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A | Bankless nation welcome to this exploration of Jitto. Jitto is a Solana validator client, a staked soul token called Jito Soul, and an mev optimization engine, all built into a single software suite, which we call Jitto. Recently, the Jito airdrop shook the entire crypto industry as $200 million worth of Jito is distributed to over 10,000 addresses on Solana, and the Solana ecosystem seems to have turned a new page ever since. Notably, fees on Solana have started to emerge. Changing the game when it comes to Solana, economics in Jito has found itself right at the center of this conversation. Today on the show, we have Lucas from the Jito team to walk us through the basics and the nuances of the Jito system. How does it work? How is it similar to Ethereum? How is it different? Bankless nation? I've been doing some of my Solana homework. I think you're going to learn a ton about Solana and Judo in this conversation, as well as where Solana is in its development arc. A quick moment of reflection and thoughts before we get into this episode today with Lucas from Judo. I think the judo conversation is a gateway into a broader conversation about Solana. Judo is a Solana app that relates deeply to the Solana protocol itself, and the emergence of alternative Solana clients like Jito and fire dancer spawns the conversation about Solana governance right at the same time that Jito airdrops its governance token to govern overdose. To me, the Solana conversation is potentially at the beginning of a very interesting arc when it comes to Solana economics and Solana governance. I think it's pretty easy to say today that Solana has captured the attention and energy of these low level systems engineers and system designers, hardware people, and as a result, has produced a very well engineered crypto system. And with the launch of Jitto and other developments, Solana is moving into needing new character archetypes to enter the scene. There is an airdrop season happening on Solana right now where Solana apps are launching their governance tokens, and the emergence of multiple Solana clients will require human meats based conversations to make non breaking upgrades with each other. In the ethereum world, we have the Ethereum Magicians forums and the all core devs call in order to produce rough consensus as to how Ethereum upgrades, Solana will also need to establish some sort of system and process to make this happen for itself. Solana is entering the very messy world of governance, something that all successful layer ones must enter in order to truly maximize their decentralization and robustness. This is a rite of passage that very few layer ones ever get through. Solana has gotten to that point, and now it needs to get through that point. And as a podcast, maxi myself, I am absolutely here to host these interesting and challenging conversations, and probably the best way that I can play any role at all in the growth of the Solana project. Now that Solana is entering conversations that I feel familiar with, with, and so with that context and preamble out of the way, let's go ahead and get right into the episode with Lucas from Judo. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible, especially Kraken, our preferred crypto exchange for 2023 and 2024. If you do not have an account with Kraken, consider clicking the link in the show notes to getting started with Kraken today. Bankless nation. I'm super excited to introduce you to Lucas, aka Buffalo, on Twitter. He is the co founder and CEO of Jitto Labs, which recently had an airdrop inside of the Solana ecosystem that more or less changed the game for the entire crypto landscape. Lucas, welcome to Bankless. |
B | Hey, thanks for having me. Excited to be here and talk more about Jito and Solana. |
A | Yeah, there's a number of different ways that I think Jito nerd snipes people. One is from the mev side of things. One is from the Solana latency hardware networking side of things. Another one is just from the economics side of things. And I think that's the way that I approach to Gito is like the economics conversation. But of course, all of these Venn diagrams overlap. I think we're going to approach each one of these angles one by one here on the episode today. But I kind of want to give a take and then a question about what I saw the Jito airdrop from the external perspective, from the outside perspective, because the Jito airdrop seemed to be something larger than itself. You know, it was an airdrop for an app when we've seen these before, but it wasn't really a typical airdrop. It kind of represented something larger than just a drop for a Solana app. It really turned into a symbol for the Solana community at large. And there's this, like, before and after the Jito drop moment for Solana and after Judo. If we have before judo and after judo. After Jito is marked by a large uptick in Solana. New addresses, new, like, new highs, and Solana volume, new tvls, like a showing of Solana fees. And now there kind of seems to be a post moment for the postjito drop. That's at least how I interpret it from the external perspective. I kind of just want to ask, what was this moment like for you? What was it like to be on the inside? |
B | Yeah, it was super exciting, very overwhelming. We didn't expect it to go this well. I think it went much better than we could have ever anticipated. I think there's a lot of people excited about participating in judo governance, and there's a lot of other protocols that are looking to decentralize very soon on Solana. And so I think, you know, it got a lot of people excited about Solana. There was a lot of good press there. And now you have a lot of people coming over to Solana from other ecosystems, and, you know, interacting with a lot of the Dapps on Solana and really just realizing, like, how good of a network it is, how fast it is, how cheap it is. And I just love to see people coming over and trying it out. |
A | So one of the reasons, I think, why the Jito drop was so significant is because Jitto isn't just an app on Solana in the same way that Lido is not just an app on Ethereum. Like, these things relate to the protocols that they stand upon. And so that's one of the reasons why I think this airdrop mark made such a significant mark on the Solana ecosystem and also the broader ecosystem as well. So maybe. Maybe we can just start at the very beginning, like, what is Jito? And why is it so important for the Solana ecosystem? |
B | Yeah. So Jito Labs builds infrastructure to efficiently extract Mev on Solana. There's a lot of spam and arbitrage transactions that are failing on Solana. And we predicted this would happen back in 2021 and wanted to work on solving it. So Jito Labs built a lot of mev infrastructure, created the Jito Solana client, which enables the efficient mev extraction, built the Jito block engine, which is kind of like a block builder equivalent, like a beaver build or Rsync and stuff like that on Ethereum, to kind of efficiently extract mev. And then also built a lot of systems to make sure that the MEV is distributed stakers. I think that's super important. Validators can choose how much they want to distribute to their stakers. And also, I'm also a contributor to Jitto network, which is a liquid staking protocol on Solana. So Jitto network is, you know, operates the Jito soul liquid staking token so. |
A | The Jito soul liquid staking token for the Ethereum, familiar people out there, that's like the staked ETH from Lido or the Reth from rocket pool. But the interesting thing about Jito is that it's. That is stacked upon a client. And so in Ethereum, we have things like prism from prismatic labs, we have lighthouse nimbus, we have these different clients that run Ethereum, that run Ethereum consensus. And that is also what Jitto is. Jitto is also a client, along with a staked soul token called Jito Soul. And then it's also this mev extraction optimization engine. So it's like these three core products all kind of stock stacked on top of each other, right? |
B | Yeah. So, yeah. Anyone? It's a little. The staking on Solana is a little different than Ethereum. So anyone can run the Jito Solana client. Actually, like currently, today, there's like 46% of Solana stake running the client, over 300 validators, and roughly $14 billion of sole stake to the client and stake pool. Because Solana is delegated, state has delegated staking stake pools can delegate to any validator that they want. So there's, there's validators and that are running g to Solana that don't have any Gdasul stake, and there's validators that do have Jito Soul stake. There's also, I think, every liquid staking token on Solana delegates some percentage of their pool to the Jita Solana client as well. So it's really just like an open source, permissionless validator client that anyone can run. |
