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A | Hey, bankless nation. This is our episode debrief episode after the episode with Justin Sun. I don't know what we're gonna title this. David I part. Nowhere to go was interesting. He repeated that line, I have nowhere to go. I don't know how many times that was the most. |
B | The thing I could relate to the most about Justin son, I had nowhere else to go. |
A | Okay. I think he might have meant that in a deeper way than you mean it. All right. He definitely meant that about crypto. Like, if I'm not in crypto, what else am I gonna do with my life, right? And I get that. I resonate with that. He might have meant that, like, geographically. |
B | There was a few freudian slips in there that I thought I was like, haha. That, that double entendre is funny. That was the first one and then the other one was. Vitalik is such a goldmine. Like, yeah, bro, we're all buying each. |
A | He says it with a smile. Dude, he would not stop laughing. When you were trying to get that question, you were trying to get a question in about, like, why did you put yourself poster, your face on a decentralization poster? And he was like, literally cracking up. You could almost not finish your question. |
B | Because he thought that was hilarious. Well, because, you know, he also knows it too. He presented it as like, this was the most viable strategic move for Tron. The blockchain was to put me as its face, attention, economy, attention. And then where, like, the external critiquer of TRon would be like, you're just trying to like, pump your own self image, bro. |
A | Yeah. And he's like, he's like, yeah, I mean, that's what Tron needed to do at that point in time. I wouldn't do it that way now, though. Like, I feel like he has maybe matured as a person, or at least that's the aura he's sending off. |
B | And when you have like a hundred times more eth and Vitalik, and you're probably likely to set foot in inside of the United States. Like, it's not just like I've been choosing to be more humble, it's like I'm, I need to keep my head down. |
A | Yeah, I've got stuff to lose this time, right? Like, I need to. Yes. So it's probably a strategy. Yes. |
B | A humble Eigen lair points farmer just like the rest of us. |
A | Yeah, I think that's going to be a noticeable change of tactics, actually. I'll say on the other side of this. And again, who knows what the intent is, right? Like, I have no idea. Is Justin Sun a good person or not? I don't know. I'm not kind of like, you know, the. The moral person who gets to decide these things, and why is he pivoting away from being bombastic and towards more humility? It could be just the best game. Theoretical decision post. He's made it. I do have to say, though, Tron has some real traction. David, I know I made this point in the episode, but it's not like, compare it to a lot of the hypey things out there. And, like, again, if we're looking at this from a fundamentals perspective and not just a kind of a narrative perspective, you definitely argue that Tron is the most used stable coin chain out there. |
B | I don't even think you can argue it. Like, that's more volume. |
A | Well, that's true. And then you could also. But here's the weird point. You could also argue that, like, $12 billion valuation of TrON is not too bad in relative. Relative to the other assets that are out there. |
B | It's one of those things like, that. Fair. |
A | Yeah. |
B | If it's putting out more, I think it burns like an at more percentage tron than Ethereum does eth. |
A | Like, I'm not, like, I'm not laughing at Tron right now. |
B | Right. |
A | Because it's actually putting numbers on the board. |
B | Right. |
A | It's actually kind of. |
B | Where did the BD come? Was it as simple as. It's a cheap, fast layer, one blockchain and tether. Put a bunch of tether there. And is that why it grew? |
A | Like there's an element? So I watched this Netflix documentary recently. It's called Bitcont. Okay. So I never see crypto documentaries. I have no idea why I went and I lived through this. But it was about. Do you remember there's a 2017 project called. It was called Sentra or something. It's called Sentra, I believe. And what they tried to do was create a crypto visa card that you could spend your crypto basic idea. And it started out, David, as, like, a total copy and paste of another project, copied the white paper, copied the code, and basically from sort of scammers who, like, knew what they were doing going into it. And then they raised a whole bunch of money in the ICO. And post raising that money, they actually got serious about turning this scam into an actual business. And so they hired people and they were, like, going a more legitimate path. Of course, they couldn't pull it off in the end. And this documentary. But they tried at least members of the team tried. It's. It's like they started as some bombastic marketing campaign. They had accidental success, and then they kind of turned it into a real business. And there's. There's an element of Justin sun and Tron's story that. That feels like that, whereas, like, he is now going, like, more legitimate, where he has stumbled into the success somehow and is now becoming more mature. He said that Tron is maturing. |
