<s> /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/ptreetagger/Kahler.xml-src.tt /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/corpora/SUPREMECOURTUSV4-3/treetagger/Kahler.xml-out.tt pos tagset built from model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par en lemma of the model /Users/loicliegeois/TXM-0.8.1/treetagger-models/en.par - [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]1LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] We2PPwe 'll3MDwill hear4VVhear argument5NNargument first6RBfirst this7DTthis term8NNterm in9INin Case10NPCase Number11NPNumber 18-613512CD@card@ ,13,, Kahler14NPKahler versus15CCversus Kansas16NPKansas .17SENT. Ms18NNMs .19SENT. Schrup20NPSchrup .21SENT.

[MS. SCHRUP]22LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Mr23NPMr .24SENT. Chief25NPChief Justice26NPJustice ,27,, and28CCand may29MDmay it30PPit please31VVplease the32DTthe Court33NPCourt :34:: For35INfor centuries36NNScentury ,37,, criminal38JJcriminal culpability39NNculpability has40VHZhave hinged41VVNhinge on42INon the43DTthe capacity44NNcapacity for45INfor moral46JJmoral judgment47NNjudgment ,48,, to49TOto discern50VVdiscern and51CCand to52TOto choose53VVchoose between54INbetween right55NNright and56CCand wrong57JJwrong .58SENT. The59DTthe insane60JJinsane lack61NNlack that62DTthat capacity63NNcapacity .64SENT. This65DTthis understanding66NNunderstanding of67INof insanity68NNinsanity has69VHZhave persisted70VVNpersist since71INsince the72DTthe 1500s73JJ1500s and74CCand remains75VVZremain the76DTthe rule77NNrule in78INin 4879CD@card@ jurisdictions80NNSjurisdiction today81NNtoday .82SENT. But83CCbut Kansas84NPKansas scrubs85VVZscrub moral86JJmoral capacity87NNcapacity from88INfrom its89PP$its criminal90JJcriminal law91NNlaw and92CCand runs93VVZrun afoul94RBafoul of95INof the96DTthe Fourteenth97NNfourteenth and98CCand the99DTthe Eighth100JJeighth Amendments101NNSamendment .102SENT. Kansas103NPKansas rewrites104VVZrewrite history105NNhistory in106INin two107CDtwo ways108NNSway ,109,, first110JJfirst by111INby elevating112VVGelevate the113DTthe wild114JJwild beast115NNbeast test116NNtest ,117,, one118CDone that119WDTthat was120VBDbe never121RBnever used122VVNuse in123INin this124DTthis country125NNcountry and126CCand only127RBonly rarely128RBrarely in129INin England130NPEngland ,131,, and132CCand secondly133RBsecondly by134INby conflating135VVGconflate common136JJcommon law137NNlaw intent138NNintent ,139,, which140WDTwhich required141VVDrequire a142DTa vicious143JJvicious will144NNwill and145CCand was146VBDbe bound147VVNbind up148RPup in149INin moral150JJmoral capacity151NNcapacity ,152,, with153INwith the154DTthe ...155:... what156WPwhat it157PPit applies158VVZapply today159NNtoday ,160,, a161DTa morality-free162JJmorality-free modern163JJmodern mens164NPmens rea165NPrea .166SENT. As167INas such168JJsuch ,169,, Kansas170NPKansas uproots171VVZuproot the172DTthe deeply173RBdeeply rooted174VVNroot by175INby eliminating176VVGeliminate any177DTany mechanism178NNmechanism to179TOto assess180VVassess whether181INwhether a182DTa defendant183NNdefendant 's184POS's capacity185NNcapacity for186INfor moral187JJmoral judgment188NNjudgment was189VBDbe intact190JJintact or191CCor was192VBDbe irretrievably193RBirretrievably compromised194VVNcompromise by195INby mental196JJmental illness197NNillness .198SENT. Now199RBnow ,200,, I201PPI 'd202MDwould like203VVlike to204TOto turn205VVturn briefly206RBbriefly to207TOto due208JJdue process209NNprocess first210RBfirst and211CCand explain212VVexplain why213WRBwhy the214DTthe moral215JJmoral capacity216NNcapacity notion217NNnotion is218VBZbe and219CCand always220RBalways has221VHZhave been222VBNbe fundamental223JJfundamental in224INin our225PP$our system226NNsystem .227SENT. The228DTthe model229NNmodel penal230JJpenal code231NNcode is232VBZbe an233DTan excellent234JJexcellent example235NNexample .236SENT. As237INas criminal238JJcriminal law239NNlaw evolved240VVDevolve ,241,, the242DTthe drafters243NNSdrafter moved244VVDmove to245TOto more246JJRmore precise247JJprecise mental248JJmental states249NNSstate .250SENT. When251WRBwhen they252PPthey did253VVDdo that254IN/thatthat ,255,, though256RBthough ,257,, they258PPthey retained259VVDretain the260DTthe compelling261JJcompelling mechanism262NNmechanism to263TOto show264VVshow insanity265NNinsanity .266SENT. We267PPwe could268MDcould do269VVdo that270IN/thatthat ,271,, the272DTthe drafters273NNSdrafter said274VVDsay ,275,, because276INbecause we277PPwe kept278VVDkeep this279DTthis ,280,, this281DTthis narrow282JJnarrow remnant283NNremnant of284INof common285JJcommon law286NNlaw criminality287NNcriminality .288SENT. In289INin Clark290NPClark ,291,, too292RBtoo ,293,, this294DTthis Court295NPCourt recognized296VVNrecognize both297CCboth the298DTthe presumption299NNpresumption of300INof sanity301NNsanity and302CCand that303DTthat evidence304NNevidence of305INof insanity306NNinsanity trumps307VVZtrump mens308NPmens rea309NPrea .310SENT. This311DTthis demonstrates312VVZdemonstrate the313DTthe continued314JJcontinued need315NNneed for316INfor a317DTa mechanism318NNmechanism to319TOto rebut320VVrebut the321DTthe presumption322NNpresumption of323INof sanity324NNsanity ,325,, even326RBeven when327WRBwhen ...328:... even329RBeven though330INthough a331DTa defendant332NNdefendant harbors333VVZharbor the334DTthe requisite335JJrequisite mental336JJmental state337NNstate .338SENT. And339CCand it340PPit was341VBDbe not342RBnot only343RBonly the344DTthe mechanism345NNmechanism that346WDTthat was347VBDbe important348JJimportant in349INin Clark350NPClark ;351:; the352DTthe substance353NNsubstance was354VBDbe too355RBtoo .356SENT. This357DTthis Court358NPCourt said359VVDsay Arizona360NPArizona could361MDcould do362VVdo that363IN/thatthat ,364,, it365PPit could366MDcould eliminate367VVeliminate the368DTthe first369JJfirst part370NNpart of371INof the372DTthe M'Naghten373JJM'Naghten test374NNtest ,375,, because376INbecause it377PPit kept378VVDkeep this379DTthis ,380,, the381DTthe right382NNright and383CCand wrong384JJwrong principle385NNprinciple that386WDTthat subsumes387VVZsubsume it388PPit .389SENT. So390RBso I391PPI 'd392MDwould like393VVlike to394TOto now395RBnow turn396VVturn back397RBback to398TOto history399NNhistory because400INbecause it401PPit can402MDcan be403VBbe ...404:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]405LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] Well406UHWell ,407,, before408INbefore you409PPyou do410VVPdo that411IN/thatthat ,412,, you413PPyou 're414VBPbe relying415VVGrely on416INon due417JJdue process418NNprocess .419SENT. And420CCand suppose421VVPsuppose a422DTa state423NNstate decides424VVZdecide it425PPit wants426VVZwant to427TOto rethink428VVrethink the429DTthe insanity430NNinsanity defense431NNdefense .432SENT. It433PPit looks434VVZlook to435TOto other436JJother nations437NNSnation for438INfor models439NNSmodel .440SENT. And441CCand one442PPone is443VBZbe what444WPwhat 's445VBZbe known446VVNknow as447INas a448DTa ...449:... as450INas a451DTa judgment452NNjudgment of453INof guilty454JJguilty but455CCbut insane456JJinsane ;457:; that458WDTthat is459VBZbe ,460,, two461CDtwo determinants462NNSdeterminant are463VBPbe made464VVNmake .465SENT. Did466VVDdo the467DTthe defendant468NNdefendant do469VVPdo the470DTthe act471NNact with472INwith which473WDTwhich he474PPhe is475VBZbe charged476VVNcharge ?477SENT? That478DTthat 's479VBZbe the480DTthe first481JJfirst question482NNquestion .483SENT. And484CCand the485DTthe second486JJsecond question487NNquestion is488VBZbe ,489,, what490WPwhat is491VBZbe the492DTthe proper493JJproper incapacitation494NNincapacitation ?495SENT? So496RBso guilty497JJguilty but498CCbut insane499JJinsane would500MDwould lead501VVlead to502TOto incapacitation503NNincapacitation in504INin a505DTa mental506JJmental institution507NNinstitution .508SENT. Guilty509JJguilty and510CCand not511RBnot insane512JJinsane would513MDwould lead514VVlead to515TOto incarceration516NNincarceration in517INin prison518NNprison .519SENT. Would520MDwould such521JJsuch a522DTa scheme523NNscheme ,524,, if525INif adopted526VVNadopt by527INby a528DTa state529NNstate of530INof the531DTthe United532NPUnited States533NPStates ,534,, violate535VVPviolate due536JJdue process537NNprocess ?538SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]539LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Yes540NPYes ,541,, it542PPit would543MDwould ,544,, Justice545NPJustice Ginsburg546NPGinsburg .547SENT. And548CCand I549PPI think550VVPthink it551PPit would552MDwould because553INbecause the554DTthe conviction555NNconviction itself556PPitself carries557VVZcarry collateral558NNcollateral consequences559NNSconsequence that560RBthat ...561:... and562CCand we563PPwe have564VHPhave never565RBnever ,566,, as567INas a568DTa country569NNcountry ,570,, treated571VVDtreat the572DTthe insane573NNinsane as574INas culpable575JJculpable .576SENT. And577CCand that578DTthat conviction579NNconviction would580MDwould ...581:... would582MDwould impose583VVimpose collateral584NNcollateral consequences585NNSconsequence on586INon the587DTthe insane588JJinsane person589NNperson who590WPwho really591RBreally should592MDshould be593VBbe excused594VVNexcuse .595SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]596LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] But597CCbut I598PPI ...599:... I600PPI would601MDwould have602VHhave thought603VVNthink you604PPyou would605MDwould want606VVwant collateral607NNcollateral consequences608NNSconsequence imposed609VVDimpose ,610,, as611INas I612PPI understood613VVDunderstand your614PP$your submission615NNsubmission ,616,, because617INbecause the618DTthe idea619NNidea is620VBZbe that621IN/thatthat someone622NNsomeone acquitted623VVNacquit by624INby reason625NNreason of626INof insanity627NNinsanity would628MDwould not629RBnot go630VVgo free631JJfree but632CCbut would633MDwould instead634RBinstead be635VBbe committed636VVNcommit to637TOto mental638JJmental care639NNcare .640SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]641LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Yes642NPYes ,643,, that644WDTthat 's645VBZbe right646JJright ,647,, Your648PP$your Honor649NPHonor .650SENT. But651CCbut ...652:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]653LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Well654UHWell ,655,, why656WRBwhy would657MDwould n't658RBn't that659RBthat ...660:... if661INif that662WDTthat 's663VBZbe the664DTthe consequence665NNconsequence of666INof the667DTthe system668NNsystem Justice669NPJustice Ginsburg670NPGinsburg was671VBDbe talking672VVGtalk about673RBabout ,674,, guilty675JJguilty but676CCbut insane677JJinsane ,678,, I679PPI do680VVPdo n't681RBn't understand682VVunderstand why683WRBwhy that684DTthat 's685VBZbe not686RBnot exactly687RBexactly the688DTthe sort689NNsort of690INof course691NNcourse you692PPyou 're693VBPbe looking694VVGlook for695INfor .696SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]697LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well698UHwell ,699,, I700PPI want701VVPwant to702TOto rewind703VVrewind a704DTa little705JJlittle bit706NNbit ,707,, Your708PP$your Honor709NPHonor ,710,, because711INbecause really712RBreally what713WPwhat we714PPwe 're715VBPbe talking716VVGtalk about717RBabout is718VBZbe the719DTthe mechanism720NNmechanism to721TOto be722VBbe able723JJable to724TOto show725VVshow that726IN/thatthat you727PPyou lack728VVPlack moral729JJmoral capacity730NNcapacity .731SENT. The732DTthe back733JJback end734NNend of735INof it736PPit ,737,, as738RBas long739RBlong as740INas you741PPyou have742VHPhave the743DTthe mechanism744NNmechanism to745TOto show746VVshow that747IN/thatthat you748PPyou lack749VVPlack moral750JJmoral capacity751NNcapacity ,752,, that753WDTthat you754PPyou can755MDcan choose756VVchoose right757RBright from758INfrom wrong759JJwrong or760CCor can761MDcan 't762RB't do763VVPdo that764IN/thatthat ,765,, then766RBthen the767DTthe ultimate768JJultimate result769NNresult is770VBZbe not771RBnot all772PDTall that773DTthat determinative774NNdeterminative .775SENT. If776INif guilty777JJguilty but778CCbut insane779JJinsane means780NNSmean that781WDTthat you782PPyou ...783:... if784INif ...785:... if786INif you787PPyou end788VVPend up789RPup in790INin exactly791RBexactly the792DTthe same793JJsame place794NNplace ,795,, then796RBthen I797PPI suppose798VVPsuppose the799DTthe label800NNlabel does801VVZdo n't802RBn't matter803VVmatter ,804,, but805CCbut what806WPwhat I807PPI 'm808VBPbe nervous809JJnervous about810RBabout ,811,, actually812RBactually ,813,, is814VBZbe if815INif you816PPyou have817VHPhave a818DTa guilty819JJguilty but820CCbut insane821JJinsane ,822,, some823DTsome of824INof those825DTthose statutes826NNSstatute in827INin some828DTsome jurisdictions829NNSjurisdiction are830VBPbe you831PPyou 're832VBPbe guilty833JJguilty ,834,, you835PPyou go836VVPgo and837CCand get838VVPget treatment839NNtreatment ,840,, and841CCand then842RBthen once843RBonce you844PPyou are845VBPbe ...846:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]847LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] My848NPMy ...849:... [MS. SCHRUP]850LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...851:... well852RBwell ...853:... [JUSTICE GINSBURG]854LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] My855PP$my hypothetical856JJhypothetical is857VBZbe the858DTthe question859NNquestion of860INof where861WRBwhere the862DTthe person863NNperson is864VBZbe incarcerated865VVNincarcerate is866VBZbe determined867VVNdetermine second868JJsecond .869SENT. It870PPit has871VHZhave no872DTno collateral873NNcollateral consequences874NNSconsequence .875SENT. You876PPyou 're877VBPbe found878VVNfind to879TOto have880VHhave committed881VVNcommit the882DTthe conduct883NNconduct charged884VVDcharge ,885,, but886CCbut because887INbecause you888PPyou are889VBPbe insane890JJinsane ,891,, you892PPyou go893VVPgo to894TOto a895DTa mental896JJmental institution897NNinstitution .898SENT. So899RBso it900PPit would901MDwould take902VVtake out903RPout any904DTany collateral905NNcollateral consequences906NNSconsequence that907WDTthat would908MDwould label909VVlabel you910PPyou on911INon the912DTthe criminal913JJcriminal side914NNside .915SENT. It916PPit 's917VBZbe just918RBjust you919PPyou have920VHPhave committed921VVNcommit the922DTthe deed923NNdeed that924IN/thatthat you925PPyou were926VBDbe charged927VVNcharge with928INwith ,929,, but930CCbut you931PPyou were932VBDbe insane933JJinsane ;934:; therefore935RBtherefore ,936,, you937PPyou go938VVPgo to939TOto mental940JJmental institution941NNinstitution .942SENT. That943RBthat ,944,, you945PPyou think946VVPthink ,947,, would948MDwould violate949VVviolate due950JJdue process951NNprocess ?952SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]953LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well954UHWell ,955,, Your956PP$your Honor957NPHonor ,958,, I959PPI ...960:... you961PPyou know962VVPknow ,963,, to964TOto the965DTthe extent966NNextent ...967:... so968RBso I969PPI guess970VVPguess I971PPI would972MDwould go973VVgo back974RBback to975TOto history976NNhistory on977INon this978DTthis .979SENT. And980CCand what981WPwhat we982PPwe know983VVPknow is984VBZbe that985IN/thatthat these986DTthese people987NNSpeople were988VBDbe not989RBnot even990RBeven subject991JJsubject to992TOto prosecution993NNprosecution at994INat all995DTall .996SENT. Hawkins997NPHawkins ,998,, in999INin his1000PP$his Plea1001NNplea of1002INof the1003DTthe Crown1004NPCrown ,1005,, said1006VVDsay so1007RBso .1008SENT. But1009CCbut as1010RBas long1011RBlong as1012RBas ...1013:... the1014DTthe mechanism1015NNmechanism ...1016:... as1017RBas long1018RBlong as1019INas the1020DTthe mechanism1021NNmechanism for1022INfor the1023DTthe defendant1024NNdefendant to1025TOto present1026VVpresent his1027PP$his lack1028NNlack of1029INof moral1030JJmoral capability1031NNcapability at1032INat the1033DTthe back1034JJback end1035NNend ,1036,, if1037INif the1038DTthe regime1039NNregime protects1040VVZprotect him1041PPhim in1042INin that1043DTthat way1044NNway .1045SENT. But1046CCbut I1047PPI also1048RBalso disagree1049VVPdisagree ,1050,, Your1051PP$your Honor1052NPHonor ,1053,, that1054IN/thatthat the1055DTthe conviction1056NNconviction does1057VVZdo n't1058RBn't stigmatize1059VVstigmatize or1060CCor show1061VVshow that1062IN/thatthat he1063PPhe is1064VBZbe guilty1065JJguilty .1066SENT. I1067PPI mean1068VVPmean ,1069,, if1070INif you1071PPyou 're1072VBPbe found1073VVNfind guilty1074JJguilty ,1075,, you1076PPyou have1077VHPhave that1078DTthat conviction1079NNconviction .1080SENT. I1081PPI do1082VVPdo think1083VVthink that1084IN/thatthat the1085DTthe insane1086JJinsane need1087NNneed mental1088JJmental treatment1089NNtreatment .1090SENT. They1091PPthey need1092VVPneed commitment1093NNcommitment .1094SENT. So1095RBso I1096PPI guess1097VVPguess I1098PPI 'm1099VBPbe not1100RBnot ...1101:... unless1102INunless I1103PPI 'm1104VBPbe missing1105VVGmiss your1106PP$your point1107NNpoint ,1108,, I1109PPI believe1110VVPbelieve it1111PPit 's1112VBZbe more1113JJRmore about1114INabout the1115DTthe mechanism1116NNmechanism and1117CCand not1118RBnot allowing1119VVGallow a1120DTa conviction1121NNconviction of1122INof an1123DTan insane1124JJinsane person1125NNperson .1126SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1127LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] You1128PPyou 're1129VBPbe talking1130VVGtalk about1131INabout lack1132NNlack of1133INof moral1134JJmoral capacity1135NNcapacity .1136SENT. Would1137MDwould it1138PPit be1139VBbe unconstitutional1140JJunconstitutional if1141INif a1142DTa state1143NNstate said1144VVDsay that1145IN/thatthat a1146DTa person1147NNperson is1148VBZbe sane1149JJsane if1150INif the1151DTthe person1152NNperson knows1153VVZknow that1154IN/thatthat the1155DTthe act1156NNact is1157VBZbe illegal1158JJillegal ,1159,, even1160RBeven if1161INif the1162DTthe person1163NNperson thinks1164VVZthink that1165IN/thatthat the1166DTthe act1167NNact is1168VBZbe moral1169JJmoral ?1170SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]1171LOC[MS. SCHRUP] So1172INso the1173DTthe right-and-wrong1174NNright-and-wrong principle1175NNprinciple ,1176,, Your1177PP$your Honor1178NPHonor ,1179,, includes1180VVZinclude both1181DTboth knowledge1182NNknowledge of1183INof legal1184JJlegal wrong1185JJwrong and1186CCand knowledge1187NNknowledge of1188INof moral1189JJmoral wrong1190NNwrong .1191SENT. There1192EXthere 's1193VBZbe very1194RBvery little1195JJlittle light1196NNlight between1197INbetween the1198DTthe two1199CDtwo .1200SENT. 61201CD6 So1202RBso ...1203:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1204LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1205UHwell ,1206,, I1207PPI do1208VVPdo n't1209RBn't know1210VVknow that1211IN/thatthat that1212DTthat 's1213VBZbe the1214DTthe case1215NNcase .1216SENT. Someone1217NNsomeone can1218MDcan know1219VVknow that1220DTthat something1221NNsomething is1222VBZbe illegal1223JJillegal but1224CCbut feel1225VVPfeel very1226RBvery strongly1227RBstrongly that1228IN/thatthat it1229PPit is1230VBZbe moral1231JJmoral .1232SENT. So1233RBso what1234WPwhat ...1235:... what1236WPwhat 's1237VBZbe the1238DTthe answer1239NNanswer to1240TOto my1241PP$my question1242NNquestion ?1243SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]1244LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Justice1245NPJustice Alito1246NPAlito ,1247,, it1248PPit 's1249VBZbe not1250RBnot about1251INabout a1252DTa belief1253NNbelief .1254SENT. It1255PPit 's1256VBZbe about1257RBabout a1258DTa capacity1259NNcapacity fueled1260VVNfuel by1261INby mental1262JJmental illness1263NNillness .1264SENT. So1265RBso if1266INif a1267DTa person1268NNperson justifies1269VVZjustify or1270CCor believes1271VVZbelieve that1272IN/thatthat they1273PPthey are1274VBPbe justified1275VVNjustify in1276INin acting1277VVGact in1278INin that1279DTthat way1280NNway ,1281,, they1282PPthey are1283VBPbe not1284RBnot covered1285VVNcover by1286INby this1287DTthis baseline1288JJbaseline standard1289NNstandard .1290SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1291LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] If1292INif the1293DTthe ...1294:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]1295LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What1296WPWhat 's1297VBZbe the1298DTthe answer1299NNanswer ...1300:... [JUSTICE ALITO]1301LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...1302:... person1303NNperson ...1304:... I1305PPI ...1306:... if1307INif the1308DTthe person1309NNperson has1310VHZhave the1311DTthe capacity1312NNcapacity to1313TOto know1314VVknow that1315IN/thatthat what1316WPwhat he1317PPhe did1318VVDdo was1319VBDbe a1320DTa violation1321NNviolation of1322INof the1323DTthe criminal1324JJcriminal law1325NNlaw ,1326,, and1327CCand that1328DTthat 's1329VBZbe the1330DTthe defense1331NNdefense that1332WDTthat is1333VBZbe provided1334VVNprovide by1335INby a1336DTa state1337NNstate ,1338,, is1339VBZbe that1340IN/thatthat unconstitutional1341JJunconstitutional ?1342SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]1343LOC[MS. SCHRUP] No1344NPNo .1345SENT. So1346RBso long1347RBlong as1348INas it1349PPit encompasses1350VVZencompass ...1351:... it1352PPit can1353MDcan 't1354RB't just1355RBjust be1356VBbe that1357IN/thatthat you1358PPyou are1359VBPbe ...1360:... that1361WDTthat you1362PPyou ...1363:... you1364PPyou forget1365VVPforget what1366WPwhat criminal1367JJcriminal law1368NNlaw is1369VBZbe .1370SENT. What1371WPWhat Justice1372NPJustice Breyer1373NPBreyer said1374VVDsay in1375INin the1376DTthe dissent1377NNdissent from1378INfrom the1379DTthe denial1380NNdenial of1381INof cert1382NNcert in1383INin Delling1384NPDelling was1385VBDbe that1386IN/thatthat what1387WPwhat legally1388RBlegally wrong1389JJwrong means1390NNSmean ...1391:... and1392CCand it1393PPit still1394RBstill falls1395VVZfall within1396INwithin the1397DTthe right-and-wrong1398NNright-and-wrong principle1399NNprinciple ,1400,, what1401WPwhat legally1402RBlegally wrong1403JJwrong means1404NNmeans is1405VBZbe that1406IN/thatthat you1407PPyou are1408VBPbe unable1409JJunable to1410TOto comprehend1411VVcomprehend the1412DTthe actual1413JJactual nature1414NNnature of1415INof ...1416:... of1417INof the1418DTthe act1419NNact such1420JJsuch that1421IN/thatthat you1422PPyou believe1423VVPbelieve ,1424,, for1425INfor example1426NNexample ,1427,, that1428WDTthat you1429PPyou 're1430VBPbe falling1431VVGfall into1432INinto a1433DTa defense1434NNdefense .1435SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1436LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1437UHwell ,1438,, there1439EXthere are1440VBPbe many1441JJmany ,1442,, many1443JJmany people1444NNSpeople who1445WPwho believe1446VVPbelieve ,1447,, maybe1448RBmaybe not1449RBnot so1450RBso much1451JJmuch for1452INfor murder1453NNmurder ,1454,, but1455CCbut certainly1456RBcertainly for1457INfor a1458DTa lot1459NNlot of1460INof other1461JJother offenses1462NNSoffense ,1463,, that1464DTthat things1465NNSthing that1466WDTthat are1467VBPbe violations1468NNSviolation of1469INof the1470DTthe law1471NNlaw are1472VBPbe nevertheless1473RBnevertheless moral1474JJmoral .1475SENT. And1476CCand so1477RBso if1478INif that1479DTthat were1480VBDbe the1481DTthe general1482JJgeneral rule1483NNrule in1484INin criminal1485JJcriminal law1486NNlaw ,1487,, that1488WDTthat you1489PPyou cannot1490MDcan be1491VBbe convicted1492VVNconvict if1493INif you1494PPyou ...1495:... if1496INif you1497PPyou know1498VVPknow that1499DTthat ...1500:... if1501INif you1502PPyou believe1503VVPbelieve that1504IN/thatthat what1505WPwhat you1506PPyou 've1507VHPhave done1508VVNdo is1509VBZbe moral1510JJmoral ,1511,, that1512WDTthat would1513MDwould revolutionize1514VVrevolutionize criminal1515JJcriminal law1516NNlaw .1517SENT. And1518CCand the1519DTthe only1520JJonly element1521NNelement that1522IN/thatthat you1523PPyou are1524VBPbe adding1525VVGadd to1526TOto that1527DTthat is1528VBZbe that1529IN/thatthat this1530DTthis is1531VBZbe caused1532VVNcause by1533INby a1534DTa mental1535JJmental disorder1536NNdisorder .1537SENT. So1538RBso it1539PPit becomes1540VVZbecome important1541JJimportant to1542TOto understand1543VVunderstand what1544WPwhat you1545PPyou mean1546VVPmean by1547INby mental1548JJmental disorder1549NNdisorder .1550SENT. And1551CCand what1552WPwhat do1553VVPdo you1554PPyou mean1555VVmean by1556INby a1557DTa mental1558JJmental disorder1559NNdisorder ?1560SENT? Do1561VVdo you1562PPyou mean1563VVmean everything1564NNeverything that1565WDTthat is1566VBZbe listed1567VVNlist as1568INas a1569DTa mental1570JJmental disorder1571NNdisorder in1572INin the1573DTthe latest1574JJSlate edition1575NNedition of1576INof the1577DTthe DSM1578NPDSM ?1579SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]1580LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Your1581PP$your Honor1582NPHonor ,1583,, it1584PPit 's1585VBZbe not1586RBnot about1587INabout the1588DTthe diagnosis1589NNdiagnosis .1590SENT. And1591CCand you1592PPyou asked1593VVDask what1594WPwhat mental1595JJmental capacity1596NNcapacity means1597NNSmean and1598CCand ...1599:... and1600CCand what1601WPwhat mental1602JJmental illness1603NNillness means1604NNSmean .1605SENT. I1606PPI can1607MDcan put1608VVput it1609PPit this1610DTthis way1611NNway :1612:: It1613PPit is1614VBZbe as1615RBas if1616INif a1617DTa person1618NNperson ...1619:... it1620PPit 's1621VBZbe ...1622:... again1623RBagain ,1624,, it1625PPit 's1626VBZbe not1627RBnot about1628INabout a1629DTa belief1630NNbelief .1631SENT. It1632PPit 's1633VBZbe not1634RBnot about1635RBabout justifying1636VVGjustify .1637SENT. It1638PPit 's1639VBZbe about1640RBabout you1641PPyou actually1642RBactually can1643MDcan 't1644RB't tap1645VVtap in1646INin to1647TOto the1648DTthe part1649NNpart of1650INof your1651PP$your brain1652NNbrain that1653WDTthat allows1654VVZallow you1655PPyou to1656TOto choose1657VVchoose right1658JJright versus1659CCversus wrong1660JJwrong .1661SENT. And1662CCand juries1663NNSjury have1664VHPhave ,1665,, in1666INin 481667CD@card@ jurisdictions1668NNSjurisdiction ,1669,, been1670VBNbe able1671JJable to1672TOto make1673VVmake this1674DTthis distinction1675NNdistinction regardless1676RBregardless of1677INof what1678WPwhat the1679DTthe diagnosis1680NNdiagnosis is1681VBZbe .1682SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]1683LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well1684UHWell ,1685,, what1686WPwhat is1687VBZbe the1688DTthe answer1689NNanswer to1690TOto my1691PP$my question1692NNquestion ?1693SENT? Is1694VBZbe it1695PPit sufficient1696JJsufficient if1697INif the1698DTthe person1699NNperson has1700VHZhave something1701NNsomething that1702WDTthat is1703VBZbe considered1704VVNconsider to1705TOto be1706VBbe a1707DTa mental1708JJmental disorder1709NNdisorder in1710INin the1711DTthe DSM1712NPDSM ?1713SENT? And1714CCand it1715PPit has1716VHZhave been1717VBNbe calculated1718VVNcalculate that1719IN/thatthat one1720CDone in1721INin five1722CDfive people1723NNSpeople in1724INin the1725DTthe United1726NPUnited States1727NPSStates has1728VHZhave some1729DTsome mental1730JJmental disorder1731NNdisorder .1732SENT. So1733RBso we1734PPwe 're1735VBPbe talking1736VVGtalk about1737RBabout 601738CD@card@ plus1739NNplus ...1740:... 