A | Can you talk about just the synergies between this tech stack? Because some parts of it just make a lot of elegant sense there, like having a client that also is Mev optimized, relating to a staked soul token. All of these things kind of makes sense. Can you put these pieces together for us? |
B | Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of overlap. I think liquid staking tokens are a really good opportunity to decentralize stake on Solana. That can be geographic decentralization, client decentralization, and all the other types of decentralization that existed. I think Jito Sol does pretty well at that. Helps bootstrap the growth of the Jito Solana client, and also a lot of the validators that Jito Soul stakes to in the stake pool are sharing the mev with stakers up until a few weeks ago is a very small amount of MEV. But with the recent uptick in trading activity on Solana that has massively increased. I think the, I was looking at the numbers earlier today, and basically over 50% of all MEv extracted by the system has happened in the last two weeks, and it's been live for a year now. So there's been, like, a massive, massive uptick in trading. There's a lot of improvements on the block engine that we can dive into later. |
A | Can we stop and unpack why the existence of a staked Sol token adds to the decentralization of Solana? Can you unpack that? |
B | Yeah. So, typically what stakers will do is they will go to their phantom wallet or soulflare, some other wallet on Solana. They go through the validators. They want to stake their soul. They'll just choose one validator to stake that to. They're staking that to one validator. It's not spread across a network of validators. Judas soul kind of improves that. And basically, when you deposit Sol into the stake pool program that Judo Sol runs on, there is an algorithm running that will kind of look at all the different validators that are available to delegate to, and will delegate to those validators according to some performance and decentralization metric. So instead of your Sol, like, if you have 100 sol staking it to one validator, now you have 100 Sol, there's 100 validators, one soul per validator. And those validators are spread across the entire world. So anywhere from, like, California, New York, Germany, Tokyo, Singapore. It's kind of spread all over the world. So it increases the decentralization of the network from a geographic standpoint, and then also helps with some of the uptime that you, it, it helps reduce, uh, it helps reduce the potential for, like, downtime invalidators and losing staking rewards as well. |
A | Okay, so if I just have Sol in my phantom wallet, my Solana wallet, I could just delegate that soul to a single validator, and then I would start to get some of the issuance of Sol and some of the fees of, of Solana, just because that's what that validator provides me, which is, which is a step towards decentralization. It's better than just me having vanilla soul in my wallet and not using that at all. But what you're saying is that if you just simply have this gedo system, you can actually not really have to be locked into one single validator. And instead, the geeto system is a little bit. Again, we're probably going to have to use a lot of ethereum metaphors here, because that's what the bankless audience is familiar with, in the same way that if you buy Lido staked Eth, you are actually spreading out your ether to 32 node operators, and eventually that is destined to be, according to the light of roadmap, that's supposed to be permissionless. So the same kind of way, like rather than just picking one validator and having that be locked into that one validator and that one validator accrue a lot of soul, jitto spreads it out to many, many, many an open set of potential validators. And it also solves a simultaneous problem of having non homogeneous soul. Right. And so if I stake to one validator, my soul is stuck to that one validator. But if I put my soul in Jitto, I get jittos soul back in the same way I get staked eth back from Lido. And so it both spreads it out to many, many validators, and I get a token back in return that can go back into the Solana defi ecosystem. Is this all correct? |
B | Yes, correct. And yeah, theres an algorithm thats currently running and that ill transition to stake net, which I think well dive into in a bit, assuming that the Cheeto governance wants to switch over to Stakenet, and basically that will allow the protocol to, if it sees a validator is performing poorly, or maybe you have validators that are moving around and there's too much stake in one region or something like that, then you can start to move that stake around. If you want to support the decentralization of Solana and also have a very high performing validator set that your souls stake to, then the Jito soul stake pool kind of just takes care of a lot of that for you. |
A | I think if we were talking about a standard staking pool system on Solana, everything that we've talked about thus far is more or less like table stakes. Like you have a system for spreading out Sol so that no one validator is enshrined and you kind of load balance based on metrics to optimize for things. This is all kind of like table stakes, and we haven't actually yet added in the MEV component as well. I think that's really kind of the thing that makes jitto go from table stakes to something unique and special to Solana. And so you talked about it a little bit, mev extraction optimization. Why is that important? Not just from being a good product, but being good for Solana, the ecosystem? |
B | Yeah, we ran some numbers close to a year ago. I think the numbers last I checked were pretty similar, but 98% of arbitrage transactions on Solana fail, and there's roughly 56% of compute wasted executing these failed arbitrages. So if you go on a Solana block explorer and you look at the transactions, you'll see all the Dexs and a ton of failures. That has a downstream impact on users. If you want to interact with the chain and the blocks are consistently full, and they're just spending time executing this entire transaction and then rolling back the state, that's not really the best, in my opinion, not the best use of block space. I think you want to see a high success rate of transactions. And so the Jito client and the block engine kind of helps mitigate some of that. And essentially, a lot of these people that are spamming the arbitrages, they're trying to order transactions. So you send a trade, they'll monitor it, see if there's an arbitrage between two dexs, and then they'll fire off one or two or three trades that try to capture that arbitrage. And using the Jito Solana client and the Jito block engine, those searchers can bundle those trades together. So they actually execute back to back inside the block. And it's actually, if you know about proof of history, you've heard about it. It's actually right next to each other in the proof of history tick chain. So it's literally like the fastest that you can capture it by the Solana protocol rules. It's just instantly captured. So the goal there is we want to try to enable this efficient ordering so that people aren't spamming and try to free up some of the block space. And then also there's the validator and staker economics as well. |
A | Can we go into why there is so much spam and so many failed transactions on Solana? And this is just a product of Solana being such a high throughput, low latency chain. Correct. Can you talk about why there is this incentive for traders and arbitrageurs to send out so many transactions? |
B | I think the one thing is that it's really cheap for transactions. So I think it's like a hundredth of a penny per transaction. So there's not really, like, you know, if someone has a failed transaction on Solana, it's not going to cost them a lot of, compared to Ethereum, where if you have a failed transaction, then you might end up paying 30, $5100, whatever the gas price is. |
A | Right. $100 to try and get $5 of revenue. So it really costs you to make that failed transaction. |