B | I don't want to excuse any of Justin Sun's past actions, and there are enough past actions that are bad enough. They are so bad, actually, that we can't even raise them on the podcast because it's just, what's the point? What kind of answer are we going to expect? Pumping and dumping tokens? There's, like, backdoor handshakes. Like, him and CZ are previously very close. CZ has kind of the same, like, backside of him that are all kind of very dubious, but also completely unfounded. I don't know the history. There's plenty of articles about this with Justin Son, and so the history of Justin son is so bad where we wouldn't even be able to ask the questions. Cause what's the point? He would just say there's no comment and move on. |
A | And there's also, what I would remind bankless listeners is neither David nor myself are trained journalists. So we're having a conversation with somebody. We are not. Like, he's laughing. |
B | We're laughing. |
A | We're not going through all of the records and trying to uncover whether this person is legit and what he's done in the past. So I just have really no comment on that. I don't know. It's probably the thing. But anyway, where were you going with that? |
B | Asking about Justin son's cease and desist and asking about the plagiarized white paper is, like. It's questions that, like, are interesting and fun, but basically as, like, as far as we can go before, just like, he never signed up for a journalist interview. That's not what we promised him. And so, like, this is kind of the vibe of, like, bankless interviews. Like, this is like, well, yeah, we'll ask the fun, hard questions. |
A | I don't know the facts either. I just haven't done the work. Like, if you're actually a journalist going into this kind of conversation, you have to actually do the due diligence, have a team go through the evidence, like, do the on chain slew thing. Oh, man. We are not a staff to do that. We're not skilled to do that. |
B | It's not as fun for us because that's not what we want to do. And it's not as fun for the guests either. |
A | Yeah. So I don't know if I guess going to this episode, it's not about should we trust Justin's son or not. I don't trust him anymore coming out of this episode, but I will say that I think he is trying to project a, a new era of Tron and Justin sun that is more legitimate. I would not be surprised, David, if he, like, doesn't follow up and actually donate some significant funds to the predetermined guild. I would not be surprised if. I would be surprised if he didn't do that. |
B | Right. I think he is going to do it, and I think he's going to do it because his game, theoretical Eevee for him to have a minorly improved brand with the Ethereum people to keep his head, head down, try and, like, pay his debts to society. How, like, how do you think he has like, 100 times more? Ethan Vitalik has, like, the answer is not great. But now, now he is not in wealth accumulation mode. He is in wealth preservation mode. |
A | Yeah. |
B | And that includes, like, legal and reputational preservation as well. |
A | Yeah, no, I think that's the right read on it, for sure. Yeah. Wow. |
B | I think if we do get Vitalik and Justin on the same pod together, Vitalik will ask a few more piercing questions that aren't journalist questions, still not Vitalik's deal, but are still a little bit more kind of getting to the core of Justin's son. |
A | He's nice, though. |
B | We're kind of coming into the Vitalik Justin son relationship in the same way that we came into the eleazer. And who's the economist? The economist that we had on Post Aliezer, this grabby aliens guy. |
A | Oh, oh. Robin Hansen. |
B | Yeah. There's a history between Justin son and Vitalik that appear like, that spawns before us. And so Vitalik has deeper thoughts about Justin son and has deeper questions, and they're not gonna be about, like, Justin. Why do you pump and dump stuff? It's gonna be more just like, Justin. What is your ideology on the world? I think Vitalik would absolutely bring up the steam example. You know, the steam story. We didn't bring this up in the podcast. Um, uh, Justin sun bought Steam, this, like, decentralized social media platform. |