601741CD@card@ million1742CDmillion plus1743INplus people1744NNSpeople .1745SENT. All1746DTall of1747INof them1748PPthem could1749MDcould go1750VVgo to1751TOto the1752DTthe jury1753NNjury on1754INon the1755DTthe question1756NNquestion of1757INof whether1758INwhether they1759PPthey had1760VHDhave the1761DTthe capacity1762NNcapacity to1763TOto know1764VVknow that1765IN/thatthat what1766WPwhat they1767PPthey were1768VBDbe doing1769VVGdo when1770WRBwhen they1771PPthey committed1772VVDcommit the1773DTthe crime1774NNcrime was1775VBDbe morally1776RBmorally wrong1777JJwrong .1778SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]1779LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Justice1780NPJustice Alito1781NPAlito ,1782,, they1783PPthey should1784MDshould be1785VBbe given1786VVNgive the1787DTthe opportunity1788NNopportunity to1789TOto at1790INat least1791JJSleast try1792VVtry .1793SENT. This1794DTthis should1795MDshould n't1796RBn't be1797VBbe legislatively1798RBlegislatively cut1799VVNcut off1800RPoff at1801INat the1802DTthe knees1803NNSknee .1804SENT. There1805EXthere are1806VBPbe many1807JJmany mechanisms1808NNSmechanism in1809INin place1810NNplace in1811INin our1812PP$our trial1813NNtrial system1814NNsystem ,1815,, many1816JJmany hoops1817NNShoop that1818IN/thatthat they1819PPthey would1820MDwould have1821VHhave to1822TOto jump1823VVjump through1824RPthrough .1825SENT. But1826CCbut if1827INif they1828PPthey have1829VHPhave a1830DTa mental1831JJmental disease1832NNdisease that1833WDTthat 's1834VBZbe diagnosed1835VVNdiagnose ,1836,, then1837RBthen they1838PPthey should1839MDshould at1840INat least1841JJSleast be1842VBbe able1843JJable to1844TOto get1845VVget in1846INin the1847DTthe door1848NNdoor and1849CCand get1850VVget evaluated1851VVNevaluate and1852CCand then1853RBthen proceed1854VVproceed ...1855:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1856LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms1857NNMs ...1858:... .1859SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]1860LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...1861:... and1862CCand ...1863:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]1864LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms1865NNMs .1866SENT. Schrup1867NPSchrup ...1868:... [MS. SCHRUP]1869LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Yes1870NPYes ?1871SENT? [JUSTICE KAGAN]1872LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Can1873MDcan I1874PPI ask1875VVask you1876PPyou about1877INabout a1878DTa premise1879NNpremise of1880INof your1881PP$your argument1882NNargument ?1883SENT? And1884CCand it1885PPit 's1886VBZbe that1887IN/thatthat if1888INif we1889PPwe look1890VVPlook to1891TOto history1892NNhistory ,1893,, and1894CCand if1895INif history1896NNhistory supports1897VVZsupport what1898WPwhat you1899PPyou say1900VVPsay ,1901,, then1902RBthen we1903PPwe 're1904VBPbe obligated1905VVNobligate to1906TOto go1907VVgo with1908INwith it1909PPit now1910RBnow .1911SENT. And1912CCand I1913PPI ...1914:... I1915PPI just1916RBjust want1917VVPwant to1918TOto ask1919VVask how1920WRBhow and1921CCand why1922WRBwhy that1923DTthat 's1924VBZbe so1925RBso ,1926,, because1927INbecause there1928EXthere are1929VBPbe many1930JJmany ways1931NNSway in1932INin which1933WDTwhich understandings1934NNSunderstanding of1935INof criminal1936JJcriminal culpability1937NNculpability change1938NNchange over1939INover the1940DTthe years1941NNSyear .1942SENT. And1943CCand ...1944:... and1945CCand ...1946:... and1947CCand how1948WRBhow do1949VVPdo we1950PPwe figure1951VVPfigure out1952INout which1953WDTwhich are1954VBPbe the1955DTthe ones1956NNSone that1957IN/thatthat the1958DTthe Constitution1959NPConstitution requires1960VVZrequire stay1961VVstay the1962DTthe same1963JJsame now1964RBnow as1965INas they1966PPthey were1967VBDbe back1968RBback in1969INin the1970DTthe common1971JJcommon law1972NNlaw or1973CCor back1974RBback at1975INat the1976DTthe founding1977NNfounding or1978CCor back1979RBback in1980INin 18681981CD@card@ ,1982,, depending1983VVGdepend on1984INon which1985WDTwhich date1986NNdate you1987PPyou 're1988VBPbe using1989VVGuse ,1990,, and1991CCand ...1992:... and1993CCand ...1994:... and1995CCand which1996WDTwhich ones1997NNSone can1998MDcan change1999VVchange ?2000SENT? What2001WPWhat ...2002:... what2003WPwhat ...2004:... what2005WPwhat do2006VVPdo we2007PPwe do2008VVPdo ?2009SENT? We2010PPwe 're2011VBPbe not2012RBnot stuck2013VVNstick with2014INwith all2015DTall of2016INof history2017NNhistory ,2018,, are2019VBPbe we2020PPwe ?2021SENT? So2022RBso if2023INif we're2024NNwe're ...2025:... if2026INif we2027PPwe 're2028VBPbe not2029RBnot stuck2030VVNstick with2031INwith all2032DTall of2033INof history2034NNhistory ,2035,, why2036WRBwhy are2037VBPbe we2038PPwe obligated2039VVNobligate to2040TOto keep2041VVkeep this2042DTthis part2043NNpart of2044INof it2045PPit ?2046SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]2047LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well2048UHWell ,2049,, Your2050PP$your Honor2051NPHonor ,2052,, because2053INbecause that2054WDTthat 's2055VBZbe the2056DTthe test2057NNtest that2058IN/thatthat this2059DTthis Court2060NPCourt has2061VHZhave set2062VVNset out2063RPout for2064INfor due2065JJdue process2066NNprocess .2067SENT. And2068CCand you2069PPyou could2070MDcould go2071VVgo back2072RBback as2073RBas far2074RBfar as2075INas you2076PPyou want2077VVPwant ,2078,, but2079CCbut by2080INby the2081DTthe 1500s2082JJ1500s ,2083,, we2084PPwe know2085VVPknow that2086IN/thatthat this2087DTthis was2088VBDbe an2089DTan intact2090JJintact principle2091NNprinciple .2092SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]2093LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well2094UHWell ,2095,, the2096DTthe ...2097:... I2098PPI mean2099VVPmean ,2100,, the2101DTthe test2102NNtest that2103WDTthat was2104VBDbe set2105VVNset out2106RPout by2107INby this2108DTthis Court2109NPCourt for2110INfor due2111JJdue process2112NNprocess ,2113,, I2114PPI mean2115VVPmean ,2116,, I2117PPI could2118MDcould give2119VVgive you2120PPyou some2121DTsome ways2122NNSway in2123INin which2124WDTwhich the2125DTthe criminal2126JJcriminal law2127NNlaw of2128INof olden2129JJolden times2130NNStime seems2131VVZseem remarkably2132RBremarkably archaic2133JJarchaic to2134TOto us2135PPus now2136RBnow ,2137,, marital2138JJmarital rape2139NNrape exception2140NNexception ,2141,, maybe2142RBmaybe sodomy2143NNsodomy laws2144NNSlaw .2145SENT. I2146PPI 'm2147VBPbe sure2148JJsure that2149IN/thatthat there2150EXthere are2151VBPbe others2152NNSother that2153IN/thatthat I2154PPI could2155MDcould list2156VVlist .2157SENT. You2158PPyou know2159VVPknow ,2160,, what2161WPwhat does2162VVZdo due2163JJdue process2164NNprocess require2165VVrequire we2166PPwe hang2167VVhang onto2168INonto notwithstanding2169RBnotwithstanding changing2170VVGchange times2171NNStime ?2172SENT? And2173CCand ...2174:... and2175CCand I2176PPI guess2177VVPguess what2178WPwhat is2179VBZbe criminal2180JJcriminal ...2181:... not2182RBnot ...2183:... what2184WPwhat ...2185:... what2186WPwhat is2187VBZbe ...2188:... what2189WPwhat does2190VVZdo the2191DTthe Due2192JJdue Process2193NNprocess Clause2194NNclause require2195VVPrequire that2196IN/thatthat we2197PPwe hang2198VVPhang onto2199INonto ,2200,, notwithstanding2201INnotwithstanding the2202DTthe judgments2203NNSjudgment of2204INof some2205DTsome states2206NNSstate that2207IN/thatthat the2208DTthe time2209NNtime for2210INfor this2211DTthis has2212VHZhave come2213VVNcome and2214CCand gone2215VVNgo ?2216SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]2217LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well2218UHwell ,2219,, we2220PPwe are2221VBPbe ...2222:... we2223PPwe actually2224RBactually have2225VHPhave sort2226NNsort of2227INof a2228DTa perfect2229JJperfect complements2230NNScomplement ,2231,, Justice2232NPJustice Kagan2233NPKagan ,2234,, because2235INbecause we2236PPwe have2237VHPhave not2238RBnot only2239RBonly the2240DTthe history2241NNhistory that2242WDTthat goes2243VVZgo back2244RBback maybe2245RBmaybe a2246DTa thousand2247CDthousand years2248NNSyear ,2249,, and2250CCand certainly2251RBcertainly since2252INsince the2253DTthe mid2254JJmid 1500s2255NN1500s ,2256,, but2257CCbut we2258PPwe also2259RBalso have2260VHPhave the2261DTthe modern2262JJmodern practice2263NNpractice ,2264,, a2265DTa fundamental2266JJfundamental ...2267:... a2268DTa rule2269NNrule of2270INof fundamental2271JJfundamental fairness2272NNfairness currently2273RBcurrently in2274INin operation2275NNoperation in2276INin 482277CD@card@ of2278INof 532279CD@card@ U2280NPU .2281SENT. S2282NPS .2283SENT. jurisdictions2284NNSjurisdiction .2285SENT. So2286RBso it2287PPit 's2288VBZbe not2289RBnot just2290RBjust the2291DTthe history2292NNhistory .2293SENT. It2294PPit 's2295VBZbe the2296DTthe fact2297NNfact that2298IN/thatthat we2299PPwe look2300VVPlook and2301CCand everyone2302NNeveryone has2303VHZhave retained2304VVNretain it2305PPit or2306CCor nearly2307RBnearly everyone2308NNeveryone has2309VHZhave retained2310VVNretain it2311PPit .2312SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2313LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] With2314INwith respect2315NNrespect to2316TOto history2317NNhistory ,2318,, can2319MDcan we2320PPwe take2321VVtake into2322INinto account2323NNaccount the2324DTthe reality2325NNreality ,2326,, in2327INin the2328DTthe old2329JJold days2330NNSday at2331INat common2332JJcommon law2333NNlaw ,2334,, the2335DTthe result2336NNresult of2337INof the2338DTthe insanity2339NNinsanity defense2340NNdefense would2341MDwould be2342VBbe you2343PPyou were2344VBDbe sent2345VVNsend to2346TOto bedlam2347NNbedlam ,2348,, where2349WRBwhere the2350DTthe conditions2351NNScondition were2352VBDbe often2353RBoften far2354RBfar worse2355JJRbad than2356INthan in2357INin prison2358NNprison ?2359SENT? So2360RBso someone2361NNsomeone might2362MDmight decide2363VVdecide ,2364,, no2365UHno ,2366,, I2367PPI 'm2368VBPbe not2369RBnot going2370VVGgo to2371TOto plead2372VVplead insanity2373NNinsanity ,2374,, because2375INbecause then2376RBthen I2377PPI 'll2378MDwill end2379VVend up2380RPup with2381INwith an2382DTan incarceration2383NNincarceration worse2384JJRbad than2385INthan prison2386NNprison .2387SENT. Do2388VVdo we2389PPwe take2390VVtake that2391IN/thatthat into2392INinto account2393NNaccount in2394INin deciding2395VVGdecide the2396DTthe function2397NNfunction of2398INof the2399DTthe insanity2400NNinsanity defense2401NNdefense ?2402SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]2403LOC[MS. SCHRUP] I2404PPI do2405VVPdo n't2406RBn't think2407VVthink you2408PPyou need2409VVPneed to2410TOto take2411VVtake it2412PPit into2413INinto account2414NNaccount .2415SENT. I2416PPI think2417VVPthink what2418WPwhat the2419DTthe fundamental2420JJfundamental principle2421NNprinciple is2422VBZbe ,2423,, is2424VBZbe that2425IN/thatthat the2426DTthe good2427JJgood and2428CCand evil2429JJevil principle2430NNprinciple or2431CCor the2432DTthe right2433NNright and2434CCand wrong2435JJwrong principle2436NNprinciple as2437INas applied2438VVNapply to2439TOto the2440DTthe insane2441JJinsane ,2442,, it2443PPit 's2444VBZbe ...2445:... it2446PPit 's2447VBZbe the2448DTthe application2449NNapplication to2450TOto the2451DTthe insane2452NNinsane that2453WDTthat has2454VHZhave ...2455:... is2456VBZbe deeply2457RBdeeply rooted2458VVNroot in2459INin our2460PP$our country2461NNcountry .2462SENT. And2463CCand where2464WRBwhere those2465DTthose people2466NNSpeople ...2467:... I2468PPI mean2469VVPmean ,2470,, in2471INin today2472NNtoday 's2473POS's time2474NNtime ,2475,, those2476DTthose people2477NNSpeople would2478MDwould n't2479RBn't be2480VBbe sent2481VVNsend there2482RBthere ,2483,, right2484RBright ?2485SENT? We2486PPwe know2487VVPknow after2488INafter Foucha2489NPFoucha that2490IN/thatthat this2491DTthis ...2492:... those2493DTthose people2494NNSpeople are2495VBPbe sent2496VVNsend to2497TOto an2498DTan institution2499NNinstitution .2500SENT. So2501RBso ,2502,, no2503UHno ,2504,, I2505PPI do2506VVPdo n't2507RBn't think2508VVthink it2509PPit 's2510VBZbe ...2511:... it2512PPit 's2513VBZbe how2514WRBhow they2515PPthey were2516VBDbe historically2517RBhistorically ...2518:... where2519WRBwhere they2520PPthey ended2521VVDend up2522RPup .2523SENT. They2524PPthey ended2525VVDend up2526RPup in2527INin a2528DTa lot2529NNlot of2530INof places2531NNSplace ,2532,, Justice2533NPJustice Ginsburg2534NPGinsburg .2535SENT. Sometimes2536RBsometimes they2537PPthey ended2538VVDend up2539RPup there2540RBthere .2541SENT. Sometimes2542RBsometimes they2543PPthey were2544VBDbe released2545VVNrelease to2546TOto their2547PP$their families2548NNSfamily .2549SENT. So2550RBso ...2551:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2552LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] The2553DTthe things2554NNSthing that2555WDTthat I2556PPI ...2557:... I2558PPI think2559VVPthink is2560VBZbe underlying2561VVGunderlie a2562DTa lot2563NNlot of2564INof the2565DTthe debate2566NNdebate is2567VBZbe the2568DTthe expansive2569JJexpansive notion2570NNnotion of2571INof what2572WPwhat counts2573VVZcount as2574INas evidence2575NNevidence .2576SENT. In2577RBin ...2578:... in2579INin ...2580:... in2581INin your2582PP$your brief2583NNbrief ,2584,, you2585PPyou say2586VVPsay the2587DTthe defendant2588NNdefendant in2589INin this2590DTthis case2591NNcase was2592VBDbe ...2593:... this2594DTthis is2595VBZbe evidence2596NNevidence to2597TOto support2598VVsupport his2599PP$his insanity2600NNinsanity claim2601NNclaim ,2602,, was2603VBDbe described2604VVNdescribe by2605INby some2606DTsome as2607INas a2608DTa tightwad2609NNtightwad who2610WPwho would2611MDwould ,2612,, for2613INfor example2614NNexample ,2615,, borrow2616VVborrow rather2617RBrather than2618INthan purchase2619NNpurchase tools2620NNStool .2621SENT. And2622CCand ...2623:... and2624CCand in2625INin the2626DTthe same2627JJsame page2628NNpage ,2629,, again2630RBagain ,2631,, this2632DTthis is2633VBZbe evidence2634NNevidence that2635IN/thatthat you2636PPyou selected2637VVDselect in2638INin the2639DTthe ...2640:... to2641TOto put2642VVput in2643INin your2644PP$your brief2645NNbrief of2646INof his2647PP$his mental2648JJmental disorder2649NNdisorder ,2650,, that2651WDTthat he2652PPhe thrived2653VVDthrive on2654INon self-importance2655NNself-importance ,2656,, community2657NNcommunity prestige2658NNprestige ,2659,, and2660CCand being2661VBGbe perceived2662VVNperceive as2663INas having2664VHGhave an2665DTan ideal2666JJideal or2667CCor perfect2668JJperfect marriage2669NNmarriage .2670SENT. Now2671RBnow ,2672,, maybe2673RBmaybe that2674DTthat 's2675VBZbe not2676RBnot the2677DTthe best2678JJSgood way2679NNway to2680TOto order2681VVorder your2682PP$your life2683NNlife ,2684,, but2685CCbut if2686INif that2687DTthat 's2688VBZbe what2689WPwhat you2690PPyou mean2691VVPmean by2692INby insanity2693NNinsanity ,2694,, you2695PPyou can2696MDcan understand2697VVunderstand why2698WRBwhy that2699DTthat might2700MDmight cause2701VVcause some2702DTsome reservations2703NNSreservation .2704SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]2705LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Your2706PP$your Honor2707NPHonor ,2708,, Mr2709NPMr ...2710:... .2711SENT. Mr2712NPMr .2713SENT. Chief2714NPChief Justice2715NPJustice ,2716,, let2717VVDlet me2718PPme just2719RBjust tell2720VVtell you2721PPyou why2722WRBwhy those2723DTthose facts2724NNSfact are2725VBPbe in2726INin there2727RBthere and2728CCand why2729WRBwhy they2730PPthey 're2731VBPbe not2732RBnot ...2733:... why2734WRBwhy they2735PPthey 're2736VBPbe there2737RBthere and2738CCand that2739IN/thatthat will2740MDwill shed2741VVshed light2742JJlight on2743INon it2744PPit .2745SENT. What2746WPWhat we2747PPwe know2748VVPknow is2749VBZbe that2750IN/thatthat Mr2751NPMr .2752SENT. Kahler2753NPKahler had2754VHDhave a2755DTa major2756JJmajor depressive2757JJdepressive disorder2758NNdisorder .2759SENT. He2760PPhe had2761VHDhave a2762DTa qualifying2763VVGqualify mental2764JJmental illness2765NNillness .2766SENT. Those2767DTthose facts2768NNSfact are2769VBPbe in2770INin there2771EXthere to2772TOto show2773VVshow that2774IN/thatthat there2775EXthere was2776VBDbe an2777DTan entire2778JJentire other2779JJother category2780NNcategory of2781INof evidence2782NNevidence that2783IN/thatthat ,2784,, in2785INin combination2786NNcombination with2787INwith that2788DTthat major2789JJmajor depressive2790JJdepressive disorder2791NNdisorder ,2792,, could2793MDcould have2794VHhave been2795VBNbe been2796VBNbe developed2797VVNdevelop .2798SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2799LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] But2800CCbut that2801WDTthat he2802PPhe ...2803:... [MS. SCHRUP]2804LOC[MS. SCHRUP] But2805CCbut it2806PPit does2807VVZdo n't2808RBn't ...2809:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]2810LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] ...2811:... borrows2812VVZborrow tools2813NNStool instead2814RBinstead of2815INof purchasing2816VVGpurchase them2817PPthem ?2818SENT? That2819DTthat sounds2820NNSsound like2821INlike the2822DTthe reasonable2823JJreasonable option2824NNoption .2825SENT. [2826SYM[ LAUGHTER2827NNlaughter ]2828SYM] [MS. SCHRUP]2829LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well2830UHwell ,2831,, you2832PPyou can2833MDcan 't2834RB't ...2835:... Mr2836NPMr .2837SENT. Chief2838NPChief Justice2839NPJustice ,2840,, you2841PPyou can2842MDcan 't2843RB't take2844VVtake that2845IN/thatthat one2846CDone fact2847NNfact out2848RPout of2849INof context2850NNcontext .2851SENT. But2852CCbut the2853DTthe most2854RBSmost important2855JJimportant thing2856NNthing is2857VBZbe ,2858,, is2859VBZbe that2860IN/thatthat juries2861NNSjury are2862VBPbe able2863JJable to2864TOto take2865VVtake the2866DTthe collection2867NNcollection of2868INof evidence2869NNevidence and2870CCand ...2871:... that2872WDTthat is2873VBZbe presented2874VVNpresent to2875TOto them2876PPthem ,2877,, and2878CCand decide2879VVdecide ,2880,, they2881PPthey decide2882VVPdecide whether2883INwhether the2884DTthe person2885NNperson is2886VBZbe insane2887JJinsane ,2888,, whether2889INwhether they2890PPthey have2891VHPhave the2892DTthe capacity2893NNcapacity for2894INfor moral2895JJmoral judgment2896NNjudgment or2897CCor not2898RBnot .2899SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]2900LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] What2901WDTwhat ...2902:... what2903WPwhat would2904MDwould be2905VBbe put2906VVNput before2907INbefore the2908DTthe jury2909NNjury ,2910,, that2911WDTthat is2912VBZbe ,2913,, what2914WPwhat now2915RBnow ,2916,, what2917WPwhat evidence2918NNevidence in2919INin this2920DTthis record2921NNrecord would2922MDwould you2923PPyou point2924VVPpoint to2925TOto to2926TOto show2927VVshow that2928IN/thatthat Kahler2929NPKahler was2930VBDbe unable2931JJunable to2932TOto tell2933VVtell right2934NNright from2935INfrom wrong2936JJwrong ?2937SENT? What2938WPWhat evidence2939NNevidence is2940VBZbe there2941RBthere that2942IN/thatthat he2943PPhe was2944VBDbe unable2945JJunable to2946TOto make2947VVmake that2948DTthat distinction2949NNdistinction ?2950SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]2951LOC[MS. SCHRUP] On2952INon the2953DTthe current2954JJcurrent record2955NNrecord ...2956:... which2957WDTwhich ,2958,, of2959INof course2960NNcourse ,2961,, was2962VBDbe not2963RBnot developed2964VVNdevelop with2965INwith a2966DTa right2967NNright and2968CCand wrong2969JJwrong principle2970NNprinciple ...2971:... I2972PPI would2973MDwould point2974VVpoint you2975PPyou to2976TOto the2977DTthe Joint2978NPJoint Appendix2979NPAppendix at2980INat 872981CD@card@ where2982WRBwhere his2983PP$his expert2984NNexpert said2985VVDsay that2986IN/thatthat he2987PPhe ...2988:... he2989PPhe could2990MDcould n't2991RBn't rule2992VVrule out2993RPout short-term2994JJshort-term disassociation2995NNdisassociation .2996SENT. If2997INif you2998PPyou are2999VBPbe off-line3000NNoff-line in3001INin that3002DTthat way3003NNway ,3004,, he3005PPhe could3006MDcould n't3007RBn't appreciate3008VVappreciate right3009JJright versus3010CCversus wrong3011JJwrong .3012SENT. But3013CCbut ,3014,, again3015RBagain ,3016,, I3017PPI 'd3018MDwould like3019VVlike to3020TOto point3021VVpoint out3022RPout that3023IN/thatthat he3024PPhe was3025VBDbe ...3026:... he3027PPhe was3028VBDbe not3029RBnot even3030RBeven given3031VVNgive the3032DTthe opportunity3033NNopportunity to3034TOto put3035VVput forth3036RBforth that3037IN/thatthat and3038CCand to3039TOto develop3040VVdevelop other3041JJother evidence3042NNevidence that3043WDTthat would3044MDwould have3045VHhave shown3046VVNshow more3047RBRmore forcefully3048RBforcefully that3049IN/thatthat he3050PPhe did3051VVDdo n't3052RBn't .3053SENT. And3054CCand that3055WDTthat 's3056VBZbe ...3057:... [JUSTICE ALITO]3058LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well3059UHwell ,3060,, he3061PPhe had3062VHDhave the3063DTthe ...3064:... [MS. SCHRUP]3065LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...3066:... the3067DTthe same3068JJsame for3069INfor every3070DTevery defendant3071NNdefendant .3072SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3073LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] He3074PPhe had3075VHDhave the3076DTthe opportunity3077NNopportunity and3078CCand every3079DTevery incentive3080NNincentive to3081TOto do3082VVdo that3083IN/thatthat at3084INat the3085DTthe penalty3086NNpenalty phase3087NNphase .3088SENT. At3089INat the3090DTthe penalty3091NNpenalty phase3092NNphase ,3093,, he3094PPhe was3095VBDbe able3096JJable to3097TOto ...3098:... to3099TOto argue3100VVargue I3101PPI should3102MDshould n't3103RBn't get3104VVget a3105DTa death3106NNdeath sentence3107NNsentence because3108INbecause I3109PPI did3110VVDdo n't3111RBn't know3112VVknow that3113IN/thatthat what3114WPwhat I3115PPI was3116VBDbe doing3117VVGdo was3118VBDbe morally3119RBmorally wrong3120JJwrong .3121SENT. And3122CCand you3123PPyou 'd3124MDwould think3125VVthink that3126IN/thatthat ,3127,, if3128INif the3129DTthe jury3130NNjury believed3131VVDbelieve that3132IN/thatthat ,3133,, they3134PPthey would3135MDwould n't3136RBn't have3137VHhave imposed3138VVNimpose the3139DTthe death3140NNdeath penalty3141NNpenalty .3142SENT. But3143CCbut they3144PPthey did3145VVDdo .3146SENT. And3147CCand you3148PPyou have3149VHPhave to3150TOto keep3151VVkeep in3152INin mind3153NNmind what3154WPwhat he3155PPhe did3156VVDdo .3157SENT. And3158CCand this3159DTthis is3160VBZbe an3161DTan intelligent3162JJintelligent man3163NNman ,3164,, and3165CCand he3166PPhe sneaked3167VVDsneak up3168RPup on3169INon the3170DTthe house3171NNhouse ,3172,, where3173WRBwhere his3174PP$his wife3175NNwife and3176CCand her3177PP$her mother3178NNmother and3179CCand his3180PP$his children3181NNSchild were3182VBDbe staying3183VVGstay .3184SENT. He3185PPhe killed3186VVDkill his3187PP$his ex-wife3188NNex-wife .3189SENT. He3190PPhe killed3191VVDkill his3192PP$his ex3193FWex ...3194:... her3195PP$her mother3196NNmother .3197SENT. He3198PPhe executed3199VVDexecute his3200PP$his two3201CDtwo teenage3202JJteenage daughters3203NNSdaughter .3204SENT. One3205CDOne of3206INof them3207PPthem is3208VBZbe heard3209VVNhear on3210INon the3211DTthe tape3212NNtape crying3213VVGcry .3214SENT. He3215PPhe ,3216,, nevertheless3217RBnevertheless ,3218,, shot3219VVDshoot her3220PPher to3221TOto death3222NNdeath .3223SENT. He3224PPhe spared3225VVDspare the3226DTthe son3227NNson ,3228,, because3229INbecause he3230PPhe did3231VVDdo n't3232RBn't think3233VVthink the3234DTthe son3235NNson was3236VBDbe siding3237VVGside with3238INwith the3239DTthe mother3240NNmother .3241SENT. And3242CCand then3243RBthen he3244PPhe ran3245VVDrun away3246RBaway and3247CCand turned3248VVDturn himself3249PPhimself in3250INin the3251DTthe next3252JJnext day3253NNday .3254SENT. Now3255RBnow ,3256,, this3257DTthis is3258VBZbe the3259DTthe stuff3260NNstuff from3261INfrom which3262WDTwhich you3263PPyou 're3264VBPbe going3265VVGgo to3266TOto make3267VVmake a3268DTa defense3269NNdefense he3270PPhe did3271VVDdo n't3272RBn't know3273VVknow that3274IN/thatthat what3275WPwhat he3276PPhe was3277VBDbe doing3278VVGdo was3279VBDbe morally3280RBmorally wrong3281JJwrong ,3282,, much3283JJmuch less3284CCless he3285PPhe did3286VVDdo n't3287RBn't know3288VVknow what3289WPwhat he3290PPhe was3291VBDbe doing3292VVGdo was3293VBDbe legally3294RBlegally wrong3295JJwrong ?3296SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]3297LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Justice3298NPJustice Alito3299NPAlito ,3300,, I3301PPI 'll3302MDwill answer3303VVanswer the3304DTthe first3305JJfirst part3306NNpart .3307SENT. Sentencing3308NNsentencing is3309VBZbe not3310RBnot a3311DTa substitute3312NNsubstitute because3313INbecause we3314PPwe know3315VVPknow from3316INfrom the3317DTthe briefs3318NNSbrief that3319WDTthat jurors3320NNSjuror make3321VVPmake up3322RPup their3323PP$their mind3324NNmind at3325INat the3326DTthe guilt3327NNguilt phase3328NNphase .3329SENT. And3330CCand ,3331,, In3332INin fact3333NNfact ,3334,, a3335DTa dissenting3336JJdissenting Justice3337NNjustice in3338INin the3339DTthe opinion3340NNopinion below3341RBbelow said3342VVDsay we3343PPwe should3344MDshould not3345RBnot let3346VVlet what3347WPwhat happens3348VVZhappen at3349INat guilt3350NNguilt indicate3351VVPindicate what3352WPwhat happens3353VVZhappen at3354INat sentencing3355NNsentencing .3356SENT. And3357CCand because3358INbecause that3359WDTthat he3360PPhe lacked3361VVDlack that3362IN/thatthat ,3363,, the3364DTthe jury3365NNjury lacked3366VVDlack that3367DTthat lens3368NNlens to3369TOto consider3370VVconsider the3371DTthe moral3372JJmoral capacity3373NNcapacity principle3374NNprinciple ,3375,, you3376PPyou can3377MDcan 't3378RB't draw3379VVdraw any3380DTany ...3381:... it3382PPit would3383MDwould be3384VBbe speculative3385JJspeculative to3386TOto say3387VVsay what3388WPwhat the3389DTthe capital3390NNcapital jury3391NNjury would3392MDwould have3393VHhave decided3394VVNdecide .3395SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]3396LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] But3397CCbut is3398VBZbe that3399IN/thatthat realistic3400JJrealistic ?3401SENT? I3402PPI 'm3403VBPbe on3404INon a3405DTa jury3406NNjury and3407CCand I3408PPI say3409VVPsay :3410:: Well3411UHWell ,3412,, now3413RBnow I3414PPI ...3415:... I3416PPI 've3417VHPhave convicted3418VVNconvict this3419DTthis guy3420NNguy .3421SENT. I3422PPI found3423VVDfind him3424PPhim guilty3425JJguilty .3426SENT. Having3427VHGhave done3428VVNdo that3429IN/thatthat ,3430,, even3431RBeven though3432INthough I3433PPI think3434VVPthink that3435IN/thatthat he3436PPhe did3437VVDdo n't3438RBn't know3439VVknow that3440IN/thatthat what3441WPwhat he3442PPhe was3443VBDbe doing3444VVGdo was3445VBDbe morally3446RBmorally wrong3447JJwrong ,3448,, I3449PPI 'm3450VBPbe going3451VVGgo to3452TOto vote3453VVvote to3454TOto impose3455VVimpose the3456DTthe death3457NNdeath penalty3458NNpenalty .3459SENT. Is3460VBZbe that3461IN/thatthat realistic3462JJrealistic ?3463SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]3464LOC[MS. SCHRUP] It3465PPit is3466VBZbe realistic3467JJrealistic because3468INbecause we3469PPwe know3470VVPknow from3471INfrom the3472DTthe briefs3473NNSbrief that3474WDTthat they3475PPthey ...3476:... that3477IN/thatthat jurors3478NNSjuror are3479VBPbe swayed3480VVNsway by3481INby what3482WPwhat they3483PPthey decide3484VVPdecide at3485INat the3486DTthe guilt3487NNguilt phase3488NNphase .3489SENT. And3490CCand if3491INif they3492PPthey have3493VHPhave lacked3494VVNlack the3495DTthe mechanism3496NNmechanism and3497CCand the3498DTthe opportunity3499NNopportunity to3500TOto look3501VVlook through3502INthrough the3503DTthe lens3504NNlens of3505INof capacity3506NNcapacity for3507INfor moral3508JJmoral judgment3509NNjudgment ,3510,, then3511RBthen ...3512:... then3513RBthen we3514PPwe can3515MDcan 't3516RB't draw3517VVdraw any3518DTany conclusions3519NNSconclusion about3520INabout that3521DTthat .3522SENT. Now3523RBnow ,3524,, the3525DTthe facts3526NNSfact are3527VBPbe hard3528JJhard in3529INin every3530DTevery case3531NNcase and3532CCand they3533PPthey are3534VBPbe hard3535JJhard in3536INin this3537DTthis case3538NNcase .3539SENT. But3540CCbut what3541WPwhat we3542PPwe 're3543VBPbe talking3544VVGtalk about3545RBabout is3546VBZbe an3547DTan opportunity3548NNopportunity ,3549,, a3550DTa mechanism3551NNmechanism for3552INfor all3553DTall defendants3554NNSdefendant ,3555,, to3556TOto be3557VBbe able3558JJable to3559TOto get3560VVget into3561INinto the3562DTthe threshold3563NNthreshold and3564CCand let3565VVlet a3566DTa jury3567NNjury decide3568VVdecide ...3569:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3570LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] You3571PPyou 've3572VHPhave referred3573VVNrefer