B | Yeah, also, the price of the transactions is so low that there's just so many microscopic arbitrages available. So the price of this, as I mentioned earlier, the price of a transaction is like 100th of a penny. So, basically, if there's any profit over 100th of a penny available on Solana, an arbitrager is going to capture that. So there's just a massive amount of arbitrage transactions. Only the first one is going to succeed. The rest are going to fail. And so I think that's a lot of the reason why. I think there's a. There's some more engineering related things as well. There's a lot of work going into the scheduler to make it have less jitter and make it be more deterministic. So when you set a priority fee, it actually lands in the block where you expect it to. I think another big thing that core engineers and the fire dancer team and us and people on Twitter and a lot of people are talking about some other type of. You have the carrot, you need the stick. So how do you kind of throttle those transactions? Probably through some dynamic base fee. I don't think copying EIP 1559 and copy pasting it onto Solana is the same thing. I think there's unique things that. Solana is a unique architecture. So I think there's some tweaks that you can make to EIP 1559. And, yeah, I think I. That will be. That's, uh, that's an area of research that I'm pretty excited about. Um, and we're starting to see kind of more people think about that and. |
A | Work on that for the reasoning behind why so many of these transactions are failing. Is it because I'm an arbitrage, uh, arbitrager, and I really just want my transaction in. And because it's so low cost, I'll send out 10,000 transactions, and only one of them will work. And then. Then nine 9999 will. Will fail? Or is it that, like, there's so many Dex arbors out there that there's 10,000 of them, and everyone's sending out one transaction, but only one of them gets it? What is the actual reason? And then, of course, why are they failing? Well, because these conflict after these transactions conflict with each other after one of them succeeds. What is the actual reasoning as to why there's so many failed transactions? |
B | Yeah, I think you hit both points. There's a lot of arbitrageurs on Solana. I think there's a few hundred at this point, or at least there's a few hundred signers TBD on how many entities are running those signers. So there's a lot of arbitrageurs. I think arbitrageurs will typically send their transaction more than once. I wouldn't say as high as 10,000 times, maybe like a single digit number of times. And basically only the first arbitrage will win. And everyone's seeing the arbitrage opportunity pop up at different times, depending on the, your proximity to the leader that produced that arbitrage. Network propagation, your own code speed. One searcher might see it ten milliseconds after it happened. Another might see it 15, another might see it 20, another might see it 200 milliseconds later. Everyone's seeing it at different times, everyone's firing off trades at different times. There's different propagation latencies associated with all that. And so you'll have the arbitrage show up, the first person will capture it, and then you'll see a ton of failures. And then also going back to the point of the fees are so low that there's so many microscopic arbitrages. Last time I looked, I think the average profit on an arbitrage was like a 10th of a penny. So there's just a ton of super micro arbitrages. I think, you know, it is a good thing. I think its a good thing that theres so many microscopic arbitrages. I think that it results in better prices. You have all these bots that are constantly rebouncing prices compared to Ethereum, where you basically are going to arbitrage if you can offset the price of gas. So theres pools that sit around that could be arbitrage, but the gas price is too high on Solana gas prices so low that theres a ton of these arbitrages prices are in line. Theres just the issue of the failed transactions that I think base fees and maybe some other protocol changes will help fix. |
A | How does Jitto produce fewer failed transactions? |
B | Yeah, so we provide searchers opportunity to bundle those transactions. |
A | Cant they just do that themselves? Can they just bundle up a transaction and send it to them? Just to vanilla Solana. |
B | So the vanilla salon and validator doesn't support bundles. Another thing is that the, yeah, so the bundles are feature specific to the judo Solana validator. And so yeah, another thing is that there's like a very, very short lived mempool in the block engine. Basically, this lets searchers see these opportunities before theyre going to happen. They can simulate and predict whats going to happen. Basically, you send a trade, they will see that predict the arbitrage and bundle the users, trade in their arbitrage, send it to our system. The geolabs block engine will simulate it and basically choose the highest payer, uh, for that arbitrage. Um, I think, you know, there's, we're also running in the block engine. We're running a lot of different, uh, auctions at the same time because you, um, if you've ever interacted with Solana, you probably see like if you go to the block explorer, you'll see all these accounts. And you know, for someone coming from Ethereum, you're like, what the heck? Like, what are all these accounts doing? Um, so when you build a Solana transaction, you have to specify that account state that you're reading to or writing from up front. So you'll say, oh, I want to trade on this ork on market at this public key. And here's my token account. And this is going to be written to this I'm only reading from, and so on. And so our block engine will actually separate all these bundles and all these trades into different auctions based on the read and write flags for each account. So we can actually run an auction. We're on Ethereum. You're kind of like auctioning off the entire block. And your price that you pay is relative. There's just basically single auction running in the block engine. We're actually looking to see what's being read and written to, and then you can pull them apart into disjoint sets and then you can simulate all of them. So you're actually like, if there's a lot of mev on some orca pool or nfts and stuff like that, it won't affect radium or Phoenix. That's something we spent a lot of time engineering and working on. And I think it's been working pretty well. |
A | Yeah, that seems like a pretty big engineering lift. Let me try and put that into Ethereum words so that the Ethereum people can interpret that for the people who aren't familiar with Solana. So Solana has this local fee markets, right? And this, I think, is downstream of that conversation. So like, if this was in Ethereum, it would be something along the lines of an application or a transaction that is going to change some state of Ethereum. And that state is an arbitrage transaction between Uniswap and Sushiswap and zero x, for example, or like matcha, the transaction itself would label in the front of the transaction. I am going to engage and change the state of Uniswap and sushiswap and zero x, and I'm only going to change the state of these contracts. And things I'm not going to touch is like everything else, like Aave, Makerdao, opensea. I'm only touching these three things that I've specified, and then it unlocks those for state changes, and then the computation happens, because that leaves room for other transactions to talk to Aave and not have to be worried about any transaction that is arbing the Dexs, for example. And so what you're saying, Lucas, is that in the Jito client, when you guys are running these auctions, you can actually create separate auctions for space in the block, in the Solana block for highest bidders that are segregated per activity. And so there's probably some optimization, some algorithm, because there's going to be like some Venn diagram of semi overlapping transactions. Some are touching the same contracts, some are not touching the same contracts. And so it's a little bit of tetrising going on to make sure that you can create a very high value block with all of these transactions. But the point is that there's multiple auctions for multiple different slots, depending on what that transaction is doing. And then the, what Jitto is, is like an optimization for making sure that the highest value transactions get filtered up and allowed to be in the very first slot, because that's what they're paying for. And then it starts to, like, fill in from there. But the cool thing is, is that it gets to fill in multiple places at the same time. Because if my transaction is touching uniswap, and I really want to pay a very high price for that, somebody else's transaction can arb aave, and those two won't conflict with each other. They can both take the number one slot because they're only touching separate contracts. Did I explain all of that correctly? |
