be11228VBbe
a11229DTa
question11230NNquestion
,11231,,
Justice11232NPJustice
Sotomayor11233NPSotomayor
,11234,,
of11235INof
how11236WRBhow
you11237PPyou
define11238VVPdefine
who11239WPwho
is11240VBZbe
the11241DTthe
insane11242NNinsane
.11243SENT.
That11244DTthat
's11245VBZbe
a11246DTa
legal11247JJlegal
concept11248NNconcept
.11249SENT.
It11250PPit
's11251VBZbe
one11252CDone
that11253WDTthat
's11254VHZhave
yielded11255VVNyield
no11256DTno
single11257JJsingle
formulation11258NNformulation
.11259SENT.
And11260CCand
I11261PPI
think11262VVPthink
for11263INfor
this11264DTthis
Court11265NPCourt
to11266TOto
try11267VVtry
to11268TOto
articulate11269VVarticulate
a11270DTa
theory11271NNtheory
of11272INof
moral11273JJmoral
culpability11274NNculpability
could11275MDcould
throw11276VVthrow
into11277INinto
question11278NNquestion
state11279NNstate
laws11280NNSlaw
across11281INacross
the11282DTthe
nation11283NNnation
that11284WDTthat
are11285VBPbe
trying11286VVGtry
to11287TOto
make11288VVmake
these11289DTthese
difficult11290JJdifficult
judgments11291NNSjudgment
.11292SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11293LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Thank11294VVthank
you11295PPyou
,11296,,
counsel11297NNcounsel
.11298SENT.
Ms11299NNMs
.11300SENT.
Schrup11301NPSchrup
,11302,,
you11303PPyou
have11304VHPhave
five11305CDfive
minutes11306NNSminute
remaining11307VVGremain
.11308SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]11309LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Thank11310VVthank
you11311PPyou
,11312,,
Mr11313NPMr
.11314SENT.
Chief11315NPChief
Justice11316NPJustice
.11317SENT.
I11318PPI
'd11319MDwould
like11320VVlike
to11321TOto
make11322VVmake
three11323CDthree
quick11324JJquick
points11325NNSpoint
:11326::
First11327NPFirst
,11328,,
the11329DTthe
problem11330NNproblem
with11331INwith
the11332DTthe
mens11333NPmens
rea11334NPrea
approach11335NNapproach
,11336,,
to11337TOto
get11338VVget
to11339TOto
Justice11340NPJustice
Breyer11341NPBreyer
and11342CCand
Sotomayor11343NPSotomayor
's11344POS's
point11345NNpoint
,11346,,
is11347VBZbe
that11348IN/thatthat
it11349PPit
scrapes11350VVZscrape
out11351RPout
the11352DTthe
why11353WRBwhy
,11354,,
the11355DTthe
underlying11356VVGunderlie
motivation11357NNmotivation
fueled11358VVNfuel
by11359INby
mental11360JJmental
illness11361NNillness
that11362WDTthat
explains11363VVZexplain
a11364DTa
defendant11365NNdefendant
's11366POS's
act11367NNact
.11368SENT.
And11369CCand
that11370WDTthat
has11371VHZhave
been11372VBNbe
a11373DTa
part11374NNpart
of11375INof
our11376PP$our
history11377NNhistory
for11378INfor
centuries11379NNScentury
.11380SENT.
And11381CCand
that11382DTthat
gets11383VVZget
to11384TOto
the11385DTthe
dog11386NNdog
or11387CCor
the11388DTthe
dog11389NNdog
example11390NNexample
.11391SENT.
It11392PPit
's11393VBZbe
completely11394RBcompletely
arbitrary11395JJarbitrary
.11396SENT.