several3574JJseveral times3575NNStime to3576TOto the3577DTthe jury3578NNjury .3579SENT. And3580CCand one3581CDone of3582INof the3583DTthe debates3584NNSdebate that3585WDTthat has3586VHZhave occurred3587VVNoccur over3588INover the3589DTthe last3590JJlast several3591JJseveral decades3592NNSdecade is3593VBZbe the3594DTthe capacity3595NNcapacity of3596INof juries3597NNSjury to3598TOto be3599VBbe able3600JJable to3601TOto parse3602VVparse these3603DTthese fine3604JJfine concepts3605NNSconcept .3606SENT. And3607CCand one3608CDone of3609INof the3610DTthe things3611NNSthing that3612IN/thatthat leading3613VVGlead scholars3614NNSscholar have3615VHPhave said3616VVNsay is3617VBZbe that3618IN/thatthat this3619DTthis may3620MDmay be3621VBbe beyond3622INbeyond the3623DTthe capacity3624NNcapacity of3625INof jurors3626NNSjuror to3627TOto do3628VVdo in3629INin a3630DTa principled3631JJprincipled way3632NNway .3633SENT. So3634RBso why3635WRBwhy can3636MDcan 't3637RB't a3638DTa state3639NNstate say3640VVPsay ,3641,, as3642INas Justice3643NPJustice Alito3644NPAlito points3645VVZpoint out3646RPout ,3647,, we3648PPwe 're3649VBPbe going3650VVGgo to3651TOto take3652VVtake this3653DTthis away3654RBaway from3655INfrom the3656DTthe jury3657NNjury as3658INas a3659DTa separate3660JJseparate defense3661NNdefense ,3662,, put3663VVDput it3664PPit into3665INinto mens3666NPmens rea3667NPrea ,3668,, and3669CCand then3670RBthen ,3671,, as3672INas Justice3673NPJustice Ginsburg3674NPGinsburg points3675VVZpoint out3676RPout ,3677,, have3678VHPhave it3679PPit considered3680VVNconsider at3681INat sentencing3682NNsentencing ?3683SENT? Why3684WRBwhy is3685VBZbe that3686IN/thatthat an3687DTan unreasonable3688JJunreasonable policy3689NNpolicy judgment3690NNjudgment ,3691,, so3692RBso unreasonable3693JJunreasonable as3694RBas to3695TOto violate3696VVviolate due3697JJdue process3698NNprocess ?3699SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]3700LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well3701UHWell ,3702,, two3703CDtwo points3704NNSpoint ,3705,, Justice3706NPJustice Kavanaugh3707NPKavanaugh .3708SENT. First3709JJfirst of3710INof all3711DTall ,3712,, the3713DTthe critiques3714NNScritique or3715CCor the3716DTthe debates3717NNSdebate were3718VBDbe not3719RBnot about3720INabout abolition3721NNabolition .3722SENT. They3723PPthey were3724VBDbe not3725RBnot about3726RBabout scrapping3727VVGscrap the3728DTthe defense3729NNdefense entirely3730RBentirely .3731SENT. Those3732DTthose should3733MDshould be3734VBbe handled3735VVNhandle through3736INthrough instructional3737JJinstructional or3738CCor ...3739:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3740LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well3741UHWell ...3742:... [MS. SCHRUP]3743LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...3744:... evidentiary3745JJevidentiary mechanisms3746NNSmechanism .3747SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]3748LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Sorry3749JJsorry to3750TOto interrupt3751VVinterrupt ,3752,, but3753CCbut I3754PPI think3755VVPthink one3756PPone of3757INof the3758DTthe debates3759NNSdebate was3760VBDbe ,3761,, in3762INin fact3763NNfact ,3764,, about3765RBabout putting3766VVGput it3767PPit into3768INinto a3769DTa mens3770NPmens rea3771NPrea defense3772NNdefense as3773INas Kansas3774NPKansas has3775VHZhave done3776VVNdo ,3777,, in3778INin part3779NNpart because3780INbecause the3781DTthe concept3782NNconcept as3783INas a3784DTa separate3785JJseparate defense3786NNdefense was3787VBDbe too3788RBtoo confusing3789JJconfusing for3790INfor jurors3791NNSjuror .3792SENT. And3793CCand Professor3794NPProfessor Goldstein3795NPGoldstein pointed3796VVDpoint that3797IN/thatthat out3798INout in3799INin his3800PP$his book3801NNbook and3802CCand that3803WDTthat has3804VHZhave been3805VBNbe part3806NNpart of3807INof the3808DTthe debate3809NNdebate .3810SENT. So3811RBso they3812PPthey have3813VHPhave n't3814RBn't necessarily3815RBnecessarily abolished3816VVNabolish the3817DTthe insanity3818NNinsanity defense3819NNdefense .3820SENT. I3821PPI think3822VVPthink that3823DTthat 's3824VBZbe a3825DTa bit3826NNbit of3827INof a3828DTa misnomer3829NNmisnomer .3830SENT. They3831PPthey have3832VHPhave funneled3833VVNfunnel it3834PPit into3835INinto mens3836NPmens rea3837NPrea and3838CCand then3839RBthen said3840VVDsay that3841IN/thatthat it3842PPit can3843MDcan be3844VBbe considered3845VVNconsider at3846INat sentencing3847VVGsentence as3848RBas well3849RBwell .3850SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]3851LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Justice3852NPJustice Kavanaugh3853NPKavanaugh ,3854,, they3855PPthey have3856VHPhave abolished3857VVNabolish .3858SENT. I3859PPI mean3860VVPmean ,3861,, they3862PPthey ...3863:... they3864PPthey 've3865VHPhave acknowledged3866VVNacknowledge they3867PPthey 've3868VHPhave abolished3869VVNabolish .3870SENT. And3871CCand what3872WPwhat is3873VBZbe present3874JJpresent in3875INin the3876DTthe mens3877NPmens rea3878NPrea approach3879NNapproach is3880VBZbe nothing3881RBnothing more3882JJRmore than3883INthan what3884WPwhat Winship3885NPWinship requires3886VVZrequire .3887SENT. And3888CCand we3889PPwe know3890VVPknow that3891IN/thatthat it3892PPit is3893VBZbe not3894RBnot sufficient3895JJsufficient because3896INbecause it3897PPit does3898VVZdo n't3899RBn't allow3900VVallow ...3901:... it3902PPit does3903VVZdo n't3904RBn't allow3905VVallow a3906DTa jury3907NNjury or3908CCor ...3909:... or3910CCor the3911DTthe defendant3912NNdefendant to3913TOto raise3914VVraise his3915PP$his capacity3916NNcapacity for3917INfor moral3918JJmoral judgment3919NNjudgment ,3920,, which3921WDTwhich ,3922,, if3923INif you3924PPyou go3925VVPgo back3926RBback through3927INthrough history3928NNhistory ,3929,, was3930VBDbe an3931DTan important3932JJimportant component3933NNcomponent ...3934:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]3935LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms3936NNMs ...3937:... .3938SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]3939LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...3940:... of3941INof criminal3942JJcriminal culpability3943NNculpability .3944SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]3945LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms3946NNMs .3947SENT. Schrup3948NPSchrup ,3949,, do3950VVPdo you3951PPyou have3952VHPhave any3953DTany information3954NNinformation about3955INabout how3956WRBhow this3957DTthis works3958NNSwork in3959INin the3960DTthe states3961NNSstate that3962WDTthat have3963VHPhave the3964DTthe rule3965NNrule that3966IN/thatthat you3967PPyou prefer3968VVPprefer ?3969SENT? In3970INin other3971JJother words3972NNSword ,3973,, how3974WRBhow often3975RBoften do3976VVPdo people3977NNSpeople raise3978VVraise insanity3979NNinsanity defenses3980NNSdefense ?3981SENT? How3982WRBHow often3983RBoften do3984VVdo juries3985NNSjury actually3986RBactually find3987VVPfind insanity3988NNinsanity ?3989SENT? If3990INif this3991DTthis were3992VBDbe in3993INin one3994CDone of3995INof the3996DTthe other3997JJother 463998CD@card@ states3999NNSstate ,4000,, how4001WRBhow would4002MDwould it4003PPit operate4004VVoperate ?4005SENT? But4006CCbut ...4007:... or4008CCor ...4009:... or4010CCor not4011RBnot if4012INif this4013DTthis case4014NNcase was4015VBDbe .4016SENT. I4017PPI mean4018VVPmean ,4019,, honestly4020RBhonestly ,4021,, you4022PPyou can4023MDcan 't4024RB't say4025VVPsay this4026DTthis ,4027,, but4028CCbut I4029PPI can4030MDcan .4031SENT. This4032DTthis ...4033:... in4034INin none4035NNnone of4036INof these4037DTthese 464038CD@card@ states4039NNSstate ,4040,, I'm4041NPI'm ...4042:... I'm4043NNI'm ...4044:... I4045PPI 'm4046VBPbe guessing4047VVGguess ,4048,, would4049MDwould your4050PP$your client4051NNclient be4052VBbe found4053VVNfind insane4054JJinsane .4055SENT. But4056CCbut what4057WPwhat happens4058VVZhappen in4059INin these4060DTthese 464061CD@card@ states4062NNSstate ?4063SENT? How4064WRBHow often4065RBoften are4066VBPbe people4067NNSpeople found4068VVDfind insane4069JJinsane ?4070SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]4071LOC[MS. SCHRUP] So4072RBso ,4073,, Justice4074NPJustice Kagan4075NPKagan ,4076,, it4077PPit 's4078VBZbe not4079RBnot in4080INin the4081DTthe record4082NNrecord .4083SENT. I4084PPI have4085VHPhave done4086VVNdo some4087DTsome research4088NNresearch .4089SENT. I4090PPI could4091MDcould let4092VVlet you4093PPyou know4094VVknow what4095WPwhat I4096PPI found4097VVDfind out4098RPout if4099INif you4100PPyou 'd4101MDwould like4102VVlike me4103PPme to4104TOto ,4105,, but4106CCbut it4107PPit 's4108VBZbe not4109RBnot contained4110VVNcontain in4111INin the4112DTthe record4113NNrecord .4114SENT. But4115CCbut I4116PPI do4117VVPdo know4118VVknow that4119IN/thatthat it4120PPit is4121VBZbe raised4122VVNraise in4123INin the4124DTthe right-and-wrong4125NNright-and-wrong states4126NNSstate and4127CCand that4128IN/thatthat there4129EXthere are4130VBPbe acquittals4131NNSacquittal every4132DTevery year4133NNyear .4134SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4135LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] And4136CCand ,4137,, counsel4138NNcounsel ,4139,, can4140MDcan I4141PPI just4142RBjust ...4143:... one4144CDone other4145JJother question4146NNquestion about4147INabout the4148DTthe extent4149NNextent of4150INof how4151WRBhow far4152RBfar this4153DTthis goes4154VVZgo .4155SENT. Obviously4156RBobviously ,4157,, this4158DTthis is4159VBZbe a4160DTa capital4161NNcapital case4162NNcase ,4163,, but4164CCbut how4165WRBhow ...4166:... how4167WRBhow far4168RBfar down4169RBdown the4170DTthe road4171NNroad would4172MDwould you4173PPyou say4174VVsay this4175DTthis defense4176NNdefense must4177MDmust be4178VBbe extended4179VVNextend as4180INas a4181DTa matter4182NNmatter of4183INof due4184JJdue process4185NNprocess ?4186SENT? To4187TOTo all4188DTall homicides4189NNShomicide ?4190SENT? To4191TOTo all4192DTall felonies4193NNSfelony ?4194SENT? Where4195WRBwhere do4196VVPdo you4197PPyou think4198VVPthink the4199DTthe line4200NNline would4201MDwould be4202VBbe drawn4203VVNdraw ?4204SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]4205LOC[MS. SCHRUP] I4206PPI do4207VVPdo n't4208RBn't think4209VVthink that4210IN/thatthat you4211PPyou draw4212VVPdraw the4213DTthe line4214NNline ,4215,, Justice4216NPJustice Gorsuch4217NPGorsuch ,4218,, at4219INat punishment4220NNpunishment .4221SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4222LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] So4223INso an4224DTan insanity4225NNinsanity defense4226NNdefense is4227VBZbe required4228VVNrequire with4229INwith respect4230NNrespect to4231TOto any4232DTany criminal4233JJcriminal complaint4234NNcomplaint ,4235,, even4236RBeven a4237DTa regulatory4238JJregulatory strict4239JJstrict liability4240NNliability misdemeanor4241NNmisdemeanor ?4242SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]4243LOC[MS. SCHRUP] This4244NPThis Court4245NPCourt has4246VHZhave never4247RBnever ...4248:... well4249RBwell ,4250,, so4251RBso it4252PPit 's4253VBZbe our4254PP$our position4255NNposition ...4256:... we4257PPwe 're4258VBPbe making4259VVGmake a4260DTa facial4261JJfacial challenge4262NNchallenge ,4263,, so4264RBso it4265PPit 's4266VBZbe our4267PP$our position4268NNposition it4269PPit should4270MDshould be4271VBbe applied4272VVNapply everywhere4273RBeverywhere .4274SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]4275LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Okay4276NPOkay .4277SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]4278LOC[MS. SCHRUP] But4279CCbut this4280DTthis Court4281NPCourt has4282VHZhave never4283RBnever definitively4284RBdefinitively ruled4285VVNrule on4286INon the4287DTthe extent4288NNextent of4289INof strict4290JJstrict liability4291NNliability crimes4292NNScrime .4293SENT. I4294PPI think4295VVPthink it4296PPit could4297MDcould carve4298VVcarve that4299IN/thatthat out4300RBout .4301SENT. But4302CCbut I4303PPI think4304VVPthink what4305WPwhat 's4306VBZbe important4307JJimportant are4308VBPbe two4309CDtwo things4310NNSthing ,4311,, Justice4312NPJustice Gorsuch4313NPGorsuch .4314SENT. First4315JJfirst of4316INof all4317DTall ,4318,, this4319DTthis is4320VBZbe a4321DTa rarely4322RBrarely used4323VVNuse defense4324NNdefense .4325SENT. It4326PPit 's4327VBZbe invoked4328VVNinvoke in4329INin less4330JJRless than4331INthan one4332CDone percent4333NNpercent of4334INof the4335DTthe cases4336NNScase and4337CCand successful4338JJsuccessful in4339INin only4340RBonly a4341DTa quarter4342NNquarter of4343INof that4344DTthat .4345SENT. We4346PPwe 're4347VBPbe not4348RBnot talking4349VVGtalk about4350INabout a4351DTa huge4352JJhuge number4353NNnumber of4354INof people4355NNSpeople .4356SENT. But4357CCbut for4358INfor the4359DTthe people4360NNSpeople that4361IN/thatthat it4362PPit really4363RBreally matters4364VVZmatter ,4365,, there4366EXthere is4367VBZbe no4368DTno mechanism4369NNmechanism in4370INin these4371DTthese states4372NNSstate to4373TOto protect4374VVprotect them4375PPthem ,4376,, to4377TOto let4378VVlet them4379PPthem be4380VBbe excused4381VVNexcuse or4382CCor to4383TOto let4384VVlet the4385DTthe ...4386:... a4387DTa jury4388NNjury consider4389VVconsider their4390PP$their actual4391JJactual culpability4392NNculpability when4393WRBwhen they4394PPthey can4395MDcan 't4396RB't tap4397VVtap into4398INinto their4399PP$their brains4400NNSbrain in4401INin the4402DTthe way4403NNway other4404JJother people's4405NNSpeople's ...4406:... people4407NNSpeople can4408MDcan .4409SENT. And4410CCand I4411PPI think4412VVPthink jurors4413NNSjuror are4414VBPbe able4415JJable to4416TOto decide4417VVdecide that4418DTthat .4419SENT. They4420PPthey decide4421VVPdecide the4422DTthe term4423NNterm "4424``" reasonableness4425NNreasonableness "4426''" all4427PDTall the4428DTthe time4429NNtime .4430SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]4431LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] If4432INif a4433DTa state4434NNstate adopted4435VVDadopt the4436DTthe irresistible4437JJirresistible impulse4438NNimpulse defense4439NNdefense ,4440,, would4441MDwould that4442RBthat be4443VBbe unconstitutional4444JJunconstitutional ?4445SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]4446LOC[MS. SCHRUP] This4447NPThis Court4448NPCourt in4449INin Leland4450NPLeland said4451VVDsay that4452IN/thatthat it4453PPit is4454VBZbe not4455RBnot a4456DTa constitutional4457JJconstitutional floor4458NNfloor .4459SENT. So4460RBso ,4461,, no4462UHno .4463SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]4464LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] No4465NPNo ,4466,, not4467RBnot whether4468INwhether it4469PPit 's4470VBZbe required4471VVNrequire ,4472,, but4473CCbut would4474MDwould that4475RBthat be4476VBbe unconstitutional4477JJunconstitutional because4478INbecause it4479PPit does4480VVZdo not4481RBnot ask4482VVask whether4483INwhether the4484DTthe person4485NNperson knew4486VVDknow right4487RBright from4488INfrom wrong4489JJwrong ?4490SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]4491LOC[MS. SCHRUP] I4492PPI think4493VVPthink ,4494,, yes4495UHyes ,4496,, it4497PPit would4498MDwould ...4499:... it4500PPit would4501MDwould also4502RBalso have4503VHhave to4504TOto include4505VVinclude the4506DTthe right-and-wrong4507NNright-and-wrong principle4508NNprinciple .4509SENT. I4510PPI 'd4511MDwould like4512VVlike to4513TOto turn4514VVturn briefly4515RBbriefly to4516TOto the4517DTthe Eighth4518JJeighth Amendment4519NPAmendment .4520SENT. The4521DTthe original4522JJoriginal public4523JJpublic meaning4524NNmeaning of4525INof that4526DTthat term4527NNterm was4528VBDbe that4529IN/thatthat it4530PPit would4531MDwould be4532VBbe cruel4533JJcruel and4534CCand unusual4535JJunusual to4536TOto punish4537VVpunish the4538DTthe insane4539NNinsane .4540SENT. In4541INin 18684542CD@card@ ,4543,, with4544INwith the4545DTthe Reconstruction4546NNreconstruction ,4547,, amendments4548NNSamendment were4549VBDbe adopted4550VVNadopt .4551SENT. Every4552DTevery single4553JJsingle jurisdiction4554NNjurisdiction had4555VHDhave an4556DTan insanity4557NNinsanity defense4558NNdefense .4559SENT. And4560CCand even4561RBeven if4562INif you4563PPyou rewind4564VVPrewind back4565RBback to4566TOto 17914567CD@card@ ,4568,, it4569PPit would4570MDwould have4571VHhave been4572VBNbe cruel4573JJcruel and4574CCand unusual4575JJunusual to4576TOto punish4577VVpunish the4578DTthe insane4579NNinsane .4580SENT. They4581PPthey were4582VBDbe either4583RBeither handled4584VVNhandle outside4585INoutside of4586INof the4587DTthe legal4588JJlegal process4589NNprocess or4590CCor they4591PPthey were4592VBDbe allowed4593VVNallow to4594TOto come4595VVcome in4596RPin and4597CCand plead4598VVplead and4599CCand prove4600VVprove insanity4601NNinsanity .4602SENT. Because4603INbecause the4604DTthe Eighth4605JJeighth Amendment4606NPAmendment was4607VBDbe ...4608:... was4609VBDbe intended4610VVNintend as4611INas a4612DTa check4613NNcheck on4614INon sovereign4615JJsovereign power4616NNpower ,4617,, states4618NNSstate are4619VBPbe simply4620RBsimply not4621RBnot free4622JJfree to4623TOto legislatively4624RBlegislatively redefine4625VVredefine culpability4626NNculpability in4627INin a4628DTa way4629NNway that4630WDTthat is4631VBZbe inconsistent4632JJinconsistent with4633INwith history4634NNhistory and4635CCand long-standing4636JJlong-standing practice4637NNpractice .4638SENT. But4639CCbut that4640DTthat is4641VBZbe what4642WPwhat Kansas4643NPKansas has4644VHZhave done4645VVNdo here4646RBhere .4647SENT. It4648PPit is4649VBZbe an4650DTan outlier4651NNoutlier .4652SENT. It4653PPit prevents4654VVZprevent people4655NNSpeople from4656INfrom ...4657:... it4658PPit ...4659:... well4660RBwell ,4661,, by4662INby taking4663VVGtake away4664RPaway the4665DTthe mechanism4666NNmechanism ,4667,, they4668PPthey ensure4669VVPensure that4670IN/thatthat insane4671JJinsane people4672NNSpeople will4673MDwill be4674VBbe punished4675VVNpunish in4676INin their4677PP$their borders4678NNSborder .4679SENT. [JUSTICE GINSBURG]4680LOC[JUSTICE GINSBURG] The4681DTthe Kansas4682NPKansas Supreme4683NPSupreme Court4684NPCourt did4685VVDdo n't4686RBn't reach4687VVreach that4688DTthat question4689NNquestion ,4690,, so4691RBso you4692PPyou are4693VBPbe asking4694VVGask to4695TOto ...4696:... us4697PPus to4698TOto decide4699VVdecide it4700PPit as4701INas a4702DTa matter4703NNmatter of4704INof first4705JJfirst impression4706NNimpression .4707SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]4708LOC[MS. SCHRUP] No4709NPNo ,4710,, Justice4711NPJustice Ginsburg4712NPGinsburg .4713SENT. And4714CCand this4715DTthis ...4716:... you4717PPyou know4718VVPknow ,4719,, was4720VBDbe vetted4721VVNvet at4722INat the4723DTthe cert4724NNcert stage4725NNstage ,4726,, and4727CCand I4728PPI would4729MDwould point4730VVpoint this4731DTthis Court4732NNcourt to4733TOto the4734DTthe addendum4735NNaddendum to4736TOto ...4737:... at4738INat our4739PP$our cert4740NNcert reply4741NNreply at4742INat page4743NNpage 184744CD@card@ and4745CCand 194746CD@card@ ,4747,, because4748INbecause there4749RBthere it4750PPit 's4751VBZbe clear4752JJclear that4753IN/thatthat this4754DTthis notion4755NNnotion of4756INof applying4757VVGapply wrongfulness4758NNwrongfulness to4759TOto the4760DTthe insanity4761NNinsanity defense4762NNdefense came4763VVDcome up4764RPup at4765INat oral4766JJoral argument4767NNargument ,4768,, was4769VBDbe argued4770VVNargue ,4771,, and4772CCand in4773INin that4774DTthat post-argument4775NNpost-argument memo4776NNmemo ,4777,, counsel4778NNcounsel said4779VVDsay we4780PPwe believe4781VVPbelieve that4782IN/thatthat this4783DTthis issue4784NNissue is4785VBZbe presented4786VVNpresent .4787SENT. We4788PPwe 're4789VBPbe going4790VVGgo to4791TOto ...4792:... if4793INif you4794PPyou want4795VVPwant supplemental4796JJsupplemental briefing4797NNbriefing ,4798,, we4799PPwe 'll4800MDwill provide4801VVprovide it4802PPit ,4803,, but4804CCbut we4805PPwe believe4806VVPbelieve it4807PPit is4808VBZbe an4809DTan issue4810NNissue that4811WDTthat is4812VBZbe implicit4813JJimplicit in4814INin this4815DTthis Court4816NPCourt 's4817POS's ruling4818NNruling .4819SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4820LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] What4821WPWhat do4822VVPdo you4823PPyou do4824VVPdo with4825INwith the4826DTthe statement4827NNstatement of4828INof Justice4829NPJustice Marshall4830NPMarshall for4831INfor a4832DTa plurality4833NNplurality in4834INin Powell4835NPPowell versus4836CCversus Texas4837NPTexas ?4838SENT? "4839``" Nothing4840NNnothing could4841MDcould be4842VBbe less4843RBRless fruitful4844JJfruitful than4845INthan for4846INfor this4847DTthis Court4848NPCourt to4849TOto be4850VBbe impelled4851VVNimpel into4852INinto defining4853VVGdefine some4854DTsome sort4855NNsort of4856INof insanity4857NNinsanity defense4858NNdefense ...4859:... or4860CCor insanity4861NNinsanity test4862NNtest in4863INin constitutional4864JJconstitutional terms4865NNSterm .4866SENT. "4867``" I4868PPI think4869VVPthink pointing4870VVGpoint out4871RPout the4872DTthe difficulty4873NNdifficulty of4874INof us4875PPus ,4876,, through4877INthrough the4878DTthe Due4879JJdue Process4880NNprocess Clause4881NNclause ,4882,, wading4883VVGwade into4884INinto this4885DTthis policy4886NNpolicy debate4887NNdebate and4888CCand figuring4889VVGfigure out4890RPout what4891WPwhat the4892DTthe line4893NNline is4894VBZbe .4895SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]4896LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Justice4897NPJustice Kavanaugh4898NPKavanaugh ,4899,, that4900WDTthat ...4901:... and4902CCand Powell4903NPPowell was4904VBDbe not4905RBnot an4906DTan abolition4907NNabolition case4908NNcase ,4909,, first4910JJfirst of4911INof all4912DTall .4913SENT. But4914CCbut ,4915,, secondly4916RBsecondly ,4917,, what4918WPwhat Justice4919NPJustice Powell4920NPPowell said4921VVDsay there4922EXthere was4923VBDbe a4924DTa reflection4925NNreflection of4926INof the4927DTthe facts4928NNSfact of4929INof that4930DTthat case4931NNcase .4932SENT. That4933DTthat case4934NNcase had4935VHDhave to4936TOto grapple4937VVgrapple with4938INwith Leland4939NPLeland ,4940,, and4941CCand the4942DTthe only4943JJonly mechanism4944NNmechanism or4945CCor the4946DTthe only4947JJonly test4948NNtest that4949WDTthat would4950MDwould have4951VHhave applied4952VVNapply in4953INin Powell4954NPPowell is4955VBZbe an4956DTan irresistible4957JJirresistible or4958CCor compulsion-based4959JJcompulsion-based test4960NNtest .4961SENT. So4962INso our4963PP$our standard4964NNstandard ,4965,, the4966DTthe right-and-wrong4967NNright-and-wrong standard4968NNstandard ,4969,, is4970VBZbe below4971INbelow that4972DTthat .4973SENT. And4974CCand it4975PPit 's4976VBZbe not4977RBnot a4978DTa ...4979:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]4980LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But4981CCbut Leland4982NPLeland in4983INin turn4984NNturn said4985VVDsay ...4986:... noted4987VVDnote the4988DTthe wide4989JJwide disagreement4990NNdisagreement among4991INamong different4992JJdifferent tests4993NNStest and4994CCand said4995VVDsay choice4996NNchoice of4997INof a4998DTa test4999NNtest involves5000VVZinvolve not5001RBnot only5002RBonly scientific5003JJscientific knowledge5004NNknowledge but5005CCbut questions5006NNSquestion of5007INof basic5008JJbasic policy5009NNpolicy .5010SENT. The5011DTthe whole5012JJwhole problem5013NNproblem has5014VHZhave evoked5015VVNevoke wide5016JJwide disagreement5017NNdisagreement among5018INamong those5019DTthose who5020WPwho have5021VHPhave studied5022VVNstudy it5023PPit ,5024,, which5025WDTwhich is5026VBZbe true5027JJtrue as5028RBas to5029TOto this5030DTthis ...5031:... as5032RBas to5033TOto the5034DTthe Kansas5035NPKansas approach5036NNapproach as5037INas well5038RBwell .5039SENT. There5040EXthere 's5041VBZbe wide5042JJwide disagreement5043NNdisagreement ,5044,, but5045CCbut some5046DTsome have5047VHPhave advocated5048VVNadvocate for5049INfor that5050DTthat as5051RBas well5052RBwell .5053SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]5054LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Well5055UHWell ,5056,, Leland5057NPLeland also5058RBalso recognized5059VVDrecognize the5060DTthe right-and-wrong5061NNright-and-wrong principle5062NNprinciple was5063VBDbe the5064DTthe majority5065NNmajority test5066NNtest in5067INin the5068DTthe majority5069NNmajority of5070INof jurisdictions5071NNSjurisdiction .5072SENT. And5073CCand that5074WDTthat holds5075VVZhold true5076JJtrue today5077NNtoday because5078INbecause 485079CD@card@ jurisdictions5080NNSjurisdiction have5081VHPhave retained5082VVNretain this5083DTthis baseline5084JJbaseline principle5085NNprinciple .5086SENT. And5087CCand we5088PPwe 're5089VBPbe not5090RBnot ...5091:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5092LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Are5093NPAre ...5094:... are5095VBPbe all5096DTall 485097CD@card@ constitutional5098JJconstitutional ?5099SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]5100LOC[MS. SCHRUP] If5101INif they5102PPthey have5103VHPhave the5104DTthe right-and-wrong5105NNright-and-wrong principle5106NNprinciple ,5107,, they5108PPthey are5109VBPbe .5110SENT. Yes5111UHyes .5112SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5113LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Is5114VBZbe that5115IN/thatthat a5116DTa yes5117NNyes ?5118SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]5119LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Yes5120NPYes ,5121,, I5122PPI 'm5123VBPbe sorry5124JJsorry .5125SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]5126LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] All5127DTall 485128CD@card@ are5129VBPbe constitutional5130JJconstitutional ?5131SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]5132LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Yes5133NPYes .5134SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]5135LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Justice5136NPJustice Marshall's5137NPMarshall's ...5138:... Justice5139NPJustice Marshall5140NPMarshall 's5141POS's statement5142NNstatement in5143INin Powell5144NPPowell was5145VBDbe not5146RBnot limited5147VVNlimit in5148INin the5149DTthe way5150NNway that5151IN/thatthat you5152PPyou suggest5153VVPsuggest .5154SENT. It5155PPit was5156VBDbe categorical5157JJcategorical .5158SENT. And5159CCand he5160PPhe was5161VBDbe joined5162VVNjoin by5163INby Chief5164NPChief Justice5165NPJustice Warren5166NPWarren ,5167,, Justice5168NPJustice Black5169NPBlack ,5170,, and5171CCand Justice5172NPJustice Harlan5173NPHarlan in5174INin saying5175VVGsay that5176DTthat .5177SENT. So5178RBso they5179PPthey were5180VBDbe all5181RBall wrong5182JJwrong at5183INat that5184DTthat time5185NNtime ?5186SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]5187LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Mr5188NPMr .5189SENT. Chief5190NPChief Justice5191NPJustice ?5192SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5193LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Briefly5194NNbriefly .5195SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]5196LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Okay5197NPOkay .5198SENT. Justice5199NPJustice Alito5200NPAlito ,5201,, it5202PPit 's5203VBZbe not5204RBnot that5205IN/thatthat they5206PPthey were5207VBDbe wrong5208JJwrong ;5209:; it5210PPit 's5211VBZbe just5212RBjust they5213PPthey were5214VBDbe talking5215VVGtalk about5216INabout a5217DTa different5218JJdifferent scenario5219NNscenario ,5220,, a5221DTa non-abolition5222NNnon-abolition case5223NNcase dealing5224VVGdeal with5225INwith a5226DTa test5227NNtest that5228WDTthat is5229VBZbe north5230RBnorth of5231INof our5232PP$our standard5233NNstandard .5234SENT. Thank5235VVthank you5236PPyou .5237SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]5238LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank5239VVthank you5240PPyou ,5241,, counsel5242NNcounsel .5243SENT. Mr5244NPMr .5245SENT. Crouse5246NPCrouse .5247SENT.