B | Yeah, that was perfect. I couldn't have explained it any better. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's kind of like the. Yeah, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's kind of like the parallel fee markets on Solana, basically kind of applying a similar concept in the block engine. I think getting into that a little bit more, I think it's maybe not even like the Aave contract. It would be like, oh, I'm going to touch this specific pool inside Aave. Or if I'm talking to uniswap, it's like I'm only talking to, like, the staked ETh USDC pool at this address, and it's not the entire contract, so we can actually run. Orca is a popular Amm on Solana. We could basically run an auction in parallel for every single pool on orca, as long as they're not sharing, as long as there's not a overlap state there. |
A | Right. And all the point of this is to say that once Jitto is done doing its work, it's produced the highest value block possible that it could produce, because it has. It's like a pre processing layer for Solana. Right. It almost is kind of like, in a way that I know the engineers of Solana don't like my more imagination based metaphors, but I'll try and do that anyways. Which is like, Cheeto is a little bit of a mempool for Solana in that it processes transactions and orders them in this nice, orderly way before it actually, like, puts a block into the chain. Is that, like, a fair metaphor? |
B | Yeah, for sure. It's kind of like a. It's like an optimization layer for validators to build more efficient blocks. I think the one thing is, on Ethereum with PBS, you have the builders are actually building the entire block. And so you run into some issues there, like, a lot of the potential censorship issues where Jitto is, we're not actually building the entire block. We're building pieces of it. So it's kind of like, I think enshrined PBS is looking at partial block building inside there. So you can think of it like that, where we're building the really profitable pieces of the block as efficiently as possible. And then the validator software is handling the rest of the stuff. |
A | And the reason why I want to spend so much time on this is, a, because it's interesting and worth noting, but also b, because it's kind of the tip of the geo stack. Like, what is Jitto? It is delegated staking. It is a staked soul token. Judo soul. But it really, again, like I said, really, the shining part of judo is the mev optimization and high value block building aspect of it. Can you talk about how that circuits back into the value of the jito soul token? Because to me, like, if my understanding of Jito's correctly, like, judo will live or die by the value of jito soul, right? Like, that is, like, the pinnacle of the judo system. Judo soul is supposed to be the most efficient, uh, soul asset to own natively on solana. Can you talk about. Can you just complete the circle for us. How does all of the things we've talked about go into increasing the value of Jito soul? |
B | Yeah, so Jito soul is a reward bearing liquid staking token, so on. I think on ethereum, like lido, it's a rebase, so they will kind of credit you more staked eth when you receive the rewards. On solana, all of the liquid staking tokens are reward bearing. So the price of Jito soul and liquid staking tokens as a whole go up relative to the price of soul. So you stick your soul into the stake pool, you get back Jito soul. That soul represents the soul that you initially deposited, plus accrued inflation and Mev rewards. The goal is any stake pool can delegate to the judo Solana Valdar client. The hope is that MEV becomes a main revenue driver for Solana, so that liquid staking tokens can start to realize some of these rewards in the price of the liquid staking token relative to Sol. So essentially as opportunity to add more rewards to Jito soul, and it ultimately impacts the apy of liquid staking tokens on Solana. |
A | People run the jitto client because it optimizes MeV extraction on their behalf. Right. I have enough technical chops to be able to download a client and run it, but I do not have enough technical chops to be able to run an MEV botanical roughly about where my line is. Uh, and so, like, for me as an individual, if I could run a Solana validator, I could just run the Jito client, and I could, like, raise significantly the bar for me to be able to engage in MEV extraction. Maybe I'm not at the tip top of the Solana ecosystem, but, like, it's a way higher than I would ever be as, like, a semi technical individual. And so that, that's kind of the motivation and the, and the democratizing access that judo has or the democratizing power that Jitto has for the Solana ecosystem. Correct. |
B | So, yeah, we want to make sure that, like, everyone can have opportunity to do this and access to it. Clients open source, it's permissionless. Anyone can connect to the block engine and start receiving these bundles. And there's kind of this marketplace of searchers and traders that are available that we, we kind of, like Jito Labs will kind of handle that side and talk to searchers and market makers and figure out what features do they want? How can we make your transactions more successful? Just make it a better experience. So we have this marketplace that we built up over time with these traders and market makers and validators can basically get access to that through the block engine. There's block engines all over the world right now. There's four. There will likely be more next year that will go into more decentralized parts of the world, Singapore and other parts of Europe, that don't have a lot of stake right now. And the goal is to basically give access to this to anyone. So if you're a validator, you don't really need to care about this stuff. You can just run the Jita Solana client hook into the block engine and start receiving these profitable bundles and help make the network run more efficiently. |
A | Can we talk about the way that the economics of Jito impacts Solana? And so maybe we can start with how much of the MEV is being able to be pocketed by Arbors versus how much of that MEV is getting sent into the Jito soul token. So what's that? Pie split? There's a bunch of value being created here eventually, value being divvied up, how much goes into the Jito soul, and how much is left being pocketed by arbitrageurs? |
B | So, yeah, basically anyone can run the Jito Solana validator client. The way it works is that when there is a tip that's sent to the block engine, we try to optimize the tip for a given set of state that is running the auction. That tip will then get paid out to these programs. The program will kind of split the fee there. So right now, Jito Labs takes 5%. That's to cover infrastructure and engineering costs, you know, to be transparent. It's not really close to that right now, but we're betting on more trading activity coming to Solana and things getting more efficient. So Geo allows will take 5%. The other 95% goes to a, what we call a tip distribution account. And essentially the tips will aggregate there for an entire epoch. You can think of it like a validators MEV piggy bank. So, for the epoch, the MEV is accumulating in this piggy bank, which is unique to that validator for that epoch. And essentially what happens is at the end of the epoch, there is a process that runs off chain, which will distribute, it'll calculate a Merkle tree and a Merkle route. Basically, it doesn't MEV airdrop. So the Merkle route will get uploaded to this account, and then there's a bunch of transactions sent out. Right now it's around 400,000 transactions every two or three days that gets sent out and pays out. The MEV to the validator, and then all of these stake accounts on that validator, so validators can set their own commission rate. I think if you go to, there's a retool dashboard I can share after, but it will show all of the validators running the client and their MEV commission rate. The Merkle route contains the information to break that piece off that goes to the validator. The rest of it goes to the stake accounts for liquid staking tokens that are delegating to these validators. The stake pool has, it manages a bunch of stake accounts. So what happens is the pool has the pool, and then there's 100 or more stake accounts that are sitting on these validators. So in the last step I was describing, where the MEV is distributed to stake accounts is basically the stake pool will receive the MEV in that stake account, and that's pro rata to its share of stake on that validator. The MEV gets sent there, it's just a soul, and then the pool can basically collect that and restake it, and then it compounds that. The, the mev that goes there, the stake pools have what they call an epoch fee, and this is basically a fee that goes to the treasury. So if you go to gov dot Jito.net work, there's a fee account that has Jito soul on it, and that's basically 4% of inflation and mev rewards. So that's kind of how, that's the super high level picture, and then how it flows back to the treasury, and then it also gets auto compounded back into the protocol as well. |