A | Yes. |
B | Yeah, he bought it. But then the token holders of steam this, like, it was like a decentralized Reddit, and it was actually paying out a meaningful amount of um, like token rewards to content producers. And it was a very interesting experiment in the 2017 to 2018 era. And Justin sun bought it and he bought it with a bunch of tokens. And then, and then he like bought the IP rights, basically. I can't remember what they bought it from the foundation or something. But then the token holders of Steam were like, fuck that, we are forking away Justin Sun's tokens. And they did, and Justin sun lost all of his tokens. And that was how the story ended. And this is like one of the most, like, Vitalik uses his philosophical like, experiment as like a study of legitimacy where like the community determined whether or not Justin sun was the legitimate owner of those tokens. And they said no. |
A | Well, it's just there's so much in the Justin Sun's past that I had almost forgotten about that. Yeah, I know. Vitalik would kind of bring up BitTorrent and released a token. I'm sure that was like a whole pump and dump type thing, right? That was probably, well, like, dude, what? |
B | I don't know, but what if the token is actually up? So like it is a, it is a pump and dump. |
A | Where, where do you place, where do you place Justin on the whole, like d and d, like categorization, right? It's got to be somewhere chaotic, right? It's got to be somewhere between chaotic evil and chaotic neutral, right? It's definitely chaotic pro Justin sundae going to do. Like this is what his history has been going to do. Like whatever is in the best interest of Justin's son, hopefully for some brief moment of time. That could include funding the Ethereum protocol. |
B | Okay. The BitTorrent immediately launched with a $2 billion network. It was down only up until November of 2023, where it was half a billion dollars, and now it's back up to $2 billion. |
A | There have been some moves that have been still Justin sun serving, but also game theoretically, also kind of like the right decision for decentralization. So his example there of what do we do with all of the block space fees that is being thrown out from the tron? Well, we could give it to validators. Okay. But then he said, I don't know if he really runs a validator. He said he didn't. Then he said, people would say that's just going to kind of the elites, the Justin sun kind of cabal. So instead what we did was burnt it for all TRX holders. For all Tron holders. And that is like the most decentralized move, the most credibly neutral move, rich. |
B | Together move, which is kind of crypto. It. |
A | It is. And it's also in the best interest of Justin stun. I think if he's playing a longer term game, like, that's the thing, is, you don't have to be a, quote, unquote, good person, like, highly moral individual. You just have to play the. A long term game of reputation and health of the network. And I think I have seen some Justin sun moves move from short term ism to at least medium to longer. |
B | Termism, zero sum games to positive some games. He's played a decent number of positive sum games in various respects. Dude, he's played a lot of zero sum games. |
A | He's been a main character, and we talk about the fall of main characters. He's been a main character through multiple cycles, and he's still around. |
B | CZ is gone as a rule of thumb. I think if you. The more cycles you last, the more positive some games you must be playing. |
A | Lindy. He's got some lindy to him, because. |
B | If you play negative some games, like you, you eventually, like, crypto, comes to wreck you eventually. Well, like, there are some grifters who. Who come and, like, somehow make it, but, like, they're generally the exception. |
A | Let's, uh, let's hold him to that cease and desist, by the way. So if. If we catch wind of any cease and desist that his legal team is throwing off to anybody in crypto that doesn't deserve it. And basically, I can't imagine a scenario where you deserve getting a cease and desist from. From Tron, Justin's son. We can replay that clip and remind him of the commitment. Remind him of his commitment to play this long term. |
B | Did he make a commitment? He kind of did. The vibe, was it. He never made anything. Like, the vibe was like, yeah. You sure? |
A | All right, so let's talk about how this conversation sort of came to be. And actually going into this conversation is sort of interesting. So their legal team didn't want us to ask a number of things, and some of which we found kind of, like, uninteresting anyway. |