[MR. CROUSE]5248LOC[MR. CROUSE] Mr5249NPMr .5250SENT. Chief5251NPChief Justice5252NPJustice ,5253,, and5254CCand may5255MDmay it5256PPit please5257VVplease the5258DTthe Court5259NPCourt :5260:: Petitioner5261NNpetitioner asked5262VVDask this5263DTthis Court5264NPCourt to5265TOto define5266VVdefine a5267DTa rule5268NNrule of5269INof insanity5270NNinsanity and5271CCand to5272TOto require5273VVrequire the5274DTthe states5275NNSstate to5276TOto implement5277VVimplement that5278DTthat rule5279NNrule in5280INin its5281PP$its criminal5282JJcriminal justice5283NNjustice proceedings5284NNSproceeding .5285SENT. But5286CCbut ,5287,, as5288INas this5289DTthis Court5290NPCourt indicated5291VVDindicate in5292INin Powell5293NPPowell ,5294,, nearly5295RBnearly 505296CD@card@ years5297NNSyear ago5298RBago ,5299,, nothing5300NNnothing would5301MDwould be5302VBbe less5303RBRless fruitful5304JJfruitful than5305INthan for5306INfor this5307DTthis Court5308NPCourt to5309TOto select5310VVselect a5311DTa rigid5312JJrigid rule5313NNrule of5314INof constitutional5315JJconstitutional law5316NNlaw of5317INof insanity5318NNinsanity .5319SENT. And5320CCand that5321DTthat admonition5322NNadmonition rings5323VVZring as5324INas true5325JJtrue today5326NNtoday as5327INas it5328PPit did5329VVDdo 505330CD@card@ years5331NNSyear ago5332RBago .5333SENT. The5334DTthe first5335JJfirst thing5336NNthing I5337PPI 'd5338MDwould like5339VVlike to5340TOto talk5341VVtalk about5342RBabout is5343VBZbe that5344IN/thatthat it5345PPit 's5346VBZbe not5347RBnot deeply5348RBdeeply rooted5349VVNroot .5350SENT. The5351DTthe right5352NNright versus5353INversus wrong5354JJwrong test5355NNtest is5356VBZbe a5357DTa relatively5358RBrelatively recent5359JJrecent vintage5360NNvintage .5361SENT. The5362DTthe historical5363JJhistorical basis5364NNbasis for5365INfor it5366PPit started5367VVDstart somewhere5368RBsomewhere around5369INaround the5370DTthe 1800s5371JJ1800s ;5372:; and5373CCand ,5374,, therefore5375RBtherefore ,5376,, it5377PPit 's5378VBZbe not5379RBnot deeply5380RBdeeply rooted5381VVNroot .5382SENT. In5383INin addition5384NNaddition ,5385,, the5386DTthe states5387NNSstate have5388VHPhave had5389VHNhave historical5390JJhistorical and5391CCand traditional5392JJtraditional discretion5393NNdiscretion to5394TOto both5395CCboth define5396VVdefine the5397DTthe elements5398NNSelement of5399INof the5400DTthe criminal5401JJcriminal law5402NNlaw ,5403,, the5404DTthe defenses5405NNSdefense that5406WDTthat are5407VBPbe available5408JJavailable in5409INin those5410DTthose criminal5411JJcriminal justice5412NNjustice proceedings5413NNSproceeding ,5414,, and5415CCand the5416DTthe substantive5417JJsubstantive rules5418NNSrule at5419INat which5420WDTwhich those5421DTthose defenses5422NNSdefense and5423CCand elements5424NNSelement are5425VBPbe met5426VVNmeet .5427SENT. And5428CCand consistent5429JJconsistent with5430INwith that5431DTthat discretion5432NNdiscretion ,5433,, the5434DTthe State5435NPState of5436INof Kansas5437NPKansas has5438VHZhave a5439DTa holistic5440JJholistic approach5441NNapproach to5442TOto the5443DTthe mental5444JJmental illness5445NNillness problem5446NNproblem starting5447VVGstart at5448INat the5449DTthe time5450NNtime the5451DTthe criminal5452JJcriminal justice5453NNjustice proceeding5454NNproceeding is5455VBZbe initiated5456VVNinitiate ,5457,, throughout5458INthroughout the5459DTthe guilt5460NNguilt phase5461NNphase ,5462,, as5463RBas well5464RBwell as5465INas in5466INin the5467DTthe punishment5468NNpunishment phase5469NNphase ,5470,, and5471CCand continuing5472VVGcontinue on5473RPon even5474RBeven with5475INwith regard5476NNregard to5477TOto the5478DTthe sentence5479NNsentence as5480INas it5481PPit 's5482VBZbe carried5483VVNcarry out5484RPout ,5485,, whether5486INwhether being5487VBGbe in5488INin a5489DTa prison5490NNprison or5491CCor in5492INin a5493DTa mental5494JJmental hospital5495NNhospital .5496SENT. These5497DTthese factors5498NNSfactor confirm5499VVPconfirm that5500IN/thatthat Petitioner5501NNpetitioner has5502VHZhave not5503RBnot carried5504VVNcarry the5505DTthe heavy5506JJheavy burden5507NNburden to5508TOto identify5509VVidentify a5510DTa single5511JJsingle rule5512NNrule that5513WDTthat is5514VBZbe clearly5515RBclearly established5516VVNestablish and5517CCand required5518VVNrequire by5519INby the5520DTthe fundamental5521JJfundamental elements5522NNSelement of5523INof due5524JJdue process5525NNprocess .5526SENT. And5527CCand for5528INfor that5529DTthat reason5530NNreason ,5531,, we5532PPwe believe5533VVPbelieve that5534IN/thatthat the5535DTthe state5536NNstate supreme5537JJsupreme court5538NNcourt judgment5539NNjudgment in5540INin Kansas5541NPKansas should5542MDshould be5543VBbe affirmed5544VVNaffirm .5545SENT. And5546CCand so5547RBso unless5548INunless there5549EXthere are5550VBPbe additional5551JJadditional questions5552NNSquestion this5553DTthis Court5554NPCourt would5555MDwould have5556VHhave ,5557,, I'd5558NPI'd ...5559:... I5560PPI 'd5561MDwould like5562VVlike to5563TOto first5564RBfirst turn5565VVturn to5566TOto the5567DTthe answer5568NNanswer of5569INof Justice5570NPJustice Alito5571NPAlito 's5572POS's question5573NNquestion ,5574,, and5575CCand the5576DTthe answer5577NNanswer is5578VBZbe the5579DTthe right-and-wrong5580NNright-and-wrong test5581NNtest has5582VHZhave multiple5583JJmultiple components5584NNScomponent .5585SENT. There5586EXthere is5587VBZbe no5588DTno consistent5589JJconsistent element5590NNelement or5591CCor definition5592NNdefinition of5593INof how5594WRBhow that5595DTthat 's5596VBZbe applied5597VVNapply in5598INin any5599DTany of5600INof the5601DTthe 465602CD@card@ jurisdictions5603NNSjurisdiction .5604SENT. As5605INas our5606PP$our brief5607JJbrief points5608NNSpoint out5609RBout ,5610,, there5611EXthere are5612VBPbe a5613DTa host5614NNhost of5615INof different5616JJdifferent factions5617NNSfaction and5618CCand different5619JJdifferent ways5620NNSway in5621INin which5622WDTwhich those5623DTthose elements5624NNSelement would5625MDwould be5626VBbe met5627VVNmeet ,5628,, and5629CCand we5630PPwe think5631VVPthink that5632IN/thatthat ,5633,, in5634INin and5635CCand of5636INof itself5637PPitself ,5638,, undermines5639VVZundermine the5640DTthe constitutional5641JJconstitutional floor5642NNfloor that5643IN/thatthat Petitioner5644NNpetitioner seeks5645VVZseek ...5646:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5647LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Mr5648NPMr .5649SENT. Crouse5650NPCrouse ...5651:... [MR. CROUSE]5652LOC[MR. CROUSE] ...5653:... to5654TOto have5655VHhave US5656NPUS ...5657:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5658LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I5659PPI ...5660:... I5661PPI understand5662VVPunderstand what5663WPwhat you5664PPyou 're5665VBPbe saying5666VVGsay ,5667,, but5668CCbut I5669PPI have5670VHPhave a5671DTa problem5672NNproblem because5673INbecause ,5674,, as5675INas I5676PPI understand5677VVPunderstand the5678DTthe mens5679NPmens rea5680NPrea test5681NNtest ,5682,, it5683PPit takes5684VVZtake away5685RBaway excusing5686VVGexcuse a5687DTa person5688NNperson who5689WPwho ,5690,, from5691INfrom the5692DTthe 155693CD@card@ ...5694:... 1400s5695NP1400s ,5696,, would5697MDwould have5698VHhave been5699VBNbe considered5700VVNconsider a5701DTa lunatic5702NNlunatic ,5703,, a5704DTa person5705NNperson who5706WPwho hears5707VVZhear voices5708NNSvoice and5709CCand the5710DTthe voices5711NNSvoice tell5712VVPtell him5713PPhim or5714CCor her5715PPher what5716WPwhat to5717TOto do5718VVdo ,5719,, and5720CCand they5721PPthey have5722VHPhave no5723DTno volition5724NNvolition to5725TOto fight5726VVfight back5727RBback .5728SENT. They5729PPthey ...5730:... many5731JJmany of5732INof them5733PPthem know5734VVPknow they5735PPthey 're5736VBPbe killing5737VVGkill somebody5738NNsomebody .5739SENT. So5740INso intent5741NNintent under5742INunder your5743PP$your mens5744NPmens rea5745NPrea test5746NNtest is5747VBZbe met5748VVNmeet .5749SENT. They5750PPthey absolutely5751RBabsolutely know5752VVPknow they5753PPthey 're5754VBPbe killing5755VVGkill someone5756NNsomeone ;5757:; they5758PPthey just5759RBjust have5760VHPhave no5761DTno ability5762NNability to5763TOto say5764VVsay no5765RBno .5766SENT. They5767PPthey ...5768:... they5769PPthey do5770VVPdo n't5771RBn't ...5772:... they5773PPthey can5774MDcan 't5775RB't because5776INbecause of5777INof their5778PP$their either5779RBeither mental5780JJmental illness5781NNillness ...5782:... lunacy5783NNlunacy ,5784,, all5785RBall of5786INof the5787DTthe wild5788JJwild beast5789NNbeast things5790NNSthing ,5791,, all5792RBall of5793INof ...5794:... yes5795UHyes ,5796,, they5797PPthey have5798VHPhave two5799CDtwo components5800NNScomponent ,5801,, some5802DTsome volition5803NNvolition and5804CCand some5805DTsome not5806RBnot ,5807,, but5808CCbut for5809INfor centuries5810NNScentury ,5811,, that5812DTthat concept5813NNconcept of5814INof no5815DTno volition5816NNvolition ,5817,, the5818DTthe true5819JJtrue lunatic5820NNlunatic ,5821,, would5822MDwould get5823VVget off5824RPoff .5825SENT. Your5826PP$your test5827NNtest does5828VVZdo n't5829RBn't do5830VVdo that5831DTthat .5832SENT. [MR. CROUSE]5833LOC[MR. CROUSE] Well5834UHwell ,5835,, it5836PPit ...5837:... it5838PPit does5839VVZdo .5840SENT. And5841CCand so5842INso our5843PP$our test5844NNtest is5845VBZbe ...5846:... is5847VBZbe relatively5848RBrelatively consistent5849JJconsistent with5850INwith the5851DTthe cognitive5852JJcognitive capacity5853NNcapacity test5854NNtest .5855SENT. There5856EXthere 's5857VBZbe a5858DTa volitional5859JJvolitional ,5860,, there5861EXthere 's5862VBZbe a5863DTa moral5864JJmoral test5865NNtest ,5866,, and5867CCand then5868RBthen there5869EXthere 's5870VBZbe the5871DTthe product5872NNproduct test5873NNtest .5874SENT. And5875CCand so5876INso we5877PPwe ...5878:... we5879PPwe would5880MDwould view5881VVview our5882PP$our test5883NNtest as5884INas consistent5885JJconsistent with5886INwith the5887DTthe cognitive5888JJcognitive test5889NNtest .5890SENT. And5891CCand if5892INif the5893DTthe individual5894JJindividual can5895MDcan 't5896RB't formulate5897VVformulate the5898DTthe in5899RPin ...5900:... criminal5901JJcriminal intent5902NNintent in5903INin Kansas5904NPKansas ,5905,, that5906WDTthat ...5907:... that5908WDTthat is5909VBZbe a5910DTa sufficient5911JJsufficient defense5912NNdefense .5913SENT. And5914CCand that5915WDTthat has5916VHZhave been5917VBNbe ...5918:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5919LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But5920CCbut that5921DTthat 's5922VBZbe not5923RBnot how5924WRBhow I5925PPI read5926VVPread your5927PP$your charge5928NNcharge .5929SENT. And5930CCand when5931WRBwhen I5932PPI read5933VVPread the5934DTthe charge5935NNcharge here5936RBhere ,5937,, it5938PPit does5939VVZdo n't5940RBn't talk5941VVtalk ...5942:... you5943PPyou 're5944VBPbe talking5945VVGtalk the5946DTthe very5947JJvery language5948NNlanguage that5949IN/thatthat your5950PP$your adversary5951NNadversary is5952VBZbe suggesting5953VVGsuggest you5954PPyou should5955MDshould adopt5956VVadopt .5957SENT. [MR. CROUSE]5958LOC[MR. CROUSE] Yeah5959NPYeah .5960SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]5961LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But5962CCbut it5963PPit 's5964VBZbe not5965RBnot part5966NNpart of5967INof the5968DTthe mens5969NPmens rea5970NPrea test5971NNtest .5972SENT. The5973DTthe strict5974JJstrict mens5975NPmens rea5976NPrea test5977NNtest now5978RBnow is5979VBZbe do5980VVdo you5981PPyou intend5982VVPintend to5983TOto ...5984:... do5985VVPdo you5986PPyou know5987VVPknow what5988WPwhat you5989PPyou 're5990VBPbe doing5991VVGdo ?5992SENT? [MR. CROUSE]5993LOC[MR. CROUSE] Do5994VVPdo you5995PPyou have5996VHPhave criminal5997JJcriminal intent5998NNintent ,5999,, that6000WDTthat 's6001VBZbe right6002JJright .6003SENT. I6004PPI ...6005:... I6006PPI ...6007:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6008LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] No6009NPNo ,6010,, no6011RBno ...6012:... [MR. CROUSE]6013LOC[MR. CROUSE] What6014WPWhat I6015PPI ...6016:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6017LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...6018:... there6019EXthere 's6020VBZbe not6021RBnot ...6022:... yes6023UHyes ,6024,, you6025PPyou 're6026VBPbe ...6027:... you6028PPyou 're6029VBPbe adding6030VVGadd a6031DTa volition6032NNvolition .6033SENT. But6034CCbut what6035WPwhat I6036PPI 'm6037VBPbe saying6038VVGsay is6039VBZbe your6040PP$your ...6041:... this6042DTthis test6043NNtest standing6044NNstanding alone6045RBalone does6046VVZdo n't6047RBn't do6048VVdo that6049DTthat .6050SENT. [MR. CROUSE]6051LOC[MR. CROUSE] So6052RBso ,6053,, as6054INas I6055PPI ...6056:... I6057PPI understand6058VVPunderstand Petitioner6059NNpetitioner 's6060POS's test6061NNtest ,6062,, is6063VBZbe they6064PPthey want6065VVPwant to6066TOto ask6067VVask the6068DTthe question6069NNquestion of6070INof whether6071INwhether or6072CCor not6073RBnot the6074DTthe individual6075NNindividual knows6076VVZknow that6077IN/thatthat it6078PPit 's6079VBZbe either6080RBeither legally6081RBlegally or6082CCor morally6083RBmorally right6084JJright versus6085CCversus wrong6086JJwrong .6087SENT. What6088WPWhat Kansas6089NPKansas does6090VVZdo is6091VBZbe ,6092,, if6093INif you6094PPyou have6095VHPhave criminal6096JJcriminal intent6097NNintent ,6098,, you6099PPyou are6100VBPbe responsible6101JJresponsible .6102SENT. But6103CCbut ...6104:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6105LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well6106UHwell ,6107,, I6108PPI think6109VVPthink there6110RBthere ...6111:... [MR. CROUSE]6112LOC[MR. CROUSE] ...6113:... after6114INafter conviction6115NNconviction then6116RBthen you6117PPyou have6118VHPhave the6119DTthe opportunity6120NNopportunity to6121TOto assert6122VVassert a6123DTa right6124NNright versus6125INversus wrong6126JJwrong test6127NNtest .6128SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]6129LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Well6130UHWell ,6131,, but6132CCbut that6133DTthat 's6134VBZbe the6135DTthe point6136NNpoint ,6137,, which6138WDTwhich is6139VBZbe that6140DTthat issue6141NNissue ,6142,, which6143WDTwhich is6144VBZbe after6145INafter conviction6146NNconviction .6147SENT. What6148WPWhat she6149PPshe 's6150VHZhave been6151VBNbe arguing6152VVGargue is6153VBZbe that6154IN/thatthat since6155INsince the6156DTthe beginning6157NNbeginning of6158INof time6159NNtime ,6160,, both6161CCboth under6162INunder English6163JJEnglish law6164NNlaw and6165CCand at6166INat the6167DTthe time6168NNtime of6169INof the6170DTthe founding6171NNfounding ,6172,, all6173PDTall the6174DTthe states6175NNSstate then6176RBthen ...6177:... and6178CCand ,6179,, frankly6180RBfrankly ,6181,, until6182INuntil I6183PPI think6184VVPthink the6185DTthe 1970s6186NNS1970s ...6187:... all6188DTall 506189CD@card@ states6190NNSstate did6191VVDdo n't6192RBn't make6193VVmake it6194PPit a6195DTa subject6196NNsubject of6197INof sentencing6198NNsentencing .6199SENT. They6200PPthey made6201VVDmake it6202PPit a6203DTa reason6204NNreason for6205INfor why6206WRBwhy you6207PPyou should6208MDshould be6209VBbe excused6210VVNexcuse from6211INfrom your6212PP$your conduct6213NNconduct ...6214:... for6215INfor your6216PP$your conduct6217NNconduct .6218SENT. You6219PPyou 're6220VBPbe saying6221VVGsay the6222DTthe same6223JJsame thing6224NNthing with6225INwith something6226NNsomething like6227INlike duress6228NNduress :6229:: I6230PPI intend6231VVPintend to6232TOto kill6233VVkill someone6234NNsomeone ,6235,, but6236CCbut it6237PPit 's6238VBZbe because6239INbecause somebody6240NNsomebody is6241VBZbe holding6242VVGhold a6243DTa gun6244NNgun to6245TOto my6246PP$my head6247NNhead .6248SENT. All6249DTall 506250CD@card@ states6251NNSstate would6252MDwould let6253VVlet you6254PPyou off6255RPoff .6256SENT. But6257CCbut you6258PPyou 're6259VBPbe now6260RBnow saying6261VVGsay it6262PPit 's6263VBZbe okay6264JJokay to6265TOto stigmatize6266VVstigmatize you6267PPyou with6268INwith a6269DTa criminal6270JJcriminal conviction6271NNconviction even6272RBeven though6273RBthough ,6274,, in6275INin fact6276NNfact ,6277,, you6278PPyou may6279MDmay be6280VBbe insane6281JJinsane .6282SENT. [MR. CROUSE]6283LOC[MR. CROUSE] I6284PPI 'm6285VBPbe saying6286VVGsay what6287WPwhat the6288DTthe state6289NNstate of6290INof Kansas6291NPKansas has6292VHZhave done6293VVNdo is6294VBZbe it6295PPit has6296VHZhave defined6297VVNdefine its6298PP$its mental6299JJmental illness6300NNillness defense6301NNdefense consistent6302JJconsistent with6303INwith what6304WPwhat the6305DTthe historical6306JJhistorical teachings6307NNSteaching are6308VBPbe ,6309,, dating6310VVGdate back6311RBback to6312TOto Blackstone6313NPBlackstone ,6314,, going6315VVGgo all6316PDTall the6317DTthe way6318NNway up6319RBup to6320TOto the6321DTthe 19106322CD@card@ ,6323,, I6324PPI believe6325VVPbelieve it6326PPit was6327VBDbe Professor6328NPProfessor ...6329:... Dean6330NPDean Orville6331NPOrville Morris6332NPMorris indicated6333VVDindicate that6334IN/thatthat up6335RBup until6336INuntil the6337DTthe 19th6338JJ19th Century6339NNcentury ,6340,, that6341DTthat being6342JJbeing M'Naghten6343NNM'Naghten ,6344,, criminal6345JJcriminal intent6346NNintent was6347VBDbe what6348WPwhat handled6349VVDhandle everything6350NNeverything with6351INwith regard6352NNregard to6353TOto criminal6354JJcriminal insanity6355NNinsanity .6356SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6357LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] So6358RBso ,6359,, General6360NPGeneral Crouse6361NPCrouse ,6362,, could6363MDcould you6364PPyou assume6365VVassume for6366INfor a6367DTa moment6368NNmoment that6369IN/thatthat I6370PPI disagree6371VVPdisagree with6372INwith you6373PPyou on6374INon the6375DTthe reading6376NNreading of6377INof the6378DTthe historical6379JJhistorical record6380NNrecord ?6381SENT? And6382CCand just6383RBjust let6384VVlet 's6385VBZbe say6386VVsay that6387IN/thatthat the6388DTthe historical6389JJhistorical record6390NNrecord actually6391RBactually ...6392:... that6393IN/thatthat there6394EXthere 's6395VBZbe much6396RBmuch more6397JJRmore evidence6398NNevidence than6399INthan you6400PPyou are6401VBPbe suggesting6402VVGsuggest that6403IN/thatthat a6404DTa defendant6405NNdefendant had6406VHDhave to6407TOto have6408VHhave a6409DTa guilty6410JJguilty mind6411NNmind ,6412,, meaning6413VVGmean an6414DTan understanding6415NNunderstanding that6416IN/thatthat what6417WPwhat he6418PPhe was6419VBDbe doing6420VVGdo was6421VBDbe immoral6422JJimmoral ,6423,, as6424RBas well6425RBwell as6426INas the6427DTthe inability6428NNinability to6429TOto form6430VVform specific6431JJspecific criminal6432JJcriminal intent6433NNintent .6434SENT. And6435CCand if6436INif ...6437:... if6438INif that6439WDTthat 's6440VBZbe the6441DTthe case6442NNcase ,6443,, if6444INif you6445PPyou look6446VVPlook at6447INat the6448DTthe ...6449:... all6450PDTall the6451DTthe cases6452NNScase and6453CCand say6454VVPsay ,6455,, you6456PPyou know6457VVPknow ,6458,, case6459NNcase after6460INafter case6461NNcase after6462INafter case6463NNcase what6464WPwhat they6465PPthey 're6466VBPbe talking6467VVGtalk about6468RBabout is6469VBZbe something6470RBsomething more6471JJRmore than6472INthan criminal6473JJcriminal intent6474NNintent ,6475,, what6476WPwhat they6477PPthey 're6478VBPbe talking6479VVGtalk about6480RBabout is6481VBZbe some6482DTsome kind6483NNkind of6484INof moral6485JJmoral understanding6486NNunderstanding ,6487,, if6488INif that6489WDTthat 's6490VBZbe the6491DTthe case6492NNcase what6493WDTwhat 's6494VBZbe your6495PP$your best6496JJSgood argument6497NNargument that6498IN/thatthat you6499PPyou should6500MDshould win6501VVwin ?6502SENT? [MR. CROUSE]6503LOC[MR. CROUSE] So6504INso I6505PPI think6506VVPthink I6507PPI have6508VHPhave three6509CDthree .6510SENT. The6511DTthe first6512JJfirst one6513CDone is6514VBZbe the6515DTthe existence6516NNexistence of6517INof strict6518JJstrict liability6519NNliability .6520SENT. The6521DTthe second6522NNsecond would6523MDwould be6524VBbe the6525DTthe existence6526NNexistence of6527INof corporate6528JJcorporate liability6529NNliability .6530SENT. And6531CCand ,6532,, third6533JJthird ,6534,, I6535PPI think6536VVPthink there6537EXthere 's6538VBZbe just6539RBjust the6540DTthe general6541JJgeneral understanding6542NNunderstanding that6543IN/thatthat criminal6544JJcriminal intent6545NNintent has6546VHZhave always6547RBalways been6548VBNbe separated6549VVNseparate from6550INfrom moral6551NNmoral and6552CCand ...6553:... moral6554JJmoral capacity6555NNcapacity .6556SENT. And6557CCand even6558RBeven with6559INwith regard6560NNregard to6561TOto ...6562:... I6563PPI think6564VVPthink the6565DTthe hypothetical6566JJhypothetical you6567PPyou have6568VHPhave suggested6569VVNsuggest ,6570,, I6571PPI think6572VVPthink we6573PPwe would6574MDwould have6575VHhave to6576TOto know6577VVknow whether6578INwhether or6579CCor not6580RBnot the6581DTthe right6582NNright versus6583INversus wrong6584JJwrong test6585NNtest is6586VBZbe being6587VBGbe defined6588VVNdefine in6589INin a6590DTa legal6591JJlegal sense6592NNsense or6593CCor a6594DTa moral6595JJmoral sense6596NNsense .6597SENT. And6598CCand even6599RBeven if6600INif so6601RBso ,6602,, the6603DTthe states6604NNSstate that6605WDTthat have6606VHPhave adopted6607VVNadopt the6608DTthe right6609NNright versus6610INversus wrong6611JJwrong test6612NNtest have6613VHPhave variations6614NNSvariation within6615INwithin them6616PPthem .6617SENT. Some6618RBsome ,6619,, for6620INfor example6621NNexample ,6622,, like6623INlike the6624DTthe federal6625JJfederal government6626NNgovernment ,6627,, to6628TOto my6629PP$my understanding6630NNunderstanding ,6631,, would6632MDwould require6633VVrequire a6634DTa severe6635JJsevere mental6636JJmental illness6637NNillness .6638SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]6639LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] You6640PPyou