A | Okay, so that was four 5% to judo labs, 4% to the judo treasury. And those two numbers are correct. |
B | Yeah. So the 4% to the judo treasury is just the 5% to Jito labs is on all mev, and then the 4% to the treasury is just on the soul that the Jito soul stake pool manages that portion of mev. |
A | Understood. Okay. And then the large majority is just sent to either the Jito soul or validators who run the Jito client. Correct. |
B | So majority, I guess the majority of it gets sent to the validators, these stake accounts on the validator. And if the GSL stake pool is staking to that validator, then it will receive it in that stake account, which basically funnels back up into the pool. So it's not like, I guess, to the Gito soul protocol is not like today. It's not earning an unfair amount of mev compared to everyone else. It's basically equalized between everyone okay, so. |
A | With the geo client and the mev optimization and building the block, how so? I guess the question I really want to know is, what is the value capture difference between just, like, staking and deli, or delegated staking your soul to a validator versus holding judo soul, because judo soul captures some of the mev. Correct. So, like, how. How much, I guess, is it more advantageous to hold judo soul, and how much more value do you accrue doing that versus just holding normally staked? I sol. |
B | So, yeah, I think the, the yield is pretty similar between the two. So if you go to, like, Solana compass or something like that, the yield is currently roughly around, you know, 6.86.9%, pretty similar to staking to normal validators. I think normal validators are maybe a little bit higher because there's not the 4% fee, but you get some benefits as well to liquid staking. So, you know, you can. Similar to, like, if you. If you run your own validator on Ethereum, you might have or a little bit more yield, but there's downsides to that. So, with Jito Soul, you have a liquidity, and you don't have to worry about the downtime and all that. Okay. |
A | So you actually make less money holding Jito Sol due to the 4% fee that you talked about earlier than you would if you had just staked your Solana directly to a validator. But then the nice thing is that you can go and use your Jito soul inside of Jito inside of Solana defi, which if you can somehow find a way to get more than 4% value out of that, then all of a sudden, you're in the green, correct? |
B | Correct. Yeah. There's a lot of exciting opportunities going on in Solana defi, and not financial advice, but there's certainly ways to use that Jito soul and other liquid staking tokens to kind of get higher yield. |
A | Okay. And since the Jito drop, like I kind of said at the beginning, the activity in Solana has just jumped in a very, very big way, and fees on Solana have started to actually show up. Does that impact the economics of Jito soul, or is there kind of like, a wall where that doesn't really. The fees and mev opportunities on Solana, do those permeate into Jito soul? Very much? |
B | Yeah, we're definitely seeing the beginning of it. I think it's kind of the first inning. So, yeah, the MeV system has made, I think, 50 or over 50% of all fees, and Mev have been made in the last two weeks compared to the previous year. So there's been a lot more trading activity. I think the interesting thing is that the priority fee on Solana, that has provided pretty good economics for validators. But the priority fee isn't actually passed on to stakers. And so stickers never see if without Jito, they're, you know, there's the validators earning those priority fees. Those priority fees can be significant. It's pretty volatile. Depending on the trading activity and what bots are doing with the MEV, you're actually, the stakers are actually able to receive some of the MEV. So I think we're kind of in the first inning. I don't, I don't feel comfortable saying like what type of boost it will provide to yield. I think there's a lot that can change, but I do think that that potential is there in the future. |
A | Right? I guess, yeah. I guess I'm wrapping my head around the fact that just these economics between Ethereum and Solana are just fundamentally different at the transaction level, because Ethereum is all about passing value down to eth stakers, because it is the widest, largest, most accessible and most decentralized part of the Ethereum blockchain transaction supply chain. So if you can like prevent MEV arbors, if the gas that they pay gets passed, if the searchers bid into the block builders who bid into the stakers, well, then the stakers are ultimately the people that get it. And so when there's more gas fees, stakers get more yield. But it sounds like that's just not the pattern that exists in Solana. |
B | Yeah. So there's, I guess there's a few ways that it passes on to ethereum stakers. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a while since I looked at the ETH economics in detail. Um, but you know, there's, there's EIP 1559 and that burns the, the base fee. It's dynamic based on usage. |
A | Right. And that, that goes to everyone, not just stakers, that goes to just eth as an asset. |
B | And then you have the, um, I think they, they call them the priority. Is it the priority fee or the tip? Yeah, there's the tip. So yeah, the tip goes to the stakers or basically the stake on that validator. So yeah, it's a little different on Solana, the base fee, 50% of it gets burned, 50% goes to the validator operator. They're static on Solana at 5000 lamports. And then there's the priority fee as well, which 50% of that gets burned and 50% goes to the validator operator. |
A | Oh, okay. So, wait, so is there really any difference between the economics of a base fee versus the economics of a priority fee on Solana, other than, like, one is required and the other one is just gets you higher in the list today? |
B | No, I think that needs to change. I think the fact that the priority fee is burned, I think, is one of the shortcomings in the protocol, but I think that's pretty easy to fix. I think priority fees have the incentive to. They can potentially incentivize out of band payment. And if I'm a validator, hey, I want you to pay me. You can pay me through the system where I only get 50% of it, or you can pay me through this other system where I get 100% of it. Which one are you going to choose? And so I think priority fee, I imagine, I don't want to speak for the core engineers or the foundation or anything, but I think that will probably get changed pretty soon here to where the validator keeps 100% of the priority fee? |
A | Well, to me, that is exciting, because, like I said at the start of this episode, I think the economics question, the economics conversation of Jito, is the most interesting one. And I think the most interesting thing about Ethereum was the arc of its economics over time. Like, I got into Ethereum when the economic, the monetary policy was five. Ether was issued per block, and that was it. And then we got to watch it go down to three, and then we watched it go down to two, and then we saw EIP 1559 become merged, and then we saw proof of stake happen, and it was, like, one of the most fascinating stories that I think was just ever to, like, unfold in the crypto space. And so if I. You're telling me that there is, like, a bunch of conversations about the future economics of Seoul, I certainly think that that's a pretty fascinating conversation. Where do those conversations get held? What are the state of these conversations? If people like me are interested in following along with those conversations? Like, what would I tap into in order to do that? |