B | Right. |
A | Like Poloniex. |
B | Poloniex, yeah. |
A | They didn't want us to ask about that, and I just. I frankly don't care. It seemed like it was sort of a kind of. I would say a failed acquisition or, like, a not maximized acquisition. This is when Tron acquired, like, a pretty large exchange for the era, like, back in 2017 or 2018. Right. So they didn't want us to talk about that, but we didn't care. I sort of wanted to ask them about why did Circle recently leave Tron? They asked us not to bring that up, and so I was fine in the comments not bringing that up. |
B | I probably don't really know and also don't care because there wasn't that much circle. Circle leaving Tron was, like virtue signaling. |
A | Anyways, I think it's a more interesting question for Jeremy Allaire of why. Hey, circle USCC also coming on the podcast. Yeah. And he's coming on the podcast. So I intend to, uh. We intend to ask him that. So they didn't want to ask that, and they also didn't want us to ask anything with respect to, um. So the SEC is suing Tron, right? So that happened about a year ago, I believe. Like, again, I'm, like, barely, but also. |
B | Like, what questions would we ask? Like, uh, the SEC suing you? What's up? |
A | The SEC is suing Coinbase. Right? You know, like, I like the SEC suing everybody. SEC does not have more legitimacy than Tron in my mind, like, at least with respect to crypto. And that's a sad reflection on the state of the leadership of the SEC. It's not. Cause Tron is somehow virtuous. So those were some of the criteria. They didn't want us to ask about the cease and desist, but we're like, hell no. We're asking about the cease and desist. |
B | They wanted to. We were asking about a very general question about the cease and desist. We only know about the cease and desist to bankless. And they were okay asking about that one. The question that we had was like, I bet you do this for more people, right? And they were like, you don't know that, so you can't ask that. |
A | Well, you asked them that. Do you do this for more people? What else? And they want to, like, I mean, basically, we were not gonna have this conversation if we felt it was too hampered down. We couldn't ask the questions. |
B | We got all of the questions that we wanted to ask, and if we didn't, and if we weren't allowed to, we wouldn't have done the podcast. |
A | Yeah. So I feel. I feel good about where that ended up. So what do you think about this idea of a Justin's son redemption tour? You think that's. |
B | I don't know how I feel about, like, specifically enabling that. The only thing I'm interested in, like, Vitalik has all this, all the information. If he wants to do a podcast with Justin son, he can zero fucking chance that Vitalik will accept any sort of, like, hey, you can or cannot ask this from his lawyers. So it's going to have to be the same social contract where, like, we're just going to go into it and record it without any sort of guardrails. And if you guys don't like it, then, like, we won't publish it. Uh, but, like, Vitalik's also not going to ask, like, sec legal questions. Vitalik's gonna ask, like, philosophy questions. So if that happens because both parties are interested without coercing Vitalik into any of this, then, like, that's super interesting. |
A | If that conversation. |
B | I gotta go press a button on my door. Keep. |
A | Okay, go press the button. I'm. I'm gonna. I'm gonna talk for. For a bit for the bankless nation. David has left his computer. |
B | He's. |
A | He's apparently getting a doorbell. Um, if that conversation happens, I think what's going to happen is David's back. Justin's son is going to bow to sensei. Yes. Oh, for sure. |
B | Well, I mean, he has the opportunity to be legitimized by Vitalik. He's gonna take that also. |
A | But I actually think that, like, Justin sun deeply admires Vitalik. |
B | For sure. |
A | For sure. How can you freaking not? |
B | How can you not. How can you say, I read every single Vitalik blog without, like, that being true? |
A | He's a fanboy. He's a total fan. Huge fanboy. Sees a gold mine there. No question about it. Like, he's super pragmatic, or whatever that is. And he also admires Vidalik, as many of us do, so it'll be. Yeah, that would be an interesting conversation. I don't think Vitalik will do it unless there's a donation. The protocol guild, though. He's got to pay his dues. |
B | Probably not. All right, I gotta run. |
A | All right, I'll see you guys. Bankless nation, this has been the debrief. |
B | Thanks, guys. Bye. |
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