know6641VVPknow ,6642,, I6643PPI guess6644VVPguess I6645PPI ...6646:... I6647PPI understand6648VVPunderstand that6649IN/thatthat there6650EXthere are6651VBPbe some6652DTsome variations6653NNSvariation in6654INin the6655DTthe historical6656JJhistorical record6657NNrecord and6658CCand even6659RBeven in6660INin states6661NNSstate now6662RBnow ,6663,, but6664CCbut ...6665:... but6666CCbut there6667EXthere are6668VBPbe some6669DTsome number6670NNnumber of6671INof states6672NNSstate ,6673,, a6674DTa great6675JJgreat number6676NNnumber ,6677,, 466678CD@card@ states6679NNSstate ,6680,, 486681CD@card@ states6682NNSstate ,6683,, whatever6684WDTwhatever it6685PPit is6686VBZbe ,6687,, that6688WDTthat go6689VVPgo further6690JJRfurther than6691INthan you6692PPyou do6693VVPdo in6694INin terms6695NNSterm of6696INof saying6697VVGsay something6698NNsomething more6699JJRmore is6700VBZbe required6701VVNrequire than6702INthan the6703DTthe mere6704JJmere capacity6705NNcapacity to6706TOto ...6707:... to6708TOto formulate6709VVformulate criminal6710JJcriminal intent6711NNintent ,6712,, and6713CCand that6714IN/thatthat that6715DTthat something6716NNsomething more6717RBRmore in6718INin large6719JJlarge measure6720NNmeasure is6721VBZbe some6722DTsome ability6723NNability to6724TOto ...6725:... to6726TOto ...6727:... to6728TOto make6729VVmake moral6730JJmoral judgments6731NNSjudgment and6732CCand to6733TOto distinguish6734VVdistinguish between6735INbetween right6736NNright and6737CCand wrong6738JJwrong .6739SENT. And6740CCand ,6741,, again6742RBagain ,6743,, let6744VVPlet 's6745VBZbe just6746RBjust assume6747VVassume that6748DTthat ...6749:... that6750IN/thatthat that6751DTthat 's6752VBZbe what6753WPwhat the6754DTthe historical6755JJhistorical record6756NNrecord said6757VVDsay .6758SENT. I6759PPI know6760VVPknow you6761PPyou do6762VVPdo n't6763RBn't agree6764VVagree with6765INwith that6766DTthat .6767SENT. But6768CCbut let6769VVlet 's6770VBZbe assume6771VVassume that6772IN/thatthat that6773DTthat 's6774VBZbe what6775WPwhat the6776DTthe historical6777JJhistorical record6778NNrecord indicated6779VVDindicate .6780SENT. Could6781MDcould you6782PPyou still6783RBstill win6784VVwin and6785CCand why6786WRBwhy ?6787SENT? [MR. CROUSE]6788LOC[MR. CROUSE] I6789PPI ...6790:... I6791PPI could6792MDcould because6793INbecause of6794INof the6795DTthe nature6796NNnature of6797INof this6798DTthis Court6799NPCourt 's6800POS's inquiry6801NNinquiry .6802SENT. This6803DTthis Court6804NPCourt has6805VHZhave to6806TOto ...6807:... I6808PPI 'm6809VBPbe sorry6810JJsorry ,6811,, Petitioner6812NNpetitioner has6813VHZhave to6814TOto satisfy6815VVsatisfy a6816DTa high6817JJhigh burden6818NNburden to6819TOto identify6820VVidentify a6821DTa particular6822JJparticular rule6823NNrule that6824IN/thatthat the6825DTthe absence6826NNabsence of6827INof which6828WDTwhich Kansas6829NPKansas law6830NNlaw would6831MDwould constitute6832VVconstitute a6833DTa violation6834NNviolation of6835INof a6836DTa deeply-rooted6837JJdeeply-rooted rule6838NNrule .6839SENT. And6840CCand that6841WDTthat simply6842RBsimply does6843VVZdo n't6844RBn't exist6845VVexist based6846VVNbase upon6847INupon the6848DTthe very6849JJvery generalities6850NNSgenerality that6851IN/thatthat we6852PPwe 've6853VHPhave talked6854VVNtalk about6855INabout today6856NNtoday .6857SENT. So6858RBso ...6859:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]6860LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] But6861CCbut it6862PPit seems6863VVZseem that6864IN/thatthat by6865INby its6866PP$its nature6867NNnature ,6868,, if6869INif the6870DTthe principle6871NNprinciple is6872VBZbe ,6873,, as6874INas Justice6875NPJustice Kagan6876NPKagan suggests6877VVZsuggest ,6878,, hypothetically6879RBhypothetically ,6880,, if6881INif it6882PPit 's6883VBZbe historically6884RBhistorically established6885VVNestablish that6886IN/thatthat you6887PPyou cannot6888MDcan punish6889VVpunish people6890NNSpeople who6891WPwho do6892VVPdo n't6893RBn't know6894VVknow the6895DTthe difference6896NNdifference between6897INbetween right6898JJright and6899CCand wrong6900JJwrong ,6901,, that6902WDTthat certainly6903RBcertainly sounds6904VVZsound like6905INlike something6906NNsomething that6907WDTthat is6908VBZbe rooted6909VVNroot in6910INin the6911DTthe conscience6912NNconscience and6913CCand would6914MDwould be6915VBbe ranked6916VVNrank as6917INas fundamental6918JJfundamental .6919SENT. [MR. CROUSE]6920LOC[MR. CROUSE] Well6921UHWell ,6922,, I6923PPI ...6924:... I6925PPI think6926VVPthink what6927WPwhat the6928DTthe ...6929:... what6930WPwhat the6931DTthe ...6932:... and6933CCand I6934PPI do6935VVPdo n't6936RBn't mean6937VVmean to6938TOto fight6939VVfight the6940DTthe hypothetical6941JJhypothetical here6942RBhere ...6943:... but6944CCbut my6945PP$my understanding6946NNunderstanding of6947INof the6948DTthe history6949NNhistory is6950VBZbe that6951IN/thatthat what6952WPwhat has6953VHZhave been6954VBNbe dealt6955VVNdeal with6956INwith throughout6957INthroughout our6958PP$our time6959NNtime is6960VBZbe how6961WRBhow to6962TOto resolve6963VVresolve and6964CCand handle6965VVhandle mental6966JJmental illness6967NNillness within6968INwithin the6969DTthe criminal6970JJcriminal capability6971NNcapability system6972NNsystem .6973SENT. And6974CCand what6975WPwhat this6976DTthis Court6977NPCourt 's6978POS's decision6979NNdecision ,6980,, Arizona6981NPArizona versus6982CCversus Clark6983NPClark said6984VVDsay ,6985,, is6986VBZbe that6987IN/thatthat there6988EXthere is6989VBZbe no6990RBno fundamental6991JJfundamental ...6992:... [JUSTICE BREYER]6993LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You6994PPyou 're6995VBPbe not6996RBnot going6997VVGgo to6998TOto get6999VVget it7000PPit exactly7001RBexactly .7002SENT. I7003PPI mean7004VVPmean ,7005,, it7006PPit is7007VBZbe a7008DTa ...7009:... it7010PPit is7011VBZbe a7012DTa nightmare7013NNnightmare trying7014VVGtry to7015TOto figure7016VVfigure out7017RPout exact7018JJexact standards7019NNSstandard .7020SENT. I7021PPI agree7022VVPagree with7023INwith that7024DTthat .7025SENT. But7026CCbut my7027PP$my question7028NNquestion ,7029,, which7030WDTwhich I7031PPI just7032RBjust hope7033VVPhope you7034PPyou would7035MDwould clarify7036VVclarify ,7037,, because7038INbecause it7039PPit 's7040VBZbe ...7041:... I7042PPI 'm7043VBPbe stumbling7044VVGstumble on7045INon it7046PPit ,7047,, imagine7048VVimagine two7049CDtwo defendants7050NNSdefendant .7051SENT. Both7052DTboth defendants7053NNSdefendant ,7054,, 17055CD1 and7056CCand 27057CD2 ,7058,, are7059VBPbe certified7060JJcertified by7061INby whatever7062WDTwhatever board7063NNboard of7064INof psychiatrists7065NNSpsychiatrist you7066PPyou want7067VVPwant as7068RBas totally7069RBtotally insane7070JJinsane .7071SENT. All7072DTall right7073NNright ?7074SENT? The7075DTthe first7076JJfirst defendant7077NNdefendant shoots7078VVZshoot and7079CCand kills7080VVZkill Smith7081NPSmith .7082SENT. The7083DTthe second7084JJsecond defendant7085NNdefendant shoots7086VVZshoot and7087CCand kills7088VVZkill Jones7089NPJones .7090SENT. The7091DTthe first7092JJfirst defendant7093NNdefendant thinks7094VVZthink that7095IN/thatthat Smith7096NPSmith is7097VBZbe a7098DTa dog7099NNdog .7100SENT. The7101DTthe second7102JJsecond defendant7103NNdefendant knows7104VVZknow it7105PPit 's7106VBZbe a7107DTa person7108NNperson but7109CCbut thinks7110VVZthink the7111DTthe dog7112NNdog told7113VVDtell him7114PPhim to7115TOto do7116VVdo it7117PPit .7118SENT. Okay7119JJokay ?7120SENT? What7121WPWhat 's7122VBZbe the7123DTthe difference7124NNdifference ?7125SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7126LOC[MR. CROUSE] So7127INso I7128PPI think7129VVPthink that7130WDTthat 's7131VBZbe ...7132:... the7133DTthe difference7134NNdifference is7135VBZbe criminal7136JJcriminal intent7137NNintent in7138INin the7139DTthe first7140JJfirst situation7141NNsituation because7142INbecause ,7143,, as7144INas I7145PPI understand7146VVPunderstand the7147DTthe hypothetical7148JJhypothetical ,7149,, the7150DTthe individual7151NNindividual intends7152VVZintend to7153TOto commit7154VVcommit a7155DTa crime7156NNcrime against7157INagainst a7158DTa human7159NNhuman being7160VBGbe .7161SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]7162LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I7163PPI ...7164:... I7165PPI ...7166:... I7167PPI know7168VVPknow these7169DTthese are7170VBPbe words7171NNSword ,7172,, you7173PPyou see7174VVPsee ,7175,, I7176PPI want7177VVPwant it7178PPit looking7179VVGlook for7180INfor something7181NNsomething in7182INin terms7183NNSterm of7184INof criminal7185JJcriminal law7186NNlaw or7187CCor legal7188JJlegal purpose7189NNpurpose or7190CCor human7191JJhuman purpose7192NNpurpose or7193CCor whatever7194WDTwhatever that7195DTthat would7196MDwould treat7197VVtreat the7198DTthe two7199CDtwo ...7200:... why7201WRBwhy treat7202VVtreat them7203PPthem differently7204RBdifferently ?7205SENT? One7206PPone answer7207VVPanswer you7208PPyou 've7209VHPhave given7210VVNgive ,7211,, you7212PPyou said7213VVDsay it7214PPit 's7215VBZbe so7216RBso hard7217JJhard to7218TOto figure7219VVfigure out7220RPout .7221SENT. I7222PPI agree7223VVPagree it7224PPit 's7225VBZbe hard7226JJhard to7227TOto get7228VVget a7229DTa definition7230NNdefinition .7231SENT. That7232DTthat 's7233VBZbe going7234VVGgo to7235TOto be7236VBbe true7237JJtrue in7238INin both7239DTboth cases7240NNScase .7241SENT. You7242PPyou say7243VVPsay criminal7244JJcriminal ,7245,, corporate7246JJcorporate criminal7247JJcriminal liability7248NNliability ,7249,, and7250CCand regulatory7251JJregulatory offenses7252NNSoffense .7253SENT. I7254PPI agree7255VVPagree with7256INwith you7257PPyou ,7258,, you7259PPyou 'd7260MDwould have7261VHhave to7262TOto carve7263VVcarve out7264RPout exceptions7265NNSexception and7266CCand that7267DTthat is7268VBZbe not7269RBnot easy7270JJeasy to7271TOto do7272VVdo .7273SENT. Okay7274JJokay ?7275SENT? I7276PPI 've7277VHPhave got7278VVNget those7279DTthose points7280NNSpoint .7281SENT. But7282CCbut I7283PPI 'm7284VBPbe looking7285VVGlook for7286INfor something7287NNsomething different7288JJdifferent between7289INbetween the7290DTthe two7291CDtwo defendants7292NNSdefendant .7293SENT. The7294DTthe dog7295NNdog ,7296,, there7297RBthere he7298PPhe is7299VBZbe ,7300,, the7301DTthe dog7302NNdog ,7303,, he7304PPhe told7305VVDtell me7306PPme to7307TOto do7308VVdo it7309PPit .7310SENT. They7311PPthey are7312VBPbe both7313CCboth crazy7314JJcrazy .7315SENT. And7316CCand why7317WRBwhy does7318VVZdo Kansas7319NPKansas say7320VVsay one7321PPone is7322VBZbe guilty7323JJguilty ,7324,, the7325DTthe other7326JJother is7327VBZbe not7328RBnot guilty7329JJguilty ?7330SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7331LOC[MR. CROUSE] So7332INso I7333PPI ...7334:... I7335PPI think7336VVPthink that7337IN/thatthat this7338DTthis Court7339NPCourt 's7340POS's cases7341NNScase have7342VHPhave historically7343RBhistorically allowed7344VVNallow legislative7345JJlegislative ...7346:... [JUSTICE BREYER]7347LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I7348PPI do7349VVPdo n't7350RBn't care7351VVcare ...7352:... [MR. CROUSE]7353LOC[MR. CROUSE] ...7354:... bodies7355NNSbody ...7356:... [JUSTICE BREYER]7357LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...7358:... what7359WPwhat the7360DTthe cases7361NNScase say7362VVPsay at7363INat this7364DTthis moment7365NNmoment .7366SENT. I7367PPI 've7368VHPhave read7369VVNread cases7370NNScase ,7371,, my7372PP$my law7373NNlaw clerk7374NNclerk has7375VHZhave found7376VVNfind 407377CD@card@ instances7378NNSinstance ,7379,, going7380VVGgo back7381RBback to7382TOto Bracton7383NPBracton ,7384,, you7385PPyou know7386VVPknow ,7387,, where7388WRBwhere it7389PPit seems7390VVZseem to7391TOto be7392VBbe against7393INagainst you7394PPyou ,7395,, but7396CCbut I7397PPI 'm7398VBPbe not7399RBnot interested7400JJinterested in7401INin that7402DTthat .7403SENT. I7404PPI 'm7405VBPbe interested7406JJinterested in7407INin a7408DTa practical7409JJpractical ,7410,, pragmatic7411JJpragmatic purpose7412NNpurpose ,7413,, in7414INin why7415WRBwhy the7416DTthe law7417NNlaw should7418MDshould treat7419VVtreat those7420DTthose two7421CDtwo cases7422NNScase differently7423RBdifferently .7424SENT. Same7425JJsame question7426NNquestion ,7427,, I7428PPI 've7429VHPhave just7430RBjust now7431RBnow repeated7432VVDrepeat it7433PPit three7434CDthree times7435NNStime ,7436,, and7437CCand I7438PPI am7439VBPbe listening7440VVGlisten for7441INfor your7442PP$your answer7443NNanswer .7444SENT. [MR. CROUSE]7445LOC[MR. CROUSE] So7446RBso ...7447:... and7448CCand I7449PPI apologize7450VVPapologize for7451INfor not7452RBnot getting7453VVGget to7454TOto the7455DTthe answer7456NNanswer of7457INof your7458PP$your question7459NNquestion .7460SENT. I7461PPI think7462VVPthink that7463IN/thatthat the7464DTthe problem7465NNproblem is7466VBZbe that7467IN/thatthat states7468NNSstate have7469VHPhave grappled7470VVNgrapple with7471INwith this7472DTthis and7473CCand they7474PPthey 've7475VHPhave made7476VVNmake different7477JJdifferent moral7478JJmoral judgments7479NNSjudgment as7480INas to7481TOto who7482WPwho is7483VBZbe morally7484RBmorally responsible7485JJresponsible or7486CCor not7487RBnot .7488SENT. And7489CCand this7490DTthis Court7491NPCourt 's7492POS's cases7493NNScase allow7494VVPallow the7495DTthe state7496NNstate legislatures7497NNSlegislature or7498CCor federal7499JJfederal Congress7500NPCongress to7501TOto determine7502VVdetermine whether7503INwhether that7504DTthat person7505NNperson should7506MDshould be7507VBbe or7508CCor should7509MDshould not7510RBnot be7511VBbe held7512VVNhold responsible7513JJresponsible .7514SENT. What7515WPWhat Kansas7516NPKansas does7517VVZdo is7518VBZbe it7519PPit identifies7520VVZidentify those7521DTthose who7522WPwho intend7523VVPintend to7524TOto commit7525VVcommit a7526DTa crime7527NNcrime ,7528,, punishes7529VVZpunish those7530DTthose .7531SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]7532LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You're7533NPYou're ...7534:... you7535PPyou 're7536VBPbe telling7537VVGtell me7538PPme ...7539:... [MR. CROUSE]7540LOC[MR. CROUSE] Our7541NPOur ...7542:... our7543PP$our ...7544:... [JUSTICE BREYER]7545LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] ...7546:... that7547DTthat states7548NNSstate ...7549:... and7550CCand you7551PPyou 're7552VBPbe right7553JJright ,7554,, particularly7555RBparticularly Kansas7556NPKansas ,7557,, do7558VVPdo ,7559,, in7560INin fact7561NNfact ,7562,, treat7563VVPtreat he7564PPhe 's7565VBZbe a7566DTa dog7567NNdog ,7568,, the7569DTthe dog7570NNdog told7571VVDtell me7572PPme to7573TOto do7574VVdo it7575PPit ,7576,, differently7577RBdifferently .7578SENT. But7579CCbut my7580PP$my question7581NNquestion was7582VBDbe why7583WRBwhy ?7584SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7585LOC[MR. CROUSE] Well7586UHwell ,7587,, I7588PPI think7589VVPthink it7590PPit 's7591VBZbe a7592DTa spectrum7593NNspectrum as7594INas to7595TOto what7596WPwhat the7597DTthe states7598NNSstate believe7599VVPbelieve is7600VBZbe appropriate7601JJappropriate .7602SENT. In7603INin Delaware7604NPDelaware ,7605,, for7606INfor example7607NNexample ,7608,, my7609PP$my understanding7610NNunderstanding is7611VBZbe that7612IN/thatthat individual7613NNindividual would7614MDwould not7615RBnot be7616VBbe convicted7617VVNconvict ,7618,, whereas7619INwhereas in7620INin Illinois7621NPIllinois that7622IN/thatthat person7623NNperson could7624MDcould be7625VBbe convicted7626VVNconvict because7627INbecause they7628PPthey know7629VVPknow that7630IN/thatthat shooting7631VVGshoot a7632DTa human7633JJhuman being7634NNbeing is7635VBZbe legally7636RBlegally wrong7637JJwrong .7638SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7639LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Do7640VVPdo you7641PPyou think7642VVPthink ,7643,, General7644NPGeneral Crouse7645NPCrouse ,7646,, that7647WDTthat you7648PPyou could7649MDcould also7650RBalso eliminate7651VVeliminate consideration7652NNconsideration of7653INof the7654DTthe moral7655JJmoral understanding7656NNunderstanding at7657INat sentencing7658NNsentencing ,7659,, in7660INin other7661JJother words7662NNSword ,7663,, take7664VVtake the7665DTthe Justice7666NPJustice Breyer7667NPBreyer example7668NNexample and7669CCand the7670DTthe dog7671NNdog told7672VVDtell me7673PPme to7674TOto do7675VVdo it7676PPit ,7677,, would7678MDwould it7679PPit be7680VBbe unconstitutional7681JJunconstitutional if7682INif your7683PP$your state7684NNstate did7685VVDdo not7686RBnot have7687VHhave a7688DTa procedure7689NNprocedure for7690INfor considering7691VVGconsider that7692IN/thatthat at7693INat sentencing7694NNsentencing ?7695SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7696LOC[MR. CROUSE] So7697RBso obviously7698RBobviously a7699DTa different7700JJdifferent question7701NNquestion and7702CCand I7703PPI think7704VVPthink it7705PPit also7706RBalso engenders7707VVZengender a7708DTa different7709JJdifferent test7710NNtest .7711SENT. I7712PPI think7713VVPthink that7714DTthat ...7715:... that7716IN/thatthat ,7717,, if7718INif you7719PPyou 're7720VBPbe considering7721VVGconsider what7722WPwhat is7723VBZbe available7724JJavailable at7725INat the7726DTthe sentencing7727NNsentencing ,7728,, for7729INfor whether7730INwhether it7731PPit violates7732VVZviolate the7733DTthe constitution7734NNconstitution ,7735,, would7736MDwould implicate7737VVimplicate the7738DTthe Eighth7739JJeighth Amendment7740NPAmendment .7741SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]7742LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well7743UHWell ,7744,, let7745NNlet 's7746VHZhave put7747VVNput the7748DTthe Eighth7749JJeighth Amendment7750NPAmendment to7751TOto the7752DTthe side7753NNside .7754SENT. Let7755NPLet 's7756POS's say7757VVPsay that7758IN/thatthat this7759DTthis is7760VBZbe n't7761RBn't a7762DTa capital7763NNcapital case7764NNcase .7765SENT. All7766DTall right7767NNright ?7768SENT? Does7769VVZdo a7770DTa state7771NNstate just7772RBjust have7773VHPhave to7774TOto have7775VHhave a7776DTa way7777NNway to7778TOto consider7779VVconsider at7780INat sentencing7781NNsentencing somebody7782NNsomebody 's7783POS's complete7784JJcomplete lack7785NNlack of7786INof understanding7787NNunderstanding of7788INof the7789DTthe morality7790NNmorality of7791INof his7792PP$his actions7793NNSaction ?7794SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7795LOC[MR. CROUSE] I7796PPI do7797VVPdo n't7798RBn't believe7799VVbelieve that7800IN/thatthat this7801DTthis Court7802NPCourt 's7803POS's cases7804NNScase would7805MDwould indicate7806VVindicate that7807IN/thatthat the7808DTthe states7809NNSstate have7810VHPhave to7811TOto consider7812VVconsider the7813DTthe morality7814NNmorality at7815INat sentencing7816NNsentencing or7817CCor any7818DTany particular7819JJparticular time7820NNtime .7821SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]7822LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But7823CCbut the7824DTthe ...7825:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7826LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] How7827WRBHow about7828RBabout ...7829:... how7830WRBhow about7831RBabout the7832DTthe mens7833NPmens rea7834NPrea aspect7835NNaspect of7836INof that7837DTthat ?7838SENT? I7839PPI ...7840:... I7841PPI ...7842:... I7843PPI just7844RBjust want7845VVPwant to7846TOto follow7847VVfollow up7848RPup on7849INon Justice7850NPJustice Breyer7851NPBreyer 's7852POS's question7853NNquestion as7854INas well7855RBwell ,7856,, and7857CCand Justice7858NPJustice Kagan7859NPKagan .7860SENT. If7861INif ...7862:... would7863MDwould you7864PPyou ...7865:... would7866MDwould you7867PPyou accept7868VVaccept that7869IN/thatthat at7870INat least7871JJSleast that7872DTthat is7873VBZbe required7874VVNrequire as7875INas a7876DTa matter7877NNmatter of7878INof due7879JJdue process7880NNprocess ,7881,, that7882IN/thatthat some7883DTsome inquiry7884NNinquiry into7885INinto mens7886NPmens rea7887NPrea is7888VBZbe required7889VVNrequire in7890INin these7891DTthese cases7892NNScase ?7893SENT? And7894CCand if7895INif so7896RBso ,7897,, why7898WRBwhy ?7899SENT? And7900CCand if7901INif not7902RBnot ,7903,, why7904WRBwhy ?7905SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7906LOC[MR. CROUSE] Well7907UHWell ,7908,, yes7909UHyes ,7910,, I7911PPI would7912MDwould accept7913VVaccept that7914IN/thatthat carving7915VVGcarve out7916RPout strict7917JJstrict liability7918NNliability in7919INin the7920DTthe corporate7921JJcorporate liability7922NNliability context7923NNcontext .7924SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7925LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Why7926NPWhy ?7927SENT? And7928CCand how7929WRBhow do7930VVPdo you7931PPyou reconcile7932VVreconcile that7933IN/thatthat with7934INwith our7935PP$our strict7936JJstrict liability7937NNliability cases7938NNScase ?7939SENT? [MR. CROUSE]7940LOC[MR. CROUSE] Well7941UHWell ,7942,, I7943PPI ...7944:... I7945PPI think7946VVPthink what7947WPwhat this7948DTthis Court7949NPCourt has7950VHZhave done7951VVNdo is7952VBZbe historically7953RBhistorically guarded7954VVNguard mens7955NPmens rea7956NPrea because7957INbecause that7958WDTthat 's7959VBZbe what7960WPwhat separates7961VVZseparate innocent7962JJinnocent conduct7963NNconduct from7964INfrom criminal7965JJcriminal conduct7966NNconduct .7967SENT. And7968CCand that7969DTthat 's7970VBZbe what7971WPwhat Kansas7972NPKansas has7973VHZhave done7974VVNdo here7975RBhere .7976SENT. [JUSTICE GORSUCH]7977LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] So7978INso you7979PPyou ...7980:... you7981PPyou accept7982VVPaccept that7983IN/thatthat there7984EXthere is7985VBZbe a7986DTa constitutional7987JJconstitutional minimum7988JJminimum floor7989NNfloor below7990INbelow which7991WDTwhich the7992DTthe state7993NNstate ...7994:... states7995NNSstate cannot7996MDcan proceed7997VVproceed