I11397PPI
do11398VVPdo
n't11399RBn't
know11400VVknow
why11401WRBwhy
if11402INif
you11403PPyou
think11404VVPthink
...11405:...
why11406WRBwhy
one11407CDone
defendant11408NNdefendant
who11409WPwho
thinks11410VVZthink
that11411IN/thatthat
a11412DTa
dog11413NNdog
,11414,,
he11415PPhe
's11416VBZbe
shooting11417VVGshoot
a11418DTa
dog11419NNdog
,11420,,
versus11421CCversus
another11422DTanother
one11423CDone
who11424WPwho
thinks11425VVZthink
a11426DTa
dog11427NNdog
is11428VBZbe
ordering11429VVGorder
him11430PPhim
to11431TOto
shoot11432VVshoot
someone11433NNsomeone
else11434RBelse
,11435,,
makes11436VVZmake
any11437DTany
difference11438NNdifference
whatsoever11439RBwhatsoever
.11440SENT.
The11441DTthe
first11442JJfirst
person11443NNperson
is11444VBZbe
acquitted11445VVNacquit
and11446CCand
let11447VVlet
out11448RPout
on11449INon
the11450DTthe
streets11451NNSstreet
and11452CCand
the11453DTthe
second11454NNsecond
is11455VBZbe
put11456VVNput
in11457INin
jail11458NNjail
and11459CCand
maybe11460RBmaybe
put11461VVput
to11462TOto
death11463NNdeath
.11464SENT.
The11465DTthe
second11466JJsecond
piece11467NNpiece
of11468INof
this11469DTthis
...11470:...
and11471CCand
so11472RBso
there11473EXthere
's11474VBZbe
no11475DTno
safety11476NNsafety
net11477NNnet
,11478,,
basically11479RBbasically
.11480SENT.
What11481WPWhat
Kansas11482NPKansas
does11483VVZdo
,11484,,
actually11485RBactually
,11486,,
is11487VBZbe
even11488RBeven
more11489RBRmore
extreme11490JJextreme
because11491INbecause
it11492PPit
limits11493VVZlimit
the11494DTthe
kind11495NNkind
of11496INof
mental11497JJmental
illness11498NNillness
evidence11499NNevidence
that11500WDTthat
could11501MDcould
come11502VVcome
in11503INin
,11504,,
and11505CCand
it11506PPit
is11507VBZbe
essentially11508RBessentially
advocating11509VVGadvocate
...11510:...
it11511PPit
...11512:...
it11513PPit
never11514RBnever
explains11515VVZexplain
why11516WRBwhy
or11517CCor
whether11518INwhether
there11519EXthere
is11520VBZbe
any11521DTany
light11522NNlight
between11523INbetween
the11524DTthe
wild11525JJwild
beast11526NNbeast
test11527NNtest
and11528CCand
the11529DTthe
M'Naghten11530NNM'Naghten
I11531PPI
test11532VVPtest
,11533,,
but11534CCbut
either11535DTeither
way11536NNway
it11537PPit
is11538VBZbe
fundamentally11539RBfundamentally
different11540JJdifferent
than11541INthan
what11542WPwhat
we11543PPwe
have11544VHPhave
had11545VHNhave
historically11546RBhistorically
and11547CCand
what11548WPwhat
4811549CD@card@
jurisdictions11550NNSjurisdiction
retain11551VVPretain
.11552SENT.
Second11553RBsecond
,11554,,
I11555PPI
'd11556MDwould
like11557VVlike
to11558TOto
turn11559VVturn
to11560TOto
my11561PP$my
friend11562NNfriend
on11563INon
the11564DTthe
other11565JJother
side11566NNside
's11567POS's
notion11568NNnotion
that11569WDTthat
...11570:...
that11571IN/thatthat
there11572EXthere
is11573VBZbe
some11574DTsome
limits11575NNSlimit
.11576SENT.
He11577PPhe
actually11578RBactually
does11579VVZdo
n't11580RBn't
suggest11581VVsuggest
anything11582NNanything
.11583SENT.
And11584CCand
if11585INif
you11586PPyou
look11587VVPlook
at11588INat
page11589NNpage
3911590CD@card@
and11591CCand
4011592CD@card@
of11593INof
their11594PP$their
brief11595NNbrief
,11596,,
basically11597RBbasically
everything11598NNeverything
is11599VBZbe
up11600RBup
for11601INfor
grabs11602NNSgrab
.11603SENT.