B | Yeah, there's a lot of conversations are happening in discord, in the. There's a Solana tech discord. There's some happening in telegram. It's kind of. It's decentralized. Pretty decentralized right now. So there's a lot of conversations happening in a lot of different places. I think, ultimately, people are trying to kind of get back to the forum as, like, a single place to discuss these ideas. So you're seeing. I think we'll start to see that happen pretty soon, as these ideas materialize into more concrete ideas and implementations. Another place that you're seeing these happen is there's a. There's a SIMD repo, it's a Solana improvement proposal, or Solana improvement document repository, and you're starting to see some. That's the place for these large protocol changes that need to be coordinated between a lot of different stakeholders. We're starting to see more conversation happen there. If you look up the solana in the SIMD repo, there's a ton of discussion in there. It's kind of an alternative path to some type of dynamic fees to charge users and bots. So, yeah, there's some conversation happening there, but, yeah, I think there's no system is perfect in its economics, at least at the beginning. And I think there's a ton of flexibility in the Solana protocol. We were talking about the different accounts that you have to specify upfront that you're going to modify, and you can run a lot of these transactions in parallel. So there's potentially some ideas are to run an EIP type mechanism on each account. Maybe you run it per program. There's a lot of flexibility. I think it's going to be. Yeah, yeah. So there's going to be a. There's going to be a large opportunity to, like, figure this out. And I think, you know, it's going to be like herding cats for a little bit. But I'm pretty confident the community is open to change, and I think Solana, one of its strengths is taking feedback and implementing it pretty fast. I. And I think we'll see that happen, hopefully in 2024. |
A | I think with that bit of conversation right there, we start to open up the rabbit hole of Solana governance, because now Solana governance is a conversation because there's newer clients of Solana. And when there are multiple clients of Solana, all of a sudden what Solana is is no longer determined by one single client. Hence, because there's multiple of them. And so who says what Solana is is now a governance conversation? Uh, but I want to leave that at the very end of this podcast in order to get there. I actually want to talk about the decentralization of Jito, because that is a microcosm of the decentralization and governance of Solana. So we'll have to start with. With Jitto first. What is the long term plan for the decentralization of Jito. |
B | Yeah, so the, the Jito foundation just released the governance token. JTO allows the token holders to participate in governance. And the Judah network, as we've kind of gone over, has its hands in a lot of things. And I'm pretty excited to see people participate in governance here. Right now it's the governance controls the stake pool. So there's some fees associated that governance can vote in. Maybe governance wants to drop fees, maybe they want to lower fees. You can put these proposals up at forum dot Jito.net work and get some input there. 240 million JTO tokens that governance controls that can be used in any way that token holders please. And there's a few other parameters as well, I think probably saying a lot about stake net as well. Stake net will be the way that, assuming that governance votes it in, will be the way that the Jito soul stake pool runs. And there's some parameters in there that because it's an open source delegation strategy, token holders can actually change the way that the stake pool runs. And it all happens on chain an open source. |
A | Let's unpack stakenet really quick. An open source delegation strategy, what is that and why is that important infrastructure for Jito? |
B | Yeah, I think it will be like the most assuming that the Jito token holders and governance vote to kind of transfer the running of Jito sole stake pool to stake net, I think it will be the most decentralized stake pool in existence. Basically what stake net is an open source delegation strategy that runs on Solana. Basically anyone can contribute to running the stake pool if it delegates that authority to Stakenet. I think today the data filming, we just open sourced a piece of Stakenet, which is the first component is the validator history program. Basically, the validator history program is using Solana as a database for validator performance metrics, which I don't think has ever been done before. So basically you can see how well a validator is voting their history of commission. You can see when they're changing their commission rates, how well they voted in the past. You can see what version of client they're running, you can see the client type, you could see Solana labs, Jito, Solana when fire dancers out, or the zig client that will be stored in there as well. There's 512 epochs worth of data, which is several years of data. This data started getting collected on September. There's actually a few months of data in there already. This is one piece of the program. There's a lot of other features that I look forward to contributors contributing to, like, block production quality. There's this big issue or challenge of how do you figure out where a validator is located in the world? And yeah, there's a bunch of other cool things I'm sure people will come up with to add to Stakenet. And basically, this is like the source of truth for all validators on Solana. Then there's going to be another program which will be released in the near future. And basically it will reference that data to operate the stake pool. All of the delegation logic and parameters for controlling stake pools will live on Solana. Basically, you can write math. It's like, hey, I want to look back six months. How did this validator do to, how to do compare to everyone else? So you can score all these validators on chain, and then you can write the logic to basically say, oh, like, I have this stake delegated this validator, and this one delegated to this validator. This one's doing better. So stakenet can basically take the stake off that validator and move it to a different one. You can expand the size of the stake pool. I think that the possibilities are kind of endless, but I think the main goal is like putting all the delegation logic onto Solana, using Solana as this like, database for validator history. And essentially, yeah, just putting all the logic on chain so that Judas soul and other stake pools, if they adopt it, can live forever. |
A | The way I kind of see Stakenet, from what you described, is kind of like the brain of Jito. Uh, where you're, you're, since Solana is a, uh, you know, a system that you can put data on, you're taking all the data about the state or health of Solana validators that are part of the Jito system, and putting that on chain so that stakenet can consume that data, evaluate the Jito validators, and then load balance, or, you know, determine who gets what stake as determined by the stake net algorithm. Um, yearn is a system in defi, in ethereum, defi that optimizes for yield with different strategies. And it kind of sounds like that's kind of similar. It can be kind of similar where we can like, load up a algorithm, load up some strategy into stake net, that load balances across all judo validators into an optimized fashion. And what does it mean to be optimized? Well, that's up for judo governance to determine. Is that a fair way to articulate this? |
B | That's perfect way to articulate it. Basically, all the data that Steakna uses, except for one, I think there's one piece that isn't available on chain. All of it is copied from backing up. I guess a lot of the data that we're referencing is in what's called a vote account. A vote account lives on chain. If you remember, there's been some stupid fud in the past from like the Solana non vote versus voting transactions. You know, people are saying a lot of transactions are vote transactions. Well, yeah, votes are transactions. And the state of Howell a validators voting is actually stored on chain and those transactions reference that. So what stakenet is doing is basically there's a, there's keepers that anyone can run. When you crank this program, it will basically copy the vote account into Stakenet. Stakenet is basically checkpointing this data periodically and storing historical analysis of it. It's not like there's a centralized party that you need to trust to upload this data. You can look at the code, it's all open source, it's copying this data on chain. There's a few things that aren't available on chain, and for that we're actually using data available in gossip. So all the solana nodes are gossiping with each other. They're not actually transactions, they're just kind of like packets. And in order to gossip those transactions, every validator is signing the transaction with their key. And basically you can say, oh, Lucas's node said that their ip is this, or they're running this version and we're actually taking that gossip data and uploading it on chain and signature verifying it on chain. So all the data in stakenet is either signature verified or it's copied from the actual voting accounts on chain. So it's very high quality, trusted data. And yeah, basically if the Jito token holders want to adopt stake net, they can, and all those data is available on chain. So I think my personal opinion and vision for this is people start to explore this data more and they look at the, there would be a current v one delegation strategy where it's like, okay, this is a first pass at what this looks like. It's very simple, reliable, will work, but there's going to be opportunities to tweak that. And all that data is available on chain. I think this is going to encourage people to get more involved in governance. Take a look at this data. There's probably going to be some data science people that are looking at all this data and being like, oh, what if we tweak the algorithm a little bit this much, we can expect judo's sole apy to increase this much. Or what if we look at the locations of all these validators and tweak the locations of all of them to spread it out? I think it just opens up a lot more possibilities and a lot more people to get involved in the operation and governance of the Jito soul stake pool. |