with7998INwith respect7999NNrespect to8000TOto mental8001JJmental capacity8002NNcapacity and8003CCand insanity8004NNinsanity ;8005:; you8006PPyou just8007RBjust suggest8008VVPsuggest that8009IN/thatthat you8010PPyou 've8011VHPhave met8012VVNmeet that8013DTthat standard8014NNstandard .8015SENT. [MR. CROUSE]8016LOC[MR. CROUSE] I8017PPI ...8018:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8019LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] Is8020VBZbe that8021IN/thatthat the8022DTthe ...8023:... the8024DTthe nub8025NNnub of8026INof the8027DTthe argument8028NNargument ,8029,, then8030RBthen ?8031SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8032LOC[MR. CROUSE] I8033PPI think8034VVPthink I8035PPI would8036MDwould finely8037RBfinely parse8038VVparse that8039IN/thatthat a8040DTa little8041JJlittle bit8042NNbit .8043SENT. I8044PPI would8045MDwould ...8046:... I8047PPI admit8048VVPadmit that8049IN/thatthat there8050EXthere is8051VBZbe a8052DTa mens8053NPmens rea8054NPrea requirement8055NNrequirement with8056INwith regard8057VVregard to8058TOto how8059WRBhow one8060PPone would8061MDwould define8062VVdefine insanity8063NNinsanity .8064SENT. I8065PPI do8066VVPdo n't8067RBn't believe8068VVbelieve that8069IN/thatthat this8070DTthis Court8071NPCourt has8072VHZhave identified8073VVNidentify a8074DTa floor8075NNfloor and8076CCand suggested8077VVDsuggest that8078IN/thatthat there8079EXthere are8080VBPbe variations8081NNSvariation of8082INof ways8083NNSway to8084TOto handle8085VVhandle ...8086:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8087LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] I8088PPI 'm8089VBPbe not8090RBnot sure8091JJsure I8092PPI understand8093VVPunderstand .8094SENT. You8095PPyou accept8096VVPaccept that8097IN/thatthat states8098NNSstate can8099MDcan define8100VVdefine strict8101JJstrict liability8102NNliability crimes8103NNScrime .8104SENT. I8105PPI do8106VVPdo n't8107RBn't know8108VVknow if8109INif you8110PPyou 've8111VHPhave answered8112VVNanswer Justice8113NPJustice Gorsuch8114NPGorsuch 's8115POS's question8116NNquestion ...8117:... [JUSTICE GORSUCH]8118LOC[JUSTICE GORSUCH] No8119NPNo .8120SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]8121LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...8122:... which8123WDTwhich is8124VBZbe could8125MDcould ...8126:... could8127MDcould you8128PPyou do8129VVdo away8130RBaway with8131INwith the8132DTthe mens8133NPmens rea8134NPrea defense8135NNdefense ?8136SENT? Could8137MDcould you8138PPyou simply8139RBsimply say8140VVPsay we8141PPwe in8142INin Kansas8143NPKansas believe8144VVPbelieve if8145INif you8146PPyou kill8147VVPkill someone8148NNsomeone ,8149,, regardless8150RBregardless of8151INof the8152DTthe reasons8153NNSreason ,8154,, if8155INif you8156PPyou 've8157VHPhave done8158VVNdo the8159DTthe act8160NNact ,8161,, you8162PPyou 've8163VHPhave committed8164VVNcommit murder8165NNmurder ?8166SENT? Period8167NNperiod ,8168,, end8169NNend of8170INof story8171NNstory .8172SENT. No8173DTno mens8174NPmens rea8175NPrea defense8176NNdefense ,8177,, no8178DTno nothing8179NNnothing .8180SENT. [MR. CROUSE]8181LOC[MR. CROUSE] Again8182RBagain ,8183,, I8184PPI think8185VVPthink that8186DTthat is8187VBZbe a8188DTa much8189RBmuch more8190RBRmore difficult8191JJdifficult situation8192NNsituation ,8193,, and8194CCand I8195PPI ...8196:... I8197PPI ...8198:... I8199PPI think8200VVPthink that8201IN/thatthat would8202MDwould present8203VVpresent a8204DTa ...8205:... a8206DTa lot8207NNlot of8208INof additional8209JJadditional problems8210NNSproblem for8211INfor the8212DTthe State8213NPState of8214INof Kansas8215NPKansas because8216INbecause of8217INof this8218DTthis Court8219NPCourt 's8220POS's requirement8221NNrequirement of8222INof having8223VHGhave a8224DTa mens8225NPmens rea8226NPrea baseline8227NNbaseline .8228SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]8229LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Could8230MDcould you8231PPyou ...8232:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8233LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well8234UHWell ,8235,, has8236VHZhave that8237DTthat ...8238:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]8239LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...8240:... get8241VVget rid8242JJrid of8243INof other8244JJother defenses8245NNSdefense ...8246:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8247LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...8248:... ever8249RBever been8250VBNbe ...8251:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]8252LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...8253:... General8254NPGeneral Crouse8255NPCrouse ?8256SENT? Could8257MDcould you8258PPyou get8259VVget rid8260JJrid of8261INof other8262JJother defenses8263NNSdefense ?8264SENT? You8265PPyou know8266VVPknow ,8267,, duress8268NNduress .8269SENT. Could8270MDcould you8271PPyou get8272VVget rid8273JJrid of8274INof the8275DTthe duress8276NNduress defense8277NNdefense ?8278SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8279LOC[MR. CROUSE] Yeah8280NPYeah ,8281,, so8282RBso ...8283:... so8284INso I8285PPI ...8286:... I8287PPI think8288VVPthink the8289DTthe same8290JJsame historical8291JJhistorical analysis8292NNanalysis that8293IN/thatthat we8294PPwe have8295VHPhave undergone8296VVNundergo with8297INwith regard8298NNregard to8299TOto the8300DTthe insanity8301NNinsanity test8302NNtest is8303VBZbe something8304NNsomething that8305IN/thatthat we8306PPwe would8307MDwould have8308VHhave to8309TOto look8310VVlook at8311INat .8312SENT. I8313PPI have8314VHPhave n't8315RBn't done8316VVNdo the8317DTthe ...8318:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8319LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well8320UHWell ,8321,, on8322INon the8323DTthe ...8324:... [MR. CROUSE]8325LOC[MR. CROUSE] ...8326:... individual8327JJindividual research8328NNresearch on8329INon duress8330NNduress ...8331:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8332LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] ...8333:... the8334DTthe history8335NNhistory ...8336:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8337LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] You8338PPyou seem8339VVPseem very8340RBvery reticent8341JJreticent about8342INabout answering8343VVGanswer these8344DTthese questions8345NNSquestion .8346SENT. Has8347VHZhave there8348RBthere ever8349RBever been8350VBNbe ...8351:... can8352MDcan you8353PPyou cite8354VVcite any8355DTany ...8356:... any8357DTany state8358NNstate or8359CCor any8360DTany legal8361JJlegal system8362NNsystem ,8363,, I8364PPI 'll8365MDwill even8366RBeven just8367RBjust limit8368VVlimit it8369PPit to8370TOto English-speaking8371JJEnglish-speaking countries8372NNScountry ,8373,, that8374WDTthat have8375VHPhave ever8376RBever said8377VVNsay that8378IN/thatthat killing8379VVGkill another8380DTanother person8381NNperson is8382VBZbe a8383DTa strict8384JJstrict liability8385NNliability offense8386NNoffense ?8387SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8388LOC[MR. CROUSE] No8389NPNo .8390SENT. And8391CCand ...8392:... and8393CCand Kansas8394NPKansas certainly8395RBcertainly does8396VVZdo n't8397RBn't do8398VVdo that8399DTthat .8400SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8401LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] On8402INon the8403DTthe history8404NNhistory that8405IN/thatthat Justice8406NPJustice Kagan8407NPKagan was8408VBDbe asking8409VVGask about8410RBabout ,8411,, I8412PPI think8413VVPthink your8414PP$your primary8415JJprimary answer8416NNanswer was8417VBDbe that8418IN/thatthat there8419EXthere 's8420VHZhave been8421VBNbe no8422DTno particular8423JJparticular test8424NNtest that8425WDTthat is8426VBZbe historically8427RBhistorically rooted8428VVNroot .8429SENT. But8430CCbut is8431VBZbe n't8432RBn't there8433RBthere a8434DTa baseline8435NNbaseline that8436WDTthat is8437VBZbe historically8438RBhistorically rooted8439VVNroot ,8440,, above8441INabove which8442WDTwhich there8443EXthere have8444VHPhave been8445VBNbe a8446DTa variety8447NNvariety of8448INof tests8449NNStest that8450WDTthat have8451VHPhave been8452VBNbe accepted8453VVNaccept by8454INby the8455DTthe states8456NNSstate until8457INuntil ,8458,, as8459INas Justice8460NPJustice Sotomayor8461NPSotomayor said8462VVDsay ,8463,, until8464INuntil the8465DTthe end8466NNend of8467INof the8468DTthe 20th8469JJ20th century8470NNcentury ?8471SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8472LOC[MR. CROUSE] I8473PPI ...8474:... I8475PPI think8476VVPthink I8477PPI would8478MDwould agree8479VVagree that8480IN/thatthat the8481DTthe states8482NNSstate have8483VHPhave ...8484:... organized8485VVNorganize societies8486NNSsociety have8487VHPhave consistently8488RBconsistently struggled8489VVNstruggle with8490INwith how8491WRBhow to8492TOto define8493VVdefine and8494CCand handle8495VVhandle mental8496JJmental illness8497NNillness ,8498,, but8499CCbut I8500PPI do8501VVPdo n't8502RBn't believe8503VVbelieve that8504IN/thatthat there8505EXthere has8506VHZhave been8507VBNbe a8508DTa baseline8509NNbaseline that8510WDTthat has8511VHZhave been8512VBNbe established8513VVNestablish beneath8514INbeneath which8515WDTwhich the8516DTthe states8517NNSstate could8518MDcould go8519VVgo .8520SENT. [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8521LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] Well8522UHWell ,8523,, since8524INsince the8525DTthe early8526JJearly 1800s8527NN1800s ,8528,, at8529INat least8530JJSleast ,8531,, to8532TOto the8533DTthe late8534JJlate 20th8535JJ20th century8536NNcentury in8537INin the8538DTthe United8539NPUnited States8540NPSStates ,8541,, did8542VVDdo n't8543RBn't every8544DTevery state8545NNstate allow8546VVallow some8547DTsome form8548NNform of8549INof a8550DTa separate8551JJseparate insanity8552NNinsanity defense8553NNdefense at8554INat the8555DTthe guilt8556NNguilt phase8557NNphase ?8558SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8559LOC[MR. CROUSE] My8560PP$my understanding8561NNunderstanding is8562VBZbe that8563IN/thatthat the8564DTthe treatment8565NNtreatment of8566INof insanity8567NNinsanity has8568VHZhave varied8569VVNvary within8570INwithin particular8571JJparticular parameters8572NNSparameter .8573SENT. For8574INfor example8575NNexample ,8576,, some8577DTsome states8578NNSstate would8579MDwould require8580VVrequire an8581DTan affirmative8582JJaffirmative defense8583NNdefense .8584SENT. Kansas8585NPKansas ,8586,, for8587INfor example8588NNexample ,8589,, did8590VVDdo n't8591RBn't have8592VHhave a8593DTa separate8594JJseparate defense8595NNdefense .8596SENT. It8597PPit ...8598:... [JUSTICE KAVANAUGH]8599LOC[JUSTICE KAVANAUGH] But8600CCbut all8601DTall separate8602JJseparate ...8603:... let8604VVlet me8605PPme just8606RBjust focus8607VVPfocus on8608INon my8609PP$my question8610NNquestion .8611SENT. All8612DTall ...8613:... all8614PDTall the8615DTthe states8616NNSstate had8617VHDhave something8618NNsomething separate8619JJseparate from8620INfrom the8621DTthe mens8622NPmens rea8623NPrea approach8624NNapproach at8625INat the8626DTthe guilt8627NNguilt phase8628NNphase through8629INthrough the8630DTthe end8631NNend of8632INof the8633DTthe 20th8634JJ20th century8635NNcentury ;8636:; is8637VBZbe n't8638RBn't that8639IN/thatthat correct8640JJcorrect as8641INas a8642DTa matter8643NNmatter of8644INof historical8645JJhistorical practice8646NNpractice ?8647SENT? You8648PPyou can8649MDcan still8650RBstill win8651VVwin the8652DTthe case8653NNcase ,8654,, as8655INas Justice8656NPJustice Kagan8657NPKagan noted8658VVDnote ,8659,, but8660CCbut just8661RBjust to8662TOto make8663VVmake sure8664JJsure we8665PPwe 're8666VBPbe on8667INon the8668DTthe same8669JJsame page8670NNpage .8671SENT. [MR. CROUSE]8672LOC[MR. CROUSE] Yeah8673NPYeah ,8674,, and8675CCand I8676PPI 'm8677VBPbe not8678RBnot trying8679VVGtry to8680TOto ...8681:... to8682TOto skip8683VVskip the8684DTthe answer8685NNanswer ,8686,, because8687INbecause I8688PPI think8689VVPthink Kansas8690NPKansas actually8691RBactually included8692VVDinclude it8693PPit as8694INas part8695NNpart of8696INof the8697DTthe guilt8698NNguilt phase8699NNphase .8700SENT. It8701PPit did8702VVDdo n't8703RBn't have8704VHhave a8705DTa separate8706JJseparate insanity8707NNinsanity defense8708NNdefense .8709SENT. So8710RBso ,8711,, for8712INfor example8713NNexample ,8714,, it8715PPit came8716VVDcome in8717INin with8718INwith a8719DTa different8720JJdifferent definition8721NNdefinition .8722SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8723LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I8724PPI mean8725VVPmean ,8726,, you8727PPyou 're8728VBPbe saying8729VVGsay all8730DTall states8731NNSstate had8732VHDhave a8733DTa separate8734JJseparate insanity8735NNinsanity defense8736NNdefense in8737INin 58738CD5 17918739CD@card@ ?8740SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8741LOC[MR. CROUSE] I8742PPI ...8743:... I8744PPI ...8745:... I8746PPI do8747VVPdo n't8748RBn't believe8749VVbelieve I8750PPI was8751VBDbe saying8752VVGsay that8753DTthat ...8754:... [JUSTICE ALITO]8755LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] No8756NPNo .8757SENT. [MR. CROUSE]8758LOC[MR. CROUSE] ...8759:... they8760PPthey have8761VHPhave separate8762JJseparate defenses8763NNSdefense .8764SENT. I8765PPI think8766VVPthink they8767PPthey handled8768VVDhandle it8769PPit differently8770RBdifferently .8771SENT. Some8772DTsome of8773INof them8774PPthem defined8775VVDdefine it8776PPit as8777INas an8778DTan affirmative8779JJaffirmative defense8780NNdefense .8781SENT. Some8782DTsome of8783INof them8784PPthem put8785VVPput it8786PPit in8787INin a8788DTa separate8789JJseparate proceeding8790NNproceeding .8791SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8792LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Some8793RBsome of8794INof them8795PPthem handled8796VVDhandle it8797PPit through8798INthrough mens8799NPmens rea8800NPrea ,8801,, did8802VVDdo they8803PPthey not8804RBnot ?8805SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8806LOC[MR. CROUSE] They8807PPthey have8808VHPhave .8809SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8810LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Does8811VVZdo mens8812NPmens rea8813NPrea for8814INfor murder8815NNmurder or8816CCor for8817INfor any8818DTany other8819JJother criminal8820JJcriminal defense8821NNdefense vary8822VVPvary from8823INfrom case8824NNcase to8825TOto case8826NNcase ?8827SENT? Is8828VBZbe it8829PPit not8830RBnot the8831DTthe same8832JJsame in8833INin every8834DTevery case8835NNcase regardless8836RBregardless of8837INof whether8838INwhether the8839DTthe person8840NNperson claims8841VVZclaim to8842TOto be8843VBbe mentally8844RBmentally ill8845JJill or8846CCor not8847RBnot ?8848SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8849LOC[MR. CROUSE] The8850DTthe mens8851NPmens rea8852NPrea element8853NNelement would8854MDwould be8855VBbe consistent8856JJconsistent in8857INin an8858DTan attempt8859NNattempt to8860TOto commit8861VVcommit a8862DTa crime8863NNcrime ,8864,, yes8865UHyes .8866SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8867LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] So8868RBso if8869INif the8870DTthe mens8871NPmens rea8872NPrea element8873NNelement traditionally8874RBtraditionally incorporated8875VVDincorporate a8876DTa requirement8877NNrequirement of8878INof moral8879JJmoral capability8880NNcapability ...8881:... of8882INof moral8883JJmoral culpability8884NNculpability ,8885,, that8886WDTthat would8887MDwould apply8888VVapply across8889INacross the8890DTthe board8891NNboard ,8892,, would8893MDwould it8894PPit not8895RBnot ?8896SENT? Not8897RBnot just8898RBjust to8899TOto cases8900NNScase where8901WRBwhere the8902DTthe person8903NNperson says8904VVZsay this8905DTthis is8906VBZbe ...8907:... I8908PPI ...8909:... I8910PPI had8911VHDhave this8912DTthis lack8913NNlack of8914INof capacity8915NNcapacity due8916JJdue to8917TOto mental8918JJmental illness8919NNillness ,8920,, but8921CCbut I8922PPI have8923VHPhave it8924PPit due8925JJdue to8926TOto political8927JJpolitical brainwashing8928NNbrainwashing or8929CCor religious8930JJreligious fanaticism8931NNfanaticism or8932CCor any8933DTany other8934JJother reason8935NNreason ?8936SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8937LOC[MR. CROUSE] That8938DTthat 's8939VBZbe correct8940JJcorrect ,8941,, Justice8942NPJustice Alito8943NPAlito .8944SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]8945LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I8946PPI mean8947VVPmean ,8948,, is8949VBZbe that8950DTthat ...8951:... was8952VBDbe was8953VBDbe that8954IN/thatthat the8955DTthe traditional8956JJtraditional understanding8957NNunderstanding of8958INof mens8959NPmens rea8960NPrea ?8961SENT? [MR. CROUSE]8962LOC[MR. CROUSE] So8963INso I8964PPI do8965VVPdo n't8966RBn't believe8967VVbelieve that8968WDTthat was8969VBDbe consistent8970JJconsistent with8971INwith the8972DTthe historical8973JJhistorical understanding8974NNunderstanding of8975INof mens8976NPmens rea8977NPrea .8978SENT. And8979CCand I8980PPI think8981VVPthink it8982PPit 's8983VBZbe also8984RBalso inconsistent8985JJinconsistent with8986INwith general8987JJgeneral criminal8988JJcriminal principles8989NNSprinciple in8990INin which8991WDTwhich we8992PPwe do8993VVPdo n't8994RBn't look8995VVlook at8996INat the8997DTthe motive8998NNmotive of8999INof the9000DTthe individual9001NNindividual committing9002VVGcommit the9003DTthe crime9004NNcrime ...9005:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]9006LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Would9007MDwould ...9008:... would9009MDwould you9010PPyou agree9011VVagree that9012IN/thatthat historically9013RBhistorically ,9014,, if9015INif you9016PPyou go9017VVPgo back9018RBback and9019CCand you9020PPyou look9021VVPlook at9022INat the9023DTthe cases9024NNScase ,9025,, you9026PPyou see9027VVPsee this9028DTthis operating9029VVGoperate in9030INin two9031CDtwo categories9032NNScategory of9033INof cases9034NNScase .9035SENT. One9036PPone is9037VBZbe for9038INfor insane9039JJinsane people9040NNSpeople ,9041,, and9042CCand one9043PPone is9044VBZbe for9045INfor what9046WPwhat were9047VBDbe then9048RBthen called9049VVNcall idiots9050NNSidiot ,9051,, right9052RBright ,9053,, people9054NNSpeople who9055WPwho lacked9056VVDlack mental9057JJmental capacity9058NNcapacity ?9059SENT? So9060RBso ,9061,, I9062PPI mean9063VVPmean ,9064,, but9065CCbut ...9066:... but9067CCbut for9068INfor those9069DTthose people9070NNSpeople ,9071,, it9072PPit came9073VVDcome up9074RPup again9075RBagain and9076CCand again9077RBagain that9078DTthat ,9079,, yes9080UHyes ,9081,, you9082PPyou know9083VVPknow ,9084,, you9085PPyou lack9086VVPlack the9087DTthe moral9088JJmoral capacity9089NNcapacity to9090TOto understand9091VVunderstand what9092WPwhat you9093PPyou 're9094VBPbe doing9095VVGdo and9096CCand ,9097,, therefore9098RBtherefore ,9099,, the9100DTthe criminal9101JJcriminal system9102NNsystem ought9103MDought to9104TOto operate9105VVoperate differently9106RBdifferently on9107INon you9108PPyou .9109SENT. Isn't9110NNIsn't ...9111:... is9112VBZbe n't9113RBn't that9114DTthat right9115NNright ?9116SENT? [MR. CROUSE]9117LOC[MR. CROUSE] So9118INso I9119PPI would9120MDwould push9121VVpush back9122RBback only9123RBonly in9124INin ...9125:... in9126INin regard9127NNregard to9128TOto whether9129INwhether or9130CCor not9131RBnot it9132PPit was9133VBDbe a9134DTa moral9135JJmoral capability9136NNcapability .9137SENT. I9138PPI think9139VVPthink ,9140,, historically9141RBhistorically ,9142,, it9143PPit 's9144VBZbe looked9145VVNlook at9146INat a9147DTa cognitive9148JJcognitive capability9149NNcapability as9150INas to9151TOto whether9152INwhether we9153PPwe could9154MDcould ...9155:... can9156MDcan take9157VVtake intent9158NNintent to9159TOto commit9160VVcommit a9161DTa crime9162NNcrime .9163SENT. And9164CCand I9165PPI do9166VVPdo n't9167RBn't think9168VVthink that9169IN/thatthat the9170DTthe moral9171JJmoral capacity9172NNcapacity came9173VVDcome in9174INin until9175INuntil the9176DTthe M'Naghten9177JJM'Naghten era9178NNera as9179INas to9180TOto ...9181:... we9182PPwe asked9183VVDask whether9184INwhether or9185CCor not9186RBnot someone9187NNsomeone knew9188VVDknow it9189PPit was9190VBDbe right9191JJright and9192CCand wrong9193JJwrong to9194TOto commit9195VVcommit a9196DTa crime9197NNcrime .9198SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]9199LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] But9200CCbut it9201PPit was9202VBDbe n't9203RBn't phrased9204VVNphrase at9205INat that9206DTthat .9207SENT. I9208PPI mean9209VVPmean ,9210,, it9211PPit 's9212VBZbe quite9213RBquite deep9214JJdeep ,9215,, this9216DTthis question9217NNquestion .9218SENT. It9219PPit 's9220VBZbe like9221INlike ethics9222NNSethic and9223CCand Aristotle9224NNAristotle .9225SENT. The9226DTthe wind9227NNwind blew9228VVDblow my9229PP$my hand9230NNhand .9231SENT. You9232PPyou do9233VVPdo n't9234RBn't hold9235VVhold him9236PPhim ...9237:... well9238UHwell ,9239,, I9240PPI 'll9241MDwill save9242VVsave my9243PP$my depth9244NNdepth for9245INfor later9246RBRlater .9247SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9248LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Finish9249VVfinish your9250PP$your question9251NNquestion .9252SENT. [JUSTICE BREYER]9253LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] I9254PPI 'm9255VBPbe not9256RBnot sure9257JJsure I9258PPI want9259VVPwant to9260TOto .9261SENT. [9262SYM[ LAUGHTER9263NNlaughter ]9264SYM] [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9265LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank9266VVthank you9267PPyou ,9268,, counsel9269NNcounsel .9270SENT. [MR. CROUSE]9271LOC[MR. CROUSE] Thank9272VVthank you9273PPyou .9274SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]9275LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Ms9276NNMs .9277SENT. Prelogar9278NPPrelogar .9279SENT.