There11604EXthere
can11605MDcan
be11606VBbe
no11607DTno
mens11608NPmens
rea11609NPrea
.11610SENT.
They11611PPthey
can11612MDcan
make11613VVmake
everything11614NNeverything
strict11615JJstrict
liability11616NNliability
.11617SENT.
Duress11618NNduress
,11619,,
self-defense11620NNself-defense
,11621,,
all11622RBall
of11623INof
these11624DTthese
defenses11625NNSdefense
are11626VBPbe
on11627INon
the11628DTthe
line11629NNline
because11630INbecause
,11631,,
according11632VVGaccord
to11633TOto
them11634PPthem
,11635,,
all11636DTall
that11637WDTthat
's11638VBZbe
required11639VVNrequire
in11640INin
Kansas11641NPKansas
is11642VBZbe
a11643DTa
voluntary11644JJvoluntary
act11645NNact
and11646CCand
intentionality11647NNintentionality
.11648SENT.
And11649CCand
,11650,,
finally11651RBfinally
,11652,,
turning11653VVGturn
back11654RBback
to11655TOto
history11656NNhistory
,11657,,
it11658PPit
's11659VBZbe
just11660RBjust
not11661RBnot
right11662JJright
to11663TOto
say11664VVsay
that11665IN/thatthat
the11666DTthe
right11667NNright
and11668CCand
wrong11669JJwrong
principle11670NNprinciple
is11671VBZbe
a11672DTa
19th11673JJ19th
Century11674NNcentury
invention11675NNinvention
.11676SENT.
There11677EXthere
is11678VBZbe
a11679DTa
wall11680NNwall
of11681INof
cases11682NNScase
and11683CCand
authorities11684NNSauthority
starting11685VVGstart
in11686INin
the11687DTthe
1500s11688JJ1500s
and11689CCand
continuing11690JJcontinuing
,11691,,
uninterrupted11692JJuninterrupted
,11693,,
all11694RBall
the11695DTthe
way11696NNway
through11697INthrough
until11698INuntil
184311699CD@card@
when11700WRBwhen
M'Naghten11701NPM'Naghten
was11702VBDbe
formed11703VVNform
.11704SENT.
There11705EXthere
's11706VBZbe
literally11707RBliterally
scores11708NNSscore
of11709INof
cases11710NNScase
,11711,,
here11712RBhere
and11713CCand
in11714INin
England11715NPEngland
,11716,,
applying11717VVGapply
the11718DTthe
right11719NNright
and11720CCand
wrong11721JJwrong
principle11722NNprinciple
.11723SENT.
To11724TOTo
contrast11725VVcontrast
that11726IN/thatthat
with11727INwith
the11728DTthe
test11729NNtest
that11730IN/thatthat
they11731PPthey
suggest11732VVPsuggest
,11733,,
which11734WDTwhich
is11735VBZbe
essentially11736RBessentially
the11737DTthe
wild11738JJwild
beast11739NNbeast
test11740NNtest
,11741,,
that11742WDTthat
was11743VBDbe
invoked11744VVNinvoke
maybe11745RBmaybe
two11746CDtwo
or11747CCor
three11748CDthree
times11749NNStime
.11750SENT.
It11751PPit
was11752VBDbe
a11753DTa
blip11754NNblip
.11755SENT.
So11756RBso
history11757NNhistory
favors11758VVZfavor
us11759PPus
.11760SENT.