A | And the reason why we like this product, this component of the Jito system, Stakenet, is that because we prefer things to be governed by code, we have this code, this open source code system, to be a manager of the Jitto tech stack. And the only way that humans get involved is when, like, somebody is writing an alternative version of the code, and then they show everyone else in the judo ecosystem, like, yo, guys, look at this code that I wrote. It's better than the one that we currently have. I propose that we merge it and that is the new code that governs, but ultimately it's code that governs. And humans only update things when they decide that they have better code for sure. |
B | Yeah, I think that's super important because all stakenet lives on chain. I think you can have stakenet interact directly with governance, so you can build your own governance platform or potentially have a reference realms and actually have it be the stake pool can be directly controlled by governance, all on chain, minimal human coordination there. I think that's like a really cool idea. So, yeah, I'm super excited about it. |
A | Would you say that that's the main governance, um, lever or vector inside of the Jito system, or just. Or is that just a pretty big part of it? But there's other things that are relevant to Jito governance as well that we need to discuss. |
B | Um, I think that that will be a main piece of governance moving into 2024. I think there is some more flexibility with stake pool fees. Um, so token holders can kind of look and do more fee math if they want to, and, um, you know, figure out if the fees need to go up or down. I think there's also the 240 million judo tokens that if you go to gov dot Jito.net work, you can see those, they're in the treasury. They're controlled directly by token holders. So token holders can kind of find creative use cases for those tokens, put up proposals, get them to pass, and kind of take the, take the control Jito network into their own hands. |
A | All right. And now Jito is a part of Solana governance at large. So there's judo governance governing Jito, but then there's Jito that has its share of Solana governance. Lucas, can you talk about just, like, why Solana needs governance and where Solana is in its, like, arc of its own internal governance conversations. What, for somebody who's not totally familiar with the state of things, what should people know? |
B | Yeah, I think up until this point, I think there's been a few parties involved with governance on Solana. And similar to ethereum, you kind of have. I don't think, as far as I know, there hasn't been any ethereum votes. There's this soft governance going on where they have core devs and the client teams and the stake pools are involved, maybe not directly so much yet. Maybe in the future, there's a ton of stakeholders involved. I think on Solana that's starting to grow, or you're starting to see more stakeholders get involved. I think it'll play out pretty similar, probably in the second inning of getting to more decentralized governance right now. So I think the community is starting to take more control. I think the client teams are starting to get more involved, like Jito Labs and fire dancer team. There's been kind of, some of the independent validators are starting to push for governance more. There's actually a vote on Solana in October, and then I think you might have been there, but there was, at breakpoint, there was a community conference that was held that was kind of talking about governance. So I think there's definitely a lot of room for improvement there. We're definitely starting to see more progress on that front, and I think that will continue to develop into 2024 and beyond. |
A | Yeah, I was at that one panel about Solana governance at breakpoint, and it seemed just pretty obvious to me that these conversations, people weren't used to having these conversations, and they didn't know how to think about these conversations. And so it's just, I think the Solana community at large, learning about a vector of what these crypto economic systems are, that it's kind of, like, ignored for a while, because, like, Solana, there's, like, all the hardware engineers, all the low level, low level engineers. And so, like, these governance conversations are like these new things that everyone's kind of like, what is these? What are these conversations? What do we do with these conversations? And so it kind of seems like everyone's kind of. Kind of figuring it out as they go. Is that kind of the vibe? |
B | Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely. I think it's. It's still pretty early in Solana governance. I think there's a lot of opportunities to learn from other ecosystems here on what has worked and what hasn't worked. There's a lot of governance experiments going on, and then there's some pretty long running governance procedures on things like Ethereum and cosmos, or lack of governance in some cases. Hopefully, the Solana community can use those as case studies. If you take a business class or something, there's all those case study documents that you read. It's like, oh, this is why this business succeeded or failed. And here's some key learnings there. I think that's super important. I don't think there's no need to reinvent the wheel here, but I think that there's a lot of experiments that have kind of run or a lack of experience experiments that have happened. You can kind of see what happens there. And I think that I'm hoping the Solana community and the stakeholders involved will kind of look at that as a reference. |
A | Well, Lucas, I've learned a lot in this episode, so thanks for coming on bankless and teaching me and a lot of the listeners all about judo and Solana, just, like, zooming all the way back out. I think most people ask these questions at the very beginning, but I like to ask them at the very end. Um, what got you started with Jitto and of all of the ecosystems that you could spend your time on, like, you could have been on Ethereum, you could have been in Ethereum layer twos, you could have been on Avalanche, you could have been on Cosmos, but you chose to build Jito on Solana. Why? |
B | I really resonated with Anatoly and the team's vision on Solana. I come from a computer engineering and firmware background, so working in, like, pretty low level c c code on, like, very resource constrained devices. I love making code run faster. I love making code use less resources. Its like what I went to school for. I did that for several years and worked in robotics before working at JiTo. And I think that this high performance state machine and trying to use memory and the resources available the most efficiently as possible really resonated with me. I dove into my first foray into Solana, I think it was the March 2021 hackathon, and built a project there. And really just kind of like, I did Mev on Ethereum before starting Jito, and that was kind of my first introduction into programming and interfacing with chains. Learned a ton there and then switching over to Solana. It was pretty rough at first. There wasn't that much documentation, but I really just fell in love with the process of, you know, they used to call it. Chewing glass, I think they kind of moved away from that at this point, but the chewing glass meme used to be a real thing, and I love that. And just kind of interacting with the chain. From a programming standpoint, it was just super cool. So, yeah, pretty excited to see the Solana community lean into that. I think they're really diving head first into that high performance efficiency with fire dancer, I think. Super excited to see how that pans out in 2024 and beyond. |