[MS. PRELOGAR]9280LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] Mr9281NPMr .9282SENT. Chief9283NPChief Justice9284NPJustice ,9285,, and9286CCand may9287MDmay it9288PPit please9289VVplease the9290DTthe Court9291NPCourt :9292:: Petitioner9293NNpetitioner bears9294VVZbear the9295DTthe burden9296NNburden of9297INof establishing9298VVGestablish that9299IN/thatthat substantive9300JJsubstantive due9301JJdue process9302NNprocess principles9303NNSprinciple override9304VVoverride the9305DTthe Kansas9306NPKansas legislature9307NNlegislature 's9308POS's judgment9309NNjudgment in9310INin this9311DTthis case9312NNcase in9313INin adopting9314VVGadopt a9315DTa mens9316NPmens rea9317NPrea test9318NNtest of9319INof insanity9320NNinsanity ,9321,, and9322CCand he9323PPhe has9324VHZhave not9325RBnot carried9326VVNcarry that9327DTthat burden9328NNburden .9329SENT. Petitioner9330NNpetitioner suggests9331VVZsuggest that9332IN/thatthat this9333DTthis Court9334NPCourt should9335MDshould recognize9336VVrecognize a9337DTa theory9338NNtheory of9339INof moral9340JJmoral culpability9341NNculpability and9342CCand impose9343VVimpose that9344IN/thatthat uniformly9345RBuniformly across9346INacross the9347DTthe states9348NNSstate .9349SENT. But9350CCbut the9351DTthe problem9352NNproblem with9353INwith that9354DTthat approach9355NNapproach is9356VBZbe ,9357,, both9358CCboth as9359INas a9360DTa matter9361NNmatter of9362INof history9363NNhistory and9364CCand in9365INin contemporaneous9366JJcontemporaneous practice9367NNpractice ,9368,, there9369EXthere has9370VHZhave been9371VBNbe no9372DTno agreement9373NNagreement on9374INon the9375DTthe precise9376JJprecise circumstances9377NNScircumstance when9378WRBwhen mental9379JJmental illness9380NNillness should9381MDshould excuse9382VVexcuse criminal9383JJcriminal responsibility9384NNresponsibility .9385SENT. And9386CCand I9387PPI 'd9388MDwould like9389VVlike to9390TOto begin9391VVbegin ,9392,, actually9393RBactually ,9394,, with9395INwith the9396DTthe hypotheticals9397NNShypotheticals that9398IN/thatthat Justice9399NPJustice Sotomayor9400NPSotomayor and9401CCand Justice9402NPJustice Breyer9403NPBreyer brought9404VVDbring up9405RPup ,9406,, because9407INbecause I9408PPI think9409VVPthink that9410IN/thatthat this9411DTthis actually9412RBactually illustrates9413VVZillustrate that9414IN/thatthat even9415RBeven in9416INin contemporary9417JJcontemporary jurisdictions9418NNSjurisdiction today9419NNtoday ,9420,, there9421EXthere is9422VBZbe a9423DTa basic9424JJbasic divide9425NNdivide on9426INon when9427WRBwhen someone9428NNsomeone should9429MDshould be9430VBbe entitled9431VVNentitle to9432TOto invoke9433VVinvoke the9434DTthe insanity9435NNinsanity defense9436NNdefense .9437SENT. And9438CCand this9439DTthis gets9440VVZget to9441TOto the9442DTthe ...9443:... the9444DTthe difference9445NNdifference between9446INbetween legal9447JJlegal wrong9448JJwrong and9449CCand moral9450JJmoral wrong9451NNwrong .9452SENT. Even9453RBeven in9454INin those9455DTthose jurisdictions9456NNSjurisdiction that9457WDTthat adopt9458VVPadopt a9459DTa wrongfulness9460NNwrongfulness test9461NNtest ,9462,, the9463DTthe one9464CDone that9465IN/thatthat Petitioner9466NNpetitioner is9467VBZbe proposing9468VVGpropose ,9469,, there9470EXthere is9471VBZbe differential9472JJdifferential treatment9473NNtreatment of9474INof defendants9475NNSdefendant based9476VVNbase on9477INon whether9478INwhether they9479PPthey could9480MDcould appreciate9481VVappreciate that9482IN/thatthat their9483PP$their conduct9484NNconduct violated9485VVDviolate the9486DTthe law9487NNlaw and9488CCand constituted9489VVDconstitute a9490DTa crime9491NNcrime or9492CCor not9493RBnot .9494SENT. So9495RBso imagine9496VVimagine the9497DTthe defendant9498NNdefendant who9499WPwho hears9500VVZhear voices9501NNSvoice that9502WDTthat command9503VVPcommand him9504PPhim to9505TOto kill9506VVkill in9507INin order9508NNorder to9509TOto save9510VVsave the9511DTthe human9512JJhuman race9513NNrace .9514SENT. He9515PPhe knows9516VVZknow that9517IN/thatthat murder9518NNmurder is9519VBZbe a9520DTa crime9521NNcrime and9522CCand that9523IN/thatthat he9524PPhe 'd9525MDwould be9526VBbe violating9527VVGviolate the9528DTthe law9529NNlaw ,9530,, but9531CCbut he9532PPhe thinks9533VVZthink the9534DTthe action9535NNaction is9536VBZbe morally9537RBmorally justified9538VVNjustify because9539INbecause of9540INof his9541PP$his mental9542JJmental illness9543NNillness .9544SENT. In9545INin a9546DTa substantial9547JJsubstantial number9548NNnumber of9549INof jurisdictions9550NNSjurisdiction ,9551,, he9552PPhe would9553MDwould not9554RBnot be9555VBbe entitled9556VVNentitle to9557TOto invoke9558VVinvoke the9559DTthe insanity9560NNinsanity defense9561NNdefense .9562SENT. And9563CCand so9564RBso to9565TOto try9566VVtry to9567TOto recognize9568VVrecognize or9569CCor articulate9570VVarticulate a9571DTa theory9572NNtheory of9573INof moral9574JJmoral culpability9575NNculpability ,9576,, I9577PPI think9578VVPthink ,9579,, has9580VHZhave ...9581:... has9582VHZhave no9583DTno roots9584NNSroot in9585INin history9586NNhistory and9587CCand would9588MDwould actually9589RBactually raise9590VVraise the9591DTthe possibility9592NNpossibility of9593INof challenging9594VVGchallenge state9595NNstate laws9596NNSlaw across9597INacross the9598DTthe nation9599NNnation .9600SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9601LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Excuse9602NNexcuse me9603PPme .9604SENT. We9605PPwe have9606VHPhave ...9607:... every9608DTevery state9609NNstate has9610VHZhave a9611DTa duress9612NNduress defense9613NNdefense .9614SENT. They9615PPthey all9616RBall vary9617VVPvary .9618SENT. They9619PPthey all9620RBall have9621VHPhave different9622JJdifferent exceptions9623NNSexception .9624SENT. They9625PPthey all9626RBall have9627VHPhave different9628JJdifferent articulations9629NNSarticulation .9630SENT. There9631EXthere 's9632VBZbe never9633RBnever been9634VBNbe a9635DTa common9636JJcommon one9637CDone ,9638,, but9639CCbut all9640DTall 509641CD@card@ have9642VHPhave them9643PPthem .9644SENT. And9645CCand the9646DTthe essence9647NNessence of9648INof it9649PPit is9650VBZbe defined9651VVNdefine very9652RBvery simply9653RBsimply as9654INas duress9655NNduress ,9656,, compulsion9657NNcompulsion .9658SENT. And9659CCand we9660PPwe give9661VVPgive wide9662JJwide ,9663,, wide9664JJwide ,9665,, incredible9666JJincredible latitude9667NNlatitude to9668TOto the9669DTthe states9670NNSstate to9671TOto define9672VVdefine those9673DTthose circumstances9674NNScircumstance .9675SENT. I9676PPI think9677VVPthink what9678WPwhat your9679PP$your adversary9680NNadversary is9681VBZbe saying9682VVGsay is9683VBZbe that9684IN/thatthat making9685VVGmake this9686DTthis go9687VVPgo simply9688RBsimply to9689TOto intent9690NNintent and9691CCand taking9692VVGtake out9693RPout some9694DTsome differentiation9695NNdifferentiation from9696INfrom the9697DTthe true9698JJtrue lunatic9699NNlunatic who9700WPwho knows9701VVZknow it9702PPit 's9703VBZbe wrong9704JJwrong to9705TOto kill9706VVkill a9707DTa person9708NNperson but9709CCbut the9710DTthe TV9711NNTV made9712VVDmake him9713PPhim do9714VVPdo it9715PPit ,9716,, no9717DTno volition9718NNvolition whatsoever9719RBwhatsoever to9720TOto conform9721VVconform his9722PP$his conduct9723NNconduct to9724TOto the9725DTthe law9726NNlaw ,9727,, no9728DTno ability9729NNability ,9730,, I9731PPI think9732VVPthink it9733PPit 's9734VBZbe more9735RBRmore moral9736JJmoral incapacity9737NNincapacity ,9738,, rather9739RBrather than9740INthan capacity9741NNcapacity .9742SENT. The9743DTthe intent-based9744JJintent-based defenses9745NNSdefense do9746VVPdo n't9747RBn't encompass9748VVencompass that9749IN/thatthat in9750INin any9751DTany way9752NNway .9753SENT. This9754DTthis is9755VBZbe not9756RBnot like9757INlike Clark9758NPClark where9759WRBwhere we9760PPwe found9761VVDfind that9762IN/thatthat the9763DTthe two9764CDtwo prongs9765NNSprong of9766INof the9767DTthe M'Naghten9768JJM'Naghten test9769NNtest were9770VBDbe really9771RBreally encompassed9772VVNencompass in9773INin the9774DTthe first9775JJfirst .9776SENT. That9777DTthat 's9778VBZbe what9779WPwhat the9780DTthe problem9781NNproblem is9782VBZbe for9783INfor me9784PPme .9785SENT. There9786EXthere is9787VBZbe an9788DTan essence9789NNessence ,9790,, just9791RBjust as9792INas there9793EXthere is9794VBZbe an9795DTan essence9796NNessence of9797INof compulsion9798NNcompulsion for9799INfor duress9800NNduress as9801INas a9802DTa defense9803NNdefense mechanism9804NNmechanism ,9805,, there9806EXthere is9807VBZbe some9808DTsome minor9809JJminor amount9810NNamount that9811WDTthat has9812VHZhave to9813TOto excuse9814VVexcuse criminal9815JJcriminal liability9816NNliability .9817SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]9818LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] And9819CCand ,9820,, Justice9821NPJustice Sotomayor9822NPSotomayor ,9823,, Kansas9824NPKansas here9825RBhere has9826VHZhave recognized9827VVNrecognize cognitive9828JJcognitive incapacity9829NNincapacity as9830INas the9831DTthe way9832NNway that9833IN/thatthat you9834PPyou excuse9835VVexcuse criminal9836JJcriminal responsibility9837NNresponsibility when9838WRBwhen you9839PPyou are9840VBPbe assessing9841VVGassess these9842DTthese difficult9843JJdifficult issues9844NNSissue of9845INof how9846WRBhow mental9847JJmental illness9848NNillness should9849MDshould function9850VVfunction to9851TOto excuse9852VVexcuse criminal9853JJcriminal culpability9854NNculpability in9855INin a9856DTa criminal9857JJcriminal justice9858NNjustice system9859NNsystem .9860SENT. [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9861LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But9862CCbut that9863WDTthat 's9864VBZbe ...9865:... [MS. PRELOGAR]9866LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] I9867PPI think9868VVPthink that9869DTthat ...9870:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9871LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...9872:... where9873WRBwhere we9874PPwe differ9875VVPdiffer .9876SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]9877LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] But9878CCbut to9879TOto the9880DTthe extent9881NNextent that9882IN/thatthat what9883WPwhat ...9884:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9885LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] Because9886INbecause you9887PPyou could9888MDcould know9889VVknow something9890NNsomething is9891VBZbe against9892INagainst the9893DTthe law9894NNlaw and9895CCand still9896RBstill not9897RBnot have9898VHhave the9899DTthe ability9900NNability to9901TOto conform9902VVconform your9903PP$your conduct9904NNconduct .9905SENT. If9906INif I9907PPI make9908VVPmake a9909DTa moral9910JJmoral choice9911NNchoice I9912PPI could9913MDcould say9914VVsay ,9915,, if9916INif it9917PPit 's9918VBZbe only9919RBonly a9920DTa moral9921JJmoral choice9922NNchoice ,9923,, I9924PPI could9925MDcould say9926VVsay I9927PPI do9928VVPdo n't9929RBn't wish9930VVwish to9931TOto do9932VVdo it9933PPit because9934INbecause of9935INof my9936PP$my morality9937NNmorality .9938SENT. Could9939MDcould I9940PPI physically9941RBphysically stop9942VVstop myself9943PPmyself ?9944SENT? Yes9945UHyes .9946SENT. Someone9947NNsomeone who9948WPwho is9949VBZbe insane9950JJinsane can9951MDcan 't9952RB't even9953RBeven physically9954RBphysically stop9955VVstop themselves9956PPthemselves .9957SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]9958LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] And9959CCand our9960PP$our ...9961:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]9962LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] But9963CCbut that9964DTthat 's9965VBZbe a9966DTa different9967JJdifferent ,9968,, sort9969NNsort of9970INof ...9971:... [MS. PRELOGAR]9972LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] I9973PPI absolutely9974RBabsolutely agree9975VVPagree it9976PPit 's9977VBZbe a9978DTa different9979JJdifferent test9980NNtest of9981INof insanity9982NNinsanity .9983SENT. As9984INas this9985DTthis Court9986NPCourt has9987VHZhave recognized9988VVNrecognize ,9989,, jurisdictions9990NNSjurisdiction have9991VHPhave struggled9992VVNstruggle with9993INwith this9994DTthis across9995INacross time9996NNtime and9997CCand across9998INacross different9999JJdifferent places10000NNSplace and10001CCand they10002PPthey 've10003VHPhave settled10004VVNsettle on10005INon different10006JJdifferent variants10007NNSvariant in10008INin trying10009VVGtry to10010TOto identify10011VVidentify the10012DTthe precise10013JJprecise circumstances10014NNScircumstance ...10015:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10016LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But10017CCbut ,10018,, Ms10019NNMs ...10020:... .10021SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]10022LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] Which10023WDTwhich would10024MDwould pull10025VVpull someone10026NNsomeone totally10027RBtotally outside10028INoutside the10029DTthe realm10030NNrealm of10031INof ...10032:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10033LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms10034NNMs .10035SENT. Prelogar10036NNPrelogar ...10037:... [MS. PRELOGAR]10038LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] ...10039:... criminal10040JJcriminal culpability10041NNculpability .10042SENT. [JUSTICE KAGAN]10043LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] ...10044:... what10045WPwhat you10046PPyou are10047VBPbe suggesting10048VVGsuggest as10049INas a10050DTa test10051NNtest for10052INfor insanity10053NNinsanity is10054VBZbe not10055RBnot a10056DTa test10057NNtest for10058INfor insanity10059NNinsanity .10060SENT. It10061PPit 's10062VBZbe just10063RBjust the10064DTthe usual10065JJusual intent10066NNintent requirement10067NNrequirement that10068IN/thatthat we10069PPwe apply10070VVPapply to10071TOto all10072DTall defendants10073NNSdefendant .10074SENT. If10075INif the10076DTthe defendant10077NNdefendant does10078VVZdo n't10079RBn't have10080VHhave the10081DTthe intent10082NNintent to10083TOto kill10084VVkill ,10085,, then10086RBthen the10087DTthe defendant10088NNdefendant is10089VBZbe not10090RBnot culpable10091JJculpable for10092INfor that10093DTthat act10094NNact .10095SENT. And10096CCand it10097PPit has10098VHZhave nothing10099NNnothing to10100TOto do10101VVdo with10102INwith his10103PP$his insanity10104NNinsanity or10105CCor not10106RBnot .10107SENT. And10108CCand I10109PPI think10110VVPthink that10111IN/thatthat the10112DTthe question10113NNquestion Ms10114NNMs ...10115:... .10116SENT. Justice10117NPJustice Sotomayor10118NPSotomayor is10119VBZbe asking10120VVGask is10121VBZbe ,10122,, is10123VBZbe there10124RBthere something10125NNsomething else10126NNelse that10127WDTthat 's10128VBZbe necessary10129JJnecessary ?10130SENT? And10131CCand we10132PPwe would10133MDwould leave10134VVleave a10135DTa lot10136NNlot of10137INof flexibility10138NNflexibility to10139TOto the10140DTthe states10141NNSstate ,10142,, but10143CCbut that10144DTthat something10145NNsomething else10146RBelse is10147VBZbe ...10148:... is10149VBZbe something10150NNsomething that10151WDTthat relates10152VVZrelate particularly10153RBparticularly to10154TOto insane10155JJinsane defendants10156NNSdefendant ,10157,, to10158TOto ,10159,, you10160PPyou know10161VVPknow ,10162,, their10163PP$their ability10164NNability to10165TOto say10166VVsay ,10167,, because10168INbecause I10169PPI have10170VHPhave a10171DTa mental10172JJmental illness10173NNillness ,10174,, there10175EXthere has10176VHZhave to10177TOto be10178VBbe something10179NNsomething more10180RBRmore .10181SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]10182LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] So10183INso I10184PPI do10185VVPdo n't10186RBn't think10187VVthink that10188IN/thatthat there10189EXthere is10190VBZbe something10191NNsomething else10192RBelse here10193RBhere .10194SENT. And10195CCand as10196INas this10197DTthis Court10198NPCourt has10199VHZhave recognized10200VVNrecognize ,10201,, the10202DTthe guidepost10203NNguidepost is10204VBZbe history10205NNhistory .10206SENT. What10207WPWhat Petitioner10208NNpetitioner needs10209VVZneed to10210TOto do10211VVdo is10212VBZbe come10213VVcome forward10214RBforward with10215INwith some10216DTsome kind10217NNkind of10218INof historical10219JJhistorical consensus10220NNconsensus establishing10221VVGestablish that10222IN/thatthat there10223EXthere 's10224VBZbe a10225DTa fundamental10226JJfundamental principle10227NNprinciple that10228IN/thatthat Kansas10229NPKansas 's10230POS's mens10231NPmens rea10232NPrea approach10233NNapproach is10234VBZbe violating10235VVGviolate .10236SENT. And10237CCand actually10238RBactually the10239DTthe mens10240NPmens rea10241NPrea approach10242NNapproach is10243VBZbe itself10244PPitself one10245CDone that10246WDTthat was10247VBDbe linked10248VVNlink to10249TOto the10250DTthe common10251JJcommon law10252NNlaw early10253JJearly articulations10254NNSarticulation of10255INof insanity10256NNinsanity .10257SENT. It10258PPit was10259VBDbe long10260RBlong understood10261VVNunderstand that10262IN/thatthat one10263CDone of10264INof the10265DTthe ways10266NNSway you10267PPyou might10268MDmight try10269VVtry to10270TOto identify10271VVidentify that10272DTthat class10273NNclass of10274INof individuals10275NNSindividual who10276WPwho should10277MDshould be10278VBbe declared10279VVNdeclare legally10280RBlegally insane10281JJinsane as10282INas a10283DTa legal10284JJlegal concept10285NNconcept was10286VBDbe to10287TOto look10288VVlook at10289INat those10290DTthose who10291WPwho did10292VVDdo n't10293RBn't have10294VHhave capacity10295NNcapacity to10296TOto form10297VVform criminal10298JJcriminal intent10299NNintent .10300SENT. And10301CCand I10302PPI ...10303:... I10304PPI want10305VVPwant to10306TOto pause10307VVpause ...10308:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10309LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] But10310CCbut ...10311:... [MS. PRELOGAR]10312LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] ...10313:... for10314INfor a10315DTa moment10316NNmoment ...10317:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10318LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Ms10319NNMs .10320SENT. Prelogar10321NPPrelogar ,10322,, let10323VVNlet 's10324POS's just10325RBjust say10326VVPsay I10327PPI disagree10328VVPdisagree with10329INwith this10330DTthis ,10331,, that10332IN/thatthat when10333WRBwhen I10334PPI look10335VVPlook back10336RBback at10337INat the10338DTthe history10339NNhistory I10340PPI see10341VVPsee lots10342NNSlot of10343INof cases10344NNScase ,10345,, Rex10346NPRex v10347NNv .10348SENT. Arnold10349NPArnold ,10350,, Billingham10351NPBillingham ,10352,, a10353DTa number10354NNnumber of10355INof others10356NNSother ,10357,, which10358WDTwhich make10359VVPmake it10360PPit quite10361RBquite clear10362JJclear ,10363,, I10364PPI mean10365VVPmean ,10366,, these10367DTthese are10368VBPbe all10369DTall people10370NNSpeople who10371WPwho had10372VHDhave an10373DTan intent10374NNintent to10375TOto kill10376VVkill .10377SENT. And10378CCand what10379WPwhat the10380DTthe common10381JJcommon law10382NNlaw was10383VBDbe saying10384VVGsay was10385VBDbe that10386IN/thatthat even10387RBeven though10388INthough they10389PPthey had10390VHDhave the10391DTthe intent10392NNintent to10393TOto kill10394VVkill ,10395,, there10396EXthere was10397VBDbe going10398VVGgo to10399TOto be10400VBbe a10401DTa further10402JJRfurther inquiry10403NNinquiry into10404INinto how10405WRBhow their10406PP$their insanity10407NNinsanity limited10408VVDlimit their10409PP$their moral10410JJmoral understanding10411NNunderstanding ,10412,, that10413WDTthat ...10414:... their10415PP$their understanding10416NNunderstanding of10417INof wrongfulness10418NNwrongfulness of10419INof their10420PP$their act10421NNact .10422SENT. So10423RBso if10424INif I10425PPI think10426VVPthink that10427IN/thatthat that10428DTthat 's10429VBZbe kind10430NNkind of10431INof all10432DTall over10433INover the10434DTthe history10435NNhistory ,10436,, how10437WRBhow do10438VVPdo I10439PPI find10440VVfind for10441INfor you10442PPyou ?10443SENT? [MS. PRELOGAR]10444LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] Well10445UHwell ,10446,, I10447PPI want10448VVPwant to10449TOto make10450VVmake clear10451JJclear that10452IN/thatthat even10453RBeven if10454INif you10455PPyou thought10456VVDthink this10457DTthis was10458VBDbe a10459DTa novel10460NNnovel approach10461NNapproach that10462WDTthat did10463VVDdo n't10464RBn't have10465VHhave roots10466NNSroot in10467INin history10468NNhistory ,10469,, the10470DTthe Court10471NPCourt has10472VHZhave many10473JJmany times10474NNStime recognized10475VVDrecognize that10476IN/thatthat outlier10477NNoutlier states10478NNSstate are10479VBPbe n't10480RBn't necessarily10481RBnecessarily violating10482VVGviolate substantive10483JJsubstantive due10484JJdue process10485NNprocess .10486SENT. Leland10487NPLeland versus10488FWversus Oregon10489NPOregon ,10490,, for10491INfor example10492NNexample ,10493,, was10494VBDbe a10495DTa case10496NNcase where10497WRBwhere Oregon10498NPOregon was10499VBDbe the10500DTthe only10501JJonly state10502NNstate in10503INin the10504DTthe nation10505NNnation that10506WDTthat required10507VVDrequire defendants10508NNSdefendant to10509TOto prove10510VVprove their10511PP$their insanity10512NNinsanity beyond10513INbeyond a10514DTa reasonable10515JJreasonable doubt10516NNdoubt .10517SENT. So10518RBso I10519PPI do10520VVPdo n't10521RBn't think10522VVthink that10523IN/thatthat that10524DTthat 's10525VBZbe cause10526VVcause alone10527RBalone to10528TOto think10529VVthink that10530IN/thatthat somehow10531RBsomehow this10532DTthis is10533VBZbe violating10534VVGviolate a10535DTa fundamental10536JJfundamental principle10537NNprinciple .10538SENT. And10539CCand I10540PPI think10541VVPthink ,10542,, actually10543RBactually ,10544,, looking10545VVGlook at10546INat the10547DTthe jury10548NNjury instructions10549NNSinstruction in10550INin some10551DTsome of10552INof the10553DTthe cases10554NNScase that10555IN/thatthat you10556PPyou mentioned10557VVDmention ,10558,, Justice10559NPJustice Kagan10560NPKagan ,10561,, like10562INlike Rex10563NPRex versus10564CCversus Arnold10565NPArnold ,10566,, the10567DTthe jury10568NNjury was10569VBDbe instructed10570VVNinstruct there10571RBthere that10572IN/thatthat the10573DTthe defendant10574NNdefendant had10575VHDhave to10576TOto be10577VBbe shown10578VVNshow to10579TOto have10580VHhave no10581DTno understanding10582NNunderstanding or10583CCor memory10584NNmemory such10585JJsuch that10586IN/thatthat he10587PPhe could10588MDcould form10589VVform no10590DTno intent10591NNintent whatsoever10592RBwhatsoever .10593SENT. That10594DTthat is10595VBZbe a10596DTa restrictive10597JJrestrictive test10598NNtest of10599INof insanity10600NNinsanity .10601SENT. It10602PPit 's10603VBZbe focused10604VVNfocus on10605INon this10606DTthis same10607JJsame idea10608NNidea of10609INof cognitive10610JJcognitive incapacity10611NNincapacity ...10612:... [JUSTICE KAGAN]10613LOC[JUSTICE KAGAN] Well10614UHwell ,10615,, it10616PPit 's10617VBZbe ...10618:... it10619PPit 's10620VBZbe less10621RBRless helpful10622JJhelpful to10623TOto me10624PPme to10625TOto go10626VVgo over10627INover each10628DTeach case10629NNcase one10630CDone by10631INby one10632CDone than10633INthan for10634INfor you10635PPyou to10636TOto tell10637VVtell me10638PPme that10639IN/thatthat if10640INif ,10641,, you10642PPyou know10643VVPknow ,10644,, if10645INif I10646PPI ...10647:... what10648WPwhat I10649PPI think10650VVPthink is10651VBZbe true10652JJtrue is10653VBZbe that10654IN/thatthat the10655DTthe history10656NNhistory ,10657,, there10658EXthere 's10659VBZbe ...10660:... there10661EXthere 's10662VBZbe ...10663:... there10664EXthere 's10665VBZbe just10666RBjust a10667DTa ton10668NNton that10669WDTthat suggests10670VVZsuggest that10671DTthat ...10672:... that10673IN/thatthat there10674EXthere was10675VBDbe something10676NNsomething more10677JJRmore than10678INthan a10679DTa requirement10680NNrequirement that10681IN/thatthat the10682DTthe defendant10683NNdefendant have10684VHPhave ...10685:... be10686VBbe able10687JJable to10688TOto form10689VVform an10690DTan intent10691NNintent to10692TOto kill10693VVkill .10694SENT. Does10695VVZdo ...10696:... does10697VVZdo Ms10698NNMs .10699SENT. Schrup10700NPSchrup then10701RBthen win10702VVwin ?10703SENT? [MS. PRELOGAR]10704LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] I10705PPI do10706VVPdo n't10707RBn't think10708VVthink so10709RBso ,10710,, because10711INbecause Petitioner10712NNpetitioner still10713RBstill bears10714VVZbear the10715DTthe burden10716NNburden of10717INof trying10718VVGtry to10719TOto articulate10720VVarticulate with10721INwith precision10722NNprecision what10723WPwhat that10724DTthat something10725NNsomething more10726RBRmore is10727VBZbe .10728SENT. And10729CCand I10730PPI ...10731:... [JUSTICE BREYER]10732LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You10733PPyou can10734MDcan ...10735:... [MS. PRELOGAR]10736LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] ...10737:... think10738VVPthink for10739INfor this10740DTthis here10741RBhere ...10742:... [JUSTICE BREYER]10743LOC[JUSTICE BREYER] You10744PPyou can10745MDcan ,10746,, I10747PPI mean10748VVPmean ,10749,, that10750WDTthat was10751VBDbe the10752DTthe point10753NNpoint of10754INof my10755PP$my question10756NNquestion ,10757,, I10758PPI think10759VVPthink .10760SENT. The10761DTthe law10762NNlaw has10763VHZhave many10764JJmany ,10765,, many10766JJmany ways10767NNSway of10768INof ,10769,, in10770INin different10771JJdifferent circumstances10772NNScircumstance ,10773,, trying10774VVGtry to10775TOto separate10776VVseparate out10777RPout individuals10778NNSindividual for10779INfor whom10780WPwhom the10781DTthe criminal10782JJcriminal justice10783NNjustice system10784NNsystem is10785VBZbe just10786RBjust not10787RBnot going10788VVGgo to10789TOto work10790VVwork in10791INin terms10792NNSterm of10793INof preventing10794VVGprevent ,10795,, et10796CCet cetera10797NPcetera ,10798,, the10799DTthe crimes10800NNScrime .10801SENT. One10802CDOne ,10803,, the10804DTthe wind10805NNwind blew10806VVDblow my10807PP$my arm10808NNarm .10809SENT. Okay10810JJokay ?10811SENT? Two10812CDTwo ,10813,, duress10814NNduress ,10815,, because10816INbecause in10817INin a10818DTa duress10819NNduress case10820NNcase you10821PPyou 're10822VBPbe looking10823VVGlook to10824TOto see10825VVsee could10826MDcould the10827DTthe ...10828:... could10829MDcould the10830DTthe defendant10831NNdefendant have10832VHPhave done10833VVNdo otherwise10834RBotherwise .10835SENT. With10836INwith insanity10837NNinsanity you10838PPyou 're10839VBPbe close10840JJclose to10841TOto that10842DTthat .10843SENT. Often10844RBoften it10845PPit 's10846VBZbe a10847DTa question10848NNquestion of10849INof could10850MDcould the10851DTthe defendant10852NNdefendant have10853VHPhave done10854VVNdo otherwise10855RBotherwise .10856SENT. And10857CCand even10858RBeven where10859WRBwhere not10860RBnot ,10861,, it10862PPit is10863VBZbe is10864VBZbe this10865DTthis individual10866NNindividual so10867RBso different10868JJdifferent from10869INfrom an10870DTan ordinary10871JJordinary individual10872NNindividual that10873IN/thatthat it10874PPit just10875RBjust does10876VVZdo n't10877RBn't make10878VVmake sense10879NNsense to10880TOto apply10881VVapply the10882DTthe law10883NNlaw ?10884SENT? Now10885RBnow ,10886,, if10887INif some10888DTsome something10889NNsomething like10890INlike that10891WDTthat is10892VBZbe going10893VVGgo on10894RPon ,10895,, then10896RBthen my10897PP$my question10898NNquestion ,10899,, if10900INif ,10901,, in10902INin fact10903NNfact ,10904,, he10905PPhe 's10906VBZbe the10907DTthe dog10908NNdog ,10909,, out10910RBout .10911SENT. Why10912WRBwhy is10913VBZbe n't10914RBn't it10915PPit ?10916SENT? The10917DTthe dog10918NNdog told10919VVDtell me10920PPme to10921TOto do10922VVdo it10923PPit .10924SENT. Now10925RBnow ,10926,, that10927WDTthat 's10928VBZbe the10929DTthe fourth10930JJfourth time10931NNtime I10932PPI have10933VHPhave asked10934VVNask that10935RBthat .10936SENT. But10937CCbut I10938PPI would10939MDwould like10940VVlike to10941TOto know10942VVknow what10943WPwhat you10944PPyou think10945VVPthink about10946INabout it10947PPit .10948SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]10949LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] So10950INso these10951DTthese are10952VBPbe obviously10953RBobviously difficult10954JJdifficult questions10955NNSquestion ,10956,, Justice10957NPJustice Breyer10958NPBreyer .10959SENT. They10960PPthey 're10961VBPbe ones10962NNSone that10963IN/thatthat societies10964NNSsociety have10965VHPhave wrestled10966VVNwrestle with10967INwith for10968INfor centuries10969NNScentury in10970INin trying10971VVGtry to10972TOto balance10973VVbalance the10974DTthe medical10975JJmedical and10976CCand moral10977JJmoral and10978CCand legal10979JJlegal judgments10980NNSjudgment that10981WDTthat go10982VVPgo into10983INinto crafting10984VVGcraft an10985DTan insanity10986NNinsanity rule10987NNrule .10988SENT. This10989DTthis Court10990NPCourt has10991VHZhave long10992RBlong recognized10993VVNrecognize that10994IN/thatthat states10995NNSstate have10996VHPhave principal10997JJprincipal responsibility10998NNresponsibility to10999TOto do11000VVdo that11001DTthat .11002SENT. And11003CCand I11004PPI think11005VVPthink that11006IN/thatthat there11007EXthere are11008VBPbe various11009JJvarious ways11010NNSway states11011NNSstate could11012MDcould decide11013VVdecide that11014IN/thatthat they11015PPthey want11016VVPwant to11017TOto distinguish11018VVdistinguish between11019INbetween those11020DTthose two11021CDtwo defendants11022NNSdefendant .11023SENT. For11024INfor one11025CDone thing11026NNthing that11027DTthat cognitive11028JJcognitive incapacity11029NNincapacity test11030NNtest which11031WDTwhich focuses11032VVZfocus on11033INon whether11034INwhether the11035DTthe individual11036NNindividual thinks11037VVZthink that11038IN/thatthat the11039DTthe person11040NNperson he11041PPhe shot11042VVDshoot was11043VBDbe a11044DTa dog11045NNdog ,11046,, might11047MDmight be11048VBbe an11049DTan easier11050JJReasy inquiry11051NNinquiry for11052INfor juries11053NNSjury to11054TOto undertake11055VVundertake .11056SENT. It11057PPit might11058MDmight be11059VBbe a11060DTa more11061RBRmore readily-observable11062JJreadily-observable sign11063NNsign of11064INof mental11065JJmental illness11066NNillness and11067CCand less11068RBRless likely11069JJlikely to11070TOto lead11071VVlead to11072TOto confusion11073NNconfusion about11074INabout what11075WPwhat was11076VBDbe actually11077RBactually in11078INin the11079DTthe defendant11080NNdefendant 's11081POS's mind11082NNmind and11083CCand whether11084INwhether he11085PPhe was11086VBDbe considering11087VVGconsider right11088JJright versus11089CCversus wrong11090JJwrong .11091SENT. A11092DTa jurisdiction11093NNjurisdiction might11094MDmight also11095RBalso think11096VVthink that11097IN/thatthat looking11098VVGlook at11099INat considerations11100NNSconsideration of11101INof individual11102JJindividual culpability11103NNculpability ,11104,, they11105PPthey do11106VVPdo n't11107RBn't want11108VVwant an11109DTan on11110RBon /11111SYM/ off11112JJoff switch11113NNswitch for11114INfor criminal11115JJcriminal responsibility11116NNresponsibility but11117CCbut ,11118,, rather11119RBrather ,11120,, want11121VVPwant to11122TOto shift11123VVshift those11124DTthose considerations11125NNSconsideration to11126TOto the11127DTthe sentencing11128NNsentencing stage11129NNstage where11130WRBwhere a11131DTa judge11132NNjudge can11133MDcan take11134VVtake evidence11135NNevidence and11136CCand make11137VVmake a11138DTa more11139RBRmore nuanced11140JJnuanced determination11141NNdetermination of11142INof individual11143JJindividual culpability11144NNculpability .11145SENT. Ultimately11146RBultimately ...11147:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]11148LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] How11149WRBHow does11150VVZdo that11151DTthat stay11152NNstay ...11153:... [MS. PRELOGAR]11154LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] ...11155:... I11156PPI think11157VVPthink that11158IN/thatthat these11159DTthese ...11160:... [JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR]11161LOC[JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR] ...11162:... consistent11163JJconsistent with11164INwith Apprendi11165NPApprendi ,11166,, assuming11167VVGassume we11168PPwe find11169VVPfind that11170IN/thatthat since11171INsince the11172DTthe beginning11173NNbeginning of11174INof modern11175JJmodern thought11176NNthought that11177IN/thatthat there11178EXthere is11179VBZbe an11180DTan irreducible11181JJirreducible minimum11182NNminimum of11183INof due11184JJdue process11185NNprocess that11186WDTthat requires11187VVZrequire the11188DTthe insane11189NNinsane to11190TOto be11191VBbe not11192RBnot convicted11193VVNconvict by11194INby a11195DTa judge11196NNjudge or11197CCor put11198VVput in11199INin a11200DTa mental11201JJmental institution11202NNinstitution by11203INby a11204DTa judge11205NNjudge but11206CCbut by11207INby a11208DTa jury11209NNjury ?11210SENT? [MS. PRELOGAR]11211LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] May11212MDmay I11213PPI answer11214VVanswer ,11215,, Mr11216NPMr .11217SENT. Chief11218NPChief Justice11219NPJustice ?11220SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11221LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Yes11222NPYes .11223SENT. [MS. PRELOGAR]11224LOC[MS. PRELOGAR] There11225RBthere would11226MDwould still11227RBstill be11228VBbe a11229DTa question11230NNquestion ,11231,, Justice11232NPJustice Sotomayor11233NPSotomayor ,11234,, of11235INof how11236WRBhow you11237PPyou define11238VVPdefine who11239WPwho is11240VBZbe the11241DTthe insane11242NNinsane .11243SENT. That11244DTthat 's11245VBZbe a11246DTa legal11247JJlegal concept11248NNconcept .11249SENT. It11250PPit 's11251VBZbe one11252CDone that11253WDTthat 's11254VHZhave yielded11255VVNyield no11256DTno single11257JJsingle formulation11258NNformulation .11259SENT. And11260CCand I11261PPI think11262VVPthink for11263INfor this11264DTthis Court11265NPCourt to11266TOto try11267VVtry to11268TOto articulate11269VVarticulate a11270DTa theory11271NNtheory of11272INof moral11273JJmoral culpability11274NNculpability could11275MDcould throw11276VVthrow into11277INinto question11278NNquestion state11279NNstate laws11280NNSlaw across11281INacross the11282DTthe nation11283NNnation that11284WDTthat are11285VBPbe trying11286VVGtry to11287TOto make11288VVmake these11289DTthese difficult11290JJdifficult judgments11291NNSjudgment .11292SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]11293LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank11294VVthank you11295PPyou ,11296,, counsel11297NNcounsel .11298SENT. Ms11299NNMs .11300SENT. Schrup11301NPSchrup ,11302,, you11303PPyou have11304VHPhave five11305CDfive minutes11306NNSminute remaining11307VVGremain .11308SENT.