And11761CCand
although11762INalthough
due11763JJdue
process11764NNprocess
is11765VBZbe
a11766DTa
rigorous11767JJrigorous
burden11768NNburden
for11769INfor
a11770DTa
petitioner11771NNpetitioner
to11772TOto
meet11773VVmeet
,11774,,
we11775PPwe
satisfy11776VVPsatisfy
it11777PPit
here11778RBhere
because11779INbecause
they11780PPthey
have11781VHPhave
taken11782VVNtake
something11783NNsomething
out11784RPout
of11785INof
our11786PP$our
fundamental11787JJfundamental
criminal11788JJcriminal
culpability11789NNculpability
,11790,,
what11791WPwhat
we11792PPwe
believe11793VVPbelieve
as11794INas
a11795DTa
country11796NNcountry
,11797,,
they11798PPthey
have11799VHPhave
scraped11800VVNscrape
it11801PPit
out11802RPout
and11803CCand
they11804PPthey
are11805VBPbe
punishing11806VVGpunish
the11807DTthe
insane11808NNinsane
as11809INas
a11810DTa
result11811NNresult
.11812SENT.
If11813INif
this11814DTthis
Court11815NPCourt
has11816VHZhave
no11817DTno
further11818JJRfurther
questions11819NNSquestion
,11820,,
we11821PPwe
would11822MDwould
ask11823VVask
you11824PPyou
to11825TOto
please11826VVplease
...11827:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]11828LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well11829UHwell
,11830,,
I11831PPI
would11832MDwould
...11833:...
[MS. SCHRUP]11834LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...11835:...
reverse11836VVreverse
the11837DTthe
case11838NNcase
.11839SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]11840LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...11841:...
ask11842VVask
you11843PPyou
a11844DTa
question11845NNquestion
if11846INif
you11847PPyou
...11848:...
if11849INif
you11850PPyou
've11851VHPhave
finished11852VVNfinish
your11853PP$your
...11854:...
your11855PP$your
...11856:...
the11857DTthe
comments11858NNScomment
that11859WDTthat
you11860PPyou
want11861VVPwant
to11862TOto
make11863VVmake
.11864SENT.
In11865INin
your11866PP$your
reply11867NNreply
brief11868NNbrief
you11869PPyou
say11870VVPsay
that11871IN/thatthat
the11872DTthe
state11873NNstate
's11874POS's
premise11875NNpremise
is11876VBZbe
that11877IN/thatthat
insanity11878NNinsanity
was11879VBDbe
traditionally11880RBtraditionally
tied11881VVNtie
to11882TOto
a11883DTa
lack11884NNlack
of11885INof
mens11886NPmens
rea11887NPrea
.11888SENT.
And11889CCand
you11890PPyou
say11891VVPsay
...11892:...
you11893PPyou
agree11894VVPagree
with11895INwith
that11896DTthat
,11897,,
right11898RBright
?11899SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]11900LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
It11901PPit
was11902VBDbe
tied11903VVNtie
to11904TOto
common11905JJcommon
law11906NNlaw
intent11907NNintent
,11908,,
if11909INif
we11910PPwe
use11911VVPuse
the11912DTthe
term11913NNterm
mens11914NPmens
rea11915NPrea
,11916,,
but11917CCbut
it11918PPit
was11919VBDbe
tied11920VVNtie
to11921TOto
common11922JJcommon
law11923NNlaw
intent11924NNintent
,11925,,
which11926WDTwhich
is11927VBZbe
a11928DTa
very11929RBvery
different11930JJdifferent
term11931NNterm
than11932INthan
what11933WPwhat
they11934PPthey
used11935VVDuse
,11936,,
Justice11937NPJustice
Alito11938NPAlito
.11939SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]11940LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Well11941UHwell
,11942,,
you11943PPyou
...11944:...
I11945PPI
...11946:...
I11947PPI
'll11948MDwill
quote11949VVquote
you11950PPyou
:11951::
"11952``"
The11953DTthe
state11954NNstate
's11955POS's
premise11956NNpremise
is11957VBZbe
that11958IN/thatthat
insanity11959NNinsanity
was11960VBDbe
traditionally11961RBtraditionally
tied11962VVNtie
to11963TOto
a11964DTa
lack11965NNlack
of11966INof
mens11967NPmens
rea11968NPrea
,11969,,
true11970JJtrue
,11971,,
but11972CCbut
mens11973NPmens
rea11974NPrea
historically11975RBhistorically
required11976VVDrequire
precisely11977RBprecisely
the11978DTthe
moral11979JJmoral
blame11980NNblame
worthiness11981NNworthiness
that11982IN/thatthat
Kansas11983NPKansas
law11984NNlaw
now11985RBnow
excludes11986VVZexclude
.11987SENT.