A | Do you have any perspectives as to what the Ethereum community or outside of Solana communities or, I don't know, the eth Maxy podcasters, what they don't understand about Solana or what they misrepresent about Solana the most? |
B | I think the centralization narrative of Solana, I think that's massively overblown. I think the. There's, like, thousands of validators running in Solana all across the world. And so I think from, like, a server and, like, geopolitical and geographical standpoint, the network is extremely decentralized. I think that. My personal opinion is that, like, running nodes at home is a little overrated. Um, I think that running in data centers is probably fine as long as they're kind of, like, spread throughout the world. Um, you know, maybe with fire dancer and more efficiencies in the protocol, you will be able to run Solana at home. But I think, more importantly, like, this, like, ultra fast, super fair, super cheap state machine is, like, the most important goal here to, like, really unlock access to the. These, uh, this technology and these services to anyone. And so I think those are some things. I think maybe there's some disagreements there with the Ethereum community from Solana people. |
A | Sure. Interestingly enough, I'm actually about to have Anatolia on the podcast later today, in about an hour, actually. And I'm going to ask him the same question, but I'll ask it to you as well. But it'll be a question in the form of a monologue, if you. You will, so spare me. Nick Carter. Once upon a time, on an episode I was listening to on his podcast, this was right after OFAC banned tornado cash. And Nick Carter is a famous bitcoiner, and he said a line that kind of stuck with me is that this kind of shows that Ethereum is actually the spearhead of the crypto movement and trumping bitcoin, because bitcoin didn't really have this. It didn't offend the nation state in this way, because you can't do tornado cash on bitcoin. And if Ethereum is pushing up against, like, the treasury and Fincen and all of these things, it kind of is proof that Ethereum is doing something right, because it is, it has teeth, right? It has claws. And then after, as a result of that, OfAC banning of tornado cash addresses, there was a big movement inside of the Ethereum blockchain supply chain when it comes to censoring tornado cash transactions. And then, like, websites like mevwatch.com, i think, spun up. And you could see, like, the red and the green of the blocks that were being proposed that were banning OFAC transactions or weren't. And for a while, the number of censoring blocks crept up to, like, 80% to 85%. And then it's been down only ever since. It's somewhere around, like, 33% now. Um, and I think that conversation has spawned a lot of. That is one of the most impactful things that's happened in crypto to this day, because it's really about, like, oh, crypto is getting so large that is going up against the largest powers that exist. And I think when we can go back and forth about how decentralized Solana is, but I don't think. I think the real test will be like, does Solana produce something that offends the nation state to that level of degree? And I think using that as an acid test is like, well, it's great if we have geographically distributed Solana validators, but what happens when some tornado cash alternative look alike is built on Solana? And the Solana ecosystem has the massive amounts of success that all the Solana community wants for it? And if it does have that success, it will attract the Lazarus group, it will attract hacks, it will attract North Korea playing around trying to do the things they've been doing on Ethereum for the last four years. And so I think my question to you is, do you think the Solana community, the Solana tech stack, is ready for that? |
B | I think it is. I think there's. There's a lot of. There's a lot of validators that are outside of the US. And so, you know, they validators can kind of make their own choices. You know, people have different opinions on whether they should respect the rules of the us government or not, based on if they're in the US or not, or other personal beliefs. And people can have that. I think that there's enough stake outside of the US to where if it was an issue, then people might have a little more flexibility. I think a lot of this also revolves around the way that PBS has kind of shaped up, especially with meV, and you kind of got around to this in the MEV transaction supply chain. This is actually one of the major learnings that we had. And I think maybe, I don't know if flashbots predicted this or not, but it's been a really good learning experience in the way that our system works in the architecture. And because we're actually building partial blocks on Jito, the Jito block engine doesn't have the same issue, and it's kind of up to validators if they want to make that decision or not. So I think from that angle, that was like, a pretty powerful learning experience. I think outside of that, I think it will definitely stress the network. I think anything of that magnitude, ultimately, you want to be a super successful network. And like you said, like, or what Nick said, it's like a certain point, you become so successful that you start attracting attention from the government. And so that, you know, if Solana is successful, it will have to deal with these issues, and I think it'll be pretty hard. But as we were, like, mentioning earlier, I think there's, in the governance conversation, I think there's a lot to learn from other ecosystems here, like Ethereum. And so I think, you know, hopefully the Solana community can take some of those learnings and apply it to any hardship that it has in the future. |
A | Well, Lucas, I wouldn't wish the ire of OFAC on any ecosystem, but also I kind of do, because it means that ecosystem is doing extremely, extremely well, and it is kind of like the final boss. And the more chains that we can go battling the final boss, the better. So in some weird, sick way, I do wish the Solana ecosystem well in its endeavors in order to get to that point. Uh, Lucas, thanks for coming on bankless today. Just one last question for you. There's jitto metrics and dashboards and maybe solana metrics and dashboards. If listeners want to just look at Geeto, what websites can they go to to go check this thing out? Like, what websites or metrics or dashboards do you frequent on a daily basis? |
B | Yeah, so one of my favorites is the Jitto bundle Explorer. So that's explorer Jitto. WTF? You can see all of the bundles that searchers and traders are submitting. Super cool to see. Like, you know, it's doing over 100,000 bundles a day, so there's a lot of cool information in there. Another one is there's some dune dashboards. Can share the link with you after there's someone that works at Dune, Andrew Hong. He's been helping out a lot on the Solana dashboards, and so there's some jito soul specific ones. And then another favorite one that recently popped up is the 21 co released a dashboard on Solana key metrics. So it shows the volume and the price and number of user transactions and fee burns and all that stuff. So, yeah, big fan of doing in the Jito bundle Explorer. And then actually, I guess now that we're filming this, I think it'll be released later this week. There's actually a Jito stakenet, kind of like a v one Ui. So you can go to. Let me see here. I think it's judo.net work. I want to say it's stake net, and you can view a lot of the stake net stats there. |
A | Well, Lucas, we will get all of those links in the show notes for the bank listeners. Lucas, thanks for coming on, my man. I learned a lot, and like I said, the economics conversation around Solana, I think, is going to be a very interesting one to track, especially this bull market. While Solana gets new levels of stress testing in terms of just numbers of transactions and users and all this kind of stuff. So it's a sign of success, it's a sign of health. Lucas, you've been putting in the work throughout the bear market, so congratulations on getting to this point, and I wish you well, my man. |
B | Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. |
A | Bankless nation, you know the deal. Crypto is risky, Ethereum is risky, Solana is risky. Tech. Stacks of this nature, they're all risky. You can lose what you put in. We are headed west. This is a frontier. It's not for everyone. But we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. |
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