[MS. SCHRUP]11309LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Thank11310VVthank you11311PPyou ,11312,, Mr11313NPMr .11314SENT. Chief11315NPChief Justice11316NPJustice .11317SENT. I11318PPI 'd11319MDwould like11320VVlike to11321TOto make11322VVmake three11323CDthree quick11324JJquick points11325NNSpoint :11326:: First11327NPFirst ,11328,, the11329DTthe problem11330NNproblem with11331INwith the11332DTthe mens11333NPmens rea11334NPrea approach11335NNapproach ,11336,, to11337TOto get11338VVget to11339TOto Justice11340NPJustice Breyer11341NPBreyer and11342CCand Sotomayor11343NPSotomayor 's11344POS's point11345NNpoint ,11346,, is11347VBZbe that11348IN/thatthat it11349PPit scrapes11350VVZscrape out11351RPout the11352DTthe why11353WRBwhy ,11354,, the11355DTthe underlying11356VVGunderlie motivation11357NNmotivation fueled11358VVNfuel by11359INby mental11360JJmental illness11361NNillness that11362WDTthat explains11363VVZexplain a11364DTa defendant11365NNdefendant 's11366POS's act11367NNact .11368SENT. And11369CCand that11370WDTthat has11371VHZhave been11372VBNbe a11373DTa part11374NNpart of11375INof our11376PP$our history11377NNhistory for11378INfor centuries11379NNScentury .11380SENT. And11381CCand that11382DTthat gets11383VVZget to11384TOto the11385DTthe dog11386NNdog or11387CCor the11388DTthe dog11389NNdog example11390NNexample .11391SENT. It11392PPit 's11393VBZbe completely11394RBcompletely arbitrary11395JJarbitrary .11396SENT. I11397PPI do11398VVPdo n't11399RBn't know11400VVknow why11401WRBwhy if11402INif you11403PPyou think11404VVPthink ...11405:... why11406WRBwhy one11407CDone defendant11408NNdefendant who11409WPwho thinks11410VVZthink that11411IN/thatthat a11412DTa dog11413NNdog ,11414,, he11415PPhe 's11416VBZbe shooting11417VVGshoot a11418DTa dog11419NNdog ,11420,, versus11421CCversus another11422DTanother one11423CDone who11424WPwho thinks11425VVZthink a11426DTa dog11427NNdog is11428VBZbe ordering11429VVGorder him11430PPhim to11431TOto shoot11432VVshoot someone11433NNsomeone else11434RBelse ,11435,, makes11436VVZmake any11437DTany difference11438NNdifference whatsoever11439RBwhatsoever .11440SENT. The11441DTthe first11442JJfirst person11443NNperson is11444VBZbe acquitted11445VVNacquit and11446CCand let11447VVlet out11448RPout on11449INon the11450DTthe streets11451NNSstreet and11452CCand the11453DTthe second11454NNsecond is11455VBZbe put11456VVNput in11457INin jail11458NNjail and11459CCand maybe11460RBmaybe put11461VVput to11462TOto death11463NNdeath .11464SENT. The11465DTthe second11466JJsecond piece11467NNpiece of11468INof this11469DTthis ...11470:... and11471CCand so11472RBso there11473EXthere 's11474VBZbe no11475DTno safety11476NNsafety net11477NNnet ,11478,, basically11479RBbasically .11480SENT. What11481WPWhat Kansas11482NPKansas does11483VVZdo ,11484,, actually11485RBactually ,11486,, is11487VBZbe even11488RBeven more11489RBRmore extreme11490JJextreme because11491INbecause it11492PPit limits11493VVZlimit the11494DTthe kind11495NNkind of11496INof mental11497JJmental illness11498NNillness evidence11499NNevidence that11500WDTthat could11501MDcould come11502VVcome in11503INin ,11504,, and11505CCand it11506PPit is11507VBZbe essentially11508RBessentially advocating11509VVGadvocate ...11510:... it11511PPit ...11512:... it11513PPit never11514RBnever explains11515VVZexplain why11516WRBwhy or11517CCor whether11518INwhether there11519EXthere is11520VBZbe any11521DTany light11522NNlight between11523INbetween the11524DTthe wild11525JJwild beast11526NNbeast test11527NNtest and11528CCand the11529DTthe M'Naghten11530NNM'Naghten I11531PPI test11532VVPtest ,11533,, but11534CCbut either11535DTeither way11536NNway it11537PPit is11538VBZbe fundamentally11539RBfundamentally different11540JJdifferent than11541INthan what11542WPwhat we11543PPwe have11544VHPhave had11545VHNhave historically11546RBhistorically and11547CCand what11548WPwhat 4811549CD@card@ jurisdictions11550NNSjurisdiction retain11551VVPretain .11552SENT. Second11553RBsecond ,11554,, I11555PPI 'd11556MDwould like11557VVlike to11558TOto turn11559VVturn to11560TOto my11561PP$my friend11562NNfriend on11563INon the11564DTthe other11565JJother side11566NNside 's11567POS's notion11568NNnotion that11569WDTthat ...11570:... that11571IN/thatthat there11572EXthere is11573VBZbe some11574DTsome limits11575NNSlimit .11576SENT. He11577PPhe actually11578RBactually does11579VVZdo n't11580RBn't suggest11581VVsuggest anything11582NNanything .11583SENT. And11584CCand if11585INif you11586PPyou look11587VVPlook at11588INat page11589NNpage 3911590CD@card@ and11591CCand 4011592CD@card@ of11593INof their11594PP$their brief11595NNbrief ,11596,, basically11597RBbasically everything11598NNeverything is11599VBZbe up11600RBup for11601INfor grabs11602NNSgrab .11603SENT. There11604EXthere can11605MDcan be11606VBbe no11607DTno mens11608NPmens rea11609NPrea .11610SENT. They11611PPthey can11612MDcan make11613VVmake everything11614NNeverything strict11615JJstrict liability11616NNliability .11617SENT. Duress11618NNduress ,11619,, self-defense11620NNself-defense ,11621,, all11622RBall of11623INof these11624DTthese defenses11625NNSdefense are11626VBPbe on11627INon the11628DTthe line11629NNline because11630INbecause ,11631,, according11632VVGaccord to11633TOto them11634PPthem ,11635,, all11636DTall that11637WDTthat 's11638VBZbe required11639VVNrequire in11640INin Kansas11641NPKansas is11642VBZbe a11643DTa voluntary11644JJvoluntary act11645NNact and11646CCand intentionality11647NNintentionality .11648SENT. And11649CCand ,11650,, finally11651RBfinally ,11652,, turning11653VVGturn back11654RBback to11655TOto history11656NNhistory ,11657,, it11658PPit 's11659VBZbe just11660RBjust not11661RBnot right11662JJright to11663TOto say11664VVsay that11665IN/thatthat the11666DTthe right11667NNright and11668CCand wrong11669JJwrong principle11670NNprinciple is11671VBZbe a11672DTa 19th11673JJ19th Century11674NNcentury invention11675NNinvention .11676SENT. There11677EXthere is11678VBZbe a11679DTa wall11680NNwall of11681INof cases11682NNScase and11683CCand authorities11684NNSauthority starting11685VVGstart in11686INin the11687DTthe 1500s11688JJ1500s and11689CCand continuing11690JJcontinuing ,11691,, uninterrupted11692JJuninterrupted ,11693,, all11694RBall the11695DTthe way11696NNway through11697INthrough until11698INuntil 184311699CD@card@ when11700WRBwhen M'Naghten11701NPM'Naghten was11702VBDbe formed11703VVNform .11704SENT. There11705EXthere 's11706VBZbe literally11707RBliterally scores11708NNSscore of11709INof cases11710NNScase ,11711,, here11712RBhere and11713CCand in11714INin England11715NPEngland ,11716,, applying11717VVGapply the11718DTthe right11719NNright and11720CCand wrong11721JJwrong principle11722NNprinciple .11723SENT. To11724TOTo contrast11725VVcontrast that11726IN/thatthat with11727INwith the11728DTthe test11729NNtest that11730IN/thatthat they11731PPthey suggest11732VVPsuggest ,11733,, which11734WDTwhich is11735VBZbe essentially11736RBessentially the11737DTthe wild11738JJwild beast11739NNbeast test11740NNtest ,11741,, that11742WDTthat was11743VBDbe invoked11744VVNinvoke maybe11745RBmaybe two11746CDtwo or11747CCor three11748CDthree times11749NNStime .11750SENT. It11751PPit was11752VBDbe a11753DTa blip11754NNblip .11755SENT. So11756RBso history11757NNhistory favors11758VVZfavor us11759PPus .11760SENT. And11761CCand although11762INalthough due11763JJdue process11764NNprocess is11765VBZbe a11766DTa rigorous11767JJrigorous burden11768NNburden for11769INfor a11770DTa petitioner11771NNpetitioner to11772TOto meet11773VVmeet ,11774,, we11775PPwe satisfy11776VVPsatisfy it11777PPit here11778RBhere because11779INbecause they11780PPthey have11781VHPhave taken11782VVNtake something11783NNsomething out11784RPout of11785INof our11786PP$our fundamental11787JJfundamental criminal11788JJcriminal culpability11789NNculpability ,11790,, what11791WPwhat we11792PPwe believe11793VVPbelieve as11794INas a11795DTa country11796NNcountry ,11797,, they11798PPthey have11799VHPhave scraped11800VVNscrape it11801PPit out11802RPout and11803CCand they11804PPthey are11805VBPbe punishing11806VVGpunish the11807DTthe insane11808NNinsane as11809INas a11810DTa result11811NNresult .11812SENT. If11813INif this11814DTthis Court11815NPCourt has11816VHZhave no11817DTno further11818JJRfurther questions11819NNSquestion ,11820,, we11821PPwe would11822MDwould ask11823VVask you11824PPyou to11825TOto please11826VVplease ...11827:... [JUSTICE ALITO]11828LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well11829UHwell ,11830,, I11831PPI would11832MDwould ...11833:... [MS. SCHRUP]11834LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...11835:... reverse11836VVreverse the11837DTthe case11838NNcase .11839SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]11840LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...11841:... ask11842VVask you11843PPyou a11844DTa question11845NNquestion if11846INif you11847PPyou ...11848:... if11849INif you11850PPyou 've11851VHPhave finished11852VVNfinish your11853PP$your ...11854:... your11855PP$your ...11856:... the11857DTthe comments11858NNScomment that11859WDTthat you11860PPyou want11861VVPwant to11862TOto make11863VVmake .11864SENT. In11865INin your11866PP$your reply11867NNreply brief11868NNbrief you11869PPyou say11870VVPsay that11871IN/thatthat the11872DTthe state11873NNstate 's11874POS's premise11875NNpremise is11876VBZbe that11877IN/thatthat insanity11878NNinsanity was11879VBDbe traditionally11880RBtraditionally tied11881VVNtie to11882TOto a11883DTa lack11884NNlack of11885INof mens11886NPmens rea11887NPrea .11888SENT. And11889CCand you11890PPyou say11891VVPsay ...11892:... you11893PPyou agree11894VVPagree with11895INwith that11896DTthat ,11897,, right11898RBright ?11899SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]11900LOC[MS. SCHRUP] It11901PPit was11902VBDbe tied11903VVNtie to11904TOto common11905JJcommon law11906NNlaw intent11907NNintent ,11908,, if11909INif we11910PPwe use11911VVPuse the11912DTthe term11913NNterm mens11914NPmens rea11915NPrea ,11916,, but11917CCbut it11918PPit was11919VBDbe tied11920VVNtie to11921TOto common11922JJcommon law11923NNlaw intent11924NNintent ,11925,, which11926WDTwhich is11927VBZbe a11928DTa very11929RBvery different11930JJdifferent term11931NNterm than11932INthan what11933WPwhat they11934PPthey used11935VVDuse ,11936,, Justice11937NPJustice Alito11938NPAlito .11939SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]11940LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Well11941UHwell ,11942,, you11943PPyou ...11944:... I11945PPI ...11946:... I11947PPI 'll11948MDwill quote11949VVquote you11950PPyou :11951:: "11952``" The11953DTthe state11954NNstate 's11955POS's premise11956NNpremise is11957VBZbe that11958IN/thatthat insanity11959NNinsanity was11960VBDbe traditionally11961RBtraditionally tied11962VVNtie to11963TOto a11964DTa lack11965NNlack of11966INof mens11967NPmens rea11968NPrea ,11969,, true11970JJtrue ,11971,, but11972CCbut mens11973NPmens rea11974NPrea historically11975RBhistorically required11976VVDrequire precisely11977RBprecisely the11978DTthe moral11979JJmoral blame11980NNblame worthiness11981NNworthiness that11982IN/thatthat Kansas11983NPKansas law11984NNlaw now11985RBnow excludes11986VVZexclude .11987SENT. "11988''" So11989RBso that11990DTthat 's11991VBZbe your11992PP$your historical11993JJhistorical position11994NNposition .11995SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]11996LOC[MS. SCHRUP] That11997DTthat 's11998VBZbe half11999NNhalf of12000INof our12001PP$our ...12002:... [JUSTICE ALITO]12003LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And12004CCand how12005WRBhow do12006VVPdo you12007PPyou reconcile12008VVreconcile that12009IN/thatthat with12010INwith the12011DTthe fact12012NNfact that12013IN/thatthat mens12014NPmens rea12015NPrea does12016VVZdo not12017RBnot vary12018VVvary from12019INfrom crime12020NNcrime to12021TOto crime12022NNcrime ?12023SENT? So12024RBso if12025INif that12026DTthat was12027VBDbe the12028DTthe understanding12029NNunderstanding of12030INof mens12031NPmens rea12032NPrea ,12033,, that12034WDTthat would12035MDwould apply12036VVapply in12037INin every12038DTevery case12039NNcase and12040CCand there12041EXthere would12042MDwould have12043VHhave to12044TOto be12045VBbe moral12046JJmoral blame12047NNblame worthiness12048NNworthiness in12049INin every12050DTevery case12051NNcase ,12052,, not12053RBnot just12054RBjust those12055DTthose where12056WRBwhere the12057DTthe ...12058:... the12059DTthe ...12060:... the12061DTthe lack12062NNlack of12063INof blame12064NNblame worthiness12065NNworthiness is12066VBZbe attributable12067JJattributable to12068TOto mental12069JJmental ...12070:... to12071TOto a12072DTa mental12073JJmental disorder12074NNdisorder ,12075,, however12076RBhowever that12077DTthat is12078VBZbe defined12079VVNdefine ?12080SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]12081LOC[MS. SCHRUP] If12082INif I12083PPI 'm12084VBPbe understanding12085VVGunderstand your12086PP$your question12087NNquestion ,12088,, Justice12089NPJustice Alito12090NPAlito ,12091,, yes12092UHyes ,12093,, mens12094NPmens rea12095NPrea ,12096,, but12097CCbut mens12098NPmens rea12099NPrea historically12100RBhistorically or12101CCor common12102JJcommon law12103NNlaw intent12104NNintent always12105RBalways contained12106VVDcontain this12107DTthis moral12108JJmoral component12109NNcomponent ,12110,, this12111RBthis ...12112:... [JUSTICE ALITO]12113LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] Then12114RBthen it12115PPit would12116MDwould ...12117:... [MS. SCHRUP]12118LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...12119:... intent12120NNintent to12121TOto harm12122VVharm .12123SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]12124LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...12125:... apply12126VVapply across12127INacross the12128DTthe board12129NNboard .12130SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]12131LOC[MS. SCHRUP] It12132PPit would12133MDwould ,12134,, with12135INwith the12136DTthe exception12137NNexception of12138INof ...12139:... [JUSTICE ALITO]12140LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] It12141PPit would12142MDwould apply12143VVapply ...12144:... [MS. SCHRUP]12145LOC[MS. SCHRUP] ...12146:... perhaps12147RBperhaps ...12148:... [JUSTICE ALITO]12149LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...12150:... to12151TOto the12152DTthe person12153NNperson who12154WPwho said12155VVDsay I12156PPI assassinated12157VVDassassinate this12158DTthis political12159JJpolitical leader12160NNleader because12161INbecause he12162PPhe is12163VBZbe an12164DTan evil12165JJevil person12166NNperson ...12167:... [MS. SCHRUP]12168LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Oh12169NPOh .12170SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]12171LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...12172:... and12173CCand he12174PPhe is12175VBZbe going12176VVGgo to12177TOto do12178VVdo evil12179JJevil things12180NNSthing .12181SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]12182LOC[MS. SCHRUP] No12183NPNo ,12184,, Justice12185NPJustice Alito12186NPAlito ,12187,, because12188INbecause the12189DTthe only12190JJonly people12191NNSpeople that12192WDTthat were12193VBDbe ...12194:... that12195IN/thatthat this12196DTthis has12197VHZhave traditionally12198RBtraditionally been12199VBNbe applied12200VVNapply to12201TOto are12202VBPbe the12203DTthe insane12204JJinsane and12205CCand maybe12206RBmaybe infants12207NNSinfant and12208CCand that12209DTthat 's12210VBZbe what12211WPwhat ...12212:... [JUSTICE ALITO]12213LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] And12214CCand that12215DTthat 's12216VBZbe what12217WPwhat you12218PPyou are12219VBPbe arguing12220VVGargue for12221INfor ,12222,, a12223DTa separate12224JJseparate insanity12225NNinsanity defense12226NNdefense ,12227,, and12228CCand that12229WDTthat was12230VBDbe M'Naghten12231JJM'Naghten .12232SENT. But12233CCbut that12234DTthat 's12235VBZbe inconsistent12236JJinconsistent with12237INwith the12238DTthe historical12239JJhistorical record12240NNrecord as12241INas you12242PPyou ,12243,, yourself12244PPyourself ,12245,, understand12246VVunderstand it12247PPit ,12248,, which12249WDTwhich is12250VBZbe that12251IN/thatthat it12252PPit was12253VBDbe tied12254VVNtie to12255TOto mens12256NPmens rea12257NPrea ,12258,, which12259WDTwhich is12260VBZbe categorical12261JJcategorical ,12262,, applies12263VVZapply in12264INin every12265DTevery single12266JJsingle case12267NNcase .12268SENT. What12269WPWhat ...12270:... what12271WPwhat is12272VBZbe wrong12273JJwrong with12274INwith that12275DTthat ?12276SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]12277LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Our12278PP$our position12279NNposition is12280VBZbe that12281IN/thatthat to12282TOto the12283DTthe extent12284NNextent it12285PPit was12286VBDbe tied12287VVNtie to12288TOto mens12289NPmens rea12290NPrea ,12291,, inherent12292JJinherent in12293INin the12294DTthe notion12295NNnotion of12296INof mens12297NPmens rea12298NPrea was12299VBDbe the12300DTthe ability12301NNability to12302TOto choose12303VVchoose between12304INbetween right12305NNright and12306CCand wrong12307JJwrong .12308SENT. So12309RBso that12310DTthat is12311VBZbe very12312RBvery different12313JJdifferent .12314SENT. That12315DTthat is12316VBZbe very12317RBvery different12318JJdifferent than12319INthan what12320WPwhat Kansas12321NPKansas has12322VHZhave today12323NNtoday ,12324,, which12325WDTwhich has12326VHZhave no12327DTno inquiry12328NNinquiry into12329INinto that12330DTthat .12331SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]12332LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] I12333PPI mean12334VVPmean ,12335,, these12336DTthese 18th12337JJ18th Century12338NNcentury cases12339NNScase that12340WDTthat talk12341VVPtalk about12342INabout moral12343JJmoral capability12344NNcapability or12345CCor lack12346NNlack thereof12347RBthereof in12348INin mens12349NPmens rea12350NPrea in12351INin the12352DTthe same12353JJsame breadth12354NNbreadth are12355VBPbe hard12356JJhard to12357TOto understand12358VVunderstand ,12359,, but12360CCbut you12361PPyou have12362VHPhave to12363TOto take12364VVtake into12365INinto account12366NNaccount ...12367:... may12368MDmay I12369PPI finish12370VVfinish my12371PP$my sentence12372NNsentence ...12373:... [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12374LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Certainly12375RBcertainly .12376SENT. [JUSTICE ALITO]12377LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] ...12378:... Mr12379NPMr .12380SENT. Chief12381NPChief Justice12382NPJustice ?12383SENT? [12384SYM[ LAUGHTER12385NNlaughter ]12386SYM] [JUSTICE ALITO]12387LOC[JUSTICE ALITO] That12388IN/thatthat you12389PPyou have12390VHPhave to12391TOto take12392VVtake into12393INinto account12394NNaccount that12395IN/thatthat people12396NNSpeople ...12397:... that12398IN/thatthat the12399DTthe 18th12400JJ18th Century12401NNcentury and12402CCand early12403JJearly 19th12404JJ19th Century12405NNcentury understanding12406NNunderstanding of12407INof how12408WRBhow the12409DTthe human12410JJhuman mind12411NNmind works12412NNSwork was12413VBDbe very12414RBvery different12415JJdifferent from12416INfrom what12417WPwhat we12418PPwe have12419VHPhave today12420NNtoday .12421SENT. There12422EXthere was12423VBDbe n't12424RBn't even12425RBeven any12426DTany ...12427:... any12428DTany such12429JJsuch thing12430NNthing as12431INas psychiatry12432NNpsychiatry in12433INin 179112434CD@card@ and12435CCand it12436PPit was12437VBDbe in12438INin its12439PP$its infancy12440NNinfancy in12441INin 186812442CD@card@ .12443SENT. Is12444VBZbe that12445IN/thatthat wrong12446JJwrong ?12447SENT? [MS. SCHRUP]12448LOC[MS. SCHRUP] Mr12449NPMr .12450SENT. Chief12451NPChief Justice12452NPJustice ?12453SENT? [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12454LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] You12455PPyou may12456MDmay .12457SENT. [MS. SCHRUP]12458LOC[MS. SCHRUP] I12459PPI want12460VVPwant to12461TOto answer12462VVanswer this12463DTthis succinctly12464RBsuccinctly .12465SENT. It12466PPit 's12467VBZbe not12468RBnot about12469RBabout what12470WPwhat mental12471JJmental illness12472NNillness was12473VBDbe or12474CCor was12475VBDbe n't12476RBn't .12477SENT. It12478PPit 's12479VBZbe about12480RBabout how12481WRBhow we12482PPwe treated12483VVDtreat insane12484JJinsane people12485NNSpeople ,12486,, this12487DTthis narrow12488JJnarrow group12489NNgroup of12490INof them12491PPthem .12492SENT. I12493PPI think12494VVPthink everybody12495NNeverybody knows12496VVZknow who12497WPwho they12498PPthey are12499VBPbe when12500WRBwhen they12501PPthey are12502VBPbe forced12503VVNforce to12504TOto decide12505VVdecide it12506PPit .12507SENT. And12508CCand it12509PPit 's12510VBZbe about12511RBabout not12512RBnot punishing12513VVGpunish people12514NNSpeople who12515WPwho do12516VVPdo n't12517RBn't know12518VVknow right12519RBright from12520INfrom wrong12521JJwrong .12522SENT. Thank12523VVthank you12524PPyou .12525SENT. [CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS]12526LOC[CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS] Thank12527VVthank you12528PPyou ,12529,, counsel12530NNcounsel .12531SENT. The12532DTthe case12533NNcase is12534VBZbe submitted12535VVNsubmit .12536SENT.