"11988''"
So11989RBso
that11990DTthat
's11991VBZbe
your11992PP$your
historical11993JJhistorical
position11994NNposition
.11995SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]11996LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
That11997DTthat
's11998VBZbe
half11999NNhalf
of12000INof
our12001PP$our
...12002:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]12003LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
And12004CCand
how12005WRBhow
do12006VVPdo
you12007PPyou
reconcile12008VVreconcile
that12009IN/thatthat
with12010INwith
the12011DTthe
fact12012NNfact
that12013IN/thatthat
mens12014NPmens
rea12015NPrea
does12016VVZdo
not12017RBnot
vary12018VVvary
from12019INfrom
crime12020NNcrime
to12021TOto
crime12022NNcrime
?12023SENT?
So12024RBso
if12025INif
that12026DTthat
was12027VBDbe
the12028DTthe
understanding12029NNunderstanding
of12030INof
mens12031NPmens
rea12032NPrea
,12033,,
that12034WDTthat
would12035MDwould
apply12036VVapply
in12037INin
every12038DTevery
case12039NNcase
and12040CCand
there12041EXthere
would12042MDwould
have12043VHhave
to12044TOto
be12045VBbe
moral12046JJmoral
blame12047NNblame
worthiness12048NNworthiness
in12049INin
every12050DTevery
case12051NNcase
,12052,,
not12053RBnot
just12054RBjust
those12055DTthose
where12056WRBwhere
the12057DTthe
...12058:...
the12059DTthe
...12060:...
the12061DTthe
lack12062NNlack
of12063INof
blame12064NNblame
worthiness12065NNworthiness
is12066VBZbe
attributable12067JJattributable
to12068TOto
mental12069JJmental
...12070:...
to12071TOto
a12072DTa
mental12073JJmental
disorder12074NNdisorder
,12075,,
however12076RBhowever
that12077DTthat
is12078VBZbe
defined12079VVNdefine
?12080SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]12081LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
If12082INif
I12083PPI
'm12084VBPbe
understanding12085VVGunderstand
your12086PP$your
question12087NNquestion
,12088,,
Justice12089NPJustice
Alito12090NPAlito
,12091,,
yes12092UHyes
,12093,,
mens12094NPmens
rea12095NPrea
,12096,,
but12097CCbut
mens12098NPmens
rea12099NPrea
historically12100RBhistorically
or12101CCor
common12102JJcommon
law12103NNlaw
intent12104NNintent
always12105RBalways
contained12106VVDcontain
this12107DTthis
moral12108JJmoral
component12109NNcomponent
,12110,,
this12111RBthis
...12112:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]12113LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
Then12114RBthen
it12115PPit
would12116MDwould
...12117:...
[MS. SCHRUP]12118LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...12119:...
intent12120NNintent
to12121TOto
harm12122VVharm
.12123SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]12124LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...12125:...
apply12126VVapply
across12127INacross
the12128DTthe
board12129NNboard
.12130SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]12131LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
It12132PPit
would12133MDwould
,12134,,
with12135INwith
the12136DTthe
exception12137NNexception
of12138INof
...12139:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]12140LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
It12141PPit
would12142MDwould
apply12143VVapply
...12144:...
[MS. SCHRUP]12145LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
...12146:...
perhaps12147RBperhaps
...12148:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]12149LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...12150:...
to12151TOto
the12152DTthe
person12153NNperson
who12154WPwho
said12155VVDsay
I12156PPI
assassinated12157VVDassassinate
this12158DTthis
political12159JJpolitical
leader12160NNleader
because12161INbecause
he12162PPhe
is12163VBZbe
an12164DTan
evil12165JJevil
person12166NNperson
...12167:...
[MS. SCHRUP]12168LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Oh12169NPOh
.12170SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]12171LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...12172:...
and12173CCand
he12174PPhe
is12175VBZbe
going12176VVGgo
to12177TOto
do12178VVdo
evil12179JJevil
things12180NNSthing
.12181SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]12182LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
No12183NPNo
,12184,,
Justice12185NPJustice
Alito12186NPAlito
,12187,,
because12188INbecause
the12189DTthe
only12190JJonly
people12191NNSpeople
that12192WDTthat
were12193VBDbe
...12194:...
that12195IN/thatthat
this12196DTthis
has12197VHZhave
traditionally12198RBtraditionally
been12199VBNbe
applied12200VVNapply
to12201TOto
are12202VBPbe
the12203DTthe
insane12204JJinsane
and12205CCand
maybe12206RBmaybe
infants12207NNSinfant
and12208CCand
that12209DTthat
's12210VBZbe
what12211WPwhat
...12212:...
[JUSTICE ALITO]12213LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
And12214CCand
that12215DTthat
's12216VBZbe
what12217WPwhat
you12218PPyou
are12219VBPbe
arguing12220VVGargue
for12221INfor
,12222,,
a12223DTa
separate12224JJseparate
insanity12225NNinsanity
defense12226NNdefense
,12227,,
and12228CCand
that12229WDTthat
was12230VBDbe
M'Naghten12231JJM'Naghten
.12232SENT.
But12233CCbut
that12234DTthat
's12235VBZbe
inconsistent12236JJinconsistent
with12237INwith
the12238DTthe
historical12239JJhistorical
record12240NNrecord
as12241INas
you12242PPyou
,12243,,
yourself12244PPyourself
,12245,,
understand12246VVunderstand
it12247PPit
,12248,,
which12249WDTwhich
is12250VBZbe
that12251IN/thatthat
it12252PPit
was12253VBDbe
tied12254VVNtie
to12255TOto
mens12256NPmens
rea12257NPrea
,12258,,
which12259WDTwhich
is12260VBZbe
categorical12261JJcategorical
,12262,,
applies12263VVZapply
in12264INin
every12265DTevery
single12266JJsingle
case12267NNcase
.12268SENT.
What12269WPWhat
...12270:...
what12271WPwhat
is12272VBZbe
wrong12273JJwrong
with12274INwith
that12275DTthat
?12276SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]12277LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Our12278PP$our
position12279NNposition
is12280VBZbe
that12281IN/thatthat
to12282TOto
the12283DTthe
extent12284NNextent
it12285PPit
was12286VBDbe
tied12287VVNtie
to12288TOto
mens12289NPmens
rea12290NPrea
,12291,,
inherent12292JJinherent
in12293INin
the12294DTthe
notion12295NNnotion
of12296INof
mens12297NPmens
rea12298NPrea
was12299VBDbe
the12300DTthe
ability12301NNability
to12302TOto
choose12303VVchoose
between12304INbetween
right12305NNright
and12306CCand
wrong12307JJwrong
.12308SENT.
So12309RBso
that12310DTthat
is12311VBZbe
very12312RBvery
different12313JJdifferent
.12314SENT.
That12315DTthat
is12316VBZbe
very12317RBvery
different12318JJdifferent
than12319INthan
what12320WPwhat
Kansas12321NPKansas
has12322VHZhave
today12323NNtoday
,12324,,
which12325WDTwhich
has12326VHZhave
no12327DTno
inquiry12328NNinquiry
into12329INinto
that12330DTthat
.12331SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]12332LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
I12333PPI
mean12334VVPmean
,12335,,
these12336DTthese
18th12337JJ18th
Century12338NNcentury
cases12339NNScase
that12340WDTthat
talk12341VVPtalk
about12342INabout
moral12343JJmoral
capability12344NNcapability
or12345CCor
lack12346NNlack
thereof12347RBthereof
in12348INin
mens12349NPmens
rea12350NPrea
in12351INin
the12352DTthe
same12353JJsame
breadth12354NNbreadth
are12355VBPbe
hard12356JJhard
to12357TOto
understand12358VVunderstand
,12359,,
but12360CCbut
you12361PPyou
have12362VHPhave
to12363TOto
take12364VVtake
into12365INinto
account12366NNaccount
...12367:...
may12368MDmay
I12369PPI
finish12370VVfinish
my12371PP$my
sentence12372NNsentence
...12373:...
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12374LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Certainly12375RBcertainly
.12376SENT.
[JUSTICE ALITO]12377LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
...12378:...
Mr12379NPMr
.12380SENT.
Chief12381NPChief
Justice12382NPJustice
?12383SENT?
[12384SYM[
LAUGHTER12385NNlaughter
]12386SYM]
[JUSTICE ALITO]12387LOC[JUSTICE ALITO]
That12388IN/thatthat
you12389PPyou
have12390VHPhave
to12391TOto
take12392VVtake
into12393INinto
account12394NNaccount
that12395IN/thatthat
people12396NNSpeople
...12397:...
that12398IN/thatthat
the12399DTthe
18th12400JJ18th
Century12401NNcentury
and12402CCand
early12403JJearly
19th12404JJ19th
Century12405NNcentury
understanding12406NNunderstanding
of12407INof
how12408WRBhow
the12409DTthe
human12410JJhuman
mind12411NNmind
works12412NNSwork
was12413VBDbe
very12414RBvery
different12415JJdifferent
from12416INfrom
what12417WPwhat
we12418PPwe
have12419VHPhave
today12420NNtoday
.12421SENT.
There12422EXthere
was12423VBDbe
n't12424RBn't
even12425RBeven
any12426DTany
...12427:...
any12428DTany
such12429JJsuch
thing12430NNthing
as12431INas
psychiatry12432NNpsychiatry
in12433INin
179112434CD@card@
and12435CCand
it12436PPit
was12437VBDbe
in12438INin
its12439PP$its
infancy12440NNinfancy
in12441INin
186812442CD@card@
.12443SENT.
Is12444VBZbe
that12445IN/thatthat
wrong12446JJwrong
?12447SENT?
[MS. SCHRUP]12448LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
Mr12449NPMr
.12450SENT.
Chief12451NPChief
Justice12452NPJustice
?12453SENT?
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12454LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
You12455PPyou
may12456MDmay
.12457SENT.
[MS. SCHRUP]12458LOC[MS. SCHRUP]
I12459PPI
want12460VVPwant
to12461TOto
answer12462VVanswer
this12463DTthis
succinctly12464RBsuccinctly
.12465SENT.
It12466PPit
's12467VBZbe
not12468RBnot
about12469RBabout
what12470WPwhat
mental12471JJmental
illness12472NNillness
was12473VBDbe
or12474CCor
was12475VBDbe
n't12476RBn't
.12477SENT.
It12478PPit
's12479VBZbe
about12480RBabout
how12481WRBhow
we12482PPwe
treated12483VVDtreat
insane12484JJinsane
people12485NNSpeople
,12486,,
this12487DTthis
narrow12488JJnarrow
group12489NNgroup
of12490INof
them12491PPthem
.12492SENT.
I12493PPI
think12494VVPthink
everybody12495NNeverybody
knows12496VVZknow
who12497WPwho
they12498PPthey
are12499VBPbe
when12500WRBwhen
they12501PPthey
are12502VBPbe
forced12503VVNforce
to12504TOto
decide12505VVdecide
it12506PPit
.12507SENT.
And12508CCand
it12509PPit
's12510VBZbe
about12511RBabout
not12512RBnot
punishing12513VVGpunish
people12514NNSpeople
who12515WPwho
do12516VVPdo
n't12517RBn't
know12518VVknow
right12519RBright
from12520INfrom
wrong12521JJwrong
.12522SENT.
Thank12523VVthank
you12524PPyou
.12525SENT.
[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12526LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]
Thank12527VVthank
you12528PPyou
,12529,,
counsel12530NNcounsel
.12531SENT.
The12532DTthe
case12533NNcase
is12534VBZbe
submitted12535VVNsubmit
.12536SENT.